MacPhail Coming Back?

[brotherlo38]

Both Connolly (http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/2011/10/macphail_could_return_to_same_1.html) and Roch (http://www.masnsports.com/school_of_roch/2011/10/stuff-for-tomorrow-entry.html) mentioning that possibility this morning.

[andrewochs615]

Why can't he just make up his mind, leave peacefully, have some crab cakes and go.

[weams]

Why can't he just make up his mind, leave peacefully, have some crab cakes and go.

I think he likes us. It's the Orioles Hangout's fault.

[DuffMan]

I would absolutely hate this move and hope that this isn't what happens, on the other hand I wouldn't mind it simply to see how JTrea would handle the news.

[Dipper9]

This would drive me nuts if MacPhail comes back in the same role. That said, its par for the course with this organization. Hell, Patton is afraid to even call Buck right now because he doesn't know who will be in what role and when. If no one sees an issue with that, then I'm speechless.

[Frobby]

I heard a rumor along these lines yesterday. Emphasis on the word "rumor.". I wonder if the team's strong finish changed somebody's mind?

I think JTrea's head will explode if this happens.

[Moose Milligan]

I would absolutely hate this move and hope that this isn't what happens, on the other hand I wouldn't mind it simply to see how JTrea would handle the news.

My thoughts exactly. I'd be thrilled to see the fallout.

[ChaosLex]

Haha. That'd be great!

[ShaneDawg85]

On some level the news that he's coming back, be it in the same role or a different one, wouldn't bother me nearly half as much as the fact that this should have been resolved months ago. But, as usual, the Orioles botch the whole thing by having Angelos drag it out and potentially change everything.

[JTrea81]

Nobody should want to see that because it means the Orioles do not care about winning.

We won't win anything with Andy MacPhail as GM.

[Tony-OH]

Would certainly seem like par for the course for this organization. In fact, how they are handling this entire situation is exactly why this organization is in the position it's currently in right now. Angelos has never made a definitive decision in his life without taking a long time to make the decisions.

I'm pretty sure all Orioles organization decisions are done in Old Entish ( And yes, that's pretty much the geekiest thing I've posted on here) ;)

[Sports Guy]

What is amazing to me is that you have had plenty of time to have this decision made.

This pathetic organization has seen their season over since July and yet,you have no idea what you are going to do?

Angelos is the worst.

[TiredofLosing20]

What if AM is negotiating for full control (cough fire the Stockstills cough).

[ChaosLex]

Nobody should want to see that because it means the Orioles do not care about winning.

We won't win anything with Peter Angelos as owner.

FTFY.

characters

[wildcard]

Olhippie and I have been saying we could see MacPhail staying. But something is changing. Maybe Buck gets more power or the Stockstill leave or something. Otherwise they would have just said the MacPhail and Buck are staying.

[atownlynx]

If Buck is staying on as manager and also going to have control over roster building and decisions he just needs someone in the GM role. As much as MacPhail should go, he may be the only one willing to be in that role and having zero autonomy.

[Frobby]

Roch says he doesn't expect to hear news today.....it is pretty unbelievable that things are dragging out like this.

If MacPhail does come back, the most important thing is that he and Buck are both comfortable with the arrangement and on the same page about the direction of the franchise. The worst possible thing would be a situation where the two aren't seeing eye-to-eye, there are ambiguities about who has authority to do what, and both are having to go to Angelos to try to get their way.

[Bluerocksfan]

Their strong finish better not have change minds. If I remember correctly the Os finish great last year as well.....

[NewMarketSean]

This organization continues to be the biggest joke in baseball.

[TonySoprano]

What is amazing to me is that you have had plenty of time to have this decision made.

This pathetic organization has seen their season over since July and yet,you have no idea what you are going to do?

Angelos is the worst.Allow me to interrupt the general hand-wringing festival for this brief announcement -
For years, this is so par for the course with Angelos. It's not going to change! I don't like it. However, at the moment, I'm much more ticked off that the Yankees are still in the playoffs.

I asked this in another thread, so I'll try this again. Does it matter that the announcement, if any, comes this week instead of last week? Really?

"If it makes anyone feel better, the Red Sox need a manager and they might need a general manager. The Angels and Cubs need a GM. " - Roch

[TiredofLosing20]

it is pretty unbelievable that things are dragging out like this.

I disagree... It is extremely believable. This is the Orioles...

It seems odd to me that Buck (and pretty much all of the media) hinted that we would know something by last Thursday. AM and PA meet now this is dragging. To me and this is speculation only of course but AM was headed out the door and PA made a convincing case to stay. I can't think that money is what would keep him here so what is it.

[TiredofLosing20]

This organization continues to be the biggest joke in sports.

There you go.. thats better.

[Hooded Viper]

Honestly the only reason I would want AM to stay around, and in a consultant role only, is for trades. That's it!

[ShaneDawg85]

Nobody should want to see that because it means the Orioles do not care about winning.

We won't win anything with Andy MacPhail as GM.

We won't win anything with Buck Showalter as GM, either.

[hoosiers]

I would like to see AM back and am mildly encouraged by the news - though the process is a bit more complicated than necessary.

I think 2011 was a decent year from the GM's point of view - many solid/strong moves on the trade front, international prospects emerging, etc.

I think when we hired Buck that our FO between AM and BS was the best we've seen in years and I still feel that way.

[crissfan172]

Nobody should want to see that because it means the Orioles do not care about winning.

We won't win anything with Andy MacPhail as GM.

This is absolutely ridiculous. No matter whether or not AM is capable of winning, it does not say the Orioles don't care about winning because they obviously think he can.

I wouldn't agree with the decision, but I'm also not comfortable questioning their integrity, which apparently you have no problem doing. :rolleyestf:

[Hank Scorpio]

Would certainly seem like par for the course for this organization. In fact, how they are handling this entire situation is exactly why this organization is in the position it's currently in right now. Angelos has never made a definitive decision in his life without taking a long time to make the decisions.

I'm pretty sure all Orioles organization decision are done in Old Entish ( And yes, that's pretty much the geekiest thing I've posted on here) ;)

This is 100% correct and nobody should be surprised in the least if this is how it plays out.

[Birds08]

I'd prefer to stick with MacPhail than have Buck become GM. While Buck clearly knows baseball, there is no indication he understands business, advanced sabermetrics, etc. That said, I would like MacPhail to be replaced.

[Sports Guy]

Roch says he doesn't expect to hear news today.....it is pretty unbelievable that things are dragging out like this.
If MacPhail does come back, the most important thing is that he and Buck are both comfortable with the arrangement and on the same page about the direction of the franchise. The worst possible thing would be a situation where the two aren't seeing eye-to-eye, there are ambiguities about who has authority to do what, and both are having to go to Angelos to try to get their way.The unbelievable thing would be that you would expect anything different.

[Sports Guy]

There you go.. thats better.LOL...I was about to do the same thing.

[Sports Guy]

Allow me to interrupt the general hand-wringing festival for this brief announcement -
For years, this is so par for the course with Angelos. It's not going to change! I don't like it. However, at the moment, I'm much more ticked off that the Yankees are still in the playoffs.

I asked this in another thread, so I'll try this again. Does it matter that the announcement, if any, comes this week instead of last week? Really?"If it makes anyone feel better, the Red Sox need a manager and they might need a general manager. The Angels and Cubs need a GM. " - RochProbably not. PA is the biggest problem.

However, that doesn't mean it doesn't look unorganized, unprofessional and ridiculously poor on the part of the organization.

Pathetic.

[Sports Guy]

I would like to see AM back and am mildly encouraged by the news - though the process is a bit more complicated than necessary.

I think 2011 was a decent year from the GM's point of view - many solid/strong moves on the trade front, international prospects emerging, etc.

I think when we hired Buck that our FO between AM and BS was the best we've seen in years and I still feel that way.Wow, that's one hell of a ringing endorsement!! :rolleyes:

[TonySoprano]

Probably not. PA is the biggest problem.

However, that doesn't mean it doesn't look unorganized, unprofessional and ridiculously poor on the part of the organization.

Pathetic.Agreed. What else is new?

[lovetoaster]

I would like to see AM back and am mildly encouraged by the news - though the process is a bit more complicated than necessary.

I think 2011 was a decent year from the GM's point of view - many solid/strong moves on the trade front, international prospects emerging, etc.

I think when we hired Buck that our FO between AM and BS was the best we've seen in years and I still feel that way.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, because I think we have made some very good moves over the last few years. But they need to be more aggressive in several aspects to really change the direction of this franchise. And I don't know if the current setup is capable of that. The trades have been great, but we are going to have to be more aggressive in free agency and a lot more aggressive in the international market if we want to compete in the near future. We are making baby steps, and that is fine, but at this pace, if everything breaks right (which it never does), by the time we are on the cusp of contending, all of the good players that we currently have like Markakis and Jones are either going to be on the downside of their career or playing elsewhere. Then we would be right back at square one with a few good players like Machado and Bundy (hopefully) and a bunch of spare parts.

[Camden_yardbird]

Nobody should want to see that because it means the Orioles do not care about winning.

We won't win anything with Andy MacPhail as GM.

That's not true. We win trades.

[grimed1]

That's not true. We win trades.

But not games. How many more 90 loss seasons will we get? I still think MacPhail is going to leave or have a different role. Also if he is back as GM alot of things changed in the last couple of days.

[JTrea81]

Anybody who wants MacPhail back... I just don't have any words...

Nope, just...

[JTrea81]

That's not true. We win trades.
I'd rather win games, but maybe that's just me...

[osfan83]

I don't necessarily disagree with this, because I think we have made some very good moves over the last few years. But they need to be more aggressive in several aspects to really change the direction of this franchise. And I don't know if the current setup is capable of that. The trades have been great, but we are going to have to be more aggressive in free agency and a lot more aggressive in the international market if we want to compete in the near future. We are making baby steps, and that is fine, but at this pace, if everything breaks right (which it never does), by the time we are on the cusp of contending, all of the good players that we currently have like Markakis and Jones are either going to be on the downside of their career or playing elsewhere. Then we would be right back at square one with a few good players like Machado and Bundy (hopefully) and a bunch of spare parts.

100% agree. Rebuilding must take only 3 or 4 years max. You can't rebuild over a 6 or 7 year period. If we started from scratch today we would have to plan on winning in 2015. Players peak, and free agency begins way to quickly to take baby steps.
Year 1 - Aquire lots of young talent.
Year 2 - develop young talent add some peices
Year 3 - Add final peices with 1 or 2 big talent aquisitions.
Year 4 - Make your run
Year 5 - make your run
Year 6 - make your run...and if it's not working dismattle and start at year 1.

[Sports Guy]

Anybody who wants MacPhail back... I just don't have any words...

Nope, just...Do you understand the concept that no one believes it matters who the GM is while PA is the owner?

[Sports Guy]

100% agree. Rebuilding must take only 3 or 4 years max. You can't rebuild over a 6 or 7 year period. If we started from scratch today we would have to plan on winning in 2015. Players peak, and free agency begins way to quickly to take baby steps.
Year 1 - Aquire lots of young talent.
Year 2 - develop young talent add some peices
Year 3 - Add final peices with 1 or 2 big talent aquisitions.
Year 4 - Make your run
Year 5 - make your run
Year 6 - make your run...and if it's not working dismattle and start at year 1.If you buy and sell at the same time, you can contend much quicker if you make the right trades and acquire the right players.

[JTrea81]

Do you understand the concept that no one believes it matters who the GM is while PA is the owner?

That's really sad.

That's I guess all I can say...

[PaulFolk]

That's really sad.

That's I guess all I can say...We agree there. It is incredibly sad what Angelos has done to the Orioles.

[ShaneDawg85]

Anybody who wants MacPhail back... I just don't have any words...

Nope, just...

Anybody who doesn't believe Peter Angelos is the problem, has been the problem, and always will be the problem... I Just don't have any words...

Nope, none.

[JTrea81]

We agree there. It is incredibly sad what Angelos has done to the Orioles. And the fanbase. People are so beaten down that they think there is no hope.

If that's the case contraction may truly be the best option...

[OFFNY]

I would absolutely hate this move and hope that this isn't what happens, on the other hand I wouldn't mind it simply to see how JTrea would handle the news.

He said that he'll stop following the O's and cease to be a fan of the team if MacPhail was still our GM in 2012. He said that it's him or McPhail.

[PaulFolk]

And the fanbase. People are so beaten down that they think there is no hope.

If that's the case contraction may truly be the best option...Contraction? Really? That's what you jump to?

The best option is Angelos selling the team.

[JTrea81]

Contraction? Really? That's what you jump to?

The best option is Angelos selling the team.

Which may never happen for years and years...

I'm beginning to wonder if contraction and being forced to find a new team would be better for everybody than being loyal to this one and watching it continuously lose.

Then as some suggested, Baltimore could get a relocated team a few years down the road.

In the meantime they could go back to being a AAA franchise like they were before the Browns came to town...

[Sports Guy]

And the fanbase. People are so beaten down that they think there is no hope.
If that's the case contraction may truly be the best option...I agree it is sad...But that "no hope" has been created by Angelos, not AM.

You want to blame AM for everything(and trust me, I am with you on the idea that he isn't any good) but PA is the clear, no doubt about it #1 issue and until he leaves, the Orioles will have to get very lucky to have a shot at contending.

[Frobby]

He said that he'll stop following the O's and cease to be a fan of the team if MacPhail was still our GM in 2012. He said that it's him or McPhail.

Probably an empty threat, IMO.

As for me, I am more interested in what the team does this winter, than which GM does it. I think MacPhail had a pretty good year from Oct. 2010 until the August 2011 trade deadline, despite some mistakes.

[Sports Guy]

Probably an empty threat, IMO.

As for me, I am more interested in what the team does this winter, than which GM does it. I think MacPhail had a pretty good year from Oct. 2010 until the August 2011 trade deadline, despite some mistakes.He brought in some nice pieces but really did nothing to help the long term future of the team.

I don't know how that can be characterized as a "pretty good year".

But, again, PA is pulling the strings, so who the hell really knows.

[JTrea81]

Probably an empty threat, IMO.

As for me, I am more interested in what the team does this winter, than which GM does it. I think MacPhail had a pretty good year from Oct. 2010 until the August 2011 trade deadline, despite some mistakes.

Nope it's not empty. If MacPhail comes back as GM I won't follow this team. You don't invite back one the worst GMs in franchise history in terms of results on the field if you truly care about winning.

And if the Orioles don't care about winning, I'm sick of caring about them.

They don't deserve my support.

[Sports Guy]

Nope it's not empty. If MacPhail comes back as GM I won't follow this team. You don't invite back one the worst GMs in franchise history in terms of results on the field if you truly care about winning.

And if the Orioles don't care about winning, I'm sick of caring about them.Ok..say you stop following and then, AM signs Fielder(I agree this isn't like, this is just a hypothetical)...What do you do then?

[OFFNY]

Nope it's not empty. If MacPhail comes back as GM, I won't follow this team. You don't invite back one the worst GMs in franchise history in terms of results on the field if you truly care about winning.

And if the Orioles don't care about winning, I'm sick of caring about them.

They don't deserve my support.

Thank you. Now I don't have to scrounge around the threads to see where you said it previously.

[OrioleMagic]

MLBTR quotes Britt Ghiroli (http://brittghiroli.mlblogs.com/2011/10/04/your-non-update/) and then somehow opines "It’s expected that MacPhail will step down and that the Orioles will find a replacement."

MacPhail's contract runs through October 31, 2011.

[JTrea81]

Ok..say you stop following and then, AM signs Fielder(I agree this isn't like, this is just a hypothetical)...What do you do then?
Fielder isn't enough. It would have to be the best offseason in franchise history to get me to come back. Otherwise I'm doing something more enjoyable and productive with my life.

[DuffMan]

Which may never happen for years and years...

I'm beginning to wonder if contraction and being forced to find a new team would be better for everybody than being loyal to this one and watching it continuously lose.

Then as some suggested, Baltimore could get a relocated team a few years down the road.

In the meantime they could go back to being a AAA franchise like they were before the Browns came to town...

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR_32MtyFruXFwJcoTju0Z4EZMgJ-pNkJeXRK-5-Xeb2bWEEjI4Mg

[Pedro Cerrano]

Why do people care so much what JTrea does?

[OFFNY]

Why do people care so much what JTrea does?

If you had a bad cold, would you care whether or not it went away ???

[Pedro Cerrano]

If you had a bad cold, would you care whether or not it went away ???

I mean, this is a message board.

[Mr Snuffleupagus]

Why do people care so much what JTrea does?

It's the first step to world peace.

[Lucky Jim]

And the fanbase. People are so beaten down that they think there is no hope.

If that's the case contraction may truly be the best option...

Of posters? Sure.*


*Not really. That said, I'm still waiting for your response to the payroll-win debunking.

[Singleton]

Our incompetence is shown through 14 years of losing not in a minor delay in naming a GM. As noted elsewhere, other teams are in transition too. It happens after a season. Before jumping off the bridge (again) lets see what happens. If they announce a new GM tomorrow with AM in some consultancy role, the "wait" will not have been unreasonable or a big deal.

I'm not as down on AM as most here but bringing him back as GM is a bad move on many levels.

[NCRaven]

The failure of the cavalry is the most direct reason for this team's failure this year. Arrieta played injured; if he'd had this surgery last year he might have had a much better season. Brian Matusz came into camp with a fat head, fat ass, got injured and was a dismal failure. Better approach in the offseason and he might have had a better season. Britton was lasted longer and had better results than them, but was a rookie and should have been expected to go through some growing pains. Bergesen hasn't been the same since his leg injury; why?; no one knows. Tillman?; here's one more season of saying, "well, he's still young." Guthrie is Guthrie; O's score 3, he'll find a way to give up 4.

In my mind, MacPhail's largest failure has been in not bringing in an established TOR pitcher to stabilize the rotation. Not second tier starters like he's tried in the past, but the real deal. I'd love to see us get (not just pursue) someone like Fielder. But, we can't count on the same group of pitchers to step up next year. I THINK Arrieta, Britton, and Hunter can be a solid 2-3-4 or 3-4-5. But we really need a top starter to lead the group. Then I'd be happy with everyone else fighting for the last spot.

I've been happy with the trades that brought us Hardy, Reynolds, Davis, Hunter, and Strop this year. But, without solid starting pitching, it's useless.

[Lucky Jim]

Why do people care so much what JTrea does?

Honestly? I don't like intellectual dishonesty or intellectual laziness. It's as close as I come to a kind of moral stance.

[glenn__davis]

I mean, this is a message board.

Yes, but it's a high-quality message board where people like to have high-quality debates, and not have nearly every thread devolve into the same topic.

I am not a JTrea basher. He obviously has rights to his opinion. I just zone him out, and I really wish others could do the same. Every reply he gets just gives him another platform from which to preach the agenda.

[El Gordo]

Honestly? I don't like intellectual dishonesty or intellectual laziness. It's as close as I come to a kind of moral stance.This would assume the intellect part to be present. I'm not so sure about that. So I give him a moral pass, and put him on ignore.

[Tony-OH]

Guys, stay on the subject and off a certain poster.

[NewMarketSean]

Bringing AM back in the same capacity sure does reinforce that the status quo of 90 loss seasons 6 years in a row is A-OK.

[bej6789]

I know this is getting pinned on Angelos, and I have no real knowledge as to whether that's true. It certainly seems like it. However, as a hypothetical, suppose Buck wants Macphail to stay? What does everyone think then? From the looks of it, everyone is pretty much on board with Buck heading things either from the dugout or the front office. His first wish might be for Macphail to remain in his current position, as almost a guide to the process (at least for 2012). I don't really think I have that much of an issue if Macphail stays on this year. Either way, Buck's clearly going to have a ton of influence.

What annoys me is all the after the season talk about how "things move pretty quickly around here." It has only be a week after that comment was made, but don't tell me something's expected last Thursday and we're all sitting here the following week with nothing. It's just such a stupid, avoidable issue that makes the team look like the right hand isn't talking to the left. Just don't say anything and we won't have this problem!

[Sports Guy]

I know this is getting pinned on Angelos, and I have no real knowledge as to whether that's true. It certainly seems like it. However, as a hypothetical, suppose Buck wants Macphail to stay? What does everyone think then? From the looks of it, everyone is pretty much on board with Buck heading things either from the dugout or the front office. His first wish might be for Macphail to remain in his current position, as almost a guide to the process (at least for 2012). I don't really think I have that much of an issue if Macphail stays on this year. Either way, Buck's clearly going to have a ton of influence.

What annoys me is all the after the season talk about how "things move pretty quickly around here." It has only be a week after that comment was made, but don't tell me something's expected last Thursday and we're all sitting here the following week with nothing. It's just such a stupid, avoidable issue that makes the team look like the right hand isn't talking to the left. Just don't say anything and we won't have this problem!I personally could care less.

Buck having this much influence is a bad thing.

[JTrea81]

Bringing AM back in the same capacity sure does reinforce that the status quo of 90 loss seasons 6 years in a row is A-OK.

MacPhail = losing. No doubt about it.

He should not be back as GM if this franchise cares about winning as much as they preach they do.

If Buck wants him back in that role (which I doubt based on the veiled shots he's taken), Buck is a hypocrite and a liar.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I personally could care less.

Buck having this much influence is a bad thing.

Maybe to you and me, but it seems like many (too many) people are OK with Buck in charge, so it becomes a legitimate question to ask.

[Camden_yardbird]

Someone's head rolls. If not AM, then who? I don't want to see him back, though not because I think he is a bad GM, he just not the right GM. Unfortunately I don't think Angelos would/will/can/understands how to hire the right type of GM.

If Friedman is up to leaving, then offer him the 50 million instead of someone like Fielder.

[SammyBirdland]

NBC Sports: Andy MacPhail reconsidering leaving Orioles? (http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/05/andy-macphail-reconsidering-leaving-orioles?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

[JTrea81]

NBC Sports: Andy MacPhail reconsidering leaving Orioles? (http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/05/andy-macphail-reconsidering-leaving-orioles?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

Andy, do us a favor and just leave already. Please...

You owe us some shred of hope after the misery you've subjected us to.

[weams]

http://www.armynavyshop.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/9561.jpg

This year's model

[JTrea81]

http://www.armynavyshop.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/9561.jpg

This year's model

A safety vest? Not quite sure I get the metaphor.

The franchise is not safe with MacPhail.

A straightjacket would be more fitting as him coming back is the definiton of insanity...

[SammyBirdland]

Andy, do us a favor and just leave already. Please...

You owe us some shred of hope after the misery you've subjected us to.

The reason he's still in the picture is because Angelos is begging him to stay. What are your thoughts on that?

[JTrea81]

The reason he's still in the picture is because Angelos is begging him to stay. What are your thoughts on that?

I said I'd get my answer this offseason on Angelos' commitment to win. MacPhail = a commitment to lose. Enough said.

[The Rick]

My best guess is that AM staying is the lesser of the other evils, so to speak. Angelos clearly trusts MacPhail, and I shudder to think how PA would screw up another regime by meddling... even if that "other regime" was better for this team.

[ShaneDawg85]

Andy, do us a favor and just leave already. Please...

You owe us some shred of hope after the misery you've subjected us to.

Yes, because Andy MacPhail sits in his office every day and thinks, "Hmm, how can royally screw the Orioles fans? How can I make their lives absolutely miserable?"

I'm sure he just sits there and thinks about these things.:rolleyes:

[TonySoprano]

MacPhail = losing. No doubt about it.

He should not be back as GM if this franchise cares about winning as much as they preach they do.

If Buck wants him back in that role (which I doubt based on the veiled shots he's taken), Buck is a hypocrite and a liar.Newsflash, Angelos makes the final decision, not Buck. Only Buck knows for sure how he feels about MacPhail, but he sure as hell isn't going to throw Andy under the bus in print.

[JTrea81]

Yes, because Andy MacPhail sits in his office every day and thinks, "Hmm, how can royally screw the Orioles fans? How can I make their lives absolutely miserable?"

I'm sure he just sits there and thinks about these things.:rolleyes:

That's the problem really. He's completely out of touch with the fanbase and doesn't seem to care about the long 14 year losing streak IMO.

He only sees one way to do things, and while we've improved our record each year, it's been 4 years and we haven't seen 70 wins yet and yet his predecessors were fired with better results.

Syd Thrift won more than 70 games multiple times and he was senile.

[JTrea81]

Newsflash, Angelos makes the final decision, not Buck. Only Buck knows for sure how he feels about MacPhail, but he sure as hell isn't going to throw Andy under the bus in print.

If Buck doesn't want MacPhail back, he should quit if he does come back. There will be better opportunities than the Orioles...

[Frobby]

NBC Sports: Andy MacPhail reconsidering leaving Orioles? (http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/05/andy-macphail-reconsidering-leaving-orioles?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

Just a regurgitation of Connolly's piece from this morning.

[crawjo]

I don't want him to come back, but MacPhail, if he leaves actually has the organization in a better position than he did when he took the team. He brought in young talent, which the Orioles lacked for most of the decade prior to MacPhail's hire. Most of that young talent has failed to deliver, and MacPhail deserves responsibility for that, but I don't think his tenure was an entire failure. I think people forget how little talent there was in this organization for most of the decade.

I also completely disagree with the notion that rehiring MacPhail would be a "commitment to lose." What infuriates me about JTrea's posts is the arrogance involved, mainly in the fact that his proposed solutions to the Orioles problems are unimaginative, unrealistic, and very often worse than the status quo. There is a wonderful critique to be made of MacPhail's tenure in Baltimore, but unfortunately his #1 critic on this board is apparently incapable of making it.

[crissfan172]

That's the problem really. He's completely out of touch with the fanbase and doesn't seem to care about the long 14 year losing streak IMO.

He only sees one way to do things, and while we've improved our record each year, it's been 4 years and we haven't seen 70 wins yet and yet his predecessors were fired with better results.

Syd Thrift won more than 70 games multiple times and he was senile.

You just described Angelos.

[Frobby]

MacPhail = losing. No doubt about it.

He should not be back as GM if this franchise cares about winning as much as they preach they do.

If Buck wants him back in that role (which I doubt based on the veiled shots he's taken), Buck is a hypocrite and a liar.


That's the problem really. He's completely out of touch with the fanbase and doesn't seem to care about the long 14 year losing streak IMO.

He only sees one way to do things, and while we've improved our record each year, it's been 4 years and we haven't seen 70 wins yet and yet his predecessors were fired with better results.

Syd Thrift won more than 70 games multiple times and he was senile.


If Buck doesn't want MacPhail back, he should quit if he does come back. There will be better opportunities than the Orioles...

Buck has said, at least twice that I know of, that he'd be pleased to keep working with MacPhail, and that MacPhail's decision was up to him and his family as to what he wanted to do. Buck has gone out of his way to state that he has a good working relationship with MacPhail, that he considers MacPhail a good friend, and that MacPhail is one of the most moral and ethical people he has met in baseball. So, to me, Buck would be "a hypocrite and a liar" if he didn't mean those things when he said them.

As to MacPhail not winning 70 games, he was in a hole when he started. He didn't expect the team to get better right away when he traded Bedard and Tejada. 99% of the fans understood that MacPhail was going to put us through a couple of years of pain to try to position the team better for the long run.

That said, I didn't expect the team to be nearly as bad as it has been in 2010 and 2011. 69 wins after 3+ years as GM is not a good record. It's not all MacPhail's fault, contrary to your opinion. You can't always expect young players to develop at exactly the pace you want, and sometimes a good plan simply doesn't work out. The fact that we've gotten so little from Matusz, Tillman, Arrieta and Britton has hurt; BRob's injuries and Markakis's regression have been difficult blows that aren't the fault of the GM. I am not holding MacPhail blameless here -- he has made plenty of mistakes. But your tendency to blame every negative thing that occurs on MacPhail, and never give him credit for things that work out well, is well documented.

I'd prefer to have a new GM, but if MacPhail returns, it does not at all mean that the franchise isn't committed to winning, and it certainly doesn't mean that Buck is being overridden, based on what he has said.

[ccbird]

My best guess is that AM staying is the lesser of the other evils, so to speak. Angelos clearly trusts MacPhail, and I shudder to think how PA would screw up another regime by meddling... even if that "other regime" was better for this team.

Pretty much. I absolutely believe Angelos trusts AM more than he would trust anybody else in the position. Maybe, maybe Buck has close to the same amount of trust but IMO when it comes to being a GM AM>BS. ANybody else brought in here is going to have nowhere near the fee reign that AM had and the truth of the matter is AM probably still had a relatively tight leash himself.

[theobird]

Buck has said, at least twice that I know of, that he'd be pleased to keep working with MacPhail, and that MacPhail's decision was up to him and his family as to what he wanted to do. Buck has gone out of his way to state that he has a good working relationship with MacPhail, that he considers MacPhail a good friend, and that MacPhail is one of the most moral and ethical people he has met in baseball. So, to me, Buck would be "a hypocrite and a liar" if he didn't mean those things when he said them.

As to MacPhail not winning 70 games, he was in a hole when he started. He didn't expect the team to get better right away when he traded Bedard and Tejada. 99% of the fans understood that MacPhail was going to put us through a couple of years of pain to try to position the team better for the long run.

That said, I didn't expect the team to be nearly as bad as it has been in 2010 and 2011. 69 wins after 3+ years as GM is not a good record. It's not all MacPhail's fault, contrary to your opinion. You can't always expect young players to develop at exactly the pace you want, and sometimes a good plan simply doesn't work out. The fact that we've gotten so little from Matusz, Tillman, Arrieta and Britton has hurt; BRob's injuries and Markakis's regression have been difficult blows that aren't the fault of the GM. I am not holding MacPhail blameless here -- he has made plenty of mistakes. But your tendency to blame every negative thing that occurs on MacPhail, and never give him credit for things that work out well, is well documented.

I'd prefer to have a new GM, but if MacPhail returns, it does not at all mean that the franchise isn't committed to winning, and it certainly doesn't mean that Buck is being overridden, based on what he has said.

I agree with you on almost all counts here Frobby, but i actually would prefer to see MacPhail stay as the GM. I think Buck does too. I think AM has been good overall in his performance, its just that he doesn't have a crystal ball. How many of us could predict the almost complete, across the board failure of the Cavalry? Should AM e held accountable for the Roberts situation? Should he have known that the teams best young player, Nick Markakis, would develop into an average at best offensive player?
I still support AM's overall plan. I don't think he has full autonomy, and believe that King Peter still meddles into baseball affairs way too much. But I also think that AM would have more autonomy going forward than any other GM we could hire. So.....If AM stays, i will actually be pleased.

[Remember The Alomar]

Unsure if this has been posted anywhere, so forgive me if these tweets have already been disseminated.

via Roch:


It doesn't appear that #orioles unsettled front office situation will be settled before Friday. MacPhail still deciding what he wants to do


Looking less likely that Showalter would move into front office if Andy leaves. Deemed too valuable in the dugout. But I'm not placing bets

[weams]

Buck has said, at least twice that I know of, that he'd be pleased to keep working with MacPhail, and that MacPhail's decision was up to him and his family as to what he wanted to do. Buck has gone out of his way to state that he has a good working relationship with MacPhail, that he considers MacPhail a good friend, and that MacPhail is one of the most moral and ethical people he has met in baseball. So, to me, Buck would be "a hypocrite and a liar" if he didn't mean those things when he said them.

As to MacPhail not winning 70 games, he was in a hole when he started. He didn't expect the team to get better right away when he traded Bedard and Tejada. 99% of the fans understood that MacPhail was going to put us through a couple of years of pain to try to position the team better for the long run.

That said, I didn't expect the team to be nearly as bad as it has been in 2010 and 2011. 69 wins after 3+ years as GM is not a good record. It's not all MacPhail's fault, contrary to your opinion. You can't always expect young players to develop at exactly the pace you want, and sometimes a good plan simply doesn't work out. The fact that we've gotten so little from Matusz, Tillman, Arrieta and Britton has hurt; BRob's injuries and Markakis's regression have been difficult blows that aren't the fault of the GM. I am not holding MacPhail blameless here -- he has made plenty of mistakes. But your tendency to blame every negative thing that occurs on MacPhail, and never give him credit for things that work out well, is well documented.

I'd prefer to have a new GM, but if MacPhail returns, it does not at all mean that the franchise isn't committed to winning, and it certainly doesn't mean that Buck is being overridden, based on what he has said.Buck has said that they would remain friends throughout their lives no matter what Andy's business decision might be.

[Frobby]

Buck has said that they would remain friends throughout their lives no matter what Andy's business decision might be.

Yes, that's exactly what he said, in an interview that was played on the pre-game show before the final game of the year.

[The Rick]

I would like to see AM back and am mildly encouraged by the news - though the process is a bit more complicated than necessary.

I think 2011 was a decent year from the GM's point of view - many solid/strong moves on the trade front, international prospects emerging, etc.

I think when we hired Buck that our FO between AM and BS was the best we've seen in years and I still feel that way.

I wouldn't go as far to say that I'm mildly encouraged, but I wouldn't jump off a bridge if AM is brought back. He has done some nice things, and he hasn't done much to set us back. I know many will think that's accepting complacency, but I disagree - I still think the AM/Buck duo has some upside for this organization.

[Frobby]

I agree with you on almost all counts here Frobby, but i actually would prefer to see MacPhail stay as the GM. I think Buck does too. I think AM has been good overall in his performance, its just that he doesn't have a crystal ball. How many of us could predict the almost complete, across the board failure of the Cavalry? Should AM e held accountable for the Roberts situation? Should he have known that the teams best young player, Nick Markakis, would develop into an average at best offensive player?
I still support AM's overall plan. I don't think he has full autonomy, and believe that King Peter still meddles into baseball affairs way too much. But I also think that AM would have more autonomy going forward than any other GM we could hire. So.....If AM stays, i will actually be pleased.

As I've said many times, my biggest criticism of MacPhail is that he hasn't done enough to fix our player development system. In the long run, that is far more important than any particular decision at the major league level.

[The Rick]

As I've said many times, my biggest criticism of MacPhail is that he hasn't done enough to fix our player development system. In the long run, that is far more important than any particular decision at the major league level.

And you wonder if he's been given the autonomy to fix the player development system. Until proven otherwise, I place that blame squarely on PA.

[JTrea81]

Heyman (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_heyman/10/05/rangers.daniels/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_wr_a3) hears its Buck that is still making up his mind.

Frankly I'm starting think this MacPhail staying as GM stuff is just a conversation generator...

[SilentJames]

And now we go to a dramatic reading from Andy MacPhail's head:

To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous baseball fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of angry fans,
And by opposing end them? To die: to lose;
No more; and by a lose to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of winter what playoff dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long a GM’s life;
For who would bear the tweets and scorns of time,
The owner's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised fans, the Keith Law's delay,
The insolence of international scouts and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy FA’s,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a sweater vest? who would Orioles bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary baseball life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd winning-season from whose bourn
No free agent would return, puzzles the will
And makes Brian Matusz forget those pitches we have
Than throw others that we know not of?
Thus Angelos does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of Baltimore
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their players turn awry,
And lose the name of action. - Soft you now!
The fair Orioles! Birds, in thy message boards
Be all my sins remember'd.

[Sports Guy]

Heyman (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_heyman/10/05/rangers.daniels/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_wr_a3) hears its Buck that is still making up his mind.

Frankly I'm starting think this MacPhail staying as GM stuff is just a conversation generator...So, this time you believe Heyman? When he said working for PA is the toughest job in the sport, you laughed that off as him as a PA basher.

So, which is it? Is Heyman right or not? Do you trust him or not?

Or do you only agree with what you want to hear?

[Malike]

Peter Angelos owns the team. Pick a GM, any GM, and then meet the new boss, same as the old boss. I won't get fooled, again!

[carolinaoriole]

I think that Heyman does not realize that Buck has left Texas and is in Florida and from there he is supposed to fly back to Baltimore. Seems like he is a little behind the curve on his info by about a week.

[weams]

I think that Heyman does not realize that Buck has left Texas and is in Florida and from there he is supposed to fly back to Baltimore. Seems like he is a little behind the curve on his info by about a week.That was based on last Friday's news. He is in Sarasota and has been since Monday. Also, Buck had promised the SMU game to his sons so the whole family meeting may have been a media creation. Again.

[carolinaoriole]

That was based on last Friday's news. He is in Sarasota and has been since Monday. Also, Buck had promised the SMU game to his sons so the whole family meeting may have been a media creation. Again. Exactly. I think Heyman thinks Buck is still in Texas.

[jcroemer]

Andy MacPhail has enjoyed an excellent career based on a family name and walking into a great situation.

The core of the Twins team that won the 1987 and 1991 was already in place when MacPhail became GM His 1987 World Series team was a fluke based on an absurd home field advantage. Consider that the were 0-3 on the road in the 1987 Series and that they won something like 56 games at home that season They won something like 85 overall and got the AL West when the Royals had an offseason with injuries to Brett. Hard to give Andy a lot of credit on that one. He did cut a trade that yielded two starters in the '91 rotation and picked up a solid closer.

He had 7 losing Cubs teams and 5 that got over .500. He was employed by Tribune Company, an owner as out of touch as Angelos. Many of those clubs lost 90+ just like our beloved Orioles. All 4 of his Baltimore teams lost 90+ games.

During season ticket holder events his handling of questions about sabermetrics leave a great deal to be desired. There is no reason to believe that the Orioles have employed advanced statistics. I think many of the free agent signings more than demonstrate that fact. They've been bargain bin shoppers and they really don't hit, mostly misses. Buck openly stated that he doesn't put much into statistics. MacPhail is applying a method that worked in the late-1980s. We're heading for 2012 and a lot has changed in the formulas of what works. Look at how Tampa or Boston run their organizations... where there are developed manuals or how to teach various skills and focuses for each level, written by the GM. You think MacPhail has a manual like that? Do you see any consistency in player development? No.. just an ineffective conditioning staff that can't keep anyone healthy.

But the problems go all the way to the top, Angelos is the only constant in this mess. Like it's been said, pick a GM, any GM. But if you go back to MacPhail you prove the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. The organization is very, very far behind the curve and when they finally do right the ship and fix the problems from the top-down (think Pittsburgh Pirates) then you'll see a product on the field worth investing time into... but it'll take 5 or 6 years of pain because they're that far behind.

[Justinlstn]

I don't know if its AM or PA, JJ, or whomever but the biggest problem i have had with the Orioles is how we have constantly finished near the bottom year after year and we are in good position in the draft but it always seems we are trying to get quantity instead of quality. Like this years draft which was supposed to be the most talented draft and it seems like we were looking for bargains instead of getting the best player available. We are not a poor franchise, and we are not spending the money on FA's. So why are we not investing hard into the draft? Sure drafting a stud in the 2nd or 3rd round isn't a sure thing but drafting guys you see only as relievers for your team just seems crazy to me. You can turn almost any pitcher into a reliever. Arthur Rhodes who was a failed starter had a long career as a reliever. The only way we are ever going to compete with Boston or NY or Tampa is either spend like the big boys or build a respectable minor league program. And right now we are not doing either. I think thats what this organization needs to address. What direction they are going to do and not do it half ass. If we are building up our minor league system be damn sure you get the best coaches and scouts we can get to teaches these guys and get them major league ready. And please look at all prospects ie latin players and pacific players.

[OsLuvrInKy]

MacPhail = losing. No doubt about it.

He should not be back as GM if this franchise cares about winning as much as they preach they do.

If Buck wants him back in that role (which I doubt based on the veiled shots he's taken), Buck is a hypocrite and a liar.

Proof. links, articles.

I want you to post something definitive showing that Buck wants/wanted AM to leave, does not like AM etc....

This is why you get on peoples FU@##NG NERVES!!

[SrMeowMeow]

I'm 100% in favor of MacPhail returning. It'd be hilarious.

On the plus side, I assume that his return would be contingent on some concessions from Angelos. So that might be good. As in, "look, you didn't let me do my thing and we're nowhere, like I warned. Give me autonomy or I'm gone and you'll continue winning 60-70 games a season."

[Remember The Alomar]

MacPhail = losing. No doubt about it.

He should not be back as GM if this franchise cares about winning as much as they preach they do.

If Buck wants him back in that role (which I doubt based on the veiled shots he's taken), Buck is a hypocrite and a liar.

When has Buck taken one "veiled shot" at AM? I'm honestly curious.

[SrMeowMeow]

When has Buck taken one "veiled shot" at AM? I'm honestly curious.

Well, for example, MacPhail has a strict losing-only policy. So whenever Buck talks about winning, it's a veiled shot at MacPhail.

[JTrea81]

When has Buck taken one "veiled shot" at AM? I'm honestly curious.

He mentioned something about somebody elses international prospect implying that the Orioles should care more about that talent after MacPhail said differently.

His comments about the SP also implied that AM didn't evaluate correctly and ignored performance of the pitching because it was homegrown. He also said you can't eliminate buying the arms which is in direct conflict with AM's strategy.

[Pat Kelly]

That was based on last Friday's news. He is in Sarasota and has been since Monday. Also, Buck had promised the SMU game to his sons so the whole family meeting may have been a media creation. Again.

Weams without putting you too much on the spot...In terms of the front office/GM role - what do you want to happen, what do you believe Angelos wants, what do you think will happen?

[JDubs]

And the fanbase. People are so beaten down that they think there is no hope.

If that's the case contraction may truly be the best option...

Finally, some logic and common sense from your posts. We don't have to like it, but we do have to understand certain realities when they hit us over the head.

[JDubs]

Nope it's not empty. If MacPhail comes back as GM I won't follow this team. You don't invite back one the worst GMs in franchise history in terms of results on the field if you truly care about winning.

And if the Orioles don't care about winning, I'm sick of caring about them.

They don't deserve my support.

Quoted for posterity.

[Malike]

He mentioned something about somebody elses international prospect implying that the Orioles should care more about that talent after MacPhail said differently.

His comments about the SP also implied that AM didn't evaluate correctly and ignored performance of the pitching because it was homegrown. He also said you can't eliminate buying the arms which is in direct conflict with AM's strategy.

I'm curious as to how you support the team. Do you have a season ticket package? Do you subscribe to MASN to see all the games? If you are talking about buying Orioles gear, well thats all just a big pool of money that the MLB doles out. I know you live quite far from Baltimore and I'm just curious as to how much support you provide that isnt emotional, which would hurt the Orioles organization if you stopped rooting for this team.

[scOtt]

GREAT thread!!!


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Do6Ot23USI4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[JTrea81]

I'm curious as to how you support the team. Do you have a season ticket package? Do you subscribe to MASN to see all the games? If you are talking about buying Orioles gear, well thats all just a big pool of money that the MLB doles out. I know you live quite far from Baltimore and I'm just curious as to how much support you provide that isnt emotional, which would hurt the Orioles organization if you stopped rooting for this team.

Man where do I begin...

I've invested far more time and effort than anybody in Maine (and probably a lot of folks in Baltimore too) in following and supporting this team. I've flown down for games, bought merchandise and most importantly I live and die by the Orioles still after all this losing. And that is why it would be hard to walk away, but really the best thing for me if the franchise continues on the path it is on now...

When I hear people want MacPhail back, it really makes me angry, so much to the point where I feel it taking over me. It puts unneeded stress in my life where there is stress already. I can't and won't go through another offseason of that. Following this team is supposed to be fun, a break from the daily stresses in life and it just isn't right now and hasn't been for some time.

The hardest part is knowing you've invested 14 years of watching a team continuously lose, and they still don't care enough to reward you for your support. I just don't understand why the club wouldn't get it after 14 years of the same result and now it being the worst results the club has ever seen.

The Orioles will never win with Andy MacPhail. It simply won't happen. He lost in Chicago and he's lost in Baltimore. I just can't get past the fact that fans are ok with continuing to lose because they are so afraid of somebody else being worse. It can't get any worse than 5th place folks. With MacPhail gone, there's hope. If he's back, there's no hope whatsoever until he's gone.

[crissfan172]

Man where do I begin...

I've invested far more time and effort than anybody in Maine (and probably a lot of folks in Baltimore too) in following and supporting this team. I've flown down for games, bought merchandise and most importantly I live and die by the Orioles still after all this losing. And that is why it would be hard to walk away, but really the best thing for me if the franchise continues on the path it is on now...

When I hear people want MacPhail back, it really makes me angry, so much to the point where I feel it taking over me. It puts unneeded stress in my life where there is stress already. I can't and won't go through another offseason of that. Following this team is supposed to be fun, a break from the daily stresses in life and it just isn't right now and hasn't been for some time.

The hardest part is knowing you've invested 14 years of watching a team continuously lose, and they still don't care enough to reward you for your support. I just don't understand why the club wouldn't get it after 14 years of the same result and now it being the worst results the club has ever seen.

The Orioles will never win with Andy MacPhail. It simply won't happen. He lost in Chicago and he's lost in Baltimore. I just can't get past the fact that fans are ok with continuing to lose because they are so afraid of somebody else being worse. It can't get any worse than 5th place folks. With MacPhail gone, there's hope. If he's back, there's no hope whatsoever until he's gone.

You're not going anywhere. It's clear as day to me. There's something you have that won't let you walk away, even if you really want to. That thing is passion. You said it yourself. You've invested countless hours supporting this team. You're constantly trying to find a way for them to compete, year after year. That kind of dedication can't just be shut off. You may try to let go, but it's just not that easy. Trust me...I know. I feel the same way about this team, and I would love to not care about every pitch, but I do. It's like a disease that consumes you, and there's just no escape from it.

Your agenda and repetitive rhetoric is the only thing that turns people off. The passion you have for this team is admirable, and I'd hate to see you leave it all behind. Even though this team drives you insane, that's a big hole to fill in your life. Personally, I hope you do leave, because if you can get away from the misery this team has put us through without leaving a gaping void, then you're a lucky guy. I'm just not sure it's possible.

[ChaosLex]

So, this time you believe Heyman? When he said working for PA is the toughest job in the sport, you laughed that off as him as a PA basher.

So, which is it? Is Heyman right or not? Do you trust him or not?

Trea, could you comment on this?

[Dipper9]

That's the problem really. He's completely out of touch with the fanbase and doesn't seem to care about the long 14 year losing streak IMO.

He only sees one way to do things, and while we've improved our record each year, it's been 4 years and we haven't seen 70 wins yet and yet his predecessors were fired with better results.

Syd Thrift won more than 70 games multiple times and he was senile.

This is hilarious, and quite true. MacPhail has been unsuccessful in his 4 + years and its time for him to move on.

In the words of the late great Owen Hart, "Enough, is enough, and its time for a change!"

[glorydays]

Buck is freak'n Zeus until he meets with PA and AM after the season. Either one of two things happened... Either PA and Buck agreed before the meeting that they want AM back in some capacity or PA went off and offered this to AM without Buck's approval - which proves he continues to be a meddling idiot.

Now... Buck is a mere mortal just like the rest of us.

[weams]

Weams without putting you too much on the spot...In terms of the front office/GM role - what do you want to happen, what do you believe Angelos wants, what do you think will happen?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/I1wg1DNHbNU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[weams]

Roch says Buck is headed back to Baltimore today.

[Chevytrckman3]

I don't want MacPhail back. He's had his chance. He pulled off a nice trade or two, but thats really all he has done. This team is in no better shape now, then when he took over. And you can make a case, it's worse off.

However, why would he or anyone want to be GM of the Baltimore Orioles? You have an owner that won't allow you to do your job. And now, you have a manager, making decisions on who the new GM should be. What other organization in MLB allows the manager to influence who the GM is? Isn't usually the other way around? I've come to the conclusion, the Orioles are just in their own little bizzaro world. Up is down, day is night, black is white.

Instead of a big name GM, i'd rather see the Orioles get a 28 year old out of TB's organization or something, and see if they can catch lightning in a bottle with a young up and coming GM who is up to speed on how things are done in MLB in this era. Not someone like MacPhail, who is still stuck in the 80's.

[TiredofLosing20]

I don't want MacPhail back. He's had his chance. He pulled off a nice trade or two, but thats really all he has done. This team is in no better shape now, then when he took over. And you can make a case, it's worse off..

If you don't understand why this statement couldn't be further from the truth than I don't know what to tell you.

[Chevytrckman3]

If you don't understand why this statement couldn't be further from the truth than I don't know what to tell you.

Instead of being a smartass, care to explain how this team is in any better shape?

[weams]

If you don't understand why this statement couldn't be further from the truth than I don't know what to tell you.Andy MacPhail will likely be the next commissioner of baseball. I will not go into all the reasons this is so but it is quite probable. Peter Angelos is aware of this fact. I hope no matter what the result of the negotiation this month is that Mr. MacPhail leaves with the fond feelings that he has always had about the Baltimore Orioles. Whenever he decides to leave.

[TiredofLosing20]

Instead of being a smartass, care to explain how this team is in any better shape?

Instead of making inaccurate general statements care to explain how this team is worse off than when he took over?

[weams]

This decision is completely in the hands of Andy MacPhail. Whatever happens, it will be because Andy wants it to be so.

[Chevytrckman3]

Instead of making inaccurate general statements care to explain how this team is worse off than when he took over?

Nice way to dodge the question.

1. He put all of his eggs in one basket with the young starters, and that failed.
2. He's done nothing to improve the farm system, which now has all of it's hopes in Machado,, and now Bundy.
3. No money invested in foreign players.
4. Continues to sign cheap mid-tier players.
5. And the biggest one of all, we haven't improved in the standings.

Those aren't general statements, those are facts. Care to prove any of those are incorrect?

[Sports Guy]

Man where do I begin...

I've invested far more time and effort than anybody in Maine (and probably a lot of folks in Baltimore too) in following and supporting this team. I've flown down for games, bought merchandise and most importantly I live and die by the Orioles still after all this losing. And that is why it would be hard to walk away, but really the best thing for me if the franchise continues on the path it is on now...

When I hear people want MacPhail back, it really makes me angry, so much to the point where I feel it taking over me. It puts unneeded stress in my life where there is stress already. I can't and won't go through another offseason of that. Following this team is supposed to be fun, a break from the daily stresses in life and it just isn't right now and hasn't been for some time.

The hardest part is knowing you've invested 14 years of watching a team continuously lose, and they still don't care enough to reward you for your support. I just don't understand why the club wouldn't get it after 14 years of the same result and now it being the worst results the club has ever seen.

The Orioles will never win with Andy MacPhail. It simply won't happen. He lost in Chicago and he's lost in Baltimore. I just can't get past the fact that fans are ok with continuing to lose because they are so afraid of somebody else being worse. It can't get any worse than 5th place folks. With MacPhail gone, there's hope. If he's back, there's no hope whatsoever until he's gone.The fact that you continue to want to pin this on AM is ridiculous.

[ShaneDawg85]

Man where do I begin...

I've invested far more time and effort than anybody in Maine (and probably a lot of folks in Baltimore too) in following and supporting this team. I've flown down for games, bought merchandise and most importantly I live and die by the Orioles still after all this losing. And that is why it would be hard to walk away, but really the best thing for me if the franchise continues on the path it is on now...

When I hear people want MacPhail back, it really makes me angry, so much to the point where I feel it taking over me. It puts unneeded stress in my life where there is stress already. I can't and won't go through another offseason of that. Following this team is supposed to be fun, a break from the daily stresses in life and it just isn't right now and hasn't been for some time.

The hardest part is knowing you've invested 14 years of watching a team continuously lose, and they still don't care enough to reward you for your support. I just don't understand why the club wouldn't get it after 14 years of the same result and now it being the worst results the club has ever seen.

The Orioles will never win with Andy MacPhail. It simply won't happen. He lost in Chicago and he's lost in Baltimore. I just can't get past the fact that fans are ok with continuing to lose because they are so afraid of somebody else being worse. It can't get any worse than 5th place folks. With MacPhail gone, there's hope. If he's back, there's no hope whatsoever until he's gone.

Enough of the "fans are ok with losing argument." Just, enough. It's a bloated, wrong statement, and you know it. Everyone is tired of losing, I am, and I guarantee everybody else on the board and in the Orioles fanbase is. But, what separates so many fans from you, and other fans, is that we recognize the common denominator. We recognize the one thing that has been common in every aspect of the Orioles demise from being a playoff team. Hint, it's not Andy MacPhail. It's not Jim Beattie, it wasn't Mike Flanagan, it's not Dave or John Stockstill, or Richie Bancells, or any other scape goat anyone wants to conveniently levy blame upon to escape reality.

If you want to believe that somebody other than this one common denominator is at fault, fine, go ahead, be my guest. You'll still be wrong, but be my guest. But, do not for one second tell me that the fans are ok with losing, or that somehow liking or finding fault with whatever scapegoat you conveniently believe is more responsible than the one common denominator means they're ok with losing. Because they're not, never have been, and never will be. Period.

[Sports Guy]

Trea, could you comment on this?I have asked him this twice now...and never a response.

Its like when he brings up something Grimed1 says and then when you say, well he also said Fielder won't come here, he ignores that.

Its all about what he wants to hear.

[ShaneDawg85]

That's the problem really. He's completely out of touch with the fanbase and doesn't seem to care about the long 14 year losing streak IMO.

He only sees one way to do things, and while we've improved our record each year, it's been 4 years and we haven't seen 70 wins yet and yet his predecessors were fired with better results.

Syd Thrift won more than 70 games multiple times and he was senile.

Sid Thrift had a team that won 70 games once. Count it, once. Last time I checked that doesn't constitute multiple 70 win seasons, and spare me the that's more than Andy MacPhail has one garbage that I know you'll spew out. More importantly, since when did 70 wins become a barometer for success? It's not, it sucks, it's terrible, and Sid Thrift was a far worse GM than Andy MacPhail is or ever was, and any intelligent baseball fan knows that and doesn't even need to look at the records to know it.

[Chevytrckman3]

Enough of the "fans are ok with losing argument." Just, enough. It's a bloated, wrong statement, and you know it. Everyone is tired of losing, I am, and I guarantee everybody else on the board and in the Orioles fanbase is. But, what separates so many fans from you, and other fans, is that we recognize the common denominator. We recognize the one thing that has been common in every aspect of the Orioles demise from being a playoff team. Hint, it's not Andy MacPhail. It's not Jim Beattie, it wasn't Mike Flanagan, it's not Dave or John Stockstill, or Richie Bancells, or any other scape goat anyone wants to conveniently levy blame upon to escape reality.

If you want to believe that somebody other than this one common denominator is at fault, fine, go ahead, be my guest. You'll still be wrong, but be my guest. But, do not for one second tell me that the fans are ok with losing, or that somehow liking or finding fault with whatever scapegoat you conveniently believe is more responsible than the one common denominator means they're ok with losing. Because they're not, never have been, and never will be. Period.


I don't believe the fans aren't tired of losing. But, it has seemed alot have become more content with it. What can you do about it as a fan? All you can do is make your feelings known. And JTrea does that. His opinions may get old, but they're his opinions.

[ShaneDawg85]

I don't believe the fans aren't tired of losing. But, it has seemed alot have become more content with it. What can you do about it as a fan? All you can do is make your feelings known. And JTrea does that. His opinions may get old, but they're his opinions.

When an opinion becomes a sweeping declaration about an entire fanbase, one that is wrong, despite all the posts on this very message board that shows the fanbase can't take the losing anymore, it deserves to be called out.

[Chevytrckman3]

When an opinion becomes a sweeping declaration about an entire fanbase, one that is wrong wrong, despite all the posts on this very message board that shows the fanbase can't take the losing anymore, it deserves to be called out.

I agree with you. But, like I said, I believe the fan base has become a little content with losing. Can you blame them really. The organization seems to accept it, why shouldn't the fans. This is the first time I can ever remember, being able to count the number of games I watched from beginning to end on two hands. I want to have a reason to watch this team again, but PA just doesn't give me one right now.

[DrungoHazewood]

I agree with you. But, like I said, I believe the fan base has become a little content with losing. Can you blame them really. The organization seems to accept it, why shouldn't the fans. This is the first time I can ever remember, being able to count the number of games I watched from beginning to end on two hands. I want to have a reason to watch this team again, but PA just doesn't give me one right now.

I never once understood this idea that the fanbase is content with losing. Of course they're not. Of course they would love to win. Of course they hate OPACY filled 10% every night, except when it's filled up with Yanks and Sox fans.

You could probably find 1000 guys who'd cut off their pinky fingers for an O's championship.

But why cut off your pinky finger when the end result is just going to be another 70-92 season?

[TiredofLosing20]

Nice way to dodge the question.

1. He put all of his eggs in one basket with the young starters, and that failed.
2. He's done nothing to improve the farm system, which now has all of it's hopes in Machado,, and now Bundy.
3. No money invested in foreign players.
4. Continues to sign cheap mid-tier players.
5. And the biggest one of all, we haven't improved in the standings.

Those aren't general statements, those are facts. Care to prove any of those are incorrect?

1. The team actually has a real spring training facility

2. Your assertion that we are spending “0” internationally is false (see Uehara, also see Schoop, Jonathan) I do agree that we should be doing more. Can you tell me about the international efforts prior to AM?

3. The ML club is better younger and cheaper at the following positions.
• C
• LF
• CF
• SS
• 1B (if you figure Reynolds at 1B)

4. The average age of the lineup went from nearly 31 yr (that included at 23 yr old Markakis) to 28

5. The current team has much more financial flexibility than it did in 2007. In 2007 this team had the following contracts
• Walker (35) – 2yr $9mm remaining
• Bradford (32) – 2yr $7.3mm remaining
• Baez (29) – 2yr $13.3mm remaining
• Tejada (33) - 2yr $29.6mm remaining
• Hernandez (31) – 2yr $16mm remaining

6. There is actual potential in the rotation for next year. The 2007 rotation of Cabrera, Trachsel, Bedard, Guthrie and Burress with maybe a little Olson sprinkled in.

These are a few ways this organization is better than it was in 2007. The biggest reason this team is in better shape is the financial flexibility it now has that it didn't when AM took over. If you want to ignore that then thats up to you.

I am not here to say that I want AM to stay. Don't get me wrong I think he has had enough time and I am disappointed with the results but to state that the team is in no better shape than it was when he took over is simply short-sighted.

[Chevytrckman3]

1. The team actually has a real spring training facility

2. Your assertion that we are spending “0” internationally is false (see Uehara, also see Schoop, Jonathan) I do agree that we should be doing more. Can you tell me about the international efforts prior to AM?

3. The ML club is better younger and cheaper at the following positions.
• C
• LF
• CF
• SS
• 1B (if you figure Reynolds at 1B)

4. The average age of the lineup went from nearly 31 yr (that included at 23 yr old Markakis) to 28

5. The current team has much more financial flexibility than it did in 2007. In 2007 this team had the following contracts
• Walker (35) – 2yr $9mm remaining
• Bradford (32) – 2yr $7.3mm remaining
• Baez (29) – 2yr $13.3mm remaining
• Tejada (33) - 2yr $29.6mm remaining
• Hernandez (31) – 2yr $16mm remaining

6. There is actual potential in the rotation for next year. The 2007 rotation of Cabrera, Trachsel, Bedard, Guthrie and Burress with maybe a little Olson sprinkled in.

These are a few ways this organization is better than it was in 2007. The biggest reason this team is in better shape is the financial flexibility it now has that it didn't when AM took over. If you want to ignore that then thats up to you.

I am not here to say that I want AM to stay. Don't get me wrong I think he has had enough time and I am disappointed with the results but to state that the team is in no better shape than it was when he took over is simply short-sighted.

You make valid points. I really only meant you can make a case, in some areas we are worse off. The financial flexibility is great, if the Orioles actually use it to improve the team. I guess my frustration has finally caused me to become irrational. Bottom line to me, MacPhail had a chance, and it didn't work. It's time to move on. Do I think a new GM will make a huge difference? No, not as long as the owner is Peter Angelos. But, with change comes hope. And that's all we really have as fans of the Baltimore Orioles.

[hoosiers]

Man where do I begin...

I've invested far more time and effort than anybody in Maine (and probably a lot of folks in Baltimore too) in following and supporting this team. I've flown down for games, bought merchandise and most importantly I live and die by the Orioles still after all this losing. And that is why it would be hard to walk away, but really the best thing for me if the franchise continues on the path it is on now...

When I hear people want MacPhail back, it really makes me angry, so much to the point where I feel it taking over me. It puts unneeded stress in my life where there is stress already. I can't and won't go through another offseason of that. Following this team is supposed to be fun, a break from the daily stresses in life and it just isn't right now and hasn't been for some time.

The hardest part is knowing you've invested 14 years of watching a team continuously lose, and they still don't care enough to reward you for your support. I just don't understand why the club wouldn't get it after 14 years of the same result and now it being the worst results the club has ever seen.

The Orioles will never win with Andy MacPhail. It simply won't happen. He lost in Chicago and he's lost in Baltimore. I just can't get past the fact that fans are ok with continuing to lose because they are so afraid of somebody else being worse. It can't get any worse than 5th place folks. With MacPhail gone, there's hope. If he's back, there's no hope whatsoever until he's gone.

No one on this board has posted they are "ok with continuing to lose" ...... But most are realistic about our financial situation, our ownership situation, and the ability of an individual(s) to effect change within an organization within appropriate time periods. You are not the only one who wants the Os to be best in class in player development, amateur talent spend, scouting, signing quality free agents, etc, but you seem to have the most unrealistic expectations of pace of improvement, availability of $ to spend and the type of free agents who will seriously consider Bmore when about 30 other teams are trying to do the very same things you want and already have better financial resources and/or infrastructures in place than Bmore does.

Believe it or not, you are not the only one disappointed with losing seasons, and you are not the only one deeply invested in the team. Your vision of moving the organization forward is not the only one here and previous iterations of that vision have proven flawed.

Andy MacPhail has moved this organization forward in many ways. He knows what it takes to build a quality organization and his effort to do that is not complete. AM is not a perfect GM, but he has done well to improve many of the areas we were hoping he would improve when he was hired. Our organizational talent base is improved, our draft budget is expanded, our international effort is significantly better, our front office is better, etc. There are clearly many areas for AM and our organization to still improve and I hope he can find that improvement (especially in areas of compensatory draft picks and short-term free agent signings).

I do not believe after the past year's worth of activity including multiple high quality trades, emergence of multiple international prospects, etc that AM should be let go at this point. Sorry to make you angry, but I do appreciate the comic relief you have provided over the years.

[TiredofLosing20]

You make valid points. I really only meant you can make a case, in some areas we are worse off. The financial flexibility is great, if the Orioles actually use it to improve the team. I guess my frustration has finally caused me to become irrational. Bottom line to me, MacPhail had a chance, and it didn't work. It's time to move on. Do I think a new GM will make a huge difference? No, not as long as the owner is Peter Angelos. But, with change comes hope. And that's all we really have as fans of the Baltimore Orioles.

See I see it differently, I don't think we are worse off in really any way. Thats just how bad I think things were when AM took over. The key here to me is options. We didn't have options when AM took over. There were a lot of dollars tied up in really crappy contracts. Some of those contracts AM was able to shed others just expired because they were so bad no one wanted them. The key is that AM didn't lock us into any albatrosses going forward. The closest thing probably at this point is BRob. Has he made bad signings, yes obviously Gonzalez and Gregg were bad (tho the Gonzalez signing to me isn't nearly as bad as now with Strop) but they weren't crippling. Most of AM's mistakes FA wise have been 1 yr and at worst 2 yr deals.

The bottom line to me is that we have a team that in my opinion has 10 or so guys that I believe can be part of a playoff team not just next year but for the next 3 or 4 years, plus we have the financial flexibility to add to that core (thru trade or FA). We simply didn't have that in 2007. That can be directly attributable to AM.

Like I said, at this point I would prefer to simply shake hands, thank the guy for what he has done and look for a GM that can take us to the next level. I think Frobby made a statement in another thread that the period between October 2010 and now has been the best during his tenure and I tend to agree with that. He really did a lot more than just make "two good trades"

[TiredofLosing20]

No one on this board has posted they are "ok with continuing to lose"

I am actually ok with losing.... I just like to be ironic.

[Frobby]

This decision is completely in the hands of Andy MacPhail. Whatever happens, it will be because Andy wants it to be so.

That seems logical considering how this is playing out. I wonder what's going on in MacPhail's head? He was noncommital about this from the very start of the year. It seems very strange to me that he still doesn't know what he wants to do, a week after the season has ended.

I think he was 90% of the way out the door in August, but the team's strong finish has made him think that maybe the team isn't that far from turning the corner and that he'd like to be around to enjoy that.

[TiredofLosing20]

Andy MacPhail will likely be the next commissioner of baseball. I will not go into all the reasons this is so but it is quite probable. Peter Angelos is aware of this fact. I hope no matter what the result of the negotiation this month is that Mr. MacPhail leaves with the fond feelings that he has always had about the Baltimore Orioles. Whenever he decides to leave.

I like puzzles wrapped up in an enigma as much as the next guy but sheesh.. :D

I have often thought that PA sees the value of having someone intimate with the struggles of a mid market team battling the Red Sox and the Yankees year in and year out as an ally in the commissioners seat.

It may end up being AM's greatest contribution to the O's...

[grimed1]

I agree with you. But, like I said, I believe the fan base has become a little content with losing. Can you blame them really. The organization seems to accept it, why shouldn't the fans. This is the first time I can ever remember, being able to count the number of games I watched from beginning to end on two hands. I want to have a reason to watch this team again, but PA just doesn't give me one right now.

The O's fanbase is dwindling. I don't think they are content but just dwindling away. The Sun did not even carry a story on the O's,twice in September when they were off. I think the fanbase is not content but the O's are almost becoming irrevelant except for the diehards.

[NewMarketSean]

The O's fanbase is dwindling. I don't think they are content but just dwindling away. The Sun did not even carry a story on the O's,twice in September when they were off. I think the fanbase is not content but the O's are almost becoming irrevelant except for the diehards.

They are about as important to the metro area as the Blast.

[Pedro Cerrano]

They are about as important to the metro area as the Blast.

Come on.....

[NewMarketSean]

Come on.....

They draw similar crowds.

[Pedro Cerrano]

They draw similar crowds.

Great, are Blast games covered on the front page of the Sun? Are Blast games talked about on WBAL 11 every night? Do the Blast get discussed on Sportsline on WBAL every night like the Orioles were last night (with Bret Hollander)?

Is Blast Opening Night a city-wide holiday like the O's opening day is? You see a lot of people wearing Blast jerseys and hats around town?

What a ridiculous assertion.

[DrungoHazewood]

They are about as important to the metro area as the Blast.


Come on.....


They draw similar crowds.

Hyperbole alert! The Orioles' average attendance is nearly double the capacity of 1st Mariner Arena, and about three times the Blast's average attendance. And the O's play 81 home games to the Blast's 10.

[DrungoHazewood]

Great, are Blast games covered on the front page of the Sun? Are Blast games talked about on WBAL 11 every night? Do the Blast get discussed on Sportsline on WBAL every night like the Orioles were last night (with Bret Hollander)?

Is Blast Opening Night a city-wide holiday like the O's opening day is? You see a lot of people wearing Blast jerseys and hats around town?

What a ridiculous assertion.

Until four minutes ago I wasn't sure if the Blast still existed, and I'm both a Baltimore sports fan and one of the Hangout's more noted soccer fans.

[JTrea81]

When an opinion becomes a sweeping declaration about an entire fanbase, one that is wrong, despite all the posts on this very message board that shows the fanbase can't take the losing anymore, it deserves to be called out.

It wasn't meant to be a sweeping declaration, rather just some fans seem to want MacPhail back, and since MacPhail=losing, those fans must be content with losing. That's the rationality to me.

We've never won anything with MacPhail. He has a sub .500 record in Chicago and Baltimore. He won two WS titles in Minnesota in the early 90s and nothing since.

There are some that think Peter Angelos won't change his stripes, but the difference being this team has won before with Angelos as owner. If those think Angelos won't change, why do those same people suddenly think MacPhail will with his track record of sub-mediocrity. He's doing the exact same thing as in Chicago with the same result and that was without Peter Angelos. Yeah he's made some moves that improved this club, but it's been 4 years and we have yet to break 70 wins. And the GM position is one that needs to yield instant results after you see the likes of Anthopoulos and Epstein taking over and making immediate impacts.

Slow and steady is no longer acceptable, especially for a franchise that has lost for 14 years straight and 10 before MacPhail arrived. We shouldn't have to wait 10 more years to win 85 games.

So yeah I get angry when I hear people want MacPhail back. It simply just shows that there is no urgency to win anymore and that's just accepted because the Orioles are the Orioles under Peter Angelos. MacPhail may not be the only problem in this franchise, but it's clear he's no solution. And therefore why continue to have a problem that could be solved with another voice. There's a chance the person could be worse, but like I said, 5th place for 4 years is pretty bad. There's another chance the new GM could make huge changes that would impact the organization in a major way and get us contending again a lot sooner than people think.

We know MacPhail gives us no chance other than the same course we've been on for the past 4 years and all that gets us is the end of our season in September or more realistically speaking July.

So why does anybody want that?

[Sports Guy]

It wasn't meant to be a sweeping declaration, rather just some fans seem to want MacPhail back, and since MacPhail=losing, those fans must be content with losing. That's the rationality to me.

We've never won anything with MacPhail. He has a sub .500 record in Chicago and Baltimore. He won two WS titles in Minnesota in the early 90s and nothing since.

There are some that think Peter Angelos won't change his stripes, but the difference being this team has won before with Angelos as owner. If those think Angelos won't change, why do those same people suddenly think MacPhail will with his track record of sub-mediocrity. He's doing the exact same thing as in Chicago with the same result and that was without Peter Angelos. Yeah he's made some moves that improved this club, but it's been 4 years and we have yet to break 70 wins. And the GM position is one that needs to yield instant results after you see the likes of Anthopoulos and Epstein taking over and making immediate impacts.

Slow and steady is no longer acceptable, especially for a franchise that has lost for 14 years straight and 10 before MacPhail arrived. We shouldn't have to wait 10 more years to win 85 games.

So yeah I get angry when I hear people want MacPhail back. It simply just shows that there is no urgency to win anymore and that's just accepted because the Orioles are the Orioles under Peter Angelos. MacPhail may not be the only problem in this franchise, but it's clear he's no solution. And therefore why continue to have a problem that could be solved with another voice. There's a chance the person could be worse, but like I said, 5th place for 4 years is pretty bad. There's another chance the new GM could make huge changes that would impact the organization in a major way and get us contending again a lot sooner than people think.

We know MacPhail gives us no chance other than the same course we've been on for the past 4 years and all that gets us is the end of our season in September or more realistically speaking July.

So why does anybody want that?If you are going to use the excuse that PA has won before, well then AM has won 2 WS titles before.

Of course, neither one of them is relevant now but you are treating one as relevant and the other as not...and that's wrong.

[TiredofLosing20]

It wasn't meant to be a sweeping declaration, rather just some fans seem to want MacPhail back, and since MacPhail=losing, those fans must be content with losing. That's the rationality to me.

That is a pretty sweeping declaration if I have ever seen one.

[JTrea81]

If you are going to use the excuse that PA has won before, well then AM has won 2 WS titles before.

Of course, neither one of them is relevant now but you are treating one as relevant and the other as not...and that's wrong.

Perhaps neither change their stripes, so as you say, their past successes are irrelevant. But there are some that want MacPhail back because they think he'll change with even more autonomy.

He won't.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Man, imagine where we'd be if we had just signed Mark Teixeira.

[JTrea81]

That is a pretty sweeping declaration if I have ever seen one.

I said "some" not all.

MacPhail overall in his career has lost. He's had no sustained success period in his career since he left the Twins.

The facts are the facts. People say they want MacPhail to continue doing what he's doing, and while some of his moves have been payoffs, the result at the ML level is still the same - losing.

And that's just like it was for the majority of his time in Chicago. He stole Lee and Ramirez for example, but where did it get him?

Too many people are looking at the indvidual moves and not the overall result. And that's the only thing that matters and what separates the contenders.

MacPhail could trade Robert Andino for Joey Votto and if the Orioles only won 72 games, he'd still lose. Yeah the trade would be brilliant but the overall result would not be there because of his other shortcomings in running an organization.

[Pedro Cerrano]

I said "some" not all.

MacPhail overall in his career has lost. He's had no sustained success period in his career since he left the Twins.

The facts are the facts. People say they want MacPhail to continue doing what he's doing, and while some of his moves have been payoffs, the result at the ML level is still the same - losing.

And that's just like it was for the majority of his time in Chicago. He stole Lee and Ramirez for example, but where did it get him?

Too many people are looking at the indvidual moves and not the overall result. And that's the only thing that matters and what separates the contenders.

Is it his fault that pretty much none of our young pitchers have panned out or that Matt Wieters was looking like a colossal bust until the last two months of the season? Some things are just out of a person's control. AM did a text-book rebuild, but if the guys you draft/bring in fail to live up to expectations then any GM will struggle (unless you have an unlimited budget).

I get that you are sore at AM because he's not aggressive in bringing in guys like AGon, Teixeira and Fielder but you need to realize that those players by themselves won't make us winners. If we give Fielder $180MM and Brian Matusz has another season with an ERA approaching 10 it really won't matter if Fielder has his best season ever.

[Dr. FLK]

Hyperbole alert! The Orioles' average attendance is nearly double the capacity of 1st Mariner Arena, and about three times the Blast's average attendance. And the O's play 81 home games to the Blast's 10.

Wow. I find it really despressing that the O's average crowd is only 3x that ofthe Blast.

[JTrea81]

Is it his fault that pretty much none of our young pitchers have panned out or that Matt Wieters was looking like a colossal bust until the last two months of the season? Some things are just out of a person's control. AM did a text-book rebuild, but if the guys you draft/bring in fail to live up to expectations than any GM will struggle (unless you have an unlimited budget).

I get that you are sore at AM because he's not aggressive in bringing in guys like AGon, Teixeira and Fielder but you need to realize that those players by themselves won't make us winners. If we give Fielder $180MM and Brian Matusz has another season with an ERA approaching 10 it really won't matter if Fielder has his best season ever.

Lots of things went wrong in Chicago too. So are you saying MacPhail's just been unlucky since he left the Twins?

Injuries happen, performance issues happen, it's part of baseball. A good GM can have his team overcome them. MacPhail's problem is that he had no Plan B and couldn't adapt to changing circumstances. It was all or nothing with the young arms even though there was opportunity to modify that plan. The franchise's success depended on a few arms backed with overachievers

Guess what? That's a pretty huge problem if they don't pan out. You simply can't build a team like that.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Lots of things went wrong in Chicago too. So are you saying MacPhail's just been unlucky since he left the Twins?

Injuries happen, performance issues happen, it's part of baseball. A good GM can have his team overcome them. MacPhail's problem is that he had no Plan B and couldn't adapt to changing circumstances.

What sort of plan B would you have liked for him to have had when basically 4/5 of his starting staff (which were highly touted) all proved to be unreliable at best?

[JTrea81]

What sort of plan B would you have liked for him to have had when basically 4/5 of his starting staff (which were highly touted) all proved to be unreliable at best?

Sign some arms. Trade some younger arms while they are still prospects for established pitching talent.

Don't assume or depend on all your young arms reaching their ceilings to contend.

[Dr. FLK]

Lots of things went wrong in Chicago too. So are you saying MacPhail's just been unlucky since he left the Twins?

Injuries happen, performance issues happen, it's part of baseball. A good GM can have his team overcome them. MacPhail's problem is that he had no Plan B and couldn't adapt to changing circumstances. It was all or nothing with the young arms even though there was opportunity to modify that plan. The franchise's success depended on a few arms backed with overachievers

Guess what? That's a pretty huge problem if they don't pan out. You simply can't build a team like that.

I sort of agree with this.

AM has done a good job of making some trades for the Orioles. No doubt about that. However, he still fails to use all talent-acquisition avenues for the improvement organizational depth. So, while he has succeeded at bringing in some nice pieces, he has not been able to overhaul the talent in a weak organization that drastically needs it. Subsequently, when top prospects don't pan out, there is no one else waiting in the wings. His "plan" has added some help, but no where near enough to save this shinking ship.

[Dr. FLK]

What sort of plan B would you have liked for him to have had when basically 4/5 of his starting staff (which were highly touted) all proved to be unreliable at best?

Plan B: Replace scouting/development people because they keep acquiring/developing arms that aren't any good.

[scOtt]

What sort of plan B would you have liked for him to have had when basically 4/5 of his starting staff (which were highly touted) all proved to be unreliable at best?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Dipper9]

Great, are Blast games covered on the front page of the Sun? Are Blast games talked about on WBAL 11 every night? Do the Blast get discussed on Sportsline on WBAL every night like the Orioles were last night (with Bret Hollander)?

Is Blast Opening Night a city-wide holiday like the O's opening day is? You see a lot of people wearing Blast jerseys and hats around town?

What a ridiculous assertion.

Were you there when the Blast won the (whatever the hell the indoor soccer title is)?

No, I wasn't, because they aren't even on TV. And if they are, I don't know where?

[vatech1994]

No one on this board has posted they are "ok with continuing to lose" ...... But most are realistic about our financial situation, our ownership situation, and the ability of an individual(s) to effect change within an organization within appropriate time periods. You are not the only one who wants the Os to be best in class in player development, amateur talent spend, scouting, signing quality free agents, etc, but you seem to have the most unrealistic expectations of pace of improvement, availability of $ to spend and the type of free agents who will seriously consider Bmore when about 30 other teams are trying to do the very same things you want and already have better financial resources and/or infrastructures in place than Bmore does.

Believe it or not, you are not the only one disappointed with losing seasons, and you are not the only one deeply invested in the team. Your vision of moving the organization forward is not the only one here and previous iterations of that vision have proven flawed.

Andy MacPhail has moved this organization forward in many ways. He knows what it takes to build a quality organization and his effort to do that is not complete. AM is not a perfect GM, but he has done well to improve many of the areas we were hoping he would improve when he was hired. Our organizational talent base is improved, our draft budget is expanded, our international effort is significantly better, our front office is better, etc. There are clearly many areas for AM and our organization to still improve and I hope he can find that improvement (especially in areas of compensatory draft picks and short-term free agent signings).

I do not believe after the past year's worth of activity including multiple high quality trades, emergence of multiple international prospects, etc that AM should be let go at this point. Sorry to make you angry, but I do appreciate the comic relief you have provided over the years.

outstanding post IMHO

[TiredofLosing20]

I said "some" not all.

Thats not the part I found to be "sweeping"



and since MacPhail=losing, those fans must be content with losing. That's the rationality to me.


That logic (or illogic) is the part that I found to be "sweeping". The "some fans" that want AM back may want him back because they feel he gives them the best shot at turning this organization around given the PA factor. Also they may recognize that had the pitching staff pitched even remotely close to what it did at the end of 2010, the 2011 team would have likely been better than .500 and closing in on 90 wins.

I am not sure how you have plan B (which I am not even sure what than looks like) when plan A appears to be working as it did for the final two months of 2010. The young pitching looked to mostly everybody to be finally maturing and the offense was crappy. AM went out improved the offense and the young pitching monumentally failed, it happens.

At this point, I am probably ready for a change at the top not necessarily because I believe he did a bad job but because I don't think he can progress us much further than this. The problem is I have zero confidence that AM's replacement will even fair as well as he did and quite frankly had your approach been taken we would be about a 75 win team with about 50 million (in annual salary) in really crappy contracts.

[DrungoHazewood]

Don't assume or depend on all your young arms reaching their ceilings to contend.

That was never the plan. If Arrieta, Britton, Tillman, Bergesen, and Matusz had been 2.0 win, league-average starters, far from most of their ceilings, the Orioles would have been about an 80-win team. And that 80-win team would be in a position to make some moves in free agency and become a contender. In fact, isn't that your dream? A team chock full of average pitchers, but also loaded up with fat first basemen and assorted other premium sluggers?

[weams]

That was never the plan. If Arrieta, Britton, Tillman, Bergesen, and Matusz had been 2.0 win, league-average starters, far from most of their ceilings, the Orioles would have been about an 80-win team. And that 80-win team would be in a position to make some moves in free agency and become a contender. In fact, isn't that your dream? A team chock full of average pitchers, but also loaded up with fat first basemen and assorted other premium sluggers?I have been watching him in the post season. He's good, but he sure is fat. His defense is in no way superior to Reynolds.

[glorydays]

Anyone here mention that Thrift took a 78 win team his first year and finished his tenure with a team that lost 63 and 67 games? Also, even though it is small and still disappointing - after 3 years of an improving win total - at least AM's teams are moving in the right direction toward .500 ball and not away from it.

[The Rick]

Britt just posted an article (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111006&content_id=25534270&vkey=news_bal&c_id=bal&partnerId=rss_bal&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter), no news though really:


But with the team's 2011 season more than a week old, and given how tight-lipped and under-the-radar MacPhail has been since joining the organization in 2007, it wouldn't be a total shock if a decision isn't made public until MacPhail's contract expires Oct. 31.


For Showalter, who was heavily rumored to be moving upstairs if MacPhail leaves, that expectation has also shifted and it's a safer bet that he will return to the dugout in 2012. Showalter, who is signed through the '13 season, is expected to play a significant role in how the organization moves forward, regardless of his formal title.

[TonySoprano]

Britt just posted an article (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111006&content_id=25534270&vkey=news_bal&c_id=bal&partnerId=rss_bal&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter), no news though really:
But with the team's 2011 season more than a week old, and given how tight-lipped and under-the-radar MacPhail has been since joining the organization in 2007, it wouldn't be a total shock if a decision isn't made public until MacPhail's contract expires Oct. 31.
I am not being entirely sarcastic when I say I'm surprised what passes for the "process" is underway. We are still three-four weeks away which is positively premature in Angelos' history.

[SammyBirdland]

Prediction: Bud Selig opts out of the final year of his contract and Andy MacPhail becomes commish prior to the 2012 season.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Prediction: Bud Selig opts out of the final year of his contract and Andy MacPhail becomes commish prior to the 2012 season.

While I think that Andy MacPhail has a very good chance of being the next commissioner, I still think that Bud Selig will release his grip on the position when it is pried from his cold, dead hands. Which is one thing the Orioles have in common with Major League Baseball.

[Skeletor]

While I think that Andy MacPhail has a very good chance of being the next commissioner, I still think that Bud Selig will release his grip on the position when it is pried from his cold, dead hands. Which is one thing the Orioles have in common with Major League Baseball.

Andy MacPhail would help the Os a lot more as MLB commissioner than as Os gm.

[GoldGlove21]

That was never the plan. If Arrieta, Britton, Tillman, Bergesen, and Matusz had been 2.0 win, league-average starters, far from most of their ceilings, the Orioles would have been about an 80-win team. And that 80-win team would be in a position to make some moves in free agency and become a contender. In fact, isn't that your dream? A team chock full of average pitchers, but also loaded up with fat first basemen and assorted other premium sluggers?

I agree with the overall point of your post, but the fact that Arrieta, Britton, Tillman, Bergesen and Matusz did not perform well is the point to some extent. How do you hold 4 young pitchers with limited success to pitch to average or slightly worse ERA's in the AL East. Bergesen was a question mark. Tillman had command issues. Britton has upside, but even he might have been rushed up to perform as a #3 starter. Matusz was a guy that I thought let us down the most, but I am thinking that there was more to that story. Arrieta was injured and shut down, but he wasn't half bad if we ignored 3 of his starts that really inflated his ERA.

You either have faith in the young pitching or you do not. If you do not than why even make an effort in the FA market? If you do than no matter what their 2011 numbers say, you make an effort to better the team via free agency. If those pitchers fail us as a whole than we might as well rebuild again. Deal the core because they will not be much of a core by the time that we are ready to compete on a regular basis.

[GoldGlove21]

Andy MacPhail would help the Os a lot more as MLB commissioner than as Os gm.

This is exactly what I would hope happen. Not just help the Orioles, but help small to mid-market teams compete. Just like a house, baseball needs ceilings and floors in order for everyone to live in it.

[scOtt]

This is exactly what I would hope happen. Not just help the Orioles, but help small to mid-market teams compete. Just like a house, baseball needs ceilings and floors in order for everyone to live in it.
That will all be decided with this year's CBA (which I highly doubt!) or else be put off til this new agreement expires. Commish has more influence than the President, but not much more. Commish can't dictate what happens...

[DrungoHazewood]

Anyone here mention that Thrift took a 78 win team his first year and finished his tenure with a team that lost 63 and 67 games? Also, even though it is small and still disappointing - after 3 years of an improving win total - at least AM's teams are moving in the right direction toward .500 ball and not away from it.

Given the uncertainty in records, the noise inherent in the signal, I put teams in buckets of wins. For simplicity, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90+. The O's have been firmly in the 60s bucket for years. They're in a better spot than with a senile GM, but there's no progress.