Ray Rice

[ccbird]

Just showing some love for the best playmaking RB in the NFL today. IMO, I'll take him over ever other RB regardless of criteria but I don't really think there is a doubt he is the one who is the biggest playmaker.

[The Rick]

There's a reason Ray Rice is announced last when they announce the offense. He's incredible, and can do it all. Great game for him today. I was very glad to see him get his 100+ rushing yards.

[Sports Guy]

He is great...I love having him.

But I find it difficult to justify giving him a huge contract.

[xKHx]

Marshal Faulk had a long career and Rice reminds me a lot of Faulk. I'd say you can give him a huge contract but just give an easy out at the 4 year mark. Faulk didn't drop off till he was 30. He is going to be 25 in January he has sometime of dominating left.

[Tony-OH]

He is great...I love having him.

But I find it difficult to justify giving him a huge contract.

Not me, he's as durable as any RB we've ever had. Pay the man.

[Pedro Cerrano]

The similarities between him and Matt Forte (including contract situation) is remarkable.

I'm generally opposed to giving out long-term RB deals, simply because they don't have a long shelf life and are somewhat interchangible in the right system.

However, I wouldn't cry if we locked him up.

[The Rick]

Not me, he's as durable as any RB we've ever had. Pay the man.

We've got to pay him because of how important he is to the offense. But giving him a mega deal would be a big mistake. RB's, even durable ones like Ray go downhill quick and aren't worth huge contracts. I wouldn't be opposed to a Jamal Charles'esque deal (http://www.aolnews.com/2010/12/11/jamaal-charles-signs-5-year-contract-extension-with-chiefs/), but anything near the Chris Johnson deal (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2011/09/chris-johnson-tennessee-titans-agree-to-contract-extension.html) would be a big mistake, IMHO.

[ccbird]

You have to pay him though there is a lot of speculation that we will franchise him after this year and not give him a long term deal. I don't mind locking him up as long as it's structured where cutting him or a paycut is pretty much essential after a 3 years or so. I could definitely see a Faulk career arc. Obviously, one hit can change everything but provided health I think he can be very good through his 20s.

[TradeAngelos]

Not me, he's as durable as any RB we've ever had. Pay the man.

It is not even a question, I mean I really have to question the sanity of anyone advocating not paying this man with all due respect SG. Running back shelf life yeah yeah yeah. Has anyone ever seen him take a brutal hit? I haven't. He is too elusive.

He is Marshall Faulk 2.0, and teams dream of having a RB like him. All he does is produce and he is a model citizen off the field.

What more do you want?

[Sports Guy]

It is not even a question, I mean I really have to question the sanity of anyone advocating not paying this man with all due respect SG. Running back shelf life yeah yeah yeah. Has anyone ever seen him take a brutal hit? I haven't. He is too elusive.

He is Marshall Faulk 2.0, and teams dream of having a RB like him. All he does is produce and he is a model citizen off the field.

What more do you want?Poo pooing that is pretty assinine.

RB is not a tough position to fill.

You really want to give him 30M guaranteed? Really? That's a ton of money to give to a guy who plays a position that has a shelf life of around 3 years or so.

Yes, he could be an exception, I am not doubting that possibility...but that's a hell of a gamble to take.

[Birds of B'more]

Poo pooing that is pretty assinine.

RB is not a tough position to fill.

You really want to give him 30M guaranteed? Really? That's a ton of money to give to a guy who plays a position that has a shelf life of around 3 years or so.

Yes, he could be an exception, I am not doubting that possibility...but that's a hell of a gamble to take.

In general, that's true. But when you look at how much of the Ravens offense he is responsible for, there are very few guys who can replace that. I think with guys like Rice you have to roll the dice and pay him.

[JDubs]

There is a big difference between Rice and filling the position. Rice is a true playmaker.

[BaltimoreTerp]

In general, that's true. But when you look at how much of the Ravens offense he is responsible for, there are very few guys who can replace that. I think with guys like Rice you have to roll the dice and pay him.

Yeah, but you know what is even more difficult? Replacing that production with far less cash available :p

If I had to choose, I'd probably pay him. However, I remember part of the reason he fell to the Ravens in the second round was because he was used so much over four years at Rutgers that people didn't think he would last particularly long. We had the advantage of the Irish twins taking some pressure off of him for three years, and Williams to a lesser extant this season. We need to find someone else soon, though, who can spell him at least and be Next Man Up if necessary.

[ccbird]

There is a big difference between Rice and filling the position. Rice is a true playmaker.

And that is the key. There just aren't a lot of great playmakers. It's going to be very tough to replace what Ray gives you in the passing game which right now is very important for Joe and this offense. He's always going to make an impact because of his pass catching ability even if he starts to lose a step at RB. Look at LT, he's a shell of him former shelf but still important to the Jets passing game. Bottom line is right now Ray is the best all around RB in the game. You just can't let that talent get away at 25 yrs old. Sign him to essentially a 3 year deal and go from there. I'd love to see some research but my guess is most teams are happy with the 2nd contract they give star RBs over the last decade. And you never see one get away in his prime. Can you tell me the last time a consensus top 5 RB signed with another team as a FA.

[JohnnyK27]

He is great...I love having him.

But I find it difficult to justify giving him a huge contract.

I like Rice as much as the next guy. But one thing I would fix is to have Allen be my short yardage back. I prefer to have a bigger more powerful back to puch the pile on those short yardage downs.

[The Rick]

Poo pooing that is pretty assinine.

RB is not a tough position to fill.

You really want to give him 30M guaranteed? Really? That's a ton of money to give to a guy who plays a position that has a shelf life of around 3 years or so.

Yes, he could be an exception, I am not doubting that possibility...but that's a hell of a gamble to take.

Would you be in favor of extending him with a contract like Jamal Charles got from the Chiefs? He got a 5 year/32.5MM deal, $13.5MM guaranteed.

Hopefully no one thinks giving him a Chris Johnson type deal would be a good idea.

[primetime]

Poo pooing that is pretty assinine.

RB is not a tough position to fill.

You really want to give him 30M guaranteed? Really? That's a ton of money to give to a guy who plays a position that has a shelf life of around 3 years or so.

Yes, he could be an exception, I am not doubting that possibility...but that's a hell of a gamble to take.

The problem with the bolded part is it's a bit of a misuse of the numbers. The AVERAGE shelf life of a running back is 3 years but you have to think about where that average comes from. Think about some of the running backs that have come through Baltimore, made the team, just weren't good enough and were out of the league in 1-3 years. Jason Brookins, Chris Barnes, Ernest Hunter, Jay Graham, Kenyon Cotton, etc.

For every back like Jamal Lewis, LT, Michael Turner, Marshall Faulk, there probably 10 other backs that can't stick around more than a year or 2 so it skews that average.

Ray Rice is back that's already proven he's durable and he doesn't take between the tackles beatings on a regular basis, nor is going to be a 350 carry type of back. Those are the guys that can wear down and flame out, a la Terrell Davis.

Sure, you can get a back to turn around and hand the ball off to 25 times a game and he'll average about 4 yds/carry for a couple of years, Ray Rice is not that guy, he's not a replaceable type of back. He's a Hall of Fame type talent and a game changer. You absolutely pay him and keep him here for the next 5 years.

[Sports Guy]

Would you be in favor of extending him with a contract like Jamal Charles got from the Chiefs? He got a 5 year/32.5MM deal, $13.5MM guaranteed.

Hopefully no one thinks giving him a Chris Johnson type deal would be a good idea.Yea, that deal would be fine...same as the one Gore got.

[primetime]

Would you be in favor of extending him with a contract like Jamal Charles got from the Chiefs? He got a 5 year/32.5MM deal, $13.5MM guaranteed.

Hopefully no one thinks giving him a Chris Johnson type deal would be a good idea.


Yea, that deal would be fine...same as the one Gore got.

Unfortunately, I don't see that being enough to get it done.

I'm sure you've heard the stats by now, Ray Rice has his 25th game with 100 plus yds from scrimmage since the start of the 2009 season.

He's arguably the best offensive player in the league.

[Sports Guy]

Unfortunately, I don't see that being enough to get it done.

I'm sure you've heard the stats by now, Ray Rice has his 25th game with 100 plus yds from scrimmage since the start of the 2009 season.

He's arguably the best offensive player in the league.No he's not unless you are taking QBs out of the mix. If you aren't(and QBs are offensive players), there is no argument that says Ray Rice is the best offensive player in the league.

And I agree that it won't get it done.

But its just foolish to give a RB 30M guaranteed.

[TradeAngelos]

No he's not unless you are taking QBs out of the mix. If you aren't(and QBs are offensive players), there is no argument that says Ray Rice is the best offensive player in the league.

And I agree that it won't get it done.

But its just foolish to give a RB 30M guaranteed.

Right because all the elite running backs hit age 25 and are done.

You keep going back to this "running back" label that can just be replaced easily. Ray Rice is not just an average "running back" he is a running back AND receiver. An elite one at that. He is not "replaceable". He is arguably one of the 10 best players in the entire NFL.

Would you pay a receiver who puts up 2000 yards a year $30 million guaranteed? Rice will easily go over that mark, again. He will get that and deserve every penny of it. A lot will be determined on how long the deal is. $30 over 7 years is different than $30 over 5 years obviously.

There would be 10 teams lining up to pay him that much if he hit the open market. You are paying a premier player in his prime age of 25-30 years old, it is not this huge risk you make it out to be. I got news for you when you pay ANY player in the NFL it is a huge risk because of the injury factor, the whole "running backs get hurt more than other positions" or have a "shorter shelf life is complete hogwash. Go look at NFL injury reports and tell me what you see in regards to positions, it is varied across the board.

I will ask again, have you ever seen Ray Rice take a hard hit? Ever??He is short compact and low to the ground, which helps in keeping him clean from freak injuries. And with his build and speed they are usually catching him from behind not squaring him up and delivering shots to him all game.

How did that Jamal Lewis contract work out for us?

Or how about that LT contract San Diego gave him?

Or that huge deal Marshall Faulk got from the Rams?

I could go on...and on...and on.

[Sports Guy]

Right because all the elite running backs hit age 25 and are done.

You keep going back to this "running back" label that can just be replaced easily. Ray Rice is not just an average "running back" he is a running back AND receiver. An elite one at that. He is not "replaceable". He is arguably one of the 10 best players in the entire NFL.

Would you pay a receiver who puts up 2000 yards a year $30 million guaranteed? Rice will easily go over that mark, again. He will get that and deserve every penny of it. A lot will be determined on how long the deal is. $30 over 7 years is different than $30 over 5 years obviously.

There would be 10 teams lining up to pay him that much if he hit the open market. You are paying a premier player in his prime age of 25-30 years old, it is not this huge risk you make it out to be. I got news for you when you pay ANY player in the NFL it is a huge risk because of the injury factor, the whole "running backs get hurt more than other positions" or have a "shorter shelf life is complete hogwash. Go look at NFL injury reports and tell me what you see in regards to positions, it is varied across the board.

I will ask again, have you ever seen Ray Rice take a hard hit? Ever??He is short compact and low to the ground, which helps in keeping him clean from freak injuries. And with his build and speed they are usually catching him from behind not squaring him up and delivering shots to him all game.

How did that Jamal Lewis contract work out for us?

Or how about that LT contract San Diego gave him?

Or that huge deal Marshall Faulk got from the Rams?

I could go on...and on...and on.How hard was the hit that took out Jamaal Charles?

[MRLeavey]

How hard was the hit that took out Jamaal Charles?

Or on the flip side, how much of a fluke was it?

Don't get me wrong, I get the hesitancy that goes along with any big deal, and certainly there is some history regarding big contracts for running backs that would make anyone think twice. But a fluke injury happened to Tom Brady. Could have changed/ended his career like the same injury did to Carson Palmer. Does that mean you don't extend Tom Brady?

Provided they avoid those career-altering injuries, young, successful running backs typically experience their decline around 30. Ray will be 25 next year. A five year deal seems like a pretty good investment, especially for a player who is such a big part of our offense. I think the only guy who is responsible for a bigger portion of his team's offense is Maurice Jones-Drew, and he plays on a perennially mediocre team. Ray Rice is a big part of a team that's been on the precipice of a championship since he's been the starter. And he's been doing it in a flawed offensive system. Can you imagine Ray Rice in New England or New Orleans? Woah.

Like I said, I understand the hesitancy given the Shaun Alexanders of the world who basically cashed a massive check and called it a career. But Ray's work ethic, desire to be great, and attention to taking care of his body make me think that he intends on becoming one of the great ones. He's an amazing runner, an amazing receiver, and very sound as a pass protector. And he's a great teammate.

Sure, things happen. But you can't let truly great players get away, and right now Ray looks like the most dangerous skill position player this side of Calvin Johnson. I don't see any chance they let him get away.

[flashjordnk]

Ray Rice is a big part of a team that's been on the precipice of a championship since he's been the starter.

I've got to say, regardless of arguments in this conversation, I'm not sure where I fall...as a fan I say pay the man.

Reading this post, I loved this line!

[Sports Guy]

The NFL has a salary cap...You have a lot of big contracts on the books now and you have Grubbs, Oher and Flacco coming up in the near future...That's not to mention anything else you may do in free agency or anything like that.

If I am the Ravens, no way he is getting that deal this offseason. If he makes it through another season next year unharmed and still producing big time, then you think about it...But right now, unless there is a discount? No way.

[Birds of B'more]

The NFL has a salary cap...You have a lot of big contracts on the books now and you have Grubbs, Oher and Flacco coming up in the near future...That's not to mention anything else you may do in free agency or anything like that.

If I am the Ravens, no way he is getting that deal this offseason. If he makes it through another season next year unharmed and still producing big time, then you think about it...But right now, unless there is a discount? No way.

That makes no sense to me at all. You'll entertain giving him an extension at age 26 after a great season, but not one at age 25 after a great season?

[Sports Guy]

That makes no sense to me at all. You'll entertain giving him an extension at age 26 after a great season, but not one at age 25 after a great season?I personally would NEVER give ANY RB 30M guaranteed.

But I believe you can only use the tag one year now and if that is the case, I am using that tag and then see where things stand.

[Birds of B'more]

I personally would NEVER give ANY RB 30M guaranteed.

But I believe you can only use the tag one year now and if that is the case, I am using that tag and then see where things stand.

What's the franchise number on a RB? With CJ's new contract, it might be pretty high. Remember, they have Grubbs to consider this offseason, and hopefully an extension for Flacco. Carrying a franchise tag on top of that might not work. I agree with your point about the risks of giving RB's a lot of guaranteed money. But I think Ray is one of those guys you have to take the risk on, especially considering how much of the offense he accounts for....and where I disagree with you is that his level of production is not easily replaceable.

[Tony-OH]

Poo pooing that is pretty assinine.

RB is not a tough position to fill.

You really want to give him 30M guaranteed? Really? That's a ton of money to give to a guy who plays a position that has a shelf life of around 3 years or so.

Yes, he could be an exception, I am not doubting that possibility...but that's a hell of a gamble to take.

Umm, I've watched a lot of NFL games thanks to redZone each week and let me tell you, there are not too many Ray Rice's around who can do the things he does. To suggest they grow on trees is really a disserive to Rice. I see no reason with his running style that he won't stay healthy and will be effective for a long time.

I also don't think it;s that big of a gamble. Any signing is a gamble, but Rice has shown he's as durable as any back and his shelf life is already going to be longer than three years. On top of it all, did you read what KVV said about him after yesterday's game? Here it is for those who missed it:

"Every week, it seems, we (both the media and the fans) have a debate over whether or not Cam Cameron gets the ball to Rice enough, whether he favors throwing it over running it too much. And don't think for a second the players don't hear that debate, when they're in their cars listening to the radio, or in the locker room or in meetings, talking amongst themselves. I can promise you, they do the same thing we do. But Rice -- who rushed for just 16 yards in the first half -- stood up at halftime and said something that shows just how much he's evolving into a leader on this team. He said he didn't care what the play call was. All that mattered was getting it right.

"'No matter what the play call is, let's execute [better]," Rice says he told his teammates. "If it's a pass, then let's complete a pass. If it's a 3-yard completion, then let's complete it. If it's a 3-yard run, then let's run for 3 yards.' But we can't play like we're down when we're winning."

Football has always been a fascinating blend of emotion, physical execution and tactics. Rice managed to combine all three in the second half. He gave his speech about just focusing on doing your job and letting the coaches do theirs. He got fired up when one of the Texans players grabbed his face mask, twisted his neck, and wasn't flagged. ("I was hot," Rice said. "I let it go, but I was definitely hot.") And he went to running backs coach Wilbert Montgomery at one point during the third quarter (right after a 5-yard loss) and said the Ravens needed to switch from their outside zone running attack to an inside zone. The Texans linebackers were flowing to the ball too quickly, Rice felt, and they'd be vulnerable to inside traps and backdoor cuts. He and Montgomery went to Cameron, and Cameron trusted their eyes and immediately made the switch. Suddenly, the Ravens run game started clicking, which opened up play-action fakes again. Rice finished with 101 yards, including a 27-yard burst that helped put the game away.

"I would like to thank the coaches for not blinking," Rice said. "Coach Harbaugh said it was nerve, but I'd say it was poise."

Pay the man!

[Tony-OH]

Or on the flip side, how much of a fluke was it?

Don't get me wrong, I get the hesitancy that goes along with any big deal, and certainly there is some history regarding big contracts for running backs that would make anyone think twice. But a fluke injury happened to Tom Brady. Could have changed/ended his career like the same injury did to Carson Palmer. Does that mean you don't extend Tom Brady?

Provided they avoid those career-altering injuries, young, successful running backs typically experience their decline around 30. Ray will be 25 next year. A five year deal seems like a pretty good investment, especially for a player who is such a big part of our offense. I think the only guy who is responsible for a bigger portion of his team's offense is Maurice Jones-Drew, and he plays on a perennially mediocre team. Ray Rice is a big part of a team that's been on the precipice of a championship since he's been the starter. And he's been doing it in a flawed offensive system. Can you imagine Ray Rice in New England or New Orleans? Woah.

Like I said, I understand the hesitancy given the Shaun Alexanders of the world who basically cashed a massive check and called it a career. But Ray's work ethic, desire to be great, and attention to taking care of his body make me think that he intends on becoming one of the great ones. He's an amazing runner, an amazing receiver, and very sound as a pass protector. And he's a great teammate.

Sure, things happen. But you can't let truly great players get away, and right now Ray looks like the most dangerous skill position player this side of Calvin Johnson. I don't see any chance they let him get away.

This is another great point. I honestly think that Ray Rice is the Ray Lewis of running backs when it comes to being a hard worker, great in the lockeroom and great in the community. Rice is just a special player.

[Sports Guy]

Gore, McCoy, Rice, Charles, Forte, Blount, Turner, Jackson, Hillis, Foster and Jones-Drew.

What do all of those backs have in common?

[BaltimoreTerp]

The views in this thread seem to be pushing to the extremes (as they often do), but I think its safe to say that those who are arguing against giving Rice a large extension would do so if the money were right, and those arguing for the extension would not if the money were wrong.

Since I tend to lean toward the cautious side, let me ask this of those who want an extension: what is your limit?

Right now Adrian Peterson is the highest-paid running back (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11254/1173881-66.stm) at seven years, $96 million with $36 million guaranteed. If Rice came to you and said, "I believe I am the best running back in football. I am also almost two years younger than Peterson and in one fewer season have a bit over half of his carries. Give me those years with $40 million guaranteed and break $100 million total," are you willing to do that?

[xKHx]

The views in this thread seem to be pushing to the extremes (as they often do), but I think its safe to say that those who are arguing against giving Rice a large extension would do so if the money were right, and those arguing for the extension would not if the money were wrong.

Since I tend to lean toward the cautious side, let me ask this of those who want an extension: what is your limit?

Right now Adrian Peterson is the highest-paid running back (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11254/1173881-66.stm) at seven years, $96 million with $36 million guaranteed. If Rice came to you and said, "I believe I am the best running back in football. I am also almost two years younger than Peterson and in one fewer season have a bit over half of his carries. Give me those years with $40 million guaranteed and break $100 million total," are you willing to do that?

I'd give him 130 mil contract with 25-30 mill guaranteed just so he could say he was the highest. The Salary cap increases every year guys this is what the players pushed for if this means we have to cut Ricky Williams and go with Allen and a rookie RB so be it.

[The Rick]

I'd give him 130 mil contract with 25-30 mill guaranteed just so he could say he was the highest. The Salary cap increases every year guys this is what the players pushed for if this means we have to cut Ricky Williams and go with Allen and a rookie RB so be it.

RB contracts are all about the guaranteed money. The $25-30 guaranteed wouldn't make him the highest paid RB. Chris Johnson is making more than $30 guaranteed, as is A Pete, as BaltimoreTerp pointed out. So the question is, would you give him $40MM guaranteed if that's what he said it took?

[Birds of B'more]

The views in this thread seem to be pushing to the extremes (as they often do), but I think its safe to say that those who are arguing against giving Rice a large extension would do so if the money were right, and those arguing for the extension would not if the money were wrong.

Since I tend to lean toward the cautious side, let me ask this of those who want an extension: what is your limit?

Right now Adrian Peterson is the highest-paid running back (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11254/1173881-66.stm) at seven years, $96 million with $36 million guaranteed. If Rice came to you and said, "I believe I am the best running back in football. I am also almost two years younger than Peterson and in one fewer season have a bit over half of his carries. Give me those years with $40 million guaranteed and break $100 million total," are you willing to do that?

No. Peterson isn't worth that either. That is elite QB money. It won't take that much money to sign Ray, because I don't imagine any other team would give that to him. Ozzie will sign Ray based on what he means to the team, and if it doesn't happen then that means Ray's demands and his market exceeded that value. I'll be disappointed to see him elsewhere if that happens, but I'll understand.

[xKHx]

Gore, McCoy, Rice, Charles, Forte, Blount, Turner, Jackson, Hillis, Foster and Jones-Drew.

What do all of those backs have in common?

Gore has been hurt, Forte is inconsistent, Blount does not have the resume yet. Charles is gone. Turner is up and down. Jones-Drew is a on par. Jackson always hurt had one good year on par with a Rice year in 2006. Hillis one good year. McCoy so far on par.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I'd give him 130 mil contract with 25-30 mill guaranteed just so he could say he was the highest. The Salary cap increases every year guys this is what the players pushed for if this means we have to cut Ricky Williams and go with Allen and a rookie RB so be it.

He'd make sure your caller ID is set to go straight to voice mail after that :p

He would want the psychological number of getting over $100 million and the physical number of more guaranteed money. Are you willing to give him that guaranteed money? You're talking six million dollars in cap space whether he is on the roster or not, plus his actual yearly salary while he plays.

[TradeAngelos]

The views in this thread seem to be pushing to the extremes (as they often do), but I think its safe to say that those who are arguing against giving Rice a large extension would do so if the money were right, and those arguing for the extension would not if the money were wrong.

Since I tend to lean toward the cautious side, let me ask this of those who want an extension: what is your limit?

Right now Adrian Peterson is the highest-paid running back (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11254/1173881-66.stm) at seven years, $96 million with $36 million guaranteed. If Rice came to you and said, "I believe I am the best running back in football. I am also almost two years younger than Peterson and in one fewer season have a bit over half of his carries. Give me those years with $40 million guaranteed and break $100 million total," are you willing to do that?

On a 5 year deal I would be comfortable with $28-30 guaranteed.

6 years low 30's

7 years maybe around $36 just like Peterson got. (You have to adjust for inflation and the rise of the cap, so it would be slightly less than what AP/CJ got comparatively speaking)

I bet Ray Rice would be happy with any of those scenarios. And he isn't the kind of guy who gives two s%^ what anyone else is making at his position. Also most players laugh at the "hometown discount" but Rice is a guy who I could see giving us a very fair deal and not sticking us for every last cent.

You also have to realize the way NFL deals are structured. For example on that AP deal the final year is probably some crazy salary number like $18 million with very little signing bonus (if any at that point). So in reality it is more like 7 years about $80 million, which is why the only number that matter is the guarantee. Even the 6th year of that deal is probably a huge salary with minimal signing bonus. It is a 7 year deal in name only.

Any which way you look at it Ray is going nowhere. Period.

He will get paid elite market value for the position, as he should.

Edit - Looking at Petersons Contract here is the way it is structured. Very oddly the exact numbers on the last THREE years are not listed on rotoworld. I have probably looked at over a hundred contract info there and have never seen that before. These numbers come from the agents, because they want them out there. It is VERY odd they are keeping that under wraps. Even so we can make an educated guess because they do have the first 4 years numbers listed...

Base salaries/guestimated signing bonus allocation

2011 - 8.25/5.0
2012 - 8.0/6.0
2013 - 11.25/7.0
2014 - 11.75/8.

Now that is only 39.25 million, leaving a whopping 56.75 left for the final 3 years. Holy smokes.

Guessing...

2015 - 16.0/9.75
2016 - 18.0/0
2017 - 22.75/0

Honestly I have never seen that much "back end" money on a 7 year deal. Ever. Not even close. Usually they have that one year at the end which is "funny money" but it looks like AP has at least 2 if not 3 years where they can cut him with hardly any repercussions cap wise at the end of the deal. The devil is in the details with NFL contracts, and most are not what they seem. Players get all their money in the first 3 years of the deal that is what a lot of these contracts are judged by, not the full length.

[bdlj0887]

From what I understand Ray Rice loves the city of Baltimore too, so that's worth noting

[Sports Guy]

From what I understand Ray Rice loves the city of Baltimore too, so that's worth notingBrian Roberts and Mora loved BMore too.

How did that work out for us?

Ray Rice is the man and I would hate to see him go...but 35ish million in guaranteed money for a RB is assinine.

[BaltimoreTerp]

On a 5 year deal I would be comfortable with $28-30 guaranteed.

6 years low 30's

7 years maybe around $36 just like Peterson got. (You have to adjust for inflation and the rise of the cap, so it would be slightly less than what AP/CJ got comparatively speaking)

I bet Ray Rice would be happy with any of those scenarios. And he isn't the kind of guy who gives two s%^ what anyone else is making at his position. Also most players laugh at the "hometown discount" but Rice is a guy who I could see giving us a very fair deal and not sticking us for every last cent.

You also have to realize the way NFL deals are structured. For example on that AP deal the final year is probably some crazy salary number like $18 million with very little signing bonus (if any at that point). So in reality it is more like 7 years about $80 million, which is why the only number that matter is the guarantee. Even the 6th year of that deal is probably a huge salary with minimal signing bonus. It is a 7 year deal in name only.

Any which way you look at it Ray is going nowhere. Period.

He will get paid elite market value for the position, as he should.

Edit - Looking at Petersons Contract here is the way it is structured. Very oddly the exact numbers on the last THREE years are not listed on rotoworld. I have probably looked at over a hundred contract info there and have never seen that before. These numbers come from the agents, because they want them out there. It is VERY odd they are keeping that under wraps. Even so we can make an educated guess because they do have the first 4 years numbers listed...

Base salaries/guestimated signing bonus allocation

2011 - 8.25/5.0
2012 - 8.0/6.0
2013 - 11.25/7.0
2014 - 11.75/8.

Now that is only 39.25 million, leaving a whopping 56.75 left for the final 3 years. Holy smokes.

Guessing...

2015 - 16.0/9.75
2016 - 18.0/0
2017 - 22.75/0

Honestly I have never seen that much "back end" money on a 7 year deal. Ever. Not even close. Usually they have that one year at the end which is "funny money" but it looks like AP has at least 2 if not 3 years where they can cut him with hardly any repercussions cap wise at the end of the deal. The devil is in the details with NFL contracts, and most are not what they seem. Players get all their money in the first 3 years of the deal that is what a lot of these contracts are judged by, not the full length.

First, unless you are a close friend of Ray Rice you are making some wild assumptions based off of the characteristics you are projecting onto his personality. He could easily not care about the "nine-digit" number overall, but want a huge guaranteed payday to set his family up for several generations, and thus be willing to go wherever that money is.

Second, signing bonuses (and some other types included in that umbrella) count against the cap evenly over the full term of the contract. So if you give him, say, $42 million guaranteed in those bonuses over seven years, it counts as at least $6 million every one of those seven years, active or cut.

[BaltimoreTerp]

From what I understand Ray Rice loves the city of Baltimore too, so that's worth noting

I love the city of Baltimore, too. I love my job at the library. But if a library in Philadelphia offered me a better job at a higher salary I'd probably take it. And my roots here go much deeper than Rice's.

[Sports Guy]

Gore has been hurt, Forte is inconsistent, Blount does not have the resume yet. Charles is gone. Turner is up and down. Jones-Drew is a on par. Jackson always hurt had one good year on par with a Rice year in 2006. Hillis one good year. McCoy so far on par.Pretty sure you missed the point.

BTW, Rice wasn't a great RUNNING back last year, if you want to put certain caveats on things.

[The Rick]

Pretty sure you missed the point.

BTW, Rice wasn't a great RUNNING back last year, if you want to put certain caveats on things.

Not only that, but as good as Rice is, he hasn't helped our offense become a juggernaut or anything. We were 13th in '09, 22nd last year, and so far this year we're 19th.

[primetime]

No he's not unless you are taking QBs out of the mix. If you aren't(and QBs are offensive players), there is no argument that says Ray Rice is the best offensive player in the league.

And I agree that it won't get it done.

But its just foolish to give a RB 30M guaranteed.

I don't want to get hung up on semantics....how's this, Ray Rice is one of the best offensive players in the league and arguably the best SKILL player in the league.

If he was a between the tackles, pound it out type of back, I'd be more with you but Rice is so much more than just a running back. I think you're really devaluing what Rice means to this offense.

[TakebackOPACY]

Gore, McCoy, Rice, Charles, Forte, Blount, Turner, Jackson, Hillis, Foster and Jones-Drew.

What do all of those backs have in common?

They've never been in my kitchen. :wedge:

[Sports Guy]

I don't want to get hung up on semantics....how's this, Ray Rice is one of the best offensive players in the league and arguably the best SKILL player in the league.

If he was a between the tackles, pound it out type of back, I'd be more with you but Rice is so much more than just a running back. I think you're really devaluing what Rice means to this offense.Yes he is...He can catch and run...He is dangerous in open space.

Just like Charles, Jackson, MJD, Forte, Gore and McCoy...all of them are duel threat backs and all of them were drafted in the second round or lower.

[The Rick]

Yes he is...He can catch and run...He is dangerous in open space.

Just like Charles, Jackson, MJD, Forte, Gore and McCoy...all of them are duel threat backs and all of them were drafted in the second round or lower.

And just about all of them are featured in offenses in the NFL that aren't elite.

So back to your original point, I'm only spending that type of money on an elite QB who can take our offense to the next level. We're still a mediocre defense even with Rice's greatness. I'm sure I'll get blasted for taking this stance.

[Birds of B'more]

Yes he is...He can catch and run...He is dangerous in open space.

Just like Charles, Jackson, MJD, Forte, Gore and McCoy...all of them are duel threat backs and all of them were drafted in the second round or lower.

Add Ray Rice to that group and you have 7 players, or one for less than 25% of NFL teams. Not as rare as an elite QB, but not the sort of player you can pick up in any draft either.

[Sports Guy]

Add Ray Rice to that group and you have 7 players, or one for less than 25% of NFL teams. Not as rare as an elite QB, but not the sort of player you can pick up in any draft either.No but that is just a quick list of guys NOT drafted in the first round.

You can also have the players like CJ, Peterson, DeAngelo, etc....

My point is that you can get very good play makers out of the RB position almost at will.

Daniel Thomas looks like he will be a good RB. The Browns may go to Montario Hardesty and he has very good upside.

Ben Tate is very good.

BTW, I forgot to put Arian Foster in the post you quoted, so that makes 8(with Rice) out of 32 teams.

Ray Rice is a beast and I am glad we have him...but there is a salary cap in football and the Ravens have a lot of pieces they need to keep and add.

When they drafted Rice, a lot of people questioned whether he could be a big time weapon in this league...The Ravens can draft, we all know that.

[TradeAngelos]

Second, signing bonuses (and some other types included in that umbrella) count against the cap evenly over the full term of the contract. So if you give him, say, $42 million guaranteed in those bonuses over seven years, it counts as at least $6 million every one of those seven years, active or cut.



Absolutely, 100% completely FALSE.

You obviously know nothing about NFL contracts, so just quit talking now before you make yourself look like a bigger fool than you already do for claiming such nonsense. I know you have been told that many times here before but maybe one of these days you will listen.

[Miller192]

Absolutely, 100% completely FALSE.

You obviously know nothing about NFL contracts, so just quit talking now before you make yourself look like a bigger fool than you already do for claiming such nonsense. I know you have been told that many times here before but maybe one of these days you will listen.

Why the harsh response? We understand what he's getting at.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Absolutely, 100% completely FALSE.

You obviously know nothing about NFL contracts, so just quit talking now before you make yourself look like a bigger fool than you already do for claiming such nonsense. I know you have been told that many times here before but maybe one of these days you will listen.

Well, that's how I was under the impression that they worked. If it is wrong, that's fine. And if someone else is willing to explain it better then you just did, I would appreciate it greatly.

[TradeAngelos]

Well, that's how I was under the impression that they worked. If it is wrong, that's fine. And if someone else is willing to explain it better then you just did, I would appreciate it greatly.

Teams can allocate the signing bonus portion any way they want over the life of the contract, but it can't increase more than 30% from one year to the next.

Example: if they put $10 million of it in 2011, in 2012 it can't be more than $13 million. 2013 it couldn't be more than 16.9...and so on.

Most teams will structure contracts like I laid out before, so that near the end of the deal they can cut bait without any real cap implications. It is how you hear "we can cut player X and save _______ against the cap."
If they are in the final year(s) of the deal they almost all the time have paid out the entire signing bonus or have a tiny bit left, so whatever the salary is at that point it comes clean off the books against the cap.

McGahee's deal was a perfect example, it was a "7 year deal" but in reality all the signing bonus money was paid out in 4 years and after that the Ravens just cut him and saved all of the $6 million (or so) in base salary they had for him on their cap for the remaining years. He had no signing bonus allocated so there was no "cap hit".

I hope that clears things up.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Teams can allocate the signing bonus portion any way they want over the life of the contract, but it can't increase more than 30% from one year to the next.

Example: if they put $10 million of it in 2011, in 2012 it can't be more than $13 million. 2013 it couldn't be more than 16.9...and so on.

Most teams will structure contracts like I laid out before, so that near the end of the deal they can cut bait without any real cap implications. It is how you hear "we can cut player X and save _______ against the cap."
If they are in the final year(s) of the deal they almost all the time have paid out the entire signing bonus or have a tiny bit left, so whatever the salary is at that point it comes clean off the books against the cap.

McGahee's deal was a perfect example, it was a "7 year deal" but in reality all the signing bonus money was paid out in 4 years and after that the Ravens just cut him and saved all of the $6 million (or so) in base salary they had for him on their cap for the remaining years. He had no signing bonus allocated so there was no "cap hit".

I hope that clears things up.

That's interesting. I know I have seen it explained elsewhere that the "hit" from guaranteed money is spread over the entire term of the contract.

Thanks.

[The Rick]

Teams can allocate the signing bonus portion any way they want over the life of the contract, but it can't increase more than 30% from one year to the next.

Example: if they put $10 million of it in 2011, in 2012 it can't be more than $13 million. 2013 it couldn't be more than 16.9...and so on.

Most teams will structure contracts like I laid out before, so that near the end of the deal they can cut bait without any real cap implications. It is how you hear "we can cut player X and save _______ against the cap."
If they are in the final year(s) of the deal they almost all the time have paid out the entire signing bonus or have a tiny bit left, so whatever the salary is at that point it comes clean off the books against the cap.

McGahee's deal was a perfect example, it was a "7 year deal" but in reality all the signing bonus money was paid out in 4 years and after that the Ravens just cut him and saved all of the $6 million (or so) in base salary they had for him on their cap for the remaining years. He had no signing bonus allocated so there was no "cap hit".

I hope that clears things up.


That's interesting. I know I have seen it explained elsewhere that the "hit" from guaranteed money is spread over the entire term of the contract.

Thanks.

Yes, I appreciate the detailed explanation. This is something I know I need to learn a lot more about.

So a question for clarity - Had they allocated some of Willis's signing bonus in year 5, that allocated signing bonus $$ would have counted against the cap - while the base salary for this season we would be able to save from the cap? So as an example, say they had $4MM of his signing bonus allocated this year, his base this year was $6MM, so if we cut him, and this was the scenario, we would have only saved net $2MM from the cap?

BTW, is there a COTS type web-site that keeps track of and breaks down salaries (and how they're structured) for NFL teams?

[Miller192]

Teams can allocate the signing bonus portion any way they want over the life of the contract, but it can't increase more than 30% from one year to the next.

Example: if they put $10 million of it in 2011, in 2012 it can't be more than $13 million. 2013 it couldn't be more than 16.9...and so on.

Most teams will structure contracts like I laid out before, so that near the end of the deal they can cut bait without any real cap implications. It is how you hear "we can cut player X and save _______ against the cap."
If they are in the final year(s) of the deal they almost all the time have paid out the entire signing bonus or have a tiny bit left, so whatever the salary is at that point it comes clean off the books against the cap.

McGahee's deal was a perfect example, it was a "7 year deal" but in reality all the signing bonus money was paid out in 4 years and after that the Ravens just cut him and saved all of the $6 million (or so) in base salary they had for him on their cap for the remaining years. He had no signing bonus allocated so there was no "cap hit".

I hope that clears things up.

And this would be incorrect. Signing bonus money is excluded from the 30% rule. One quick example is Terrell Suggs who received 10M in his first year and 23 million in year 2. The signing bonus only applies to player salary for any year in a capped year. For your reference, it's page 107 sec.7 of the new CBA.

Guaranteed money is allocated over the life of the contract. That includes all signing bonus money, roster bonus money and team's options. Again, the 30% rule does not apply here.

There was a 2.5MM cap hit when the team cut McGahee in 2011 and there will be another 3.5MM cap hit in 2012. Despite the salary savings, we still had to account for his prorated guarantees over the seven years.

[Miller192]

Yes, I appreciate the detailed explanation. This is something I know I need to learn a lot more about.

So a question for clarity - Had they allocated some of Willis's signing bonus in year 5, that allocated signing bonus $$ would have counted against the cap - while the base salary for this season we would be able to save from the cap? So as an example, say they had $4MM of his signing bonus allocated this year, his base this year was $6MM, so if we cut him, and this was the scenario, we would have only saved net $2MM from the cap?

BTW, is there a COTS type web-site that keeps track of and breaks down salaries (and how they're structured) for NFL teams?

Let's use round numbers here.

Let's say you are going to agree to a 5 year 20MM dollar deal with the Ravens. As part of that 20MM deal, the Ravens agree to guarantee 10MM of that money. Now, it doesn't matter at all when or how you receive that 10MM. The Ravens can stroke a check for 10MM on day 1 of your contract, on day one of the league year or perhaps in year 3 once you've played out your last contract.....it doesnt matter so forget about it.

So over that 5 years, we are also going to pay you another 10MM in salary. We might structure that as 1MM in year 1, 2MM in year 2, 2MM in year 3, 2MM in year 4 and 3MM in year 5.

To account for your contract for salary cap purposes, we'll first allocate 2MM in each year to account for your 10MM in guaranteed money. We are just spreading it out over the life of the contract so our base salary cap number in each year is 2MM before we get to salary. This is our cap hit in each give year at this point.

In using our salary example above, just add the salary figure from each year to the 2MM in any given year to get that year's cap number. This is the amount that will count against the cap. For example, in year 3 our cap number is 4MM.

At a minimum, the Ravens will have to account for that 10MM in guaranteed money. So let's say the Ravens decide to part ways with you in year 3 at the end of the season. Once that happens, we'll still have to account for the final two years in guaranteed money totaling 4MM.

So we'll have a 4MM dollar cap hit but well save 5MM from our cap because we eliminated your salary in years 4 and 5. Salary is not guaranteed and it's an immediate savings to the cap.

Just to be clear about something, your cap number and cap hit are two different things. Your cap hit is simply the affect of cutting a player and taking the "hit" against the cap like we did in our example of 4MM. Sometimes you'll hear the term "dead money" which is simply the guaranteed amount to be accounted for against the cap. It's often called dead money because you might have already been paid your 10MM.

Cap number is just the salary in any given year plus that year's guaranted amount.

Hope this helps.

[The Rick]

Let's use round numbers here.

Let's say you are going to agree to a 5 year 20MM dollar deal with the Ravens. As part of that 20MM deal, the Ravens agree to guarantee 10MM of that money. Now, it doesn't matter at all when or how you receive that 10MM. The Ravens can stroke a check for 10MM on day 1 of your contract, on day one of the league year or perhaps in year 3 once you've played out your last contract.....it doesnt matter so forget about it.

So over that 5 years, we are also going to pay you another 10MM in salary. We might structure that as 1MM in year 1, 2MM in year 2, 2MM in year 3, 2MM in year 4 and 3MM in year 5.

To account for your contract for salary cap purposes, we'll first allocate 2MM in each year to account for your 10MM in guaranteed money. We are just spreading it out over the life of the contract so our base salary cap number in each year is 2MM before we get to salary. This is our cap hit in each give year at this point.

In using our salary example above, just add the salary figure from each year to the 2MM in any given year to get that year's cap number. This is the amount that will count against the cap. For example, in year 3 our cap number is 4MM.

At a minimum, the Ravens will have to account for that 10MM in guaranteed money. So let's say the Ravens decide to part ways with you in year 3 at the end of the season. Once that happens, we'll still have to account for the final two years in guaranteed money totaling 4MM.

So we'll have a 4MM dollar cap hit but well save 5MM from our cap because we eliminated your salary in years 4 and 5. Salary is not guaranteed and it's an immediate savings to the cap.

Just to be clear about something, your cap number and cap hit are two different things. Your cap hit is simply the affect of cutting a player and taking the "hit" against the cap like we did in our example of 4MM. Sometimes you'll hear the term "dead money" which is simply the guaranteed amount to be accounted for against the cap. It's often called dead money because you might have already been paid your 10MM.

Cap number is just the salary in any given year plus that year's guaranted amount.

Hope this helps.

Yes, this is a great help... thanks so much!

Just a follow up question - In the example above, if we were to part ways in year 3, which would mean a $4MM cap hit, can that hit be $2MM one year, and $2MM the next? Or is all of it in that one season?

Also, is this why you'll see some highly paid, but risky contracts be front loaded with base salary (if their current cap # allows for it), so that 3 or 4 years into a contract they can cut bait without a substantial cap hit?

Thanks again, and please excuse my ignorance. I've got to spread rep around before properly thanking you, just FYI.

[Miller192]

Yes, this is a great help... thanks so much!

Just a follow up question - In the example above, if we were to part ways in year 3, which would mean a $4MM cap hit, can that hit be $2MM one year, and $2MM the next? Or is all of it in that one season?

Also, is this why you'll see some highly paid, but risky contracts be front loaded with base salary (if their current cap # allows for it), so that 3 or 4 years into a contract they can cut bait without a substantial cap hit?

Thanks again, and please excuse my ignorance. I've got to spread rep around before properly thanking you, just FYI.

In reference to your first question, that's where June 1 exemptions kick in. In our example above, the Ravens can cut you after June 1st and take the hit in two years equally. If you are cut before June 1st, then all of the final two years cap hit accelerates and is accounted for in that year.

In reference to your second question, you'll see some contracts that are front loaded while most are going to be back loaded. There are two completely different reasons why a team would do this.

If a team front loads a contract with salary, they are trying to mitigate the risk of an older aging player or perhaps one that might have injury concerns. Packers OL Chad Clifton is a good example here. If they player doesn't perform, they can move on without having any further ramifications down the road. They also can shed that salary immediately or work out an injury settlement if the player is hurt. Again, there's very little in the way of signing bonuses paid on these contracts and its pretty much just salary.

Most teams will back load a contract with salary so that they can rework the deal without affecting the player. You're likely going to see this with Suggs next year. They can guarantee a portion of the salary thus prorating that over the life of the contract. It's a win-win for both player and team because you are guaranteeing the player's salary in case of injury and giving the team the benefit of prorating it among the remaining years of the contract.

[Tony-OH]

I don't want to get hung up on semantics....how's this, Ray Rice is one of the best offensive players in the league and arguably the best SKILL player in the league.

If he was a between the tackles, pound it out type of back, I'd be more with you but Rice is so much more than just a running back. I think you're really devaluing what Rice means to this offense.

I gotta agree and honestly, I'm surprised this is even up for debate. Ray Rice is Marshal Faulk. The man is durable, has an amazing work ethic, great in the locker room, great in the community, can run, receive, and block. I honestly don't know what else you could look for. Pay the man.

[Arthorn]

He's gotta be among the most valuable non-quarterback offensive players in the league.

[The Rick]

He's gotta be among the most valuable non-quarterback offensive players in the league.

How valuable can one be to a consistently mediocre offense?

[Arthorn]

How valuable can one be to a consistently mediocre offense?

It seems that when the offense is on the verge of being poor, they run Rice a few times and get back to mediocre. I always hear talk about the running game opening it up for the passing game, and Ray Rice does exactly that. People fear the Ray Rice run.

[The Rick]

It seems that when the offense is on the verge of being poor, they run Rice a few times and get back to mediocre. I always hear talk about the running game opening it up for the passing game, and Ray Rice does exactly that. People fear the Ray Rice run.

I disagree, they fear the Ray Rice dump off pass. Rice's 4.0 YPC last season ranked 33rd in the NFL. His 4.5 this season is 20th in the NFL. His value is definitely in his receiving game where he can turn a dump off into a big gain. That said, there are plenty of times where Flacco resorts to the dump off when he shouldn't, and that hurts us.

[xKHx]

I disagree, they fear the Ray Rice dump off pass. Rice's 4.0 YPC last season ranked 33rd in the NFL. His 4.5 this season is 20th in the NFL. His value is definitely in his receiving game where he can turn a dump off into a big gain. That said, there are plenty of times where Flacco resorts to the dump off when he shouldn't, and that hurts us.

I am going to disagree here. We have used Rice mainly as a dump off but Rice does not get enough touches a game. When the offense is poor Rice usually get 10 carries and maybe 3-4 targets. If he got the amount of touches he should we blow it up offensively. I can bring in game stats if you would like.

Point being is you are saying rice gets targeted too much, my point is he is not targeted enough. When He gets the right amount of targets and touches we win.

[The Rick]

I am going to disagree here. We have used Rice mainly as a dump off but Rice does not get enough touches a game. When the offense is poor Rice usually get 10 carries and maybe 3-4 targets. If he got the amount of touches he should we blow it up offensively. I can bring in game stats if you would like.

Point being is you are saying rice gets targeted too much, my point is he is not targeted enough. When He gets the right amount of targets and touches we win.

I'm not saying he gets targeted too much, i'm saying that there are definitely times when Flacco fails to make reads, panics, and immediately dumps off to Rice. This isn't always a bad thing, but it definitely has been at times when Flacco has blatantly missed a wide open man.

This is in no way a slight against Ray Rice BTW, he's great, I get that; but I'm not crippling our salary cap for 2-3 or more years when our offense still isn't very good.

[TradeAngelos]

I disagree, they fear the Ray Rice dump off pass. Rice's 4.0 YPC last season ranked 33rd in the NFL. His 4.5 this season is 20th in the NFL. His value is definitely in his receiving game where he can turn a dump off into a big gain. That said, there are plenty of times where Flacco resorts to the dump off when he shouldn't, and that hurts us.

Wrong wrong and more wrong.

Ray Rice averages 4.5 YPC for his CAREER. Why don't you look up the Hall of Fame backs and see where that ranks?

Hint - you are going to be very disappointed to see your cherry picked stats are worthless.

[The Rick]

Wrong wrong and more wrong.

Ray Rice averages 4.5 YPC for his CAREER. Why don't you look up the Hall of Fame backs and see where that ranks?

Hint - you are going to be very disappointed to see your cherry picked stats are worthless.

Wow, learn how to have a CONVERSATION on a message board.

This is a terrible argument anyway. I guess you would say Cal Ripken, because he is a hall of famer, put up HOF type #'s every single season? Rice's YPC the last two seasons have not been near the top tier. That's all I said.

[The Rick]

Absolutely, 100% completely FALSE.

You obviously know nothing about NFL contracts, so just quit talking now before you make yourself look like a bigger fool than you already do for claiming such nonsense. I know you have been told that many times here before but maybe one of these days you will listen.


Why the harsh response? We understand what he's getting at.


Well, that's how I was under the impression that they worked. If it is wrong, that's fine. And if someone else is willing to explain it better then you just did, I would appreciate it greatly.


Teams can allocate the signing bonus portion any way they want over the life of the contract, but it can't increase more than 30% from one year to the next.

Example: if they put $10 million of it in 2011, in 2012 it can't be more than $13 million. 2013 it couldn't be more than 16.9...and so on.

Most teams will structure contracts like I laid out before, so that near the end of the deal they can cut bait without any real cap implications. It is how you hear "we can cut player X and save _______ against the cap."
If they are in the final year(s) of the deal they almost all the time have paid out the entire signing bonus or have a tiny bit left, so whatever the salary is at that point it comes clean off the books against the cap.

McGahee's deal was a perfect example, it was a "7 year deal" but in reality all the signing bonus money was paid out in 4 years and after that the Ravens just cut him and saved all of the $6 million (or so) in base salary they had for him on their cap for the remaining years. He had no signing bonus allocated so there was no "cap hit".

I hope that clears things up.


That's interesting. I know I have seen it explained elsewhere that the "hit" from guaranteed money is spread over the entire term of the contract.

Thanks.


And this would be incorrect. Signing bonus money is excluded from the 30% rule. One quick example is Terrell Suggs who received 10M in his first year and 23 million in year 2. The signing bonus only applies to player salary for any year in a capped year. For your reference, it's page 107 sec.7 of the new CBA.

Guaranteed money is allocated over the life of the contract. That includes all signing bonus money, roster bonus money and team's options. Again, the 30% rule does not apply here.

There was a 2.5MM cap hit when the team cut McGahee in 2011 and there will be another 3.5MM cap hit in 2012. Despite the salary savings, we still had to account for his prorated guarantees over the seven years.


Wrong wrong and more wrong.

Ray Rice averages 4.5 YPC for his CAREER. Why don't you look up the Hall of Fame backs and see where that ranks?

Hint - you are going to be very disappointed to see your cherry picked stats are worthless.

Based on this sequence in this thread today, I'd like to start a petition to trade TradeAngelos. Maybe to Sons of Sam Horn, or back to the Sun boards perhaps. All I'm seeking in return is the freed up bandwidth we'd get by ridding this site of your little mini-rants when you feel someone is wrong, or an idiot, and go on to correct them by being a jerk about it and ironically, being wrong.

[ccbird]

Last years 4.0 wasn't Rice's fault. The run blocking was atrocious. 4.5 ypc is good and while he's listed as 20th so far for this year that also including two QBs and some part time RBs and he's also tied with a few other guys at 4.5 who are listed above him. I think he can definitely maintain his 4.5 for this year and if he does 4.5 will almost assuredly be a top 6 or 7 YPC for backs getting 250+ carries.



BTW....Debating giving Rice a contract and how much is fine but the bottom line is we'll get something done at some point. Like I said earlier, when was the last time a top 5 RB in the prime of his career at 25 hit the FA market. My gut tells me Ray will give us a discount. He's still going to get very good money but I don;t think he has to have CJ or AP type of a deal. Especially, considering he knows he is likely to get tagged this offseason. No player likes getting tagged but I would imagine more so for RBs who need to try to get a signing bonus and up front money whenever they can.

[ccbird]

Just looked up the 2010 numbers. Again, this is assuming Ray can maintain 4.5 which I think he will this year.


4.5 ypc would have been tied for 7th among all RBs getting 200 carries. It would have been tied for 3rd among Rbs getting 250 carries so lets not pretend that a 4.5 ypc isn't a great number for a RB.

[The Rick]

Last years 4.0 wasn't Rice's fault. The run blocking was atrocious. 4.5 ypc is good and while he's listed as 20th so far for this year that also including two QBs and some part time RBs and he's also tied with a few other guys at 4.5 who are listed above him. I think he can definitely maintain his 4.5 for this year and if he does 4.5 will almost assuredly be a top 6 or 7 YPC for backs getting 250+ carries.



BTW....Debating giving Rice a contract and how much is fine but the bottom line is we'll get something done at some point. Like I said earlier, when was the last time a top 5 RB in the prime of his career at 25 hit the FA market. My gut tells me Ray will give us a discount. He's still going to get very good money but I don;t think he has to have CJ or AP type of a deal. Especially, considering he knows he is likely to get tagged this offseason. No player likes getting tagged but I would imagine more so for RBs who need to try to get a signing bonus and up front money whenever they can.

I agree with this.

[TradeAngelos]

Based on this sequence in this thread today, I'd like to start a petition to trade TradeAngelos. Maybe to Sons of Sam Horn, or back to the Sun boards perhaps. All I'm seeking in return is the freed up bandwidth we'd get by ridding this site of your little mini-rants when you feel someone is wrong, or an idiot, and go on to correct them by being a jerk about it and ironically, being wrong.

I said that the signing bonus was not evenly spread out over the life of the deal, and that most of the bonus money was paid out by the last years of the deal enabling the team to cut bait with minimal penalty. That is correct in 99.9% of contracts, even though I mixed up the 30% rule with salary/signing bonus.

Sue me.

Anything to say about Ray Rice's 4.5 YPC average or just going to ignore that?

Have you looked up all the HOF backs and see what their averages look like?

Of course not, you just move on to Flacco and try to do a little more cherry picking of stats that is useless.

[NewMarketSean]

I am Rice's biggest fan and always want to see him in the game, but I think they need to rotate Williams and even Allen in a little more to spell Rice. How many times does Rice bust off a 20+ yard run and they hand him the ball the very next play?

I think they need to protect Rice a little more. And Williams and Allen are suitable back-ups.

[Pedro Cerrano]

I said that the signing bonus was not evenly spread out over the life of the deal, and that most of the bonus money was paid out by the last years of the deal enabling the team to cut bait with minimal penalty. That is correct in 99.9% of contracts, even though I mixed up the 30% rule with salary/signing bonus.

Sue me.

Anything to say about Ray Rice's 4.5 YPC average or just going to ignore that?

Have you looked up all the HOF backs and see what their averages look like?

Of course not, you just move on to Flacco and try to do a little more cherry picking of stats that is useless.

Your tone in this thread is absurd.

[MikeAD]

I am Rice's biggest fan and always want to see him in the game, but I think they need to rotate Williams and even Allen in a little more to spell Rice. How many times does Rice bust off a 20+ yard run and they hand him the ball the very next play?

I think they need to protect Rice a little more. And Williams and Allen are suitable back-ups.

Rice himself is asking for this. He said he'd give up carries if it meant keeping Williams warm. Nothing good about the 2nd RB being cold on the sidelines.

[Sports Guy]

I said that the signing bonus was not evenly spread out over the life of the deal, and that most of the bonus money was paid out by the last years of the deal enabling the team to cut bait with minimal penalty. That is correct in 99.9% of contracts, even though I mixed up the 30% rule with salary/signing bonus.

Sue me.

Anything to say about Ray Rice's 4.5 YPC average or just going to ignore that?

Have you looked up all the HOF backs and see what their averages look like?
Of course not, you just move on to Flacco and try to do a little more cherry picking of stats that is useless.So, are we supposed to look up career stats and compare them to Rice's early, prime years? I mean, don't you think Rice's ypc will go down as he ages and wears down?

[The Rick]

I said that the signing bonus was not evenly spread out over the life of the deal, and that most of the bonus money was paid out by the last years of the deal enabling the team to cut bait with minimal penalty. That is correct in 99.9% of contracts, even though I mixed up the 30% rule with salary/signing bonus.

Sue me.

Anything to say about Ray Rice's 4.5 YPC average or just going to ignore that?

Have you looked up all the HOF backs and see what their averages look like?

Of course not, you just move on to Flacco and try to do a little more cherry picking of stats that is useless.

Nah, I'd rather just trade you.

You're incapable of having a conversation/dialogue. You choose to accuse me of cherry picking stats as a means to converse on the topic at hand, just because you don't agree with me.

I'm a huge Rice and Flacco fan, but don't let facts get in the way of your out of control teenage rampage.

[Miller192]

I said that the signing bonus was not evenly spread out over the life of the deal, and that most of the bonus money was paid out by the last years of the deal enabling the team to cut bait with minimal penalty. That is correct in 99.9% of contracts, even though I mixed up the 30% rule with salary/signing bonus.

Sue me.

Anything to say about Ray Rice's 4.5 YPC average or just going to ignore that?

Have you looked up all the HOF backs and see what their averages look like?

Of course not, you just move on to Flacco and try to do a little more cherry picking of stats that is useless.

Yeah, that's not true either. It doesn't matter when any guaranteed money is paid. It's accounted for in the NFL by spreading it out over the life of the deal despite when they actually pay it.

[Sports Guy]

LeSean McCoy goes for more than 5 ypc...Put him in the HOF right now!!!!

http://www.nfl.com/player/leseanmccoy/79607/careerstats

[Sports Guy]

Yeah, that's not true either. It doesn't matter when any guaranteed money is paid. It's accounted for in the NFL by spreading it out over the life of the deal despite when they actually pay it.LOL...Its like you are the bat and he is the ball...and he is sitting there on a tee.

[primetime]

I don't know that I'd get too hung up on YPC for anything. Of course, as a general rule, you'd like your back to 4.0 YPC or more but that only tells you so much.

Look at how many of our total yards that Rice accounts for. If my math is right, as a team we have a total of 1836 yds from scrimmage this year and Ray Rice has accounted for 700 yds rushing and receiving so far. That puts him at 38% of our total offensive output. Your not going to convince me that "generic RB of your choice" is going to duplicate that kind of output.

In regards to what it may or may not cost to lock Rice up long term, you have to remember that Ray and Ed are going to be coming off the books shortly, which will create some space. Also, there are plenty of ways to be creative under the cap and retain the guys you want to retain.

I could see us giving Rice a 5 yr deal with $20-25 mill guaranteed. If you structure the deal correctly, we could move the larger annual salary where we need to in an effort to make the deal as cap friendly as possible. For a guy with production like Rice, I don't see that type of deal as unreasonable or anyway crippling to our franchise.

Also, when talking about the Ravens FO, I have the utmost confidence the right thing will be done. If Rice wants more money the Ravens deem appropriate, they'll let him walk.

[The Rick]

I don't know that I'd get too hung up on YPC for anything. Of course, as a general rule, you'd like your back to 4.0 YPC or more but that only tells you so much.

Look at how many of our total yards that Rice accounts for. If my math is right, as a team we have a total of 1836 yds from scrimmage this year and Ray Rice has accounted for 700 yds rushing and receiving so far. That puts him at 38% of our total offensive output. Your not going to convince me that "generic RB of your choice" is going to duplicate that kind of output.

In regards to what it may or may not cost to lock Rice up long term, you have to remember that Ray and Ed are going to be coming off the books shortly, which will create some space. Also, there are plenty of ways to be creative under the cap and retain the guys you want to retain.

I could see us giving Rice a 5 yr deal with $20-25 mill guaranteed. If you structure the deal correctly, we could move the larger annual salary where we need to in an effort to make the deal as cap friendly as possible. For a guy with production like Rice, I don't see that type of deal as unreasonable or anyway crippling to our franchise.

Also, when talking about the Ravens FO, I have the utmost confidence the right thing will be done. If Rice wants more money the Ravens deem appropriate, they'll let him walk.

Great post, per the usual primetime!

[xKHx]

What the hell! I argued the hell out of Emmitt Smith not being over rated and guess what stat got thrown in my face over and over YPC. That is the measurement for how good a back is what they said. Where were you guys when I was arguing vs practically everyone haha I could have used some back up in that thread.

[ccbird]

What the hell! I argued the hell out of Emmitt Smith not being over rated and guess what stat got thrown in my face over and over YPC. That is the measurement for how good a back is what they said. Where were you guys when I was arguing vs practically everyone haha I could have used some back up in that thread.

I think everybody or most everybody agreed that Emmit was a great back, a HOF back. Just overrated in the sense that he is not the greatest of all time or even has much of a claim to being the GOAT.

[primetime]

I think everybody or most everybody agreed that Emmit was a great back, a HOF back. Just overrated in the sense that he is not the greatest of all time or even has much of a claim to being the GOAT.

Emmit Smith was the beneficiary of one of the greatest OLines of all time. In the heyday of the 90's Cowboys' dynasty, the holes that were opened for ridiculous. You could've driven an 18 wheeler through them!!

[Tony-OH]

Let's use round numbers here.

Let's say you are going to agree to a 5 year 20MM dollar deal with the Ravens. As part of that 20MM deal, the Ravens agree to guarantee 10MM of that money. Now, it doesn't matter at all when or how you receive that 10MM. The Ravens can stroke a check for 10MM on day 1 of your contract, on day one of the league year or perhaps in year 3 once you've played out your last contract.....it doesnt matter so forget about it.

So over that 5 years, we are also going to pay you another 10MM in salary. We might structure that as 1MM in year 1, 2MM in year 2, 2MM in year 3, 2MM in year 4 and 3MM in year 5.

To account for your contract for salary cap purposes, we'll first allocate 2MM in each year to account for your 10MM in guaranteed money. We are just spreading it out over the life of the contract so our base salary cap number in each year is 2MM before we get to salary. This is our cap hit in each give year at this point.

In using our salary example above, just add the salary figure from each year to the 2MM in any given year to get that year's cap number. This is the amount that will count against the cap. For example, in year 3 our cap number is 4MM.

At a minimum, the Ravens will have to account for that 10MM in guaranteed money. So let's say the Ravens decide to part ways with you in year 3 at the end of the season. Once that happens, we'll still have to account for the final two years in guaranteed money totaling 4MM.

So we'll have a 4MM dollar cap hit but well save 5MM from our cap because we eliminated your salary in years 4 and 5. Salary is not guaranteed and it's an immediate savings to the cap.

Just to be clear about something, your cap number and cap hit are two different things. Your cap hit is simply the affect of cutting a player and taking the "hit" against the cap like we did in our example of 4MM. Sometimes you'll hear the term "dead money" which is simply the guaranteed amount to be accounted for against the cap. It's often called dead money because you might have already been paid your 10MM.

Cap number is just the salary in any given year plus that year's guaranted amount.

Hope this helps.

Great stuff as always, thanks.

[Tony-OH]

Emmit Smith was the beneficiary of one of the greatest OLines of all time. In the heyday of the 90's Cowboys' dynasty, the holes that were opened for ridiculous. You could've driven an 18 wheeler through them!!

At the end of his career, they did! Plus, his beard is weird. ;)

[BaltimoreTerp]

At the end of his career, they did! Plus, his beard is weird. ;)

Ooooooo, it's bad.