Orioles Interested In Ryan Shealy

[rolliefingers]

I was all for Shealy as well as long as he could play a decent 1B. We don't need another DH type unless they unload Javy but someone who can hit and play better D than Millah would be a God send.Hey, God willing, Javy, Millar and Conine will not be here next year, so we're going to need a few younger guys like that who can put up a respectable OPS, and Shealy fits the bill. Even if he turns out to be only a DH, the man can hit. I was for signing Durazo as well, for the same reason.

[geschinger]

If the Orioles are as high on Olson as has been indicated then it is wise not to move him for Shealy. At his age and with his numbers he'd be a guy I'd like to have but not at the expense of someone the organization thinks is among the very best of their prospects. Despite the popular notion on these boards the fact of the matter is a team can never have too much pitching and the Orioles are nowhere near deep enough to give up they guys the they consider to be among the best prospects in the organization.

Now if the org doesn't grade out Olson as high as has been indicated then maybe it's a deal that makes sense.

[Rockbird]

Does not appear this is going to happen at this time....

Well that sucks. Another blown opportunity in a growing list for the FO.

[vab]

Well that sucks. Another blown opportunity in a growing list for the FO.


I don't know if we can blame the front office for this one since it could very well be the Rockies who aren't ready to move. I mean, if they're looking at a pitching prospect as opposed to someone who could help them now, there's no rush for them and what if a contender comes up with an injury at 1st between now and the deadline and needs immediate help? They could get a lot better offer for Shealy than they are now. It's a bit frustrating that the deal probably won't go down soon but I don't think it's dead by any means.

[RShack]

Well, it "looks this way" and then it "looks that way"... but nobody said that GM's were yelling at each other and slamming phones down... so, we might wanna consider waiting to see what happens... things do change, after all... how many people even thought this was a "maybe" before Friday? Now people are bummed that it didn't get done? We don't even know exactly what they were saying to each other.

[hoosiers]

If the Orioles are as high on Olson as has been indicated then it is wise not to move him for Shealy.

This sums it up for me. We've received tremendous reports on Olson so I am skeptical we want to give him up for Shealy.

[wildcard]

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the Rockies were holding out for a Loewen, Penn type pitcher from the O's or Jays or whoever.

[Flosman]

Anyone think the start by Olsen after the promotion might have put the brakes on this deal. Maybe the other prospect is a no-go for the O's and the Rox want to see atleast a decent outing at the higher level.

[Trapt_Kakashi]

Does not appear this is going to happen at this time....
Well, I can't say that this isn't a surprise. This isn't to the same level as Burnett last year, but it's a bit disappointing. Hopefully Shealy won't be dealt into our division...except to us.

[bigbird]

Well, I can't say that this isn't a surprise. This isn't to the same level as Burnett last year, but it's a bit disappointing. Hopefully Shealy won't be dealt into our division...except to us.

Could it be we're looking for better than Shealy????

[Sports Guy]

Could it be we're looking for better than Shealy????
Yea it could be they should get Shealy for DH if nothing else.

Now, as i said originally and gesch has reiterated, if the Orioles feel that Olson is just the better player, i respect that decision to not pull the trigger.

However, they should be trying to work something out....Can't imagine the Rockies turn down Liz or turn down JJ Johnson and Finch.

[Trapt_Kakashi]

Could it be we're looking for better than Shealy????
Do you know something that we don't know? Come on, you can tell us.

[El Gordo]

Do you know something that we don't know? Come on, you can tell us.
I smell a move involving Roddy for a bat but what bat? Someone mentioned Broussard from Cleaveland on another thread. What about the Mets? They have a surplus of young OF. Diaz or Nady?:confused:

[RShack]

Could it be we're looking for better than Shealy????
OK, Mystery Man, I'll play along...

Who do you have in mind who's better?

Also, do you have any objection to distinguishing between your personal opinion and what you pass along from whoever-it-is?

[Cokeman]

OK, Mystery Man, I'll play along...

Who do you have in mind who's better?

Also, do you have any objection to distinguishing between your personal opinion and what you pass along from whoever-it-is?

I could be wrong, but I think all the "????" are really a question mark, wink, wink.

[Sports Guy]

OK, Mystery Man, I'll play along...

Who do you have in mind who's better?

Also, do you have any objection to distinguishing between your personal opinion and what you pass along from whoever-it-is?


I do not think BB should have to qualify every post he makes....He is also very open to when he is getting info from his guy and when he isn't.

[RShack]

I do not think BB should have to qualify every post he makes....He is also very open to when he is getting info from his guy and when he isn't.
I'm just looking for some way to tell, that's all.

Are you saying that *unless* BB mentions that it's news from his source, we should assume he's giving his personal opinion?

If that's a good way to tell, that's fine with me...

[Sports Guy]

I'm just looking for some way to tell, that's all.

Are you saying that *unless* BB mentions that it's news from his source, we should assume he's giving his personal opinion?

If that's a good way to tell, that's fine with me...
Yea, i think that is safe to say.

And, even if you feel he is hinting at something but not saying it, chances are it is not something he is "allowed" to post, so even if it isn't his opinion, you will never hear anything beyond that anyway.

[RShack]

Yea, i think that is safe to say.
OK, that's fine... thanks...


And, even if you feel he is hinting at something but not saying it, chances are it is not something he is "allowed" to post, so even if it isn't his opinion, you will never hear anything beyond that anyway.
You think he can't say "One guy they wonder about, and would maybe like to have, is [whoever]"?

(I don't have any tea leaves. Where's my Ouija Board?)

[Flosman]

Well I will throw my wild speculation into the ring. Shealy is not needed because the Angels story might just have legs. We know there was a meeting with Miggy and management in the last few days and the Angels owner is saying get it done. If you are getting Kotchman back there is no need for shealy. Not even at DH as you already have Gibbons. If you add the young weaver or Santana to our stable of arms we a really in great shape after the trade. Wood is going to be a true superstar and is very close now. I might even bring him right up if a trade is made. there were several on the board that were saying he was putting up number not quite up to the past few years. 950+ ops Hr every 18 ab and an amazing EBH every 6 ab. he does strike out alot but has a 370 obp.

[RShack]

We know there was a meeting with Miggy and management in the last few days ...
You could be right. Another possible explanation is that they are doing what they should have been doing all along: Treating Miggy like a team leader and most valuable player and franchise cornerstone... and asking his opinion, and keeping him in the loop so he doesn't get all PO'd like he did last winter. (I don't actually know anything, I am just speculating with you.)

[djp200]

Wood is not close to being ready for the big leagues. His k rate is out of control. He's striking out once every 3 AB's at AA. It'd be even worse in the majors. Think Russell Branyan only smaller and at SS. But even Branyan walked more than Wood in the minors. Quite frankly, I think Wood is overhyped. I'd much rather the O's end up with Kendrick, Aybar and Kotchman.

[RShack]

When was there a meeting with Miggy and management?
IIRC, he ate dinner with the FO guys and Sam the other night.

[TyCobb]

Hey anyone think that Rodrigo Lopez for Shealy is going to happen?

[Sports Guy]

Now we know why Shealy is not an Oriole......The Rockies want Hayden Penn for him....LOL...Good luck moving him.

http://www.denverpost.com/rockies/ci_3977356

[vab]

Now we know why Shealy is not an Oriole......The Rockies want Hayden Penn for him....LOL...Good luck moving him.

http://www.denverpost.com/rockies/ci_3977356


Yeah, that's a deal-breaker unless they want to expand it. No 27 year old minor leaguer is worth Penn.

[mweb]

Now we know why Shealy is not an Oriole......The Rockies want Hayden Penn for him....LOL...Good luck moving him.

http://www.denverpost.com/rockies/ci_3977356

Well if we're to go by BB source, this would suggest Penn was the other Oriole along with Olson they'd be willing to trade Shealy for.

[Sports Guy]

Well if we're to go by BB source, this would suggest Penn was the other Oriole along with Olson .they'd be willing to trade Shealy for.

Yea..So the Rockies hold Olson in a higher regard than Loewen or Liz, at least so it seems.

[NoVaO]

Well if we're to go by BB source, this would suggest Penn was the other Oriole along with Olson .they'd be willing to trade Shealy for.

Do we have to insist they take Javy? They want a minor league pitcher, so we counter with Javy, an old about-to-be-free-agent catcher. We can't compromise and have them take Olson. If that deal was rejected by the Rockies, fine. But it doesn't seem like we want to give up any of our minor league pitchers.

[Sports Guy]

Do we have to insist they take Javy? They want a minor league pitcher, so we counter with Javy, an old about-to-be-free-agent catcher. We can't compromise and have them take Olson. If that deal was rejected by the Rockies, fine. But it doesn't seem like we want to give up any of our minor league pitchers.

Hard to believe that they would turn down Javy, JJ Johnson and a guy like Finch or even Hawkins or Williams for Shealy.

[RZNJ]

Now we know why Shealy is not an Oriole......The Rockies want Hayden Penn for him....LOL...Good luck moving him.

http://www.denverpost.com/rockies/ci_3977356

So did the Rockies ask for Penn or Olson or did they ask for Penn and the O's countered with Olson?

[RZNJ]

Hard to believe that they would turn down Javy, JJ Johnson and a guy like Finch or even Hawkins or Williams for Shealy.


Believe it. You probably wouldn't want that deal if you were them. They want young quality, not old quantity.

[mweb]

Hard to believe that they would turn down Javy, JJ Johnson and a guy like Finch or even Hawkins or Williams for Shealy.

Well if they literally have no interest in Javy, which is what has been said in the papers and by BB, it's not hard to believe.

[NoVaO]

Hard to believe that they would turn down Javy, JJ Johnson and a guy like Finch or even Hawkins or Williams for Shealy.

But is that what we offered or are we just insisting they take Javy. It doesn't seem like they want to trade any of our top pitching prospects.

[mweb]

So did the Rockies ask for Penn or Olson or did they ask for Penn and the O's countered with Olson?

Well again, if we go by what BB said, it seems that either of those pitchers would have gotten it done.

[RZNJ]

Well again, if we go by what BB said, it seems that either of those pitchers would have gotten it done.


Kind of makes me wonder if Olson is really THAT good.

[Sports Guy]

Believe it. You probably wouldn't want that deal if you were them. They want young quality, not old quantity.

Yea, i didn't word that properly...I guess i am still looking at it from a perspective that the Rockies should be trying to win, which i guess they aren't.

But if they think they are getting cheap, young top young pitching rpospect for Shealy they are fooling themselves.

Remember, the article said the Rockies identified 2 players they would do 1 for 1 swaps with...It appears Penn and Olson are those 2 pitchers.

[mweb]

Kind of makes me wonder if Olson is really THAT good.

Maybe he is, most of us haven't even seen the guy pitch. Obviously there are very differing opinions on him, which isn't that surprising. I'm sure if all the GM's had their choice of our top 2 pitching prospects in a trade, we'd see a lot of different combo's involving Penn, Loewen, Erbe, Liz, and Olson. It's important for our front office to decide who they think is the best and keep them, and trade the ones they aren't as high on.

[mweb]

Yea, i didn't word that properly...I guess i am still looking at it from a perspective that the Rockies should be trying to win, which i guess they aren't.

But if they think they are getting cheap, young top young pitching rpospect for Shealy they are fooling themselves.

Remember, the article said the Rockies identified 2 players they would do 1 for 1 swaps with...It appears Penn and Olson are those 2 pitchers.

I don't see how they're fooling themselves. Many of us on here including you thought Olson for Shealy was a pretty fair trade.

[Sports Guy]

Maybe he is, most of us haven't even seen the guy pitch. Obviously there are very differing opinions on him, which isn't that surprising. I'm sure if all the GM's had their choice of our top 2 pitching prospects in a trade, we'd see a lot of different combo's involving Penn, Loewen, Erbe, Liz, and Olson. It's important for our front office to decide who they think is the best and keep them, and trade the ones they aren't as high on.

NoVaO brings up a good point...Are they too high on all of them...Too high to the point where they don't pull the trigger on a deal?

We know they have said they would trade young pitching but they haven't proven it yet.

Gotta wonder if this starts to become a Stoneman type situation.

[Sports Guy]

I don't see how they're fooling themselves. Many of us on here including you thought Olson for Shealy was a pretty fair trade.


I just don't Olson in that upper echelon prospect status yet, although i do think he could be.

To me, Loewen and Penn are amongst the top 20-25 pitching prospects in baseball...Olson is more like top 50.

But, i will concede to you your point that many GM's could look at our "big 6" and slot them several different ways.

[Greg Pappas]

For those who are interested, here is B.A.'s preseason take on Shealy (Rox #9 Ranked prospect):


RYAN SHEALY, 1b Born: August 29, 1979 B-T: R-R Ht: 6-5 Wt: 240
Drafted: Florida, 2002 (11th round) Signed by: Mike Day



Background: The Rockies took Shealy in the fifth round out of high school in 1998 but didn’t sign him until drafting him again as a college senior. He won two home run titles in his first three pro seasons and would have challenged for the Triple-A Pacific Coast League crown in 2005 if not for his big league time.


Strengths:
Shealy has tremendous strength and makes pitchers pay if they miss on the inner third of the plate. He has the patience to work counts and is comfortable hitting the ball the other way. He has soft hands and has improved at first base.

Weaknesses:
The last job for Shealy is to turn on pitches more regularly. Though he’s a big man with limited range and speed, he has lost 30 pounds since spring training in 2005. Blocked at first base by Todd Helton, he hopes his work on conditioning and agility will make him an option as a corner outfielder.

The Future:
Coming off an inspiring showing with the Rockies, Shealy has earned a spot on the roster. Finding regular playing time will be a bigger challenge.

[mweb]

I just don't Olson in that upper echelon prospect status yet, although i do think he could be.

To me, Loewen and Penn are amongst the top 20-25 pitching prospects in baseball...Olson is more like top 50.

But, i will concede to you your point that many GM's could look at our "big 6" and slot them several different ways.

But if the Rockies asked for Olson, how are they fooling themselves?

[NoVaO]

Maybe he is, most of us haven't even seen the guy pitch. Obviously there are very differing opinions on him, which isn't that surprising. I'm sure if all the GM's had their choice of our top 2 pitching prospects in a trade, we'd see a lot of different combo's involving Penn, Loewen, Erbe, Liz, and Olson. It's important for our front office to decide who they think is the best and keep them, and trade the ones they aren't as high on.

Exactly. Identify who is most likely to succeed and who is most likely to fail, and trade the ones you believe are more likely to fail while their value is high.

[Sports Guy]

But if the Rockies asked for Olson, how are they fooling themselves?


I guess they aren't in terms of Olson but they are in terms of Penn.

[RZNJ]

Or if Penn is really THAT good?


That's another way to look at it. But if it's the Orioles who are unwilling to part with either I think it's probably more that they think they are both THAT good. :)

[66-70-83-??]

I wouldn't deal Olson or Penn for Shealy. I believe Olson will be the best of the three (Olson/Penn/Loewen).

But, I would do Loewen for him.

The Orioles should counter-offer with Loewen for Shealy and _____?____.

Of course, that is assuming the Rockies still believe Loewen's performance will eventually match his hype/draft status.

[markpolis]

I wouldn't deal Olson or Penn for Shealy. I believe Olson will be the best of the three (Olson/Penn/Loewen).

But, I would do Loewen for him.

The Orioles should counter-offer with Loewen for Shealy and _____?____.

Of course, that is assuming the Rockies still believe Loewen's performance will eventually match his hype/draft status.

Loewen for Shealy? Really? All I can say is WOW.

[66-70-83-??]

Loewen for Shealy? Really? All I can say is WOW.

Well, I didn't actually say Loewen for Shealy, did I.

I thought I said Shealy and ________ (another player).

All I can say is WOW- maybe someday I will be as good a judge of talent as you are and as respectful of others opinions. :rolleyes:

I am obviously not there yet. Hey, maybe you can tell from Southern Cal that he is the next Koufax. After all he IS a 1st round draft pick and they always pan out. :rolleyes:

I am a little less skilled- I have to physically watch players over and over again (mostly in person) to form my uneducated opinions. :rolleyes:

What are you backing up your high-and-mighty opinion on ?

His dominance in Rookie A ball at Aberdeen ?

Or his two year career at A ball in Frederick/Delmarva ?

[TonySoprano]

I am a little less skilled- I have to physically watch players over and over again (mostly in person) to form my uneducated opinions. :rolleyes:
Can we then assume you've seen Shealy "over and over again (mostly in person) " to assess his trade value?

[Mackus]

Well, I didn't actually say Loewen for Shealy, did I.

I thought I said Shealy and ________ (another player).

All I can say is WOW- maybe someday I will be as good a judge of talent as you are and as respectful of others opinions. :rolleyes:

I am obviously not there yet. Hey, maybe you can tell from Southern Cal that he is the next Koufax. After all he IS a 1st round draft pick and they always pan out. :rolleyes:

I am a little less skilled- I have to physically watch players over and over again (mostly in person) to form my uneducated opinions. :rolleyes:

What are you backing up your high-and-mighty opinion on ?

His dominance in Rookie A ball at Aberdeen ?

Or his two year career at A ball in Frederick/Delmarva ?
I think this post is a huge overreation.

Trading our 2nd or 3rd best prospect for a 27 y/o AAA player is a very bold statement. You should have to defend an opinion like that with more than just character attacks on another poster who did nothing to attack you at all.

[66-70-83-??]

Can we then assume you've seen Shealy "over and over again (mostly in person) " to assess his trade value?

Yes you can assume that, but it would be a wrong assumption.

I may have come on a little strong in that post, but I felt that I was being ridiculed for my opinion, which was taken a little out of context anyway. I apologize.

You make a good point. I haven't seen Shealy play.

But, I have seen Loewen a bunch of times.

Shealy may not be the best prospect in baseball but if you compare the two players stats- one player has progress one level each year based on merit (Shealy) while the other one was stuck for two years in A ball and still hasn't gotten very good results.

So based on actual results over three years- (hype aside) why is it such an awful idea ?

[TonySoprano]

Nice response 66.

My question had been rhetorical to make a point.

[66-70-83-??]

I think this post is a huge overreation.

Trading our 2nd or 3rd best prospect for a 27 y/o AAA player is a very bold statement. You should have to defend an opinion like that with more than just character attacks on another poster who did nothing to attack you at all.

I agree that I overreacted and addressed it already.

I also offered an explanation of why trading Loewen (whether he is our 2nd 3rd or 100th best prospect is a matter of opinion, not fact) for a hitter that has progressed very well every year (and didn't I say for Loewen AND another player) is not a crazy idea, in my opinion.

But, overreacting with sarcasm is NOT a "character attack" in any way shape or form.

[bigloe]

Shealy may not be the best prospect in baseball but if you compare the two players stats- one player has progress one level each year based on merit (Shealy) while the other one was stuck for two years in A ball and still hasn't gotten very good results.

So based on actual results over three years- (hype aside) why is it such an awful idea ?

Shealy was drafted as a college Sr and should have advanced thru the minors at a quicker pace. Loewen was drafted from high school and had 1 year of JuCo of experience. Besides being less developed and getting injuried early in minor league career (and being shut down for awhile), he has moved thru the minors with improved sucess at each stop.
Shealy has put up good #'s in the minors, but has he realy improved? As for Loewen, give him time and he may just develop into the best pitcher the Orioles have on their roster in a few years.

[AgentOrange]

Shealy was drafted as a college Sr and should have advanced thru the minors at a quicker pace. Loewen was drafted from high school and had 1 year of JuCo of experience. Besides being less developed and getting injuried early in minor league career (and being shut down for awhile), he has moved thru the minors with improved sucess at each stop.
Shealy has put up good #'s in the minors, but has he realy improved? As for Loewen, give him time and he may just develop into the best pitcher the Orioles have on their roster in a few years.


Is everyone still blind to the fact that we have a big strength and big weakness in our farm system?

We all know what they are. Sometimes you have to make deals to better the ball club. Pitching is coveted more than hitting, this we all agree on. Yet, when you look at the current state of the club and look at what our farm system can do to supplement that, you should see that we have about 3-4 pitchers in the next 2-3 years that can come in and fill holes that are made in the rotation, if any.

What we keep seeing time and time again are stop gap type players at 2 important offensive positions. Corner OF and 1B. This guy could be one of those players that could solve one of them, cheaply, for the next 3-5 years...

A lot of people look at his age as a question mark. Well considering he plays in the NL and has Helton in front of him, I see that being an answer to the question mark. We have all seen his numbers (minor league) that have stacked up to both good and not so good ML players, and he comes out very favorably. I could understand being a little gun shy, but I truly feel we are over valuing our talent in the minors right now and we need to do something to improve the club, this moves could very well be one of them.

[bigloe]

I do agree with you AgentOrange, that we need to trade from our surplus of pitching prospects. I just think Loewen for Shealy isn't the deal. I think the fact Shealy being 26/27?, he could be had for a lesser quality prospect then Loewen.

[badboydrake]

I do agree with you AgentOrange, that we need to trade from our surplus of pitching prospects. I just think Loewen for Shealy isn't the deal. I think the fact Shealy being 26/27?, he could be had for a lesser quality prospect then Loewen.

I agree, if Shealy was let's say 2-3 years younger(22-24) I think the O's make that trade yesterday.

[AgentOrange]

I do agree with you AgentOrange, that we need to trade from our surplus of pitching prospects. I just think Loewen for Shealy isn't the deal. I think the fact Shealy being 26/27?, he could be had for a lesser quality prospect then Loewen.


Sorry if you think I was singling you out. I was just stating that a lot of our posters on here are too gun shy about making deals. It almost seems that if the deal is not heavily in our favor, we find reasons to not make it.

I really don't care how old the guy is. He has raked in the minors and he is held up from Helton and the fact the NL doesn't have a DH. This is a great case for us to get a steal of a prospect that could project .800-.850 OPS right now in the majors.

Does anyone realize how BIG of an upgrade that would be for us right now?

[markpolis]

Well, I didn't actually say Loewen for Shealy, did I.


But, I would do Loewen for him.

Ah, yes you did.

My point is that if you are going to trade Loewen you should package him and get a heck of a lot more than a 26year old AAAA DH type player. Trading one of our better pitching prospects for the Ryan Shealy's of the world is not the answer.

[davearm]

I do agree with you AgentOrange, that we need to trade from our surplus of pitching prospects. I just think Loewen for Shealy isn't the deal. I think the fact Shealy being 26/27?, he could be had for a lesser quality prospect then Loewen.
But what if he can't be had for that lesser quality prospect?

Do you refuse to make a trade that (IMO) will significantly improve the O's, both now and for years into the future, just because you think the price ought to be a couple ticks lower?

Everybody realizes that 1B and cleanup are glaring weaknesses on the O's. This guy has raked his whole career -- he's being compared to guys like Travis Hafner and Ryan Howard for goodness sakes! Dealing one from your surplus of young arms for a potential centerpiece hitter that you'd control for years seems to me like a no-brainer.

IMO it'd be a huge mistake to risk missing out on this opportunity by trying to squeeze the Rox to drop the price a few pennies.

[Sports Guy]

But what if he can't be had for that lesser quality prospect?

Do you refuse to make a trade that (IMO) will significantly improve the O's, both now and for years into the future, just because you think the price ought to be a couple ticks lower?

Everybody realizes that 1B and cleanup are glaring weaknesses on the O's. This guy has raked his whole career -- he's being compared to guys like Travis Hafner and Ryan Howard for goodness sakes! Dealing one from your surplus of young arms for a potential centerpiece hitter that you'd control for years seems to me like a no-brainer.

IMO it'd be a huge mistake to risk missing out on this opportunity by trying to squeeze the Rox to drop the price a few pennies.
Would you trade Sean Marshall for him if you didn't have DLee?

[AgentOrange]

Well, I didn't actually say Loewen for Shealy, did I.



Ah, yes you did.

My point is that if you are going to trade Loewen you should package him and get a heck of a lot more than a 26year old AAAA DH type player. Trading one of our better pitching prospects for the Ryan Shealy's of the world is not the answer.


I don't understand, what makes you think he is a AAAA type hitter?

It is his age?

[davearm]

Well, I didn't actually say Loewen for Shealy, did I.



Ah, yes you did.

My point is that if you are going to trade Loewen you should package him and get a heck of a lot more than a 26year old AAAA DH type player. Trading one of our better pitching prospects for the Ryan Shealy's of the world is not the answer.
Well, for starters, an AAAA player would be a guy that's torn up the minors but flopped in the bigs. With Shealy I can certainly see the torn up the minors part, but I must've missed where he flopped in the bigs, because the numbers I'm looking at from his '05 callup are pretty darn impressive.

And I'm not seeing how a "DH type player" that hits a ton is a bad thing to have. Not that Shealy is strictly a DH... reports are that he plays a pretty good 1B.

[davearm]

Would you trade Sean Marshall for him if you didn't have DLee?
Yep.

We've got other guys that can do what Marshall does.

Just like you've got other guys that can do what Loewen/Olson do.

You've got nobody that can do what Shealy can do.

[Moose Milligan]

My point is that if you are going to trade Loewen you should package him and get a heck of a lot more than a 26year old AAAA DH type player. Trading one of our better pitching prospects for the Ryan Shealy's of the world is not the answer.

He's an Orioles pitching prospect. Don't get your hopes up ;)

[DrungoHazewood]

So based on actual results over three years- (hype aside) why is it such an awful idea ?

Because Loewen is 22 and Shealy is 26? Chances are Loewen still has 4-5 years of improvement left in him, while Shealy is pretty close to being as good as he'll ever be. Loewen's upside is a #1 or #2 starter in the majors. Shealy looks a lot like his upside is league-average DH, with a chance at a being a bit better for a few years. Suck the high-altitude and hitter's league air out of his minor league numbers and he's an old prospect with a likely .800-ish OPS.

Remember, not only is Shealy 26, but he has old player's skills. Guys who already have power and plate discipline but lack speed and athleticism in their early 20s tend to age poorly, since they already have an abundance of the things that theoretically could improve as they move into their 30s.

[davearm]

Because Loewen is 22 and Shealy is 26? Chances are Loewen still has 4-5 years of improvement left in him, while Shealy is pretty close to being as good as he'll ever be. Loewen's upside is a #1 or #2 starter in the majors. Shealy looks a lot like his upside is league-average DH, with a chance at a being a bit better for a few years. Suck the high-altitude and hitter's league air out of his minor league numbers and he's an old prospect with a likely .800-ish OPS.

Remember, not only is Shealy 26, but he has old player's skills. Guys who already have power and plate discipline but lack speed and athleticism in their early 20s tend to age poorly, since they already have an abundance of the things that theoretically could improve as they move into their 30s.
That's his *upside*? I thought upside was synonymous with best-case scenario.

Shealy's best-case scenario is a guy that will hit 40+ HRs and carry a 1.000 OPS, and play fair-to-good D at first.

[Crazy O]

That's his *upside*? I thought upside was synonymous with best-case scenario.

Shealy's best-case scenario is a guy that will hit 40+ HRs and carry a 1.000 OPS, and play fair-to-good D at first.
No, that's my upside. :D

[66-70-83-??]

Well, I didn't actually say Loewen for Shealy, did I.



Ah, yes you did.

My point is that if you are going to trade Loewen you should package him and get a heck of a lot more than a 26year old AAAA DH type player. Trading one of our better pitching prospects for the Ryan Shealy's of the world is not the answer.

Ah, funny how you left out what came right after that.

The Orioles should counter-offer with Loewen for Shealy and _____?____.

What makes you think Loewen's value is that high around MLB ?

I have seen them all pitch and I value Olson and Penn over Loewen.

[Sports Guy]

Ah, funny how you left out what came right after that.

The Orioles should counter-offer with Loewen for Shealy and _____?____.

What makes you think Loewen's value is that high around MLB ?
I have seen them all pitch and I value Olson and Penn over Loewen.
Most publications had Loewen as a top 30-50 prospect in all of baseball this year.

So, unless the teams see something that these guys don't(which i doubt), i would say his value is very high.

[66-70-83-??]

Because Loewen is 22 and Shealy is 26? Chances are Loewen still has 4-5 years of improvement left in him, while Shealy is pretty close to being as good as he'll ever be.

Based on what ? :confused:

Howard (same age as Shealy) minors- .299/.384/.547/.931
Shealy = .324/.417/594/1011

Derek Lee is still getting better in his early 30's
Konerko started getting better in his late 20's
Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, etc....

There are tons of guys (like the above 1B's) that continue to get better.
Shealy is just hitting his prime.

Yes- it would be great to get a 20 yr old (Miguel Cabrera type) but be realistic.

Likewise- there are NO guarantees that Loewen will improve.

[mikezpen]

Who's to say that Adam Loewen will improve that much just because he's 22? I see very little improvement in his control in the 3 or so years he's been a pro. He averaged over 5 walks a game in the 2005 AFL and about 5 this year at Bowie. In Baltimore it was around 6. If he doesn't improve dramatically in command/control, he'll never make the Majors.He won't even be a #5 much less a #1 or 2.Maybe you don't want to trade him for Shealy; maybe you do. But if anybody will take Adam Loewen and offer us something we really need, you'd better wipe the stardust out of your eyes and look at that deal real hard.

Shealy's been in triple-A for 2 years now. Is that because he's not that good or because he's buried behind Todd Helton? Whose to say he couldn't have made it up here 2 or 3 years ago with another team-like the ORIOLES for example?

[Moose Milligan]

Who's to say that Adam Loewen will improve that much just because he's 22? I see very little improvement in his control in the 3 or so years he's been a pro. He averaged over 5 walks a game in the 2005 AFL and about 5 this year at Bowie. In Baltimore it was around 6. If he doesn't improve dramatically in command/control, he'll never make the Majors.He won't even be a #5 much less a #1 or 2.Maybe you don't want to trade him for Shealy; maybe you do. But if anybody will take Adam Loewen and offer us something we really need, you'd better wipe the stardust out of your eyes and look at that deal real hard.

Shealy's been in triple-A for 2 years now. Is that because he's not that good or because he's buried behind Todd Helton? Whose to say he couldn't have made it up here 2 or 3 years ago with another team-like the ORIOLES for example?

Well said.

[NJOriolesFan]

I would try to do the deal keeping Loewen and Penn out of it. I have to believe (and maybe wrongly so) that Bedard and Cabrera are better and more likely to reach their potential than Loewen and Penn and that Loewen and Penn (ranked as our top 10 pitching prospects) are more likely to "make it" than Olson, Johnson, Liz or Erbe.

We currently need and will need in future years 5 starters. I would hold on to our best 5 young ones (Bedard, Cabrera, Penn and Loewen) and trade any one of the other four for Shealy. Let them pick. We still have 3 guys who can battle it out to emerge as our #5 starter and if that doesn't pan out, the money we are saving by having Shealy as our 1st baseman can be spent on a $12 million ace starter if we are desparate for a 5th guy.

Yes I know, we can't even be certain that we have even one good starting pitcher but at least we do know that we have Kris Benson and no fewer than 8 candidates to compete for rotation spots in 2007 and/or 2008. There are differing opinions on the rankings of Olson, Johnson, Liz and Erbe. Ask any FO memebr, scout, fan, etc. and they will all give you a different 1-4 of those 4 guys. The guy we trade away won't bite us in the ass because the chance of a guy putting up stellar picthing numbers in Colorado is next to nill.

Trade Olson for Shealy and be done with it. It also gives us more flexibility in what we need to ask for with Lopez and Lopez. It is no longer a requirement that we get a 1b. We could trade Lopez and Lopez for Olson's equivalent replacement.

Shealy has already succeeded in a limited amount of time in the bigs. Olson could become Rocky Coppinger or Matt Riley or Kurt Ainsworth or Denny Bautista.

[DrungoHazewood]

Based on what ? :confused:

Howard (same age as Shealy) minors- .299/.384/.547/.931
Shealy = .324/.417/594/1011

There's a world of difference between Scranton and Colorado Springs.


Derek Lee is still getting better in his early 30's
Konerko started getting better in his late 20's
Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, etc....

There are tons of guys (like the above 1B's) that continue to get better.
Shealy is just hitting his prime.

Yes- it would be great to get a 20 yr old (Miguel Cabrera type) but be realistic.

Likewise- there are NO guarantees that Loewen will improve.

Yes, Shealy could get better, but chances are he'll be like most players and peak at 27. And like most players with old player skills he'll be likely to age poorly. He could buck trends. But chances are he won't.

[DrungoHazewood]

That's his *upside*? I thought upside was synonymous with best-case scenario.

Shealy's best-case scenario is a guy that will hit 40+ HRs and carry a 1.000 OPS, and play fair-to-good D at first.

I was using upside to mean realistic best-case scenerio. For Shealy, at sea level, I'd peg that as a few years in a .900 OPS range. His 50% PECOTA is an .864 OPS in Denver. At OPACY that's maybe an .800. I can believe .900, but for a .800 OPS guy to develop into a 1.000 OPS guy would be a rather extraordinary jump.

[ATO UMD]

What about the mantra "There is No Such Thing as a Pitching Prospect"? If we're talking about quality arms, we have plenty of those and should deal one to get a quality bat at 1B, which we sorely need.

Also, ESPN had an article up a couple days ago (I couldn't read it because it was for Insiders) about how Coors isn't playing like the insanely hitter-friendly park this year. I think they started treating the balls before games or something. Does anybody know if the same thing applies for the AAA park Shealy plays in?

[DrungoHazewood]

What about the mantra "There is No Such Thing as a Pitching Prospect"? If we're talking about quality arms, we have plenty of those and should deal one to get a quality bat at 1B, which we sorely need.

Also, ESPN had an article up a couple days ago (I couldn't read it because it was for Insiders) about how Coors isn't playing like the insanely hitter-friendly park this year. I think they started treating the balls before games or something. Does anybody know if the same thing applies for the AAA park Shealy plays in?

It's all about the market. Most teams don't yet believe in TNSTAAPP, so a guy like Loewen should have significant value. I tend to think he has quite a bit more value than a 26-year-old DH/1B who's still in AAA. I fully agree that the O's should be shopping young pitchers for young hitters. I just don't like this deal. I think if you're going to trade a top-50 prospect like Loewen you need to get a younger, more projectable prospect in return.

Don't know if Colorado Springs has been using the same humidor that they use in Denver. That's an interesting question that might have a significant impact on Shealy's value.

[twoBshorty]

The question about the Orioles overvaluing their prospects is a valid one, IMO. I have gotten the impression from other teams' boards that we have something of a Tampa reputation in that department: demanding the moon and then stalling and then the deal falls apart. Hayden Penn has been called a B-level prospect on more than one occasion. It does make you wonder.

[ATO UMD]

http://www.angelfire.com/nb/jms/milb/ColPCL.html#Ryan+Shealy

These split stats provided earlier in the thread say the AAA team probably doesn't have such a humidor. While Shealy still puts up a .926 OPS on the road, his homerun production falls from 8 to 4 in 87 and 72 at-bats respectively. It should be noted though that he has been hitting .264 at home and .306 on the road.

[Sports Guy]

The bottom line is Loewen is worth more than Shealy.

No one is saying not to trade Loewen, just not Loewen for Shealy.

[ATO UMD]

The question about the Orioles overvaluing their prospects is a valid one, IMO. I have gotten the impression from other teams' boards that we have something of a Tampa reputation in that department: demanding the moon and then stalling and then the deal falls apart. Hayden Penn has been called a B-level prospect on more than one occasion. It does make you wonder.
Of all of our "prospects," Hayden Penn is the one I'd most want to keep because he's been pretty succesful at all of his minor league stops at a very young age. He was really pitching well in AAA this year before having to go under the knife. Penn is the only guy, maybe with the exception of Olson, who has truly lived up to his billing.

[RShack]

Don't know if Colorado Springs has been using the same humidor that they use in Denver. That's an interesting question that might have a significant impact on Shealy's value.
I don't know either. I know a guy who lived in Colorado Springs, and he says the weather there is *way* different than in Denver. I don't know if that means baseballs act differently there.

[mikezpen]

The bottom line is Loewen is worth more than Shealy.
No one is saying not to trade Loewen, just not Loewen for Shealy.

That could very well be. But I wish they'd go for a young first baseman with promise as a hitter, or a salary dump whose a hitter.And if it takes Loewen, so be it.The organization has zip-nada-at that position and they won't for literally years.

[El Gordo]

I don't know either. I know a guy who lived in Colorado Springs, and he says the weather there is *way* different than in Denver. I don't know if that means baseballs act differently there.
I've performed in both places and Colorado Springs is 7000 ft. compared to a mile at Denver. Believe me you can feel the difference when you try to breath. I imagine that the effect on a baseball is noticeable as well. At Denver, balls that looked like pop ups suddenly turned into home runs. Never saw a game in Colorado Springs

[delaware bird]

Olson could become Rocky Coppinger or Matt Riley or Kurt Ainsworth or Denny Bautista.

Not really sure what to make of this last sentence. You don't trade guys because they 'could' end up getting hurt or not performing.

You trade for need and you attempt to trade up in what the team considers value.

If you think Shealy now and projected into the future is worth more than Olson now and into the future, you try to pull the trigger.

That being said, 1B is probably the easiest position to fill. Pitchers, by nature, have more value. Olson is young (drafted just last year) and doing well. There is no way I include him in a package.

[Sports Guy]

That could very well be. But I wish they'd go for a young first baseman with promise as a hitter, or a salary dump whose a hitter.And if it takes Loewen, so be it.The organization has zip-nada-at that position and they won't for literally years.

I agree we need to acquire a young first baseman but i know i would deal Loewen for Kotchman way before i would for Shealy.

Kotchman is just a flat out better player in all facets except maybe homer power.

[66-70-83-??]

I agree we need to acquire a young first baseman but i know i would deal Loewen for Kotchman way before i would for Shealy.

Kotchman is just a flat out better player in all facets except maybe homer power.

Shealy is a better hitter period.

Kotchman is a better fielder. He is also three years younger.

But, I would rather have the other LAA 1B prospect: Morales.

We can debate players all day long, but it appears that there is a concensus that we need to trade some of our young pitching for the positional talent that we lack.

[Avsfan]

but it appears that there is a concensus that we need to trade some of our young pitching for the positional talent that we lack.

Just don't give them away...we've done such a good job, re-building our farm system, we need to make smart decisions to fill our weaknesses, or else it will be 1999 all over again.

[WhereisBoog]

I agree we need to acquire a young first baseman but i know i would deal Loewen for Kotchman way before i would for Shealy.

Kotchman is just a flat out better player in all facets except maybe homer power.

I'm not sure if that is true that Kotchman is flat out a better player than Shealy.

After Kotchman's OBP this year is .221 and his OPS .436. (Matos territory)

Comparing Kotchman with Shealy using Kotchman's AAA performance and Shealy's this year is interesting.

Kotchman (AAA last year) OBP .373 OPS .813
Shealy (AAA this year) OBP .357 OPS .950

Comparable with more power from Shealy. We need a bigger bat and Shealey could help provide that. It's possible both Kotchman and Shealy might not hit big league pitching as Kotchman is illustrating.

Would I trade Loewen for Shealey straight up? In a heartbeat. Would I trade Penn for Shealy? No way. Would I trade Olson for Shealy? Yes.

You have more beleif in Loewen's abilities than I do.

That said I'd take Kotchman if it was a part of deal with the Angels which included Santana, or Jered Weaver, and maybe Shields or Lackey, and someone like Aybar or Wood as a larger Tejada deal ,but i'm not sure that really is going to happen. Most likely the angels will go with someone cheaper like wilson especially with OCab hitting .302 and Aybar and Woods hitting very well at AAA and AA.

I think the Rockies represent a better trading possilbity.

[AgentOrange]

Just don't give them away...we've done such a good job, re-building our farm system, we need to make smart decisions to fill our weaknesses, or else it will be 1999 all over again.


Agreed.

But I hope you don't classify a Olson for Shealy move as one of those "give aways".

[Avsfan]

But I hope you don't classify a Olson for Shealy move as one of those "give aways".


I do...he's oldish...and playing in extreme batting league/conditions...that proves nothing to me.

[66-70-83-??]

I do...he's oldish...and playing in extreme batting league/conditions...that proves nothing to me.

Here are two opinions on Shealy.

First one is from John Sickels and the second one is from Baseball Prospectus.

Sickels:

Rating Ryan Shealy at B+ may seem controversial, but he is sort of the hitting version of Jon Papelbon, another guy I like more than some experts. Shealy can really hit, and what he did in the majors last year is not a fluke. The hard part is finding him a place to play in Colorado.

FWIW- Sickels rates Loewen as a B.



Here is what Baseball Prospectus says about him on their Pecota Card:
(FWIW: Some of the "comparable" players listed = D. Lee, Hafner, Sexson)

BP:

A born DH, Shealy's hit at every stop along the way, often to the extent where you say "How come they're leaving this dude in the Cal League? Do they want to destroy the confidence of opposing pitchers, or do they just want to dent the fences of some field in the Inland Empire?" Shealy's something of an ox-boy, but he plays the role well, swinging at pitches in the strike zone with seriously bad intentions. He draws his walks, gets his hits, and yes, strikes out a lot. Definitely has the masher look; when he hits the ball hard, he looks like a right-handed Travis Hafner, creating the image of a pitch just getting creamed.

Granted, as was pointed out, he is hitting in the PCL, but he still is a very good hitter. Good hitters hit in any environment in which they are placed.

[Sports Guy]

Shealy is a better hitter period.

Kotchman is a better fielder. He is also three years younger.

But, I would rather have the other LAA 1B prospect: Morales.

We can debate players all day long, but it appears that there is a concensus that we need to trade some of our young pitching for the positional talent that we lack.
Based on what? Take away the thin air and what is Shealy? We don't know yet...Kotchman had 900+ OPS's in the minors without that.

Plus he is younger, more in shape and a GG caliber defensive player.

[Sports Guy]

I'm not sure if that is true that Kotchman is flat out a better player than Shealy.

After Kotchman's OBP this year is .221 and his OPS .436. (Matos territory)

Comparing Kotchman with Shealy using Kotchman's AAA performance and Shealy's this year is interesting.

Kotchman (AAA last year) OBP .373 OPS .813
Shealy (AAA this year) OBP .357 OPS .950

Comparable with more power from Shealy. We need a bigger bat and Shealey could help provide that. It's possible both Kotchman and Shealy might not hit big league pitching as Kotchman is illustrating.

Would I trade Loewen for Shealey straight up? In a heartbeat. Would I trade Penn for Shealy? No way. Would I trade Olson for Shealy? Yes.

You have more beleif in Loewen's abilities than I do.

That said I'd take Kotchman if it was a part of deal with the Angels which included Santana, or Jered Weaver, and maybe Shields or Lackey, and someone like Aybar or Wood as a larger Tejada deal ,but i'm not sure that really is going to happen. Most likely the angels will go with someone cheaper like wilson especially with OCab hitting .302 and Aybar and Woods hitting very well at AAA and AA.

I think the Rockies represent a better trading possilbity.
So, you j ust choose to ignore the fact that he had mono all year?

[Sports Guy]

Granted, as was pointed out, he is hitting in the PCL, but he still is a very good hitter. Good hitters hit in any environment in which they are placed.
No one is saying he is not a good hitter...But we don't know how good he is or osn't because of the conditions he has played in.

If we got Shealy, i would hope he turns into another good hitting prospect who didn't get a chance until he was 26/27...Jason Lane and Lane's stats are good but not great.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/L/jason-lane.shtml

[davearm]

Based on what? Take away the thin air and what is Shealy? We don't know yet...Kotchman had 900+ OPS's in the minors without that.

Plus he is younger, more in shape and a GG caliber defensive player.
Salt Lake City is an extreme hitter's park too.

[Sports Guy]

Salt Lake City is an extreme hitter's park too.


I am aware of this...Kotchman has also been in hitters leagues but the thin air takes that to another level.

Long term, i will bet Kotchman is the better player and I would much rather trade Loewen for him, especially because of the age difference.

Only thing against Kotchman is he has some injury history.

[markpolis]

Only thing against Kotchman is he has some injury history.

So does Shealy. He was on the DL earlier this year with a sore elbow. The same elbow he had reconstructive surgery on while playing at the University of Florida. The Rockies tried to have Shealy play OF this spring because he is blocked by Helton, but Shealy injured his elbow and is limited to a 1B/DH role.

[66-70-83-??]

I am aware of this...Kotchman has also been in hitters leagues but the thin air takes that to another level.

Long term, i will bet Kotchman is the better player and I would much rather trade Loewen for him, especially because of the age difference.

Only thing against Kotchman is he has some injury history.

The point he was trying to make is that there is "thin air" in other PCL cities too.

Salt Lake City is a better hitters park than Colorado.

Best hitters parks in PCL (according to BP). They are all the cities located in higher elevations. What a coincidence. :D

1-Albuquerque
2-Tuscon
3-Salt Lake
4-Las Vegas
5-Colorado Springs

[DrungoHazewood]

I don't know either. I know a guy who lived in Colorado Springs, and he says the weather there is *way* different than in Denver. I don't know if that means baseballs act differently there.

The park effects in Colorado Springs have been somewhat less extreme than Denver. That's partially because the PCL is a better hitter's league than the NL, so Colorado Springs doesn't look as crazy compared to the higher-scoring places in that league. But it's still a very good place to hit.

But what we don't know is whether they store the baseballs in a humidor in Colorado Springs. In Denver they store all the baseballs in a high-humidity room for weeks before they're used to deaden them. They're all at the high end of the MLB weight spec. This has moved Coors from the most extreme hitting environment in more than a half-century to just a good hitters' park.

[Fan4Life]

I'm not sure if that is true that Kotchman is flat out a better player than Shealy.

After Kotchman's OBP this year is .221 and his OPS .436. (Matos territory)

Comparing Kotchman with Shealy using Kotchman's AAA performance and Shealy's this year is interesting.

Kotchman (AAA last year) OBP .373 OPS .813
Shealy (AAA this year) OBP .357 OPS .950

Comparable with more power from Shealy. We need a bigger bat and Shealey could help provide that. It's possible both Kotchman and Shealy might not hit big league pitching as Kotchman is illustrating.

Would I trade Loewen for Shealey straight up? In a heartbeat. Would I trade Penn for Shealy? No way. Would I trade Olson for Shealy? Yes.

You have more beleif in Loewen's abilities than I do.

That said I'd take Kotchman if it was a part of deal with the Angels which included Santana, or Jered Weaver, and maybe Shields or Lackey, and someone like Aybar or Wood as a larger Tejada deal ,but i'm not sure that really is going to happen. Most likely the angels will go with someone cheaper like wilson especially with OCab hitting .302 and Aybar and Woods hitting very well at AAA and AA.

I think the Rockies represent a better trading possilbity.

Why either / or.... lets get both of them... ;)

["Clank"]

No one is saying he is not a good hitter...But we don't know how good he is or osn't because of the conditions he has played in.

If we got Shealy, i would hope he turns into another good hitting prospect who didn't get a chance until he was 26/27...Jason Lane and Lane's stats are good but not great.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/L/jason-lane.shtml
If the two clubs have begun talks on Shealy, then let's stop screwing around and close the friggin' deal. How much thought does it take, are the Rockies asking for the moon? We need to generate a little excitment around here. Offer Loewen, then Loewen and Rleal, then say "fuggetabowdit".

[RZNJ]

Yep.

We've got other guys that can do what Marshall does.

Just like you've got other guys that can do what Loewen/Olson do.

You've got nobody that can do what Shealy can do.


Until I read further, this post makes the most sense to me.

[davearm]

This whole situation leaves me confused.

There's always so much crabbing on here about how the O's didn't get DLee, didn't get Delgado, didn't get Konerko.

Well here's a guy that just might hit like those guys, and do it for the league min for the next few years, and all he costs is a guy that a) may or may not even have much of a career, and b) is replaceable in the O's system.

[Dr. FLK]

This whole situation leaves me confused.

There's always so much crabbing on here about how the O's didn't get DLee, didn't get Delgado, didn't get Konerko.

Well here's a guy that just might hit like those guys, and do it for the league min for the next few years, and all he costs is a guy that a) may or may not even have much of a career, and b) is replaceable in the O's system.

I think this board still has the same value of over-valuing our own prospects. We want to get good players, but we get the classis lines of "Don't trade Player A because he's going to be a CY Young", or "Not Player B! He had a great K/BB ratio in Middle School...and sure he sucks in the minors, but he'll turn it around!"

We obviously need a 1B. The revolving door of washed up ha beens is a bad idea at a position that should provide a solid bat. We have no 1B prospects to speak of. Some people (SG) seem to love Kotchman. And, I sort of see that. But, flat out, this guy has shown he can hit. If we have a team willing to deal us a 1B that can hit for a decent minor league pitcher, we should be jumping on it. Whether we like Kotchman better or not, the Angels don't seem to be offering him to us. If Shealy is there for taking, let's get it done before the FO screws it up.

[boogidownoriole]

Can someone summarize the 26 pages? Is there still hope on this deal?

[Dr. FLK]

Can someone summarize the 26 pages? Is there still hope on this deal?

I just notied that this was page 25, and I am now amazed. How does a group of people carry on a conversation of this many pages over a deal that more than likely won't happen? Simply amazing.

[RZNJ]

Can someone summarize the 26 pages? Is there still hope on this deal?


Summary. Looks like Rockies may have asked for Penn or Olson for Shealy. Sounds like O's said no, tried to pedal Javy & whoever and talks stalled. Most of the board likes Shealy, some more than others. Many are ready to say yes to Olson but no to Penn. Others have suggested that Loewen for Shealy would be worth it to. That's the latest debate but we don't even know if the Rockies even want Loewen. That's the short version.

[boogidownoriole]

I just notied that this was page 25, and I am now amazed. How does a group of people carry on a conversation of this many pages over a deal that more than likely won't happen? Simply amazing.
Why is it amazing? Why else are we on this board except to discuss

[Dr. FLK]

Why is it amazing? Why else are we on this board except to discuss

It was a joke my friend. Relax.

[Fan4Life]

I think this board still has the same value of over-valuing our own prospects. We want to get good players, but we get the classis lines of "Don't trade Player A because he's going to be a CY Young", or "Not Player B! He had a great K/BB ratio in Middle School...and sure he sucks in the minors, but he'll turn it around!"

We obviously need a 1B. The revolving door of washed up ha beens is a bad idea at a position that should provide a solid bat. We have no 1B prospects to speak of. Some people (SG) seem to love Kotchman. And, I sort of see that. But, flat out, this guy has shown he can hit. If we have a team willing to deal us a 1B that can hit for a decent minor league pitcher, we should be jumping on it. Whether we like Kotchman better or not, the Angels don't seem to be offering him to us. If Shealy is there for taking, let's get it done before the FO screws it up.

Doesn't have to be an Either / Or.... we can get Kotchman and still work on Shealy... this solves 1b and dh...

[TonySoprano]

Can someone summarize the 26 pages? Is there still hope on this deal?No news. Shealy and Loewen.
Kotchman (again).;)

[Sports Guy]

This whole situation leaves me confused.

There's always so much crabbing on here about how the O's didn't get DLee, didn't get Delgado, didn't get Konerko.

Well here's a guy that just might hit like those guys, and do it for the league min for the next few years, and all he costs is a guy that a) may or may not even have much of a career, and b) is replaceable in the O's system.


Just because there is a guy out there that MAY do these things, that doesn't mean you trade more for him than you should. As i have said, Shealy is more likely to be Jason Lane than he is to be Derek Lee. Would you trade one of, if not, your best pitching prospect for Jason Lane dave??

The bottom line is Loewen is worth more than Shealy.

The Orioles should probably pull the trigger on Olson although i do understand the argument against it.

[RShack]

Summary. Looks like Rockies may have asked for Penn or Olson for Shealy. Sounds like O's said no, tried to pedal Javy & whoever and talks stalled. Most of the board likes Shealy, some more than others. Many are ready to say yes to Olson but no to Penn. Others have suggested that Loewen for Shealy would be worth it to. That's the latest debate but we don't even know if the Rockies even want Loewen. That's the short version.
Good summary. If I had tried to do the same thing, it woulda been at least 3 paragraphs ;-)

[markpolis]

Just because there is a guy out there that MAY do these things, that doesn't mean you trade more for him than you should. As i have said, Shealy is more likely to be Jason Lane than he is to be Derek Lee. Would you trade one of, if not, your best pitching prospect for Jason Lane dave??

The bottom line is Loewen is worth more than Shealy.

The Orioles should probably pull the trigger on Olson although i do understand the argument against it.

Davearm continues to have no problem trading our best prospects for great AAAA talent, but please don't ask him to trade any of his broken down Cubbie commodities for perhaps the best SS in baseball. ;)

[markpolis]

BTW, I would do Olson for Shealy yesterday.

[KstateBird]

the rockies are unlikely to get a pitching prospect anywhere near as highly thought of as penn is.

if the rockies come to their senses and lower their cost, you make the deal. otherwise, let him hang out on their AAA roster.

[davearm]

Davearm continues to have no problem trading our best prospects for great AAAA talent, but please don't ask him to trade any of his broken down Cubbie commodities for perhaps the best SS in baseball. ;)
Each time you refer to Shealy as a AAAA player, I become more convinced that you have no idea what you're talking about.

[davearm]

Just because there is a guy out there that MAY do these things, that doesn't mean you trade more for him than you should. As i have said, Shealy is more likely to be Jason Lane than he is to be Derek Lee. Would you trade one of, if not, your best pitching prospect for Jason Lane dave??

The bottom line is Loewen is worth more than Shealy.

The Orioles should probably pull the trigger on Olson although i do understand the argument against it.
Iterestingly enough, PECOTA lists none other than one Derrek Lee as Shealy's #1 most comparable player. That's right. The very top of the list.

Jason Lane is nowhere on the list.

But I'm sure you know better. ;)

[Sports Guy]

Iterestingly enough, PECOTA lists none other than one Derrek Lee as Shealy's #1 most comparable player. That's right. The very top of the list.

Jason Lane is nowhere on the list.

But I'm sure you know better. ;)


Good for PECOTA...When Lee played his first full season at the age of 27, he compiled an 887 OPS with 31 homers in a hitters park.

When he was 26, he had a 872 OPS and 27 homers in a hitters park.

He also had 40 steals in those 2 years and was very good defensively.

So, in other words, i could care less what PECOTA says here....The comparison stops that they are 2 men who play baseball, who happen to play the same position, bat right handed and are 6'5" and weigh close to 250lbs.

BTW, PECOTA also projects him to be a 825-850 OPS player.

[davearm]

Good for PECOTA...When Lee played his first full season at the age of 27, he compiled an 887 OPS with 31 homers in a hitters park.

When he was 26, he had a 872 OPS and 27 homers in a hitters park.

He also had 40 steals in those 2 years and was very good defensively.

So, in other words, i could care less what PECOTA says here....The comparison stops that they are 2 men who play baseball, who happen to play the same position, bat right handed and are 6'5" and weigh close to 250lbs.

BTW, PECOTA also projects him to be a 825-850 OPS player.
LOL!

So we only rely on PECOTA when it agrees with you.

Gotcha.

(And FWIW, I think 27 HRs and an 872 OPS would be plausible for Shealy this season, if he were to get 581 ML ABs)

[Sports Guy]

LOL!

So we only rely on PECOTA when it agrees with you.

Gotcha.


When did i ever say that?

I rarely mention PECOTA.

And, if PECOTA thinks Shealy will be a 825-850 OPS player and Derek Lee has only been that low ONCE since 2000, why on earth would anyone trust that comparison.

Why don't you use your brain for a second...Look at the stats...Tell me why that is a good comparison.

Remember where each player was at the ages, the parks and leagues they played...Think of Lee's speed and defense.

Tell me why that is a good comparison.

[66-70-83-??]

BTW, I would do Olson for Shealy yesterday.

Why would you give up this 1st round pitcher for what you say is a AAAA player ? That isn't being consistent.

Olson is more polished than Loewen and I believe will be a much better pitcher in the end.

I wouldn't trade Olson, Liz, or Penn for Shealy.

But, I would do Loewen or Johnson.

It is my opinion that Penn/Olson/Liz are going to be better than Loewen. I have seen them all pitch.

I just don't think Loewen will ever be consistant. Is there anything other than the hype that would lead you to believe otherwise ?

Shealy may not be the next Derek Lee or Ryan Howard, but I wouldn't call him AAAA material. Perhaps you aren't familiar with the term- it is usually reserved for players who tear up AAA but have had a few MLB opportunities and failed miserably.

Shealy didn't fail yet at the MLB level. He looked more ready for the show than Loewen did.

[Sports Guy]

BTW, Butch Huskey is also very high on that list.

Always some good and some bad guys on those lists.

[mweb]

LOL!

So we only rely on PECOTA when it agrees with you.

Gotcha.

(And FWIW, I think 27 HRs and an 872 OPS would be plausible for Shealy this season, if he were to get 581 ML ABs)

Well PECOTA predicted him to have an .874 OPS this year, so not far off there. And to have OPS' between .886 and .906 through 2010. I'd trade Olson for someone who can do that for us at 1B/DH through 2010, without paying him much.

[davearm]

When did i ever say that?

I rarely mention PECOTA.

And, if PECOTA thinks Shealy will be a 825-850 OPS player and Derek Lee has only been that low ONCE since 2000, why on earth would anyone trust that comparison.

Why don't you use your brain for a second...Look at the stats...Tell me why that is a good comparison.

Remember where each player was at the ages, the parks and leagues they played...Think of Lee's speed and defense.

Tell me why that is a good comparison.
WTF stats are *you* looking at???

Age 26
Lee (actual OPS): 0.872
Shealy (projected OPS): .0874
Difference +0.002

Age 27
Lee (actual): 0.887
Shealy (projected): .0895
Difference +0.008

Age 28
Lee (actual): 0.860
Shealy (projected): .0891
Difference +0.031

Age 29
Lee (actual): 1.080
Shealy (projected): 0.906
Difference -0.174

Age 30
Lee (projected): 0.954
Shealy (projected): .886
Difference -0.068

I dunno how that comparison could be any closer. PECOTA thinks these two will be essentially the exact same hitter for ages 26, 27, and 28 (Shealy actually a hair better). The main difference is that PECOTA doesn't project Shealy to take the quantum leap that Lee did at age 29 (and no forecasting system ever would).

[Sports Guy]

WTF stats are *you* looking at???

Age 26
Lee (actual OPS): 0.872
Shealy (projected OPS): .0874
Difference +0.002

Age 27
Lee (actual): 0.887
Shealy (projected): .0895
Difference +0.008

Age 28
Lee (actual): 0.860
Shealy (projected): .0891
Difference +0.031

Age 29
Lee (actual): 1.080
Shealy (projected): 0.906
Difference -0.174

Age 30
Lee (projected): 0.954
Shealy (projected): .886
Difference -0.068

I dunno how that comparison could be any closer. PECOTA thinks these two will be essentially the exact same hitter for ages 26, 27, and 28 (Shealy actually a hair better). The main difference is that PECOTA doesn't project Shealy to take the quantum leap that Lee did at age 29 (and no forecasting system ever would).

Wait, on PECOTA, don't you look under "equivalents"?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/shealry01.php

I have seen OriolesDog and Drungo mention that PECOTA has him between 820-850....Is that wrong?

[davearm]

BTW, Butch Huskey is also very high on that list.

Always some good and some bad guys on those lists.
OK let's pretend you've got in your hand a standard six-sided die.

On three sides are the names of perennial All-Star sluggers (DLee, Hafner, and Sexson).

On one side is a guy that had a productive, but injury-shortened career (Huskey).

One the fifth side is a guy that started hot but flamed out quickly (Josh Phelps).

And on the last side is a guy that had a long but relatively undistinguished career (Deron Johnson).

You can roll that die, and take the player whose name comes up, entering (what figure to be) his prime years.

What it costs you, though, is a solid minor league arm.

Tell me you don't roll that die.

[Sports Guy]

OK let's pretend you've got in your hand a standard six-sided die.

On three sides are the names of perennial All-Star sluggers (DLee, Hafner, and Sexson).

On one side is a guy that had a productive, but injury-shortened career (Huskey).

One the fifth side is a guy that started hot but flamed out quickly (Josh Phelps).

And on the last side is a guy that had a long but relatively undistinguished career (Deron Johnson).

You can roll that die, and take the player whose name comes up, entering (what figure to be) his prime years.

What it costs you, though, is a solid minor league arm.

Tell me you don't roll that die.

I roll it..Just not for Loewen.

[davearm]

Wait, on PECOTA, don't you look under "equivalents"?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/shealry01.php

I have seen OriolesDog and Drungo mention that PECOTA has him between 820-850....Is that wrong?
I'm comparing DLee's actuals with Shealy's unadjusted projections.

[rolliefingers]

I roll it..Just not for Loewen.Just depends whose POV you take more stock in. Some have Olson as one of the best arms in our entire system, others have Loewen rated higher.

I'm starting to think I'd trade Loewen before Olson. But again, you can make the argument several ways, and who knows, really?

[66-70-83-??]

I roll it..Just not for Loewen.

Let's look at Loewen's 6-sided die.

BP's most comparable players to Adam Loewen:

Corwin Malone
Adam Harben
Preston Larrison
Ty Howington
Luis Martinez
Phillip Dumatrait

Case closed- if Colorado sees this, they ain't rolling this die ! :eek:

[RShack]

What's the longest thread ever? And how many posts/pages/whatever did it have?

[mweb]

Wait, on PECOTA, don't you look under "equivalents"?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/shealry01.php

I have seen OriolesDog and Drungo mention that PECOTA has him between 820-850....Is that wrong?

Go down a little further to 5 year forecast.

[Sports Guy]

I'm comparing DLee's actuals with Shealy's unadjusted projections.


So, when they are unadjusted...Does that mean they aren't park adjusted and things like that?

Seems to me that the equivalents would be what you go by..Correct?(i honestly don't know)

[Sports Guy]

Just depends whose POV you take more stock in. Some have Olson as one of the best arms in our entire system, others have Loewen rated higher.

I'm starting to think I'd trade Loewen before Olson. But again, you can make the argument several ways, and who knows, really?


Based on how he is rated and looked at, Loewen has more value..Maybe not every team agrees with that but overall, we can get more for Loewen than a soon to be 27 y/o prospect

[davearm]

So, when they are unadjusted...Does that mean they aren't park adjusted and things like that?

Seems to me that the equivalents would be what you go by..Correct?(i honestly don't know)
Using equvalents would presumably yield a more apples-to-apples comparison.

I wanted to list Lee's actual (unadjusted) OPS stats, so that I didn't have folks looking them up on ESPN or MLB or whatever and seeing different numbers, and telling me that my argument was all messed up b/c the stats were incorrect. Therefore I used Shealy's unadjusted figures as well.

[bigloe]

What's the longest thread ever? And how many posts/pages/whatever did it have?

This thread isn't even close to being done, and when it is, they will just open another 1 about the same topic.

[66-70-83-??]

Based on how he is rated and looked at, Loewen has more value..Maybe not every team agrees with that but overall, we can get more for Loewen than a soon to be 27 y/o prospect

I am not so sure about that.

Look at his actual results with an open mind. Is he performing at any level like he is front of the rotation material ?

If a team has interest in dealing for him now, it is because they think they can get him cheaply and take a flyer on him.

[Sports Guy]

Using equvalents would presumably yield a more apples-to-apples comparison.

I wanted to list Lee's actual (unadjusted) OPS stats, so that I didn't have folks looking them up on ESPN or MLB or whatever and seeing different numbers, and telling me that my argument was all messed up b/c the stats were incorrect. Therefore I used Shealy's unadjusted figures as well.


Drungo and OD, 2 posters that have used BP alot more than me(i just got a membership recently) have cited his equivalent OPS's as what to use.

Dave, i am not saying you are wrong but you asked me...WTF did you get those numbers at....That's where i got them.

[Sports Guy]

I am not so sure about that.

Look at his actual results with an open mind. Is he performing at any level like he is front of the rotation material ?

If a team has interest in dealing for him now, it is because they think they can get him cheaply and take a flyer on him.


Anyone using his limited major league time as a barometer for his value is wrong.

That is not how it works.

[66-70-83-??]

Anyone using his limited major league time as a barometer for his value is wrong.

That is not how it works.

I am not using his limited major league time.

I stated:


Is he performing at any level like he is front of the rotation material ?
He didn't dominate at "A" ball last year, so was it any surprise he couldn't handle MLB this year ?

He did good at AA earlier this year (minus the BB total, of course).

We will see how he does at Ottawa. This is a big test for him.

[Sports Guy]

I am not using his limited major league time.

I stated:


He didn't dominate at "A" ball last year, so was it any surprise he couldn't handle MLB this year ?

He did good at AA earlier this year (minus the BB total, of course).

We will see how he does at Ottawa. This is a big test for him.


This is actually kind of false....His command was poorish, which caused him to give up some runs...But his peripheral stats like homers, K's, gb/fb ratio show him to be dominant.

If he gets better command, he will dominant on this level, much less the minors.

[davearm]

This is actually kind of false....His command was poorish, which caused him to give up some runs...But his peripheral stats like homers, K's, gb/fb ratio show him to be dominant.

If he gets better command, he will dominant on this level, much less the minors.
You sound like the guys on the Cub boards talking about Rich Hill ;)

[markpolis]

Each time you refer to Shealy as a AAAA player, I become more convinced that you have no idea what you're talking about.

He's 26 years old. Soon to be 27. He has yet to prove anything at the major league level. At his age he is proven to be nothing more than a very good AAAA player. Perhaps he will prove me wrong, but I guess only time will tell.

If he is the next Derek Lee then why didn't the almighty Cubbies offer Rich Hill (another good AAAA talent) for him earlier this season when Lee was DL'ed?

[66-70-83-??]

He's 26 years old. Soon to be 27. He has yet to prove anything at the major league level. At his age he is proven to be nothing more than a very good AAAA player. Perhaps he will prove me wrong, but I guess only time will tell.

If he is the next Derek Lee then why didn't the almighty Cubbies offer Rich Hill (another good AAAA talent) for him earlier this season when Lee was DL'ed?

Why do you keep harping on his age ?

He was 23 when he finished college (maybe he flunked 1st grade or something). Then he spent 1st 1/2 year after being drafted at rookie A, next year at A, then the next year at AA, then a year at AAA. He hasn't flunked at any level in baseball yet.

He hasn't failed yet. You don't credit him for that, you only knock him for his age- something he can't control or change. Is that fair ?

[markpolis]

Why do you keep harping on his age ?

He was 23 when he finished college (maybe he flunked 1st grade or something). Then he spent 1st 1/2 year after being drafted at rookie A, next year at A, then the next year at AA, then a year at AAA. He hasn't flunked at any level in baseball yet.

He hasn't failed yet. You don't credit him for that, you only knock him for his age- something he can't control or change. Is that fair ?

You're kidding, right? Most major league players reach their peak performance at the ages of 26-28 years old. He has yet to make it to the majors and he is going to be 27 years old. I think SG's Jason Lane comparisons are very appropriate and are probably what we would get out of Shealy.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind if the Orioles acquired him but I think Loewen is too high of a price. You may disagree and I respect that, but I believe most baseball people still have very high opinions about Loewen and [B]if[B] we were going to trade him I believe we could net more than Ryan Shealy.

BTW, Shealy was 23 when he finished college because he was red-shirted due to TJ surgery while playing at the University of Florida. The very same elbow that caused him to be DL-ed this spring in his failed outfield experiment.

[NoVaO]

I do have to say Dave and 66 are making a pretty persuasive case in regards to Loewen for Shealy. Personally, I would rather trade Olson than Loewen.

Unless I am misunderstanding something, the O's don't want to give up Olson, or Loewen or Penn. The Rockies probably rejected Johnson. The bottom line is that the organization, for some reason, want to hold on to all of their pitching prospects or are at least playing hardball with the Rockies, trying to get them to cave. Pick a pitcher that you feel has the least chance of succeeding and get this trade done

I basically think the biggest question is, how do Shealy's numbers translate to outside Colorodo? Are there any studies done that will show this?

[66-70-83-??]

You're kidding, right? Most major league players reach their peak performance at the ages of 26-28 years old. He has yet to make it to the majors and he is going to be 27 years old. I think SG's Jason Lane comparisons are very appropriate and are probably what we would get out of Shealy.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind if the Orioles acquired him but I think Loewen is too high of a price. You may disagree and I respect that, but I believe most baseball people still have very high opinions about Loewen and [B]if[B] we were going to trade him I believe we could net more than Ryan Shealy.

BTW, Shealy was 23 when he finished college because he was red-shirted due to TJ surgery while playing at the University of Florida. The very same elbow that caused him to be DL-ed this spring in his failed outfield experiment.

You said it yourself- "most"..... Most doesn't mean all, does it ?

No, I am not kidding.

He has progressed without failure at each level. He is stuck behind Helton. There is no position for him. I suppose that is his fault too- that he is in the wrong organization.

You can argue that Loewen is not worth the price- but why downgrade everthing he has done. Statistically, he is far more accomplished than Loewen.

Jason Lane ? Do you have a crystal ball or a ouija board ? What tells you he is going to be Jason Lane ?

If so- who do you project Loewen to be- Koufax or Spahn ?

BP's most comparable players include the likes of Derek Lee, Travis Hafner, Richie Sexson.

BP's most comparable for Loewen include the likes of Corwin Malone, Adam Harben, Preston Larrison.

[markpolis]

BP's most comparable players include the likes of Derek Lee, Travis Hafner, Richie Sexson.

BP's most comparable for Loewen include the likes of Corwin Malone, Adam Harben, Preston Larrison.

I guess you and Davearm are correct and every other organization that hasn't given away one of their better prospects for the next Derek Lee, Travis Hafner and Richie Sexson don't know what they are doing? :rolleyes:

If Shealy is "all that" then why hasn't another team acquired him already? We all know he isn't getting any younger. I mean, come on, the Rockies are only asking for the next Corwin Malone or Preston Larrison for god's sake.

BTW, It shouldn't be too long before one of those teams are knocking on your door and offering you their GM job.

[davearm]

He's 26 years old. Soon to be 27. He has yet to prove anything at the major league level. At his age he is proven to be nothing more than a very good AAAA player. Perhaps he will prove me wrong, but I guess only time will tell.

If he is the next Derek Lee then why didn't the almighty Cubbies offer Rich Hill (another good AAAA talent) for him earlier this season when Lee was DL'ed?
He's 26, yes.

Under normal circumstances, he would have been a full-time major leaguer at age 25, after putting up a ~1.000 OPS at age 24 in AA (in a slight pitcher's park in Tulsa, BTW).

Unfortunately for him, he's stuck behind a guy that makes $480 million a year.

What you don't seem to get is that to be considered a AAAA player, a guy has to have failed at the big league level, and usually in each of several go-arounds.

Shealy more than held his own last year in his only trip to the bigs: .330, .413, .473, .886.

You're clearly confused since you think those numbers paint him as a AAAA player.

[OrioleDog]

You've basically got the regular and equivalents figured right. The "regular" projections on the PECOTA cards do put the player in his organization's home park; the equivalents were the numbers I used when posting on Shealy.

All you have to do is eyeball the regular and equivalent projections on any PECOTA card for say, a Rockie vs. a Padre, to get a feel for things.

[markpolis]

Under normal circumstances, he would have been a full-time major leaguer at age 25, after putting up a ~1.000 OPS at age 24 in AA (in a slight pitcher's park in Tulsa, BTW).

Give me a break. Then why hasn't any other team traded for the next Derek Lee, Travis Hafner, Richie Sexson? Your Cubbies were looking at Conine and Millar this season when Lee went down. Why not Shealy? Please don't tell me the price of Rich Hill was too much? Geez, the Rockies are only asking for a prospect on par with the immortal Corwin Malone or Preston Larrison's of the world.

[davearm]

Give me a break. Then why hasn't any other team traded for the next Derek Lee, Travis Hafner, Richie Sexson? Your Cubbies were looking at Conine and Millar this season when Lee went down. Why not Shealy? Please don't tell me the price of Rich Hill was too much? Geez, the Rockies are only asking for a prospect on par with the immortal Corwin Malone or Preston Larrison's of the world.
I strongly suspect that Shealy was a guy the Cubs inquired about after Lee got hurt. Now why a deal was not consummated, neither of us will ever know.

Heck, one of these recent articles mentioned that the Cubs just recently made another push for Shealy, and that's even with Lee being back.

[JakeeO]

Give me a break. Then why hasn't any other team traded for the next Derek Lee, Travis Hafner, Richie Sexson? Your Cubbies were looking at Conine and Millar this season when Lee went down. Why not Shealy? Please don't tell me the price of Rich Hill was too much? Geez, the Rockies are only asking for a prospect on par with the immortal Corwin Malone or Preston Larrison's of the world.

Well, I hate to state teh obvious... but they want a stud prospect in return... someone better than Rich Hill...

[Greg Pappas]

A dark-horse, a player that could interest the O's if the Shealy deal falls thru is the Dodgers' James Loney.

James Loney had potential star player written all over him a few seasons ago before injuries (IIRC) and inconsistant play hurt his stock dramatically. But he is back very strong at AAA for them this season and may have a much higher ceiling at 1B than Shealy. This kid is only 22! Bigger risk? Probably. Bigger reward? One can only hope we find out. He is an interesting prospect.

Thoughts?

[SilentJames]

A dark-horse, a player that could interest the O's if the Shealy deal falls thru is the Dodgers' James Loney.

James Loney had potential star player written all over him a few seasons ago before injuries (IIRC) and inconsistant play hurt his stock dramatically. But he is back very strong at AAA for them this season and may have a much higher ceiling at 1B than Shealy. This kid is only 22! Bigger risk? Probably. Bigger reward? One can only hope we find out. He is an interesting prospect.

Thoughts?

If we do end up moving Tejada I know of a 23 year old SS in the Dodgers system - Shane Justice, he was my neighbor. Just wondering if anyone had heard his name here.

back ON topic: I say go for Shealy, apparently the only reason this guy is not in the majors is he is being blocked

[Moose Milligan]

So is Shealy worth 415 posts? Jeez.

[DrungoHazewood]

So is Shealy worth 415 posts? Jeez.

Jack Cust has been good for many thousands!

[RZNJ]

Let's look at Loewen's 6-sided die.

BP's most comparable players to Adam Loewen:

Corwin Malone
Adam Harben
Preston Larrison
Ty Howington
Luis Martinez
Phillip Dumatrait

Case closed- if Colorado sees this, they ain't rolling this die ! :eek:


This is quite the compelling post! Congrats. Wow!

[mikezpen]

I doubt if Garrett Olson has Loewen's stuff. But if you can't throw it over the plate, what good is it? I'd try to get them to take Johnson or Finch or Johnson and Finch maybe in exchange for Shealy.

But if they won't, well...

Like I say, we have to do something...

[Sports Guy]

This is quite the compelling post! Congrats. Wow!


Not really.

Here are Jon Lester's comparisons...Lester is a top 10 pitching prospect:

Ainsworth is his most comparable
Chuck Stobbs
Colby Lewis
Ryan Ketchner
Corwin Malone
And our good buddy Matt Riley is on there.

He does have a Noah Lowery high up there.

I don't think those comparison's matter much, as when they were probably done before the season(when he had only been in single A) and even if they are from this year, it is very minimal AA exposure.

[RZNJ]

Give me a break. Then why hasn't any other team traded for the next Derek Lee, Travis Hafner, Richie Sexson? Your Cubbies were looking at Conine and Millar this season when Lee went down. Why not Shealy? Please don't tell me the price of Rich Hill was too much? Geez, the Rockies are only asking for a prospect on par with the immortal Corwin Malone or Preston Larrison's of the world.


Good thing Mark Shapiro wasn't thinking this way when he got Travis Hafner from the Rangers for Einar Diaz. I think it was Shapiro but the point is the same.

[Fan4Life]

Let's look at Loewen's 6-sided die.

BP's most comparable players to Adam Loewen:

Corwin Malone
Adam Harben
Preston Larrison
Ty Howington
Luis Martinez
Phillip Dumatrait

Case closed- if Colorado sees this, they ain't rolling this die !


This is quite the compelling post! Congrats. Wow!


I don't know anything about those guys.. so is that saying Loewen is worth more, or less then Shealy?

[RZNJ]

Not really.

Here are Jon Lester's comparisons...Lester is a top 10 pitching prospect:

Ainsworth is his most comparable
Chuck Stobbs
Colby Lewis
Ryan Ketchner
Corwin Malone
And our good buddy Matt Riley is on there.

He does have a Noah Lowery high up there.

I don't think those comparison's matter much, as when they were probably done before the season(when he had only been in single A) and even if they are from this year, it is very minimal AA exposure.

Jon Lester has had 2 or 3 starts in the ML's. Let's wait a little while and see how he does. There are always exceptions to the rules. Obviously, those projections just give you a probability of success for failure. They can't predict for each player. If you are going to use BP or PECOTA or whatever then don't use them selectively. Not saying that you are. I think the probability is that Loewen will not be a #1 or #2 starter. Of course, I like it when some statistic agrees with me. If the same statistic said that Hayden Penn wouldn't be any good I would probably disregard it. So I think we need to leave our personal biases out of the equation a little more and try to be more objective.

[RZNJ]

I don't know anything about those guys.. so is that saying Loewen is worth more, or less then Shealy?


I would say all of those guys are failures, as prospects. Some were derailed by injuries and some had problems with command. Ainsworth may very well have been successful if he had remained healthy and he had command so that seems like an odd comparison. Those projections say TRADE Loewen for Shealy now if the Rockies will go for it.

[Fan4Life]

I would say all of those guys are failures, as prospects. Some were derailed by injuries and some had problems with command. Ainsworth may very well have been successful if he had remained healthy and he had command so that seems like an odd comparison. Those projections say TRADE Loewen for Shealy now if the Rockies will go for it.

Thanks for the info....

[RZNJ]

Thanks for the info....


Sorry, I was looking at Lester's comparables. Ainsworth is not listed on Loewen's comparables but the rest of my post still applies.

[rp0806]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but I don't have time to wade through this whole thread...why not try to add Tejada along the lines I mentioned a few days ago? i.e., trade Tejada and Loewen for Shealy, Tulowitzki, Stewart and a pitching prospect?

[Sports Guy]

Jon Lester has had 2 or 3 starts in the ML's. Let's wait a little while and see how he does. There are always exceptions to the rules. Obviously, those projections just give you a probability of success for failure. They can't predict for each player. If you are going to use BP or PECOTA or whatever then don't use them selectively. Not saying that you are. I think the probability is that Loewen will not be a #1 or #2 starter. Of course, I like it when some statistic agrees with me. If the same statistic said that Hayden Penn wouldn't be any good I would probably disregard it. So I think we need to leave our personal biases out of the equation a little more and try to be more objective.


The bottom line is whether you question Loewen or not, no one really questions Lester and he isn't being compared to many inspiring names either.

End of the day, to bring up these comparison's in regards to Loewen, Shealy or any other player who has not proven anything at the major league level is basically just posting something to make your argument look better but at the end of the day, they mean absolutely nothing.

[bigloe]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but I don't have time to wade through this whole thread...why not try to add Tejada along the lines I mentioned a few days ago? i.e., trade Tejada and Loewen for Shealy, Tulowitzki, Stewart and a pitching prospect?

Because Colorado probably can't take on that salary.

[RZNJ]

The bottom line is whether you question Loewen or not, no one really questions Lester and he isn't being compared to many inspiring names either.

End of the day, to bring up these comparison's in regards to Loewen, Shealy or any other player who has not proven anything at the major league level is basically just posting something to make your argument look better but at the end of the day, they mean absolutely nothing.

I question Lester. I questioned him when he looked horrible in ST and when he got off to a slow start at AAA. Maybe he'll surprise BP and me. I'm not saying those comparison's are the be all and end all but they are interesting. As I think I said, I believe they provide a statistical probability. They don't prove anything. The player proves whether they were right or wrong. However, if you say that they mean absolutely nothing then I guess we can count on you not to ever use statistics again in trying to project what other players will do in the future.

It's pretty funny that you should say that people are just using these comparison's to make their argument look better and then throwing it out. Isn't that what we do here? Use statistics to make comparisons to help our arguments. Haven't you done this a thousand times?

[OrioleDog]

The other thing with the familiar and unfamiliar names on Shealy and Loewen's PECOTA comp lists is that since Shealy played in MLB last year, he got an MLB comparables list.

I'm pretty sure for guys who have not made the show yet (or at least for guys who hadn't even made the high minors, as was the case with Loewen at the end of 2005); their PECOTA comparables list is culled from a minor league season database.

[Fan4Life]

Because Colorado probably can't take on that salary.

If we can get a package from the Angels similar to SG's suggestions, as well as getting Shealy from the Rox, I'd be thrilled with that.... IF Ortiz can have two consecutive quality starts.. maybe that opens up more options.. it looks like he is scheduled to start against Atlanta this weekend... how interesting...

[RZNJ]

The other thing with the familiar and unfamiliar names on Shealy and Loewen's PECOTA comp lists is that since Shealy played in MLB last year, he got an MLB comparables list.

I'm pretty sure for guys who have not made the show yet (or at least for guys who hadn't even made the high minors, as was the case with Loewen at the end of 2005); their PECOTA comparables list is culled from a minor league season database.

Good point but it's still not an inspiring list, since none of those pitchers ever became anything. If we were to use Loewen's ML time this season, I don't think the list would look any prettier. I think I like Shealy's list better.

[Sports Guy]

I question Lester. I questioned him when he looked horrible in ST and when he got off to a slow start at AAA. Maybe he'll surprise BP and me. I'm not saying those comparison's are the be all and end all but they are interesting. As I think I said, I believe they provide a statistical probability. They don't prove anything. The player proves whether they were right or wrong. However, if you say that they mean absolutely nothing then I guess we can count on you not to ever use statistics again in trying to project what other players will do in the future.

It's pretty funny that you should say that people are just using these comparison's to make their argument look better and then throwing it out. Isn't that what we do here? Use statistics to make comparisons to help our arguments. Haven't you done this a thousand times?
It is one thing to compare a guy based on similar qualities...People use RJ as a comparison for DC, not because they think he will be that good but because he is a tall pitcher fighting command who has great stuff.

If you want to say Shealy has got great size and good power like a young Derek Lee, that's fine.

But to use stats to compare the 2 is unbelievably stupid.

I already showed what Lee was doing in a pitchers park at Shealy's age...Shealy is banging around in AAA.

If Shealy is so good, how come teams like TB or KC or Oak or teams like that aren't beating down the door for this guy?

[rp0806]

If Shealy is so good, how come teams like TB or KC or Oak or teams like that aren't beating down the door for this guy?

Why weren't teams beating down the door for Hafner? The Indians got him for almost nothing (Einar Diaz). Or look at Ryan Howard -- he didn't get a real shot until he was 25 b/c he was stuck behind Thome. Not saying Shealy is the next Hafner or Howard, but it's certainly possible that he could be a good ML hitter. The fact that he's still in the minors doesn't prove much one way or the other.

[Sports Guy]

Why weren't teams beating down the door for Hafner? The Indians got him for almost nothing (Einar Diaz). Or look at Ryan Howard -- he didn't get a real shot until he was 25 b/c he was stuck behind Thome. Not saying Shealy is the next Hafner or Howard, but it's certainly possible that he could be a good ML hitter. The fact that he's still in the minors doesn't prove much one way or the other.

Of course he could be a good ML hitter...I have said i felt he would put up OPS's in the 800-850 range.

[markdublya]

I hope we get this guy, after a 30+ page thread!! :p

[RZNJ]

It is one thing to compare a guy based on similar qualities...People use RJ as a comparison for DC, not because they think he will be that good but because he is a tall pitcher fighting command who has great stuff.

If you want to say Shealy has got great size and good power like a young Derek Lee, that's fine.

But to use stats to compare the 2 is unbelievably stupid.
I already showed what Lee was doing in a pitchers park at Shealy's age...Shealy is banging around in AAA.

If Shealy is so good, how come teams like TB or KC or Oak or teams like that aren't beating down the door for this guy?


I'm interested in stats and use them to some extent but not nearly as versed in them as many others. When you say it is unbelievable stupid to use stats to compare the two, then it seems as though you are saying that anyone who did make the comparison is being stupid. Seems a little harsh. Was it Basbeall Prospectus who makes these comparisons that others are using? Whoever it is, is a website that uses statistics heavily. Are you calling them stupid too? How come no one was beating down the door for Travis Hafner and Cleveland was able to get him for Einar Diaz? If you wait for other GM's to bang down the door there likely won't be anyone home when you get there.

Also, for someone who clamored for Hee Sop Choi, I don't recall you using the argument of "If he's so good why isn't anyone else trying to get him?"

[Sports Guy]

I'm interested in stats and use them to some extent but not nearly as versed in them as many others. When you say it is unbelievable stupid to use stats to compare the two, then it seems as though you are saying that anyone who did make the comparison is being stupid. Seems a little harsh. Was it Basbeall Prospectus who makes these comparisons that others are using? Whoever it is, is a website that uses statistics heavily. Are you calling them stupid too? How come no one was beating down the door for Travis Hafner and Cleveland was able to get him for Einar Diaz? If you wait for other GM's to bang down the door there likely won't be anyone home when you get there.

Also, for someone who clamored for Hee Sop Choi, I don't recall you using the argument of "If he's so good why isn't anyone else trying to get him?"

Yes, i think it is stupid for BP to compare Shealy to Derek Lee based on a very limited number of ab's in Colorado.

I think that they just project out his stats(that he had in the majors last year) for the same age and that is how they come up with it...Hardly scientific.

Bottom line is, over a full season of ab's, Lee was putting up near 900 OPS's in a pitchers park in the majors.

Lee is a great defensive first baseman and steals 15-20 bases a year.

Shealy is not any of those things, so therefore, i see the comparison as total BS.

[Sports Guy]

Also, for someone who clamored for Hee Sop Choi, I don't recall you using the argument of "If he's so good why isn't anyone else trying to get him?"

I also wasn't giving up a top young arm for him either.

There is a reason Shealy is still in AAA....The Rockies think he is worth a top pitching prospect and obviously most teams don't feel the same way.

[RShack]

If Winston Churchill was a baseball fan, his comment on this thread might have been: "Never in history have so many said so much about 2 ballplayers whose accomplishements have been so few."

[rp0806]

If you think Shealy is capable of putting up an .850 OPS, then I'm not sure I understand the point of this argument. The comparison to Lee might be a stretch, but Shealy performing at Lee's level does seem like it's in the realm of possibility, so what's the big deal?

Is he worth Loewen? I'm not sure, but I think it's safe to assume that it's far more likely that Shealy will give the Orioles a few seasons of above average hitting than Loewen will turn into a #1 starter. So it's simply a matter of balancing the more predictable, but less valuable player versus the less predictable, but more valuable one.

[Sports Guy]

If you think Shealy is capable of putting up an .850 OPS, then I'm not sure I understand the point of this argument. The comparison to Lee might be a stretch, but Shealy performing at Lee's level does seem like it's in the realm of possibility, so what's the big deal?

Is he worth Loewen? I'm not sure, but I think it's safe to assume that it's far more likely that Shealy will give the Orioles a few seasons of above average hitting than Loewen will turn into a #1 starter. So it's simply a matter of balancing the more predictable, but less valuable player versus the less predictable, but more valuable one.
First of all, Lee is better than a 850 OPS player...He has only been below 850 once in the last 6 years. 850 is always where i think Shealy will likely top out at(not that he can't/won't do better, just going with odds)

Secondly, Lee has a much better overall skill set than Shealy.

At least with Hafner, you have a guy who is a DH, not that great defensively and not a guy who will steal 15-20 bases.

Not that i think he is Hafner either but i think that is a better comparison.

[RZNJ]

If Winston Churchill was a baseball fan, his comment on this thread might have been: "Never in history have so many said so much about 2 ballplayers whose accomplishements have been so few."

For someone who takes 10 paragraphs to make one point this is especially amusing. :)

[rp0806]

First of all, Lee is better than a 850 OPS player...He has only been below 850 once in the last 6 years. 850 is always where i think Shealy will likely top out at(not that he can't/won't do better, just going with odds)

Secondly, Lee has a much better overall skill set than Shealy.

Even including last year's 1.080 OPS, Lee's career OPS is .865. So he's basically an .850-.875 kind of player. In any event, I didn't say that Shealy is likely to be as good as Lee, only that if Shealy's likely performance is in the .850 range, then the upper boundary of his performance could easily be in the .900-.950 range. (I'm not talking about defense or baserunning, just offensive performance.)

Is Shealy a terrific prospect? No. Is he likely to be a good player? Yes, and the fact that he's still in AAA does not prove otherwise.

[Sports Guy]

Even including last year's 1.080 OPS, Lee's career OPS is .865. So he's basically an .850-.875 kind of player. In any event, I didn't say that Shealy is likely to be as good as Lee, only that if Shealy's likely performance is in the .850 range, then the upper boundary of his performance could easily be in the .900-.950 range. (I'm not talking about defense or baserunning, just offensive performance.)

Is Shealy a terrific prospect? No. Is he likely to be a good player? Yes, and the fact that he's still in AAA does not prove otherwise.

What it proves is that the Rockies are asking for alot more than teams think he is worth.

[RShack]

For someone who takes 10 paragraphs to make one point this is especially amusing. :)
Sometimes the truth is short and pithy. Maybe I can't say it briefly very often, but I do what I can. Plus, I was mainly relying on Churchill ;-)

[El Gordo]

Yes, i think it is stupid for BP to compare Shealy to Derek Lee based on a very limited number of ab's in Colorado.

I think that they just project out his stats(that he had in the majors last year) for the same age and that is how they come up with it...Hardly scientific.

Bottom line is, over a full season of ab's, Lee was putting up near 900 OPS's in a pitchers park in the majors.

Lee is a great defensive first baseman and steals 15-20 bases a year.

Shealy is not any of those things, so therefore, i see the comparison as total BS.
On what information do you base your assessment of Shealy's defense or lack there of ?

[Sports Guy]

On what information do you base your assessment of Shealy's defense or lack there of ?

What scouts have said...Stuff in this thread...He may be good enough over there but he is not Derek Lee. If he was, he would be playign first base for someone in the majors right now.

[AgentOrange]

What scouts have said...Stuff in this thread...He may be good enough over there but he is not Derek Lee. If he was, he would be playign first base for someone in the majors right now.


I think it is unfair to say that. You have no idea if the Rockies were asking for too much for him, they may have been asking too much the whole time.

While some people on here say that the kid is already "washed up" and maxed out his potential already... They are still asking for Penn or Olson, which some believe is too much.

Plus, back a couple years ago, Helton was on the trading block, if he was traded, it wouldn't have made sense to get rid of Shealy as well. They needed a back up plan. Not to mention Helton being on the DL and having some injury problems as well as getting up there in age, they need a safety net. It is not out of the realm of possibility to think he was thier Ryan Howard.

As for the reports, I would love to see more of the negitive ones, I have however seen some like this on the board...

From Wildcard...


Here is a read on Shealy's first base defense.

From ColoradoRockies.com

"Shealy also gains confidence from the fact that he already plays a position well. His hands and footwork could make him an above-average first baseman"

http://colorado.rockies.mlb.com/NASA...=.jsp&c_id=col

Exhibit two:

Denverpost.com

He finally arrived at the ballpark at 5:45, took a few rushed practice cuts, drove in a run in the third inning and pulled off a Gold Glove-worth first-to- shortstop-to-first double play in the sixth.

Shealy was with the Rockies in June as a designated hitter during interleague play. Tuesday marked his first appearance as a fielder in the big leagues.

"It was definitely different, but I was pumped up for it," he said. "I take a lot of pride in my defense, and I work hard at it. That paid off tonight."

http://www.denverpost.com/portlet/ar...rticle=2892660

[Answerman]

I'm okay with Olson for Shealy as long as they take Conine. I'm worried about the ab's kicking in per Conine's automatic contract renewal. I hate the notion of spending big bucks on a 1B because any major league veteran can be moved there and play decent defense. Getting a solid hitting 1B at league minimum will give us money to spend at more difficult-to-fill positions. He will also peak with our young pitchers.

Food for thought: Will Konerko be worth $13M per year more than Shealy? Doubtful.

Make the deal.

[Fan4Life]

Lining Up For Shealy

It might be helpful to summarize all the Ryan Shealy suitors from the last few months, just so we can keep them straight. These are all from various newspapers.

The most recent one is that the Red Sox offered 23 year-old southpaw starter Abe Alvarez. Alvarez posted a 4.85 ERA but a solid 1.20 WHIP in Triple A last year. This season, he's at 4.46 with a 1.36 WHIP. He's had little opportunity to prove himself in Boston. Random bio: Alvarez likes to wear his hat crooked, is legally blind in one eye, and is known for pinpoint control. Actually, those first two facts aren't so random - Alvarez wears his hat that way to balance the lighting for that eye. Sounds like a good kid who has overcome quite a bit of adversity, but the Rockies are looking for more.

Then there's the Orioles. Baltimore has little in the way of first basemen waiting in the wings, but they balked at the Rockies' request for Hayden Penn. It's said the team would prefer to deal Javy Lopez, but they've been trying to do that for ages. The Rockies could use a decent catcher for their unlikely pennant run, and Lopez is hitting .282/.329/.437 this season at 35. That's not particularly young for a backstop, and Lopez has only caught 12 games this season out of 56 played. He'd make an interesting addition to a lot of teams, but at $8.5MM this will probably just be a salary dump. The O's will have to surrender a young player to get Shealy. Adam Loewen seems like too high a price, but I am not an expert in the Orioles' farm system.

It's been noted that the Blue Jays are interested, so a third AL East team is in the mix. The Jays already have Shea Hillenbrand and Eric Hinske clogging up the DH spot, so something would have to give before they acquired Shealy. Toronto doesn't have much in the way of Triple A starters who could be swapped with the Rox.

The Cubs poked around in May with their first base vacancy (albeit two weeks later than they should have). Recent word is that Cubs offered reliever David Aardsma. Besides having the first name in the baseball encyclopedia, Aardsma has 20 solid Triple A innings to his credit. He hasn't shown much in the Majors this season. The persistent walk problem remains. Assuming Shealy was healthy enough to play left field, the Cubs should step up their offer to at least Rich Hill.

One of the papers mentioned that the Indians inquired within the last year, but there's no longer a fit. Ryan Garko is not setting the world afire at Buffalo, nor is Ryan Mulhern at Double A. Michael Aubrey has been on the DL with a knee injury since late May. So I'm thinking the Indians would still like to acquire Shealy, but maybe the Rockies were asking for too much.

Shealy is doing well in Colorado Springs (though of course in a hitters' environment). He's at .284/.357/.593 after 43 games.

[Sports Guy]

Hayden Penn is leaps and bounds over anyone offered so far.

Hell, offering Javy Lopez is actually pretty fair compared to the offers they are getting.

JJ Johnson is as good as they have been offered....Add in Finch or Rleal...If the Rockies turn that down, oh well.

[Fan4Life]

Hayden Penn is leaps and bounds over anyone offered so far.

Hell, offering Javy Lopez is actually pretty fair compared to the offers they are getting.

JJ Johnson is as good as they have been offered....Add in Finch or Rleal...If the Rockies turn that down, oh well.

Considering the season is going to be more than halfway complete soon... is Javys' salary really an issue?

[Sports Guy]

Considering the season is going to be more than halfway complete soon... is Javys' salary really an issue?


They can even have Javy and we pay half the contract.

[8ripken2131]

In case anyone was still wondering, I was able to exchange emails with Troy Renck, the Rockies beat writer for the Denver Post, who broke the story about the O's interest in Shealy. He had VERY GOOD THINGS to say about Shealy, both offensively and defensively. His thoughts can be found here: oriolesreport.com (http://oriolesreport.com)

[Moose Milligan]

I don't know how Jack Cust topped this many posts. I said he sucked right from the start.

[Boston Dave]

In case anyone was still wondering, I was able to exchange emails with Troy Renck, the Rockies beat writer for the Denver Post, who broke the story about the O's interest in Shealy. He had VERY GOOD THINGS to say about Shealy, both offensively and defensively. His thoughts can be found here: oriolesreport.com (http://oriolesreport.com)

cool. Thanks. I gotta say- do we really need another Chris Richard type player? I'd rather suffer (?) through another year of Millar and get\develop a REAL prospect. We should be thinking AA type guys with great defense and monster power potential.

[Sports Guy]

Reading some things from fans on a Rockies board leaves me to believe that the Orioles and Rockies are perfect matches...I think this should get done.

The best pitcher being offered is a JJ Johnson type player...Apparently the Rockies do think they can win the division this year so i think they woudl take Javy but you probably need to pay some salary and offer up another solid pitching prospect.

Personally, i think we can can get Shealy without giving up any of the big 6.

[El Gordo]

Reading some things from fans on a Rockies board leaves me to believe that the Orioles and Rockies are perfect matches...I think this should get done.

The best pitcher being offered is a JJ Johnson type player...Apparently the Rockies do think they can win the division this year so i think they woudl take Javy but you probably need to pay some salary and offer up another solid pitching prospect.

Personally, i think we can can get Shealy without giving up any of the big 6.
If the Rockies are in the thick of things at TD they'll go for Javy for Shealy. They have crapola for catchers and Javy's bat assuming he continues to hit will be irrisistable.

[NoVaO]

Reading some things from fans on a Rockies board leaves me to believe that the Orioles and Rockies are perfect matches...I think this should get done.

The best pitcher being offered is a JJ Johnson type player...Apparently the Rockies do think they can win the division this year so i think they woudl take Javy but you probably need to pay some salary and offer up another solid pitching prospect.

Personally, i think we can can get Shealy without giving up any of the big 6.

Sometimes you just need to get the deal done.

Javy and Finch I'm not sure is a fair deal, but Javy and Johnson is a fair deal IF Colorodo thinks they have a shot at winning, but the deal won't work if they don't want Javy. If they don't want Javy, there is no point in offering him. There have been no indications that the Rockies even have a small interest in Javy.

The bottom line is that if we really want Shealy, and believe he could be our first baseman or DH of the future, then we should offer something the Rockies would accept. We shouldn't always make a trade offer based on what other teams are offering.

I'm not looking for the O's to make a perfect deal. I see a player that would fill a need right now, and I see that we can pick him up by dealing a guy in Olson who is still a year or two away from contributing in the big leagues and who comes from a position of strength within our organization.

Olson is a step up from the Abe Alvarez offer. Making an offer basically the equivalent of Alvarez does nothing because the Rockies have made it known they want something more than Alvarez and they are right in doing so because Shealy is much more valuable than what they are being offered. Take the risk and get the deal done.

[jerios55]

Shealy, 26, has rebounded nicely after a lost spring training when an elbow injury spoiled his attempt to switch to the outfield. Shealy blasted the first pitch he saw this season over the left-field fence and has 12 home runs and 43 RBIs in 43 games. He sat out Wednesday with a stiff back, but could play this weekend.

this is from the original article in this post. If they even considered him for the outfield he probably would be at least average at 1B.

[AgentOrange]

cool. Thanks. I gotta say- do we really need another Chris Richard type player? I'd rather suffer (?) through another year of Millar and get\develop a REAL prospect. We should be thinking AA type guys with great defense and monster power potential.


Love to see you back this up.

[blakesta]

20,000 VIEWS and over 450 replys to this post...is this a hangout record??