View Full Version : Is this a fair trade?
Spoonless
05-15-2007, 04:53 PM
OK, it's a 10 team league, and we're supposed to be throwing $20 each into it. This is a trade that was made. 4/10 tried to protest the trade, but one of the teams involved was the commissioner. I was wondering what people's opinions here are.
The commish gives up:
Ian Kinsler
JJ Hardy
Armando Benitez
for:
José Reyes
Tadahito Iguchi
GoBirds05
05-16-2007, 10:51 AM
Why protest that? Sure it can be lopsided but there is no sure shot collusion. Not all trades are going to look even, and some might be lobsided. Thats what makes a fantasy manager great, his ability to juice trades and make the best Free agent pick ups. The guy picked up Hardy, and Kinsler had a hot start (although hes cooled off quite a bit), so he figured hed tell the guy something like, be solid at both SS and 2B and have an extra closer instead of being phenominal at SS and just okay at 2B without the extra closer.
No, i wouldnt veto this or anything close to this.
Mackus
05-16-2007, 11:00 AM
I'd veto that in an instant.
3 average guys for one of the best 5 guys in the game.
GoBirds05
05-16-2007, 12:41 PM
I'd veto that in an instant.
3 average guys for one of the best 5 guys in the game.
As of right now in a 5x5 league ESPNs player rater (which takes each category and gives 5 pts to the statistical leader and then adjusts then prorates points to everyone else compared to the leader IE if the HR leader had 10HR hed get the 5.00 pts, if the next guy had 9HR hed get 4.50 pts (9/10 * 5.00)). These are how the players rank.
Jose Reyes: 3rd overall, Best Shortstop
Tadahito Iguchi: 43rd best Secondbasemen (should not be on a roster right now) He's hurt and hitting .210
JJ Hardy: 6th overall, Second Shortstop
Ian Kinsler: 90th overall, 5th 2B, was First for a long time and has had a slump recently, I personally think he can finish top 3 at 2nd.
Then you have Armando Benitez, who is who he is for the last however many years
So basically you have a low level Closer coming in with the best stories at 2B and SS this year and you are putting out a top 3 player. So what if this guy had all kinds of stolen bases and no HR power? What if he also only has one closer? Then it becomes a good deal for him. Sure hes buying high and that can lead to troubles, but if you are killing in SB and getting killed in HR, picking up Kinsler and Hardy adds a good amount of HR, while getting rid of a ton of SB, but if you have Lofton or someone like that too, who cares, you gotta be strong in all facets.
Basically what I am saying is, if an argument can even be made that its fair, then there is no reason to veto a trade. A veto is only for when you think there is collusion, not for when you think someone is getting eaten up by a buy low/ sell high deal.
The only way that's fair is if Hardy and Kinsler are for real, which is possible. The commish sold high and did a good job in doing so.
Sports Guy
05-16-2007, 09:14 PM
How is Hardy and Kinsler for Reyes unfair?
How is Hardy and Kinsler for Reyes unfair?
Well it depends on if Hardy and Kinsler are flukes or even semi-flukes. Think of it this way, Reyes was probably a top 5 pick and has easily exceeded expectations, while Kinsler and Hardy were likely late round picks if even drafted in Hardy's case, and neither guy was considered to be a 35-45 hr type. So do 40 games justify trading a top 5 pick who has been great for two late picks who have been surprisingly good to great? I'd say no, but the trade isn't that unfair.
Sports Guy
05-16-2007, 11:21 PM
Well it depends on if Hardy and Kinsler are flukes or even semi-flukes. Think of it this way, Reyes was probably a top 5 pick and has easily exceeded expectations, while Kinsler and Hardy were likely late round picks if even drafted in Hardy's case, and neither guy was considered to be a 35-45 hr type. So do 40 games justify trading a top 5 pick who has been great for two late picks who have been surprisingly good to great? I'd say no, but the trade isn't that unfair.
I hate the idea of so and so was a top pick, blah blah blah.
The bottom line is Hardy and Kinsler were excellent prospects with huge potential and they are playing great this year.
They probably aren't as good as they have been but i would take those 2 over Reyes and Iguchi in terms of a SS/2nd base combo.
I hate the idea of so and so was a top pick, blah blah blah.
The bottom line is Hardy and Kinsler were excellent prospects with huge potential and they are playing great this year.
They probably aren't as good as they have been but i would take those 2 over Reyes and Iguchi in terms of a SS/2nd base combo.
Well if you think this is a fair trade then you should think Miggy has lost a ton of value since 40 games determine so much.;)
Sports Guy
05-17-2007, 10:09 AM
Well if you think this is a fair trade then you should think Miggy has lost a ton of value since 40 games determine so much.;)
It was a fair trade because the MiL careers of Kinsler and Hardy suggest they could be very good and maybe AS caliber players.
No reason to think they are flukes.
Pedro Cerrano
05-17-2007, 04:46 PM
This is like if Lincecum blows up and is dealt for an early round guy.
Sure, he was probably not drafted but he is playing like many thought he would and next year you can be sure he will be drafted early.
Kudos to your commissioner for stumbling on Kinsler and Hardy.
P.S. I was going to pick up Hardy but decided to hold onto Brandon Wood in my other league and man am I ticked off.
It was a fair trade because the MiL careers of Kinsler and Hardy suggest they could be very good and maybe AS caliber players.
No reason to think they are flukes.
Well except the fact that Kinsler is 4 for 43 this month, only hit 14 hr's in 120 games last year, and I don't believe was ever projected to be a 35+ hr guy. Plus 7 of his 10 hr's came in the first 12 games.
Oh, and Hardy hit 25 hr's in 302 minor league games and 14 in 159 major league games. BTW, career minor league OPS: .737.
I would say those are reasons to suspect they may be at least a little bit flukey. I'm going to go out on a limb and predict these guys don't combine to hit 85+ hr's this year.
And just to make myself clear so you don't act like my position is extreme here, I'm not saying they're bad players or will stop hitting hr's, just saying that they're very unlikely to keep up their current pace.
Just for fun, I'll predict Hardy ends up with 32 hr's, Kinsler with 24.
This is like if Lincecum blows up and is dealt for an early round guy.
Sure, he was probably not drafted but he is playing like many thought he would and next year you can be sure he will be drafted early.
Kudos to your commissioner for stumbling on Kinsler and Hardy.
P.S. I was going to pick up Hardy but decided to hold onto Brandon Wood in my other league and man am I ticked off.
Except a lot of people expected Lincecum to blow up, no one expected Hardy and Kinsler to hit 23 hr's by this point in the season. So Lincecum would be viewed as more legit.
ccbird
05-18-2007, 05:46 AM
Well except the fact that Kinsler is 4 for 43 this month, only hit 14 hr's in 120 games last year, and I don't believe was ever projected to be a 35+ hr guy. Plus 7 of his 10 hr's came in the first 12 games.
Oh, and Hardy hit 25 hr's in 302 minor league games and 14 in 159 major league games. BTW, career minor league OPS: .737.
I would say those are reasons to suspect they may be at least a little bit flukey. I'm going to go out on a limb and predict these guys don't combine to hit 85+ hr's this year.
And just to make myself clear so you don't act like my position is extreme here, I'm not saying they're bad players or will stop hitting hr's, just saying that they're very unlikely to keep up their current pace.
Just for fun, I'll predict Hardy ends up with 32 hr's, Kinsler with 24.
Wait, did you really just say you were going out on a limb by predicting JJ Hardy and Ian Kinsler won't average 43 homers this year. WOW. That is going out on a twig. They are like locks to each hit 60 this year.:p
Pedro Cerrano
05-18-2007, 11:40 AM
How big of a prospect were Hardy and Kinsler?
How big of a prospect were Hardy and Kinsler?
They were good prospects, but I don't believe either were expected to be big power hitters.
Sports Guy
05-18-2007, 03:57 PM
They were good prospects, but I don't believe either were expected to be big power hitters.
Kinsler had pretty solid power numbers in the minors and Hardy got better as he moved up the ladder.
This was a good trade and one that shouldn't even come close to being questioned.
Kinsler had pretty solid power numbers in the minors and Hardy got better as he moved up the ladder.
This was a good trade and one that shouldn't even come close to being questioned.
Good trade for the guy that got Reyes. But yeah, it's not a trade that should be vetoed, most trades aren't going to be totally fair.
You have to give me that I did show some reasons why they may be at least a little flukey.
Sports Guy
05-18-2007, 11:53 PM
Good trade for the guy that got Reyes. But yeah, it's not a trade that should be vetoed, most trades aren't going to be totally fair.
You have to give me that I did show some reasons why they may be at least a little flukey.
No you didn't...You showed why they may not keep up this pace, which i have said from the very beginning anyway.
Hardy and Kinsler > Reyes and Iguchi
No you didn't...You showed why they may not keep up this pace, which i have said from the very beginning anyway.
Hardy and Kinsler > Reyes and Iguchi
What's the difference? Them not being able to keep up their pace means their starts are a fluke. And they likely can't come close to keeping their respected paces either. If you agree with that, you should think their starts are a fluke.
So yes, I clearly did.
We'll see about that last part, Reyes is easily the best out of the group imo, Kinsler is probably just going to be a mediocre fantasy option at 2nd, and Iguchi shouldn't be starting anyway, and probably won't be either, so he's basically a non-factor in this.
ccbird
05-19-2007, 07:09 PM
If the other guy was desperate for a 2nd baseman and closer then the trade is fine. Obviously, he was fairly desperate for an upgrade at 2nd with Iguchi and Benitez while a huge injury risk right now is pitching fairly well and is getting a good amount of save chances.
Keeper league no way I do this. Reyes is a top 5 player for the next 5-10 years.
Sports Guy
05-19-2007, 07:38 PM
If the other guy was desperate for a 2nd baseman and closer then the trade is fine. Obviously, he was fairly desperate for an upgrade at 2nd with Iguchi and Benitez while a huge injury risk right now is pitching fairly well and is getting a good amount of save chances.
Keeper league no way I do this. Reyes is a top 5 player for the next 5-10 years.
That depends on how many players you can keep and if it is an auction league or not.
Well Hardy and Kinsler are sucking, who would have ever thought they'd come back down to earth?
Well Hardy and Kinsler are sucking, who would have ever thought they'd come back down to earth?
And it keeps getting worse for Hardy and Kinsler(although he was doing well again before getting hurt). That trade looks more and more unfair as time goes on. And when this season is over, JJ's AS appearance will look pretty bad as well imo. That's part of why more should be considered than just the first 70 or so games of the season.
Sports Guy
08-02-2008, 12:44 PM
And it keeps getting worse for Hardy and Kinsler(although he was doing well again before getting hurt). That trade looks more and more unfair as time goes on. And when this season is over, JJ's AS appearance will look pretty bad as well imo. That's part of why more should be considered than just the first 70 or so games of the season.
One year later......
Where do you stand on these guys now?
(sorry for bringing this up, this conversation popped into my head today)
I could just not respond to this like you were doing last year when they were struggling, but I'll respond. Yes, both are having very good seasons, especially Kinsler. However, in terms of the trade, one year later, one guy still has Reyes, and the other guy likely didn't keep Hardy or Kinsler. So in terms of this trade, that's probably where it stands.
And after reading through the thread, my comments still look pretty good imo.