View Full Version : Davis to be Franchised
backwardsk
02-08-2012, 11:36 AM
No link, but I heard a report that they'll use the franchise tag on puff, puff, give.
JDubs
02-08-2012, 12:15 PM
Issues aside, he is a top-5 TE, IMHO, so the money is right. I think it is actually pretty smart to franchise him rather than extend his contract. This way they can cut him without being hit with salary cap penalties if he screws up again (and incurs a one year suspension).
This year will serve as a sort of probationary period to show us that he is serious about keeping clean. I definitely think that we would have extended him without his issues.
Don Quixote
02-08-2012, 01:44 PM
A bit about that (http://www.csnwashington.com/blog/redskins-talk/post/Report-Redskins-Fred-Davis-to-get-tagged).
Floater
02-08-2012, 02:41 PM
Bye Bye Landry
Sports Guy
02-08-2012, 04:14 PM
Issues aside, he is a top-5 TE, IMHO, so the money is right. I think it is actually pretty smart to franchise him rather than extend his contract. This way they can cut him without being hit with salary cap penalties if he screws up again (and incurs a one year suspension).
This year will serve as a sort of probationary period to show us that he is serious about keeping clean. I definitely think that we would have extended him without his issues.
You think Fred Davis is one of the 5 best TEs in the entire NFL?
Pedro Cerrano
02-08-2012, 04:26 PM
Gronkowski, Gates, Hernandez, Graham, Davis (Vernon), Witten, Finley.
Knock three of them out.
Sports Guy
02-08-2012, 04:48 PM
Gronkowski, Gates, Hernandez, Graham, Davis (Vernon), Witten, Finley.
Knock three of them out.
Not to mention guys like Gonzalez, Gresham, Daniels, Miller, Olsen, etc...
Davis had a nice year and a very good YPC...He is a very good TE but he isn't in the top 5 and probably not in the top 10.
allstar1579
02-08-2012, 07:32 PM
Bye Bye Landry
Don't mind this. He refuses to have surgery even though 3 different people have recommended it and it hasn't healed in 3 seasons now. He's going to be an injury mess the rest of his career.
Moose Milligan
02-08-2012, 08:31 PM
I don't mind Landry going, either...but it's just our luck that he'll be a monster for another team. See: Rogers, Carlos
allstar1579
02-08-2012, 08:50 PM
I don't mind Landry going, either...but it's just our luck that he'll be a monster for another team. See: Rogers, Carlos
Yeah cause he'll go to another team and decide to have the surgery and be a top 5 safety again. I think he might be one of those people that Rogers said wanted to leave the team and will be gone real soon.
Floater
02-08-2012, 09:19 PM
Landry came out and talked about the surgery the Skins wanted him to get. It would have kept him out for a year and a half according to him. I guess he wants to risk it and play this year.
allstar1579
02-09-2012, 12:25 AM
Landry came out and talked about the surgery the Skins wanted him to get. It would have kept him out for a year and a half according to him. I guess he wants to risk it and play this year.
They didn't want him to do anything until this year when he tried it his way and it didn't work and multiple surgeons said he needed surgery. He's a big anti-doctor, homeopathic guy and just doesn't want to go under the knife. He would have been back and healthy before now if he would have done it in the first place. I don't blame him for that though, give him a shot to do it his way first, but after he did his thing from the end of 09 all the way through the beginning of '10 and it wasn't right he should have had surgery by the midpoint then. He could have been back for mid way through this season and be healthy now.
As much potential as he has, I haven't forgotten all the boneheaded penalties for late hits, hits out of bounds, and unsportsmanlike conduct. Now with the more strict rules, I feel like if he played the whole season he would have cost us a TON of penalties.
JDubs
02-09-2012, 12:45 AM
You think Fred Davis is one of the 5 best TEs in the entire NFL?
Gronkowski, Gates, Hernandez, Graham, Davis (Vernon), Witten, Finley.
Knock three of them out.
Not to mention guys like Gonzalez, Gresham, Daniels, Miller, Olsen, etc...
Davis had a nice year and a very good YPC...He is a very good TE but he isn't in the top 5 and probably not in the top 10.
If Pitta is near-elite with Flacco, then yes, Fred Davis is top-5 with Grossman. It's a message board--feel free to disagree. I think Fred Davis is amongst the most talented TEs in the league. AND he's been high most of the time that he's been putting up his results. :)
Sports Guy
02-09-2012, 01:07 AM
If Pitta is near-elite with Flacco, then yes, Fred Davis is top-5 with Grossman. It's a message board--feel free to disagree. I think Fred Davis is amongst the most talented TEs in the league. AND he's been high most of the time that he's been putting up his results. :)
Pitta isn't near elite.
ccbird
02-09-2012, 01:33 AM
Fred Davis is very talented but he isn't even in the discussion as one of the 5 best TEs in the league right now.
Dr. FLK
02-09-2012, 07:53 AM
I think it's a good move with Davis. Even if he's not a top-5 TE, the Skins have the cap room for this move (it won't make him that expensive next year). And, the 1-year deal is good while the Skins determine if Davis can be responsible/mature enough for a long term deal. He's probably not a top-5 TE, but he is very good - and he's be even better if he wasn't the only actual weapon on the field.
Floater
02-09-2012, 11:29 AM
If he would have played 16 games, he'd be around 80 catches and over 1000 yards. If he had a QB to get him the ball in the endzone, he'd clearly be a top 5 TE. I think he is very much in the discussion and is pretty underrated.
allstar1579
02-09-2012, 12:09 PM
If he would have played 16 games, he'd be around 80 catches and over 1000 yards. If he had a QB to get him the ball in the endzone, he'd clearly be a top 5 TE. I think he is very much in the discussion and is pretty underrated.
Other guys have stepped up and passed him, and his shortcomings for not playing 16 games were his OWN stupid fault. Not to mention the risk incurred that he could be suspended for the entire year at any time.
Gates, Graham, Gronkowski, V. Davis, Finley, and Hernandez are all head and shoulders better. Witten, Gresham, Cooley (if healthy), Winslow, Gonzalez, and Pettigrew are all probably in the same range as F. Davis right now. He has a higher ceiling than most of those guys, but he's lowering his ceiling with every boneheaded decision he makes.
Floater
02-09-2012, 12:33 PM
Other guys have stepped up and passed him, and his shortcomings for not playing 16 games were his OWN stupid fault. Not to mention the risk incurred that he could be suspended for the entire year at any time.
Gates, Graham, Gronkowski, V. Davis, Finley, and Hernandez are all head and shoulders better. Witten, Gresham, Cooley (if healthy), Winslow, Gonzalez, and Pettigrew are all probably in the same range as F. Davis right now. He has a higher ceiling than most of those guys, but he's lowering his ceiling with every boneheaded decision he makes.
I like how testing positive for Marijuana will get you 4 games, a year if you keep getting caught, yet a DUI suspension can vary. Most are one or two games at max even though the danger and damage that can be caused is far, far worse than weed. But if you run someone over while under the influence and kill them, then you get suspended for a year.
Anyways, I'm fully aware of all his troubles but I'm strictly talking about on field production, but the off the field stuff does play a role. We also have to take into account the QB throwing these TE's the ball. Look at the ones you listed as head and shoulders above FD. Aside from Davis, who is an absolute monster and might be my favorite TE in the league, they all have franchise/elite QBs. I agree with you most those players are better, but I think he is in the discussion, and it will be clear by the end of the 2012 season if the Skins get a better QB
allstar1579
02-09-2012, 03:39 PM
I like how testing positive for Marijuana will get you 4 games, a year if you keep getting caught, yet a DUI suspension can vary. Most are one or two games at max even though the danger and damage that can be caused is far, far worse than weed. But if you run someone over while under the influence and kill them, then you get suspended for a year.
Anyways, I'm fully aware of all his troubles but I'm strictly talking about on field production, but the off the field stuff does play a role. We also have to take into account the QB throwing these TE's the ball. Look at the ones you listed as head and shoulders above FD. Aside from Davis, who is an absolute monster and might be my favorite TE in the league, they all have franchise/elite QBs. I agree with you most those players are better, but I think he is in the discussion, and it will be clear by the end of the 2012 season if the Skins get a better QB
Depends on the offense too, NE has 2 guys on the list at the same time, that's hard to do. Finley could be better if they threw him the ball more, but they went more WR this season. WAS has a TE focused offense, so he could be really good if he can get his crap together and get a decent QB.
Sports Guy
02-09-2012, 04:03 PM
If he would have played 16 games, he'd be around 80 catches and over 1000 yards. If he had a QB to get him the ball in the endzone, he'd clearly be a top 5 TE. I think he is very much in the discussion and is pretty underrated.
No he wouldn't.
Gronkowski, Gates, Hernandez, Graham, Davis (Vernon), Witten, Finley.
Knock three of them out.
He had a better season than Gates and Finley considering games played.
JDubs
02-09-2012, 05:06 PM
He had a better season than Gates and Finley considering games played.
And frankly, I'm knocking out Henandez too if all other things are equal. In other words, Freddy would have done better than Hernandez if he were dropped into Hernandez's position.
Admittedly, I didn't do an accounting of NFL TEs before stating my, apparently controversial, opinion--mostly because who cares? If it makes those of you who are deeply offended by my opinion happier, then I am comfortable amending it to say, "Davis is close enough to the top-5 TE that it is a good decision." Point is, he is a great weapon, even if his decision making is questionable.
Sports Guy
02-10-2012, 11:29 AM
He had a better season than Gates and Finley considering games played.
Does that mean he is a better player?
flashjordnk
02-10-2012, 12:29 PM
Look not top 5 guys get franchised all the time. Franchising a guy doesn't mean you think he's a top 5 guy. It means for what you're paying him to require him to a one year deal is worth the value.
The Skins need to find out if Davis is going to mature. This is one way of protecting their investment. If he shapes up and has a good year then they can probably sign him to a long term deal at much better terms than being paid as a top 5 TE. If he busts out, they are only on the hook for one year.
He is one of the few playmakers on the Redskins. So if he puts his head on straight he's worth more to them, than say Finely is to Green Bay. It's about value and talent in the system. This says to me though that the Skins are thinking about trading up for RG3 and aren't satisfied with adding Blackmon with their pick.
backwardsk
02-10-2012, 01:03 PM
^^^ I like Blackmon, but I don't think he's really in the plans. I look for them to expand Hankerson and Paul's roles and bring in a FA like Bowe.
I do think this move does signal the end of Landry's tenure as mentioned before.
Does that mean he is a better player?
Hard to say. Gates is great when healthy, but at this point I don't think he should get the benefit of the doubt regarding his health.
I think I am prone to say that if Fred has the better numbers, he's probably the better player (without considering blocking) at this point because those other guys have significantly better QB's and receive less of the defensive attention due to having better receivers around them.
Sports Guy
02-10-2012, 11:57 PM
Hard to say. Gates is great when healthy, but at this point I don't think he should get the benefit of the doubt regarding his health.
I think I am prone to say that if Fred has the better numbers, he's probably the better player (without considering blocking) at this point because those other guys have significantly better QB's and receive less of the defensive attention due to having better receivers around them.
Of course, many of those offenses have much better weapons and spread the ball around everywhere.
BTW, better season doesn't mean better player...not by a long shot.
Of course, many of those offenses have much better weapons and spread the ball around everywhere.
BTW, better season doesn't mean better player...not by a long shot.
If all other things are equal, a TE should do better in the SD or GB offense than the WAS offense imo.
And of course, but what has Finley done to be considered the better player? And as I said about Gates, with his recent injury issues and his age, I can't just rate him as if he's at the level of his prime.
Sports Guy
02-11-2012, 12:39 PM
If all other things are equal, a TE should do better in the SD or GB offense than the WAS offense imo.
And of course, but what has Finley done to be considered the better player? And as I said about Gates, with his recent injury issues and his age, I can't just rate him as if he's at the level of his prime.
Why? The ball is spread around more to the other several talented players on the roster. It may be a better system with a better QB but the ball is spread around more, so it takes away the stats.
And what has Finley done? Well, quite simply he is just the more gifted player and I am pretty sure most evaluators would agree with this.
Davis is good but he is clearly not a top 5 guy...he probably isn't top 10 but he is close.
Why? The ball is spread around more to the other several talented players on the roster. It may be a better system with a better QB but the ball is spread around more, so it takes away the stats.
And what has Finley done? Well, quite simply he is just the more gifted player and I am pretty sure most evaluators would agree with this.
Davis is good but he is clearly not a top 5 guy...he probably isn't top 10 but he is close.
There is a lot less defensive attention on a guy with other good options, the offense gains a lot more passing yards, and the offense scores a lot more passing TD's.
So you haven't answered what Finley's done. He may be more gifted, but he hasn't been a better pass catching TE to this point.
And of course he's a top 10 TE.
One more thing to add: Davis was 3rd among TE's in yards per game despite having Rex Grossman and John Beck as his QB's.
ccbird
02-12-2012, 05:06 PM
One more thing to add: Davis was 3rd among TE's in yards per game despite having Rex Grossman and John Beck as his QB's.
Doesn't necessarily mean anything. SOmetimes inferior Qbs are more reliant on their TEs. For the record, I'll state again that Davis is very talented but you're a homer if you think he's a top 5 TE right now.
JDubs
02-12-2012, 05:41 PM
Doesn't necessarily mean anything. SOmetimes inferior Qbs are more reliant on their TEs. For the record, I'll state again that Davis is very talented but you're a homer if you think he's a top 5 TE right now.
Well, it is the Redskins subforum. ;)
Doesn't necessarily mean anything. SOmetimes inferior Qbs are more reliant on their TEs. For the record, I'll state again that Davis is very talented but you're a homer if you think he's a top 5 TE right now.
It means something. It's not like he just got a lot of check down passes either.
Give him a better QB and his numbers would go up.
I'm not arguing for him being in the top 5, I was simply showing the stats don't make it such a silly belief.
Sports Guy
02-13-2012, 12:05 PM
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/te
They had him 8th this year and way behind the top 5.
Not sure many would have him ahead of Witten either, even if he did end up having a better year.
So, borderline top 10 guy...certainly not top 5.
JDubs
02-13-2012, 12:16 PM
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/te
They had him 8th this year and way behind the top 5.
Not sure many would have him ahead of Witten either, even if he did end up having a better year.
So, borderline top 10 guy...certainly not top 5.
This isn't really a matter of statistics, not that I find your link particularly compelling. There are too many factors that are not accounted for in statistics--many of which have been mentioned above.
This is a matter of opinion. You are in the Redskins section. Your mileage may vary. Your opinion had been noted. Some still disagree. The world continues to spin.
Sports Guy
02-13-2012, 12:21 PM
This isn't really a matter of statistics, not that I find your link particularly compelling. There are too many factors that are not accounted for in statistics--many of which have been mentioned above.
This is a matter of opinion. You are in the Redskins section. Your mileage may vary. Your opinion had been noted. Some still disagree. The world continues to spin.
So, then I can go into the Ravens section and just because I am a fan, I can say that Flacco is better than Brady and that should be a statement that doesn't go challenged by anyone else who isn't a Ravens fan?
flashjordnk
02-13-2012, 12:45 PM
The point of the Franchise isn't to say a guy is top 5. It's to put an appropriate value on a guy on a one year contract.
If the Redskins think Davis can get to top 5 level in one year they are willing to pay the short term investment on protecting their pick. If he gets better, great. Good investment.
If he doesn't mature, if he gets suspended again, if he does something stupid, he's ruined his career because he's on a short term contract and no one will sign him next year.
The move is more about protecting the team and their draft picks for the future, vs. saying Davis is a top 5 guy.
I don't understand why everyone is fussing over him being a top 5 guy. He's not. This is a straight business decision.
Sports Guy
02-13-2012, 01:16 PM
The point of the Franchise isn't to say a guy is top 5. It's to put an appropriate value on a guy on a one year contract.
If the Redskins think Davis can get to top 5 level in one year they are willing to pay the short term investment on protecting their pick. If he gets better, great. Good investment.
If he doesn't mature, if he gets suspended again, if he does something stupid, he's ruined his career because he's on a short term contract and no one will sign him next year.
The move is more about protecting the team and their draft picks for the future, vs. saying Davis is a top 5 guy.
I don't understand why everyone is fussing over him being a top 5 guy. He's not. This is a straight business decision.Umm, do you realize that this conversation has nothing to do with the franchise tag? This is about JDUbs statement where he said he is a top 5 TE.
JDubs
02-13-2012, 02:00 PM
So, then I can go into the Ravens section and just because I am a fan, I can say that Flacco is better than Brady and that should be a statement that doesn't go challenged by anyone else who isn't a Ravens fan?
This is hyperbolic and you know it. If Davis is a "fringe top-10" TE (as you stated, in your opinion), then my statement that Davis is a top-5 TE is not an unreasonable position.
Brady. Flacco. They have to be written like that because they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.
But, yes, if you believe something about Joe Flacco, then of course you can say it in the Ravens section. You can say it here too, but expect a very different response.
You are addressing Redskins fans. Don't be shocked if a Redskins player who you think is a fringe top-10 TE becomes the fringe top-5 here. It's what fans do. And of course you can say your piece. Consider it said, repeatedly. Stop beating a dead horse.
I even went as far as to amend my position a few days ago that Davis may be a fringe top-5 (8th sounds fine) and then I went on to say that it wasn't even about that. It WAS about whether the tagging was wise (I believe it was). That little tiny phrase was parsed from a much larger message and blown up into this threadjack. Who cares if Davis is top-5? He's darned good. I'm happy to be able to root for him and franchising him was a wise move.
Please Baby Ruth, get out of the pool.
EDIT: Geez, I just went back and looked at my post and I even added (IMHO). Opinions are not facts. Everyone is allowed to one and I was (humbly) stating mine.
Sports Guy
02-13-2012, 02:08 PM
This is hyperbolic and you know it. If Davis is a "fringe top-10" TE (as you stated, in your opinion), then my statement that Davis is a top-5 TE is not an unreasonable position.
Brady. Flacco. They have to be written like that because they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.
But, yes, if you believe something about Joe Flacco, then of course you can say it in the Ravens section. You can say it here too, but expect a very different response.
You are addressing Redskins fans. Don't be shocked if a Redskins player who you think is a fringe top-10 TE becomes the fringe top-5 here. It's what fans do.
I even went as far as to amend my position a few days ago that Davis may be a fringe top-5 (8th sounds fine) and then I went on to say that it wasn't even about that. It WAS about whether the tagging was wise (I believe it was). That little tiny phrase was parsed from a much larger message and blown up into this threadjack. Who cares if Davis is top-5? He's darned good. I'm happy to be able to root for him and the franchising was a wise move.
Please Baby Ruth, get out of the pool.
EDIT: Geez, I just went back and looked at my post and I even added (IMHO). Opinions are not facts. Everyone is allowed to one and I was (humbly) stating mine.
No one said you weren't...But everyone else is also allowed to tell you that you are wrong.
OrioleMagic
02-13-2012, 02:16 PM
No one said you weren't...But everyone else is also allowed to tell you that you are wrong.
Just once though please!
JDubs
02-13-2012, 02:17 PM
No one said you weren't...But everyone else is also allowed to tell you that you are wrong.
I never said that they weren't. In fact, a cursory reading of my posts would find that I said the complete opposite. I actually appreciate outside perspectives of other fans. Boorish, repetitive raining on our parade by the fan of another team just for giggles...not so much.
flashjordnk
02-13-2012, 02:38 PM
Issues aside, he is a top-5 TE, IMHO, so the money is right. I think it is actually pretty smart to franchise him rather than extend his contract. This way they can cut him without being hit with salary cap penalties if he screws up again (and incurs a one year suspension).
This year will serve as a sort of probationary period to show us that he is serious about keeping clean. I definitely think that we would have extended him without his issues.
See bolded above.
Umm, do you realize that this conversation has nothing to do with the franchise tag? This is about JDUbs statement where he said he is a top 5 TE.
I think it's shades of both. He was saying he's close enough to top 5 to think that a one year deal is smarter. Why are you so determined to lock JDub into saying he's top 5, when he's even backed the comment, but then furthered the argumentation he makes in his very first post in the thread about...well like I said...read the bolded above.
Sports Guy
02-13-2012, 02:48 PM
See bolded above.
I think it's shades of both. He was saying he's close enough to top 5 to think that a one year deal is smarter. Why are you so determined to lock JDub into saying he's top 5, when he's even backed the comment, but then furthered the argumentation he makes in his very first post in the thread about...well like I said...read the bolded above.
he is a top-5 TE, IMHOThat's more than close enough.
I don't care about the rest of his argument...I was arguing against that one point that he obviously and clearly made.
JDubs
02-13-2012, 03:38 PM
That's more than close enough.
I don't care about the rest of his argument...I was arguing against that one point that he obviously and clearly made.
It wasn't a point. It was a passing opinion that was later modified. You're cherry-picking just for the sake of recreational outrage. You are basically in a boxing ring swinging at shadows. Everyone else is talking about something else. Feel free to join us.
flashjordnk
02-13-2012, 03:45 PM
Issues aside, he is a top-5 TE, IMHO, so the money is right.
I think Fred Davis is amongst the most talented TEs in the league.
Freddy would have done better than Hernandez if he were dropped into Hernandez's position...snip...I am comfortable amending it to say, "Davis is close enough to the top-5 TE that it is a good decision." Point is, he is a great weapon, even if his decision making is questionable.
When you say you don't care about the rest of his argument, how about the parts where he backs down his point, and makes some pretty good arguments?
I agree with JD that if Davis played in some of these other systems he'd be better that what he is. He also makes an attempt to assess talent not raw numbers. And tries to draw a conversation to what would Davis do elsewhere. He then follows up by saying, he's not top 5, but I think he's close. Why are you still trying to prove his point, that he amended already, wrong still?
Here's a question SG...do you think at some point in the right system Davis could be a top 5 tight end? Do you think he has the potential to be top 5 if he gets his head on straight, or that his talent ceiling prevents him from being top 5?
Sports Guy
02-13-2012, 03:48 PM
It wasn't a point. It was a passing opinion that was later modified. You're cherry-picking just for the sake of recreational outrage. You are basically in a boxing ring swinging at shadows. Everyone else is talking about something else. Feel free to join us.
I don't need to go back and change from my original argument because you realized you were wrong.
The discussion grew from that comment...it is what it is.
Sports Guy
02-13-2012, 03:50 PM
When you say you don't care about the rest of his argument, how about the parts where he backs down his point, and makes some pretty good arguments?
I agree with JD that if Davis played in some of these other systems he'd be better that what he is. He also makes an attempt to assess talent not raw numbers. And tries to draw a conversation to what would Davis do elsewhere. He then follows up by saying, he's not top 5, but I think he's close. Why are you still trying to prove his point, that he amended already, wrong still?
Here's a question SG...do you think at some point in the right system Davis could be a top 5 tight end? Do you think he has the potential to be top 5 if he gets his head on straight, or that his talent ceiling prevents him from being top 5?There are more than 5 TEs better than him, no matter what the system is. This has already been discussed in this thread.
flashjordnk
02-13-2012, 04:15 PM
Gronkowski, Gates, Hernandez, Graham, Davis (Vernon), Witten, Finley.
Knock three of them out.
There are more than 5 TEs better than him, no matter what the system is. This has already been discussed in this thread.
Well I'm glad you've decided that an official conclusion is 100% made on this issue.
But in the names above, I'd say a few things.
1. Gates is aging. He's 32 this season. He's been hurt a lot. And in his last 4 seasons he had less yards receiving in 3 of them than Davis did this season playing only 12 games. Less than Gates did in any of those years. In terms of long term value for a franchise, Davis clearly is a better value. (Especially under the tag to mitigate long term salary cap issues).
2. Hernandez. I just don't buy he's better. If Davis/Hernandez were the two TEs in NE, I think Davis would be the feature TE.
3. I think Jermichael Finley is absurdly overrated. He drops about everything you throw at him. Seriously, he is Ed Dickson but in the Packers system. Davis also had more yards than Finley this year in one less game played.
4. Do you need me to also point out Fred Daivs had more yards receiving than Vernon Davis this year? Don't forget...that's right, he also played 4 fewer games than he did.
So let's see...Gates, V. Davis, Finley all had less yards in more games. And arguably with better QBs. Though debatable for Vernon.
I fundamentally disagree with you. His ceiling is clearly top 5 right now in the NFL. But if you extend that area I guess you could talk about...
Not to mention guys like Gonzalez, Gresham, Daniels, Miller, Olsen, etc...
But you'd never franchise Gonzalez. And I might argue Gresham has a higher value. Daniels seemed like he might be close, but then he only has had one season his entire career with more yards than Davis had this year. Miller in 7 seasons has only had one that tops Davis last year. And look that Greg Olsen has never topped more yards than Davis had last year.
Whether he is closer to the top 5 TE's in ceiling value is a lot closer to me than it is to you.
flashjordnk
02-13-2012, 04:23 PM
I was also surprised to see that F. Davis was the 41st overall leader in receiving yards. If someone asked you before reading that if you thought Fred Davis was in the top 50 in the league in receiving yards would you have said yes?
Given only playing 12 games and the ineptitude that was John Beck for a few weeks, I think F. Davis is a bit underrated. That and being a boneheaded idiot. He really doesn't help himself improve his own value much...
Sports Guy
02-13-2012, 05:14 PM
You
Well I'm glad you've decided that an official conclusion is 100% made on this issue.
But in the names above, I'd say a few things.
1. Gates is aging. He's 32 this season. He's been hurt a lot. And in his last 4 seasons he had less yards receiving in 3 of them than Davis did this season playing only 12 games. Less than Gates did in any of those years. In terms of long term value for a franchise, Davis clearly is a better value. (Especially under the tag to mitigate long term salary cap issues).
2. Hernandez. I just don't buy he's better. If Davis/Hernandez were the two TEs in NE, I think Davis would be the feature TE.
3. I think Jermichael Finley is absurdly overrated. He drops about everything you throw at him. Seriously, he is Ed Dickson but in the Packers system. Davis also had more yards than Finley this year in one less game played.
4. Do you need me to also point out Fred Daivs had more yards receiving than Vernon Davis this year? Don't forget...that's right, he also played 4 fewer games than he did.
So let's see...Gates, V. Davis, Finley all had less yards in more games. And arguably with better QBs. Though debatable for Vernon.
I fundamentally disagree with you. His ceiling is clearly top 5 right now in the NFL. But if you extend that area I guess you could talk about...
But you'd never franchise Gonzalez. And I might argue Gresham has a higher value. Daniels seemed like he might be close, but then he only has had one season his entire career with more yards than Davis had this year. Miller in 7 seasons has only had one that tops Davis last year. And look that Greg Olsen has never topped more yards than Davis had last year.
Whether he is closer to the top 5 TE's in ceiling value is a lot closer to me than it is to you.
You may want to look at what FO said...You quote them all the time to suit your arguments...they had him 8th..but pretty far behind 5th and almost 11th.
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/te
They had him 8th this year and way behind the top 5.
Not sure many would have him ahead of Witten either, even if he did end up having a better year.
So, borderline top 10 guy...certainly not top 5.
And I believe he'd be 5th if that was per game.
flashjordnk
02-13-2012, 05:52 PM
You
You may want to look at what FO said...You quote them all the time to suit your arguments...they had him 8th..but pretty far behind 5th and almost 11th.
Fair enough. Though considering the Redskins were 19th overall in DVOA (at -2.1%) it's pretty impressive that within that offensive system Davis was a top 8 guy. And technically top 7 guy if you assess by team.
But they also don't project out for future seasons. I do agree with their stuff. But I think Gates/TG both don't count for this part of this conversation. The question is, is he close enough to top 5 to merit the risk of one year of the Franchise Tag to see if he can put it all together this season. And if he puts it all together for the season and cleans himself up, it's a good risk for the Skins. If he collapses the short term nature also benefits the Skins.
A big part of this conversation in particular is not just was Davis a top 5 guy last year. But can he be a top 5 guy in two years from now. I don't think it's unfair to say in two years Davis doesn't have the ceiling to be top 5.
Sports Guy
02-13-2012, 09:36 PM
Fair enough. Though considering the Redskins were 19th overall in DVOA (at -2.1%) it's pretty impressive that within that offensive system Davis was a top 8 guy. And technically top 7 guy if you assess by team.
But they also don't project out for future seasons. I do agree with their stuff. But I think Gates/TG both don't count for this part of this conversation. The question is, is he close enough to top 5 to merit the risk of one year of the Franchise Tag to see if he can put it all together this season. And if he puts it all together for the season and cleans himself up, it's a good risk for the Skins. If he collapses the short term nature also benefits the Skins.
A big part of this conversation in particular is not just was Davis a top 5 guy last year. But can he be a top 5 guy in two years from now. I don't think it's unfair to say in two years Davis doesn't have the ceiling to be top 5.
And I have never said he couldn't be a top 5 TE in a few years...I think it will be tough as I feel there are just more talented guys out there but it is wrong to say he is a top 5 TE right now...That has been my only point here.
And I have never said he couldn't be a top 5 TE in a few years...I think it will be tough as I feel there are just more talented guys out there but it is wrong to say he is a top 5 TE right now...That has been my only point here.
But it's not wrong to say he's close to top 5, which is what he amended his point to.
Floater
02-13-2012, 10:44 PM
I'll say it again, once he gets a QB that can get him the ball in the endzone, he'll be considered a top 5 TE. He hasn't had that yet. All of the top TE's have at least franchise QB's, save for Vernon but Smith played very well this season.
flashjordnk
02-14-2012, 09:55 AM
And I have never said he couldn't be a top 5 TE in a few years...I think it will be tough as I feel there are just more talented guys out there but it is wrong to say he is a top 5 TE right now...That has been my only point here.
But the thread is about the tag. And I said this in my first post, that your stance is irrelevant to this thread because it's not about is he a top 5 guy now. Even in JD's first post he doesn't mean to say right in this moment he's a top 5 guy. For the potential of his future value, given the TE market and given the value of a short term deal with Davis, he holds top 5 value that merits the Franchise Tag.
Do you think the tag is a good decision?
Sports Guy
02-14-2012, 11:12 AM
But the thread is about the tag. And I said this in my first post, that your stance is irrelevant to this thread because it's not about is he a top 5 guy now. Even in JD's first post he doesn't mean to say right in this moment he's a top 5 guy. For the potential of his future value, given the TE market and given the value of a short term deal with Davis, he holds top 5 value that merits the Franchise Tag.
Do you think the tag is a good decision?
OMG...Shut up about the GD tag. I am not talking about the freakin tag. I am talking about the one statement made. My god, you can't be this dense. How many times do we have to go over this for it to sink into your skull? I don't care what the thread was about..Like most threads on this site, other conversations broke out of it.
I don't care if the tag is a smart or stupid decision...I was having a conversation about him being a top 5 TE.
Do you understand this?
flashjordnk
02-15-2012, 10:32 AM
OMG...Shut up about the GD tag. I am not talking about the freakin tag. I am talking about the one statement made. My god, you can't be this dense. How many times do we have to go over this for it to sink into your skull? I don't care what the thread was about..Like most threads on this site, other conversations broke out of it.
I don't care if the tag is a smart or stupid decision...I was having a conversation about him being a top 5 TE.
Do you understand this?
Sorry I tried to ask you a question to find out what you thought about it to find out your too dumb to actually have any comment on the franchise tag.
I was legitimately curious what you thought about it, and then you reminded how you have to be a douche about anything and everything all the time.
Sports Guy
02-15-2012, 11:31 AM
Sorry I tried to ask you a question to find out what you thought about it to find out your too dumb to actually have any comment on the franchise tag.
I was legitimately curious what you thought about it, and then you reminded how you have to be a douche about anything and everything all the time.
I am just tired of you being a complete and utter moron.
Your capacity to understand what is being said is the lowest I have ever seen on here.
Stop bringing up things that aren't being discussed.(at least by me and you are directing your posts at me)
If you want to ask me a question, that's fine...Doing it in the matter in which you do it makes you look like an idiot and constantly harping on the same thing over and over again, when it is not even anything I am discussing, is annoying as hell.
So yea, I am going to lash out at some point because I can't deal with the stupidity for too long.
To answer you question...I don't know because I don't know what the Skins finances are, what other options they have at franchising players or anything like that. He is a very good TE so if they feel he is important to them and they have the money to use the tag on him and he is their best option to use the tag on, sure, go ahead and do it...but obviously, that's just common sense and goes without saying.
flashjordnk
02-15-2012, 11:46 AM
Thread title, Fred Davis to be Franchised. SG interpretation, opportunity to try and call poster stupid, a SG favorite thing to do, see post above.
Issues aside, he is a top-5 TE, IMHO, so the money is right. I think it is actually pretty smart to franchise him rather than extend his contract. This way they can cut him without being hit with salary cap penalties if he screws up again (and incurs a one year suspension).
This initial quote you responded is about the merits of Davis AND the value of the tag on him in a larger picture...I was just trying to point that out.
Sports Guy
02-15-2012, 11:52 AM
Thread title, Fred Davis to be Franchised. SG interpretation, opportunity to try and call poster stupid, a SG favorite thing to do, see post above.
This initial quote you responded is about the merits of Davis AND the value of the tag on him in a larger picture...I was just trying to point that out.
Who cares about the thread title? Have you ever looked at this site before? Threads get re-routed all the time. I made a comment about one thing and here you come, crying.
I am not calling anyone stupid until you were a little baby towards me.
You are directing a conversation at me that i am not even having and using the context of that conversation, as if it has anything to do with my point..on top of that, you have done it a few different times, ignoring the idea that I have said I am not even discussing that aspect of things.
I was merely discussing whether he is a top 5 TE or not, that's all...and other people joined in that aspect of the conversation as well.
So, you can either follow the conversation or, within the context of what is being said, get the topic back to what you wanted to discuss.
What you did was a combo of both and then kept harping on it(even though it wasn't a point I was even discussing) to the point where you were just being annoying and I got fed up with that. Probably shouldn't have but you just plucked my last nerve, as you do so well.
Using the tag on Davis is a no brain er if you ask me. He was trouble last year you have the one year cap hit and if he works out then he may get a good contract next year and if he screws up you have a decent guy in the draft that you drafted in the 5th round :). I think tiers of players are easier to put players in rather then 1, 2, 3 actual best player. Davis could very easily be a Heap clone or he could be a Winslow. We find out next year.
allstar1579
02-16-2012, 10:42 AM
Using the tag on Davis is a no brain er if you ask me. He was trouble last year you have the one year cap hit and if he works out then he may get a good contract next year and if he screws up you have a decent guy in the draft that you drafted in the 5th round :). I think tiers of players are easier to put players in rather then 1, 2, 3 actual best player. Davis could very easily be a Heap clone or he could be a Winslow. We find out next year.
I don't think he'll ever get a really "good" contract. With that potential full year suspension over his head I imagine he's going to be year to year for a LONG time.
backwardsk
02-16-2012, 12:55 PM
If Davis is "probably not a top 10" guy, how did he stumble into the top 3 in ypg and up at the top of the league in receptions per game for a TE? Those other true top 10 guys must have had disappointing seasons.
For the record, if I had to start a team today to compete over the next few seasons and every player was up for grabs with no contract/pending suspensions, i'd take VDavis, Gronkowski, and Graham well ahead of the fourth guy. But after that, Hernadez, sleepy, Finley, and Pettigrew would be in the running for the 4th and 5th guys.