Im beginning to get impatient and cranky..

[Roy Firestone]

Unless the Orioles have a surprise for us...it looks like they'll go without a major
upgrade in arms or bats in the offseason...if thats true, Im getting pretty annoyed
with this teams' direction. Maybe they'll surprise me..then I'll recant. But if they
go with these second and third rate pickups...expect another cellar dweller next year
I need to see something bold, exciting, looking to the future.
So far im not impressed.

[EddieMurrayfan]

Expect to stay cranky!

[Slappy]

Yep, time to go buy an Angels or Marlins hat Roy.

[BilboBaggins]

Unless the Orioles have a surprise for us...it looks like they'll go without a major
upgrade in arms or bats in the offseason...if thats true, Im getting pretty annoyed
with this teams' direction. Maybe they'll surprise me..then I'll recant. But if they
go with these second and third rate pickups...expect another cellar dweller next year
I need to see something bold, exciting, looking to the future.
So far im not impressed.

Join the club.

Every year I expect the Orioles to surprise me.

I get disappointed every year.

I need to stop this.

[LookinUp]

Unless the Orioles have a surprise for us...it looks like they'll go without a major
upgrade in arms or bats in the offseason...if thats true, Im getting pretty annoyed
with this teams' direction. Maybe they'll surprise me..then I'll recant. But if they
go with these second and third rate pickups...expect another cellar dweller next year
I need to see something bold, exciting, looking to the future.
So far im not impressed.

Welcome to 2005. Just wait until 2011. Then you'll be really annoyed.

[Shoeless Joe]

If the Orioles were smart, they would pull a Marlins and sign all of the top free agents. Keep them for one or two years and then trade them off for a ton of top level prospects to revamp their farm system.

You use those top tier players to get rid of the multiple losing seasons tag and make the playoffs once or twice.

Weren't the Marlins close to the top of the list with respect to overall farm system talent the year after their big fire sale?

[TonySoprano]

Roy, my advice to you is to start drink heavily.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uepFO4psgKE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[rochester]

Unless the Orioles have a surprise for us...it looks like they'll go without a major
upgrade in arms or bats in the offseason...if thats true, Im getting pretty annoyed
with this teams' direction. Maybe they'll surprise me..then I'll recant. But if they
go with these second and third rate pickups...expect another cellar dweller next year
I need to see something bold, exciting, looking to the future.
So far im not impressed.

100% agree - I didn't even need a huge belly-whacking splash just something that said "we are getting in the game." Instead, it is like Charlie Brown and Lucy all over again.. and my butt hurts from them pulling the ball away before I kick it...

[Moose Milligan]

You're being very Un-Dude, Roy.

[andrewochs615]

Meh I may get season tickets for the Tide, they should be awesome this year.

[jonesing4pie]

Meh I may get season tickets for the Tide, they should be awesome this year.

Dana Eveland is going to be the ace of that staff.

[RavNMadMan]

Roy, my advice to you is to start drink heavily.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uepFO4psgKE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I have tried this before and I was less than successful....maybe I should do it 14 years in a row.

[flashjordnk]

expect another cellar dweller next year

So maybe I'm the only person on here who doesn't really care that we waited a year to do anything major. But did you expect this team plus a few free agents and a traded player to seriously be able to contend with Sox/Yanks/Rays? Let's say we went and got Floyd and Fielder and Quentin. Do you really think we'd sniff the playoffs? What good would another .500 team do for us then?

At worst I guess what I'm really upset with is that we didn't get "worse" this year and add young minor league talent. At best I'm guessing DD will wait and see how the talent of Matusz/Arrieta/Britton/Jones/Wieters improves and if we don't start to see it this season, I bet we blow this whole thing up. But if he goes out and buys high on some guys, gives up contracts or talents, other than placating fans, I really don't see a value in that.

We never had a chance at contention this year IMO. I'm fine with establishing expectations, a player development system, and an international talent system and see what happens. But maybe I'm just numb now.

[jamalshw]

I agree. I feel about as disheartened as I was when we missed out on Vlad in 2004, and this year, we weren't even tied to anything. The fact they were hyping up a trade and it turns out to be Eveland is crazy. That's supposed to be one of your under the radar type moves, your minor moves that gets little attention and a footer alongside a bigger name, but no. That is our big name. That says something.

[Skeletor]

This team went 69-93 last year. That should be unacceptable.

There are a few different ways to get better, but pick one and do it. "Standing pat and hoping the guys just play better" isn't a real option. Still early though. I'll save my more angry rant for March.

[Can_of_corn]

I would rather they make small bad moves like Eveland then mid-sized bad moves like Vlad or Gregg. Also nice to see that they are not ambitious enough to make big bad moves like Zito or Crawford.

[sangar]

I have tried this before and I was less than successful....maybe I should do it 14 years in a row.I drank heavily for about 10 years. Did I quit too soon?

[crowmst3k!]

Like I said, if their initial inaction leads to a Darvish signing, I'll take it all back.

[.500_OR_BETTER]

This team went 69-93 last year. That should be unacceptable.

There are a few different ways to get better, but pick one and do it. "Standing pat and hoping the guys just play better" isn't a real option. Still early though. I'll save my more angry rant for March.

The talent we have on this ball club now is nothing more than a 65-70 win team. Until we start picking up top FA's or trade our high value players nothing will change. Adding one player is not going to improve this team, we need a lot of upgrades and a lot of depth.

If they want to continue to let all the other teams go first and we pick up the scraps at the end expect the same results every year.

[MrOrange82]

I drank heavily for about 10 years. Did I quit too soon?

You know the answer to this question.*















*of course, the answer is that, being an O's fan, you didn't pick up harder drugs quickly enough.

[rochester]

So maybe I'm the only person on here who doesn't really care that we waited a year to do anything major. But did you expect this team plus a few free agents and a traded player to seriously be able to contend with Sox/Yanks/Rays? Let's say we went and got Floyd and Fielder and Quentin. Do you really think we'd sniff the playoffs? What good would another .500 team do for us then?

At worst I guess what I'm really upset with is that we didn't get "worse" this year and add young minor league talent. At best I'm guessing DD will wait and see how the talent of Matusz/Arrieta/Britton/Jones/Wieters improves and if we don't start to see it this season, I bet we blow this whole thing up. But if he goes out and buys high on some guys, gives up contracts or talents, other than placating fans, I really don't see a value in that.

We never had a chance at contention this year IMO. I'm fine with establishing expectations, a player development system, and an international talent system and see what happens. But maybe I'm just numb now.

Please don't take it the wrong way but I am so sick and tired of the "we have to take a step back" crowd... We HAVE been taking steps back... Just once I would like to see just a penlight at the end of the tunnel. Since 2006 I have heard "wait until 2008" "wait until 2010" etc. etc. Even if the Marlins end up hating the week they did all this at least they did something! Plus, even when they did not have a budget they still won - we do nothing....there is no inspiration and it has lasted through several administrations.... there is only one constant in the Warehouse - wonder if DD had a trade worked out that was vetoed?:eektf:

[grimed1]

This team right now is the second or third worst team in baseball. I think they have to do something. You can't go with the same team and hope everything goes right. I think Buck is smarter then that and some moves just did not get made in time for the end of the meetings.

[flashjordnk]

Please don't take it the wrong way but I am so sick and tired of the "we have to take a step back" crowd... We HAVE been taking steps back... Just once I would like to see just a penlight at the end of the tunnel. Since 2006 I have heard "wait until 2008" "wait until 2010" etc. etc. Even if the Marlins end up hating the week they did all this at least they did something! Plus, even when they did not have a budget they still won - we do nothing....there is no inspiration and it has lasted through several administrations.... there is only one constant in the Warehouse - wonder if DD had a trade worked out that was vetoed?:eektf:

I'm not in offended by what you're saying in the least. In fact I do think we should probably add Fielder. I think it's worth it. But I can also not be standing on the ledge and screaming if you don't do anything I'm going to rant!

It's much more like, I get why DD isn't doing anything. If he's trying to bring in a new attitude and thinks there are major improvements on the table for Matusz/Britton/Arrieta in particular frankly that'd be enough to make make happy.

I disagree that this roster as it stands only has enough talent to be a 65 win team. If Matsuz can bounce back, and Britton can vastly improve...and then we make our big splash over the next two years. Then when we add our "Fielder" or "Wilson" or "Pujols" you've got a young Bundy/Schoop/Machado getting a cup of coffee. Then I saw, alright let's do something. But what everyone here seems to be advocating is add MLB ready talent before we know what our Big 3 pitchers really are. What if they don't pan out? For all the tears that were shed over losing Henry/Givens for a backup C. Imagine what we'd get when we suck and we gave up actual prospects for Floyd.

Sorry I'm not crucifying DD because he can't get the White Sox to take Tillman and change for Floyd. But come on, short of gambling away the guys that could improve, trading Guthrie/Jones, this team didn't have a ton of moves to make.

[centralpaosfan]

Obviously there was a reason the "rising star" GM candidates took a look at us and said "thanks but no thanks" and the O's were forced to settle for some guy they dusted off and pulled out of retirement. What up and coming GM would want to be in charge of a franchise where the purse strings are tied so tight you can't possibly open them. By nature, I'm faithful to my favorite teams so I won't be jumping ship. However, it is incredibly frustrating waiting for Angelos to finally leave and let Baltimore be proud of its team once again.

[Frobby]

I'm not the slightest bit impatient or cranky. It is more than two months before Spring Traning begins, still plenty of times for moves to be made. And, I wasn't expecting us to be bidding on the handful of free agents who signed during the meetings.

I am probably almost alone in this, but to me the most important things Duquette will do this winter relate to getting his front office, scouts, and developmental people in place. This team is never going to contend -- never -- until it is producing its own talent at an above average rate. For the last decade, they've been producing at a rate far below average. You simply cannot make up that talent deficit by signing free agents, unless you are one of the wealthiest teams in the sport, and the Orioles simply aren't.

Do I want to see the Orioles make some personnel moves that will improve the club? Sure. But moves like Hoey and Jacobsen for Hardy simply don't come along every day, and for the most part, trading is a zero sum game. I wasn't expecting Duquette to pull off a heist like that. I will be satsfied with some smaller moves that have some upside, so long as I feel that the longer term issues regarding scouting and development are being addressed thoroughly.

[srock]

Eat a Snickers Roy :)!

[NewMarketSean]

The Nationals stadium has Ben's Chili Bowl. Just sayin'.

[mskrulz]

I would rather they make small bad moves like Eveland then mid-sized bad moves like Vlad or Gregg. Also nice to see that they are not ambitious enough to make big bad moves like Zito or Crawford.

That doesn't make any sense. I'd rather shoot for the stars and have a chance getting a great player than consistently go out and get low level performers. BTW Crawford will be good in Boston. Bad year last year but I expect a big time come back this year.

[dan-O]

I'm not the slightest bit impatient or cranky. It is more than two months before Spring Traning begins, still plenty of times for moves to be made. And, I wasn't expecting us to be bidding on the handful of free agents who signed during the meetings.

I am probably almost alone in this, but to me the most important things Duquette will do this winter relate to getting his front office, scouts, and developmental people in place. This team is never going to contend -- never -- until it is producing its own talent at an above average rate. For the last decade, they've been producing at a rate far below average. You simply cannot make up that talent deficit by signing free agents, unless you are one of the wealthiest teams in the sport, and the Orioles simply aren't.

Do I want to see the Orioles make some personnel moves that will improve the club? Sure. But moves like Hoey and Jacobsen for Hardy simply don't come along every day, and for the most part, trading is a zero sum game. I wasn't expecting Duquette to pull off a heist like that. I will be satsfied with some smaller moves that have some upside, so long as I feel that the longer term issues regarding scouting and development are being addressed thoroughly.

Frobby wins the Hangout on a daily basis.

I really just want the O's to get one really good addition to the rotation and I'll be pretty happy. Would still love for Floyd/Quentin to happen.

[Hillsvillehokie]

This organization is such a joke. They shouldn't even be invited to the winter meetings. Year after year spending way too much time on the Hangout just waiting on the big Oriole signing or trade and year after year let down.

[Can_of_corn]

That doesn't make any sense. I'd rather shoot for the stars and have a chance getting a great player than consistently go out and get low level performers. BTW Crawford will be good in Boston. Bad year last year but I expect a big time come back this year.

So you would rather make a bad move that ties up the teams resources for 6+ years?

Atkins was a bad move that only took up a roster spot for a few months and was a small payroll hit for one season. Vlad was a bad move that took up a roster spot for a year and will effect payroll for three years. Zito or Crawford would severely impact the O's ability to add payroll for 6+ years.

[Sports Guy]

I'm not the slightest bit impatient or cranky. It is more than two months before Spring Traning begins, still plenty of times for moves to be made. And, I wasn't expecting us to be bidding on the handful of free agents who signed during the meetings.

I am probably almost alone in this, but to me the most important things Duquette will do this winter relate to getting his front office, scouts, and developmental people in place. This team is never going to contend -- never -- until it is producing its own talent at an above average rate. For the last decade, they've been producing at a rate far below average. You simply cannot make up that talent deficit by signing free agents, unless you are one of the wealthiest teams in the sport, and the Orioles simply aren't.

Do I want to see the Orioles make some personnel moves that will improve the club? Sure. But moves like Hoey and Jacobsen for Hardy simply don't come along every day, and for the most part, trading is a zero sum game. I wasn't expecting Duquette to pull off a heist like that. I will be satsfied with some smaller moves that have some upside, so long as I feel that the longer term issues regarding scouting and development are being addressed thoroughly.

He can do these things and not ignore the immediate good of the franchise. I know many on this site have gotten accustomed to everything being poor and lower their expectations but that doesn't mean its right.

[Brendan25]

I'm just confused of what route we are taking. We trade a couple prospects for average players to make it seem like we are trying to get better with better players, but sign no free agents to improve the team. Are we rebuilding and trading Guthrie and other players, or are we competing and going after top talent?

[Sports Guy]

I'm just confused of what route we are taking. We trade a couple prospects for average players to make it seem like we are trying to get better with better players, but sign no free agents to improve the team. Are we rebuilding and trading Guthrie and other players, or are we competing and going after top talent?

When did a couple equal 4 and when did we actually get average players?

[sbauer]

I'm just confused of what route we are taking. We trade a couple prospects for average players to make it seem like we are trying to get better with better players, but sign no free agents to improve the team. Are we rebuilding and trading Guthrie and other players, or are we competing and going after top talent?

Yeah, that's the question. We've been stuck between both of those plans for so long that I can't remember anything else. At this point I would just rather rebuild the team instead of doing this yearly water treading ritual.

[BirdinBama]

Didn't you hear about the Eveland deal?

[Brendan25]

When did a couple equal 4 and when did we actually get average players?

Eveland and Teagarden are average?

[Sports Guy]

Yeah, that's the question. We've been stuck between both of those plans for so long that I can't remember anything else.

This team just can't figure out that you can be in between those 2 things and have any kind of real success.

[Sports Guy]

Eveland and Teagarden are average?

You called them average...they aren't.

[Brendan25]

You called them average...they aren't.

Okay, below average. A little nitpicking is a little ridiculous but I'm getting used to it with you.

[jonesing4pie]

The Nationals stadium has Ben's Chili Bowl. Just sayin'.

I heard DC is pretty in the springtime...

[flashjordnk]

Yeah, that's the question. We've been stuck between both of those plans for so long that I can't remember anything else. At this point I would just rather rebuild the team instead of doing this yearly water treading ritual.

The off season isn't over. And we can do this during the regular season too. It doesn't seem like good value was there to be had yet. Who are the "other players" you're talking about? We haven't groomed enough of our own talent to even ship off those kind of pieces yet. Is it a fire sale if we sell Guthrie and Jones? Most people won't want Markakis at a point it can give us value. We're not so far away from a team that was 'fire saled' at this point IMO. Our "Fire Sale" guys just sucked. Gregg/Vlad/Lee/etc.

I'm quite far away from being "unhappy". I'm not loving this offseason. But I don't think DD has completely screwed the pooch yet either.

[ScottP]

This organization is such a joke. They shouldn't even be invited to the winter meetings. Year after year spending way too much time on the Hangout just waiting on the big Oriole signing or trade and year after year let down.

I keep tabs on time spent following the O's; maybe I can get a refund when it comes time to meet my maker.

[Brendan25]

The off season isn't over. And we can do this during the regular season too. It doesn't seem like good value was there to be had yet. Who are the "other players" you're talking about? We haven't groomed enough of our own talent to even ship off those kind of pieces yet. Is it a fire sale if we sell Guthrie and Jones? Most people won't want Markakis at a point it can give us value. We're not so far away from a team that was 'fire saled' at this point IMO. Our "Fire Sale" guys just sucked. Gregg/Vlad/Lee/etc.

I'm quite far away from being "unhappy". I'm not loving this offseason. But I don't think DD has completely screwed the pooch yet either.

I agree, I'm just stating that at this time DD is sending a questionable message to fans. He says he wants to win next year. He says he wants to finish over .500. He says we have a core that can win games. Okay. We don't have a team that can finish above .500, so you need to upgrade it. That has not happened yet.

[Camden_yardbird]

Dan? Is that you?

[Sports Guy]

Okay, below average. A little nitpicking is a little ridiculous but I'm getting used to it with you.

LOl...Nitpicking? That's not nitpicking.

Guthrie is an average pitcher. Eveland isn't remotely in his class.

Eveland is essentially a replacement player...That's not average and its not really even below average.

[CA-ORIOLE]

This team went 69-93 last year. That should be unacceptable.

There are a few different ways to get better, but pick one and do it. "Standing pat and hoping the guys just play better" isn't a real option. Still early though. I'll save my more angry rant for March.



I wasn't expecting and big FA signings. If the money saved from signing mediocre FA's is put towards international signings and the draft etc. then I'm fine with this approach. I don't need or want to see anymore DLee, Vladdy, Tejada, Atkins FA signings etc. I assume there will be some more/bigger trade opportunitues out there in the trade market, but that's likley to be after the FA fallout.

[MrOrange82]

I agree, I'm just stating that at this time DD is sending a questionable message to fans. He says he wants to win next year. He says he wants to finish over .500. He says we have a core that can win games. Okay. We don't have a team that can finish above .500, so you need to upgrade it. That has not happened yet.

IMO, that's part of the problem, and it speaks strongly to what was being discussed in re: the Orioles being stuck between plans, unable to execute a coherent philosophy, etc.

This team clearly, painfully, obviously is not good enough to finish above .500 without significant additions. So, you either go that route (i.e., spend big on available FA's, domestic and otherwise), or you dedicate yourself to rebuilding without making what might turn out to be patently false statements about the team's short-term goals.

I'm sick of all this in-betweener BS.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I agree, I'm just stating that at this time DD is sending a questionable message to fans. He says he wants to win next year. He says he wants to finish over .500. He says we have a core that can win games. Okay. We don't have a team that can finish above .500, so you need to upgrade it. That has not happened yet.

I'm sure he'd like to finish above .500 and probably feels it's a message he needs to send to the players and the fans. In reality, it's not something he should be (and likely isn't) working on as a goal.

[Frobby]

He can do these things and not ignore the immediate good of the franchise. I know many on this site have gotten accustomed to everything being poor and lower their expectations but that doesn't mean its right.

Well, your idea of the "immediate good of the franchise" is to trade away two (or maybe three) of the five reliable players we have on this team (Guthrie, Jones, Hardy, Wieters, Markakis) to try to "get more talent." To me, the only way you "get more talent" by trading players of that level is to trade for guys who are highly regarded, but unproven and inexperienced. The Tejada and Bedard trades are examples of this. And in the short run, that means the team gets worse, not better. You just hope that the talent you acquire eventually develops as you expected and then the team will be more talented than it was before.

I am fine with doing that, but I think 75% of the posters on this board are not, and I don't think Angelos chose DD (or Buck) in order to head in that direction. I'm just accepting that as a fact of life.

[MrOrange82]

Well, your idea of the "immediate good of the franchise" is to trade away two (or maybe three) of the five reliable players we have on this team (Guthrie, Jones, Hardy, Wieters, Markakis) to try to "get more talent." To me, the only way you "get more talent" by trading players of that level is to trade for guys who are highly regarded, but unproven and inexperienced. The Tejada and Bedard trades are examples of this. And in the short run, that means the team gets worse, not better. You just hope that the talent you acquire eventually develops as you expected and then the team will be more talented than it was before.

I am fine with doing that, but I think 75% of the posters on this board are not, and I don't think Angelos chose DD (or Buck) in order to head in that direction. I'm just accepting that as a fact of life.

But that means that you have to accept the O's treading water for the foreseeable future, given that PA also, apparently, doesn't want to spend on big money players. So, with a static payroll and an unwillingness to rebuild by trading players at peak- or near-peak value, the Orioles are relegating themselves to either continuing to lose for at least 4 more years (while DD attempts to rebuild solely through the draft and minor international signings), or catching lightning in a bottle with several retreads.

I can understand feeling as though that must be accepted, but I have a hard time actually accepting it.

[rochester]

I'm not in offended by what you're saying in the least. In fact I do think we should probably add Fielder. I think it's worth it. But I can also not be standing on the ledge and screaming if you don't do anything I'm going to rant!

It's much more like, I get why DD isn't doing anything. If he's trying to bring in a new attitude and thinks there are major improvements on the table for Matusz/Britton/Arrieta in particular frankly that'd be enough to make make happy.

I disagree that this roster as it stands only has enough talent to be a 65 win team. If Matsuz can bounce back, and Britton can vastly improve...and then we make our big splash over the next two years. Then when we add our "Fielder" or "Wilson" or "Pujols" you've got a young Bundy/Schoop/Machado getting a cup of coffee. Then I saw, alright let's do something. But what everyone here seems to be advocating is add MLB ready talent before we know what our Big 3 pitchers really are. What if they don't pan out? For all the tears that were shed over losing Henry/Givens for a backup C. Imagine what we'd get when we suck and we gave up actual prospects for Floyd.

Sorry I'm not crucifying DD because he can't get the White Sox to take Tillman and change for Floyd. But come on, short of gambling away the guys that could improve, trading Guthrie/Jones, this team didn't have a ton of moves to make.

Your patience is a virtue... as is thinking before posting... but man, we have been through this over and over again...

[Frobby]

But that means that you have to accept the O's treading water for the foreseeable future, given that PA also, apparently, doesn't want to spend on big money players. So, with a static payroll and an unwillingness to rebuild by trading players at peak- or near-peak value, the Orioles are relegating themselves to either continuing to lose for at least 4 more years (while DD attempts to rebuild solely through the draft and minor international signings), or catching lightning in a bottle with several retreads.

I can understand feeling as though that must be accepted, but I have a hard time actually accepting it.

I have always thought, and still think, that Angelos will spend on big money players when his GM feels that the timing is right and it has a good chance to put the team into contention. Until then, he won't, nor should he, in my opinion.

I am not totally thrilled with the "play it halfway" approach. I'd be shopping Guthrie and Jones if I were Duquette, and maybe shopping Markakis, too. But to repeat what I said in my prior post, it really doesn't matter if they do those things, until our farm system is producing some talent. Realistically, looking at what is on the shelf, nothing is coming until the latter part of 2013 at the earliest. The only way we become more competitive before then is if our young pitchers already here suddenly "get it" and start producing.

[quidam]

Well, your idea of the "immediate good of the franchise" is to trade away two (or maybe three) of the five reliable players we have on this team (Guthrie, Jones, Hardy, Wieters, Markakis) to try to "get more talent." To me, the only way you "get more talent" by trading players of that level is to trade for guys who are highly regarded, but unproven and inexperienced. The Tejada and Bedard trades are examples of this. And in the short run, that means the team gets worse, not better. You just hope that the talent you acquire eventually develops as you expected and then the team will be more talented than it was before.

I am fine with doing that, but I think 75% of the posters on this board are not, and I don't think Angelos chose DD (or Buck) in order to head in that direction. I'm just accepting that as a fact of life.

The problem with this plan for this year is you are 1) trading for guys that DD is not familiar with because he is just back in the game and 2) handing over these new players that are going to change the franchise to a developmental staff that is not completely redone. This is the same developmental staff for the most part who has drafted, signed, and developed 2 All-Stars in the last 10 years.

[Mr Snuffleupagus]

I have always thought, and still think, that Angelos will spend on big money players when his GM feels that the timing is right and it has a good chance to put the team into contention. Until then, he won't, nor should he, in my opinion.

I am not totally thrilled with the "play it halfway" approach. I'd be shopping Guthrie and Jones if I were Duquette, and maybe shopping Markakis, too. But to repeat what I said in my prior post, it really doesn't matter if they do those things, until our farm system is producing some talent. Realistically, looking at what is on the shelf, nothing is coming until the latter part of 2013 at the earliest. The only way we become more competitive before then is if our young pitchers already here suddenly "get it" and start producing.

Isn't that the point? Don't you do those things to increase the number of talented players we have coming through the system that latter part of 2013.

[MrOrange82]

Isn't that the point? Don't you do those things to increase the number of talented players we have coming through the system that latter part of 2013.

Exactly...doing things this way does not put the O's on a timetable to win in 2013 or 2014. It's possible that the piecemeal approach will doom them to losing for the entirety of PA's ownership, however long it lasts.

[Sports Guy]

Well, your idea of the "immediate good of the franchise" is to trade away two (or maybe three) of the five reliable players we have on this team (Guthrie, Jones, Hardy, Wieters, Markakis) to try to "get more talent." To me, the only way you "get more talent" by trading players of that level is to trade for guys who are highly regarded, but unproven and inexperienced. The Tejada and Bedard trades are examples of this. And in the short run, that means the team gets worse, not better. You just hope that the talent you acquire eventually develops as you expected and then the team will be more talented than it was before.

I am fine with doing that, but I think 75% of the posters on this board are not, and I don't think Angelos chose DD (or Buck) in order to head in that direction. I'm just accepting that as a fact of life.

Well they could also go the other way and bring in established talent, ala what Trea wants.

What they are doing is riding the fence...and no one can advocate that as a smart way to do things, whether he is doing what else is needed or not.

[LookinUp]

So, for this offseason, our options are:

1. Make several trades to rebuild the minors, another rebuild. (my preference)
2. Spend...resigning Jones and supplementing this team with other guys.
3. Some combination of #1 and #2.
4. Stay pat.

Due to the embarassing failure that was our GM search, we ended up with a guy who has been away from the game for years. He doesn't have people in place that he trusts. He doesn't know our talent. He doesn't know other team's talent. In short, a strong case can be made that he's unprepared to rebuild this team right now.

With that backdrop, it might be the best plan to sit back and gather information right now. See what other teams think of your guys and their guys. Get to know your scouts. Get to know who they value. Then, we commence the rebuild at the next trading deadline and next offseason. I could see this as a very reasonable plan of attack.

Unfortunately, I think something much more sinister is in play here. I suspect (total speculation) that PA and/or Buck simply won't allow a real rebuild. They won't allow DD to thoroughly explore trades for Markakis, Jones and Hardy. I suspect that players like Reynolds and Guthrie don't have much value so they may not be worth trading. I suspect we're still trying to lure free agents with confederate money that they won't take, and PA won't allow DD to overpay like the Nats did with Werth. In short, the state of our franchise seems to make both #1 and #2 impossible right now.

Maybe that changes next week. Maybe we bid on Darvish and get Fielder. Maybe that changes after another poor April-June, where we're once again looked at as sellers at the deadline. Maybe it doesn't change until next offseason, after earning another top 5 draft pick. Maybe it never changes as long as PA is here. Is that the answer? I hope I'm wrong.

[TonySoprano]

Well they could also go the other way and bring in established talent, ala what Trea wants.

What they are doing is riding the fence...and no one can advocate that as a smart way to do things, whether he is doing what else is needed or not.
Riding the fence can be a good thing, just not in baseball ;)

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4149/5196858911_64d65f5bb1.jpg

[weams]

Yep, time to go buy an Angels or Marlins hat Roy.

Roy will never do that.

[JohnnyK27]

Another awesome winter meeting by an Orioles GM:D

We've added toour stock pile of AAAA players. I cant get excited about either of these moves as the trade was bad considering we gave 2 players up to get a guy that wouldnt be on 1 other staff in our divison. And a rule 5 guy that only makes the team if Roberts cant play or Andino is moved.

I heard a guy say that the Yankees, Red Sox, and Rays didnt do anything either. Problem is they dont need crap filler for their rotation or Infield. Make it 15 and counting ....There no way in hell we finish anywhereclose to .500 and our new GM is peddling the same crap as our old GM. More Bulla Shi Sheeshka from the worst owner in the MLB.

[TonySoprano]

Now I understand why Roy feels the way he does today

Happy Birthday, Roy !

[playbaltimorecom]

We have lost a generation of baseball fans. They show up for opening day to drink, similar to Preakness and never come back. Why? We are a embarrassment; we are the laughing stock of baseball. Angelos is making money and is guaranteed a minimum sale price. He doesn't give two craps about the fans.

Our only hope is Bud Selig moves on and another commissioner does something about him (not AM of course). I doubt that will happen, so enjoy the losing. Nothing will change. It's frustrating because Buck is a heck of a baseball guy, he deserves better.

[weams]

You know the answer to this question.*


*of course, the answer is that, being an O's fan, you didn't pick up harder drugs quickly enough.



You don't know that.

[GoldGlove21]

Another awesome winter meeting by an Orioles GM:D

We've added toour stock pile of AAAA players. I cant get excited about either of these moves as the trade was bad considering we gave 2 players up to get a guy that wouldnt be on 1 other staff in our divison. And a rule 5 guy that only makes the team if Roberts cant play or Andino is moved.

I heard a guy say that the Yankees, Red Sox, and Rays didnt do anything either. Problem is they dont need crap filler for their rotation or Infield. Make it 15 and counting ....There no way in hell we finish anywhereclose to .500 and our new GM is peddling the same crap as our old GM. More Bulla Shi Sheeshka from the worst owner in the MLB.

The Winter Meeting consisted of two teams, the Angels and the Marlins. Between the two clubs they spent $522.5M dollars or so over the next 10-years. Pretty much everyone else was nonexistent. The more I think of those numbers the more my head starts to hurt.

[weams]

Now I understand why Roy feels the way he does today

Happy Birthday, Roy !



Happy Birthday Roy.

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php/116865-Happy-Birthday-Mr-Orange?p=2626248#post2626248

[Roy Firestone]

I'm not the slightest bit impatient or cranky. It is more than two months before Spring Traning begins, still plenty of times for moves to be made. And, I wasn't expecting us to be bidding on the handful of free agents who signed during the meetings.

I am probably almost alone in this, but to me the most important things Duquette will do this winter relate to getting his front office, scouts, and developmental people in place. This team is never going to contend -- never -- until it is producing its own talent at an above average rate. For the last decade, they've been producing at a rate far below average. You simply cannot make up that talent deficit by signing free agents, unless you are one of the wealthiest teams in the sport, and the Orioles simply aren't.

Do I want to see the Orioles make some personnel moves that will improve the club? Sure. But moves like Hoey and Jacobsen for Hardy simply don't come along every day, and for the most part, trading is a zero sum game. I wasn't expecting Duquette to pull off a heist like that. I will be satsfied with some smaller moves that have some upside, so long as I feel that the longer term issues regarding scouting and development are being addressed thoroughly.


I dont agree Frobby. This club has the financial ability to make themselves ALOT better with additions(they are at least as financially solvent as the freaking Marlins) AND they can do all the
organizational and developmental things that they once did about 30 years ago. Why do people think its an "either /or" proposition? The Angels went nuts but at least they went nuts exciting the fan base and improving the club in the short term. Who says the Orioles cant do the same? Why do the Orioles condition its fan base into thinking that EVERY conceivable move that could be made to upgrade
dramatically is a short term move? Im sick to death of this mediocrity(no, mediocrity would be an upgrade). DO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE AND LETS LET IT SHOW ON THE FIELD NOW.

[Roy Firestone]

Roy will never do that.

AND..Im from Miami and I live in Los Angeles..and would NEVER wear either hat. BTW, it is my birthday today..and Im in a Sacramento airport wearing an Orioles winter scarf..I need a life..badly.

[TonySoprano]

AND..Im from Miami and I live in Los Angeles..and would NEVER wear either hat. BTW, it is my birthday today..and Im in a Sacramento airport wearing an Orioles winter scarf..I need a life..badly.I'd say you had a very good one so far...outside of post 1983 Orioles baseball

[rochester]

AND..Im from Miami and I live in Los Angeles..and would NEVER wear either hat. BTW, it is my birthday today..and Im in a Sacramento airport wearing an Orioles winter scarf..I need a life..badly.

Happy Birthday Roy!

[TradeAngelos]

I am probably almost alone in this, but to me the most important things Duquette will do this winter relate to getting his front office, scouts, and developmental people in place.


Yep, you are definitely alone on that one.

Here is an idea - why can't we walk AND chew gum at the same time??? Does it have to be one or the other? Does improving the things you mentioned preclude us from signing pieces along the way?

The answer is NO.


I dont agree Frobby. This club has the financial ability to make themselves ALOT better with additions(they are at least as financially solvent as the freaking Marlins) AND they can do all the
organizational and developmental things that they once did about 30 years ago. Why do people think its an "either /or" proposition? The Angels went nuts but at least they went nuts exciting the fan base and improving the club in the short term. Who says the Orioles cant do the same? Why do the Orioles condition its fan base into thinking that EVERY conceivable move that could be made to upgrade
dramatically is a short term move? Im sick to death of this mediocrity(no, mediocrity would be an upgrade). DO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE AND LETS LET IT SHOW ON THE FIELD NOW.

Roy you just don't get it. (shakes head). All the experts around here will tell you that. Again, you just don't get it.

[Frobby]

AND..Im from Miami and I live in Los Angeles..and would NEVER wear either hat. BTW, it is my birthday today..and Im in a Sacramento airport wearing an Orioles winter scarf..I need a life..badly.

And that is why I will always hear you out, even when I disagree.