Say what you want, but I like the Sosa deal

[Tony-OH]

I'm probably going to go against a lot of my own staff on this one but I like the Sosa deal as long as we didn't give up Julio in the deal. The details are still coming out and I reserve final judgement until all the facts are known, but if we acquired Sosa for Hairston, Fontenot and Crouthers, and the Cubs are paying the majority of his contract and Sosa has waived his automatic huge option contract for the next year, then I'm not sure why we shouldn't be excited about this.

Yes, I know things have soured for him in Chicago, and yes I know he had some back problems last year, and yes I know he's 36, but we're talking about a guy who is still a power bat, even in a off year.

In the last three years he's posted .274/.366/.556/.922 OPS numbers and against lefties, it's .319/.456/.585/1.041.

B&F actually traded from our strength in trading Hairston, Fontenot and Crouthers, all of which were depth. Roberts has second base nailed down and Nate Spears is the latest among second base prospects moving up the system that made Fontenot expendable. Crouthers was behind Maine, Penn, and Ray among right-handers so although he has a good arm, he was expendable.

Plus, a change of scenery might be exactly what Sammy needs. He'll get to play alongside Tejada and Mora, and won't have to shoulder the entire team's load. Remember, just a few years ago everyone loved Sammy. They loved his love of the game and how hard he played. They remember when he ran out on the field with a US flag after September 11th and we all remember how gracious he was during his home run chase with McGwire.

All things considered, I think this is win-win situation. After losing out on Delagado, we were looking at one of the weakest outfields in baseball. Well, that just changed and it cost us spare parts.

Yes, he may be a bust, but what did we really lose by trying. A lot of people said B&F had to take a chance. Well, they took a chance and I for one think it's a chance well worth taking for the price it cost.

[bigbird]

We agree my friend. I still got a feeling Julio is outa here.

[DoobyDoo]

I don't think it's too bad of a deal. I would like to get prospects (I would even take one prospect) back from the Cubs though.

[8ripken2131]

Tony, would your opinion (and the opinion's of others) change if the Cubs turened around and traded Fontenot and some of their own in a reasonable deal for Huff?

[MurphDogg]

I can't wait to see Tejada teach Sosa the twelve step handshake...

[rjslomo]

Tony, would your opinion (and the opinion's of others) change if the Cubs turened around and traded Fontenot and some of their own in a reasonable deal for Huff?
Like I said in another thread, though, is that maybe the DRays did not want to trade within the division so your question might be moot. You have a good question but think about my point too.

[33rdst]

Yes Tony I agree and I've stated this in several other posts. the nicest part of the whole thing is that Bigbird doesn't have to become a free agent now.

[Tony-OH]

Tony, would your opinion (and the opinion's of others) change if the Cubs turened around and traded Fontenot and some of their own in a reasonable deal for Huff?
That's hard to say because I'd have to know all the factors involved. What of Tampa didn't want to trade Huff to a Divisional rival? Who were the other players involved and did we have available similar players. It really depends on a lot of factors to be honest.

Would I have liked to acquired Huff. Would I want him instead of Sosa? Most likely but it would depend on the deal.

[markdublya]

Man, if it REALLY is Jerry, Font and Crouthers, we ACTUALLY found a Sammy deal I'm excited for!!!

[nadecir]

B&F actually traded from our strength in trading Hairston, Fontenot and Crouthers, all of which were depth. Roberts has second base nailed down and Nate Spears is the latest among second base prospects moving up the system that made Fontenot expendable. Crouthers was behind Maine, Penn, and Ray among right-handers so although he has a good arm, he was expendable.
Yes, I agree we traded some spare parts. But trade them for up and coming propects, not players on the decline. Sosa may help us solidify third place in the AL East this year. But will he will help us when Maine, Penn, Majewski are in their prime? This is a move to get fans in the seats this year, and maybe next, that's all.

[Jagwar]

ESPNews ticker saying it is now Hairston and 4 minor leaguers. Waiting for the report at midnight to see the latest

[Tony-OH]

Yes, I agree we traded some spare parts. But trade them for up and coming propects, not players on the decline. Sosa may help us solidify third place in the AL East this year. But will he will help us when Maine, Penn, Majewski are in their prime? This is a move to get fans in the seats this year, and maybe next, that's all.
I don't agree. Lots of players are productive into thie late 30's so who's to say Sammy won't be here to be a help? Say he has a good year next year, enjoys Baltimore, and thinks were on the edge of something. Say he resigns for something like Palmeiro did? We may not get the 60 homer Sammy, but I'll take the 35 homer Sammy.

But the key is, we are better this year and we didn't morgage the future to do it. This is a win-win situation if you ask me.

[vab]

I would like to have seen Julio for Farnsworth but, other than that, I can't really complain. The Orioles had some depth in a few spots and dealt from that.

[Brando]

Yes, I agree we traded some spare parts. But trade them for up and coming propects, not players on the decline. Sosa may help us solidify third place in the AL East this year. But will he will help us when Maine, Penn, Majewski are in their prime? This is a move to get fans in the seats this year, and maybe next, that's all.

Most fans will be very excited about this signing. It helps the O's compete with Washington for the average fan. Are you going to take your kids out to see Vinny Castilla or Sammy Sosa?

[MurphDogg]

But the key is, we are better this year and we didn't morgage the future to do it. This is a win-win situation if you ask me.

Don't forget the increased ticket sales Sosa is sure to bring, it's a win-win-win...

[jeffmantoformvp]

Most fans will be very excited about this signing. It helps the O's compete with Washington for the average fan. Are you going to take your kids out to see Vinny Castilla or Sammy Sosa?

Exactly. Heck, it makes me feel almost like a kid again.

[Tony-OH]

That's a good point. Although I believe Sammy can still be productive, he along with Tejada and Mora make the Orioles an exciting bunch to watch. That should translate to more seats sold and give the Oriole fan something to look forward to watching.

[Sapper]

Are they "popping the cork" in the warehouse tonight? :D

[Brando]

Exactly. Heck, it makes me feel almost like a kid again.

I was against dealing for Sosa, but I can't help but like this deal. I've got tingles down my spine.

[Ransom]

I agree with Tony as well, so long as its the three players rumored.

The best part about this deal is Tom Boswell will have to eat his words from that silly column yesterday. The National's haven't had a better off season now, and we beat them out on the deal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39921-2005Jan26.html

Tom Boswell has turned into such an Oriole hatter, I’m sure hill spin us beating out the Nationals.

As late as Friday afternoon, the Cubs also were talking to the Washington Nationals about a deal to send Sosa to the new team in the nation's capital. See http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/8142226

[Gibby]

I don't agree. Lots of players are productive into thie late 30's so who's to say Sammy won't be here to be a help? Say he has a good year next year, enjoys Baltimore, and thinks were on the edge of something. Say he resigns for something like Palmeiro did? We may not get the 60 homer Sammy, but I'll take the 35 homer Sammy.

But the key is, we are better this year and we didn't morgage the future to do it. This is a win-win situation if you ask me.

And that 35 HR Sammy only played in 126 games. The DH and close confines of Camden can only help increase this output (unless, of course, his age has something to say about that). I'm really liking this. Low risk, High reward.

[ScottieBaseball]

I can't wait to see Tejada teach Sosa the twelve step handshake...

MurphDogg...where have you been? Good to hear from you.

Anyway...the first thing that popped into my head a few minutes ago as my wife and I lay in bed and I flipped to ESPNews to find the trade was nearly complete was this:

Name 2 players that have more fun playing baseball than Miguel Tejada and Sammy Sosa. Go ahead and try. There aren't any. We argue stats, X's and O's all we want. The bottom line is this team is going to be more fun to watch in 2005 than it has been in many years.

Welcome, Slammin' Sammy Sosa to Baltimore. Bring on the 2005 MLB season!!!

[PJ - O's Fan]

This is truly amazing to me. The team we supposedly support has traded away our 2B of the future with great upside, a pitcher with upside (and possibly 2 more prospects depending on the deal) for an old, selfish outfielder who can't field and who hit .254 last year. Jerry as our CF would have been a much better situation than this. At least he gets on base and can catch the damn ball.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[BirdMan]

And that 35 HR Sammy only played in 126 games. The DH and close confines of Camden can only help increase this output (unless, of course, his age has something to say about that). I'm really liking this. Low risk, High reward.

I don't think the confines of OPACY will be as easy to hit HR's as Wrigley is.

[Sapper]

That's a good point. Although I believe Sammy can still be productive, he along with Tejada and Mora make the Orioles an exciting bunch to watch. That should translate to more seats sold and give the Oriole fan something to look forward to watching.

That's the only thing a move like this would be about. And I for one am tired of half-measures and reactive moves just to sell seats for one season. How does this deal make us better long-term?

Shame on you, Tony, for falling for this typical Angelos fluff smoke and mirrors. :(

[jincargo]

Lets see...Big time hitter who has lost his pop and can no longer cork his bats since he was caught.

Yay.

What a desperate move.

[markdublya]

This is truly amazing to me. The team we supposedly support has traded away our 2B of the future with great upside


?????????? The extra second baseman on the team(?) is the 2nd baseman of the future?! It wasn't even going to be his job THIS YEAR.

[MurphDogg]

?????????? The extra second baseman on the team(?) is the 2nd baseman of the future?! It wasn't even going to be his job THIS YEAR.

He was referring to Fontenot, who is A) Not that much younger than Roberts and may not be better and B) Is seen by many as less of a prospect than Nate Spears...

[PJ - O's Fan]

?????????? The extra second baseman on the team(?) is the 2nd baseman of the future?! It wasn't even going to be his job THIS YEAR.

I guess you don't know anything about Fontenot :rolleyes:

[Tony-OH]

That's the only thing a move like this would be about. And I for one am tired of half-measures and reactive moves just to sell seats for one season. How does this deal make us better long-term?

Shame on you, Tony, for falling for this typical Angelos fluff smoke and mirrors. :(
Are you kidding me? This does make the team better and if the rumored players involved is all we gave up then this doesn't hurt our future either way. I can't see how anyone can have a bad opinion of this move. We are better this year. We are more exciting to watch, and potentially, this deal could have a huge upside. Can you say that about anything else this offseason?

[Gibby]

I don't think the confines of OPACY will be as easy to hit HR's as Wrigley is.

Even with the shorter LF-LC?

Wrigley: 355 L, 368 LC, 400 C, 368 RC, 353 R

Camden 333 L, 364 LC, 410 C, 400-373 RC, 318 R

[Henstones]

Fontenot didn't have a great year at Ottawa. I think we're in pretty good shape at second base for a few years with Roberts. We can get Newhan some games at second now, which should also be a plus.

[Brando]

That's the only thing a move like this would be about. And I for one am tired of half-measures and reactive moves just to sell seats for one season. How does this deal make us better long-term?

Shame on you, Tony, for falling for this typical Angelos fluff smoke and mirrors. :(

It buys you some time till Majewski and Markakis are ready for the bigs. It also gives Gibby a chance to play 1b and to prove whether or not he is a part of the fututre of this club.

[Mackus]

If the move is Sammy + $10M or so for Jerry, Fontenot, and Crouthers, then its, at worst, an ok move and at best a good move.

I'm excited as hell because I know the type of player Sosa can be, but I'm disappointed that it got to the point where we had to go after him.

If theres no commitment for 2006 and the worst case is we lost 3 guys who didn't even fit at all here, then its at wrost a neutral move. I'm gonn aroot my a** moff for Sammy, but I still am not 100% behind this move, although it could turn out to be great.

This is, essentially, a good medium risk, hihg reward move for the Birds.

[Tony-OH]

This is truly amazing to me. The team we supposedly support has traded away our 2B of the future with great upside, a pitcher with upside (and possibly 2 more prospects depending on the deal) for an old, selfish outfielder who can't field and who hit .254 last year. Jerry as our CF would have been a much better situation than this. At least he gets on base and can catch the damn ball.

:mad: :mad: :mad:
Our second baseman of the futre is Brian Roberts, who happens to currently be the second baseman. Spears is a good looking second base prospect as well. Fontenot s still a below average defensive second baseman who doesn't hit for power or steal enough bases to be a top flight regular. He's small, and probably never going to be more than a backup or a starter on a lower echelon team.

Crouthers has a good arm but he's erratic and probably a releiver when it's all said and done. Still, he's one of those guys you move in a deal like this without question. As for Hairston, I like him but he's fragile and he was depth behind Roberts and Matos/Bigbie.

[Sapper]

Are you kidding me? This does make the team better and if the rumored players involved is all we gave up then this doesn't hurt our future either way. I can't see how anyone can have a bad opinion of this move. We are better this year. We are more exciting to watch, and potentially, this deal could have a huge upside. Can you say that about anything else this offseason?

If we were not going to go after Sosa, Delgado/Sexson AND Martinez/Hudson/Clement/etc and actually contend, why go after just one? It's a half measure. What good is trading Hairston and prospects for someone that probably just makes us a .500 club?

We should either fish or cut bait with expensive former all-stars.

This is just about selling seats and not about contending. That's what's not to like...

[KurtCDavidson]

OK, my first reaction is "please tell me I had one too many Labatt Blues tonight." I don't like Sosa and I didn't support trading for him - BUT - I have to admit this deal is not that bad depending on how much of money the Cubbies chip in. Sosa is on a MAJOR decline, but if it is true that he waived his ridiculous option year (BTW didn't MLBPA have a huge problem with this) he could be productive. Jerry needed to go somewhere new. Fontenot and Crouthers - who cares? My concern is that since the 'juice' will be banned next year I hope that we don't see a truly startling statistical decline. The man takes 'roids. You can't convince me otherwise. However, if the guy bats .260 with 30 hrs (PECOTA projects .259 and 26) it may not be a bad deal to VORP at 25.3 next season. Now if we trade for a pitcher (Vazquez PECOTA VORP 28.7), sign a first baseman (Fullmer PECOTA VORP 22.1), and somehow have enough leftover to run at Cameron (24.4), Huff (40.0), or sign a very risky Magglio (30.5) I think we make ourselves a contender. Sosa alone does not convince me - but I like the deal thus far.

[Tony-OH]

If we were not going to go after Sosa, Delgado/Sexson AND Martinez/Hudson/Clement/etc and actually contend, why go after just one? It's a half measure. What good is trading Hairston and prospects for someone that probably just makes us a .500 club?

We should either fish or cut bait with expensive former all-stars.

This is just about selling seats and not about contending. That's what's not to like...
If nothing you are consistent. I expected this kind of reaction from you anyways. Nothing could possibly make you happy about the Orioles. It's not your fault, it's just your personality. Overly negative people have a hard time ever seeing the bright side of things. Personally, it's sad to see, but hey, life goes on and you'll continue to complain about it.

I'll say again, this deal (if the rumored one is true) makes the club better and has an upside that could make us a contender. But I guess it would have been better to have gone into the year with two second basemans on the roster and still no right-handed power.

[Icebird]

This O's chick is right there with you, Tony. I was on the "No to Sosa" side of things until we lost out on Delgado... and until I talked to a friend of mine, a baseball fanatic in Chicago.

To me, it's key that Julio wasn't involved in this deal (that, and the ton of money reportedly coming our way, of course). Let's hope he can be used as part of a Vazquez deal down the road.

Jerry lost his position, Fontenot's position is essentially blocked for many years by B-Rob, and Crouthers, while being a hard thrower, is also wild. Whether he ever puts it all together remains to be seen. So are we trading away people we will truly "miss?" No.

As my Chicago pal pointed out, don't forget that Sammy still has a cannon for an arm. He should fare better defensively than anything we put out there in RF last year! And, on our team at least, he's still a legit #3 or #4 hitter. Even with what went on last year, many people are saying a change of scenery will be key for Sammy, and his agent said he's "highly motivated." I would be, too.

Remember that Miggy is very good friends with Sammy. I don't forsee Miggy putting up with any crap, nor do I see Maz putting up with any garbage. Sammy won't have to be the lone "man" here - this is still Miggy's team. And yes, he will put fannies in the seats. Whether or not that was Angelos' main objective or not, like many others here have said, I think it's a low risk gamble. The reward may not be as high as it might have been in earlier years, but I think (and hope) we'll be pleased with the results! Welcome to the orange and black, Sammy!

[Sapper]

If nothing you are consistent. I expected this kind of reaction from you anyways. Nothing could possibly make you happy about the Orioles. It's not your fault, it's just your personality. Overly negative people have a hard time ever seeing the bright side of things. Personally, it's sad to see, but hey, life goes on and you'll continue to complain about it.

I'll say again, this deal (if the rumored one is true) makes the club better and has an upside that could make us a contender. But I guess it would have been better to have gone into the year with two second basemans on the roster and still no right-handed power.
No need to attack me personally.

This is what I would like to see and I wouldn't complain:

A PLAN!!!!!!

How is this part of any plan to make us a contender? That is what we all want right?

Seems to me we could go young and build a contender over years. If that were a stated goal they actually followed through with it with real commitment, I could support it.

Another plan could be to go with all-star free agents and trades and stack a team to compete right now.

But we continue to be on the fence. I'm only negative because I don't like the direction we're going and I think it shows how the "command emphasis", if you will, is always about short term selling tickets and there's no long-term plan. This isn't about "personalities", Tony. This is about what I think is continued failure by this team to define a strategy for fielding a winner and sticking with it.

When the season starts and I am wrong, I will promise to be the most positive person here.

[Max Power]

This seems like an absolute panic move which is par for the course with this team that is more interested in selling tickets than building a winner. At this point we'll have Sosa, Lopez, Palmeiro, and Ponson all leaving the team once we find out if Bedard and the like are ready to contribute, brilliant. :rolleyes: I'll reserve ultimate judgment until we figure out how much money is going to be spent on Sosa but there had to be better options. Besides the fact that Sosa exposed himself to be a self-centered jerk last year (nothing in common with Tejada) the guy is on a downward spiral to Bolivian. Maybe the Cubs will be picking up millions on this deal but I have to believe there is a handshake somewhere where Sosa resigns for a couple more years in Baltimore. This team is making it very hard for me to follow right now.

[BaltBird 24]

Sosa will be on his chase for 600 this season as he currently stands at 574. That should atleast be for some excitement.

[javylove]

I don't really understand all the talk about "not being in contention so why bother with all-star players." Hasn't a lot of talk on this board been our failure to sign free agents because they want to play for a team that is a contender? The only way to be a contender is to keep moving up... and we did that, last year. And all signs point to us moving up more this year- maybe not to second or first place, but maybe we'll break .500 this year, maybe we'll be in the wild card race, who knows? That's what makes baseball so much fun to watch- sometimes a team just "clicks" and all the stats in the world that "prove" them to be an inferior product mean nothing.

I understand, you don't want to give away the future of our team for one player in a year where it doesn't seem like our chances have been optimized. I don't feel that anyone can make a case that we have done that with this trade, however.

[Max Power]

If nothing you are consistent. I expected this kind of reaction from you anyways. Nothing could possibly make you happy about the Orioles. It's not your fault, it's just your personality. Overly negative people have a hard time ever seeing the bright side of things. Personally, it's sad to see, but hey, life goes on and you'll continue to complain about it.

I'll say again, this deal (if the rumored one is true) makes the club better and has an upside that could make us a contender. But I guess it would have been better to have gone into the year with two second basemans on the roster and still no right-handed power.

Tony, I respect your opinion but a contender? Have you looked at Sosa's decline since 2001? It is horrific. Sure this might make us a better team for this year but this does nothing but give us more age that won't be around when/if Bedard, Bigbie, Maine, and the other youngsters are ready to perform at the level that is needed to contend. Looking at the past three years I dont see how you can project anything better than 40 homers, 135 games,and an OPS of .850 from Sosa. Unless you want to play Raffy at first this is also a major downgrade in the OF and Sosa will get hurt again.

[Tony-OH]

No need to attack me personally.

This is what I would like to see and I wouldn't complain:

A PLAN!!!!!!

How is this part of any plan to make us a contender? That is what we all want right?

Seems to me we could go young and build a contender over years. If that were a stated goal they actually followed through with it with real commitment, I could support it.

Another plan could be to go with all-star free agents and trades and stack a team to compete right now.

But we continue to be on the fence. I'm only negative because I don't like the direction we're going and I think it shows how the "command emphasis", if you will, is always about short term selling tickets and there's no long-term plan. This isn't about "personalities", Tony. This is about what I think is continued failure by this team to define a strategy for fielding a winner and sticking with it.

When the season starts and I am wrong, I will promise to be the most positive person here.
BTW, I didn't attack you personally, I pointed out facts. You are a negative person on these boards. You are negative about everything. That's not an attack, it's a valid observation.

I really don't have a problem with you since you usually stay away from immature comments like "lil petey" or telling players they suck. Don't get too defensive. I don't agree with a lot of what you say but I believe you have the right to say it, and your normally do it respectfully.

[Sapper]

Tony, I respect your opinion but a contender? Have you looked at Sosa's decline since 2001? It is horrific. Sure this might make us a better team for this year but this does nothing but give us more age that won't be around when/if Bedard, Bigbie, Maine, and the other youngsters are ready to perform at the level that is needed to contend. Looking at the past three years I dont see how you can project anything better than 40 homers, 135 games,and an OPS of .850 from Sosa. Unless you want to play Raffy at first this is also a major downgrade in the OF and Sosa will get hurt again.
I agree. My name my be tainted here for being "overly negative" -- as if that were possible facing an 8th straight losing season and an offseason more about court cases and Aruban fist fights than improvement -- but this is "smoke and mirrors". How does this fit into any long or short term plan to be a contender? It doesn't. It's cosmetic.

[Sapper]

BTW, I didn't attack you personally, I pointed out facts. You are a negative person on these boards. You are negative about everything. That's not an attack, it's a valid observation.

I really don't have a problem with you since you usually stay away from immature comments like "lil petey" or telling players they suck. Don't get too defensive. I don't agree with a lot of what you say but I believe you have the right to say it, and your normally do it respectfully.

Fair enough. Sorry for being touchy. My patience with this FO is just worn out. Some people can take it longer than others I guess.

[Tony-OH]

Looking at the past three years I dont see how you can project anything better than 40 homers, 135 games,and an OPS of .850 from Sosa.

Are you telling me that won't help us? Seriously, I'd be elated with that production and I do believe with that producation and some starters stepping up, we could be contenders. Do I think it's likely, most likely not. But I do think we are in better shape than we were before the trade and we didn't morgage any of the future (as far as we know) to do it.

I was against the trade when I heard we were gving up Gibbons and Julio and we were going to have to pay him that huge salary as well as take on his huge option year. The deal that's out there right now does none of that. I can't see how this isn't a win-win situation. It's not like we made this trade over a Texiera deal or something and no one said we're done yet.

[Sapper]

Are you telling me that won't help us? Seriously, I'd be elated with that production and I do believe with that producation and some starters stepping up, we could be contenders. Do I think it's likely, most likely not. But I do think we are in better shape than we were before the trade and we didn't morgage any of the future (as far as we know) to do it.

I was against the trade when I heard we were gving up Gibbons and Julio and we were going to have to pay him that huge salary as well as take on his huge option year. The deal that's out there right now does none of that. I can't see how this isn't a win-win situation. It's not like we made this trade over a Texiera deal or something and no one said we're done yet.

At least that's true (we hope). That would have been awful. This deal, as reported, is at least neutral in terms of the future. I still think its just cosmetic.

[Max Power]

Are you telling me that won't help us? Seriously, I'd be elated with that production and I do believe with that producation and some starters stepping up, we could be contenders. Do I think it's likely, most likely not. But I do think we are in better shape than we were before the trade and we didn't morgage any of the future (as far as we know) to do it.

I was against the trade when I heard we were gving up Gibbons and Julio and we were going to have to pay him that huge salary as well as take on his huge option year. The deal that's out there right now does none of that. I can't see how this isn't a win-win situation. It's not like we made this trade over a Texiera deal or something and no one said we're done yet.

Will it help sure, are we contenders no. Also that is a best case scenario which I dont see Sosa coming anywhere near. I'll be shocked if he hits 30 and plays in 110 games next year. If this was to complement several other moves to compete this year I'd be ecstatic. But this move alone sucks and it isnt enough.

I'll be back tomorrow as my g/f is ready to kill me since I have been a pain in the rear since hearing this during dinner.

[Rockbird]

I was shocked to read this news and conflicted on how to feel, but I'm starting to think "what the hell" this is a low risk type move that could pay off. If all we're giving up is Hairston (who needed to go anyway) and B-C level prospects AND CHicago is picking up a huge bulk of his contract AND we don't have to pick up his option the next year, then there's really no downside to this move.

I was more upset then anybody about losing out on Delgado and this offseason in general but the one thing I've said from the beginning is the O's need to takes some risks and start acting like a contender if they want to be one. Trading for Sosa is a really ballsy move. Panic move? Push to one up DC? Oh hell yeah it is. But if they pulled it off for as little as being reported and we barely have to pay him then I have to commend B&F for potentially pulling off a coup.

Delgado and friends are in the past, we missed out on them there's nothing we can do. Now we needed to make an impact and we did.

Worst case scenario is he stinks and then we let him walk and that will be that. It will at least create more excitement for the team and bring more out to the Yard.

Best case scenario is he has a rejuvenated year away from the unfriendly surroundings of Chicago, their media and that curmudgeon Dusty Baker and ready to prove he's "still got it" and finds his stroke again and his love of the game with help from the infectious Miguel Tejada.

AND since we apparently didn't have to trade away any big parts, we still have the resources (Julio, etc.) to go out and work a deal for that starter (like Vazquez) that we need.

I'm still conflicted but I'm coming around. I think we should give it a chance to work out and welcome Sammy to Baltimore and hope he finds sucess late in his career...

[Sapper]

Here's my complaint in a nutshell and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong:

We reportedly trade Hairston and two prospects for Sosa and likely increase our payroll. Sosa doesn't make us a contender and is old and declining and could very well be a one-year rental. With the limited resources this team has in dollars and tradable players/prospects, could we have done much better in trading Hairston and two prospects? I think so. We waited two seasons to trade Hairston for a declining roid-less Sosa?

That's what I don't like about this......

Tell me I'm wrong.

[bluedog]

I said it 2 months ago and I'll say this again. Trading Hairston (a back up player on the O's squad) and any number of 2nd tier minor league prospects for a certain 1st ballot hall of famer who will definitely get his 600th homer in an O's uniform and has a shot at 700 is an absolutely fantastic business move by the O's. Anyone who thinks this is a panic reaction by the front office is silly.

B&F probably just increased attendance by 150 - 200 k for the season. Sosa is easily worth 2000 tickets a game even if he's just a "pedestrian" .260 hitter with 35 home runs. On the other hand if he gets healed up from the injuries that slowed him last year and plays a full season, he could hit 50 (or dare I say, 60!) taters for the Birds. If THAT happens then attendance will jump dramatically.

This is another example of the O's being very very deliberate and forcing people to either go their way or the highway. There is no way the Cubs wanted to trade Sammy for a guy named Hairston and some AA players and STILL have to eat a significant chunk of his salary. The deliberate strategy didn't work with Delgado, Pavano and the A's -- but it got them what may eventually be considered one of the most lopsided trades in baseball history (in their favor no less) since the Glenn Davis trade.

Sure there is a chance that Sosa will continue to wear down and quietly fade into retirement. But there would seem to be a much bigger chance that Tejads helps him regain his excitement for the game and Sosa enjoys a resurgance in Charm City.

Whatever else you say, we've just replaced a spot in our batting order that was filled with Luis Matos, Karim Garcia or Luis Lopez as often as not with a guy that's got 40+ HR power and true star power.

And consider this: Sosa has never played in a lineup with guys like Roberts and Mora setting the table for him and Tejada and Javy protecting him. If Roberts continues to progress and ups his OBP a bit, Sosa will have a lot of ducks on the pond ahead of him this season and a lot of fastballs to swing at.

Now what the O's need to do is really aggressively go after Ordonez. Mags hitting 3rd, Tejada 4th and Sosa 5th would truly be a sight to see. Sure the Cubbies will probably get him, but Mags might just wanna land in Baltimore with all the other latin super stars.

Great move B&F. Great business move. Great PR move and very likely a Great baseball move as well.

[geschinger]

Here's my complaint in a nutshell and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong:

We reportedly trade Hairston and two prospects for Sosa and likely increase our payroll. Sosa doesn't make us a contender and is old and declining and could very well be a one-year rental. With the limited resources this team has in dollars and tradable players/prospects, could we have done much better in trading Hairston and two prospects? I think so. We waited two seasons to trade Hairston for a declining roid-less Sosa?

That's what I don't like about this......

Tell me I'm wrong.

You are wrong.

[Rockbird]

Here's what I posted back in a thread asking if we'd be happy trading for Sosa if the Cubs picked up over half his contract, I think I still agree with my thinking:


All things considered, if the Cubs are willing to pick up over half his contract, then I really don't see why not. Even a declining Sosa is legite power threat in our lineup, plus if he's recovered from his injuries he could hit 40+ homeruns, and surrounded by the likes of Tejada, Lopez and Mora... in the order, those RBIs should shoot up.
I think it's worth a gamble. The O's don't often take gambles which is I think to their detriment. If he doesn't work our, it's just 2 (EDIT: ONE) seasons. This is not Albert Belle 5 years here. He'd be gone after 2006 (EDIT: 2005). But if it works out he could seriously make our team more of an offensive threat, not to mention help take the pressure off our young pitching staff which we've failed to upgrade.
This is not to mention the obvious main stream pub, PR and fan interest he would draw to Baltimore. He is a bonafide superstar and would move tickets, merchandise and bring media.
I don't by the crap about his attitude. You try playing for Dusty Baker. I don't think any player has good things to say about him, sounds like a real taskmaster. I remember back to the late 90s when he was one of the most fun loving ambassadors of the game, always with a smile on his face. I think playing with his countryman, the contagious Miguel Tejada will bring that back out of him.
As for the other arguments, the corked bat incident happened, let it go. He contends it was a mistake. Whether it was or wasn't he sure as hell won't be doing it again. It's not like every player we've ever signed has never done something stupid and gotten suspended before.
As for the steroids, until he comes out and admits to it, it's complete baloney to indict him for it. Past major leaguers have predicted that 40-50% of players are on the stuff so if you indict one, you have to provide the same standards for everyone (Hint: I think a popular outfielder/1st baseman who we recently signed to a contract experienced a suspicious amount of muscle loss and bad production and brittle injuries to coincide with the recent "steroid cleanup" in baseball).
What would be giving up? Hairston we need to trade because there's really no place to play him unless you want him in CF (EDIT: Called this one) and Julio we all have been itching to trade too (EDIT: We didn't have to!) and we would be aquiring Farnsworth who takes Julio's place as the righty setup and we all seem to fawn over him, so we would be getting another quality player back.
Folks, the more I think about it, the more I think this is worth it.
My main qualms would be his contract and what we would be giving up. If the Cubs pick up at least 60% of his contract and we only have to give up Hairston and Julio (EDIT: Only Hairston!) who we have no use for anyway, I say we do it.
Remember it's only 2 (EDIT: ONE) years. And you never know, he might actually surpise you and be productive...

[Tony-OH]

I said it 2 months ago and I'll say this again. Trading Hairston (a back up player on the O's squad) and any number of 2nd tier minor league prospects for a certain 1st ballot hall of famer who will definitely get his 600th homer in an O's uniform and has a shot at 700 is an absolutely fantastic business move by the O's. Anyone who thinks this is a panic reaction by the front office is silly.

B&F probably just increased attendance by 150 - 200 k for the season. Sosa is easily worth 2000 tickets a game even if he's just a "pedestrian" .260 hitter with 35 home runs. On the other hand if he gets healed up from the injuries that slowed him last year and plays a full season, he could hit 50 (or dare I say, 60!) taters for the Birds. If THAT happens then attendance will jump dramatically.

This is another example of the O's being very very deliberate and forcing people to either go their way or the highway. There is no way the Cubs wanted to trade Sammy for a guy named Hairston and some AA players and STILL have to eat a significant chunk of his salary. The deliberate strategy didn't work with Delgado, Pavano and the A's -- but it got them what may eventually be considered one of the most lopsided trades in baseball history (in their favor no less) since the Glenn Davis trade.

Sure there is a chance that Sosa will continue to wear down and quietly fade into retirement. But there would seem to be a much bigger chance that Tejads helps him regain his excitement for the game and Sosa enjoys a resurgance in Charm City.

Whatever else you say, we've just replaced a spot in our batting order that was filled with Luis Matos, Karim Garcia or Luis Lopez as often as not with a guy that's got 40+ HR power and true star power.

And consider this: Sosa has never played in a lineup with guys like Roberts and Mora setting the table for him and Tejada and Javy protecting him. If Roberts continues to progress and ups his OBP a bit, Sosa will have a lot of ducks on the pond ahead of him this season and a lot of fastballs to swing at.

Now what the O's need to do is really aggressively go after Ordonez. Mags hitting 3rd, Tejada 4th and Sosa 5th would truly be a sight to see. Sure the Cubbies will probably get him, but Mags might just wanna land in Baltimore with all the other latin super stars.

Great move B&F. Great business move. Great PR move and very likely a Great baseball move as well.
I agree 100%.

On top of it all it's a low risk move from all reports.

[ledzepp8]

That's the only thing a move like this would be about. And I for one am tired of half-measures and reactive moves just to sell seats for one season. How does this deal make us better long-term?

Shame on you, Tony, for falling for this typical Angelos fluff smoke and mirrors. :(
It certainly doesn't hurt us in the long term. It can only make us better. We traded the oft injured Jerry Hairston and two players who basically had no home with us.

[Sapper]

It certainly doesn't hurt us in the long term. It can only make us better. We traded the oft injured Jerry Hairston and two players who basically had no home with us.
You know if we're going to trade away players and prospects, I'd rather it help us long term. I really don't hate this move. I'm just not at all excited by it. I think its just cosmetics and I'm disappointed we're apparently falling for it.

[Brando]

Now what the O's need to do is really aggressively go after Ordonez. Mags hitting 3rd, Tejada 4th and Sosa 5th would truly be a sight to see. Sure the Cubbies will probably get him, but Mags might just wanna land in Baltimore with all the other latin super stars.

You bring up a great point here. I don't think that Maggs will be in an O's uniform. But the power of this move to make Baltimore a more attractive destination for latin players is a possibility.
The future of this game is going to be paved by latin players. Rescuing Sosa from Chicago and allowing him to finish his career with his pride could bolster our reputation in the future.

[fansince71]

Here's my complaint in a nutshell and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong:

We reportedly trade Hairston and two prospects for Sosa and likely increase our payroll. Sosa doesn't make us a contender and is old and declining and could very well be a one-year rental. With the limited resources this team has in dollars and tradable players/prospects, could we have done much better in trading Hairston and two prospects? I think so. We waited two seasons to trade Hairston for a declining roid-less Sosa?

That's what I don't like about this......

Tell me I'm wrong.

Your wrong . Sammy will be here for at least 2 years.

[Gibby]

You know if we're going to trade away players and prospects, I'd rather it help us long term. I really don't hate this move. I'm just not at all excited by it. I think its just cosmetics and I'm disappointed we're apparently falling for it.

Hairstons value is/was low due to past injuries. Sosa could turn out to be good for 2-3 years, but if not, we lost absolutely nothing. No long term contract and no loss of great talent in the system (allegedly, I know this could change). What more would you want? Where would you move Hairston? Does anything please you?

[Rockbird]

You know if we're going to trade away players and prospects, I'd rather it help us long term. I really don't hate this move. I'm just not at all excited by it. I think its just cosmetics and I'm disappointed we're apparently falling for it.

Sapper, from a fellow "negative poster" who's hated this offseason and Angelos, sit back and think of the positive for a second. What's done is done. I'd so much rather them gotten Delgado, traded for Hudson, etc. but there's nothing we can do about it, they blew it. Sosa is certainly a big deal and better then going in to the season with nothing. We gave up nothing substantial to get him (Seriously Crouthers and Fotenot were never going to see Baltimore and Hairston was effectively lame duck), AND with the Cubs picking up most of his salary we're really not burdered by him. If he's sucks, we say goodbye, it was an interesting one year experiement and move on. BUT if he regains his form and has a good season, it only makes us better, and if he likes the team and the city coming off his negative expiriences in Chicago he might be willing to work out a Palmeiro like 2 year deal to stick around. Is it cosmetic and appealing to the "common fan" to win the DC PR war? Absolutely! But at the same time it doesn't hurt us financially or baseball wise. He'd be a better hitter then Hairston or anyone else we could have plugged in and bringing in more attention and good will and PR to our team is always a good thing. Just relax, take a break from just the anti-Angelos and blown offseason thoughts (which I share) and just appreciate that we got a probably still productive Hall of Famer chasing 600 homeruns for next to nothing.

[brooks#5]

You know if we're going to trade away players and prospects, I'd rather it help us long term. I really don't hate this move. I'm just not at all excited by it. I think its just cosmetics and I'm disappointed we're apparently falling for it.

I think what you're seeing is a fan base that has had their expectations dropped to next to nothing, Sapper. Anything positive is welcome, and this move actually looks like a low risk one, kind of... "anything we get from Sosa will be icing on the cake". In my opinion, the euphoria you're feeling is not "B&F are the greatest" or "Sammy makes us better than the Yankees" but more "finally, we've done something smart, and this will add value"...

[electricRon14]

I actually like this deal a lot.

But does anyone else have the feeling that Murphy's Law will dictate that we'll regret trading Jerry Hairston?

It's just based on a gut feeling more than anything else, but outside of the Hairston/Roberts situation, I feel like Jerry could be something special on the North Side...

All that said, I say welcome Sammy! Let's give him a chance as an Oriole. He's had his troubles, but he's also had some great success; I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt, at the very least.

[Sapper]

Hairstons value is/was low due to past injuries. Sosa could turn out to be good for 2-3 years, but if not, we lost absolutely nothing. No long term contract and no loss of great talent in the system (allegedly, I know this could change). What more would you want? Where would you move Hairston? Does anything please you?

Hey, maybe I'm wrong. I'd hate to see Hairston have great seasons in the future if Sosa never plays on a contending O's team. I don't think it'll turn out Glenn Davis bad but it could.

[ledzepp8]

You know if we're going to trade away players and prospects, I'd rather it help us long term. I really don't hate this move. I'm just not at all excited by it. I think its just cosmetics and I'm disappointed we're apparently falling for it.
But who else do you think we could have gotten for them? Everyone in MLB knew we had to trade Hairston. With apparently very little leverage...I think B&F made as good of a trade for him as they could have. I can understand people not liking getting Sosa...but there is really absolutely no downside to this move. At least as we know it right now.

[bluedog]

Here's my complaint in a nutshell and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong:

We reportedly trade Hairston and two prospects for Sosa and likely increase our payroll. Sosa doesn't make us a contender and is old and declining and could very well be a one-year rental. With the limited resources this team has in dollars and tradable players/prospects, could we have done much better in trading Hairston and two prospects? I think so. We waited two seasons to trade Hairston for a declining roid-less Sosa?

That's what I don't like about this......

Tell me I'm wrong.

You're wrong.

If Sosa produces at even last years level for a full season with the O's, then you have to make this deal from a baseball perspective. Remember, Sosa basically fills a spot in the batting order that often featured such studs as Luis Matos, Karim Garcia and Luis Lopez. As well as Hairston played at times, you don't even hesitate to replace a speedy singles hitter with a 40 HR guy in the lineup. And best of all, this is a guy with an 1.000 OPS versus left hand pitchers -- which was the biggest weakness for the O's last season.

Its an absolute no brainer from a money perspective. Sosa will sell more tickets than any player the O's could have realistically brought in this off-season. Delgado is not a household name. Hudson isn't. Pavano isn't. Sosa is a huge draw and every man woman and child in the nation knows who he is and wants to see him hit home runs.

ESPN will cover the O's every night just to say what Sosa is doing. If the O's start winning and Sosa has a resurgence, people will go nutz for Sosa jerseys. When he gets to 600 dingers it will be a media circus. Every park he plays in, attendance will rise as people in the AL go to see him. The O's now have some star power that puts them in the same league as Boston and New York.

No one cared last year when the O's went to Beantown or the Big Apple to play. All the hype was Red Sox / Yankess blah blah blah. That will change next year. The O's will get a little more face time. Sammy and Miguel versus ARod and Jeter or Ortiz and Manny. This moves the O's out of the have nots in the AL East onto more even footing with the big boys. They aren't in the same league yet, but this gets them much much closer. And with increased media exposure, other players will be more interested in following Sosa to Charm City.

And here's the kicker - all that happens if Sosa just plays the same way he did last year. .260 & 35 dingers (which if he's healthy projects to 40+ in OPACY over a full season).

If on the other hand he rediscovers his excitement for the game (and I bet Tejada will help make that happen) and you add in the benefit of him hitting in a hitters park, in a hitters league against generally inferior pitching in a lineup where he will be better protected and have more guys on base in front of him than he ever had with the Cubs, then I think we'll see 50 taters and 120 rbis out of the guy.

Okay so you say this doesn't make the O's a contender. Does it make them better? Does having Sosa in your lineup instead of Luis Matos or Karim Garcia improve the team? You've gotta give the O's 5 or 6 games for that. Since the team hasn't lost anyone important, and the addition of a healthy Gibbons, a better bullpen and a full year of Ray Millar should all be pluses, its pretty easy to make the argument the O's are an 85 win team now. 85 win teams are just the kinds of teams that hang around in the wild card race until the trade deadline. So what happens if we're 3 or 4 games out of the wild card and we pull a trade for AJ Burnett? Look at what the Astros did once they grabbed Beltran last season. Sammy could easily be the difference between the O's being to far out to consider a big trade and being right in the race at a time when their depth of pitching prospects becomes the biggest draw for teams who have given up on the 05 season.

So be all gloom and doom if you want. This was a fantastic trade for the O's any way you slice it.

[Sapper]

But who else do you think we could have gotten for them? Everyone in MLB knew we had to trade Hairston. With apparently very little leverage...I think B&F made as good of a trade for him as they could have. I can understand people not liking getting Sosa...but there is really absolutely no downside to this move. At least as we know it right now.
OK, OK. I surrender. I'm just still stunned that we did this. I would like to find out that we also sing Maggs and trade for an ace. THAT at least would indicate a strategy to try to compete in the near term. This just seems to have no logic seeing as we're 23 games out of first place last season. It's not dumb, it's just not coherent.

[Gibby]

Hey, maybe I'm wrong. I'd hate to see Hairston have great seasons in the future if Sosa never plays on a contending O's team. I don't think it'll turn out Glenn Davis bad but it could.

There are risks in every trade, but if our biggest one is the fear of Jerry becoming a consistant all-star, I'll make that trade everyday.

I have the strangest feeling you would have criticized the O's for not moving Hairston. Who would you have moved him for?

[ledzepp8]

OK, OK. I surrender. I'm just still stunned that we did this. I would like to find out that we also sing Maggs and trade for an ace. THAT at least would indicate a strategy to try to compete in the near term. This just seems to have no logic seeing as we're 23 games out of first place last season. It's not dumb, it's just not coherent.
I understand what you're saying. But whether or not you think it was smoke and mirrors...they were in on Pavano, Sexson, Delgado and Hudson. Those deals may not have worked out...but they did try. So I don't see this trade as being a cosmetic quick fix like you do. Especially since these rumors have been going on for some time...evidently it was always on the backburner...just in case I suppose.

[bluedog]

Any of you Stat guys able to predict the imact that plugging in Sosa at .260 / 40 HRs / 100 RBIs in place last years cast of thousands in RF will have on our win totals?

[Sports Guy]

Ok...Here is my take(cause i know you have all been waiting for it..lol)

I do think this is a panic move and it was something that came to fruition because they failed to do other things.

I really did not want Sosa because of the salary for this year and next year.

HOWEVER.....IF all we give up are these 3 guys AND he waives his no trade clause AND they eat alot of his salary, this is not that bad of a deal.

The question is....Who are the other 2 propsects that they may give up??

Tim K is sayign this is not a done deal yet....So, lets see what the final deal before really judging it.

But, if they stay with what it is....I agree with Tony 100%

[Gibby]

I do think this is a panic move and it was something that came to fruition because they failed to do other things.


Panic move, or pre-planned alternative exercised when the bidding for Delgado rose too high? We'll never truly know.

[Border Bird]

I don't think this was a panic move at all. I think it was probably Plan B (C ... D ... whatever) and B&F pulled the string when they lost out on Delgado for the price they were willing to pay and then saw the offers for Maggs go unrealistically high for a player who may well be damaged goods and whose agent doesn't want any team to know his true condition. This was low risk. Signing Maggs would be huge risk.

And, yes, it is partly a smart business move. Nothing wrong with that. Sammy will more than pay for himself, which means more money to spend in the future. And Miggy, Raffy & Co. will keep that ego in check -- if being run out of Wrigley hasn't done that already.

I would like to see Julio offered for a middle-of the rotation SP. Perhaps that is next.

[MurphDogg]

Just thought of another reason I am happy about this move, no longer will we have to worry about fellow hangouters misspelling Hairston's name... not a great reason, but everytime I see "Hariston" sparks shoot out of my eyes...

[nevadaO]

Just thought of another reason I am happy about this move, no longer will we have to worry about fellow hangouters misspelling Hairston's name... not a great reason, but everytime I see "Hariston" sparks shoot out of my eyes...

LOL!

I do like the trade. I think getting Sosa away from Dusty Baker will help significantly. I would not be surprised to see Sosa approach .300/40/120 next season. Welcome to Charm city, Sosa! :D

[hoosiers]

It does clear up our 2B situation.
It improves the ML squad.
It provides some huge upside if Sammy can hit 35+ HRs.

Not thrilled with the deal, but let's see how it plays out.

[SilentJames]

That's the only thing a move like this would be about. And I for one am tired of half-measures and reactive moves just to sell seats for one season. How does this deal make us better long-term?

Shame on you, Tony, for falling for this typical Angelos fluff smoke and mirrors. :(
Christ Sapper, seriuosly, in an off year Sammy was a high output player. He may have wore out his welcome in Chicago--as Clemens wore out his in Boston, and we all know how THAT ended.

This is a good move

[Rockford]

I don't like this deal simply because I wanted Sammy Sosa nowhere near the Orioles.

Doesn't everyone by now know all of Sammy Sosa's flaws? Poor fielder. Doesn't hit cut-off men (that is, when he bothers to throw to them). Makes too many mistakes on the basepaths. Is back to flailing away at pitches down and away as he did early in his career. Looked lost at the plate much of the second half of last season. Last year a scout said if you rated players based on fundamentals, Sosa would be the least fundamentally sound player in the majors. Anyone who follows Chicago sports knows he was considered selfish and a cancer in the clubhouse. You can tell how badly the Cubs wanted to dump him by how much they are paying someone to take him off their hands. Besides all of that, he's 36 years old, for Pete's sake, and going downhill at breakneck speed.

Clearly this was a panic-button move after losing out on Carlos Delgado. How can anyone present this otherwise? Sammy Sosa will not make the Orioles a wild card contender.

Many on this board seem to be looking at it from the angle of what the Orioles gave up. Even though Crouthers may be down the line of pitching prospects and second base is deep in the organization, those 3 players were still chips the Orioles could have used in any other trade that would have been better.

To me, this move reminds me of the Devil Rays back in the 1990s when they added guys like Canseco, McGriff and Greg Vaughn, among others. That spring the national publications did all kinds of stories about all the mashers in Tampa's lineup. They were all over-the-hill busts.

The thing I do hold out hope on is that Sosa may actually fit pretty well in this clubhouse, considering they have several Hispanic ballplayers, including their best two.

The Orioles organization for so many years has been so frustrating for being reactive and thus being cornered into making moves like this. Why this team couldn't have been proactive and landed the biggest offseason bargain of all, 25-year-old Adrian Beltre, defies logic.

[cjblackbird]

Apparently it seems the only way Sapper will be satisfied with Angelos is if he puts Jesus Christ in right field. Come on man, the organization had to do something, and are you telling me getting Sammy for 7 million while only giving up injury prone Hairston and two unproven prospects isn't worth it? Sure he may be on a decline, but if a decline includes 35 homeruns last year, i think its worth a risk. Plus now Matos has assurance of his starting job which is always good for the mental side of the game, and you what you wanted this whole season, a reason to put Gibbons at first and Raffy in the DH slot. Angelos and company were not ready for this market, but overall I will say they did an alright job on an off year. They pushed the limit with Pavano and Delgado, unfortunetly it wasnt enough, but i would rather they lose out then over pay. Now your getting someone and your not overpaying, no harm in that.

[Brando]

This has been a lot of fun tonight. Let me leave you all with one final thought.
With the Cubs luck Sosa will bat .350 and break the homerun record this year.

[Adam]

I'm probably going to go against a lot of my own staff on this one but I like the Sosa deal as long as we didn't give up Julio in the deal. The details are still coming out and I reserve final judgement until all the facts are known, but if we acquired Sosa for Hairston, Fontenot and Crouthers, and the Cubs are paying the majority of his contract and Sosa has waived his automatic huge option contract for the next year, then I'm not sure why we shouldn't be excited about this.

Yes, I know things have soured for him in Chicago, and yes I know he had some back problems last year, and yes I know he's 36, but we're talking about a guy who is still a power bat, even in a off year.

In the last three years he's posted .274/.366/.556/.922 OPS numbers and against lefties, it's .319/.456/.585/1.041.

B&F actually traded from our strength in trading Hairston, Fontenot and Crouthers, all of which were depth. Roberts has second base nailed down and Nate Spears is the latest among second base prospects moving up the system that made Fontenot expendable. Crouthers was behind Maine, Penn, and Ray among right-handers so although he has a good arm, he was expendable.

Plus, a change of scenery might be exactly what Sammy needs. He'll get to play alongside Tejada and Mora, and won't have to shoulder the entire team's load. Remember, just a few years ago everyone loved Sammy. They loved his love of the game and how hard he played. They remember when he ran out on the field with a US flag after September 11th and we all remember how gracious he was during his home run chase with McGwire.

All things considered, I think this is win-win situation. After losing out on Delagado, we were looking at one of the weakest outfields in baseball. Well, that just changed and it cost us spare parts.

Yes, he may be a bust, but what did we really lose by trying. A lot of people said B&F had to take a chance. Well, they took a chance and I for one think it's a chance well worth taking for the price it cost.

Well said, Tony. I'm not the biggest Sosa fan in the world, but he's the power corner outfielder we've needed, and he didn't cost us anything of real signifigance. And FINALLY, the end of "Roberts vs. Hairston". It's finally really Brian's job, so he won't have to look over his shoulder anymore... unless he's scared of Chris Gomez. ;)

[SilentJames]

Sammy may be on the downside, but I think most of his problems came from him being fed up with "carrying" the Cubs. seriously, 2 years ago he was the golden boy of baseball. He has a good relationship with Tejada and I am sure he will fit in here.

there won't be a TON of pressure on him to carry the load on his shoulders, not to mention he will get rest as DH regularly which will most likely lead to his output increasing

this is a promising move.

ESPN likes it.

[Finisher]

Doesn't everyone by now know all of Sammy Sosa's flaws? Poor fielder. Doesn't hit cut-off men (that is, when he bothers to throw to them). Makes too many mistakes on the basepaths. Is back to flailing away at pitches down and away as he did early in his career. Looked lost at the plate much of the second half of last season. Last year a scout said if you rated players based on fundamentals, Sosa would be the least fundamentally sound player in the majors. Anyone who follows Chicago sports knows he was considered selfish and a cancer in the clubhouse. You can tell how badly the Cubs wanted to dump him by how much they are paying someone to take him off their hands. Besides all of that, he's 36 years old, for Pete's sake, and going downhill at breakneck speed.
Excellent post.

It seems people either love or loathe the Sosa trade.

To me, it boils down to money. If he's getting less than 10 million this season, it's not horrendous.

Are we going to extend Sosa? Are we going to be paying him 12-13 million at ages 37, 38 and 39?

[mweb]

Count me in as one of the people who didn't want Sosa who is actually happy with this trade. I'm happy because although I like Jerry, we didn't give up anyone of importantance since Jerry wouldn't start for us anyway, and the other 2 prospects aren't much to speak of. Spare parts. And just as important, his salary won't be that high for this year and we don't have to pick up that awful option for 2006.

Plus Sammy's first choice was supposedly Baltimore because he's great friends with Miggy and loves OPACY, so he should be much more happy which could help his performance. He also should be very motivated to prove all his doubters wrong, so that can only help. So I think he's more likely to bounce back or at least play as well as last year opposed to continue to decline.

Concerning Sapper's argument that we should of used these prospects for some young talent, well I agree that we should be looking to trade for younger talent, however I don't think this package could of got us anything of significance. The only reason they can get Sammy is because the Cubs are desperate to trade him and no other team has come to the table with much of anything for him.

Finally, normally I wouldn't make much of an argument for a move that will help at the box office and the general popularity of the team, however, I will on this occasion. The reason being this is the Nats first season and a move like this will really soften the blow of lost fans and lost revenue. We're basically in a war with the Nats for the fans in the DC area and Virginia. We were losing due to some marginal moves made by the Nats, but this move should put us back in the lead. Keeping as many fans as possible is very important to the future of this franchise and this will help that.

[alevene]

I like the trade, though i guess how much I like it depends on how much salary the Cubs pick up. It's only a one-year commitment and I don't think the O's gave up much at all. Looking at their numbers I don't really think Fontenot or Crouthers will be impact major leaguers. This is not really going to help the team long-term obviously but it will this year and I don't see how it will hurt us much down the road.

[mweb]

ESPN.com is saying that the Cubs are picking up about 10 million for this year. If true that's quite nice.

[elextrano8]

I'm a bit confused on the whole contract issue. As it stands now, does it look like Sosa waives his 2006 option and we have him for one year or is the waiving of the 2006 option contingent on a renegotiated extension?

[elextrano8]

Concerning Sapper's argument that we should of used these prospects for some young talent, well I agree that we should be looking to trade for younger talent, however I don't think this package could of got us anything of significance.

Exactly. I think this is probably the most we could have gotten for Hairston/Fontenot/Crouthers, and looking at it that way I think this was definitely a good deal. And honestly, I dislike Sosa a great deal.

How's his fielding?

[mweb]

I'm a bit confused on the whole contract issue. As it stands now, does it look like Sosa waives his 2006 option and we have him for one year or is the waiving of the 2006 option contingent on a renegotiated extension?

Sosa is waiving 2006, but will still have to be payed the 4.5 million buyout, but the Cubs are apparently giving us 10 million. I would guess we would try to extend him, but it doesn't seem like that's required for the trade to go through.

[mweb]

And I can't wait to see Bosewell say how terrible of a move this is even though he would of been loving it if the Nats pulled it off. :D

[olehippi]

I said it 2 months ago and I'll say this again. Trading Hairston (a back up player on the O's squad) and any number of 2nd tier minor league prospects for a certain 1st ballot hall of famer who will definitely get his 600th homer in an O's uniform and has a shot at 700 is an absolutely fantastic business move by the O's. Anyone who thinks this is a panic reaction by the front office is silly.

B&F probably just increased attendance by 150 - 200 k for the season. Sosa is easily worth 2000 tickets a game even if he's just a "pedestrian" .260 hitter with 35 home runs. On the other hand if he gets healed up from the injuries that slowed him last year and plays a full season, he could hit 50 (or dare I say, 60!) taters for the Birds. If THAT happens then attendance will jump dramatically.

This is another example of the O's being very very deliberate and forcing people to either go their way or the highway. There is no way the Cubs wanted to trade Sammy for a guy named Hairston and some AA players and STILL have to eat a significant chunk of his salary. The deliberate strategy didn't work with Delgado, Pavano and the A's -- but it got them what may eventually be considered one of the most lopsided trades in baseball history (in their favor no less) since the Glenn Davis trade.

Sure there is a chance that Sosa will continue to wear down and quietly fade into retirement. But there would seem to be a much bigger chance that Tejads helps him regain his excitement for the game and Sosa enjoys a resurgance in Charm City.

Whatever else you say, we've just replaced a spot in our batting order that was filled with Luis Matos, Karim Garcia or Luis Lopez as often as not with a guy that's got 40+ HR power and true star power.

And consider this: Sosa has never played in a lineup with guys like Roberts and Mora setting the table for him and Tejada and Javy protecting him. If Roberts continues to progress and ups his OBP a bit, Sosa will have a lot of ducks on the pond ahead of him this season and a lot of fastballs to swing at.

Now what the O's need to do is really aggressively go after Ordonez. Mags hitting 3rd, Tejada 4th and Sosa 5th would truly be a sight to see. Sure the Cubbies will probably get him, but Mags might just wanna land in Baltimore with all the other latin super stars.

Great move B&F. Great business move. Great PR move and very likely a Great baseball move as well.
"Sosa is easily worth 2000 tickets a game even if he's just a "pedestrian" .260 hitter with 35 home runs. On the other hand if he gets healed up from the injuries that slowed him last year and plays a full season, he could hit 50 (or dare I say, 60!) taters for the Birds. If THAT happens then attendance will jump dramatically

Isn't this just about what we expected to get out o Sexton or Delgado if we had gotten them? If so, I don't understand what the problem is with Sosa

[Finisher]

Latest from Rotoworld:

"A source told ESPN.com that the Cubs will be responsible for about $10 million of the $17 million Sammy Sosa is due this year.

It's unclear how the rest of the finances will be worked out. Being traded is supposed to guarantee Sosa's 2006 salary at $18 million and add a $19 million option for 2007 with a $4.5 million buyout. The MLBPA previously told Sosa's agent, Adam Katz, that voiding the 2006 salary and 2007 option would not be a problem if Sosa is traded, but there's still the $4.5 million buyout of his 2006 option if that clause isn't activated. Even though he's believed to be eager to leave Chicago, Sammy might want something to waive his no-trade clause."

[olehippi]

You're wrong.

If Sosa produces at even last years level for a full season with the O's, then you have to make this deal from a baseball perspective. Remember, Sosa basically fills a spot in the batting order that often featured such studs as Luis Matos, Karim Garcia and Luis Lopez. As well as Hairston played at times, you don't even hesitate to replace a speedy singles hitter with a 40 HR guy in the lineup. And best of all, this is a guy with an 1.000 OPS versus left hand pitchers -- which was the biggest weakness for the O's last season.

Its an absolute no brainer from a money perspective. Sosa will sell more tickets than any player the O's could have realistically brought in this off-season. Delgado is not a household name. Hudson isn't. Pavano isn't. Sosa is a huge draw and every man woman and child in the nation knows who he is and wants to see him hit home runs.

ESPN will cover the O's every night just to say what Sosa is doing. If the O's start winning and Sosa has a resurgence, people will go nutz for Sosa jerseys. When he gets to 600 dingers it will be a media circus. Every park he plays in, attendance will rise as people in the AL go to see him. The O's now have some star power that puts them in the same league as Boston and New York.

No one cared last year when the O's went to Beantown or the Big Apple to play. All the hype was Red Sox / Yankess blah blah blah. That will change next year. The O's will get a little more face time. Sammy and Miguel versus ARod and Jeter or Ortiz and Manny. This moves the O's out of the have nots in the AL East onto more even footing with the big boys. They aren't in the same league yet, but this gets them much much closer. And with increased media exposure, other players will be more interested in following Sosa to Charm City.

And here's the kicker - all that happens if Sosa just plays the same way he did last year. .260 & 35 dingers (which if he's healthy projects to 40+ in OPACY over a full season).

If on the other hand he rediscovers his excitement for the game (and I bet Tejada will help make that happen) and you add in the benefit of him hitting in a hitters park, in a hitters league against generally inferior pitching in a lineup where he will be better protected and have more guys on base in front of him than he ever had with the Cubs, then I think we'll see 50 taters and 120 rbis out of the guy.

Okay so you say this doesn't make the O's a contender. Does it make them better? Does having Sosa in your lineup instead of Luis Matos or Karim Garcia improve the team? You've gotta give the O's 5 or 6 games for that. Since the team hasn't lost anyone important, and the addition of a healthy Gibbons, a better bullpen and a full year of Ray Millar should all be pluses, its pretty easy to make the argument the O's are an 85 win team now. 85 win teams are just the kinds of teams that hang around in the wild card race until the trade deadline. So what happens if we're 3 or 4 games out of the wild card and we pull a trade for AJ Burnett? Look at what the Astros did once they grabbed Beltran last season. Sammy could easily be the difference between the O's being to far out to consider a big trade and being right in the race at a time when their depth of pitching prospects becomes the biggest draw for teams who have given up on the 05 season.

So be all gloom and doom if you want. This was a fantastic trade for the O's any way you slice it.
Great post !!! You should be doing PR for the Orioles.

It is a winning move for the Orioles anyway you look at it.

[bluedog]

Great post !!! You should be doing PR for the Orioles.

It is a winning move for the Orioles anyway you look at it.

Hehe - I'll take that job :P

[bluedog]

"Sosa is easily worth 2000 tickets a game even if he's just a "pedestrian" .260 hitter with 35 home runs. On the other hand if he gets healed up from the injuries that slowed him last year and plays a full season, he could hit 50 (or dare I say, 60!) taters for the Birds. If THAT happens then attendance will jump dramatically

Isn't this just about what we expected to get out o Sexton or Delgado if we had gotten them? If so, I don't understand what the problem is with Sosa

The point you make is a good one. Sosa's numbers from last year projected over a full season compare very favorably to Delgado's or Sexson's. If he plays as well as they do this year, why do we care if the hitter is named Sosa and not Delgado?

I think a lot of it is the fact that Sosa has such a stigma associated with him as being an egotistical head case. So people downplay the fact that he's probably going to produce nearly identical numbers to those other guys because they want to dislike him and being logical about his stats gets in the way of that.

[Ruzious]

Latest from Rotoworld:

"A source told ESPN.com that the Cubs will be responsible for about $10 million of the $17 million Sammy Sosa is due this year.

It's unclear how the rest of the finances will be worked out. Being traded is supposed to guarantee Sosa's 2006 salary at $18 million and add a $19 million option for 2007 with a $4.5 million buyout. The MLBPA previously told Sosa's agent, Adam Katz, that voiding the 2006 salary and 2007 option would not be a problem if Sosa is traded, but there's still the $4.5 million buyout of his 2006 option if that clause isn't activated. Even though he's believed to be eager to leave Chicago, Sammy might want something to waive his no-trade clause."
I'm taking from this that Sosa costs the O's $11.5 mil plus whatever it costs to waive his no-trade clause.

[Pat Kelly]

A great move on all fronts and I believe in the end the FO was able to pull this off because the Cubs had decided they HAD TO move Sosa, not unlike when Hemond and company decided they had to move Eddie - remember that? -- see below --
------------------------
In June 1986, however, Murray's career changed drastically when a pulled hamstring placed him on the disabled list for the first time in his career. Unexpectedly, Murray found himself the very public target of critical remarks from Orioles owner Edward Bennet Williams about his conditioning and dedication to recovering from the injury. Ironically, his return coincided with a prolonged slump by the Orioles, which marked the start of a six-season slump during which the team had just one winning season. Almost overnight, Murray found himself held accountable for the club's sudden turn of fortune and was tagged as a souring influence in the clubhouse and a player who never hustled.

Considering himself betrayed by the community to which he had given so much, including millions of dollars to improve Baltimore's inner city, Murray worsened the situation by all but refusing to talk to the media. The decision was the beginning of a trend which would damage his public image for years to come. In Baltimore, he actually heard "boos" from the Memorial Stadium crowd, and openly asked to be traded. In December of 1988, after Baltimore had concluded an embarrassing 54-107 season, the Orioles granted him his wish, sending him to the Los Angeles Dodgers in exchange for pitchers Brian Holton, Ken Howell, and infielder Juan Bell.

Of his three seasons in L.A. the most notable was his 1990 campaign, where he batted a career high .330. Although his average was the highest in all of baseball, he failed to win the batting title because St. Louis' Willie McGee was traded to Oakland in August with his National League average frozen at .335. Although he was unable to keep up the torrid pace with the Athletics, McGee still had enough at-bats in the NL to win the batting crown. In 1992, Murray signed as a free agent with the New York Mets, where he had two solid years, including the sixth 100 RBI season of his career, but where his reputation and relationship to the media grew even worse.

In 1994, Murray returned to the American League, signing with Cleveland, where his veteran presence helped mold the talented but youthful Indians into a powerful team. On May 6th of that season, Murray played his first regular season game in Baltimore since October of 1988 -- although coincidentally, as a Met in 1992 Murray had played in the first exhibition game in Baltimore's new Camden Yards Stadium and actually driven in the first run in the stadium's history with a first-inning sacrifice fly. Greeted by a smattering of both "boos" and applause, Murray hit a fourth-inning homer which hit the rightfield foul pole, the same foul pole which had been transplanted to Camden Yards from Murray's old Memorial Stadium home.

The following year, the 39-year-old Murray, in one of the best lineups baseball had seen in years, batted .323 with 21 home runs, and collected his 3,000th hit on June 30th at Minnesota. Murray also appeared in his third World Series, which the Indians lost in six games to Atlanta. On July 21, 1996 Murray returned to Baltimore in a trade for pitcher Kent Mercker. He promptly slammed a home run in his first game back. On September 6th, Murray hammered his 500th career homer into Camden Yards' right field bleachers, exactly one year to the day Ripken had surpassed Gehrig's streak. Murray's return turned the season around for the underachieving Orioles, who went on a second half tear to grab the American League's wildcard spot and upset the Indians in the playoffs before bowing out to the eventual World Champion Yankees. In his last at bat as an Oriole, Murray homered to left field against Andy Pettitte in Game Five.

Murray's return had not only invigorated the Orioles, but had also finally rehabilitated his image. Many in the Orioles clubhouse credited Murray with teaching the Orioles how to win and pulling the disparate but talented elements of the team together. In addition, he had won back his place in Baltimore, restoring the mutual affection between himself and the fans. After a few last hurrahs playing for the Anaheim Angels and Los Angeles Dodgers in 1997, Murray announced his retirement before the 1998 season and rejoined the Orioles as a bench coach. On May 31st, the Orioles, who had already quietly retired Murray's number 33 following his trade to the Dodgers, held a formal ceremony to honor one of their greatest players, who was at long last back where he belonged. (AGL)

----------------------

This FO does its best work when there is little or no competition for their target and the hard line negotiating tactics payoff. Having said that this is B&F's first real risky move which can either payoff or backfire - see Nomar trade by Bosox, Beltran trade by Houston, Pedro move by Mets and they will be most judged by this one - if it works it will restore the Orioles reputation as "Baseball Royalty" and Baltimore as a great place to play. If it fails it will likely mean another FO change.

I believe this deal is a steal and has the best possible upside in terms of pr and attendance and agree with many of the posts here which have already said as much. This will certainly hold off any interest in DC baseball in 2005 - hey Washingtonians - who would you rather see - the Yankees vs the O's with Tejada and Sosa or the Pirates vs Vinny Castilla and C. Guzman? Please....Boswell, I remember when you used to be a great baseball writer not a vitriolic homer.

If the pitching improves and a starter can be added by midseason, the "S - O - SA's will be in the wildcard hunt!

[Alsigko]

Count me as one of the guys who likes the Sosa deal. They traded spare parts for someone they needed! When was the last time that happened?

For those of you old enough, do you remember the deal in 66 for Frank Robinson. Much of the same stuff that has been said about Sosa was said about Robinson!

Good deal! I will like seeing Slammin Sammy in RF!

[tennOsfan]

I am incredibly excited about this trade, assuming it's Hairston-Crouthers-Fontenot. There is no way anyone can say we're not stealing Sosa. If Sosa doesn't play worth a darn, it's not like we're out a whole lot.

I hate seeing Jerry leave, but we've known that was inevitable. I'm happy he'll get a chance to play at Wrigley. I don't consider Fontenot or Crouthers to be that great from all that I've seen, and we're in good shape with young players ahead of them.

So what in the world could anybody complain about? That Angelos is trying to sell tickets? Well, good. He needs to sell tickets. If fans boycott this team in 2005 (as many have said), how exactly does that help put a better Oriole product on the field in 2006? I'm all for the Orioles either maintaining their 2.7 million people a year or exceeding that this year, so maybe Angelos won't be so concerned about the DC team next winter.

I'm really excited about this. Just yesterday I posted that I was against a trade, but that was when names like Julio and Bigbie were involved. But this is a no-risk move, IMO, and I'm certain Sosa respects Tejada, so the clubhouse issue should be minimized.

And hey, if Sosa bashes 40 home runs and makes marginal fans have a reason to come to Camden Yards, then that's awesome. If some of you want to sit around and complain about, enjoy your misery. This trade may not be part of B&F's "plan," but it's a good, opportunistic move.

[Cokeman]

Ok...Here is my take(cause i know you have all been waiting for it..lol)

Actually, I've been waiting to see what Cindy has to say...she's not going to be too happy! :D

[Tank]

If the deal stands as is, I think it is a very good deal for us. Hairston didn't have a starting spot, Crouthers is a relief prospect, and Fontenot is blocked.

I fell asleep last night at 8 o'clock because I'm sick with some cold/flu. What a surprise when I woke up!

[jwfarrar]

OK. I hate Sosa. I think he's selfish and can be a prima donna in the clubhouse. I think that attitude could be harmful on this team. I also believe this is a panic move and think that anyone that doesn't see it that way is only seeing what they want to see. I believe that Delgado was their goal and Maggs was their fallback. Sosa is a sideshow to sell seats and that's about it.

Now, with that said, if a change in scenery is good for him and Miggy and Mora can get him focused on a team goal, well, that could be good. I would've rather seen us deal this talent for a solid player that would be with us a few years, but who knows? Maybe he likes it here, becomes a solid Oriole and the FO is willing to pay him for a couple of years that could be good.

So what am I saying?

No, really, what am I saying, somebody help me out, not sure how to feel about this. I'm still disappointed, but perhaps they have another move up their sleeve that might bring a solid #1 or #2 to the rotation and perhaps, if the Yankees implode, maybe, just maybe it's a good year. Sure hope so. But I still don't like Sosa.

[Optimum O]

As I am excited to see us get Sammy Sosa...heck anyone would be nice at this point....I have a personal connection to Mike Fontenot. My wife and I are a host family for the baysox and during Mike's 2003 season in which he hit .325 he stayed with us. He is such a quality individual and I was really hoping that by moving Hairston it would move him up a notch. I hope he gets a fair shot in Chicago and maybe even gets spun to another team in need of a 2B. Anyway, I hope it works out for all parties involved and I will definitely be in touch with Mike this weekend.

[The Big Dog]

There is no doubt this was a panic move by Lil Petey, but as long as Julio is not part of the deal it is a good deal for the O's.

[jiminnj]

This trade is a 15 million dollar gamble that may help the team for one year, but could also significantly hurt us in 2005 too. It also takes away from the long term building we have been doing. We lose 3 players of some value, more than anything, they are players we will no longer be able to use for other trades that could have helped us more. The upside is the possibility of a rebounding Sosa having a very good year and improving our long shot of making the playoffs.

Money as I see it now, Sosa gets 17 M 2005, 4.5 M buy out of the option year, plus money to waive no trade clause, estimated amount for waiving no trade clause 3.5M (IMO), total due Sosa 25M, Cubs pay 10M, we have to come up with 15M. Paying 15M for Sosa and not having this money for other things is part of the gamble.

What will Sosa produce next year? If you look at his steady decline, the predicted numbers are dreadful! If you look at the second half of last season where he was healthy and got 270 AB, other than HR everything else is dreadful. Those numbers. AB 270, avg-.233, OBP-.300, Slug-.478, OPS-.778, RBI-41, Hits-65, 2B-9, HR-19. The last 1/2 season Sammy Sosa was Tony Batista playing RF, a very easy out who was never on base who played terrible defense but who hit some HRs (i.e. a terrible baseball player). This scenario is what his steady decline would predict but multiply those numbers by 2 to make it a full season. I dread this trade if this is the Sammy Sosa we get. If we get the Sammy Sosa of the last half of last year, he will hurt this team and he will take wins away from us. Hairston next year will produce more than this prediction and will play much better defense. This is part of the downside of this gamble. If this is the Sosa we get, he will help attendence at the start of the year, but by the end of the year he will be hurting attendence because of overall disgust with the team of which Sosa will be the symbol of.

The other downside of the gamble is what we are giving up. I like Hairston and I strongly believed that he was going to surplant Matos as our CF with our current roster makeup. So in my mind, we are giving up our starting CF. He was however nearly surplus, because he was not that much better than other options. If Matos rebounds to 2003 or Majewski develops or we obtain an OF through trade, Jerry became more and more excess. Crouthers has a slim shot at becoming a SP at the ML level, more likely a useful BP guy IMO. He did not move forward in his development last year. Fontenot is blocked in the system, at a position we have tons of depth. Overall we are trading excess, but we are giving up a significant portion of our potential trading excess to obtain a 1 year gamble. Other moves, like trading for Huff or someone like him who would help us next year and long term become less likely with this trade.

Up sides to the trade are that Sammy will rebound from the steady decline and put up some numbers like the average numbers he has put up for the last 3 years, this would be something like BA-.275, OBP-.360, Slg-.550, OPS-.910 with 40-45 HR. If he does this he definitely helps us next year. Possibly he does even better than this, but with the steady decline that is probably very wishful thinking.

Since this trade is basically for a 1 year pick up, what does it do for our chances next year? Before the trade, in my opinion, we were a 85-87 win team (I am an optimist who believes we were unlucky last year should of had 81-82 wins, the BP is improved, and our young players who we have a bunch of (particularly pitchers) should be better, while we don't have that many old players who should be declining), and we had a very slim chance of competing for the WC if we had a lot of guys have stellar years, few injuries, and either the aging Yanks or the Red Sox tank. We were a long shot. Add Sosa and where are we? If we get the declining Sosa we are back to around a .500 team and maybe under and have no chance for the playoffs. If we get a rebounded Sosa, we probably are a 88-90 win team. To compete for the playoffs we still we need a lot of stellar years and tanking by one of the Yankees or the Red Sox, but the chances are better than they were before the trade.

So basically we are taking a gamble on a rebounded Sosa for this one year. He could improve our chances for the playoffs from a very long shot, to being just a long shot. If he continues his steady decline, he could set the long term development of this team back, and we are giving up money and players who could be used in other moves to improve the team.

I sure hope Sosa rebounds and does help give us a shot at the playoffs next year, but I also am dreading the vision of having a player who is basically Tony Batista playing RF for us next year too. Overall, I am hoping this trade falls through at the last moment, I don't like the gamble.

[NewMarketSean]

2B Roberts
3B Mora
SS Tejada
RF Sosa
C Lopez
DH Palmeiro
1B Gibbons
LF Bigbie
CF Matos

I like the deal too. And with a healthy Sosa batting #4, this line-up is going to be amazing.

[ofandan]

And that 35 HR Sammy only played in 126 games. The DH and close confines of Camden can only help increase this output (unless, of course, his age has something to say about that). I'm really liking this. Low risk, High reward. IMO this is a sweet deal if we can resign Sammy to a lower salary for 2 years since he will move into the DH just as Val is ready to take over the RF slot. I will also miss Jerry but you have to give up something to get something and we still have enough prospects to make another deal hopefully for Vasquez. :cool:

[jiminnj]

Even with the shorter LF-LC?

Wrigley: 355 L, 368 LC, 400 C, 368 RC, 353 R

Camden 333 L, 364 LC, 410 C, 400-373 RC, 318 R

Those who think that OPACY is an easier park to hit HR than Wriggley haven't looked at HR stats between to two parks and have never been at Wriggley on a day the wind is blowing out (a frequent occasion in the Windy City). I grew in the Chicago area understand how good of a HR park Wriggley is. Sosa will be hurt by the park change, not helped.

[Bigbie03]

I agree with you as well bluedog. While I'm not a big fan of Sosa's, I believe
B&F pulled off a great deal. I was opting for Maggs, but I can see how Miggy
and Mora might help bring back Sammy's fire for the game, and that in turn,
might bring back Sammy's bat. We won't be regretting this deal if Sosa stays
healthy.

[bmorechop]

2B Roberts
3B Mora
SS Tejada
RF Sosa
C Lopez
DH Palmeiro
1B Gibbons
LF Bigbie
CF Matos

I like the deal too. And with a healthy Sosa batting #4, this line-up is going to be amazing.

If the deal is for Hairston, Fontenot, Crouthers and the O's only pay 7 mill for Sammy, then I like it. Now use Julio to get Cameron and think Lefty-Righty a little more and you might have a lineup something like this:

2B Roberts
3B Mora
SS Tejada
RF Sosa
DH Palmeiro
C Lopez
1B Gibbons
CF Cameron
LF Bigbie

If Sammy can reproduce even last year's numbers, then for 7 million it's a good deal. 35 hrs and an .850 OPS with star power for David Segui/Sydney Ponson money is worth it in IMO. If they can't acquire first rate starting pitching, then beefing up the bullpen and clubbing the other team to death is a good strategy.

p.s. if Sosa results in an extra 100,000 tickets being sold, then he's paid for approximately half of the o's committment

[vatech1994]

It does clear up our 2B situation.
It improves the ML squad.
It provides some huge upside if Sammy can hit 35+ HRs.

Not thrilled with the deal, but let's see how it plays out.

Perfectly put. This is exactly the right reaction. No real down side if the deal goes down as advertised because we lost nobody integral this year or in the future. If Sammy rediscovers his passion and ability, there could be huge upside.

[mdbdotcom]

If this was a panic move, it was a panic move on the part of the Cubs. They needed to move Sosa so they could go after Ordonez, and with the Tigers establishing a market for Ordonez, the Cubs had to move quickly. So they paid a lot of money along with Sosa to get one very talented but very fragile player and a couple of hopefuls.

Worst case scenario: Glenn Davis deja vu. Hairston becomes an all star for the next 10 years, Crouthers develops into a great closer, Fontenot is traded for the next Babe Ruth, and Sammy sneezes in spring training, hurts his back, and doesn't appear in a game all year before signing a minor league deal with the Mets next year.

Best case scenario: O's deal for Cameron and Ben Sheets, Sammy has a productive year, we win 94 games and the wild card, and we wish Hairston, Crouthers, and Fontenot well.

Alternative best case scenario: O's trade Sosa to Houston for Oswalt. Won't happen, but Hairston, Fontenot, and Crouthers for Oswalt would be sweet.

[thomden]

You know if we're going to trade away players and prospects, I'd rather it help us long term. I really don't hate this move. I'm just not at all excited by it. I think its just cosmetics and I'm disappointed we're apparently falling for it.
If you don't REALLY hate this move, then pray tell, why do you keep whinning about it?

[BillySmith]

It also could help lure other free agents to the ballclub, which is a huge problem since we are in the same division with NY and Boston.

I think these are the types of deals B&F are forced to consider, given the division we play in. I commend them for picking up on the game's superstars for virtually nothing.

I think Sosa's determination to rebound and to show the world what he is capable of doing will fit perfectly in this lineup and this ballyard and will more than offset any potential decline due to age. Dog better stay healthy though. No breaking down for being off roids.

Come on, naysayers, for a year we have a legit cleanup hitter, Gibbons moves to his natural position, first, Raffy gets to rest up at DH, and we don't have to have a second baseman in CF. Let Matos cover that ground and hit whatever he is going to hit.

Next step: Mags, Vazquez, Huff. Oh wait, ST starts in two weeks!!!!! :eek:

[NewMarketSean]

With the DH, I think Sammy has maybe 5 years left in him. Over that span he could put up 25-40 HR's in this line-up. That's long-term to me. If the pitching is anything, we'll be competing over those 5 years for the playoffs and beyond.

[RayC]

I was originally against this deal. Strongly! After reading all the posts, I'm not as strongly against it. I agree somewhat with the many evaluations of this trade. The prospects we gave up are probably "replaceable" and Sosa is apparently coming more cheaply because of the cash from the Cubs. But I think I concur with some others who said that this trade doesn't fit into any long term plan to improve the club. It seems like a "stop gap" deal to resolve the 2B situation and get a "home run" hitter.

A deal to improve the club in the long term plant to improve the club would involve a trade for 1B-Ryan Howard (Phillies), or Zito (Oakland) / Vazquez (Arizona). Haven't heard anything like this from the FO.

[tennOsfan]

This trade is a 15 million dollar gamble that may help the team for one year, but could also significantly hurt us in 2005 too. It also takes away from the long term building we have been doing. We lose 3 players of some value, more than anything, they are players we will no longer be able to use for other trades that could have helped us more.

If we could've gotten Ben Sheets, Javier Vazquez or AJ Burnett for Hairston/Crouthers/Fontenot, I'd agree and say what in the world are the Orioles thinking?

But we NEVER could've gotten any quality young arm for that package. We've shopped Jerry around for a year, and never were we happy with what we could get for him. You see, while we love Jerry and believe he's a solid player, he's not much different from any number of perenially available free agents who could be had at budget prices. Crouthers and Fontenot could develop into similar players, but likely not much better.

If this is a gamble, it's one I'd take any day of the week. This team is still in the exact same position it was a week ago in its ability to land a quality arm in a trade. Trouble is, teams aren't wanting to give up quality young arms because that's the only good arms they can afford. Why just dump them to the Orioles? No one will do that without getting premium talent in return, and these three players don't constitute "premium" talent.

[BRobinsonfan]

Here's my complaint in a nutshell and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong:

We reportedly trade Hairston and two prospects for Sosa and likely increase our payroll. Sosa doesn't make us a contender and is old and declining and could very well be a one-year rental.
Tell me I'm wrong.

You could be wrong.

Who could we have traded Hairston and those two prospects for that would have made us a contender? Since you're apparently big on challenges... I challenge you to tell me who. :D

I don't think there's anybody that we could have traded Jerry and those prospects for that immediately makes us a contender. I'm dissapointed that some of the other deals didn't work out. But we traded from depth and we got someone who, at the very least, will increase attendence.

[orioles77]

With the DH, I think Sammy has maybe 5 years left in him. Over that span he could put up 25-40 HR's in this line-up. That's long-term to me. If the pitching is anything, we'll be competing over those 5 years for the playoffs and beyond.

Very good point I agree with you.

[DrungoHazewood]

It does clear up our 2B situation.
It improves the ML squad.
It provides some huge upside if Sammy can hit 35+ HRs.

Not thrilled with the deal, but let's see how it plays out.

I guess thats basically my opinion, too. The O's aren't giving up the farm - everyone involved in the deal is redundant in one way or another. They kept Julio for another deal. And apparently they get to avoid some of the more ridiculous money aspects Sosa's contract could have brought along.

I'm not convinced he'll be more than a .250-30 guy... basically Joe Carter. But he's right-handed and there's some chance he could rebound.

It's an OK deal.

[alevene]

I'm not convinced he'll be more than a .250-30 guy... basically Joe Carter.

I think this is a little unfair to Sosa. His big dropoff last year resulted in a .849 OPS, which coincedentally was Carter's career high, while Carter's career OPS was .770. Granted Carter's best years came before the current high-scoring era, but Sosa had a much better prime and thus far a much better decline phase than Carter, and I think that will continue.

[evenparthrough9]

I understand what you're saying. But whether or not you think it was smoke and mirrors...they were in on Pavano, Sexson, Delgado and Hudson. Those deals may not have worked out...but they did try. So I don't see this trade as being a cosmetic quick fix like you do. Especially since these rumors have been going on for some time...evidently it was always on the backburner...just in case I suppose.


Adding a 37 year old oft injured, cheating malcontent, with rapidly declining stats IS cosmetic! Let me remind you that he hit all of 4 HR against lefties last year. How does this make us a contender? That is the objective, right?
T minus 75 days until he injures his back sneezing again. Horrible move.

[tywright]

Sosa hits lefties well
In the last 3 seasons he hit .319 in 301ABs with 22 HR
Also before he got hurt last season he was having his typical season

[OrioleMagic]

You can call this a good deal or a bad deal, but the bottom line is that it was a smart deal and a safe deal. We lose Hairston, Crouthers and Fontenot, all extras for a future hall of famer, who needs a new stage to perform on. That's the smart part of the deal. The safe part is that next off-season, we are not strapped to a rediculous long-term contract if Sosa does turn out to continuously decline. I think PA was behind it, but I think B&F did it with the use of baseball sense. Next year, Angelos owes the fans, BIG TIME!!! (or as soon as he can conclude the deal with MLB and find an opportunity to obtain an Ace or two!!!)

[cindyluvsbrady]

Im still in shock. :eek: I fell like Im having a nightmare. :(

[jiminnj]

Lots of predictions of huge numbers of HRs that lift the Os into contention after the signing an aging, declining, superstar and future HOFer.

Been there, done that.

It didn't work with Palmeiro, I don't think it is going to work with Sosa either. I can understand the fans not learning, but B&F, I am in shock.

[AlBumbry]

I guess I'm on Tony's side with this, albeit hesitantly. If at the beginning of the offseason, you gave a list of 9 potential targets, no matter who they were, I would've ranked them ahead of Sosa. But, with the deal that we struck, out of strength, we get a decent player out of. Now if we can just turn off or limit his cheesy, public playing personality, I think we'll be fine.

[Mark Carver]

Adding a 37 year old oft injured...


He's 36 years old... there are reason why the deal shouldn't have gone down, but trying to make him older than he is, isn't one of them...

[evenparthrough9]

He's 36 years old... there are reason why the deal shouldn't have gone down, but trying to make him older than he is, isn't one of them...

Its called a math error. If he already celebrated his 2005 birthday he would be 37 since he hasnt he's 36. Why are you so angry and confrontational lately?

[Sapper]

If you don't REALLY hate this move, then pray tell, why do you keep whinning about it?
I think it's just one more indication that this team has no clear direction. Heck, I'm as excited as anyone to see if Sosa CAN really be the power hitter we've been needing. BUT, it doesn't even put us close to catching up with Boston and NY and we're just wasting trade-bait with this move. Will it seel some seats? Yeah, maybe. I'd be more excited to hear B&F come out tomorrow and, instead of announcing this trade, announce what their long-term strategy to field a contender is. I'd rather hear that they took the 7M they're paying Sosa and actually invest it in the farm system and scouting and signing our draft picks. That's what would make me happy. This is neutral at best. This is just more cosmetic, reactive management that got us to 7 straight losing seasons to begin with.

[Sapper]

It also could help lure other free agents to the ballclub, which is a huge problem since we are in the same division with NY and Boston.

I think these are the types of deals B&F are forced to consider, given the division we play in. I commend them for picking up on the game's superstars for virtually nothing.

I think Sosa's determination to rebound and to show the world what he is capable of doing will fit perfectly in this lineup and this ballyard and will more than offset any potential decline due to age. Dog better stay healthy though. No breaking down for being off roids.

Come on, naysayers, for a year we have a legit cleanup hitter, Gibbons moves to his natural position, first, Raffy gets to rest up at DH, and we don't have to have a second baseman in CF....

And after that year? Then what? Another reactive move that doesn't get us any closer to really being a contender? That's my guess.

[DrungoHazewood]

I'd be more excited to hear B&F come out tomorrow and, instead of announcing this trade, announce what their long-term strategy to field a contender is. I'd rather hear that they took the 7M they're paying Sosa and actually invest it in the farm system and scouting and signing our draft picks. That's what would make me happy. This is neutral at best. This is just more cosmetic, reactive management that got us to 7 straight losing seasons to begin with.

No you wouldn't. A news conference where B&F stated that they're not trading for Sosa because they want to invest the savings in the farm system would immediately be countered here with a bunch of posts about this just being the latest excuse for not doing anything to upgrade the team. You would jump in saying that we'd never know if Angelos spent a dime on the minors, and that most likely he'd just pocket the money while claiming to invest. I guarantee anyone who said they believed in this kind of scam (and that's what it would be called) would be guilty of kool aid drinking.

Say what you want about this trade, but you have to admit the O's took on salary - they took money out of Angelos' pocket and added it to payroll.

[Sapper]

No you wouldn't. A news conference where B&F stated that they're not trading for Sosa because they want to invest the savings in the farm system would immediately be countered here with a bunch of posts about this just being the latest excuse for not doing anything to upgrade the team. You would jump in saying that we'd never know if Angelos spent a dime on the minors, and that most likely he'd just pocket the money while claiming to invest. I guarantee anyone who said they believed in this kind of scam (and that's what it would be called) would be guilty of kool aid drinking.

Say what you want about this trade, but you have to admit the O's took on salary - they took money out of Angelos' pocket and added it to payroll.

Well, you probably got me there on both counts :o but it still doesn't mean this fits into any long-term strategy.

[bluedog]

This trade is a 15 million dollar gamble that may help the team for one year, but could also significantly hurt us in 2005 too. It also takes away from the long term building we have been doing. We lose 3 players of some value, more than anything, they are players we will no longer be able to use for other trades that could have helped us more. The upside is the possibility of a rebounding Sosa having a very good year and improving our long shot of making the playoffs.

Money as I see it now, Sosa gets 17 M 2005, 4.5 M buy out of the option year, plus money to waive no trade clause, estimated amount for waiving no trade clause 3.5M (IMO), total due Sosa 25M, Cubs pay 10M, we have to come up with 15M. Paying 15M for Sosa and not having this money for other things is part of the gamble.

What will Sosa produce next year? If you look at his steady decline, the predicted numbers are dreadful! If you look at the second half of last season where he was healthy and got 270 AB, other than HR everything else is dreadful. Those numbers. AB 270, avg-.233, OBP-.300, Slug-.478, OPS-.778, RBI-41, Hits-65, 2B-9, HR-19. The last 1/2 season Sammy Sosa was Tony Batista playing RF, a very easy out who was never on base who played terrible defense but who hit some HRs (i.e. a terrible baseball player). This scenario is what his steady decline would predict but multiply those numbers by 2 to make it a full season. I dread this trade if this is the Sammy Sosa we get. If we get the Sammy Sosa of the last half of last year, he will hurt this team and he will take wins away from us. Hairston next year will produce more than this prediction and will play much better defense. This is part of the downside of this gamble. If this is the Sosa we get, he will help attendence at the start of the year, but by the end of the year he will be hurting attendence because of overall disgust with the team of which Sosa will be the symbol of.

The other downside of the gamble is what we are giving up. I like Hairston and I strongly believed that he was going to surplant Matos as our CF with our current roster makeup. So in my mind, we are giving up our starting CF. He was however nearly surplus, because he was not that much better than other options. If Matos rebounds to 2003 or Majewski develops or we obtain an OF through trade, Jerry became more and more excess. Crouthers has a slim shot at becoming a SP at the ML level, more likely a useful BP guy IMO. He did not move forward in his development last year. Fontenot is blocked in the system, at a position we have tons of depth. Overall we are trading excess, but we are giving up a significant portion of our potential trading excess to obtain a 1 year gamble. Other moves, like trading for Huff or someone like him who would help us next year and long term become less likely with this trade.

Up sides to the trade are that Sammy will rebound from the steady decline and put up some numbers like the average numbers he has put up for the last 3 years, this would be something like BA-.275, OBP-.360, Slg-.550, OPS-.910 with 40-45 HR. If he does this he definitely helps us next year. Possibly he does even better than this, but with the steady decline that is probably very wishful thinking.

Since this trade is basically for a 1 year pick up, what does it do for our chances next year? Before the trade, in my opinion, we were a 85-87 win team (I am an optimist who believes we were unlucky last year should of had 81-82 wins, the BP is improved, and our young players who we have a bunch of (particularly pitchers) should be better, while we don't have that many old players who should be declining), and we had a very slim chance of competing for the WC if we had a lot of guys have stellar years, few injuries, and either the aging Yanks or the Red Sox tank. We were a long shot. Add Sosa and where are we? If we get the declining Sosa we are back to around a .500 team and maybe under and have no chance for the playoffs. If we get a rebounded Sosa, we probably are a 88-90 win team. To compete for the playoffs we still we need a lot of stellar years and tanking by one of the Yankees or the Red Sox, but the chances are better than they were before the trade.

So basically we are taking a gamble on a rebounded Sosa for this one year. He could improve our chances for the playoffs from a very long shot, to being just a long shot. If he continues his steady decline, he could set the long term development of this team back, and we are giving up money and players who could be used in other moves to improve the team.

I sure hope Sosa rebounds and does help give us a shot at the playoffs next year, but I also am dreading the vision of having a player who is basically Tony Batista playing RF for us next year too. Overall, I am hoping this trade falls through at the last moment, I don't like the gamble.

You totally miss the star power Sosa brings to the table. The 15M we spend on him will be easily recouped by the club in attendance gains. This was a clear money MAKING move not a losing one. If you don't think Sosa in an O's uniform will translate into an additional 150,000+ or so ticket sales per year, then you don't get it (over two years that's 300k x $50 average spend per sale = 15 mill). Sosa will easily put another 2000 fans per night in OPACY and that's all the O's need to hit those numbers.

Angelos is investing in Sosa and he expects to make every penny of that 15 Mil back with interest. If anything, the Sosa move will actually allow the O's to spend more money on other FA acquisitions and have a better chance at landing free agents because Sosa will 1) Make money for the team through added ticket, merchandise and advertising sales and 2) Get the O's premium face time with the Media, which even Tejada couldn't do last year.

All that happens if he's just average. The upside if he reverts to 50 HR form and helps the O's battle for a wild card is significantly bigger. And none of this counts the value that Sosa will have in sealing the cable deal Angelos is working on, or the value Sosa will have as a PR / Advertising token once the Cable channel is live.

Lastly and maybe most importantly, Sosa will be interesting enough to draw fans from Washington who might have otherwise stayed home. Sosa will be directly responsible for drawing casual fans and corporate season ticket sales from the Washington area that might otherwise have gone to the Nats. The O's now have a Superstar and a lot of just regular old star players while the Nats have AA players masquerading as big leaguers. Don't underestimate the role this played in Angelos' decision to pull the trigger on this move.

[birdman5]

Sammy Sosa is all about Sammy Sosa. You can tell by the way he acts. He is not a team guy. Problem in the clubhouse. 36 years old. Wish we never got him. Would rather have a team player like Conine.

[NewMarketSean]

Sammy Sosa is all about Sammy Sosa. You can tell by the way he acts. He is not a team guy. Problem in the clubhouse. 36 years old. Wish we never got him. Would rather have a team player like Conine.

Yeah, it's all about Sosa. But give him a chance. New team, new league (well, almost) and new situation. Remember when Albert Belle signed with the Orioles and at first he was a new kinder, gentler Albert Belle... well at least until he broke a few TV's and cussed out a few reporters? If Belle can take the steps to change (which ultimately failed), then so can Sosa. Plus he's playing with Tejada who is just contagious when it comes to playing hard and teamwork. I think it'll work out.

The fans just need to embrace Sosa. If he gets booed on opening day or fans continue to scoff at getting him, this could turn ugly, but until Sosa does something stupid or plays like crap, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. He's a hall of famer with some fuel still in the tank. This could work out for the better. A lot better.

And come on guys, we practically got him for nothing!

[bluedog]

I was originally against this deal. Strongly! After reading all the posts, I'm not as strongly against it. I agree somewhat with the many evaluations of this trade. The prospects we gave up are probably "replaceable" and Sosa is apparently coming more cheaply because of the cash from the Cubs. But I think I concur with some others who said that this trade doesn't fit into any long term plan to improve the club. It seems like a "stop gap" deal to resolve the 2B situation and get a "home run" hitter.

A deal to improve the club in the long term plant to improve the club would involve a trade for 1B-Ryan Howard (Phillies), or Zito (Oakland) / Vazquez (Arizona). Haven't heard anything like this from the FO.

It is almost always harder and more expensive (in terms of prospects) to pull off a trade in the pre-season than it is to pull of the same trade after the All-star break assuming the team you are trading with is not in contention at that point.

I think the O's are going to try to get more value for their young arms by waiting until teams that are potential trade partners are out of the post-season race. All three of the teams you mention look pretty weak on paper. Throw in Milwaukee (Sheets), Tampa Bay (Huff) and Florida (Burnett) to that list and come the trade deadline there might be some very attractive players available. Where the Red Sox and Yanks won't have the prospects to pull of those deals, the O's will have enough ammunition to maybe grab a couple of big names.

Do you really want to trade a package including Bedard and Maine or Penn or Ainsworth to get Zito now when we might be able to get him for just 1 top prospect later? I know I don't.

[bluedog]

Sammy Sosa is all about Sammy Sosa. You can tell by the way he acts. He is not a team guy. Problem in the clubhouse. 36 years old. Wish we never got him. Would rather have a team player like Conine.

You clearly never talked to a Cubs fan 3 - 4 years ago when Sammy was the most beloved player in ChiTown since a guy named Jordan.

Sammy is not the clubhouse cancer you make him out to be. Things got bad with the Cubbies because Sammy and Dusty Baker basically hate each other's guts. Sure you worry about the roids and corked bats, but if a town like Baltimore can embrace known felons like Ray Lewis, then I think Sammy prolly deserves a little love.

[tennOsfan]

if a town like Baltimore can embrace known felons like Ray Lewis, then I think Sammy prolly deserves a little love.

I'm laughing at that; but man, you're liable to get roasted for that one. :eek:

[birdman5]

Got the feeling last year that everybody on the team was pulling together. No individuals. Sammy is just going to be a distraction. As much as Tejada wanted him here , he is not a Tejada team oriented type of player. Would have rather had Cameron or Floyd even if it cost more.

[Sapper]

After reading everyone else's reaction over the last day, maybe I'm letting my negative view of the FO and ownership cloud my judgement. This is probably a no-risk move that pays for itself. It's not really what I wanted to see out of this offseason but it doesn't mean it isn't a good move.

I apologize for jumping down Tony's throat for signing onto this. It's probably OK. :o

[OhioOriole]

You're wrong.

If Sosa produces at even last years level for a full season with the O's, then you have to make this deal from a baseball perspective. Remember, Sosa basically fills a spot in the batting order that often featured such studs as Luis Matos, Karim Garcia and Luis Lopez. As well as Hairston played at times, you don't even hesitate to replace a speedy singles hitter with a 40 HR guy in the lineup. And best of all, this is a guy with an 1.000 OPS versus left hand pitchers -- which was the biggest weakness for the O's last season.

Its an absolute no brainer from a money perspective. Sosa will sell more tickets than any player the O's could have realistically brought in this off-season. Delgado is not a household name. Hudson isn't. Pavano isn't. Sosa is a huge draw and every man woman and child in the nation knows who he is and wants to see him hit home runs.

ESPN will cover the O's every night just to say what Sosa is doing. If the O's start winning and Sosa has a resurgence, people will go nutz for Sosa jerseys. When he gets to 600 dingers it will be a media circus. Every park he plays in, attendance will rise as people in the AL go to see him. The O's now have some star power that puts them in the same league as Boston and New York.

No one cared last year when the O's went to Beantown or the Big Apple to play. All the hype was Red Sox / Yankess blah blah blah. That will change next year. The O's will get a little more face time. Sammy and Miguel versus ARod and Jeter or Ortiz and Manny. This moves the O's out of the have nots in the AL East onto more even footing with the big boys. They aren't in the same league yet, but this gets them much much closer. And with increased media exposure, other players will be more interested in following Sosa to Charm City.

And here's the kicker - all that happens if Sosa just plays the same way he did last year. .260 & 35 dingers (which if he's healthy projects to 40+ in OPACY over a full season).

If on the other hand he rediscovers his excitement for the game (and I bet Tejada will help make that happen) and you add in the benefit of him hitting in a hitters park, in a hitters league against generally inferior pitching in a lineup where he will be better protected and have more guys on base in front of him than he ever had with the Cubs, then I think we'll see 50 taters and 120 rbis out of the guy.

Okay so you say this doesn't make the O's a contender. Does it make them better? Does having Sosa in your lineup instead of Luis Matos or Karim Garcia improve the team? You've gotta give the O's 5 or 6 games for that. Since the team hasn't lost anyone important, and the addition of a healthy Gibbons, a better bullpen and a full year of Ray Millar should all be pluses, its pretty easy to make the argument the O's are an 85 win team now. 85 win teams are just the kinds of teams that hang around in the wild card race until the trade deadline. So what happens if we're 3 or 4 games out of the wild card and we pull a trade for AJ Burnett? Look at what the Astros did once they grabbed Beltran last season. Sammy could easily be the difference between the O's being to far out to consider a big trade and being right in the race at a time when their depth of pitching prospects becomes the biggest draw for teams who have given up on the 05 season.

So be all gloom and doom if you want. This was a fantastic trade for the O's any way you slice it.


That was an awesome post. I agree wholeheartedly. I think the young pitching will get better and Sosa bridges the gap until Markakis and Majewski are ready. Now if we could add a healthy Magglio.......

[PDog]

Here's another article about the O's and the trade:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6883352/

[tennOsfan]

Here's another article about the O's and the trade:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6883352/

Please, no one read that story. It is written by a knucklehead who claims the Orioles have "no pitching." The knucklehead's name is Mike Celizic. Who the heck is Mike Celizic and how did he get his opinions listed on msnbc?

Really, my 7 year old could write as lucid a baseball analysis as that story.

[PDog]

Please, no one read that story. It is written by a knucklehead who claims the Orioles have "no pitching." The knucklehead's name is Mike Celizic. Who the heck is Mike Celizic and how did he get his opinions listed on msnbc?

Really, my 7 year old could write as lucid a baseball analysis as that story.

Totally agree with you. I thought it was a horrible article. Just thought since it was about the O's that it should be posted.

Sorry to upset you.

[Mark Carver]

Here's another article about the O's and the trade:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6883352/

This guy is frigin' joke! You have got to be kidding me... I cracked up reading this garbage...

"Pitching wins the AL East. It wins the division and it wins the wild card. And the Red Sox and Yankees not only have the pitching, but also the offense to back it up.

The Orioles have no pitching. If you don’t agree with that, name three starters on the Orioles. No? O.K., then name two. Still can’t do it? Don’t worry, no one else can, either.

Unless you follow the team religiously, you can’t do it. But you can name two starters on the Yankees and two on the Red Sox. An Oriole fan could argue that’s because Baltimore labors in obscurity, but anyone else can reply that’s because the team earns it."

BIG friggin' deal, so the average fan can't name the Orioles starters! How many average fans can name 3 or 2 Minnesota starters from their 2004 team, and they only led the AL in ERA last year. What a sorry excuse to down play the Orioles starters. There are questions on the Orioles starters for 2005, but I give you ladies and gentlemen, the 2005 Yankees starters. Kevin Brown, when he goes down with his usual mid-season injury than what? Randy ("get that camera out of my face") Johnson is 40 years old, the odds are that he will go down with an injury. Carl Pavano had 1, count them 1, very good season in his pro career. Jaret Wright, uhhh, I'm scared! The only dependable starter the Yankees have is Mike Mussina... and 2005 was not a very good year for Mussina posting a 4.59 ERA. If one of their starters goes down, who replaces them. How about 2 of their starters goes down...

"The Orioles are a bad team. Period. They need pitching first, offense second. And instead of getting pitching, the knuckleheads running the team are getting Sammy Sosa."

Yo, dunderhead! The 2004 Yankees scored 897 runs a game, the 2004 Orioles scored 842 runs. That's a 1/3 less runs per game than your beloved Yankees.

And even if he jumped back to 60 home runs in the Baltimore band box, the Orioles still stink. And they’ll continue to stink because they have no pitching.

2004 Post ASG -
Orioles, 4.26 ERA
Yankees, 4.95 ERA

I will most certainly take the 2005 Orioles bullpen, when compared as a whole to the 2005 Yankees bullpen.

[cindyluvsbrady]

I can't wait to see Tejada teach Sosa the twelve step handshake...
What is the Twleve step handshake and why do you call it that? :confused:

[bluedog]

I'm laughing at that; but man, you're liable to get roasted for that one. :eek:

I have no problem getting roasted for saying the truth. Bring it on. :)

[cindyluvsbrady]

Actually, I've been waiting to see what Cindy has to say...she's not going to be too happy! :D
You are right! I have been upset all day! :)

[bluedog]

Got the feeling last year that everybody on the team was pulling together. No individuals. Sammy is just going to be a distraction. As much as Tejada wanted him here , he is not a Tejada team oriented type of player. Would have rather had Cameron or Floyd even if it cost more.

Glad you know more about Sosa and his impact on the clubhouse than Tejada does. Too bad they didn't consult you before they pulled of the trade.

I mean come on - if Tejada felt it was worth his time (I'm sure he has better things to do than lobby to get an over the hill dose of club house poison on the team) to push hard to get Sammy on the team, then the least we can do is give Miggy the benefit of the doubt that he knows Sosa better than all of us combined.

Miggy is one of the most respected and well liked players in baseball. Why would he want to bring Sosa here if he didn't seriously like, respect and want to play beside him?

Sure it all makes sense! Miggy wants the team to make bad moves, spend their money on washed up players who won't help the club, bring in guys that will compete with him for the spotlight, cause controversy and shame the franchise because....????

Riddle me that Birdman?

[nevadaO]

Here's another article, I am not sure if it has been posted (I really don't feel like looking through 50 threads and 2,000 posts on the topic to see if it came up all ready :p ).

AP (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6884536/)

Some quotes:

“Maybe I’m putting my foot in my mouth,” Orioles pitching coach Ray Miller said Saturday, “but if you give me eight runs a game, I’ll figure out the rest.”

“He’s going to be a great impact on the lineup,” Baltimore outfielder David Newhan said. “Plus, that personality, that energy he brings, it’s something we needed.”

“We’ll probably hit him fourth, though we haven’t talked about it yet,” hitting coach Terry Crowley said. “It’s a big addition. It will make us better; I’m just not sure how much better.”

[bluedog]

Please, no one read that story. It is written by a knucklehead who claims the Orioles have "no pitching." The knucklehead's name is Mike Celizic. Who the heck is Mike Celizic and how did he get his opinions listed on msnbc?

Really, my 7 year old could write as lucid a baseball analysis as that story.

I just sent the following email to the Editor at MSNBC:

The article "Orioles have no clue, stupid to get Sosa" published on MSNBC on Jan 29, 2005 by Mike Celizic at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6883352/ was not only offensive to me as a reader and an O's fan, it was one of the worst examples of trash journalism I have ever seen published in any forum. If this is an example of the type of content MSNBC promotes, I certainly won't ever link over to msn.com again.

Mister Celizic's logic is horribly flawed and biased towards his hometown team throughout the article. His statements suggesting the Yankees pitching staff last year was significantly better than the "no named" Orioles staff is easily disproved simply by comparing the staff ERA's for the season. His use of such words as "dunderheads" and "knuckleheads" wouldn't be worthy of a quality high school journalist, much less a writer on the national stage. He fails to back up his assertions with any facts or even with statistical evidence or expert commentary from players, coaches or anyone else for that matter.

Possibly the worst part of this article is his inability to see the clear benefits that the Orioles and their fans will enjoy from Sosa's move to Baltimore - namely higher revenues from ticket sales as fans flock to see Sosa play and a lot more play for the team with national media as they follow Sosa (who still enjoys superstar status despite any percieved decline in his performance) in his new town. This presumes that Sosa doesn't actually improve his game at all and doesn't include his impact as a marketing icon for any new cable channel that Angelos might put in place or the PR bonanza the team will enjoy as Sosa closes in on 600 HRs.

I would love to have the opportunity to post a counter point to Mr. Celzic's article, and I guarantee it would be more lucid, have more facts backing it up and be less biased than what he authored.

Regards,

David Etheredge

[nevadaO]

I just sent the following email to the Editor at MSNBC:

The article "Orioles have no clue, stupid to get Sosa" published on MSNBC on Jan 29, 2005 by Mike Celizic at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6883352/ was not only offensive to me as a reader and an O's fan, it was one of the worst examples of trash journalism I have ever seen published in any forum. If this is an example of the type of content MSNBC promotes, I certainly won't ever link over to msn.com again.

Mister Celizic's logic is horribly flawed and biased towards his hometown team throughout the article. His statements suggesting the Yankees pitching staff last year was significantly better than the "no named" Orioles staff is easily disproved simply by comparing the staff ERA's for the season. His use of such words as "dunderheads" and "knuckleheads" wouldn't be worthy of a quality high school journalist, much less a writer on the national stage. He fails to back up his assertions with any facts or even with statistical evidence or expert commentary from players, coaches or anyone else for that matter.

Possibly the worst part of this article is his inability to see the clear benefits that the Orioles and their fans will enjoy from Sosa's move to Baltimore - namely higher revenues from ticket sales as fans flock to see Sosa play and a lot more play for the team with national media as they follow Sosa (who still enjoys superstar status despite any percieved decline in his performance) in his new town. This presumes that Sosa doesn't actually improve his game at all and doesn't include his impact as a marketing icon for any new cable channel that Angelos might put in place or the PR bonanza the team will enjoy as Sosa closes in on 600 HRs.

I would love to have the opportunity to post a counter point to Mr. Celzic's article, and I guarantee it would be more lucid, have more facts backing it up and be less biased than what he authored.

Regards,

David Etheredge

Awesome! :D

[Old#5fan]

He sounds like a typical arrogant and condescending NY Yankee fan to me. Put him in his place!!!

[Sapper]

He will likely be here for at least 2 years. We will sign him to some type of extension. It wouldn't go over well with fans to only have him here for 1 year.

We may attract other FA's to come here, after

A) Sosa is here and reverts to his old form
B) We start winning because of that

So, when Sosa leaves, we now have other guys ready to take over.

This was a good move by the FO, don't spin it differently.
Do you think I was "spinning" it too negatively still?

[Sapper]

I think it's just one more indication that this team has no clear direction. Heck, I'm as excited as anyone to see if Sosa CAN really be the power hitter we've been needing. BUT, it doesn't even put us close to catching up with Boston and NY and we're just wasting trade-bait with this move. Will it seel some seats? Yeah, maybe. I'd be more excited to hear B&F come out tomorrow and, instead of announcing this trade, announce what their long-term strategy to field a contender is. I'd rather hear that they took the 7M they're paying Sosa and actually invest it in the farm system and scouting and signing our draft picks. That's what would make me happy. This is neutral at best. This is just more cosmetic, reactive management that got us to 7 straight losing seasons to begin with.

I still think this is true.

[Sapper]

This seems like an absolute panic move which is par for the course with this team that is more interested in selling tickets than building a winner. At this point we'll have Sosa, Lopez, Palmeiro, and Ponson all leaving the team once we find out if Bedard and the like are ready to contribute, brilliant. :rolleyes: I'll reserve ultimate judgment until we figure out how much money is going to be spent on Sosa but there had to be better options. Besides the fact that Sosa exposed himself to be a self-centered jerk last year (nothing in common with Tejada) the guy is on a downward spiral to Bolivian. Maybe the Cubs will be picking up millions on this deal but I have to believe there is a handshake somewhere where Sosa resigns for a couple more years in Baltimore. This team is making it very hard for me to follow right now.
Very prescient.

[Sapper]

I still think it was a good trade. This trade will always be a good trade in my eyes no matter what happens, or what has happened, just as the D-Bat trade will always be a bad trade, even if he never pitches another inning in the majors.

I'm not saying there weren't better options that we should have/could have looked at. (Delgado, Sexson, Beltre, Dye) But the fact of the matter is trading a bench player for a guy that hit 35 HR's in his worst year ever was a good move. (IMO)
Well it's funny how the Orioles were the only ones seriously considering trading for Sosa if it was such a great deal. And Hairston's career is not over yet as well as one of the minor leaguers in the trade. Sosa contributed less than nothing to the Orioles though, pretty much as some of us thought he wouldn't. By your method of evaluation, trading for Glenn Davis was brilliant.

[Objectivity]

Well it's funny how the Orioles were the only ones seriously considering trading for Sosa if it was such a great deal. And Hairston's career is not over yet as well as one of the minor leaguers in the trade. Sosa contributed less than nothing to the Orioles though, pretty much as some of us thought he wouldn't. By your method of evaluation, trading for Glenn Davis was brilliant.

The trade got Hairston off the team, which is a primary reason why Roberts blossomed. That in and of itself was worth making the deal for. If we hadn't done it, Roberts would have been looking over his shoulder and the team could have played juggling 2Bs all season.

Instead, we told Roberts to sink or swim, and he crossed the Atlantic for us.

If we kept him, we would have received even less than Sosa because everyone would have known we had to dump one of the two.

[nadecir]

The trade got Hairston off the team, which is a primary reason why Roberts blossomed. That in and of itself was worth making the deal for. If we hadn't done it, Roberts would have been looking over his shoulder and the team could have played juggling 2Bs all season.

Instead, we told Roberts to sink or swim, and he crossed the Atlantic for us.

If we kept him, we would have received even less than Sosa because everyone would have known we had to dump one of the two.Is it possible to get less than Sosa? :o

I don't understand this line of thinking that says the trade was good because it opened up second base for Roberts. Would it have been a good deal to just waive Hairston to open up second for Hairston?

The only reason this trade was not a disaster is that Sosa was only signed for one year. If the organization did offer him an extension as rumored earlier this year, the Orioles are extremely luck that Sosa did not accept.

[Sapper]

Is it possible to get less than Sosa? :o
I agree. Talk about rationalizing. Tell you what, homers, check this thread. It's not about hindsight, some of us were saying this was stupid from the get go. We would have done better just waiving Hairston and spending the 8.5M on a REAL player.

[mweb]

The trade got Hairston off the team, which is a primary reason why Roberts blossomed. That in and of itself was worth making the deal for. If we hadn't done it, Roberts would have been looking over his shoulder and the team could have played juggling 2Bs all season.

Instead, we told Roberts to sink or swim, and he crossed the Atlantic for us.

If we kept him, we would have received even less than Sosa because everyone would have known we had to dump one of the two.

We could have traded Hairston for someone else, maybe someone who would actually help the franchise, or at least not hurt it, so that reason doesn't fly at all for me. And yeah, it would be almost impossible to get less than Sosa looking back on it.

[Sapper]

We could have traded Hairston for someone else, maybe someone who would actually help the franchise....

THANK YOU! Go back and read the tape on this thread. That's exactly what I said at the time.

[Tony-OH]

THANK YOU! Go back and read the tape on this thread. That's exactly what I said at the time.
I gonna lock this thread before it turns from a classic thread to bunch of Monday morning quarterbacking. The trade gave the Orioles a shot at something for giving up very little. It was a good trade, it just didn't work out because Sammy bombed.

Stop patting yourself on the back, you were only right in that Sammy ended up stinking up the joint. Other than that, you and the others were dead wrong.

Even now, if you think giving up Hairston or believing he had some sort of value you are sadly mistaken. He is what he is, and that's a part time utility guy. He wasn't going to be a key part of any type of major trade that was going to net us anything to improve the team.

B&F's failure to land a slugger was the main reason for this trade. Since they failed, they had to try something, and they did it without hurting the future. it didn't work out, but it didn't hurt us either, and if you take Roberts blossoming, then the trade helped.