Well, Norfolk's pitching should be pretty good this year...

[Frobby]

Seriously, it's looking more and more like several of the O's young starters are going to end up in Norfolk and have to wait their turn to get called back up to the majors.

[Sports Guy]

Which is such a stupid idea given the players they have brought in.

Right now, the rotation should have Britton, Arrieta, Matusz, Chen and Guthrie in it...Guthrie should be traded allowing Wada, Hunter, Eveland, etc...to get the spot.

[Ven6]

Which is such a stupid idea given the players they have brought in.

Right now, the rotation should have Britton, Arrieta, Matusz, Chen and Guthrie in it...Guthrie should be traded allowing Wada, Hunter, Eveland, etc...to get the spot.

I don't get the use of the word 'stupid' as it relates to starting the year with our best rotation in years. And this rotation does include young guns, it has tremendous overall upside, and it has depth in the wings.

[osfan83]

The O's really need 15 legit staters. If the past is any indication, 3 or 4 staters will miss significant time to injuries, meanwhile another 2 or 3 will be awful and lose their spot. That's 6 ot 7 starters that you THINK you have now that will not be available come July/Aug. 15 MLB starters should ensure that we will at least have a MLB quality staff throught the season. Maybe, just Maybe we can move up to #8 or #7 in team pitching this year in the AL...that alone would be hugh for this team.

[jabba72]

I have no doubt all of these starters will get looks this year. Im hoping at least 4 of them prove they belong.

[NewMarketSean]

Which is such a stupid idea given the players they have brought in.

Right now, the rotation should have Britton, Arrieta, Matusz, Chen and Guthrie in it...Guthrie should be traded allowing Wada, Hunter, Eveland, etc...to get the spot.

This is shocking coming from you considering some of the AAAA-level drek we've given starts the past few years in August and September.

I like the depth they've created and I don't think Matusz should be handed a job. We've yet to see how he does in ST...which could be very telling.

[NCRaven]

Which is such a stupid idea given the players they have brought in.

Right now, the rotation should have Britton, Arrieta, Matusz, Chen and Guthrie in it...Guthrie should be traded allowing Wada, Hunter, Eveland, etc...to get the spot.

As is (ie. barring trade) I can see Guthrie, Britton, Chen, Arrieta and Hunter in a five-man rotation. Four of those five pitchers are 26 years-old or younger. Don't see how that can possibly be a "stupid" thing. It means Matusz and Tillman will be the next options at AAA and Patton, Wada, Simon and Bergesen could all be starting options out of the pen, if needed. This staff could have 8 or 9 pitchers capable of starting with the most quality depth between the pen and AAA than we've had in years. It's not only not stupid, it's very good. And, if Matusz shows he's overcome his season long problems from last year, he'll force his way back into the ML rotation. He could push Hunter or Arrieta to the pen and Bergesen out of the picture. This is not a problem.

[Sports Guy]

This is shocking coming from you considering some of the AAAA-level drek we've given starts the past few years in August and September.

I like the depth they've created and I don't think Matusz should be handed a job. We've yet to see how he does in ST...which could be very telling.

What is surprising about it? This has been my consistent position for years.

Guys like Wada and Hunter do very little for the team long term...BMat, et al do, at least potential.

Hunter and Wada can be in the pen..Guys like Eveland can be in AAA.

[mikegallo]

What is surprising about it? This has been my consistent position for years.

Guys like Wada and Hunter do very little for the team long term...BMat, et al do, at least potential.

Hunter and Wada can be in the pen..Guys like Eveland can be in AAA.
I really do understand your reasoning here at all...

I mean we know that the guys with more potential WILL pitch here if they show they can,... so whats wrong with adding depth to the worst and thinnest rotation in the sport the last decade?

[NewMarketSean]

What is surprising about it? This has been my consistent position for years.

Guys like Wada and Hunter do very little for the team long term...BMat, et al do, at least potential.

Hunter and Wada can be in the pen..Guys like Eveland can be in AAA.

I think you're wrong about Hunter. I think every team in the majors could use a strike throwing SP who will get you a ~4.00 ERA.

I think DD has looked at the pitching we have, realized its potential, but also planned for the likelihood that it is going to struggle, disappoint and deal with injuries, just like it has for the past decade.

Can't fault him for that in the least.

[LookinUp]

What is surprising about it? This has been my consistent position for years.

Guys like Wada and Hunter do very little for the team long term...BMat, et al do, at least potential.

Hunter and Wada can be in the pen..Guys like Eveland can be in AAA.

I suspect DD will be focused on building all of these guys back up in hopes that they actually become prepared for the majors. If having guys like Wada and Hunter in the rotation buys us time for guys like Matusz to get back on track, they do help. Having those guys might also make it easier to trade Guthrie. Having those guys might mean we get some nice bullpen pieces for when Britton, Arrieta and Matusz actually do all perform well in the same month. Having those guys might mean we can actually build some value and trade it away.

I can see a lot of scenarios where it makes much better sense to pitch decent - good pitchability - guys rather than throwing broken young men to the wolves. If they're ready, they'll get their spots.

[Slappy]

There is no issue with making those young guys earn their way into the rotation. That's the way it is supposed to be.

Besides, Britton is almost a lock to make the rotation and Arrieta too unless he goes to the 'pen. The only place to argue is Matusz, who was historically terrible last year, and Tillman, who hasn't justified a spot.

[Sports Guy]

I think you're wrong about Hunter. I think every team in the majors could use a strike throwing SP who will get you a ~4.00 ERA.

I think DD has looked at the pitching we have, realized its potential, but also planned for the likelihood that it is going to struggle, disappoint and deal with injuries, just like it has for the past decade.

Can't fault him for that in the least.

I don't think he would be that good.

But at least Hunter is young and could be a long term guy for us...So, I would be ok with him but feel he is better in the pen and doesn't have the upside of our young pitchers.

Its not like we are really high upside talent here. I like Chen and he is in my rotation but the rest of these guys have limited upside. I am glad we have them for depth but I wouldn't use them in the rotation over Arrieta and Matusz unless they look hurt/terrible in ST.

[luismatos4prez]

Matusz needs to prove that he can pitch at Norfolk before he comes back up here. Unless he blows everyone away in ST, it would be a travesty to hand him anything after he didn't touch a baseball for the entire offseason last year and showed up very overweight.

[oriole]

I'd like to see an AAA rotation of...

Matusz
Eveland
Bergesen
Simon
Tillman

and a ML rotation of...

Guthrie
Britton
Chen
Arrieta
Hunter/Wada

Of course, then you juggle this with whoever is pitching best

[luismatos4prez]

As of right now:

Guthrie
Britton
Chen
Arrieta
Wada

should be the rotation.

Hunter, Simon, Bergesen go to pen.
Eveland, Matusz, and Tillman go to Norfolk.

[TheWall]

I definitely want Simon on the MLB roster. He earned a spot in the pen last year.

[NewMarketSean]

I definitely want Simon on the MLB roster. He earned a spot in the pen last year.


I like Simon and was impressed with him at times but I don't think he should be counted on anything other than the last man in the pen.

[waroriole]

I think Guthrie is almost certain to get traded before the deadline, maybe sooner

[andrewochs615]

Isn't Eveland out of options?

[jjb]

Isn't Eveland out of options?

Yes, he is.

[Richmond Bird 9]

So is Brad Bergesen.

[Brendan25]

So is Brad Bergesen.

And DD seemed to like him some Bergy.

[UMDTerrapins]

Can someone clear this up for me?

Matusz currently has 2.026 years of service time. If I'm correct, he is currently on course to be arbitration eligible after this season, and a free agent after 2015. But he has options remaining and is coming off a difficult season. If we start him in Norfolk, could we not affect his service time clock such to defer his arbitration and free agency calendar by a year? After last season's disaster, and with a lot of starter options coming out of spring training, and with his success working with Griffin in the past, I would think it would be pretty easy to justify starting him at Norfolk and assure ourselves of another year of his service.

Am I making any incorrect assumptions?

[GoldGlove21]

Which is such a stupid idea given the players they have brought in.

Right now, the rotation should have Britton, Arrieta, Matusz, Chen and Guthrie in it...Guthrie should be traded allowing Wada, Hunter, Eveland, etc...to get the spot.

Here is the ERA's of the guys you want to have have the spots.

Eveland- 3.03 (29.2 IP)
Guthrie- 4.33 ERA (208 IP)
Britton- 4.61 ERA (154.1 IP)
Hunter- 4.68 ERA (84.2 IP)
Arrieta- 5.05 ERA (119.1 IP)
Matusz- 10.69 ERA (49.2 IP)
Wada and Chen have never pitched in the majors.

Maybe it is just me, but Duquette's comment about first getting 5 starters that combine for 1000 IP is indicitive to what has doomed the Orioles. Either our pitchers have been injured and couldn't go 200 innings or they did not perform well and were demoted. Both of those lead me to believe that he didn't like the idea of just running guys out there because they once were touted prospects. At this point I do not thtink that there should be any locks for the rotation outside of Guthrie who is 1/5'th of the equation.

[GoldGlove21]

Can someone clear this up for me?

Matusz currently has 2.026 years of service time. If I'm correct, he is currently on course to be arbitration eligible after this season, and a free agent after 2015. But he has options remaining and is coming off a difficult season. If we start him in Norfolk, could we not affect his service time clock such to defer his arbitration and free agency calendar by a year? After last season's disaster, and with a lot of starter options coming out of spring training, and with his success working with Griffin in the past, I would think it would be pretty easy to justify starting him at Norfolk and assure ourselves of another year of his service.

Am I making any incorrect assumptions?

Not sure about the service time, but why does Matusz deserve to be given a starting spot because of half a good season? Why not let him earn his way onto the 25-man and if he doesn't that let him gain confidence in AAA? I do not see what the major issue is here.

[GoldGlove21]

Isn't Eveland out of options?

Maybe, but it would be easy to slide him to the pen or trade him out of spring training if there is no place for him.

[GoldGlove21]

And DD seemed to like him some Bergy.

He must have talked to someone who watched the 2009 Bergesen pitch. Bergy should be given an opportunity to earn a spot, but you could lump him in with 75% of the starters on the 40-man.

[DuffMan]

Maybe bringing in all of these new guys will help provide the young guys withe the extra motivation they need. Knowing that if they want to make the OD roster they are going to have to perform and earn a spot and not just expect to be handed a spot. Competition is a good thing.

[GoldGlove21]

I think Guthrie is almost certain to get traded before the deadline, maybe sooner

I am not sure that we have enough pitching to trade Guthrie just yet.

Guthrie
Britton
Chen
Arrieta
Wada

The above looks like an average to below average group, but it looks even worse if Guthrie comes out of the rotation IMO.

Chen
Britton
Arrieta
Wada
Hunter

[GoldGlove21]

I like Simon and was impressed with him at times but I don't think he should be counted on anything other than the last man in the pen.

I agree, but I would rather have him than Gregg (I think). I see Simon as the next to last guy added to the pen and he will have to earn it out of ST. If the Orioles make a play for a closer than I could see the following in terms of personnel in the pen.

Strop
Simon
Wada/Arrieta
Johnson
Gregg
Eveland
Closer

[DrungoHazewood]

Maybe it is just me, but Duquette's comment about first getting 5 starters that combine for 1000 IP...

I've seen this quoted a few times, and it has to be an exaggeration, either that or just a figure of speech. There's essentially zero chance this rotation, or any they could assemble is going to have 1000 IP. The Rangers had a great rotation last year and ended up with 975 IP from their top 5. The Yanks got 902. The Rays have built a magnificent rotation and got 981. Last year the O's got 658 innings from their top 5 starters. I'd be beyond thrilled if they got 850 this year.

[GoldGlove21]

Maybe bringing in all of these new guys will help provide the young guys withe the extra motivation they need. Knowing that if they want to make the OD roster they are going to have to perform and earn a spot and not just expect to be handed a spot. Competition is a good thing.

Exactly, but there was a quote for the GM in Kansas City that said something to the lines of "Pitching prospects attrition rate is something like 1:4" which means that only 1 out of every 4 become viable starters in the league. If other GM's believe the same than there is reason to believe that the Orioles would be lucky if two of Tillman, Arrieta, Matusz, Bergesen and Hunter became viable options. I think Arrieta will stick nicely once he gets moved to the pen. I think Hunter is a #4/#5 starter and has a career. I think Bergesen's health (getting hit by line drives) causes him to bounce around before fading out and Matusz will not do much until he mature's as an individual. Tillman and a guy like Hobgood look like flat out busts to me.

As a side note, in 2009 the following players were picked in the draft right after Hobgood.

6.) Wheeler
7.) Minor
8.) Leake
9.) Turner
10.) Storen
11.) Matzek (Looks like a bust and he was the guy I wanted)
12.) Crow
14.) Purke
15.) White
19.) Miller
43.) Boxberger

Also going in that round following our pick.

13.) Grant Green
16.) Bobby Borchering
25.) Mike Trout
28.) Reymond Fuentes
31.) Brett Jackson
40.) Tyler Skaggs

I think we made a poor choice. :rofl:

[GoldGlove21]

I've seen this quoted a few times, and it has to be an exaggeration, either that or just a figure of speech. There's essentially zero chance this rotation, or any they could assemble is going to have 1000 IP. The Rangers had a great rotation last year and ended up with 975 IP from their top 5. The Yanks got 902. The Rays have built a magnificent rotation and got 981. Last year the O's got 658 innings from their top 5 starters. I'd be beyond thrilled if they got 850 this year.

We got something like 569 from our top pitchers and that was at an ERA of above 4.6. Nobody should be assured a spot outside of Guthrie and that is if he doesn't get traded first IMO.

[Tony-OH]

What is surprising about it? This has been my consistent position for years.

Guys like Wada and Hunter do very little for the team long term...BMat, et al do, at least potential.

Hunter and Wada can be in the pen..Guys like Eveland can be in AAA.

This might very well happen anyways so I don't understand the word stupid being thrown in here. I could see a 2012 rotation that looks like this:

Guthrie
Britton
Chen
Arrieta
Matusz

I could also see Wada or Eveland beating out Matusz if Matusz doesn't pitch well. If Matusz comes to camp and pitches like he's capable of, I don't think the Orioles are going to send him to AAA, but a guy who put up one of the worse major league seasons ever for a starting pitcher who started over ten games should not have an automatic spot in the rotation.

I like Hunter more as a reliever than a starter anyways.

The bullpen could looks this:
Johnson - closer
Strop - Could end up a closer
Gregg
Wada - Could end up a closer
Hunter
O'Day/Bergesen/Berken/Simon
Eveland/Phillips/Rapada/Patton

[Tony-OH]

I've seen this quoted a few times, and it has to be an exaggeration, either that or just a figure of speech. There's essentially zero chance this rotation, or any they could assemble is going to have 1000 IP. The Rangers had a great rotation last year and ended up with 975 IP from their top 5. The Yanks got 902. The Rays have built a magnificent rotation and got 981. Last year the O's got 658 innings from their top 5 starters. I'd be beyond thrilled if they got 850 this year.

I think all it means is that he's wants five starters in the rotation with the potential to throw 200 innings each. Like you said, that's a pretty high number in this day and age but I think it's more of a general concept than a hard number that he expects to happen.

[Frobby]

Can someone clear this up for me?

Matusz currently has 2.026 years of service time. If I'm correct, he is currently on course to be arbitration eligible after this season, and a free agent after 2015. But he has options remaining and is coming off a difficult season. If we start him in Norfolk, could we not affect his service time clock such to defer his arbitration and free agency calendar by a year? After last season's disaster, and with a lot of starter options coming out of spring training, and with his success working with Griffin in the past, I would think it would be pretty easy to justify starting him at Norfolk and assure ourselves of another year of his service.

Am I making any incorrect assumptions?

No, you are 100% correct. When he bombed in his first 1-2 starts back in Baltimore in August, I had questioned whether we should send him back to Norfolk to avoid his reaching 2 years of service time last year. But the O's kept him on the roster, so he is past 2 years now. The O's would have to keep him in the minors until mid-May or so in order to prevent him from reaching 3.00 by the end of this year. I'm not sure I would hold him back if he clearly is one of our best five pitchers coming out of spring training, but if it's a close call, the service time issue comes into play. Of course, if he starts the year in Baltimore and doesn't do well, he can always be sent down later and the same result would be achieved. So to me, really he should just be treated on the merits this spring.

[UMDTerrapins]

No, you are 100% correct. When he bombed in his first 1-2 starts back in Baltimore in August, I had questioned whether we should send him back to Norfolk to avoid his reaching 2 years of service time last year. But the O's kept him on the roster, so he is past 2 years now. The O's would have to keep him in the minors until mid-May or so in order to prevent him from reaching 3.00 by the end of this year. I'm not sure I would hold him back if he clearly is one of our best five pitchers coming out of spring training, but if it's a close call, the service time issue comes into play. Of course, if he starts the year in Baltimore and doesn't do well, he can always be sent down later and the same result would be achieved. So to me, really he should just be treated on the merits this spring.

Thanks Frobby! I think you have the right approach. I wouldn't hold him back either, but if it's a close competition for the 5th spot, this would certainly tip the scales for me.

[markdublya]

A couple more added to the mix!
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/bal-os-sign-ross-wolf-willie-eyre-ryan-edell-to-minor-league-deals-20120110,0,7026664.story

[UMDTerrapins]

A couple more added to the mix!
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/bal-os-sign-ross-wolf-willie-eyre-ryan-edell-to-minor-league-deals-20120110,0,7026664.story

It seems like there's a larger priority being placed on pitchers with good control (Chen, Wada, Hunter, and to a lesser degree Eveland, O'Day and Wolf). Even if it's accidental, it's nice to see. One of the things I loved about Uehara and hate about Gregg.

[NewMarketSean]

The Wolf and the Fox are together at last!

[UMDTerrapins]

The Wolf and the Fox are together at last!

It's a good thing Hunter has no options remaining! :D

[markdublya]

The Wolf and the Fox are together at last!

Jake?? I believe he is a Pirate

[atomic]

There is no issue with making those young guys earn their way into the rotation. That's the way it is supposed to be.

Besides, Britton is almost a lock to make the rotation and Arrieta too unless he goes to the 'pen. The only place to argue is Matusz, who was historically terrible last year, and Tillman, who hasn't justified a spot.

How has Arrieta justified a spot in the rotation? ERA over five last season. Not exactly spectacular in his rookie season. We need to pitch a lot better than that if we want to be a winning team.

[BaltimoreTerp]

How has Arrieta justified a spot in the rotation? ERA over five last season. Not exactly spectacular in his rookie season. We need to pitch a lot better than that if we want to be a winning team.

Because pitchers always pitch at exactly the same level. Especially young pitchers. No room for growth there.

[Bluerocksfan]

From my estimation we got maybe two starters (GUTS and Britton) that undoubtedly should be in the rotation with ML experience. One of them may be traded. Two other canidates hasn't pitched in the bigs. The rest have had mixed success when in the bigs. Am I missing something on why depth is a bad thing especially for this team?

[RZNJ]

I'm not even going to read this thread. EVERY year someone talks about how stacked Norfolk is and every year they stink.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I'm not even going to read this thread. EVERY year someone talks about how stacked Norfolk is and every year they stink.

Really? You sure?

Especially when it comes to pitching?