How to handle the Machado, Givens, Schoop situation next year

[RZNJ]

This is a good problem to have. We have Machado, Givens, and Schoop, with Machado and Givens drafted as SS's and Schoop starting his career out there as well. Now it seems that Givens is already being shifted to 2B, either in defference to Machado or because of his own shortcomings at SS. It think is optimal that the O's keep all three in the middle infield as long as possible, even if there is the thought that one could move to 3B or the OF in the future. The value is highest in the middle infield. Logic dictates that all three should play at Delmarva next year. Schoop played well enough at Bluefield, that Aberdeen should be skipped. A highly rated HS prospect like Machado normally starts at full season low A. Givens has only played a handful of games, obviously needs games in full season but hasn't played enough to dictate a move to Frederick. I would also throw Garabez Rosa into the mix. A fringy prospect because of atrocious plate discipline but still just 21 next season, a natural SS, and some hitting talent. In a perfect world, he would return to Delmarva and hopefully learn some patience before advancing.

All possible solutions have Machado playing SS at Delmarva since he'll be 18 when the season starts and he's the last one the O's would move off of SS.

Solution #1.

Promote Rosa to SS at Frederick.

Play Schoop at 3B, Machado at SS, and Givens at 2B at Delmarva.

The only think I don't like about this, is moving Schoop from the middle infield so soon.


Solution #2:

Frederick: Schoop at SS
Delmrava: Rosa 3B, Machado SS, Givens 2B

I don't like rushing Schoop to Frederick but his contact skills suggest that he won't be overmatched. Rosa get less reps at SS but he needs to get his offense in gear to be a real prospect anyway. He can always move back to SS.


Solution #3:

Frecerick: Rosa SS, Givens 2B
Delmarva: Machado SS, Schoop 2B

Age wise, this makes some sense. Machado (18), and Schoop (19) playing sidie by side at Delmarva.

Givens will be 21 next season. Frederick would be a huge jump for someone with so few games under his belt. Still, he looked great at Aberdeen and this would put him back on the fast track if he can handle it. Rosa stays at his natural position.


Footnote: Also factoring into this, is Tyler Kelly a fringy, but sleeper prospect who plays 2B and 3B and is ticketed for Frederick. His bat plays better at 2B right now. Here's a guy who shows good playte discipline, showed a little pop last year, and will be 22 this year at Frederick. At this point, I think he defers to the other players mentioned and moves to make room for one of them.

[JTrea81]

What about Connor Narron?

[bandy75]

What about Connor Narron?

Probably goes back to gulf coast league, Aberdeen at the most.

[Crazysilver03]

I think you are taking Rosa too seriously as a prospect at this point. I saw him a few times this past season and he wasn't very impressive. He simply becomes a back-up/utility man and takes a back seat to the bigger prospects. Just like Florimon will do if/when one of them gets promoted to Bowie this year, hopefully Machado.

[Stotle]

It will be interesting to see 1) what BAL does, and 2) how these players perform.

[Arthur_Bryant]

It will be interesting to see 1) what BAL does, and 2) how these players perform.

Givens at Frederick to start the season would be very interesting.

That's all I'll say.

[RZNJ]

I think you are taking Rosa too seriously as a prospect at this point. I saw him a few times this past season and he wasn't very impressive. He simply becomes a back-up/utility man and takes a back seat to the bigger prospects. Just like Florimon will do if/when one of them gets promoted to Bowie this year, hopefully Machado.

I referred to him as a fringy prospect with atrocious plate discipline. I also said that in a perfect world, that he should repeat Delmarva. In no way did I suggest that he should block one of the other guys. So where am I taking him too seriously as a prospect? On the contrary I said he'd need to improve his plate discipline to become a "real prospect".


These are comments on Rosa cut from my post and pasted together.


I would also throw Garabez Rosa into the mix. A fringy prospect because of atrocious plate discipline but still just 21 next season, a natural SS, and some hitting talent. In a perfect world, he would return to Delmarva and hopefully learn some patience before advancing.
Rosa get less reps at SS but he needs to get his offense in gear to be a real prospect anyway. He can always move back to SS.

[Crazysilver03]

I referred to him as a fringy prospect with atrocious plate discipline. I also said that in a perfect world, that he should repeat Delmarva. In no way did I suggest that he should block one of the other guys. So where am I taking him too seriously as a prospect? On the contrary I said he'd need to improve his plate discipline to become a "real prospect".


These are comments on Rosa cut from my post and pasted together.

I brought those comments up because he simply shouldn't be involved in the conversations concerning the other three prospects. You put them where they need to go and then put Rosa where ever there is space.

[RZNJ]

I brought those comments up because he simply shouldn't be involved in the conversations concerning the other three prospects. You put them where they need to go and then put Rosa where ever there is space.

Agreed 100% and I don't think my post suggested anything different.

[Crazysilver03]

Agreed 100% and I don't think my post suggested anything different.

I freely admit I didn't read the majority of your post and just saw your three scenarios and thought it was odd to list Rosa at any given position.

[Tony-OH]

Probably goes back to gulf coast league, Aberdeen at the most.

I heard there are some that want to see Narron get a full season in at Aberdeen. Unless he gets a ton of work on his swing this winter, he'll be over matched in the Sally League in my opinion.

[KarlofDelaware]

Will Lingo of BaseballAmerica, during the chat on the Orioles, guessed the Delmarva shortstop abundance situation would work out as follows:
Rosa to Frederick
Machado plays SS at Delmarva
Givens is the Shorebird 2nd baseman
Shoop starts at Aberdeen

[Moose Milligan]

How about thinking outside the box and seeing if we can send off Machado to be instructed and developed in another farm system to ensure that we don't boof the pooch with him.

Am I joking? You be the judge.

[Arthur_Bryant]

Will Lingo of BaseballAmerica, during the chat on the Orioles, guessed the Delmarva shortstop abundance situation would work out as follows:
Rosa to Frederick
Machado plays SS at Delmarva
Givens is the Shorebird 2nd baseman
Shoop starts at Aberdeen

It'll be determined mostly by how they look in the spring, but I bet that if Schoop looks ready for full-season ball, he'll play full-season ball. I'm impressed with how aggressive they have been lately in moving players who look like they're ready to step up.

[RZNJ]

How about thinking outside the box and seeing if we can send off Machado to be instructed and developed in another farm system to ensure that we don't boof the pooch with him.

Am I joking? You be the judge.

For your sake, I can only hope that you are.

[ThisIsOurHouse]

Givens at Frederick to start the season would be very interesting.

That's all I'll say.

Avery and Hoes performed very well at Frederick last year, no reason Givens can't in my opinion.

[RZNJ]

Avery and Hoes performed very well at Frederick last year, no reason Givens can't in my opinion.

I don't think it's a no brainer that Givens would perform well at Frederick but you can make an argument why he might. As you say, with Avery in particular, you had a player with poor plate discipline, whom many considered raw (many still do). The other side of the argument is that both Avery and Hoes had a complete season of Low A ball under there belts which better prepared them for High A ball. Pretty sure we'll see Machado and Givens forming the DP combination at Delmarva though. I'd hate to see Schoop held back as I think he's clearly ready for full season ball. I think Schoop either plays 3B at Delmarva or SS at Frederick.

[QBsILLEST1]

I dunno, rather than push Givens, we should make sure what we saw last year is forreal. I too am excited about him, but I am beginning to feel the enthusiasm needs to be slightly tempered, or rather we need to be a bit more cautious with out evaluations of Givens. I say Givens at 2B, Machado at SS and Schoop at 3B to start the year in Delmarva. I don't think there is that big of a difference between defensive values between 2B and 3B.......

[DrungoHazewood]

How about thinking outside the box and seeing if we can send off Machado to be instructed and developed in another farm system to ensure that we don't boof the pooch with him.

Am I joking? You be the judge.


For your sake, I can only hope that you are.

I was going to suggest this, half-jokingly, then I see you already did! In soccer this is commonplace, it's call a loan agreement. If a promising player is having trouble getting regular playing time (and this is common because most pro soccer teams just have one main youth/developmental side) they loan him out to another team, often in a lower-level league. But sometimes in the same league, or same classification. US players in MLS, which runs a schedule that doesn't completely coincide with most of the rest of the world, are often loaned out to European sides during the MLS offseason. Landon Donovan was loaned to Everton this past winter/spring.

So, not that the O's would ever do this, but a really outside-the-box situation would be to loan one of these guys to the Mexican League, or maybe the Japanese Ni-Gun (minor) leagues, or maybe Taiwan or Korea. After a fixed period of time they'd come back, the O's playing time situation would be resolved, everyone could play the position they really want to, and they'd get a great experience.

I could see a team like the Red Sox trying this. But the next time the O's are on the cutting edge it might be the first.

[Tony-OH]

Here's how I think it's going to work out:

Delmarva: Machado-SS, Schoop - 2B, Narron -3B
Frederick: Givens-3B Rosa-SS

[Moose Milligan]

I was going to suggest this, half-jokingly, then I see you already did! In soccer this is commonplace, it's call a loan agreement. If a promising player is having trouble getting regular playing time (and this is common because most pro soccer teams just have one main youth/developmental side) they loan him out to another team, often in a lower-level league. But sometimes in the same league, or same classification. US players in MLS, which runs a schedule that doesn't completely coincide with most of the rest of the world, are often loaned out to European sides during the MLS offseason. Landon Donovan was loaned to Everton this past winter/spring.

So, not that the O's would ever do this, but a really outside-the-box situation would be to loan one of these guys to the Mexican League, or maybe the Japanese Ni-Gun (minor) leagues, or maybe Taiwan or Korea. After a fixed period of time they'd come back, the O's playing time situation would be resolved, everyone could play the position they really want to, and they'd get a great experience.

I could see a team like the Red Sox trying this. But the next time the O's are on the cutting edge it might be the first.

Good stuff. I also thought they did this in the minor leagues back in the day.

Is it too much to ask for first round draft picks with high price tags to go play winter ball in Mexico? I know the competition probably isn't THAT great, but there are some major league players down there and they'd be getting at bats and be ahead of the game going into the season.

Seems like players don't do that anymore unless they have a South American background.

[Ruzious]

How about thinking outside the box and seeing if we can send off Machado to be instructed and developed in another farm system to ensure that we don't boof the pooch with him.

Am I joking? You be the judge.
I'd like an arrangement like that - except for Schoop rather than Machado. You know how bad it would look sending your top prospect somewhere else to develop - doing that with Machado would send horrible messages. But theoretically - doing it with Schoop makes sense if the O's want to keep him as a SS for another year and find it logistically difficult in their own system.

[Crazysilver03]

I heard there are some that want to see Narron get a full season in at Aberdeen. Unless he gets a ton of work on his swing this winter, he'll be over matched in the Sally League in my opinion.


Here's how I think it's going to work out:

Delmarva: Machado-SS, Schoop - 2B, Narron -3B
Frederick: Givens-3B Rosa-SS

So you think Narron still ends up going to Delmarva even though the scouts you asked think he needs to go too Aberdeen.

[bird watcher]

I was going to suggest this, half-jokingly, then I see you already did! In soccer this is commonplace, it's call a loan agreement. If a promising player is having trouble getting regular playing time (and this is common because most pro soccer teams just have one main youth/developmental side) they loan him out to another team, often in a lower-level league. But sometimes in the same league, or same classification. US players in MLS, which runs a schedule that doesn't completely coincide with most of the rest of the world, are often loaned out to European sides during the MLS offseason. Landon Donovan was loaned to Everton this past winter/spring.

So, not that the O's would ever do this, but a really outside-the-box situation would be to loan one of these guys to the Mexican League, or maybe the Japanese Ni-Gun (minor) leagues, or maybe Taiwan or Korea. After a fixed period of time they'd come back, the O's playing time situation would be resolved, everyone could play the position they really want to, and they'd get a great experience.

I could see a team like the Red Sox trying this. But the next time the O's are on the cutting edge it might be the first.

The coaching/experience a US soccer player would get in Europe would be on par or better than what they would get here in the US. I don't know that the same could be said for minor league baseball?
Sure they are playing the game and at the position we want but who is teaching them? Do we send our coaches?

[DrungoHazewood]

The coaching/experience a US soccer player would get in Europe would be on par or better than what they would get here in the US. I don't know that the same could be said for minor league baseball?
Sure they are playing the game and at the position we want but who is teaching them? Do we send our coaches?

Obviously it depends on the specifics of where the player is going, and where he would have ended up in the O's system. You'd have to be careful to not loan them out to an awful team in a two-bit league. But we are talking about an Oriole organization that develops position players only slightly more often than it develops goalies, and some of the possible loan destinations (Japan, especially) are known for their more rigorous, regimented, hands-on approach to training. Even in the Japanese majors you have well-paid stars doing daily calisthenics, infield drills, batting practice, etc.

I'd be more worried about an O's farmhand going to Japan for a year and then being embarrassed at the lack of training upon returning to Frederick or Bowie.

[Tony-OH]

So you think Narron still ends up going to Delmarva even though the scouts you asked think he needs to go too Aberdeen.

Narron has his supporters and they seem to think he needs at bats and giving him a full-season at Delmarva is the way to go. John Stockstill is much more aggressive than his brother was in promoting players and he's told me that he feels playing time, regardless of what level is the most important thing for a player to improve.

Spring training will have an effect of course so nothing is set in stone,but I would not be surprised to see Narron start off at Delmarva next year even though he barely looked like he belonged in the GCL this year. BTW, my first quote meant to say a full season at Delmarva, not Aberdeen. Most of the scouts I know think he needs to be at Aberdeen at best next year.

[blazer]

Narron has his supporters and they seem to think he needs at bats and giving him a full-season at Delmarva is the way to go. John Stockstill is much more aggressive than his brother was in promoting players and he's told me that he feels playing time, regardless of what level is the most important thing for a player to improve.

Spring training will have an effect of course so nothing is set in stone,but I would not be surprised to see Narron start off at Delmarva next year even though he barely looked like he belonged in the GCL this year. BTW, my first quote meant to say a full season at Delmarva, not Aberdeen. Most of the scouts I know think he needs to be at Aberdeen at best next year.

Pushing Narron to Delmarva may be an interesting way of going about things. Even if he struggles all year, he can always repeat Delmarva the following year. 2 years at Delmarva may be more valuable than a 1/2 year at Aberdeen and 1 year at Delmarva, as long as the player is mentally able to handle struggling in the likelihood that happens.

Tony, on a separate note, when should we expect to see the 31-50 list?

[Jammer7]

Here's how I think it's going to work out:

Delmarva: Machado-SS, Schoop - 2B, Narron -3B
Frederick: Givens-3B Rosa-SS

I can see the logic in that. I would agree that PT is the most important aspect of player development. Why have an organizational guy play 3B unimpressively when you can get the experience for your young talented players. If you spend the money to bring them in, you have to play them. Young arms are different as you likely need to condition, refine mechanics, secondary pitches and build arm strength.

Narron is a ML manager's son, he should have the intangibles to be anble to handle the jump in competition and expectation.

On another note, with all of the talk of Frederick and Delamrva, what about Bowie? Does Florimon get another shot there? Did Miclat do enough to earn a promotion to Norfolk? Hopefully, Miclat is hanging with Brian Roberts this off season working on staying quick and lean...and getting back to lining the ball from gap to gap.

[QBsILLEST1]

I can see the logic in that. I would agree that PT is the most important aspect of player development. Why have an organizational guy play 3B unimpressively when you can get the experience for your young talented players. If you spend the money to bring them in, you have to play them. Young arms are different as you likely need to condition, refine mechanics, secondary pitches and build arm strength.

Narron is a ML manager's son, he should have the intangibles to be anble to handle the jump in competition and expectation.

On another note, with all of the talk of Frederick and Delamrva, what about Bowie? Does Florimon get another shot there? Did Miclat do enough to earn a promotion to Norfolk? Hopefully, Miclat is hanging with Brian Roberts this off season working on staying quick and lean...and getting back to lining the ball from gap to gap.

Narron apparently has strong intangibles, but that doesn't mean that we should stick him in Delmarva to struggle. IMO he needs to stay in SS ball and how he looks at extended ST will dictate where he goes, but regardless of his level, I think step #1 should be to get him in some sort of a groove to gain some confidence and let him go from there......

And I am pretty sure we see Miclat in Norfolk this year at some point, but me being a bit more conservative, I'd have him go back to Bowie to begin with, but I wouldn't be surprised to see John Stockstill have him start in Norfolk after hitting pretty well in the AFL this year.

[Crazysilver03]

Here's how I think it's going to work out:

Delmarva: Machado-SS, Schoop - 2B, Narron -3B
Frederick: Givens-3B Rosa-SS

At Frederick, why would you keep Rosa at SS and move Givens to 3B?

[thundercleetz]

I like the idea of Givens in Frederick a lot. Although I would like to see him try and stick in the middle infield a little longer before going to 3B, especially if Rosa is the SS. I thought Rosa was a guy that was going to move off of SS soon.

[Sanfran327]

Which guy has the best overall defense at shortstop? IMO, and this might be crazy/stupid, I'd try to keep that guy at short, then shift Machado over to 3b and let him gain a little weight.

That is, of course, assuming that all three guys are MLB-caliber prospects and that they will all contribute in Baltimore for a significant amount of time post Brian Roberts.

[TGO]

Which guy has the best overall defense at shortstop? IMO, and this might be crazy/stupid, I'd try to keep that guy at short, then shift Machado over to 3b and let him gain a little weight.

That is, of course, assuming that all three guys are MLB-caliber prospects and that they will all contribute in Baltimore for a significant amount of time post Brian Roberts.

None of the other guys has anywhere near Machado's talent. Machado stays at SS for at least two seasons IMO before you decide where he'll play in the majors.

[Tony-OH]

Which guy has the best overall defense at shortstop? IMO, and this might be crazy/stupid, I'd try to keep that guy at short, then shift Machado over to 3b and let him gain a little weight.

That is, of course, assuming that all three guys are MLB-caliber prospects and that they will all contribute in Baltimore for a significant amount of time post Brian Roberts.

Machado is the best defensive shortstop in the group and haw the best chance to stick from what I've heard. I haven't seen Schoop or Givens in a game yet defensively.

[Catch 8]

Is it too much to ask for first round draft picks with high price tags to go play winter ball in Mexico?

Too dangerous in Mexico these days. I do not want Machado over there. Keep him in a safe house.

[RVAbird]

Which guy has the best overall defense at shortstop? IMO, and this might be crazy/stupid, I'd try to keep that guy at short, then shift Machado over to 3b and let him gain a little weight.

That is, of course, assuming that all three guys are MLB-caliber prospects and that they will all contribute in Baltimore for a significant amount of time post Brian Roberts.

Not only is Machado likely the best defensive shortstop of the group, he's also more valuable as a 15-20 HR shortstop than he is as a 25 HR third baseman.

Reports of his power were overblown, IMO. He'll never be a big power bat. Think Derek Jeter power if things turn out well.

His contact skills, bat speed and bat control, however, are legit. He profiles as an ideal number 2 or 3 hitter if things go well.

The second point you bring up is, in my opinion, the other reason we should not be moving Machado around. There's a good chance that none of Givens, Schoop or any of the others becomes a ML regular. It would be foolish to move Machado off of his most valuable position to try to maximize value out of lesser prospects.