POST: Flanny in charge! (interesting quotes)

[bigbird]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/10/AR2005101001071.html


I find the testing qoutes interested as well as Angelos' comments about 2005 free agents.

[Sports Guy]

Wow, the Ritterspusch comments are amazing but not surprising...His "test" did get in the way alot.

Amazing how screwed up things were/are. Wow.

[MChance]

This is a definite step in the right direction. Angelos is at the least saying all the right things. I have faith.

[Sports Guy]

Yeah, and it was Flanagan, not Beattie, who held them in high regard. That's a bit disturbing.

Yes it is....Although i was told that Flanny was very upset that the Orioles did the Dbat for Grimsley trade.

[Jagwar]

The team will look to bring in another executive to help with the day-to-day operations of the team, but there is no question that Flanagan is the boss and the dual general manager system has been discarded.

"Mike will be absolutely in charge," Angelos said

I absolutely love this quote. Should cut FA decisions at least in half. :D

[SilentJames]

this makes sense.

Flanny in charge, Perlozzo comes back - they are interviewing guys like th TB guy for an assistant GM position.

So how long until people start complaining about THIS?

[bgtimber75]

"Dave gets in the way a lot," one team official said.

"The organization has been hampered by it," said another official. "[Ritterpusch] tries to get involved in everything."


Several executives around baseball said the duo often was difficult to deal with in trade negotiations and made ridiculous player demands.

"I tried to contact both for over a week this summer at the trade deadline to discuss players and did not get one call returned," one National League executive said. "The only club of the 29 that did not return a call."

Bad, bad, bad. I'm not sure how much longer I can put up with this team. Everything screams disfunctional on so many levels.

[Sports Guy]

I absolutely love this quote. Should cut FA decisions at least in half. :D


No doubt...At least they are showing a direction...May be a poor one, but it is a direction nonetheless.

[JohnD]

I was about to post the same article, and title it The Test vs. Beattie. Beattie is gone, but there are other soldiers who were on his side.

[Sports Guy]

Bad, bad, bad. I'm not sure how much longer I can put up with this team. Everything screams disfunctional on so many levels.


Yea, those are some very disheartening quotes but maybe that all goes away now.

BTW, with all of this coming out, how come Beattie was not fired last year?

[Rockbird]

"I tried to contact both for over a week this summer at the trade deadline to discuss players and did not get one call returned," one National League executive said. "The only club of the 29 that did not return a call."

More flowering praise on our organization.

[Sports Guy]

Something I want to add about Mazzone...He will likely get offered big money by NY. IF, and that's a big IF, Angelos would also be willing to pony up the money to get him here, wouldn't that not really be a good idea since Perlozzo will be making much less than Mazzone will command on the open market?


I brought this up the other day.

Now, Mazzone may say i am staying in Atlanta or i will go with Sammy but would PA step up tot he plate and pay him? And, as you said, will he get more than Perlozzo?

[vab]

Maybe we don't have much evidence that the test evaluations work, but we don't have much evidence that they don't either. We have to wait to see how things turn out but these prospects, so far, look pretty good. I'm just glad these front office decisions are being made quickly and everybody should be pulling in the same direction now.

[Rockbird]

When told that the team had made a similar pledge last season and did not sign one free agent of note, Angelos said, "That certainly wasn't my decision."

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


One of those free agents could be Rafael Palmeiro. Angelos did not rule out bringing back the first baseman.

It's like Groundhog's Day...

[Jagwar]

Angelos said he is determined to improve his ballclub and he will spend money on free agents this offseason. "I think we know where we want to go," he said.

When told that the team had made a similar pledge last season and did not sign one free agent of note, Angelos said, "That certainly wasn't my decision."

One of those free agents could be Rafael Palmeiro. Angelos did not rule out bringing back the first baseman.

"I think Raffy has retired basically," he said. "He hasn't told me that. But I don't think he'll come back."

:eek: You have got to be freaking kidding me. How could Angelos ever imply that there was even a hint of a chance that Palmeiro could be back?

[Sports Guy]

Maybe we don't have much evidence that the test evaluations work, but we don't have much evidence that they don't either. We have to wait to see how things turn out but these prospects, so far, look pretty good. I'm just glad these front office decisions are being made quickly and everybody should be pulling in the same direction now.

Again, the tests are fine for the draft but not for vets.

[PJ - O's Fan]

One of those free agents could be Rafael Palmeiro. Angelos did not rule out bringing back the first baseman.

Fabulous.


Just fabulous.

[SilentJames]

Yea, those are some very disheartening quotes but maybe that all goes away now.

BTW, with all of this coming out, how come Beattie was not fired last year?


Seriously, the entire article comes off very positive except those two quotes. This is a good thing, the turmoil that a lot of people thought there would be does not look like its going to happen.

Like someone said earlier. The players get the manager they want, Flanny gets the manager he wants, Flanny gets the job with a FULL vote of confidence from an owner who seems to trust him whole heartedly and, at least says, he is going into this offseason guns blazing.

things are shaping up nicely for the O's so far. Its gonna be an intersting winter

[Rockbird]

God, while other teams are changing their approach to scouting by focusing on statistics and production, tangible things, we focus on voodoo and mind reading. Why can't we ever be run like a normal organization?

[SilentJames]

Fabulous.


Just fabulous.

the very next line::


"I think Raffy has retired basically," he said. "He hasn't told me that. But I don't think he'll come back."

[BrooksPalmer]

Being cheap and willing (not qualified for other teams) to work for an organization that only knows how to lose are the qualifications here.

This team doesn't want to win, you can tell by the fact they won't spend for an experienced manager nor a gm with a good track record.

Maybe after three more losing season Angelos will wake up one day and final realize he's been nothing but wrong with all his decisions, something any other moron would have realized long ago.

Congrats on driving away yet another fan Angelos, I'm not about to spend one grand a year for tickets to see a team that doesn't have a clue nor care enough to change things in order to win.

[Sports Guy]

Seriously, the entire article comes off very positive except those two quotes.


But those quotes are big time bad news...They are not something to poo poo.

[bgtimber75]

:eek: You have got to be freaking kidding me. How could Angelos ever imply that there was even a hint of a chance that Palmeiro could be back?


I've said it before but theonly way I'd allow Palmeiro back would be if he agreed to wear ear muffs for at least one at bat. The publicity for that couldn't be anything but positive.

[Hank Scorpio]

If Palmeiro comes BACK, I will never watch another Orioles game for the remainder of my life. *** Unless we sign Burnett, Millwood, Giles and trade for Adam Dunn.

[SilentJames]

Being cheap and willing (not qualified for other teams) to work for an organization that only knows how to lose are the qualifications here.

This team doesn't want to win, you can tell by the fact they won't spend for an experienced manager nor a gm with a good track record.

Maybe after three more losing season Angelos will wake up one day and final realize he's been nothing but wrong with all his decisions, something any other moron would have realized long ago.

Congrats on driving away yet another fan Angelos, I'm not about to spend one grand a year for tickets to see a team that doesn't have a clue nor care enough to change things in order to win.

Seriously, these guys just can't do anything right for some people here. You mean to tell me you would have rather seen Lou Pinella in here? You are part of the Cashman cult? Because Pinella is the only manager that fits THAT profile and Cashman, well his unemployment is just theory at this point so we should have waited for Cashman, which would have been a mistake too.

This is a solid move, this stuff is out of the way, now lets get to the FAs and see what can be done.

[mweb]

It might be a solid move, we'll see. It's hard to tell at this point, but I haven't seen much of anything to believe he will be a good GM and turns things around. But it's possible.

[BaltimoreTerp]

God, while other teams are changing their approach to scouting by focusing on statistics and production, tangible things, we focus on voodoo and mind reading. Why can't we ever be run like a normal organization?
Yeah, because with guys like Markakis, Penn, Fiorentino, Snyder, Olson, Reimold, Spears, etc. it looks like it's a terrible way to evaluate players.

This might be a better place to use my Oakland comparison from earlier :D

[bgtimber75]

Another postive I take from the article that I haven't seen mentioned is the bolded part:



As you know, quantitative analysis is essentially "focusing on statistics and production, tangible things."

This quote proves what I've long suspected. Flanagan wants to take more of a sabermetric approach, but was held back by Beattie.

Okay Flanny, git er done.


It seems odd to pair a tangible statistical approch with an intangible thing such as the phycological testing.

[Sports Guy]

Another postive I take from the article that I haven't seen mentioned is the bolded part:



As you know, quantitative analysis is essentially "focusing on statistics and production, tangible things."

This quote proves what I've long suspected. Flanagan wants to take more of a sabermetric approach, but was held back by Beattie.

Okay Flanny, git er done.


I agree...THis is why i hold out hope that this will be a good thing.

I agree with what Mweb said but i am not sure we have any real knowledge of how good or bad Flanny will be.

[SilentJames]

I agree...THis is why i hold out hope that this will be a good thing.

I agree with what Mweb said but i am not sure we have any real knowledge of how good or bad Flanny will be.

Exactly.

Lets do this

[Objectivity]

So everything that's gone wrong with the team in the past year is Beattie's fault and none of the blame goes anywhere else.

That's a nice interpretion for everyone but Beattie. I can't wait for his post-contract interview.

[Max Power]

As you know, quantitative analysis is essentially "focusing on statistics and production, tangible things."

This quote proves what I've long suspected. Flanagan wants to take more of a sabermetric approach, but was held back by Beattie.

Okay Flanny, git er done.
I'll go with the whole talk is cheap bit here. I love the focus as well but when you see quotes like this does it really matter?


Several executives around baseball said the duo often was difficult to deal with in trade negotiations and made ridiculous player demands.

"I tried to contact both for over a week this summer at the trade deadline to discuss players and did not get one call returned," one National League executive said. "The only club of the 29 that did not return a call."
I realize he was only an assistant but he was perfectly capable of picking up the phone. I have a bad feeling that the SABR decisions will be bogged down in process and will take a back seat to IQ tests but we'll have to wait and see.

[Sapper]

Called it.

Link to post 9-22-05 (http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=436827&postcount=13)


But you know what Drungo? None of any of that superficial crap matters because next September we'll still be at least 15 games back and Newmarket's point will be the same.

And I take issue that the GM will be better. It will likely be Flannagan who's proven nothing to me other than he's a useless Angelos lapdog who loves that stupid personality test.-Sapper 9/22/05

[ledzepp8]

One of those free agents could be Rafael Palmeiro. Angelos did not rule out bringing back the first baseman




It's like Groundhog's Day...
See this is just bad writing. He says this, which is entirely his opinion, and then quotes Angelos as saying the Raffy is pretty much retired and though he hasn't told him oficially that he doesn't think he's coming back. Angelos never even mentioned bringing Raffy back.

[Sports Guy]

So everything that's gone wrong with the team in the past year is Beattie's fault and none of the blame goes anywhere else.

That's a nice interpretion for everyone but Beattie. I can't wait for his post-contract interview.


Well it still all goes back to PA for his inability to establish order and rank within the organization.

He had MAz and Beattie "running" things but PA seemed to respect Perlozzo, Dempsey and Flanny more.

That is pathetic.

[Sports Guy]

I'll go with the whole talk is cheap bit here. I love the focus as well but when you see quotes like this does it really matter?


I realize he was only an assistant but he was perfectly capable of picking up the phone. I have a bad feeling that the SABR decisions will be bogged down in process and will take a back seat to IQ tests but we'll have to wait and see.


I agree Max and this is my worry as well.

Bottom line is you will know how good or bad Flanny is by ST....No need to have to wait a full year or whatever to evaluate him. One offseason is what he gets.

[TonySoprano]

So everything that's gone wrong with the team in the past year is Beattie's fault and none of the blame goes anywhere else.

That's a nice interpretion for everyone but Beattie. I can't wait for his post-contract interview.

That was my read of the article as well. The "buck stopped" with Beattie. Flanagan, and even Angelos had no part. Angelos says he wasn't the reason the Orioles didn't spend money last offseason. However, both B&F commented on the lack of a budget due to the uncertainty about D.C. as a problem. It is Angelos and not B&F that sets the budget.
So how has it come to this? Is the new team in Washington making life that difficult? Or have Beattie and Flanagan suddenly forgotten how to do their jobs? When pressed last week, Flanagan admitted the Orioles haven't been as aggressive with free agents as they were last year. But they have their reasons.

"It's a combination of a high market [for players' salaries], and not having an idea what our future looks like," he said.

Until last Sunday, the Orioles were careful not to speak about the difficulties they've been facing as owner Peter Angelos negotiates a settlement with Major League Baseball over the Expos' move to Washington.

But last week, Flanagan didn't hold back.

"I think it's had a considerable effect this offseason," he said. "If you owned a McDonald's franchise, no one else could put a McDonald's within a certain radius, two or three miles. You could put a Burger King right next door, but not a McDonald's."

The negotiations have been a roller coaster ride. At one point, it seemed MLB was ready to hand them a generous commitment. Then, there was the long stretch where it looked as though the D.C. council had killed the Expos' move altogether. And now there's a very real sense the Orioles might have to sue MLB to protect their long-range investment.

"It seems," Flanagan said, "like we're always hanging on our next meeting [with MLB]." Source - "The Sun" - January 15, 2005

[TGO]

Well it still all goes back to PA for his inability to establish order and rank within the organization.

He had MAz and Beattie "running" things but PA seemed to respect Perlozzo, Dempsey and Flanny more.

That is pathetic.

I agree. Flanagan and Perlozzo wouldn't be my choices for GM and manager, but at least Angelos now has the guys he likes and trusts and won't be sneaking around talking to people who aren't actually in charge. If you're going to have an organization full of sycophants (worst case scenario), at least let them make the decisions and don't just have them spying on the people making decisions.

That being said, I'm willing to give these guys a shot and see what happens. I won't say we can't do much worse as that that phrase proved the death knell for our 2005 season. :( But while not optimistic I will at least not be a naysayer.

[mweb]

See this is just bad writing. He says this, which is entirely his opinion, and then quotes Angelos as saying the Raffy is pretty much retired and though he hasn't told him oficially that he doesn't think he's coming back. Angelos never even mentioned bringing Raffy back.

I'll agree with you on that one, it doesn't seem like there's much of a chance of Raffy being an O next year. So people should calm down regarding that.

[Rockbird]

Another postive I take from the article that I haven't seen mentioned is the bolded part:



As you know, quantitative analysis is essentially "focusing on statistics and production, tangible things."

This quote proves what I've long suspected. Flanagan wants to take more of a sabermetric approach, but was held back by Beattie.

Okay Flanny, git er done.

OK, didn't see that part. Still think the psychological testing is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of to evaluate players.

[BrooksPalmer]

Seriously, these guys just can't do anything right for some people here. You mean to tell me you would have rather seen Lou Pinella in here? You are part of the Cashman cult? Because Pinella is the only manager that fits THAT profile and Cashman, well his unemployment is just theory at this point so we should have waited for Cashman, which would have been a mistake too.

This is a solid move, this stuff is out of the way, now lets get to the FAs and see what can be done.

They both have been a part of our constant losing and neither are qualified to take a team that cannot lose in a 9th straight season into the postseason.

[jeff ballard]

I am hardly an optimist when it comes to anything regarding this once proud franchise, but for once I think this is actually the correct baseball decision. It combines some much needed continuity with some culpability. Who knows if flanny and sammy are gonna work but I for one think its better than starting over again as we usually (and unsuccessfully) do.

[Sports Guy]

I agree completely, I'm not saying that I'm blindly following Flanagan or that I think things will change overnight. But there is no doubt in my mind that he and Beattie clashed. Beattie is as old school as you get, and Flanagan at least talks a good game. I think ultimately, the idea of hiring someone to mentor Flanagan until he learned the ropes wasn't necessarily a terrible idea. The terrible idea was pairing someone who seemingly wants to follow a more modern approach with someone who is as old school as you get.

One other point, this one for anyone hoping for major changes on the coaching staff. As much as I hate to say it, I think the Flanagan/Perlozzo pairing will mean continuity on the coaching staff. I'll predict that Dempsey, Crowley, and Trebelhorn stay.

Yea, i am worried about this as well, especially with Demsey and Crow, 2 former teammates of Flanny's.

[jilly]

Something is making Flannagan a beliver in the personality test. Maybe he knows something they aint telling. Maybe Palmer, Ripken, and Murray all could be found to have the same basic personality trait. It would make sense to look for people who had that trait if they also happened to be ball players. Alot of what makes up a champion is mental. Trying to draft the mental and the physical isnt crazy it may be inspired. It might however be a little ahead of our ability to statistically map it. So it seems like hocus pocus nonsenses. It isnt. However I would only take the one who tested higher if all things besides made it an equal pick.

[Why Not?]

This team doesn't want to win, you can tell by the fact they won't spend for an experienced manager nor a gm with a good track record.


A quick glance through some media guides........none of the teams remaining in the playoffs hired a "GM with a good track record".

--The Cards hired Jockety out of the Rockies organization, he had never been a GM.
--Cashman worked his way up through the MFY organization but had never been a GM.
--Chisox's Ken Williams had been a player development guy, but never a GM. Ozzie Guillen is in his second season as a manager.
--Stoneman had worked in the business world for a few years before getting a gig (not as GM) with the Expos. He had never been a GM. Manager Mike Sciosca had never managed before the Anaheim job.
--Houston's Tim Purpura was a player dev. guy who worked his way up through the Astros system.

[Sapper]

Wow. Sounds like there were big problems with Beattie...Could that be why all was always quiet and slow?

Also...Angelos saying it wasn't his decision to not sign FA's last year? And they know where they want to go this year?

The offseason should be really interesting.
Funny how no one wondered if Beattie was an idiot until he started working for Angelos.

[Sapper]

I absolutely love this quote. Should cut FA decisions at least in half. :D
They may not be fast but they should at least be half-fast.

[Sports Guy]

Funny how no one wondered if Beattie was an idiot until he started working for Angelos.


Well when you look at his history as a GM, it is not like he was setting the world on fire.

[Hank Scorpio]

One other point, this one for anyone hoping for major changes on the coaching staff. As much as I hate to say it, I think the Flanagan/Perlozzo pairing will mean continuity on the coaching staff. I'll predict that Dempsey, Crowley, and Trebelhorn stay.

You're the man and you're always on point, but MAAAAAAAAAAN I hope you're wrong about Crowley. I actually don't mind Dempsey as much.

I would tend to believe that anyone taking any sort of sabermetric / modern / new school approach could easily see that the largest offensive problem we have is OBP/OPS.

[Rockbird]

Yeah the whole "it wasn't my decision" when confronted with why no free agents were aquired was puzzling. Is he trying to spin it that it was the players and agents who turned them down (even though "no player when given a fair offer has ever turned down playing in Baltimore" of course)? It was well known, Angelos had the purse strings tight because of the pending Nationals and MASN deals. It's known too that it was Angelos who pushed for Sosa. So, basically Angelos is just making things up here. I highly doubt Peter said "do what it takes to sign Delgado or Sexson" and Beattie just said "no, I'd rather not. I think I'll lowball them instead".

[Oriole Way]

more of the same from Sportsline's article...

"An Orioles' decision to stick with him [Perlozzo] also could signal that Angelos is listening to baseball people advising him that the club, after eight consecutive losing seasons, is still not yet ready to win. The Orioles this year finished 10th in the AL in club ERA and 10th in the league in runs scored."

"Under the Angelos-Beattie-Flanagan arrangement, other GMs and agents all have complained that negotiating with Baltimore is next to impossible because of the slow pace at which things move. Beattie and Flanagan never seemed to have the authority to make a deal on the spot, always having to take it back to the executive offices, and often a definitive answer didn't come for multiple days."

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/8949938

[Sports Guy]

If i am Flanagan, i think i am calling every team and apologizing to them for how difficult the team has been to negotiate with.

I would tell them that it is a new regime and that we plan to be active and that we will always be on the phone.

Gain some immediate respect from these guys who probably view us as a laughing stock.

[Sapper]

At least this means we're about three years away from the Orioles maybe realizing that they need to clean house. That's about how long it will take for this "experiment" to run it's course. There is no doubt Flanny/Sammy will mean 3 more wasted years. They're Angelos's first picks. That right there means they're yes-men and not going to get anything positive accomplished.

[Sports Guy]

At least this means we're about three years away from the Orioles maybe realizing that they need to clean house. That's about how long it will take for this "experiment" to run it's course. There is no doubt Flanny/Sammy will mean 3 more wasted years. They're Angelos's first picks. That right there means they're yes-men and not going to get anything positive accomplished.


This offseason tells it all.

1) Who do they go after?

2) Are they active in the trade market?

3) Are the coaches brought back?

4) Are competitive contracts offered?

5) How slow are we?


Come February, we will know if this will be a success or a failure....It will not take 3 years, it will take 3 months.

[Max Power]

If i am Flanagan, i think i am calling every team and apologizing to them for how difficult the team has been to negotiate with.

I would tell them that it is a new regime and that we plan to be active and that we will always be on the phone.

Gain some immediate respect from these guys who probably view us as a laughing stock.
Couldn't disagree more. I think the whole concept of dumping on Beattie only after his departure is juvenile and it just reflects poorly on the Orioles. Continuing to pile on at this point would just reinforce that this isnt a team people want to work for. Best thing they can do is admit that the entire organization that was in shambles for the better part of these past 8 years and that they are going to go about improving the way they do business.

I also think a lot of you missed this quote from John who I am sure had a good idea what was going on inside the clubhouse. Since he did, there is a lot you can read into from this comment.

I was about to post the same article, and title it The Test vs. Beattie. Beattie is gone, but there are other soldiers who were on his side.

[mweb]

This offseason tells it all.

1) Who do they go after?

2) Are they active in the trade market?

3) Are the coaches brought back?

4) Are competitive contracts offered?

5) How slow are we?


Come February, we will know if this will be a success or a failure....It will not take 3 years, it will take 3 months.

Well maybe for us, but probably not for PA.

[Sports Guy]

Best thing they can do is admit that the entire organization that was in shambles for the better part of these past 8 years and that they are going to go about improving the way they do business.
.


This is essentially what i meant Max...If it didn't come across that way, my bad...Basically, they need to admit they have been pathetic but that this is not the way it is anymore.

[Sports Guy]

Well maybe for us, but probably not for PA.


Unfortunately, you are right.

When B and F were hired, it was we had to give them more than the offseason...People said, lets see how the trade deadline goes..>Then it was, at least give them a full offseason to see what they can do.

For Flanny, i do not think this is what is neccassary.

We will know what we got by ST...I have little doubt about that.

[BaltimoreTerp]

This offseason tells it all.

1) Who do they go after?

2) Are they active in the trade market?

3) Are the coaches brought back?

4) Are competitive contracts offered?

5) How slow are we?


Come February, we will know if this will be a success or a failure....It will not take 3 years, it will take 3 months.
I'll say this, at least most people have an open mind about this, and those who don't are those expected not to.

Definately a good sign regarding the gloom that has come over this site over the past months.

Hopefully both the moves and the attitude will continue to improve :)

[Sports Guy]

I'll say this, at least most people have an open mind about this, and those who don't are those expected not to.

Definately a good sign regarding the gloom that has come over this site over the past months.

Hopefully both the moves and the attitude will continue to improve :)


Let me ask you something.

Lets say that those i listed all turn out to be the way they are now come Feb.

What will your reaction to Flanny be at that point?

[BaltimoreTerp]

Let me ask you something.

Lets say that those i listed all turn out to be the way they are now come Feb.

What will your reaction to Flanny be at that point?
Not very good.

[Sports Guy]

Not very good.

So, you will agree that one offseason is likely enough to judge him on?

[BaltimoreTerp]

So, you will agree that one offseason is likely enough to judge him on?
It will be a good indicator.

He has the full offseason to work, as opposed to when he and Beattie were hired, so I think the first offseaon will actually be worth looking at this time.

[nadecir]

Couldn't disagree more. I think the whole concept of dumping on Beattie only after his departure is juvenile and it just reflects poorly on the Orioles. Continuing to pile on at this point would just reinforce that this isnt a team people want to work for. Best thing they can do is admit that the entire organization that was in shambles for the better part of these past 8 years and that they are going to go about improving the way they do business.
Let's name the "dumpees" since the beginning of the Angelos administration. Let me see, it has been Johnny Oates, Phil Regan, Pat Gillick, Kevin Malone, Ray Miller, Davey Johnson, Frank Wren, Don Buford, Mark Wiley, Eddie Murray, Syd Thrift, Mike Hargrove, Doc Rodgers, Tony DeMacio, Lee Mazilli, Jim Beattie, among others. At various points in time, all these guys have been dumped on by either the Orioles, media, or folks like us on their way out the door. Getting fired by Angelos isn't an indication that you are a bad coach, general manager, or scouting director.

I guess you could add Brooks Robinson, Frank Robinson< John Lowenstein and Jon Miller as Oriole outcasts too.

[Sports Guy]

It will be a good indicator.

He has the full offseason to work, as opposed to when he and Beattie were hired, so I think the first offseaon will actually be worth looking at this time.


Do we need to sticky this? :D

[scOtt]

You're the man and you're always on point, but MAAAAAAAAAAN I hope you're wrong about Crowley. I actually don't mind Dempsey as much.

I would tend to believe that anyone taking any sort of sabermetric / modern / new school approach could easily see that the largest offensive problem we have is OBP/OPS.
I agree with everything 70 said too, except for that one thing. If it is a more sabrmetric approach, OBP will be important, and Crow should be a definite target. I'll just keep my fingers crossed.

[scOtt]

Do we need to sticky this? :D
Only til about New Years...

[TinCup]

Yea, those are some very disheartening quotes but maybe that all goes away now.

BTW, with all of this coming out, how come Beattie was not fired last year?

Not only was he not fired, but the article indicates he may be retained as a consultant? Is that the way you "reward" ineptitude, mediocrity? Come on, part ways and be done with it already!!!

Also, did I really read where they might bring Raffy back?

PA: Yes, loyal fans, we dived into the free agent pool and our catch of the day is one Raffy Palmeiro. He is all we really need."

Good grief.

[Hank Scorpio]

Not only was he not fired, but the article indicates he may be retained as a consultant? Is that the way you "reward" ineptitude, mediocrity? Come on, part ways and be done with it already!!!

Also, did I really read where they might bring Raffy back?

PA: Yes, loyal fans, we dived into the free agent pool and our catch of the day is one Raffy Palmeiro. He is all we really need."

Good grief.

I would be absolutely astounded if Palmeiro saw any value in coming back.

[geschinger]

I believe this is a move in a positive direction. From what I read about Flanny it sounds like he has some good ideas on how to run things. We know for instance that Boston - an org I think we all agree does things better than most - thought extremly highly of his ideas.

I think the Duo GM situation served it's purpose even if ultimately unsuccessful. Flannagan has had a couple of years to learn and to see how his theories can be applied. While the major league club is still not in good shape the duo GM reign has left a minor league situation that is much better today than it was when they took over.

As for the pysch testing, leaning heavily on it is not something unique. The Braves are a team that leans heavily on pysch testing and they are extremly successful at discarding players who are about do decline and acquiring players who are about to improve. It sounds like Flannagan's approach may rely on them more heavily than most.

If Angelos believes in Flannagan he needs to give him the power to adjust personnel in the front office. Anytime someone tries to implement an innovative approach there is going to be inevitable pushback from those who want things to remain status-quo. If those people can't be pushed out then it will make it harder for success to be had.

[Fan4Life]

I don't think psych tests are used in any way to evaluate baseball talent. I would think they are used to determine personality traits / characteristics. How well you perform under pressure. Work ethic, ability to follow instruction or act without requiring insrtuction etc... so perhaps these tests find the best "person" and combine that with the statistical analysis which finds the best baseball player and together they provide you someone of value. Obviusly if this is true, than they have either had poor tests, poor statistical analysis or both up to this point.

[RZNJ]

I think the biggest fear some of us have with the psych tests is that they will outweigh the baseball statistics which we feel should have the priority in the evalutations.

[IMFORO'S]

I don't think Jim ever had a chance to manage this team. Two cooks spoil the pot or was it three or four or five cooks screwing up this dish? I know Jim didn't want Sammy heck he wasn't at the press conferance when the Sammy deal was announced. Great, if Flanny is the man then everyone get out of his way and let him turn this thing around.

[Mark Carver]

OK, didn't see that part. Still think the psychological testing is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of to evaluate players.

So a player like Carl Everett, who we all now know is stone crazy, nuts and is detriment to the clubhouse... how else do you determine to find out the makeup of a Carl Everett?

[Witchy Chick]

I have no idea what the Orioles psychological testing entails. That being said, I have a picture in my mind of the testing administered to Will Smith's character (and other recruits) in the Men in Black movie. The "test" wasn't the written test itself, but rather how the recruits would go about solving some sort of problem (i.e. needing a writing surface in order to take the test). :D Ya' know - overcome adverse conditions, think outside the box, yada yada yada.

I have no issue with the O's using a psych test as part of an overall evaluation method. Our "recruits" should be evaluated primarily on their on-field abilities. However, I think evaluating their off-field abilities and personalities would go a long way to excluding/weeding out the undesirable types (which makes me wonder if Ponson ever took The Test).


Witchy

[nadecir]

I wonder how well Sidney Ponson did on the pysch tests? If he did well, that's reason enough to throw out the validity of the test.

And did you see Rick Maese's column in the Sun this morning. He think it seems that Flanagan got the job because he was a "FOP" - a Friend of Peter. He also points out that Flanagan was the one who did the work on Ponson's contract.

"And while Beattie and Flanagan worked side-by-side on negotiating Miguel Tejada's deal, it's important to note that Beattie was the one who took the lead role on most free-agent contracts. In fact, the only one that Flanagan took a lead on was Sidney Ponson's - and he left out key wording that would've addressed a weight limit."

I thought Sapper could be brutal, but Maese's is really harsh on the Flanagan hiring. Read this comment:

"None of this is to suggest that Flanagan isn't capable of doing the job, but collectively there wasn't enough that went right this season to spread around too much credit. Apparently there was enough, though, for Angelos to reward Flanagan, his jack-of-all-trades who has done everything short of dressing up as the Oriole Bird."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-sp.maese11oct11,1,7603531.column?coll=bal-sports-headlines

[RZNJ]

So a player like Carl Everett, who we all now know is stone crazy, nuts and is detriment to the clubhouse... how else do you determine to find out the makeup of a Carl Everett?


You didn't need a psych test to form an opinion on Carl Everett, did you? Also, he may be a little nuts but he doesn't seem to have hurt the White Sox too much.

[jwfarrar]

I just see nothing about these moves that don't point to status quo. Angelos gets a yes man, and still can say he is making changes, but time will tell.

[bgtimber75]

I just see nothing about these moves that don't point to status quo. Angelos gets a yes man, and still can say he is making changes, but time will tell.
I agree, on paper it doesn't look like much of a change. I will try and remain positive ;) about it through the offseason though. This FO has a shot with me just like the previous FO had there shot.

[RZNJ]

I agree, on paper it doesn't look like much of a change. I will try and remain positive ;) about it through the offseason though. This FO has a shot with me just like the previous FO had there shot.


This is the previous FO! :D

[bgtimber75]

This is the previous FO! :D

Shhhh....I'm trying to remain positive. :D

[jwfarrar]

This is the previous FO! :D

That's kind of how I feel about it, except they have lost their scapegoat. Now, only Angelos and his minions are on the hook. Which may give Pete the motivation to succeed.

[Mark Carver]

You didn't need a psych test to form an opinion on Carl Everett, did you? Also, he may be a little nuts but he doesn't seem to have hurt the White Sox too much.

I just used Carl Everett as an example of why some form of psych testing is needed to judge ballplayers. I certainly wouldn't want the Orioles to acquire a Carl Everett type player.

BTW - even though the White Sox have a $5m option ($0.5m buyout) year on Everett for 2006, I've been hearing that they will not be bringing him back due to actions on and off the field.

[Sapper]

And did you see Rick Maese's column in the Sun this morning. He think it seems that Flanagan got the job because he was a "FOP" - a Friend of Peter.

That's exactly why he got it.

[Sports Guy]

That's exactly why he got it.

No doubt about it....As you have said and as many have said for a while now, he is a yes man and a lap dog for PA.

However, what we do not know about him are his philisophies and how he plans to implement them. We do not know the importance he will place on things like OBP.

What does he feel about platoons? Things like that.

So, while he be a lap dog, he could still be an upgrade...However, we do not know that yet...But we will know by Feb.

[geschinger]

No doubt about it....As you have said and as many have said for a while now, he is a yes man and a lap dog for PA.

However, what we do not know about him are his philisophies and how he plans to implement them. We do not know the importance he will place on things like OBP.

What does he feel about platoons? Things like that.

So, while he be a lap dog, he could still be an upgrade...However, we do not know that yet...But we will know by Feb.

What we do know is that an organization that I think you agree is well run (Boston) was extremly high on Flannagan. That tells me that in theory at least he's got a lot of potential and some solid ideas on how things should be run. He is in charge now so we can all hold him accountable for the results.

[RZNJ]

SG & Sapper, although I'm quite skeptical of Flanagan, calling him a lapdog and a yes man seems a bit harsh. That suggests that he can't think for himself and has no vision other than PA's. I have to give him more credit than that. No GM will ever have enough power to overrule PA so we might as well have one who PA is more lible to defer to every now and then.

[tennOsfan]

We'll have to wait and see how Flanagan works out. I'm hopeful it does. The positive I do see at this point is that we'll have a semplance of continuity in the offseason -- the people who have to make decisions have already been working on such decisions. If you brought in a whole new GM, he'd have to evaluate all the arbitration-eligibles on the roster, figure out what coaches were worth having, etc. At least now we have one guy making that call (assuming Angelos doesn't have his fingers in everything).

My suggestions to Flanagan would be to consult with Perlozzo first thing. Figure out what kind of team you want to have. The idea of a lineup that works counts, gets a higher OBP and uses platoons to cheaply but efficiently score runs is an idea that appeals to me. I'd like to see a team that has smarter at-bats with better situational hitting. If Flanagan and Perlozzo think that way, then they need to figure out who can be the hitting coach to help get them there. Crowley isn't the one. He's a good guy, but he's not gotten the job done.

Then I'd look into the Leo Mazzone possibility. If there's a 5% chance we could get him, I'd do everything in the world to get it done, if it meant walking his dog, cooking him supper, whatever. If it costs $1 million a year to sign him, do it. Give Sam a raise too to make it look right. That may be a lot of money for a pitching coach, but that's a whole lot cheaper than signing FA pitchers who stink. Mazzone is instant pitching credibility, notwithstanding the quality coach Ray Miller is. Get Mazzone done. Get him on board and let him help you target some FA pitchers who can handle some roles.

The third thing I'd do is what SportsGuy said. Call all the other organizations and tell them you'll be available for future talks. Tell them the decision-making process will be streamlined -- that you're in charge. Make that whole process work for a change.

As far as Flanagan being a yes-man to Angelos, perhaps that's a problem but it can also be a plus. If Angelos likes Flanny and respects him, perhaps he'll defer more to his baseball judgment than he would have with Beattie. Maybe.

After all that, figure out a way to get a legit four hitter. Our lineup went downhill last year when after two months of ineffective Sammy Sosa at-bats, other teams began to shed their fear of Sammy's image and logged him down as easy outs. Every single batter above Sammy had his production decline once it was obvious that Sammy wasn't the 60-homer man he once was. Get someone who can handle that role, whatever the price, then sign Bengie Molina to catch most of the time. Move Javy to first, let him play the whole year while he plays for a contract and he'll be fine.

This team can win next year if all that goes as planned. I swear I believe that.

[Sports Guy]

What we do know is that an organization that I think you agree is well run (Boston) was extremly high on Flannagan. That tells me that in theory at least he's got a lot of potential and some solid ideas on how things should be run. He is in charge now so we can all hold him accountable for the results.And this is true...This is another reason why i hold out hope that he can be a solid GM.

[RustyMcNail]

OK, didn't see that part. Still think the psychological testing is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of to evaluate players.

If psychological testing is a true judge of character and makeup, why did we resign Ponson and Palmiero?

On the plus side, Flanagan's reported love of Quantitative (or Statistical) Analysis (or Sabermetrics) is reason for hope.

[rolliefingers]

Like a lot of folks here, I'm willing to give Flanny this offseason to prove his worth. He may be an Angelos lap dog, but in the end I think that just means that Angelos trusts him.

(This raises the obvious question: If he trusted Flanny and not Beattie to begin with, why didn't he just hire someone he trusted as Flanny's mentor? But I digress.)

And if Angelos trusts him, then maybe he'll be more hands-off. We'll just have to see.

I agree with SG and others that the ball's in Flanny's court RIGHT NOW. There will be no caveats or qualifiers to describe his performance this offseason.

I too have misgivings about the psychological tests, but maybe Ponson and Palmeiro were learning experiences for Flanny? Who knows.

I also have misgivings about Flanny's approach to the coaching staff. Will he have the balls to fire Crowley, a former teammate? How about Dempsey, for undermining Mazzilli? He and Perlozzo may be too close to the organization for comfort, and I wonder if loyalties will get in the way of cold reason. Again, quien sabe?

Bottom line is: It's f-in ON. :D Let's do this.

[scOtt]

Maybe Ponson and Palmiero show that the psyche tests aren't the last word.

[The Goob]

We'll have to wait and see how Flanagan works out. I'm hopeful it does. The positive I do see at this point is that we'll have a semplance of continuity in the offseason -- the people who have to make decisions have already been working on such decisions. If you brought in a whole new GM, he'd have to evaluate all the arbitration-eligibles on the roster, figure out what coaches were worth having, etc. At least now we have one guy making that call (assuming Angelos doesn't have his fingers in everything).

This team can win next year if all that goes as planned. I swear I believe that.

Right, because the continuity served us so well last offseason. While I would agree that there is a chance that they can win next year I hold out no hope that it will or can be done with the system that is in place. Last time I checked PGA still owned the team.

Blind faith and hope is useless. I hope Flanagan will begin given full control but I just have no expectation that it will actually happen. I also am not sure even if he was given full control he is up to the task. The results thus far from him are not encouraging.

[Sapper]

SG & Sapper, although I'm quite skeptical of Flanagan, calling him a lapdog and a yes man seems a bit harsh. That suggests that he can't think for himself and has no vision other than PA's. I have to give him more credit than that. No GM will ever have enough power to overrule PA so we might as well have one who PA is more lible to defer to every now and then.
If you work for someone who is as destructive and dysfunctional as PA and if you care about an organization, at some point, if you can't change it, you must go public and/or quit on principal. That is the only way things change.

If you condone it, continue to work under those conditions and publicly support it, at some point you are PART OF THE PROBLEM. Flanny has made himself a lapdog and he has no credibility from me.

With all that has come public about what goes on in the Warehouse, if you continue to support PA, as Flanny does, you are PART OF THE PROBLEM.

[RZNJ]

If you work for someone who is as destructive and dysfunctional as PA and if you care about an organization, at some point, if you can't change it, you must go public and/or quit on principal. That is the only way things change.

If you condone it, continue to work under those conditions and publicly support it, at some point you are PART OF THE PROBLEM. Flanny has made himself a lapdog and he has no credibility from me.

With all that has come public about what goes on in the Warehouse, if you continue to support PA, as Flanny does, you are PART OF THE PROBLEM.

So under your theory, anyone who is not a lap dog would not work for the Orioles in the first place. Right? :D

[Sapper]

So under your theory, anyone who is not a lap dog would not work for the Orioles in the first place. Right? :D
Probably not for very long, at least not at the highest levels.

[nadecir]

So under your theory, anyone who is not a lap dog would not work for the Orioles in the first place. Right? :DA strong leader might take a job with the Orioles with the hope that they could change the organization for the better. But if came down to major decisions that they could never support, they should make a stand on their principles.

Say if the owner decided at the last minute to change the team's first round draft choice without any warning. Someone with guts in the front office might be forced to issue an ultimatum. Such as, "I feel strongly about this selection in the draft. We have done months and months of research and determined that our selection in the draft is the best one available, and he is signable. If you force the team to make a different selection now, I will resign immediately, since I can't tolerate decisions that are not in the best interest of our organization."

I'm sure this kind of thing has happened in the past under Angelos, but I haven't heard of it. We do need more stronger, forceful personalities in the Oriole organization to push Angelos away when he is interfering with the team at the wrong time.

[PaulFolk]

Say if the owner decided at the last minute to change the team's first round draft choice without any warning. Someone with guts in the front office might be forced to issue an ultimatum. Such as, "I feel strongly about this selection in the draft. We have done months and months of research and determined that our selection in the draft is the best one available, and he is signable. If you force the team to make a different selection now, I will resign immediately, since I can't tolerate decisions that are not in the best interest of our organization."

I'm sure this kind of thing has happened in the past under Angelos, but I haven't heard of it. We do need more stronger, forceful personalities in the Oriole organization to push Angelos away when he is interfering with the team at the wrong time.
But the thing is...most people would like to keep their jobs. :D

[RZNJ]

But the thing is...most people would like to keep their jobs. :D


Right! This is the real world. Most people don't have the guts to resign on principle unless they have another job waiting for them.

[Sapper]

But the thing is...most people would like to keep their jobs. :D
And if you still have that same job three years later and haven't spoken up or gone and gotten another job, you're a lapdog. Sorry, but that's just reality. Real men are not tested in the EASY times.

[nadecir]

But the thing is...most people would like to keep their jobs. :DSo your choice is this: #1, have someone else make major decisions that you are hired to make - decisions that you dont agree with, or #2 stand up for your principles and leave if necessary. I'd choose quit, with the hope that I could get a job with a rational organization. Quitting is better in my mind than passively agreeing with bad decisions, ruining your reputation, and getting fired eventually anyway. That kind of job is a slow painful torture, for me at least.

If more people stood up to Angelos, eventually we'd have a better team.

[PaulFolk]

And if you still have that same job three years later and haven't spoken up or gone and gotten another job, you're a lapdog.
A lap dog, sure...but a financially secure lap dog!

[PaulFolk]

So your choice is this: #1, have someone else make major decisions that you are hired to make - decisions that you dont agree with, or #2 stand up for your principles and leave if necessary. I'd choose quit, with the hope that I could get a job with a rational organization. Quitting is better in my mind than passively agreeing with bad decisions, ruining your reputation, and getting fired eventually anyway. That kind of job is a slow painful torture, for me at least.

If more people stood up to Angelos, eventually we'd have a better team.
This is just one of those things that's easier said than done. We can sit here and call for people we've never met to just up and quit. But it's not that simple for them. For them, the comfort of having a job may outweigh the disappointment of getting overruled on a few decisions. Heck, I'd probably be in the same boat. If I were in charge of the draft, and Angelos burst in and said, "You can't take the high school SS, you have to take a college pitcher," I really don't think I'd be so insulted and outraged that I'd threaten to quit on the spot. More likely, I'd be like, "Well, that sucks," and then I'd regroup and pick the best college pitcher I could find.

Then again, maybe I'm just a wimp. :D

Maybe there's a Noble McHeartofGold out there who would sooner resign than accept a single decision that he thinks isn't in the Orioles' best interests. But I don't blame the Orioles' staff for not thinking the same way.

[Sapper]

This is just one of those things that's easier said than done. We can sit here and call for people we've never met to just up and quit. But it's not that simple for them. For them, the comfort of having a job may outweigh the disappointment of getting overruled on a few decisions. Heck, I'd probably be in the same boat. If I were in charge of the draft, and Angelos burst in and said, "You can't take the high school SS, you have to take a college pitcher," I really don't think I'd be so insulted and outraged that I'd threaten to quit on the spot. More likely, I'd be like, "Well, that sucks," and then I'd regroup and pick the best college pitcher I could find.

Then again, maybe I'm just a wimp. :D

Maybe there's a Noble McHeartofGold out there who would sooner resign than accept a single decision that he thinks isn't in the Orioles' best interests. But I don't blame the Orioles' staff for not thinking the same way.
Either Flannagan helped make a lot of really stupid decisions and slowed the "process" to a crawl in almost every negotiation to the point that the Orioles are a laughing stock or he had that situation forced upon him by Angelos. Either way to be part of it and defend it and to make excuses for it and to continue to accept it makes him culpable.

As I said before real men are not tested by the easy times.

[nadecir]

This is just one of those things that's easier said than done. We can sit here and call for people we've never met to just up and quit. But it's not that simple for them. For them, the comfort of having a job may outweigh the disappointment of getting overruled on a few decisions. Heck, I'd probably be in the same boat. If I were in charge of the draft, and Angelos burst in and said, "You can't take the high school SS, you have to take a college pitcher," I really don't think I'd be so insulted and outraged that I'd threaten to quit on the spot. More likely, I'd be like, "Well, that sucks," and then I'd regroup and pick the best college pitcher I could find.

Then again, maybe I'm just a wimp. :D
Yes, maybe a decision or two being overruled after a reasonable opportunity to discuss and change Angelos' mind would be acceptable.

Having Angelos dictate draft picks at the last moment is only one thing. Rumors of other Angelos' interference abound. Things like his free agent signings without letting anyone else know, the rumors of his demand that Denny Bautista be traded, and his quashing of other trades.

One of the reasons Angelos does these things again and again is because of the passive people who work under him. And he can make it even easier for him to do by hiring cronies who only say yes to him. Perhaps this is a reason we ended up with Sammy Sosa last year. Angelos wanted him, and nobody said "Peter, have you looked at his statistics over the last three years?"

When does a reasonable person say "enough is enough" with interference from their boss? When Angelos calls up the manager and dictates a change in starting pitcher an hour before the game? Most of us would draw the line somewhere. A principled leader just makes his stand earlier.

Maybe its me, but I would hope that someone in the Oriole organization under the Angelos' tenure actually stood up to him. If so, I salute that nameless person.

One thing is for sure - Angelos doesn't seem to have learned his lesson about interfering in baseball decisions yet. Hopefully he will learn someday.