Redskins strike deal with Rams for No. 2 pick?

[ChaosLex]

The Dolphins had better offer Peyton Manning more money, because their Plan B has now evaporated.

Jay Glazer of FOX Sports reports that the Rams and the Redskins have agreed to terms on a deal that will send the second overall pick in the 2012 draft to Washington. The Redskins undoubtedly will pick quarterback Robert Griffin III. (Or, at the very worst, Andrew Luck.)

Glazer says that the team will swap first-round picks in 2012, with St. Louis taking the No. 6 pick. The Rams also get two future first-round picks and additional selections, one of which is believed to be a second-rounder.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/09/glazer-rams-redskins-strike-deal-for-no-2-pick/

[Floater]

You win

[ChaosLex]

You win

I feel bad.

Mods, could you combine both mine and Floater's (heh heh) threads?

[ChaosLex]

In the deal, the Rams will receive the Redskins first-round in each of the next three years, plus Washington's second-round pick this year in return for the second overall pick that the Redskins now will use on whichever quarterback the Indianapolis Colts do not draft No. 1 overall.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7668243/source-washington-redskins-acquire-no-2-overall-pick-st-louis-rams

Holy crap!

[Floater]

We got him, thats all I care about haha. I've never seen a franchise QB in DC. It'll be a weird feeling if true.

But yeah, that is a lot to give up. I don't wanna see in 10 years, "And at #1 of Sportscenter's Top 10 worst draft deals of all time..."

[Floater]

Didn't someone here insist the Skins were never getting RG3?

[Floater]

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sportsprose/rex_grossman_chicago_leave.jpg

[Sports Guy]

If he ends up an upper echelon QB, this deal is no biggie. If he sucks, it sets them back 5 years.

[J.D.]

Well, congrats Skins fans. Looks like you're getting the franchise quarterback you all have been desperate for, and you resisted the temptation to grab Manning. It was a huge cost, but it's a risk you have to take if you think RG3 is that good (and I think he is).

[Oriology]

Schefter just reported that even though the Redskins just traded for the #2 pick, they will still be pursuing Manning. Seems odd to me.

[Miller192]

Schefter just reported that even though the Redskins just traded for the #2 pick, they will still be pursuing Manning. Seems odd to me.

That makes zero sense. Schefter is taking the bait.

[Wish]

Well, congrats Skins fans. Looks like you're getting the franchise quarterback you all have been desperate for, and you resisted the temptation to grab Manning. It was a huge cost, but it's a risk you have to take if you think RG3 is that good (and I think he is).

The Skins didn't have a shot at Manning, no matter how much money they could possibly throw at him. He wasn't going to play in the same division as his brother and the Skins obviously knew that, so they did this.

[ccbird]

What an insane deal. To move up from 6 to 2 you give up your '13 and '14 first rounders and your '13 second rounder. Who knows, could even be more. Crazy for a guy who is despite the hype is raw. Those '13 and '14 picks could both be Top 10 even if Griffin does end up being good in the long run. That said, thank you for keeping him out of Cleveland.


Also, I said Cleveland always had the upper hand. They could have beat this deal but honestly I don't blame them for not doing it. It's too much. I really thought St Louis would play this down to the last days to draw out the best deal but really it's hard to imagine another team being crazy enough to beat the deal the Skins offer. Take it now before the SKins take it off the table.

[Floater]

What an insane deal. To move up from 6 to 2 you give up your '13 and '14 first rounders and your '13 second rounder. Who knows, could even be more. Crazy for a guy who is despite the hype is raw. Those '13 and '14 picks could both be Top 10 even if Griffin does end up being good in the long run. That said, thank you for keeping him out of Cleveland.


Also, I said Cleveland always had the upper hand. They could have beat this deal but honestly I don't blame them for not doing it. It's too much. I really thought St Louis would play this down to the last days to draw out the best deal but really it's hard to imagine another team being crazy enough to beat the deal the Skins offer. Take it now before the SKins take it off the table.

Well Shefter did say the Browns called in a last ditch effort to try and trade up. Had to be an also crazy offer out of desperation.

[Don Quixote]

The Skins didn't have a shot at Manning, no matter how much money they could possibly throw at him. He wasn't going to play in the same division as his brother and the Skins obviously knew that, so they did this.

The 'Skins have been behind the 8-ball because of that, indeed. Add the bounty situation and the chances basically become zilch, regardless of how bad anyone would want him. There was a Grantland article that I was laughing at because it had the Redskins as the most likely destination for Manning, and it may have been published after the bounty allegations came to light.

As for Griffin, if he is a bust, I will probably abstain from watching NFL games anymore. I've watched enough crap football, thanks. Yes, the deal is INSANE, as well.

[ccbird]

Well Shefter did say the Browns called in a last ditch effort to try and trade up. Had to be an also crazy offer out of desperation.

Yeah, I saw after a read this thread that there are rumors that Cleveland was willing to deal a third 1st rounder and possibly a 2nd rounder themselves. If that is true, I'm not sure why the Rams don't take the Clev deal.

A. You only would move down 2 spots and would absolutely get either Blackmon or Khalil.
B. You get the 21st this year, and IMO there is a better chance that Cleveland's '13 1st rounder is a top 10 pick than Washington's '13 pick. ALso, of course, Clev 2nd rounder would also be 2 spots higher this year.

You basically move down 2 more spots in both the 1st and 2nd rounds and probably end up with a lower '13 draft pick. Plus you pass up on more immediate help at the 21st pick compared to a 1st rounder in '14. The other thing of note is you would have put Griffin in a different conference. Now, if Griffin blows up and is in fact a franchise QB it's a team you'll see more often in the reg season and will be battling with for possible NFC supremacy somewhere in the future. I know I read something last week that said the FO people in St Louis and Washington had a good relationship that could help broker a deal. It seems it may have helped because on paper if Clev was willing to essentially match Washington's offer Stl didn't get the best value.

[square634]

I honestly can't figure out why some Skins fans are happy about this trade. I mean I guess I get it, in that it's nice to dream that RGIII will save everything. But those may very likely be top 10 picks again in the next two years. To me it just seems like another reminder of how similar Snyder and Angelos are... their egos make them think they are smarter than everyone else and don't need to build through the draft.

[cmurter]

After seeing this deal, I'm thinking maybe the Colts should've just kept Peyton and traded the #1 pick for a boatload of picks..

[Catch 8]

At that cost, the Redskins should have received RGI and RGII, as well.

[Dr. FLK]

If he ends up an upper echelon QB, this deal is no biggie. If he sucks, it sets them back 5 years.

Sets us back 5 years? We already suck! It just maintains status quo a little bit longer.:D

I don't mind giving up the picks. They have done a good job acquiring picks, so we can still add talent through the draft. And, the Skins are in good salary cap position, so they can make moves through FA also. It's a lot to give up, but it's a lot more fun than debating Grossman/Beck.

[OrioleMagic]

The ultimate High risk/high reward move. Shanahan's legacy hinges on RGIII's success. The Redskins hinge on RGIII's success.

Unbelievable. I'm curious to see what they do in FA.

Also, they are going to publicly stay in the hunt for Peyton to drive his price up and further handicap whoever gets him financially, IMHO.

I just pray this works out. If it does, we will have made a bold move. If it doesn't we will have made the ultimate stupid move.

[backwardsk]

That O-line is going to be nasty with Khalil and Williams at tackle. :)

[waroriole]

Wow, what an incredibly stupid move by the Redskins.

[hallmt18]

Definitely a steep price, but I think it's worth the risk on this one. Part of the reason I feel okay with this is that the Skins have been getting better in the later rounds of the draft. Hopefully they continue to draft well. This could absolutely come back to haunt them, but it's a risk worth taking.

[McLovin]

If he ends up an upper echelon QB, this deal is no biggie. If he sucks, it sets them back 5 years.
I think it sets them back 5 years either way. If you can't draft well, you can't win. And if you can't, um, draft, you can't draft well. The Skins don't ever seem to get this simple point...

[LookinUp]

I think it sets them back 5 years either way. If you can't draft well, you can't win. And if you can't, um, draft, you can't draft well. The Skins don't ever seem to get this simple point...

Skins still have 6 or 7 picks this year and 6 each of the next two years. Plus huge cap room.

[Floater]

I think it sets them back 5 years either way. If you can't draft well, you can't win. And if you can't, um, draft, you can't draft well. The Skins don't ever seem to get this simple point...

This works for the Vinny Cerrato years, not the Bruce Allen years. He has draft pretty well so far. But if people think the Skins way of building will never ever change and they will continue to draft and sign over priced FA's like Vinny did and not realize things have changed a bit, then yeah, they are idiots!

[backwardsk]

Skins still have 6 or 7 picks this year and 6 each of the next two years. Plus huge cap room.

They have seven this year and seven next year.

Over the past 5 years, they have had 8 1st or 2nd round picks. Only 2 played more than 12 games, one was on IR, one is out of the league, and one got cut and caught 3 passes this year.

Big gamble, but they have significant cap room.

[Floater]

They have seven this year and seven next year.

Over the past 5 years, they have had 8 1st or 2nd round picks. Only 2 played more than 12 games, one was on IR, one is out of the league, and one got cut and caught 3 passes this year.

Big gamble, but they have significant cap room.

It is really a great year to have a significant amount of cap room because of the depth and talent in this year's FA class. It is really fortunate timing this year.

[backwardsk]

It is really a great year to have a significant amount of cap room because of the depth and talent in this year's FA class. It is really fortunate timing this year.

I think they need to go hard after Carr from Kansas City. I've read where they are looking at a safety from Jacksonville, I think his name is Lowrey. They did a good job at getting off the radar FAs last season like Bowen and Cofield.

[Sports Guy]

I think it sets them back 5 years either way. If you can't draft well, you can't win. And if you can't, um, draft, you can't draft well. The Skins don't ever seem to get this simple point...

Franchise/elite QBs cure a lot of those issues.

If he is going to be that good, then this is a great deal for DC.

[olehippi]

I’m wondering if Stanford's supposedly NFL-ready quarterback, Andrew Luck is all that sure a bet to the number one pick in April's NFL draft? Anyone think there’s any chance that the Colts might rethink their situation and go after Baylor’s multi-talented Heisman trophy QB, Robert Griffin III?

Either way, I think there’s a good chance the Redskins can come out a winner if the Griffin/Luck is as good as expected. But wow!….the Redskins sure gave up a boatload to take that chance.

[Sports Guy]

I’m wondering if Stanford's supposedly NFL-ready quarterback, Andrew Luck is all that sure a bet to the number one pick in April's NFL draft? Anyone think there’s any chance that the Colts might rethink their situation and go after Baylor’s multi-talented Heisman trophy QB, Robert Griffin III?
Either way, I think there’s a good chance the Redskins can come out a winner if the Griffin/Luck is as good as expected. But wow!….the Redskins sure gave up a boatload to take that chance.

Zero chance.

[Moose Milligan]

Finally. Thank goodness.

[backwardsk]

This, of course, is a great deal for StL. But why not wait until draft day? If Manning goes to Denver and Flynn signs with Seattle, you could get Miami and Cleveland desperate enough to outbid Washington.

[Floater]

Also, this is the first year of the new rookie pay scale. That could have played a role as to why it costs more to trade up for RG3, he isn't going to cost as much in terms of salary as previous years.

[fansince71]

Zero chance.

I wouldn't say zero, Colts could still surprise everybody and go the other way.
Either way Skins get their QB of the future.

[fansince71]

Also, this is the first year of the new rookie pay scale. That could have played a role as to why it costs more to trade up for RG3, he isn't going to cost as much in terms of salary as previous years.

IIRC last year was the first year when Cam got considerably less than Bradford in guaranteed $.

[Floater]

IIRC last year was the first year when Cam got considerably less than Bradford in guaranteed $.

Actually, that sounds about right, good call.

[Moose Milligan]

BTW, the right way to look at this trade is that we gave up two first rounders and a 2nd rounder. We still have a first rounder this year (obviously).

I do remember reading somewhere that a study showed that the most bang for a teams buck really comes from draft picks made in the 2nd round. Assuming that RG3 is the real deal, I'm happy with this trade. I don't feel like we gave up a ton and barring more trades, we still have a lot of draft picks this year and next.

[Moose Milligan]

The Redskins acted swiftly, but did they act wisely? Doubters will say they made an irresponsible move that mortgaged their future, following their recent history of mishandling the draft.

Read more: http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2012-03-10/robert-griffin-iii-rg3-washington-redskins-trade-st-louis-rams-2012-nfl-draft-pi#ixzz1ok6BPRus

Things like this really irk me. Last years draft provided us a LOT. If we have another draft like that this year, we'll be in great shape. A lot of guys we drafted last year made positive contributions or were really starting to catch on before season ending injuries:

1st: Ryan Kerrigan - Stud. Arguably already better than Orakpo. Made several big plays.

2nd: Jarvis Jenkins - Torn ACL suffered in camp kept him out all year. By all accounts he was having a monster camp. If he makes a full recovery this year he'll definitely help the front line. Essentially picking up an extra draft pick this year.

3rd: Leonard Hankerson: Struggled early but was finally putting it together before suffering a hip injury that ended his season. During that game, he was already over 100 yards with 8 catches. Hands the size of Hakeem Nicks'.

4th: Roy Helu: Picked up the starting RB job about halfway through the season, put up 640 yards. Good combo of speed and power.

5th: DeJon Gomes: Safety started playing well at the end of the season.

5th: Evan Royster: 5.9 YPC. NFL debut saw him gain 132 yards on 19 carries against the Vikes. Then went for 113 on 20 carries against Philly. Combined with Helu, we've got a set backfield for the foreseeable future.


We drafted really well last year. Have a similar draft this year, combine RG3 with our backfield, and if Hankerson can come back and show what he did at the end last year, we'll be set. There are still holes but if RG3 can come in and play well right away like Cam Newton did last year, we'll be in awesome shape.

[Icterus galbula]

This, of course, is a great deal for StL. But why not wait until draft day? If Manning goes to Denver and Flynn signs with Seattle, you could get Miami and Cleveland desperate enough to outbid Washington.

The flip side of that is teams could have filled their needs and create less competition to trade up for the slot. I doubt StL could have wrangled out a lot more, but could have easily overplayed their hand and not gotten as much value. We'll never know.

[allstar1579]

The flip side of that is teams could have filled their needs and create less competition to trade up for the slot. I doubt StL could have wrangled out a lot more, but could have easily overplayed their hand and not gotten as much value. We'll never know.

I can't imagine that they would have gotten MORE than they got. I think WAS overpayed out of fear they'd be the odd team out of the Peyton/Flynn/Luck/Griffin set. STL got a great deal and it lets them start their draft planning knowing exactly what pick they have. The question you have now is can they still get Kalil? I'd think they might be looking at BPA with a couple needs, but Kalil was perfect for them. I mean they could probably move back up a spot or two using that 2nd rounder they got from us, but I dunno.

I just really hope this kid is worth it. 2 first rounders and a 2nd rounder, makes my begging for them to lose more last season look a little more valid.

[hoosiers]

I hope RGIII is an excellent NFL quarterback because otherwise this move smells the type of desperate move made by front offices in their third year of control working for an impatient owner.

Frankly, I would much, much rather keep adding pieces to the team and be an above average quarterback away from the elite teams than to take the gamble we just took. This fan base wants a winner in the worst way, but it feels like the organization and fans had signed up for a proper rebuild - those kind of rebuilds are done without the shortcut we just took.

The best teams in this league are the ones that accumulate draft picks. The Skins are not one of those teams.

[ccbird]

You have to look at things now, not in hindsight. IMO, Washington made a desperate move and overpaid for an unproven player. Sure, if Griffin becomes a franchise caliber QB it will make the move look much better in hindsight.


Let me ask a hypothetical question to you SKins fans. What established NFL QBs would you give up the same package for??

[OrioleMagic]

You have to look at things now, not in hindsight. IMO, Washington made a desperate move and overpaid for an unproven player. Sure, if Griffin becomes a franchise caliber QB it will make the move look much better in hindsight.


Let me ask a hypothetical question to you SKins fans. What established NFL QBs would you give up the same package for??

Aaron Rodgers and Matt Stafford.

I would also for Peyton, Eli, and Tom if they were younger.

It is only a hypothetical answer though. :)

[EddieMurrayfan]

The flip side of that is teams could have filled their needs and create less competition to trade up for the slot. I doubt StL could have wrangled out a lot more, but could have easily overplayed their hand and not gotten as much value. We'll never know.

I think you are right on target. They made out like bandits and there would have been no reason to risk throwing this away for a potential slightly better deal and then losing out on this haul.

Typical Daniel Snyder . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

But, on the other hand, when you have Rex and Beck in your stable, and, know Peyton has no interest in coming to play for you . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

[Frobby]

I like the move. I think that because of his speed and athletic ability, RGIII will be no worse than a middle-of-the-pack NFL starting QB, and he has a decent chance to be elite. If he's elite, it's a good move, and if he's middle-of-the-pack, it's still not awful considering that the 'Skins were bottom-of-the-pack at QB before this. It's really only a disaster if RGIII isn't a solid NFL starting QB, but as I said, I doubt that will be the case.

Now, from the Rams' standpoint, this is an incredible coup. They already have Bradford and now they have a ton of picks to surround him with talent over the next 3 years.

[mweb]

Things like this really irk me. Last years draft provided us a LOT. If we have another draft like that this year, we'll be in great shape. A lot of guys we drafted last year made positive contributions or were really starting to catch on before season ending injuries:

1st: Ryan Kerrigan - Stud. Arguably already better than Orakpo. Made several big plays.

2nd: Jarvis Jenkins - Torn ACL suffered in camp kept him out all year. By all accounts he was having a monster camp. If he makes a full recovery this year he'll definitely help the front line. Essentially picking up an extra draft pick this year.

3rd: Leonard Hankerson: Struggled early but was finally putting it together before suffering a hip injury that ended his season. During that game, he was already over 100 yards with 8 catches. Hands the size of Hakeem Nicks'.

4th: Roy Helu: Picked up the starting RB job about halfway through the season, put up 640 yards. Good combo of speed and power.

5th: DeJon Gomes: Safety started playing well at the end of the season.

5th: Evan Royster: 5.9 YPC. NFL debut saw him gain 132 yards on 19 carries against the Vikes. Then went for 113 on 20 carries against Philly. Combined with Helu, we've got a set backfield for the foreseeable future.


We drafted really well last year. Have a similar draft this year, combine RG3 with our backfield, and if Hankerson can come back and show what he did at the end last year, we'll be set. There are still holes but if RG3 can come in and play well right away like Cam Newton did last year, we'll be in awesome shape.

And about 40M in cap room can help address some of those other holes.

Maybe Vincent Jackson to go along with Moss, Hankerson, and 2-3 of Armstrong, Gaffney, Austin, Paul, Stallworth, etc.

Perhaps Carr or another good CB. Maybe 1-2 OL upgrades. Possibly a NT. And of course they have to either bring back or replace Fletcher and Landry.

[allstar1579]

I like the move. I think that because of his speed and athletic ability, RGIII will be no worse than a middle-of-the-pack NFL starting QB, and he has a decent chance to be elite. If he's elite, it's a good move, and if he's middle-of-the-pack, it's still not awful considering that the 'Skins were bottom-of-the-pack at QB before this. It's really only a disaster if RGIII isn't a solid NFL starting QB, but as I said, I doubt that will be the case.

Now, from the Rams' standpoint, this is an incredible coup. They already have Bradford and now they have a ton of picks to surround him with talent over the next 3 years.

Yeah I agree with you here. STL is the big winner, but a half way decent career will be a better QB than we have had since the 80's. The only concern I have about RG3 is his playing style, to a degree it's why I'm not afraid to play against Mike Vick, because at some point he's going to scramble and you're going to get a good shot in on him, once you do...he's out. Just hoping he has the impact Cam Newton had last year.

They've got some solid RBs now, should be set at TE for a year or two. I'd say another CB to play with Hall and Wilson, possibly a S to replace Landry, resigning Fletcher, and maybe another OL would be a long way towards competing.

[mweb]

With all that said regarding potential upgrades along with a good D already in place, if Griffin plays at least decently early, those two first round picks may be over 30 when added together (12, 20 for example). That won't be that steep of a price if RGIII is quite good.

The Giants weren't exactly decimated by trading up for Eli, and he wasn't even a good QB until last year.

[mweb]

Yeah I agree with you here. STL is the big winner, but a half way decent career will be a better QB than we have had since the 80's. The only concern I have about RG3 is his playing style, to a degree it's why I'm not afraid to play against Mike Vick, because at some point he's going to scramble and you're going to get a good shot in on him, once you do...he's out. Just hoping he has the impact Cam Newton had last year.

They've got some solid RBs now, should be set at TE for a year or two. I'd say another CB to play with Hall and Wilson, possibly a S to replace Landry, resigning Fletcher, and maybe another OL would be a long way towards competing.

RGIII is less likely to run than is Vick or Newton from what I have seen.

[Floater]

The comparison to Vick to Newton are pretty annoying at this point. They are all the same race and can run a bit. That's it. All of their throwing styles are much different, plus Rg3 is pass first all the way.

[hoosiers]

Another thing I do not like about this move is that we don't know where Manning is going to land. I don't want Tebow or Mark Sanchez, but it's possible Manning lands in a place where we could have picked up a QB much cheaper.

[allstar1579]

RGIII is less likely to run than is Vick or Newton from what I have seen.

That's what I'm hoping. But QB know when they run a 4.3 and rookies in the NFL tend to run more because they can't read as much as fast when plays break down. Just some minor concern, nothing big though.

[mweb]

Another thing I do not like about this move is that we don't know where Manning is going to land. I don't want Tebow or Mark Sanchez, but it's possible Manning lands in a place where we could have picked up a QB much cheaper.

Like who? Kolb? Cassell?

[mweb]

That's what I'm hoping. But QB know when they run a 4.3 and rookies in the NFL tend to run more because they can't read as much as fast when plays break down. Just some minor concern, nothing big though.

Sure, but he is more of a passing QB than either of the guys you mentioned were when they came into the league.

4.4 btw.

[allstar1579]

The comparison to Vick to Newton are pretty annoying at this point. They are all the same race and can run a bit. That's it. All of their throwing styles are much different, plus Rg3 is pass first all the way.

Comparison to Vick because of the speed (also ran a 4.3). Comparison to Newton in throwing style (pocket passer first and pretty similar to RG3). So really...tantrum unnecessary. Oh and by the way, with 179 rushing attempts and 402 pass attempts, that is FAR from pass first, that's almost a run for every 2 passes.

[Floater]

Comparison to Vick because of the speed (also ran a 4.3). Comparison to Newton in throwing style (pocket passer first and pretty similar to RG3). So really...tantrum unnecessary. Oh and by the way, with 179 rushing attempts and 402 pass attempts, that is FAR from pass first, that's almost a run for every 2 passes.

I think that is more of a reflection on the efficient player he is. He doesn't force plays. See his 72% Completion Rate and 6 interceptions. If the pass is not there, he is not going to try and force and pass in there that ends up in an interception( ala Rex Grossman). Instead, he will try to get the most yards he can in the most efficient way if the pass is not there, which would be running for some yards. He is a pass first guy.

[mweb]

Comparison to Vick because of the speed (also ran a 4.3). Comparison to Newton in throwing style (pocket passer first and pretty similar to RG3). So really...tantrum unnecessary. Oh and by the way, with 179 rushing attempts and 402 pass attempts, that is FAR from pass first, that's almost a run for every 2 passes.

Newton passed 280 times and ran 264 times his last year.
Vick passed 161 times and ran 104 times.

So not only is Griffin's ratio of pass to run significantly higher, but he was in much more of a passing offense.

And again, 4.41, not 4.3.

[backwardsk]

The problem with the Redskins drafting woes over the past decade is not so much how they've done in the 1st round, it's that their other picks have been either non-existant or haven't worked out. If they don't give up picks for guys like TJ Duckett, they'll be fine, IMO. Over the past two Shanahan/Allen drafts, they've given fans confidence with their abilities.

In 2010, they found an anchor for the O-line and a starter (Riley) in the 4th round. Last year, they were outsanding. They drafted a pass-rushing OLB who was in the discussion for defensive rookie of the year, a tandem of RBs that had a bunch of 100 yard games in the second half of the season, a big WR that went over 100 yards before he got hurt, a guard and a safety who were forced into starting roles due to injury, and a guy who was tearing it up on the D-line in preseason before going on IR. Plus they had two other guys who made contributions Niles Paul (on ST) and Nield (as a backup NT). They still have 4 picks in rounds 3-5 this draft. If they can find at least 1 starter and 2 guys that can round out the roster, they'll be looking good. They have all of the cap room necessary to go out and get quality guys in FA. I see them landing one of VJax or Colston and one of Carr or Ross. They'll pick up a safety (Lowery from Jax has been mentioned). Landry's gone I presume. There is an ILB from NC State (Cole) that I'd like for them to land in the 3rd or 4th. Having Jamaal Brown back healthy along with Lichtensteiger would be a huge boost with Hurt, Brown, and Polambo (sp?) all with valuable experience last year.

[backwardsk]

Newton passed 280 times and ran 264 times his last year.
Vick passed 161 times and ran 104 times.

So not only his Griffin's ratio of pass to run significantly higher, but he was in much more of a passing offense.

And again, 4.41, not 4.3.

He claims 4.35.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/robert-griffin-iii-disputes-40-time-at-combine-022712

Don't you go calling our star QB a liar. :)

[JohnnyK27]

Way too much IMO... 2 1st rounders maybe ...But 3 ... This my friends is the reason the Skins will never be any good.

[mweb]

Way too much IMO... 2 1st rounders maybe ...But 3 ... This my friends is the reason the Skins will never be any good.

Well it is a high cost, the way it should be viewed is 2 1st rounders since you know, they still have one this year. And this is not really that similar to moves that have gotten them in trouble in the past.

[Icterus galbula]

Well it is a high cost, the way it should be viewed is 2 1st rounders since you know, they still have one this year. And this is not really that similar to moves that have gotten them in trouble in the past.

Yes it is a loss of 2 firsts in the net, but people rightfully talk of the trade as it applies to RGIII. Three first rounders and a second for him. Johnny didn't imply otherwise. The pick should be recognized in both sides of the trade.

[mweb]

Yes it is a loss of 2 firsts in the net, but people rightfully talk of the trade as it applies to RGIII. Three first rounders and a second for him. Johnny didn't imply otherwise. The pick should be recognized in both sides of the trade.

Sure, but they aren't losing 3 first round picks, which I feel is the way some portray it. I mean really, there is no point imo of even mentioning this years 1st round pick regarding the trade. If you want to get technical, two future first rounders, a second rounder, and the switching of 1st rounders this year would be a better way of describing it.

If a team trades up from 90th to 68th and gives up a future 3rd rounder to do it, I don't think people refer to that as giving up two 3rd rounders for that player. But whatever, it's not a big deal.

[ccbird]

Sure, but they aren't losing 3 first round picks, which I feel is the way some portray it. I mean really, there is no point imo of even mentioning this years 1st round pick regarding the trade. If you want to get technical, two future first rounders, a second rounder, and the switching of 1st rounders this year would be a better way of describing it.

If a team trades up from 90th to 68th and gives up a future 3rd rounder to do it, I don't think people refer to that as giving up two 3rd rounders for that player. But whatever, it's not a big deal. You're right in the way it is often worded. It's very misleading when people say you give up 3 1st's and a 2nd. That said, I'll repeat again, giving up 2 1st's and a 2nd to move up 4 spots in the draft is insane. I would really like to hear from more Skins fans on the question I asked earlier. What established Qb's, actually lets say any players in the league QB or not, would you give up 3 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder??? I'm guessing most people won't have a list longer than 10 names. So you give up a package for an unproven player that you'd only give up for a select few established All Pro caliber players in the league??? It's insane how valued unproven, hyped prospects are in this league. Certainly not exclusive to pro football, though I would argue it's the sport where prospects are the most valued.

[mweb]

You're right in the way it is often worded. It's very misleading when people say you give up 3 1st's and a 2nd. That said, I'll repeat again, giving up 2 1st's and a 2nd to move up 4 spots in the draft is insane. I would really like to hear from more Skins fans on the question I asked earlier. What established Qb's, actually lets say any players in the league QB or not, would you give up 3 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder??? I'm guessing most people won't have a list longer than 10 names. So you give up a package for an unproven player that you'd only give up for a select few established All Pro caliber players in the league??? It's insane how valued unproven, hyped prospects are in this league. Certainly not exclusive to pro football, though I would argue it's the sport where prospects are the most valued.

Yeah, it's a huge price to pay no doubt. If he turns out to be a really good to great QB, it will be well worth it, if not, then obviously it won't be unless the Skins somehow win a title with him like the Giants won their first with Eli despite him not being really good at the time.

So that's an example where they don't regret it, and they could have had Rivers, who other than the SB argument, has been the better QB.

I'm torn on this deal, but I'm ok with it because I love RGIII. And QB is by far the most important position.

I don't think your established QB question makes much sense at all so I'm not going to answer it. But keep in mind the salary difference between all pro's and RGIII and age when you think of it that way.

BTW, prospects are most important in the NBA imo.

[ccbird]

Yeah, it's a huge price to pay no doubt. If he turns out to be a really good to great QB, it will be well worth it, if not, then obviously it won't be unless the Skins somehow win a title with him like the Giants won their first with Eli despite him not being really good at the time.

So that's an example where they don't regret it, and they could have had Rivers, who other than the SB argument, has been the better QB.

I'm torn on this deal, but I'm ok with it because I love RGIII. And QB is by far the most important position.

I don't think your established QB question makes much sense at all so I'm not going to answer it. But keep in mind the salary difference between all pro's and RGIII and age when you think of it that way.

BTW, prospects are most important in the NBA imo.

How does it not make sense?? You can trade draft picks for established players in the league. Assuming every team would accept the offer(three 1st's and a 2nd) who would you as the Skins GM offer that much for?? Be my guest to take into account age, salary,injury history, etc.


And prospects may be most important in the NBA but you never see this type of trade in the NBA because draft picks aren't as valuable and of course the rosters are much smaller meaning less draft picks. The number #10 pick in the NBA has nowhere near the value of the #10 pick in the NFL. And the further you get away from the top of the draft the more the distance between the value of picks grows. 2nd round picks in the NBA are equal to 6th or 7th round picks in the NFL. So it begs the question even more. In a league where the draft picks are easily the most valuable why do you give up so many for a single, unproven player on a roster of 53 men. Sure, QB is the most valuable position on the football field but there comes a point where you can go too far to acquire an unproven player. I think the Skins did that regardless of how it plays out 3,4, 5 years down the road.

[AgentOrange]

Word it this way, the Skins traded Orakpo, Kerrigan and a 2nd rounder for RG3. That is a lot to give up! I hope he can live up to it, going to be a lot of pressure.

[OrioleMagic]

Again, I do feel the Skins gave up too much. The unknown in this is how good RGIII will be. He could be the best QB in the NFL in 4-5 years. He could also be another Ryan Leaf/Jamarcus Russell.

There is no way to say whether this was a good move or not until the results are available.

I am hopeful based on a couple of things. RGIII is clearly an incredible athlete. RGIII did put up outstanding QB stats at Baylor last year. And most importantly, RGIII is widely reported as a high-character, astute, person and player.

[SouthRider]

Word it this way, the Skins traded Orakpo, Kerrigan and a 2nd rounder for RG3. That is a lot to give up! I hope he can live up to it, going to be a lot of pressure.

Except you only listed two 1st rounders when the Skins are giving up three. The Skins are giving up more than what you say is already a lot.

If you want to word it as "two 1sts plus a 2nd" then the return isn't RGIII. The return is the Rams agreeing to switch 1st round picks this year. Since we know the Redskins are going to use their pick on RGIII and the Rams will use their pick on another player, the trade for RGIII becomes 3 1st round picks plus a 2nd; exactly as reported.

Spin it however you like. Bottom line is the Redskins are giving up 4 players for RGIII.

[backwardsk]

Word it this way, the Skins traded Orakpo, Kerrigan and a 2nd rounder for RG3. That is a lot to give up! I hope he can live up to it, going to be a lot of pressure.

Or a package of Leodis McKelvin, James hardy, Aaron Maybin, and CJ Spiller (a collection of three straight 1st rounders and a 2nd in year 1). I'd easily do this trade.

You're correct, he will be under a lot of pressure, but I think it's a risk worth taking.

[AgentOrange]

Or a package of Leodis McKelvin, James hardy, Aaron Maybin, and CJ Spiller (a collection of three straight 1st rounders and a 2nd in year 1). I'd easily do this trade.

You're correct, he will be under a lot of pressure, but I think it's a risk worth taking.

I am basing this off of what you drafted over the last 2 years. Those are the type of players that are available where the Skins should pick over the next couple years. Picking a team with a 4 consecutive busts is a little weak.

And I agree, I was a little light on my hypothetical. Its nice to say that the new Skins War Room is picking better talent, but that should actually be a knock against the type of package given up. You have a chance to draft 4 impact players for the rights to 1 impact player. Granted, that one player could be a game changer, but 1st round picks the next two years could yield a game changing QB as well.

Its just a ton of risk, I am not sure I would be comfortable with my franchise making that move. But since the Skins have been down and out for so long, why the hell not?

[AgentOrange]

Except you only listed two 1st rounders when the Skins are giving up three. The Skins are giving up more than what you say is already a lot.

If you want to word it as "two 1sts plus a 2nd" then the return isn't RGIII. The return is the Rams agreeing to switch 1st round picks this year. Since we know the Redskins are going to use their pick on RGIII and the Rams will use their pick on another player, the trade for RGIII becomes 3 1st round picks plus a 2nd; exactly as reported.

Spin it however you like. Bottom line is the Redskins are giving up 4 players for RGIII.

Not sure why I got this tone. I agree with you that its more than what I said. I am not even a Skins fan. No reason to be a ***** about it.

[mweb]

Word it this way, the Skins traded Orakpo, Kerrigan and a 2nd rounder for RG3. That is a lot to give up! I hope he can live up to it, going to be a lot of pressure.

Yeah, well like has been pointed out, it could just as easily be two first rounders that don't turn out nearly as well and hopefully the picks won't be as high in the first round as well.

[mweb]

Except you only listed two 1st rounders when the Skins are giving up three. The Skins are giving up more than what you say is already a lot.

If you want to word it as "two 1sts plus a 2nd" then the return isn't RGIII. The return is the Rams agreeing to switch 1st round picks this year. Since we know the Redskins are going to use their pick on RGIII and the Rams will use their pick on another player, the trade for RGIII becomes 3 1st round picks plus a 2nd; exactly as reported.

Spin it however you like. Bottom line is the Redskins are giving up 4 players for RGIII.

So I guess the Skins gave up their first round pick for Kerrigan last year. And gave up their 1st rounder for Williams the year before.

[mweb]

How does it not make sense?? You can trade draft picks for established players in the league. Assuming every team would accept the offer(three 1st's and a 2nd) who would you as the Skins GM offer that much for?? Be my guest to take into account age, salary,injury history, etc.


And prospects may be most important in the NBA but you never see this type of trade in the NBA because draft picks aren't as valuable and of course the rosters are much smaller meaning less draft picks. The number #10 pick in the NBA has nowhere near the value of the #10 pick in the NFL. And the further you get away from the top of the draft the more the distance between the value of picks grows. 2nd round picks in the NBA are equal to 6th or 7th round picks in the NFL. So it begs the question even more. In a league where the draft picks are easily the most valuable why do you give up so many for a single, unproven player on a roster of 53 men. Sure, QB is the most valuable position on the football field but there comes a point where you can go too far to acquire an unproven player. I think the Skins did that regardless of how it plays out 3,4, 5 years down the road.

As far as the NBA versus NFL picks, well you were talking about the hyping and importance of elite prospects. Other than maybe elite QB prospects, there is no question that elite prospects are more important in the NBA because of how much more impact one player has in that sport. And I think you're answering your question regarding why they gave up 2 extra first rounders and the 2nd. Because the value of elite prospects are so high (they are obviously banking on playing well enough so those picks won't be bringing elite prospects back) and because the value of franchise QB's are so high.

[ccbird]

As far as the NBA versus NFL picks, well you were talking about the hyping and importance of elite prospects. Other than maybe elite QB prospects, there is no question that elite prospects are more important in the NBA because of how much more impact one player has in that sport. And I think you're answering your question regarding why they gave up 2 extra first rounders and the 2nd. Because the value of elite prospects are so high (they are obviously banking on playing well enough so those picks won't be bringing elite prospects back) and because the value of franchise QB's are so high.


SO what franchise Qbs in this league would you give up 3 1st rounders and a 2nd for??? Would you do you it for a 34 yr old Brady, 30 yr old Eli, 33 yr old Brees, 31 yr old Roethlisberger, Cam Newton, Stafford, Tony Romo ??? My point is Griffin shouldn't be valued higher than any of these guys plus some other good Qbs in the league( Cutler,Ryan, Flacco, Dalton, Schaub)but he is based on nothing but hype. TO be clear, I'm fine with making a move for an unproven QB prospect that you think can be elite but not at the extremely steep price the Skins paid.

[mweb]

SO what franchise Qbs in this league would you give up 3 1st rounders and a 2nd for??? Would you do you it for a 34 yr old Brady, 30 yr old Eli, 33 yr old Brees, 31 yr old Roethlisberger, Cam Newton, Stafford, Tony Romo ??? My point is Griffin shouldn't be valued higher than any of these guys plus some other good Qbs in the league( Cutler,Ryan, Flacco, Dalton, Schaub)but he is based on nothing but hype. TO be clear, I'm fine with making a move for an unproven QB prospect that you think can be elite but not at the extremely steep price the Skins paid.

Again, I don't think this is a good question and I'll leave it at that. You think you have some great point, I disagree.

[ccbird]

Again, I don't think this is a good question and I'll leave it at that. You think you have some great point, I disagree.

LOL. My point is youre not going to find many teams trade that kind of package for more than a couple Qbs already established in the league. Elite ones at that. To do it for RG3 is not smart. You know exactly my point but youre hedging.You know that it's not a good deal but youre so in the tank for Griffin that you're just letting it slide. Honestly, if I was a Skins fan I would be excited about getting to see RG3 play too but I'd also be pretty critical of how much the FO gave up to get him.

[mweb]

LOL. My point is youre not going to find many teams trade that kind of package for more than a couple Qbs already established in the league. Elite ones at that. To do it for RG3 is not smart. You know exactly my point but youre hedging.You know that it's not a good deal but youre so in the tank for Griffin that you're just letting it slide. Honestly, if I was a Skins fan I would be excited about getting to see RG3 play too but I'd also be pretty critical of how much the FO gave up to get him.

Not at all. The reason why I don't care to get into this is because there is a huge difference between giving up picks for a 22 year old QB that the team and many others think will be a franchise QB and giving up picks for a QB that already makes what he's worth, if not more, and is 30+ years old.

[backwardsk]

I am basing this off of what you drafted over the last 2 years. Those are the type of players that are available where the Skins should pick over the next couple years. Picking a team with a 4 consecutive busts is a little weak.

And I agree, I was a little light on my hypothetical. Its nice to say that the new Skins War Room is picking better talent, but that should actually be a knock against the type of package given up. You have a chance to draft 4 impact players for the rights to 1 impact player. Granted, that one player could be a game changer, but 1st round picks the next two years could yield a game changing QB as well.

Its just a ton of risk, I am not sure I would be comfortable with my franchise making that move. But since the Skins have been down and out for so long, why the hell not?

I'm not sure why it's weak to point out a real-life scenario. Yes, I did cherry-pick the Bills because to make an extreme point. But in reality, the production level that you'd get from 3 1's and a second would fall somewhere in the middle of the extremely bad (Bills, Jags) to the moderate (Cincy, Kansas City) to the pretty decent (Redskins-Orakpo, Trent Williams, Kerrigan and a 2nd rounder, which they didn't have in the Orakpo year). The second rounder could be of varying success as Malcolm Kelly/Fred Davis, or, form your team, Sergio Kindle/Ray Rice. Even with that, they are a 5-6 win team mainly due to the poor QB play.

My point is that when you're talking about 3 first rounders and a second, it takes a good deal of luck for them to all hit. Of course it's a big gamble to put those eggs in one basket, but we're talking about a pretty special player here. IMO it's better to go this route than hope to land a quality qb in the middle of the first round. You may end up with Aaron Rodgers or Joe Flacco, but you can also end up with Jason Campbell or Brady Quinn

[backwardsk]

LOL. My point is youre not going to find many teams trade that kind of package for more than a couple Qbs already established in the league. Elite ones at that. To do it for RG3 is not smart. You know exactly my point but youre hedging.You know that it's not a good deal but youre so in the tank for Griffin that you're just letting it slide. Honestly, if I was a Skins fan I would be excited about getting to see RG3 play too but I'd also be pretty critical of how much the FO gave up to get him.

But if you don't give up that package, you don't get him. He goes on to be a star in Cleveland or Miami or whereever and you play the what if game as you go through 3-4 more QBs over the next five years.

[Dr. FLK]

LOL. My point is youre not going to find many teams trade that kind of package for more than a couple Qbs already established in the league. Elite ones at that. To do it for RG3 is not smart. You know exactly my point but youre hedging.You know that it's not a good deal but youre so in the tank for Griffin that you're just letting it slide. Honestly, if I was a Skins fan I would be excited about getting to see RG3 play too but I'd also be pretty critical of how much the FO gave up to get him.

It's risky for sure, and it could up being a colossal failure. But, if he ends up being a franchise QB then it's worth it - even more so with the new salary rules for rookies. He *could* end up being a stud QB, who is very marketable, and very affordable. And, when people bash this deal, it seems like I keep reading how we're dealing S Taylor, Kerrigan, and Orakpo for him. Well, the deal could also very easily end up being a trade of players like Rod Gardner, Patrick Ramsey, and Michael Westbrook for a Stud QB. Time will tell. For sure it's risky. But, it certainly could also end up being a win for the Skins.

[Floater]

Holmgrem is all crying about the relationship btw Shanny and Fisher being the deal maker btw them and the Skins.

[Dr. FLK]

Holmgrem is all crying about the relationship btw Shanny and Fisher being the deal maker btw them and the Skins.

I feel so bad for him. Maybe he'd have more friends if he didn't look like a walrus.

[allstar1579]

Holmgrem is all crying about the relationship btw Shanny and Fisher being the deal maker btw them and the Skins.

It probably was, but with all the connections he has and uses (GB, SEA, and anywhere else his disciples have gone to) he should be the LAST person to cry about it.

[hoosiers]

If Holgrem knew there was a relationship, he should have bid accordingly.

Nothing stopping Holgrem from calling Shanahan right now and offering more than what we gave up.

[TonySoprano]

Would you pay what the Redskins did for RG3 or pay a fire sale price for Tebow? We know what Tebow, a former Heismann winner and National Champ, is now, but the story on RG3 is TBD.

[Floater]

Would you pay what the Redskins did for RG3 or pay a fire sale price for Tebow? We know what Tebow, a former Heismann winner and National Champ, is now, but the story on RG3 is TBD.

If I had time to type out NO 234234564357347375 times, I would

[JDubs]

If I had time to type out NO 234234564357347375 times, I would

Yeah, I'm not going to lose even a moment of sleep over "missing out" on Tebow. I'm sure Elway is doing somersaults right now after solving both his QB and Tebow problem at the same time.

[Nigel Tufnel]

How certain is it that the Colts draft Luck? Any chance they take RG3, leaving Washington with Luck? And would that be a good or bad thing?

[backwardsk]

If Holgrem knew there was a relationship, he should have bid accordingly.

Nothing stopping Holgrem from calling Shanahan right now and offering more than what we gave up.

Peter King had a good recap in his mmqb this morning. It basically said that the rams told 4 teams--was, cle, Mia, and some other team, to make their best offer by the end of that day. At the deadline, Cleveland tried to top the skins' offer and the rams refused.

[backwardsk]

How certain is it that the Colts draft Luck? Any chance they take RG3, leaving Washington with Luck? And would that be a good or bad thing?

Very slim chance, but even if it did, I'd still be happy.

[backwardsk]

I'd rather have grossman. Send Tebow to j-ville.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I'd rather have grossman. Send Tebow to j-ville.

Did you know that Grossman's full name is Rex Daniel Grossman III? So the Redskins could have a pair of RGIII's next year.

[JDubs]

Bump.

I thought this might be a good time, after ten games, to review this thread. How does everyone feel about this trade now? I was always in favor, while still acknowledging that the price was high. Obviously, I'm happier than ever about it right now. I've highlighted those who appear to have been most against the trade because I'm wondering if your thoughts have changed. [EDIT: I should clarify that some of what is included below is simply to facilitate discussion, not due to being against the trade.]


If he ends up an upper echelon QB, this deal is no biggie. If he sucks, it sets them back 5 years.


What an insane deal. To move up from 6 to 2 you give up your '13 and '14 first rounders and your '13 second rounder. Who knows, could even be more. Crazy for a guy who is despite the hype is raw. Those '13 and '14 picks could both be Top 10 even if Griffin does end up being good in the long run. That said, thank you for keeping him out of Cleveland.


Also, I said Cleveland always had the upper hand. They could have beat this deal but honestly I don't blame them for not doing it. It's too much. I really thought St Louis would play this down to the last days to draw out the best deal but really it's hard to imagine another team being crazy enough to beat the deal the Skins offer. Take it now before the SKins take it off the table.


I honestly can't figure out why some Skins fans are happy about this trade. I mean I guess I get it, in that it's nice to dream that RGIII will save everything. But those may very likely be top 10 picks again in the next to years. To me it just seems like another reminder of how similar Snyder and Angelos are... their egos make them think they are smarter than everyone else and don't need to build through the draft.


Wow, what an incredibly stupid move by the Redskins.


I think it sets them back 5 years either way. If you can't draft well, you can't win. And if you can't, um, draft, you can't draft well. The Skins don't ever seem to get this simple point...


You have to look at things now, not in hindsight. IMO, Washington made a desperate move and overpaid for an unproven player. Sure, if Griffin becomes a franchise caliber QB it will make the move look much better in hindsight.


Let me ask a hypothetical question to you SKins fans. What established NFL QBs would you give up the same package for??


Way too much IMO... 2 1st rounders maybe ...But 3 ... This my friends is the reason the Skins will never be any good.


Word it this way, the Skins traded Orakpo, Kerrigan and a 2nd rounder for RG3. That is a lot to give up! I hope he can live up to it, going to be a lot of pressure.

[square634]

Bump.

I thought this might be a good time, after ten games, to review this thread. How does everyone feel about this trade now? I was always in favor, while still acknowledging that the price was high. Obviously, I'm happier than ever about it right now. I've highlighted those who appear to have been most against the trade because I'm wondering if your thoughts have changed. [EDIT: I should clarify that some of what is included below is simply to facilitate discussion, not due to being against the trade.]

I misspelled "two" as "to", so that's pretty embarrassing. Otherwise, I think I feel the same way as I did before. RGIII has been promising, probably moreso than I expected, but the Redskins are still 4-6 and won't have first round draft picks in the next two years to help supplement the team. Whatever happens, it's going to be completely on RGIII's shoulders.

[JDubs]

I misspelled "two" as "to", so that's pretty embarrassing. Otherwise, I think I feel the same way as I did before. RGIII has been promising, probably moreso than I expected, but the Redskins are still 4-6 and won't have first round draft picks in the next two years to help supplement the team. Whatever happens, it's going to be completely on RGIII's shoulders.

Fair enough. I think the contrast between between the jubilation of Redskins fans and the dubiousness of non-Redskins fans lies in the fact that Redskins fans have seen how important the QB position is by having to endure a very long time without a good one.

Drafting is important (bolded for emphasis); however, if you don't have a great QB, your season ends before it begins. As it stands right now, RG3 looks like he will be an elite, franchise QB, IMHO. If that assessment pans out, then the worst case is that the Redskins endure two more years without a first round pick and then enjoy having a great QB to build around for the following 7 to 10 years. Furthermore, Shanahan is pretty accomplished at finding guys late in the draft who are well suited for his system. Talent will be added in the next few drafts...just not first round talent.

I'm happy to have a young, extremely gifted QB who will have to shoulder the load for a while (and who seems happy to do so), rather than have a full compliment of picks and no QB...again. Actually, I'm ecstatic about it.

[square634]

Fair enough. I think the contrast between between the jubilation of Redskins fans and the dubiousness of non-Redskins fans lies in the fact that Redskins fans have seen how important the QB position is by having to endure a very long time without a good one.

Drafting is important (bolded for emphasis); however, if you don't have a great QB, your season ends before it begins. As it stands right now, RG3 looks like he will be an elite, franchise QB, IMHO. If that assessment pans out, then the worst case is that the Redskins endure two more years without a first round pick and then enjoy having a great QB to build around for the following 7 to 10 years. Furthermore, Shanahan is pretty accomplished at finding guys late in the draft who are well suited for his system. Talent will be added in the next few drafts...just not first round talent.

I'm happy to have a young, extremely gifted QB who will have to shoulder the load for a while (and who seems happy to do so), rather than have a full compliment of picks and no QB...again. Actually, I'm ecstatic about it.

The thing is, you're talking to a Ravens fan... We have only recently gotten competent quarterback play over the past 12 years and still managed to be consistently competitive, including a Super Bowl win. Then you see what guys like Matt Cassell and Matt Flynn are able to do in place of Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers, and it makes it hard for me to buy into this idea that QB play is the be-all and end-all of winning football.

[JDubs]

The thing is, you're talking to a Ravens fan... We have only recently gotten competent quarterback play over the past 12 years and still managed to be consistently competitive, including a Super Bowl win. Then you see what guys like Matt Cassell and Matt Flynn are able to do in place of Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers, and it makes it hard for me to buy into this idea that QB play is the be-all and end-all of winning football.

Decent QBs can be good in the right system, but great QBs transcend the system they are in. I agree that it is fantastic if you can get a decent QB who is well-suited for your system for a bargain (one part scouting, two parts luck), but I just don't believe it happens that often. The classic example would be Tony Romo. The Cowboys thought they beat the odds by finding an undrafted diamond in the rough. For a while he showed potential, but ultimately, they sunk a lot of money in a guy that is never going to be better than "pretty good." They have yet to win a playoff game with him under center and he remains one of Redskins fans' favorite players. :) When Flynn and Cassel left for their respective destinations, they disappeared. Cassel looks like the guy everyone thought he was and Flynn, despite his big contract, can't even beat out a rookie for the starting job.

I'm happy that the Redskins are done looking for their Matt Cassel or Matt Flynn. By the end of his career, I am confident that the traded picks will be but a footnote in RG3's career. It will be totally worth it...for me, even if he never wins a Super Bowl. I ******* love watching him play each Sunday. Each offensive snap is an adventure...and not in the way they used to be for the Redskins.

[JDubs]

I would also like to say that I appreciate the outside perspective, square634, even if I don't completely agree with everything. It is always interesting to hear what fans of other teams are thinking.

I am interested in contrasting how opinions on the trade and RG3 have changed between fans and non-fans.

[McLovin]

I still think they gave up too much. But I'm not passionate enough about the subject really argue the point...

[JDubs]

I still think they gave up too much. But I'm not passionate enough about the subject really argue the point...

No worries. Your POV adds to the sample size.

[ccbird]

Too early to bumb the thread. RG3 looks legit but it's too early to say he's going to become elite or transcedent, in fact it's unlikely to happen. Let's remember the hype around QBs after their rookie years recently and what hppened since. I heard a lot of people all over Newton and Bradford jock after their rookie years. A lot of people over Stafford's jock for a guy who has one winning(9-7) season. A lof of people over Michael vick 2.0s jock after '10. Lets see how the league adjusts and lets see RG3 win some games. The truth is I think RG3 is good and will be good but you'd be an idiot to put him into a class like Brady, Brees, Manning, or Rodgers that can almost singlehandidly carry their teams to victory and be competitive every year. Those are the only truely elite QBs. All the other teams in the league need much more help around their QBs. It's clear that the Skins have holes around him that need filled and not just to be a SB contender but to be a playoff contender. They won't be able to fill those holes with top draft picks the next few years. So lets wait and see.


Also let me note, that I agree that first and foremost you have to have a competent QB. It's the most important position in sports. Without competent to solid QB you have no chance. It's why teams draft Qbs so high, it's why teams overpay to draft Qbs, its why teams spend money and draft picks on Qbs like Flynn and Kolb, and Cassell. That said, at the time Washington overpaid for an unproven player. A good bit more than the average team overpays to move up for a QB in the draft. You always evaluate a move at different points. I stand by the fact that the Redskins made desperate move and severly overpaid at the time it was made. We'll see how I feel in 2 years after all of your draft picks have been used. We'll see how I feel in 5 years, 10 years,etc. I think I said this earlier in the thread as well.

[JDubs]

Too early to bumb the thread. RG3 looks legit but it's too early to say he's going to become elite or transcedent, in fact it's unlikely to happen. Let's remember the hype around QBs after their rookie years recently and what hppened since. I heard a lot of people all over Newton and Bradford jock after their rookie years. A lot of people over Stafford's jock for a guy who has one winning(9-7) season. A lof of people over Michael vick 2.0s jock after '10. Lets see how the league adjusts and lets see RG3 win some games. The truth is I think RG3 is good and will be good but you'd be an idiot to put him into a class like Brady, Brees, Manning, or Rodgers that can almost singlehandidly carry their teams to victory and be competitive every year. Those are the only truely elite QBs. All the other teams in the league need much more help around their QBs. It's clear that the Skins have holes around him that need filled and not just to be a SB contender but to be a playoff contender. They won't be able to fill those holes with top draft picks the next few years. So lets wait and see.


Also let me note, that I agree that first and foremost you have to have a competent QB. It's the most important position in sports. Without competent to solid QB you have no chance. It's why teams draft Qbs so high, it's why teams overpay to draft Qbs, its why teams spend money and draft picks on Qbs like Flynn and Kolb, and Cassell. That said, at the time Washington overpaid for an unproven player. A good bit more than the average team overpays to move up for a QB in the draft. You always evaluate a move at different points. I stand by the fact that the Redskins made desperate move and severly overpaid at the time it was made. We'll see how I feel in 2 years after all of your draft picks have been used. We'll see how I feel in 5 years, 10 years,etc. I think I said this earlier in the thread as well.

We can bump it throughout his career. This isn't a HOF induction. In the same vein, no one has said he is elite or transcendent. I said he is on pace to be elite and that great QBs transcend systems.

With all that out of the way, I agree with most of what you said. And to be clear, it was (and is) absolutely defensible to say the Redskins overpaid. I didn't (and don't) agree, but it is defensible. It's just interesting to gauge whether the gamble has (or looks like it will) pay off.

[AgentOrange]

I still feel the same

[JDubs]

Any Redskins fans want to chime in?

(No disrespect to those who have posted.)

[hoosiers]

I feel largely the same - we paid too much in draft picks, we should have traded down to acquire more talent, and it's not our time - too many teams in NFC clearly superior to us.

IMO, RGIII has to become a top 5 to top 10 QB to justify the price paid and it appears he will be. The most important things with QBs are reading defenses and pass accuracy. RGIII appears to have these qualities in spades and is an exceedingly bright person and football player. The athleticism just amplifies these great qualities.

All that said, RGIII is a very slight guy and could be carted off the field with another concussion on any player. The same is true for other quarterbacks, but RGIII runs a lot and will have many more plays per game than the average QB where he might get leveled. I understand RGIII is already making better decisions, but I am going to worry about him being injured until he retires (or adds 30 pounds).

[JohnnyK27]

I would also like to say that I appreciate the outside perspective, square634, even if I don't completely agree with everything. It is always interesting to hear what fans of other teams are thinking.

I am interested in contrasting how opinions on the trade and RG3 have changed between fans and non-fans.

Looking back now I still feel the same. As a Raven fan I do have the outside perspective on this as well. I think they gave up more than they could afford. Not being able to get him some blue chip help the next few seasons will delay the Redskins rebuilding process. Also I've watched a few games and I have the same concern for him that I had for Vick. I think the hits will eventually start to take their toll and shorten his career because of them. I still think he is a nice player and hope him the best.

[JDubs]

Looking back now I still feel the same. As a Raven fan I do have the outside perspective on this as well. I think they gave up more than they could afford. Not being able to get him some blue chip help the next few seasons will delay the Redskins rebuilding process. Also I've watched a few games and I have the same concern for him that I had for Vick. I think the hits will eventually start to take their toll and shorten his career because of them. I still think he is a nice player and hope him the best.

I hear you, but RG3 is not Michael Vick. Comparing them makes me wonder whether you've consistently watched him play. He's a pocket QB who runs when necessary. Since his concussion, he has completely avoided hits from defenders; and yet, he's continued to be very effective.

[MurphDogg]

If I were the Redskins I would be willing to trade RGIII for the number 6 pick in next years draft, two additional first rounders and a second rounder. They overpaid. The Skins aren't good enough to be competitive without those picks. If he was on a team closer to competing for a title I might not make that trade but I would for the Skins.

[JDubs]

I feel largely the same - we paid too much in draft picks, we should have traded down to acquire more talent, and it's not our time - too many teams in NFC clearly superior to us.

IMO, RGIII has to become a top 5 to top 10 QB to justify the price paid and it appears he will be. The most important things with QBs are reading defenses and pass accuracy. RGIII appears to have these qualities in spades and is an exceedingly bright person and football player. The athleticism just amplifies these great qualities.

All that said, RGIII is a very slight guy and could be carted off the field with another concussion on any player. The same is true for other quarterbacks, but RGIII runs a lot and will have many more plays per game than the average QB where he might get leveled. I understand RGIII is already making better decisions, but I am going to worry about him being injured until he retires (or adds 30 pounds).

Well...He looks like he will be a top 5 to 10 QB...soooooooo.

I think worrying about the longevity of QB, in league that is obsessive (to a fault) about protecting its QBs is completely unnecessary.

And referencing back to johnnyk27'spost...Vick isn't failing due to his lack of durability. He's failing due to his poor decision-making and general failure to protect the ball. RG3 has not had this problem and, as you mentioned, he is making better decisions about when to take a hit.

I'd love to hear from Dr. FLK, All-Star, Don Quixote, Floater, or mweb (and other Redskins fans)...assuming any of them are still lurking. No offense Hoosiers, but you were a pretty vocals dissenter at the time.

[JDubs]

If I were the Redskins I would be willing to trade RGIII for the number 6 pick in next years draft, two additional first rounders and a second rounder. They overpaid. The Skins aren't good enough to be competitive without those picks. If he was on a team closer to competing for a title I might not make that trade but I would for the Skins.

Keep your day job. Please. This is ridiculous.

[MurphDogg]

Keep your day job. Please. This is ridiculous.
If the Redskins make it to the conference championship game in RGIII's first five years (the years the team has him under contract), I will admit I am wrong. I just believe the Redskins have too many holes and draft picks are by far the best way to fill holes. He sure is fun to watch though.

[Sanfran327]

If I were the Redskins I would be willing to trade RGIII for the number 6 pick in next years draft, two additional first rounders and a second rounder. They overpaid. The Skins aren't good enough to be competitive without those picks. If he was on a team closer to competing for a title I might not make that trade but I would for the Skins.

They're probably Brian Orakpo and a decent secondary away from contention as they stand right now. If they draft heavy on defense in 2013, they can earn a wild card berth or even have a shot at winning that unpredictable division.

[hoosiers]

They're probably Brian Orakpo and a decent secondary away from contention as they stand right now. If they draft heavy on defense in 2013, they can earn a wild card berth or even have a shot at winning that unpredictable division.

Perhaps, but I don't see us being better than SF, GB or Atlanta in the next two years. That's why I would have preferred to keep accumulating all the pieces before making a big grab for a QB.

As it is, I have a difficult time seeing us be competitive with the salary cap penalty we are dealing with this year and next.

Shanny and Allen have turned around the talent on the roster in an applaudable effort, but there is still another level to get to before we are legit contenders.

[Floater]

You can never pay too much for a franchise, game changing QB. May I remind people of what it was like for the Skins for the past 20 years?

And to say they can't be competitive is wrong. How many games have been out of reach for them this year? In the Rams, Bengals, Falcons, and Giants game, they were in the game in the 4th quarter. Panthers and Steelers games were out of reach. You saw what a healthy safety did for them last game, although Merriweather is now out for the season. He was a projected starter along with Tenard Jackson at the S position who was suspended for the season a day or two before the season started. Combine that with the Carriker and Orakpo injuries, that defense is really hurting. After next year, they'll get a ton of cap room back to shore up some positions.

They already have a great QB, RB, LT (Trent has been great this year), and OLB. Their Oline has played pretty decent, decent enough to keep RG3 upright making plays.

Yes, missing a 1st rounder for the next 2 years isn't fun but hell, we have RG3 who has turned our stagnant offense into an exciting, scoring machine after the past boring 20 years.

Bottom line is, they can compete in the future and this trade DID NOT set them back.

[JDubs]

You can never pay too much for a franchise, game changing QB. May I remind people of what it was like for the Skins for the past 20 years?

And to say they can't be competitive is wrong. How many games have been out of reach for them this year? In the Rams, Bengals, Falcons, and Giants game, they were in the game in the 4th quarter. Panthers and Steelers games were out of reach. You saw what a healthy safety did for them last game, although Merriweather is now out for the season. He was a projected starter along with Tenard Jackson at the S position who was suspended for the season a day or two before the season started. Combine that with the Carriker and Orakpo injuries, that defense is really hurting. After next year, they'll get a ton of cap room back to shore up some positions.

They already have a great QB, RB, LT (Trent has been great this year), and OLB. Their Oline has played pretty decent, decent enough to keep RG3 upright making plays.

Yes, missing a 1st rounder for the next 2 years isn't fun but hell, we have RG3 who has turned our stagnant offense into an exciting, scoring machine after the past boring 20 years.

Bottom line is, they can compete in the future and this trade DID NOT set them back.

I agree completely, obviously. There seems to be some sour grapes in this thread, which I find perplexing...but perhaps everyone--me included--is just wearing their [insert team color]-tinted glasses.

As I've alluded to up-thread, if you don't have a franchise QB, you are out of contention before the season starts. If you have a franchise QB, you are at least part of the discussion. Clearly, the Redskins are going to behind the eight ball for a few seasons in terms of developing drafted talent; however, RG3 will be playing football for many more than a few seasons. There will be plenty of time to develop his supporting cast. Once the Redskins get their picks back, that is when the real value of this trade will be clear.

I'll also reiterate that I believe Shanahan, despite his faults, is great at finding diamonds in the rough. He is the right man for the job of developing a roster without headline picks.

And again, regardless of all of the above, it is really a lot of fun to be a Redskins fan again. I'm quite pleased that they bit the bullet and got us our QB1.

[square634]

As I've alluded to up-thread, if you don't have a franchise QB, you are out of contention before the season starts.

I reject this premise, unless guys like Alex Smith and Joe Flacco are considered franchise QBs.

Another part of the equation, when determining whether this trade was a smart risk at the time, is what percentage of perceived "franchise QBs" coming out of the draft actually meet those expectations.

[ccbird]

The problem is assuming you know what you have in RG3. Assuming he's a franchise QB at this point. It comes back to what I said in my post yesterday. STL fans thought they had a top 10 QB in Bradford after Year 1, Car fans thought they had a franchise caliber in Newton after Year 1. Now those two assumptions are very much in doubt. Phi fans and brass(lol at the 100 mil contract) thought they had a top teir QB in Vick 2.0 two years ago. Like a rookie coming up to the big leagues and finding early success, you have to expect the pitching will adjust and find their weaknesses and make that player adjust to them. Some guys can't take it to the next level. It's too early to think you know what you have in RG3 after 10 games.

Again, I'll say that I like RG3. I like him more than I liked Newton or Bradford in their rookie years but that doesn't mean a whole lot at this point. Give it a few more years.

[ccbird]

I reject this premise, unless guys like Alex Smith and Joe Flacco are considered franchise QBs.

Another part of the equation, when determining whether this trade was a smart risk at the time, is what percentage of perceived "franchise QBs" coming out of the draft actually meet those expectations.Of course Flacco is a franchise QB. He's averaged 11 wins a year to start his career, he's never missed the playoffs. That's the definition of a franchise QB. The problem is the people that that confuse "franchise QB" with" HOF" QB.

[square634]

Of course Flacco is a franchise QB. He's averaged 11 wins a year to start his career, he's never missed the playoffs. That's the definition of a franchise QB. The problem is the people that that confuse "franchise QB" with" HOF" QB.

If winning is the definition of a franchise QB, then of course it's a tautology that you need a franchise QB to win.

[JDubs]

I reject this premise, unless guys like Alex Smith and Joe Flacco are considered franchise QBs.

Another part of the equation, when determining whether this trade was a smart risk at the time, is what percentage of perceived "franchise QBs" coming out of the draft actually meet those expectations.

Yeah, Flacco is clearly a Franchise QB, not Alex Smith. He is a system QB, particularly in the sense that in order for him to be effective, the offense has to be heavily tailored to his skill set. He was a massive bust until Harbaugh worked his magic. Now...is he decent, but it looks like he may lose his spot to Kaepernick. Franchise QB is roughly translated into a guy who is going to be in the top-10 of QBs for 7 to 10 years, by my estimation.

I completely agree that we disagree on my premise that you need a franchise QB to be in the discussion every year. And I believe that this is a determinant factor in whether you like(d) the trade or not. Clearly, opinions are being swayed by the differing POVs on the importance of a Franchise QB and building through the draft. I think everyone agrees that they are both important. The disagreement is how you weigh those competing interests--competing in this case anyways. I think having a franchise QB is more important than building through the draft for a few years. I believe the sacrifice is worth on the back end. Clearly, some folks disagree with me. I'm good with that.


The problem is assuming you know what you have in RG3. Assuming he's a franchise QB at this point. It comes back to what I said in my post yesterday. STL fans thought they had a top 10 QB in Bradford after Year 1, Car fans thought they had a franchise caliber in Newton after Year 1. Now those to assumptions are very much in doubt. Phi fans and brass(lol at the 100 mil contract) thought they had a top teir QB in Vick 2.0 two years ago. Like a rookie coming up to the big leagues and finding early success, you have to expect teams will adjust find their weaknesses and make that player adjust to them. Some guys can't take it to the next level. It's too early to think you know what you have in RG3 after 10 games.

Again, I'll say that I like RG3. I like him more than I liked Newton or Bradford in their rookie years but that doesn't mean a whole lot at this point. Give it a few more years.

I agree that no one knows what the future will hold; however, RG3's skill set makes him difficult to "game plan" not impossible, of course, but difficult. I believe that will reduce the impact of him being "figured out." He also appears to be an incredibly driven and intelligent young man. I expect him to figure a few things out himself.

[ccbird]

If winning is the definition of a franchise QB, then of course it's a tautology that you need a franchise QB to win.

Over 5 years. You know the only QB whose going to make the playoffs for the last 5 years. 11 wins a season.Thats right he's rode his defense, oh wait, you mean he has the best record he's ever had after 10 games and his defense is ranked 25th in the league. Well there goes that stupid argument. Of course pure wins aren't everything but he passes the eye test and every other test as a franchise caliber QB over the last 5 years. I've tried really hard to avoid arguing the merits of Joe Flacco but sometimes I get drawn in, especially when I see him and Alex Smith mentioned in the same breath. Let me guess, Tony Romo, Phil Rivers, Matt Ryan, Andy Dalton, Matt Schaub, Matt Stafford, Jay Cutler they are all franchise QBs and Joe isn't. LOL.

[square634]

Over 5 years. You know the only QB whose going to make the playoffs for the last 5 years. 11 wins a season.Thats right he's rode his defense, oh wait you mean he has the best record he's ever had after 10 wins and his defense is ranked 25th in the league. Well there goes that stupid argument. Of course pure wins aren't everything but he passes the eye test and every other test as a franchise caliber QB over the last 5 years. I've tried really hard to avoid arguing the merits of Joe Flacco but sometimes I get drawn in, especially when I see him and Alex Smith mentioned in the same breath. Let me guess, Tony Romo, Phil Rivers, Matt Ryan, Andy Dalton, Matt Schaub, Matt Stafford, Jay Cutler they are all franchise QBs and Joe isn't. LOL.

I'm a Ravens fan. I like Flacco because he is clearly a good quarterback, and we have won with him consistently. But he is not in the upper echelon in terms of pure statistical offensive production. When you start using team winning percentage as a major measuring stick for quarterback play, it becomes difficult to untangle cause and effect. (For example, was Archie Manning a terrible quarterback because his teams always lost?) On the other hand, it's pretty clear that statistical production alone is not a good metric either.

I guess I just don't buy the whole "franchise" and "elite" labels for quarterbacks. Was Drew Brees a "franchise quarterback" in San Diego? Since he found more success in New Orleans, is he now a "system quarterback"? Was Matt Cassel a system quarterback in 2008 while Tom Brady was a franchise quarterback in 2009? These distinctions are pretty much meaningless to me. I would generally argue that quarterback play has become overrated in terms of the overall contribution to a team's winning percentage.

[JDubs]

I would generally argue that quarterback play has become overrated in terms of the overall contribution to a team's winning percentage.

Well, let's take a look at the last 10 Super Bowls:

<tbody>
XXXVII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVII)
January 26, 2003
Tampa Bay Buccaneers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Tampa_Bay_Buccaneers_season)*
48-21
Oakland Raiders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Oakland_Raiders_season)? (5)

</tbody>
Brad Johnson vs. Rich Gannon--Neither franchise QBs although Gannon had an excellent season.

<tbody>
XXXVIII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII)
February 1, 2004
New England Patriots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_New_England_Patriots_season)? (4)
32-29
Carolina Panthers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Carolina_Panthers_season)*

</tbody>
Tom Brady vs. Jake Delhomme--Brady is clearly a franchise QB; Delhomme, not so much.

<tbody>
XXXIX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXIX)
February 6, 2005
New England Patriots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_New_England_Patriots_season)? (5)
24-21
Philadelphia Eagles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Philadelphia_Eagles_season)* (2)

</tbody>
Tom Brady vs. Donovan McNabb--both franchise QBs at the time.

<tbody>
XL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XL)
February 5, 2006
Pittsburgh Steelers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Pittsburgh_Steelers_season)? (6)[note 3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_champions#cite_note-c-16)
21-10
Seattle Seahawks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Seattle_Seahawks_season)*

</tbody>
Big Ben vs. Matt Hasselbeck--Ben is a franchise QB; Hasselbeck likely falls just barely short. He was consistent good for a long time, but not quite a franchise guy.

<tbody>
XLI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XLI)
February 4, 2007
Indianapolis Colts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Indianapolis_Colts_season)? (3)
29-17
Chicago Bears (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Chicago_Bears_season)* (2)

</tbody>
Peyton Manning vs. Rex Grossman--Peyton is a franchise QB; Rex Grossman is ewww.

<tbody>
XLII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XLII)
February 3, 2008
New York Giants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_New_York_Giants_season)* (4)[note 3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_champions#cite_note-c-16)
17-14
New England Patriots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_New_England_Patriots_season)? (6)

</tbody>
Eli Manning vs. Tom Brady--Both franchise QBs.

<tbody>
XLIII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XLIII)
February 1, 2009
Pittsburgh Steelers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Pittsburgh_Steelers_season)? (7)
27-23
Arizona Cardinals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Arizona_Cardinals_season)*

</tbody>
Big Ben vs. Kurt Warner--Both franchise guys despite Warner entering the league a bit older. He was truly elite during his time in the NFL.

<tbody>
XLIV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XLIV)
February 7, 2010
New Orleans Saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_New_Orleans_Saints_season)*
31-17
Indianapolis Colts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Indianapolis_Colts_season)? (4)

</tbody>
Drew Brees vs. Peyton Manning--Both franchise QBs.

<tbody>
XLV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XLV)
February 6, 2011
Green Bay Packers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Green_Bay_Packers_season)* (5)[note 3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_champions#cite_note-c-16)
31-25
Pittsburgh Steelers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Pittsburgh_Steelers_season)? (8)

</tbody>
Aaron Rodgers vs. Big Ben--Both franchise QBs.

<tbody>
XLVI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XLVI)
February 5, 2012
New York Giants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_New_York_Giants_season)* (5)
21-17
New England Patriots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_New_England_Patriots_season)? (7)

</tbody>
Eli Manning vs. Tom Brady--Both franchise QBs.
_________________

So by my, admittedly subjective, count--15 of the last 20 teams to play in the Super Bowl had franchise QBs.

Punditry tends to opine that the league is increasingly becoming pass-centric. Based on this information, they appear to be correct as 10 out of the last 10 teams to play in the Super Bowl had franchise QBs.

Out of those 10 Super Bowls, only one was not won by a franchise QB--the oldest and only Super Bowl not to feature a franchise QB on either team--Super Bowl XXXVII, where Tampa beat Oakland.

I'm not saying this is definitive, but it is demonstrative. QBs are extremely important to winning in the NFL.

[Sanfran327]

Perhaps, but I don't see us being better than SF, GB or Atlanta in the next two years. That's why I would have preferred to keep accumulating all the pieces before making a big grab for a QB.

As it is, I have a difficult time seeing us be competitive with the salary cap penalty we are dealing with this year and next.

Shanny and Allen have turned around the talent on the roster in an applaudable effort, but there is still another level to get to before we are legit contenders.

It's too hard to do anything without the QB, unless you're the Jets from two years ago, the current Niners, or the '85 Bears / '00 Ravens. Step #1 is taken care of with an elite QB, now they can focus on the rest. And by the time they acquire / draft enough talent to surround RGIII, the current NFC powers will be a little bit older and perhaps a bit weaker. I don't know how much longer the Niners are going to be this good, and they're my favorite team. I think they're going to have some issues retaining some of their current players that are still signed to their rookie contracts. Crabtree and Bowman come to mind first, and that's barely scratching the surface.

The beauty of the NFL is that some teams just flip a switch in one season. Like the O's did this year, the Redskins can come out next year and be 11-5 or better and it wouldn't shock me with RGIII. Plug a few holes wiht some sleeper, late-round draft picks and some savvy FA signings and they're right there. The NFC East is volatile, and is up for grabs every year. The Redskins are closer than you might think, and they have Griffin to thank.

[hoosiers]

It's too hard to do anything without the QB, unless you're the Jets from two years ago, the current Niners, or the '85 Bears / '00 Ravens. Step #1 is taken care of with an elite QB, now they can focus on the rest. And by the time they acquire / draft enough talent to surround RGIII, the current NFC powers will be a little bit older and perhaps a bit weaker. I don't know how much longer the Niners are going to be this good, and they're my favorite team. I think they're going to have some issues retaining some of their current players that are still signed to their rookie contracts. Crabtree and Bowman come to mind first, and that's barely scratching the surface.

The beauty of the NFL is that some teams just flip a switch in one season. Like the O's did this year, the Redskins can come out next year and be 11-5 or better and it wouldn't shock me with RGIII. Plug a few holes wiht some sleeper, late-round draft picks and some savvy FA signings and they're right there. The NFC East is volatile, and is up for grabs every year. The Redskins are closer than you might think, and they have Griffin to thank.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

First, the $36M salary cap penalty is a huge obstacle to compete. IMO, it is difficult to spot everyone else two $9M all-pro/near all-pro guys - which IMO is what $18M a year for two years equates to.

Second, I know it sounds easy to say to "plug holes with some sleeper picks", but we gave up future first rounders for RGIII, so we will add less talent in the next two draft than almost every other team in football - we'd essentially have to outdraft teams without a number one pick.

Third, we may have some close games, we are clearly behind GB and SF and likely behind IMO Atlanta, Chicago and possibly Seattle and NYG in the NFC alone. Sure, we have injuries, but I don't see how we make up ground in either the draft or FA in the next offseason. I don't know why our future is so much brighter than Carolina or a young Tampa Bay team.

I agree a top 10 QB is needed to succeed in the NFL and RGIII could emerge as a top 5 QB soon, but we gave up a lot to get him (folks seem to forget we haven't paid even half of the draft bill that came with acquiring him yet) and I just don't see the Skins having a window to compete in a serious manner - to have a legit shot of moving through the NFC playoffs - in the next two seasons. The Skins may benefit from new coaching regimes in Philly and Dallas and might have a legit shot at the division, but we are clearly behind at least SF and GB and won't be closing the talent gap with those teams for at least 2013 and probably 2014 (when the $18M comes back on-line).

[Floater]

Still not worth it :)

[ccbird]

Horrible job by RG3. He just single handidly ended the Jason Garrett era in Dallas. That is the last thing you wanted as a Skins fan.



BTW...he'll totally abuse the Ravens in a few weeks. The only chance we'll have is to win a shootout.

[Redskins Rick]

Worth every penny, how often do you get a chance to get a QB of his caliber? You have to pull the trigger!

[Dr. FLK]

Horrible job by RG3. He just single handidly ended the Jason Garrett era in Dallas. That is the last thing you wanted as a Skins fan.



BTW...he'll totally abuse the Ravens in a few weeks. The only chance we'll have is to win a shootout.

Lucky for you, the Skins have the worst secondary I've ever watched. The Ravens should win - and win big.

That being said - I love this RG3 fellow. And, I'm also pretty fond of this Alfred Morris guy.

[JDubs]

Lucky for you, the Skins have the worst secondary I've ever watched. The Ravens should win - and win big.

I was going to say exactly this. It should be a fun game though.

[Redskins Rick]

While the Skin's secondary is nothing to write home about, I wouldn't call them the worst ever watched, there are several bad secondaries in the league, not even good cover guys to fill all the positions. They have 14 picks and ranked 4th by interceptions, and there are several worse defenses if you are looking at combined defense numbers.

[Number5]

Lucky for you, the Skins have the worst secondary I've ever watched. The Ravens should win - and win big.

That being said - I love this RG3 fellow. And, I'm also pretty fond of this Alfred Morris guy.

I'm not sure what to make out of a statement like this. Is it that you are prone to exaggeration or that you haven't watched much football?

[JDubs]

I'm not sure what to make out of a statement like this. Is it that you are prone to exaggeration or that you haven't watched much football?

This post seems prone to generalization and/or lack of sense of humor.

[Number5]

This post seems prone to generalization and/or lack of sense of humor.

That was humor? If so, then you are right, I didn't see it. The man said the Redskins have the worst secondary he has ever watched. That made you giggle? Whatever makes you happy, I guess.

[Olson30]

Worth every penny, how often do you get a chance to get a QB of his caliber? You have to pull the trigger!

RGIII is just the next overrated rookie black QB..

We heard the same about:
Vick
Newton
McNabb
K.Stewart
Cunningham

They are great athletes but have all underperformed and have zero titles.. I would love to see one suceed but they all have been built up by the media beyond what they are..

The one's without the hype were the two best: Moon and McNair

[square634]

RGIII is just the next overrated rookie black QB..

We heard the same about:
Vick
Newton
McNabb
K.Stewart
Cunningham

They are great athletes but have all underperformed and have zero titles.. I would love to see one suceed but they all have been built up by the media beyond what they are..

The one's without the hype were the two best: Moon and McNair

Honestly, I would argue that McNabb was pretty great and probably underhyped by the media during his prime.

[waroriole]

RGIII is just the next overrated rookie black QB..

We heard the same about:
Vick
Newton
McNabb
K.Stewart
Cunningham

They are great athletes but have all underperformed and have zero titles.. I would love to see one suceed but they all have been built up by the media beyond what they are..

The one's without the hype were the two best: Moon and McNair

I don't know what being black has to do with anything, but whatever.

McNabb and Cunningham were very good QB. Vick is just trash, and threw his career away. Kordell was never a good, or hyped, QB. He was pretty good at WR.

Cam is only in his 2nd year, and while having a sophomore slump, has a long career ahead of him and a lot of room for improvement.

[JDubs]

That was humor? If so, then you are right, I didn't see it. The man said the Redskins have the worst secondary he has ever watched. That made you giggle? Whatever makes you happy, I guess.

Not "haha" funny, but certainly retrospectively amusing. It is just a game after all.

[JDubs]

RGIII is just the next overrated rookie black QB..

We heard the same about:
Vick
Newton
McNabb
K.Stewart
Cunningham

They are great athletes but have all underperformed and have zero titles.. I would love to see one suceed but they all have been built up by the media beyond what they are..

The one's without the hype were the two best: Moon and McNair

I am going to resist the urge to tell you why this post reeks of racism. It does though.

[jcarm]

RGIII is just the next overrated rookie black QB..

We heard the same about:
Vick
Newton
McNabb
K.Stewart
Cunningham

They are great athletes but have all underperformed and have zero titles.. I would love to see one suceed but they all have been built up by the media beyond what they are..

The one's without the hype were the two best: Moon and McNair

Have you watched any of his games? I do have to agree that this post reeks of racism.

[MurphDogg]

Have you watched any of his games? I do have to agree that this post reeks of racism.

Back off, he's just bitter he got fired from Monday Night Football. :)

[Olson30]

Have you watched any of his games? I do have to agree that this post reeks of racism.

Yes, I went to the Carolina game.. He looked like crap.. I will be there Sunday as well

[Dr. FLK]

That was humor? If so, then you are right, I didn't see it. The man said the Redskins have the worst secondary he has ever watched. That made you giggle? Whatever makes you happy, I guess.

The secondary is terrible. But, to make sure I don't upset you, I will go back and rank every single secondary combo I have ever watched to make sure I can provide you with an accurate - and justified - list. I apologize for upsetting you. It won't happen again.

[jcarm]

Yes, I went to the Carolina game.. He looked like crap.. I will be there Sunday as well
So you are judging his whole future on one game?

[waroriole]

So you are judging his whole future on one game?

One game and his race......so.....that's a lot to go on.

[jcarm]

Yes, I went to the Carolina game.. He looked like crap.. I will be there Sunday as well
Did you see tonights game? I suggest you stay home on Sunday-we don't need your kind at the game.

[Todd-O]

Have you watched any of his games? I do have to agree that this post reeks of racism.

I agree. Makes me want to puke.

[Olson30]

I agree. Makes me want to puke.

Get over yourself Todd.. It has nothing to do with racism..

Just pointing out the hype.. Same hype that Vick got.. Rush was correct about the media pushing and rooting for black QB's because it makes a good story..

Sure he has had a few good games.. Way to early to crown him.. Lets see how this plays out over the next few seasons..

[jcarm]

Sure he has had a few good games.. Way to early to crown him.. Lets see how this plays out over the next few seasons..

I agree it is way too early to crown him. It is also way too early to say that "RGIII is just the next overrated rookie black QB," as you stated earlier. Why is it even neccessary to bring up the color of a person's skin? This is just as relevant to the conversation as his eye color is-meaning not relevant at all.

[hoosiers]

There have been many athletic quarterbacks of the David Klingler, Heath Shuler, Akili Smith, Randall Cunningham, Michael Vick ilk that have had some, none or a good bit of success in the NFL.

What RGIII has that most athletic college QBs such as those mentioned above have lacked is the appropriate combination of accuracy, ability to read defenses/decision making and delivering the ball timely. In other words, RGIII could succeed simply as a pocket quarterback. The wicked speed and intelligence that RGIII brings to the table amplifies his over effectiveness almost exponentially.

BTW, I thought Shanahan the Offensive Coordinator called some great drives that mixed the passing with Morris runs wide left, right and then up center. Superb. I was frustrated with the quick bubble screens to the WRs called a few times last night, but not too many complaints otherwise.

Finally, I did not like the timeout at the end of the first half after first down on the 12. We should have let the clock get down to 45-50 seconds and then called the time out. We may have had to run six or seven more plays with a first down - so thats why 45-50 seconds. We clearly left too much time on the clock for the Giants at the end of the half and should have managed that much better.

[waroriole]

Get over yourself Todd.. It has nothing to do with racism..

Just pointing out the hype.. Same hype that Vick got.. Rush was correct about the media pushing and rooting for black QB's because it makes a good story..

Sure he has had a few good games.. Way to early to crown him.. Lets see how this plays out over the next few seasons..

Well, that's all I need to know.

[JDubs]

Well, that's all I need to know.

I thought the same thing.

[Floater]

I thought the same thing.

Hey, it's not racist. He is just saying the color of his skin isn't going to allow him to succeed.

[waroriole]

Hey, it's not racist. He is just saying the color of his skin isn't going to allow him to succeed.

I'm sure some of his best friends are black.

[JDubs]

Hey, it's not racist. He is just saying the color of his skin isn't going to allow him to succeed.

Haha...perhaps it is that he is too athletic to succeed. Or perhaps that he runs too much--he did run 5 whole times against the Giants. :)

[Olson30]

Well, that's all I need to know.

Rush is right about many things.. His comments are often twisted and taken out of context by non listeners and liberals who are just looking to be outraged..

[Olson30]

Hey, it's not racist. He is just saying the color of his skin isn't going to allow him to succeed.

Where did I ever say that? All I was saying that he is very over-hyped before he has ever done anything in the NFL..

[Spoonless]

Why not just say that he's the next over-hyped QB, instead of specifying black QB? There are myriad examples of overhyped QBs that you could use without ever invoking his race.

[Olson30]

Why not just say that he's the next over-hyped QB, instead of specifying black QB? There are myriad examples of overhyped QBs that you could use without ever invoking his race.

Because it reminds me of the same hype that Vick and Newton recieved.. Like I said in my original post I hope he lives up to the hype.. We shall see..

[Nigel Tufnel]

Because it reminds me of the same hype that Vick and Newton recieved.. Like I said in my original post I hope he lives up to the hype.. We shall see..

So only black QB's are over-hyped? Is that what you're saying?

[JDubs]

Because it reminds me of the same hype that Vick and Newton recieved.. Like I said in my original post I hope he lives up to the hype.. We shall see..

One thing is true...there was a ton of hype surrounding RG3 as he entered the league. While he had a great college career and showed flashes of brilliance (like Newton, Vick, and others), I think the real reason he was so hyped was his personality. He is classy and charismatic which led to him being a media darling. It is also what makes it so fun to root for him (well, that and his high level of play so far).

One must admit, at this early stage, the hype looks like it was well deserved.

[MikeAD]

One thing is true...there was a ton of hype surrounding RG3 as he entered the league. While he had a great college career and showed flashes of brilliance (like Newton, Vick, and others), I think the real reason he was so hyped was his personality. He is classy and charismatic which led to him being a media darling. It is also what makes it so fun to root for him (well, that and his high level of play so far).

One must admit, at this early stage, the hype looks like it was well deserved.

Also, it is clear (at least to me) that RG3 was the better fit for DC over Luck. Very well suited to Shanahan's offense and plays to the talents (and lack thereof) of the other offensives pieces. I don't think they are where they are with a stronger, pocket-focused QB.

[Can_of_corn]

Also, it is clear (at least to me) that RG3 was the better fit for DC over Luck. Very well suited to Shanahan's offense and plays to the talents (and lack thereof) of the other offensives pieces. I don't think they are where they are with a stronger, pocket-focused QB.

For the first time ever Shanahan is adjusting his offense to his quarterback.

[MikeAD]

For the first time ever Shanahan is adjusting his offense to his quarterback.

This is more so what I meant.

Really excited about this game on Sunday.

[JDubs]

This is more so what I meant.

Really excited about this game on Sunday.

Same here! If both teams play well, then I think the Ravens should win. But it should be a great game. It has the feel of an "anything can happen" game.

[Moose Milligan]

Rush is right about many things.. His comments are often twisted and taken out of context by non listeners and liberals who are just looking to be outraged..

Ugh....just ugh. I'm a conservative myself but this is just awful. Rush is what's wrong with the party.

Anyway, I'd give another first round draft pick if it meant RG3 were to stay healthy for the next 10 years. He's that good.

[JDubs]

Ugh....just ugh. I'm a conservative myself but this is just awful. Rush is what's wrong with the party.

Anyway, I'd give another first round draft pick if it meant RG3 were to stay healthy for the next 10 years. He's that good.

Interesting. If such a trade were possible (guaranteeing RG3's health), I would consider making it, cutting Banks, and having RG3 assume the kick returning duties. :)

[Moose Milligan]

Interesting. If such a trade were possible (guaranteeing RG3's health), I would consider making it, cutting Banks, and having RG3 assume the kick returning duties. :)

I'd like to cut Banks because....well, yeah.

I used to be a fan of his, but my buddy who is a diehard has been calling him awful for a long time, thinks he's overrated...I started coming around to his point of view during training camp and the preseason games and now I'm a full on hater. Banks is awful, provides us nothing.

[Coker]

Interesting. If such a trade were possible (guaranteeing RG3's health), I would consider making it, cutting Banks, and having RG3 assume the kick returning duties. :)


I'd like to cut Banks because....well, yeah.

I used to be a fan of his, but my buddy who is a diehard has been calling him awful for a long time, thinks he's overrated...I started coming around to his point of view during training camp and the preseason games and now I'm a full on hater. Banks is awful, provides us nothing.

Banks is terrible. Niles Paul has had the best KO return this year, and that was last week. There's no reason why Aldrick Robinson or even Richard Crawford couldn't handle the return duties.

[Dr. FLK]

I'd like to cut Banks because....well, yeah.

I used to be a fan of his, but my buddy who is a diehard has been calling him awful for a long time, thinks he's overrated...I started coming around to his point of view during training camp and the preseason games and now I'm a full on hater. Banks is awful, provides us nothing.

Banks provides nothing of value to this team. They try to use him in running plays - they never work. He doesn't get big returns anymore. He can't be used in the slot. He's a waste of a roster spot.

[Floater]

I can't tell you how many times I've said the phrase, "Oh God..." whenever I see Banks about to return it from the endzone.