View Full Version : Late inning relievers
Sports Guy
12-17-2010, 06:02 PM
Why are the O's even pursuing one?
I know Buck likes to have BP flexibility but right now, you have JJ, Koji and Gonzo for the late innings.
Why would we be trying to overpay for a mediocre reliever who has a lot of valued tied up in saves?
Frobby
12-17-2010, 06:03 PM
Why are the O's even pursuing one?
I know Buck likes to have BP flexibility but right now, you have JJ, Koji and Gonzo for the late innings.
Why would we be trying to overpay for a mediocre reliever who has a lot of valued tied up in saves?
Because all three spent significant time on the DL last year, and in previous years.
CrimsonTribe
12-17-2010, 06:04 PM
Personally I'm not against signing a Gregg type to rack up the saves and using my better relievers in more crucial spots.
Sports Guy
12-17-2010, 06:06 PM
Because all three spent significant time on the DL last year, and in previous years.
Shouldn't they have thought about that before signing Gonzo?
isestrex
12-17-2010, 06:07 PM
because you can never have enough. AM has done a great job of trading relievers for prospects and signing them to reasonable deals can only help down the road.
GM's ALWAYS overpay for solid bullpen help in late July
Shopay
12-17-2010, 06:07 PM
What the consensus on Theo giving Jenks 2/$12 million?
Sports Guy
12-17-2010, 06:12 PM
What the consensus on Theo giving Jenks 2/$12 million?
I think it was a decent deal.,,Maybe a little too much money but Jenks has some sick peripherals..Should be very good.
Sports Guy
12-17-2010, 06:13 PM
because you can never have enough. AM has done a great job of trading relievers for prospects and signing them to reasonable deals can only help down the road.
GM's ALWAYS overpay for solid bullpen help in late July
Who has he done a great job with besides Sherrill?
And who has been signed to a reasonable deal that can help us down the road?
isestrex
12-17-2010, 06:15 PM
Who has he done a great job with besides Sherrill?
And who has been signed to a reasonable deal that can help us down the road?
Bradford for one... and I meant that signing these relievers (Gregg, Fuentes et al) can only help down the road. I didn't mean that the players we traded for were signed.
Sports Guy
12-17-2010, 06:21 PM
Bradford for one... and I meant that signing these relievers (Gregg, Fuentes et al) can only help down the road. I didn't mean that the players we traded for were signed.
Oh yea? Who did we get for Bradford?
How do you know they can only help down the road? What if they get hurt? What if their performance sucks while carrying a high price tag?
Frobby
12-17-2010, 06:23 PM
Shouldn't they have thought about that before signing Gonzo?
Yes. When the reports came out that we hadn't done an MRI on Gonzo before we signed him, I was extremely critical. They absolutely should have done everything possible to check him out before paying him $12 mm and giving up a 2nd round pick. I think there were some explanations that they O's needed to move quickly if they were going to get him, and that MRI's are often not definitive in any event, but I never really bought those explanations.
But now, we are where we are. There actually was a period last year where Gonzo, Koji and JJ were all on the shelf simultaneously. That's how Simon got to be the closer, and then he went on the DL after a leg injury while covering 1B. So you take all that, add in the fact that Berken has a labrum tear that may or may not hamper him, Hernandez has been traded, and Albers was let go, and it makes for a pretty dicey situation. Of course, if everyone's healthy in 2011, it could be an awesome back end of the bullpen without adding anyone.
By the way, I still think it is possible that Jake Arrieta becomes a back-end bullpen guy one day. I think he'd be awesome in that role. But he was decent as a starter last year, and unless and until Tillman and Britton are performing solidly in the rotation, that move isn't likely to happen.
Johnny
12-17-2010, 06:38 PM
Why are the O's even pursuing one?
I know Buck likes to have BP flexibility but right now, you have JJ, Koji and Gonzo for the late innings.
Why would we be trying to overpay for a mediocre reliever who has a lot of valued tied up in saves?
I hear what you're saying, and most times I agree with it, but I can see how bringing in another experienced/affective late inning guy could be a good move: and one we could over-pay for without much trouble.
Yeah, middle relievers are not the best way to throw the money around -insert your own laundry list of bad Orioles' signings. Pure speculation here, but we may have picked up a little budget flexibility by missing on VMart (I doubt we go over $10 for Lee or LaRoche).
Let's say it is $10. We were willing to pay $12 for first (the rest of the infield is pretty much a wash from last year: Reynolds/Hardy/Izturis/Fox cost roughly what Miggy/Wiggy/Izzy/Lugy cost).
Add the 1B budget savings to the $2mill we saved on Koji and you have the money for one of these relievers.
With 80 percent of our starters being so young, the bullpen seems like a good place to make something happen with the leftover money.
SteveA
12-17-2010, 09:47 PM
Shouldn't they have thought about that before signing Gonzo?
Of course they should have.
But that's water under the bridge. That mistake was made. Now we have to deal with what we have, and that means we need more bullpen arms because some of the ones we have are fragile.
Now I'm not in favor of paying Gregg what it appears he's going to get either, I think there are better pitchers out there we could get cheaper, like Manny Delcarmen.
But I definitely believe we need to pick up another couple bullpen arms.
wildcard
12-17-2010, 09:59 PM
Why are the O's even pursuing one?
I know Buck likes to have BP flexibility but right now, you have JJ, Koji and Gonzo for the late innings.
Why would we be trying to overpay for a mediocre reliever who has a lot of valued tied up in saves?
Because the O's need 7 guys in the pen not just 3 and they will need several at AAA to fill in for injuries.
Sports Guy
12-17-2010, 10:02 PM
Because the O's need 7 guys in the pen not just 3 and they will need several at AAA to fill in for injuries.
This doesn't address why are they trying to overpay for late inning relievers whose value is driven by the saves column.
wildcard
12-17-2010, 10:13 PM
This doesn't address why are they trying to overpay for late inning relievers whose value is driven by the saves column.
The ability to save games is just part of it. As Buck says it about wins not saves. They are looking for strong arms. They had to trade DH to get a 3B. They are trying to replace him. I still look for a righthander and a lefthander to be added to the pen.
backwardsk
12-17-2010, 11:42 PM
The Nationals made out pretty well with Capps last season.
I like the Reynolds trade, but consequently, I don't like how the bullpen is shaping up so far.
JohnnyK27
12-17-2010, 11:56 PM
Why are the O's even pursuing one?
I know Buck likes to have BP flexibility but right now, you have JJ, Koji and Gonzo for the late innings.
Why would we be trying to overpay for a mediocre reliever who has a lot of valued tied up in saves?
I personally prefer Jenks to add to our pen.
thefan11
12-18-2010, 12:05 AM
I honestly think McPhail won't spend much more on the bullpen for anyone if he can get his hands on Gregg. As for a lefty, I think he signs someone who is Hendrickson-eske if not they don't resign "stretch" himself, lol. I would be surprised if he signed both Fuentes and Gregg, basically a "big" name righty and lefty.
Crazysilver03
12-18-2010, 12:07 AM
I personally prefer Jenks to add to our pen.
Too bad Jenks has been with Boston for two days now.
thefan11
12-18-2010, 12:09 AM
Too bad Jenks has been with Boston for two days now.
:agree: I was just thinking that.
I don't think spending on the bullpen is a waste of money. When the pen blows as many games as the typical O's bullpen, it's actually a place that can show more drastic improvement (as in wins) sooner.
I don't think WAR has got it nailed down with relievers. A good bullpen arm like Gregg should have more than only a .8 WAR, to me. A guy that locks up wins regularly has real value and will contribute to more than .8 wins over a league average bullpen arm.
El Gordo
12-18-2010, 02:08 AM
Why are the O's even pursuing one?
I know Buck likes to have BP flexibility but right now, you have JJ, Koji and Gonzo for the late innings.Why would we be trying to overpay for a mediocre reliever who has a lot of valued tied up in saves?All three have had injury issues.
JTrea81
12-18-2010, 02:16 AM
I don't think spending on the bullpen is a waste of money. When the pen blows as many games as the typical O's bullpen, it's actually a place that can show more drastic improvement (as in wins) sooner.
I don't think WAR has got it nailed down with relievers. A good bullpen arm like Gregg should have more than only a .8 WAR, to me. A guy that locks up wins regularly has real value and will contribute to more than .8 wins over a league average bullpen arm.
A league average arm is more like 0.5-0.6 fWAR.
Bullpen arms simply aren't as valuable as other players. It makes sense though because they only play in 60-70 games out of 162 at the most.
And you don't need a bullpen to pitch lights out if the offense does it's job and gets enough run support. A bullpen's shortcomings are magnified by a poor offense and will make it look worse than it really is.
The offense is where you really need to be sinking the money into, not the bullpen.