Poor sportsmanship or smart baseball?

[SteveA]

The Toronto announcers are complaining about what they call "poor sportsmanship" on this play, and the Blue Jay players and manager don't seem to happy either. I'm no Yankee fan, but I believe this was just a smart play by A-Rod and I see nothing wrong with it whatsoever:

A-Rod on 1st, Matsui on 2nd, 2 outs. Batter hits extremely high popup to left side. 3rd baseman (McDonald) comes in to field it, shorstop is behind him but backs off. Matsui races around 3rd, A-Rod rounds 2nd and runs, right in the baseline, between the SS & 3Bman. It appears that when he is directly behind the 3rd baseman he says "I got it". The 3rd baseman, thinking it is the SS calling him off, backs off the ball. It falls in for a hit, Matsui scores, and the Yankees go on to get a couple more that inning.

Toronto announcers were pissed, calling it bush league and poor sportsmanship. I see no problem with it....how is it any different than other types of deception such as acting as if a throw is coming in when it isn't, or the hidden ball trick?

As I said, I'm no Yankee lover, but I give A-Rod credit for a smart play and would not complain even if it happened against the Orioles. It's not like he tried to sissy-slap the ball out of the first baseman's glove or something!

[brooksie05]

Perhaps the next time the Jays and Yanks meet Burnett will "accidentally" let a 98 MPH fast ball "slip" and hit A-Rod upside his head. These types of actions have a way of policing itself.

[boogidownoriole]

Smart play? Smart play? You probably also call the slap to the glove in the playoffs a smart play.

That was low class and I am sorry I defended this guy in another thread. I hope he gets nailed in their next game with the Jays

[PaulFolk]

Sure it's a smart play. It's the fault of the 3B for not recognizing that it wasn't his teammate's voice. I've always wondered why more baserunners don't try stuff like this. If they're dumb enough to fall for it, why not try?

[Why Not?]

Stray-Rod and his teammates have to expect and understand that Rodriguez will be thrown at for doing this, probably more than once.

[charliec107]

I think it was kind of funny (probably since it didn't happen to the O's). Kids have been trying this for years and I have never seen it work, not even in my backyard. Now, an MLB player pulls it off. Baseball is supposed to be fun. Alex was just fooling around, and it worked.

[blueberryale77]

I guess he was just trying to do something else controversial to take the attention away from his affair.:rolleyes:

[Mackus]

The 3B is definitely a moron for letting this ball drop.

I won't call it a "smart play" by ARod, but I won't call it classless either. It was a very silly play that happened to work. I'm sure guys do this all the time, it just happened to work for him. I'd say its a good result for the Yankees, if nothing else. Gotta give him props for that.

[bgfield]

If that's what happened, I think it's pretty lame. I'm not one of those people who hates Rodriguez just because he's a Yankee, but he's done some awful stupid things in his career. It's easy to say "he should recognize his teammates voice" when you aren't in the middle of a stadium filled with thousands of screaming fans. This isn't as bad as the gloveslap in the playoffs against Boston, but it's still pretty bad. Clever? Sure. Hell, I'd even say it's pretty funny. But it's still poor sportsmanship, IMO.

[bgfield]

By the way, this IS considered interference by the rulebook:

INTERFERENCE
(a) Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play. If the umpire declares the batter, batter- runner, or a runner out for interference, all other runners shall return to the last base that was in the judgment of the umpire, legally touched at the time of the interference, unless otherwise provided by these rules.

So yeah, that's why you don't see guys trying this more often.

[Why Not?]

By the way, this IS considered interference by the rulebook:

INTERFERENCE
(a) Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play. If the umpire declares the batter, batter- runner, or a runner out for interference, all other runners shall return to the last base that was in the judgment of the umpire, legally touched at the time of the interference, unless otherwise provided by these rules.

So yeah, that's why you don't see guys trying this more often.

I don't see any language like that in the MLB rulebook.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/runner_7.jsp

[Mu'ayyidSaafir]

The real question is how did the Yankees manage to solve the great Jesse Litsch? And what does Jesse's dad think about the A-Rod play?

[RayFink1e]

I would think this happens more then just this once. He yelled "Ha", that hardly sounds like "I got it"

[blueberryale77]

http://yankees.lohudblogs.com/

Somebody posted this link in the ARod cheating on his wife thread and it now has an entry about this incident... check out who the 3B was!:eek:


The Blue Jays are not pleased with Alex Rodriguez. They said he yelled, “Mine!” as he passed behind Howie Clark in the ninth inning. Clark backed off the pop-up and it led to the Yankees scoring three runs.

“I’ve never seen it happen, maybe I’m naive but I thought it was a bush-league play. That’s not Yankee pride right there,” Toronto manager John Gibbons said.

Clark said that in all his time in baseball, he had never experience such a thing.

Rodriguez said he yelled, “Ha!” because, “I was excited running around third base. I don’t know what my intention was.”

Why he would be excited running around third base as the final out was going to be made is uncertain.

[twoBshorty]

I don't see any language like that in the MLB rulebook.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/runner_7.jsp

In my opinion, yelling "Mine!" is an attempt to hinder a fielder and is therefore interference. But I hate A-Rod, so I'm biased. MLB needs to make a ruling on this.

I think it's poor sportsmanship. There are many things you can do to win a game, but that doesn't mean you should actually do them. And can you imagine if this kind of stuff becomes acceptable? It will be absolute chaos on every fly ball. Fielders won't be able to trust "I got it!" and everyone will start running into each other and getting hurt. That in and of itself is enough for me to give this a thumbs-down.

[Skywalker76]

I think it's classless. Sorry.

[DrungoHazewood]

Let me ask you something - is the hidden ball trick classless? Isn't that an attempt to pull one over on someone, trying to win by means besides your skills as a baseball player?

What about catchers (or any other fielder) blocking the plate or base before they actually have possession of the ball? That's actually illegal by the rules, but is never called. Shouldn't a good sport admit he broke the rules and insist the runner be called safe?

What about Chuck Knoblauck's phantom catch/tag that kept Lonnie Smith from scoring in the '91 Series while the ball was bouncing around the outfield?

For that matter, shouldn't an outfielder be ashamed when he dives for a ball, short-hops it, but comes up with it in his glove and tries his darnest to convince the ump he really caught it? Isn't that unsportsmanlike?

How are any of these things different than what ARod did? If you want ARod to play the game as a gentleman, like it's a cricket match at Lord's in 1878, shouldn't you apply that standard to all deceptive and/or technically illegal plays?

[bgfield]

I don't see any language like that in the MLB rulebook.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/runner_7.jsp

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/definition_terms_2.jsp

[bgfield]

Let me ask you something - is the hidden ball trick classless? Isn't that an attempt to pull one over on someone, trying to win by means besides your skills as a baseball player?

What about catchers (or any other fielder) blocking the plate or base before they actually have possession of the ball? That's actually illegal by the rules, but is never called. Shouldn't a good sport admit he broke the rules and insist the runner be called safe?

What about Chuck Knoblauck's phantom catch/tag that kept Lonnie Smith from scoring in the '91 Series while the ball was bouncing around the outfield?

For that matter, shouldn't an outfielder be ashamed when he dives for a ball, short-hops it, but comes up with it in his glove and tries his darnest to convince the ump he really caught it? Isn't that unsportsmanlike?

How are any of these things different than what ARod did? If you want ARod to play the game as a gentleman, like it's a cricket match at Lord's in 1878, shouldn't you apply that standard to all deceptive and/or technically illegal plays?What Rodriguez did is a little different. He interfered with a play being made, period. If this starts happening on a frequent basis, you're probably gonna see a lot of popups fall in for base hits.

Blocking the plate before you get the ball is something that's always bothered me, too. I never cared for that. I didn't realize it was against the rules; if that's the case, that rule should be enforced.

[66-70-83-??]

Poor sportsmanship or smart baseball ?

POOR SPORTSMANSHIP, plain and simple.

There is a difference between this stunt and a hidden ball trick.

AROD interfered with the play.

I coach a little league travel team. We teach the kids to call each other off in the field. We teach them smart baserunning. We tell them to keep their eye on the ball (ie hidden ball- make sure 1B throws it back).

We don't teach them to scream "I got it" as they are running the bases when there is a pop-up. :rolleyes:

That is unnatural and cheap bush-league tactics. That would be like yelling "swing" to little leaguers at the wrong time when they are at the plate. Believe me- it will work sometimes.

Someone suggested that the 3rd basemen has to be able to instantly recognize the "sound" of his teammates voice :confused: ? That is ridiculous to ask any player, while concentrating on the ball, to be able to drown out all the other crowd/external noise, AND be able to tell one voice (teammate) from another (opponent).

[glenn__davis]

How in the world is this poor sportsmanship?

I'm with Mackus. It wasn't really a smart play, it just happened to work. I see nothing wrong with it, though.

[MChance]

I'd love to see how you all would change your tune if A-Rod did this to Mora ... or Markakis, if he was playing third base for some strange reason.

Classless, un-sportsman-like. It's vintage A-Rod. I wouldn't expect anything different from him. Personally, although it wasn't as direct, this is very similar to his swat. He's interfering with a play being made. Totally different than an OFer trying to convince an umpire that he made a catch when he did not. That's a judgement call for the umpire. Swatting a ball or yelling "mine" when rounding the bases is not trying to influence someone's judgement. It's blatant (assuming you are not deaf).

Nevertheless, all of these "tricks" is just more reason to implement instant replay in MLB.

[Why Not?]

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/definition_terms_2.jsp

Thanks. A-Rod's shout certainly seems to run afoul of this definition of interference. It's interesting that nothing that specific is mentioned in the expanded discussion of baserunner interference. I suppose that's because this sort of thing hardly ever happens.

I wonder if this will be more specifically addressed in the rules from now on. Of course, if A-Rod gets a fastball in his ear, I think others will be hesitant to try his little trick.

[Leitch]

Wow, nobody else thinks that's just funny as hell?

I laughed my ass off when I saw the replay.

[Mad Mark]

Miss Pay-Rod never misses an opportunity to look like a silly, silly girl on the field. Maybe she's trying to get Derek Christ to let her sleep over again.

Seriously, for someone who is so concerned with "image" Miss Pay-Rod just can't keep herself away from controversy.

Typical "Yankee class", typical Miss Pay-Rod baseball.

[MP]

Do you think Ripken ever would have done that? And if your answer is "no", why do you think that?

[tennOsfan]

I consider this act to be as "smart" as Ty Cobb sharpening his spikes to slash his opponents. Yeah, it worked, but Cobb certainly made himself a poor sport.

ARod is developing a history of this junk. The play a couple weeks ago where he WAAAYYYY overslid second and forearmed the second baseman in the chest ... the playoffs where he batted the ball away during a tag on his run to first. Now this.

MLB umpires need to start paying attention to him. They missed his interference on the slide at second, and now they miss a verbal interference. I umpire high school ball, and while I know it's not on the same level as the pros, we are always reminded that teams are not to benefit from verbally confusing the other side. Is ARod such a poor player that he has to resort to trickery in order to win?

What ARod did was wrong, morally and by the rulebook. What if Bobby Jones knocked his opponent's golf ball back into the bushes while the opponent wasn't looking? Or what if he yelled during the opponent's backswing? He'd have been declared an ungentlemanly jerk. And don't give me any junk about golf being different from baseball -- a person should play with a certain level of class in any sport (unless it's Conrad Dobler blocking a defensive lineman in unconventional ways - LOL).

[ledzepp8]

Yeah I think it's pretty classless and it's hardly the same as the hidden ball trick or trapping a line drive or missing a tag, etc.

Arod's excuse was pretty lame also. He said that he gets that 3-4 times a week in pop ups by the dugout with people yelling stuff at him and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. There's a big difference between a dugout full of guys yelling stuff at you when you know exactly who it is and someone running up behind you in the field yelling something that sounds coincidentally similar to "Got it" in your ear.

[tennOsfan]

Arod's excuse was pretty lame also. He said that he gets that 3-4 times a week in pop ups by the dugout with people yelling stuff at him and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. There's a big difference between a dugout full of guys yelling stuff at you when you know exactly who it is and someone running up behind you in the field yelling something that sounds coincidentally similar to "Got it" in your ear.

Exactly. ARod's just a jerk, and finally we're figuring it out.

[RayFink1e]

He yelled "Ha" not "I got it". The third baseman should of made the catch. I cant believe this doesnt happen more often. And what is the third baseman gonna do when a stadium is packed and he is chasing one down the line with a right fielder coming too. The whole crowd is gonna be yelling stuff at him

[oriole_way]

I don't know what the baseball "code" is for this type of play. It would be great if someone asked someone like Brooks Robinson if anyone ever did this when he played.

Some have compared this to ARod slapping the ball out of the Boston pitcher's mitt a few years ago. That's completely different. That involves physical contact. (By the way, I never understood why a catcher would be allowed to block the plate and as a consequence, then the runner is allowed to run the catcher over. This isn't football.)

Anyway, I kind of thought Arod's most recent play as more analogous to a fielder deking a runner, except in reverse. I could understand if Arod physically interfered with the fielder by getting in his way, making contact with him or obstructing his vision, but this wasn't the case.

Anyone remember when Alan Wiggins was an Oriole and he was duped at first base? Wiggins was on first base and the pitcher threw over to first. The first baseman then simulated throwing the ball back to the pitcher but actually kept the baseball in his glove. Alan then proceeded to take a lead and the first baseman tagged him out.

[geschinger]

Yeah I think it's pretty classless and it's hardly the same as the hidden ball trick or trapping a line drive or missing a tag, etc.


It is different then some of the example you list above but how is it different from other forms of deception that are applauded when they work? Fielders use deception all the time in an attempt to trick baserunners into making a baserunning mistake. I don't see why one form of deception is any worse than another. I have no problem w/what ARod did.

[BillySmith]

I don't like it, but I'm having a little trouble figuring out exactly why. Isn't there a chance for injury with this kind of foolishness? If either Clark or McDonald realize what just happened and try to recover to make the play, they could find themselves in a dangerous situation.

With the hidden ball trick, phantom tags, that sort of thing, then shame on you for not being aware, or for not having your coach make you aware. But this is just cheating. Hell, he might as well as run into Clark so he couldn't catch it. Bush.

[byrdz]

This is the third such action by Arod: the glove incident, slide/elbow into the ribcage incident and now this. Bush league, poor sportsmanship and I can think a few other words that describe these types of actions but can't use them here.

The Yankees are always saying how they are doing what it takes to win but they've always done it with at least some class, now they are losing both at the same time. Can't say I feel sorry for them.:002_sbiggrin:

[DrungoHazewood]

I wonder how many folks would join the "ARod is a Jerk" mob if he was making $750k a year and playing for the Brewers?

I'd guess it's about as many as would notice Brian Shouse coming out of a hotel with an escort.

[ScottieBaseball]

I don't see any language like that in the MLB rulebook.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/runner_7.jsp

It's under section 2.00, definition of terms. It's from the definition of "interference". Unfortunately it's a judgment call. If it "happens all the time" like A-Rod described, do you think the Jays' 3B flipped out because he dropped it? I think A-Rod's full of it. It was bush league and goes right along with the slap. I'm sure anyone who played baseball in high school and beyond would agree. You just don't do that.

[ledzepp8]

I wonder how many folks would join the "ARod is a Jerk" mob if he was making $750k a year and playing for the Brewers?

I'd guess it's about as many as would notice Brian Shouse coming out of a hotel with an escort.
I couldn't care less who he came out of a hotel with and I fail to see what in that picture leads anyone to believe that he was fooling around with that woman. Also I don't necessarily think he's a jerk but I do think what he did was crappy. And I can guarantee that if Howie Clark had been the one running the bases you would still have a three page(and counting)thread on it.

[ledzepp8]

It is different then some of the example you list above but how is it different from other forms of deception that are applauded when they work? Fielders use deception all the time in an attempt to trick baserunners into making a baserunning mistake. I don't see why one form of deception is any worse than another. I have no problem w/what ARod did.

I fail to see how deking a baserunner out on a flyball is the same as what ARod did. What the fielder does isn't directly effecting the baserunner. The runner has the ability to see the play. When a fielder is trying to make a play on a ball and a baserunner comes up behind mouthing something...they don't have that same luxury.

[MP]

I completely disagree with the obtuse notion that says "Hey there's trickery in baseball, it's just part of the game" as if we're slapping an "anything goes" approach to deception. There's an ill-defined boundary in baseball, a collection of things that "you just don't do". All sports have unwritten rules but baseball is the king. The boundary is where actions cross over into the land of "cheap, bush-league crap". And there isn't one rule, there's isn't a clean blanket statement to define that boundary, or as some have done, to pretend it's not there at all. That's the beauty of baseball, nothing's simple - it's all very human and subjective, self-policed with unwritten rules and the payback for breaking them.

What Arod did was bush league crap, and there will be payback someday.

[geschinger]

I fail to see how deking a baserunner out on a flyball is the same as what ARod did. What the fielder does isn't directly effecting the baserunner. The runner has the ability to see the play. When a fielder is trying to make a play on a ball and a baserunner comes up behind mouthing something...they don't have that same luxury.

Sure it is. If an infielder is successful at deceiving a baserunner it has an effect on what that baserunner does. They end up doing something they otherwise would not have. In the same way ARod successfully deceived Clark and it had an effect on what he did.

[bgfield]

I don't like it, but I'm having a little trouble figuring out exactly why. Isn't there a chance for injury with this kind of foolishness? If either Clark or McDonald realize what just happened and try to recover to make the play, they could find themselves in a dangerous situation.I was thinking this too. If this becomes commonplace, because umps don't do anything about it and it does (apparently) work occasionally, you might have infielders ignoring each other's "I GOT IT!"'s as they both go for the ball and collide.

Seriously, it's against the rules. I posted the rule about interference and the link to the mlb.com rulebook page. If this doesn't count as "confusing" the fielder trying to make a play, I don't know what does. There's no justification for what he did.

[bgfield]

I wonder how many folks would join the "ARod is a Jerk" mob if he was making $750k a year and playing for the Brewers?

I'd guess it's about as many as would notice Brian Shouse coming out of a hotel with an escort.

I didn't use to dislike Rodriguez. I think he gets a bad rap because 1) He makes a ton of money (not his fault) 2) He's a Yankee 3) Yankee fans expect too much of him. Bottom line is he's the best player in the game today and one of the best of all time. I'd been a fan of his, but I've lost a lot of respect for him. It seems he'll do whatever it takes, no matter how right or wrong it may be, to win. The gloveslapping thing was stupid but could be dismissed as him just getting lost in the excitement and not thinking. This is now the second time he's been in the middle of a debate like this, and while this isn't as bad as the glove-slapping, it was done with the same intent. Win no matter what.

I'm not a fan of that attitude myself, and I find myself less of a fan of Rodriguez now. I don't give a damn what team he plays for or how much he makes. It's wrong.

[bgfield]

Sure it is. If an infielder is successful at deceiving a baserunner it has an effect on what that baserunner does. They end up doing something they otherwise would not have. In the same way ARod successfully deceived Clark and it had an effect on what he did.

It's different. Clark was trying to make a play and Rodriguez screwed him up. Deking a runner is just like bluffing in poker. The runner can advance or stay where he is or do whatever he wants to do based on how he sees the situation. It doesn't interfere with his running the bases.

[square634]

Deking a runner is just like bluffing in poker. The runner can advance or stay where he is or do whatever he wants to do based on how he sees the situation. It doesn't interfere with his running the bases.

Likewise, Clark could have done whatever he wanted to do, but got tricked into letting it drop. However, because it appears A-Rod's yell was apparently against the interference rules, it shouldn't be allowed. If it weren't against the rules, I wouldn't say it was a bush league move.

[sloppyO177]

I don't see any language like that in the MLB rulebook.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/runner_7.jsp


Rule 7.08(b) Comment: A runner who is adjudged to have hindered a fielder who is attempting to make a play on a batted ball is out whether it was intentional or not.
If, however, the runner has contact with a legally occupied base when he hinders the fielder, he shall not be called out unless, in the umpire’s judgment, such hindrance, whether it occurs on fair or foul territory, is intentional. If the umpire declares the hindrance intentional, the following penalty shall apply: With less than two out, the umpire shall declare both the runner and batter out. With two out, the umpire shall declare the batter out.

By the letter of the law, I would have to say Stray Rod interfered with the fielder. Either way, he will take a fastball between the numbers at least once this season from the Jays.

[BillySmith]

I didn't use to dislike Rodriguez. I think he gets a bad rap because 1) He makes a ton of money (not his fault) 2) He's a Yankee 3) Yankee fans expect too much of him. Bottom line is he's the best player in the game today and one of the best of all time. I'd been a fan of his, but I've lost a lot of respect for him. It seems he'll do whatever it takes, no matter how right or wrong it may be, to win. The gloveslapping thing was stupid but could be dismissed as him just getting lost in the excitement and not thinking. This is now the second time he's been in the middle of a debate like this, and while this isn't as bad as the glove-slapping, it was done with the same intent. Win no matter what.

I'm not a fan of that attitude myself, and I find myself less of a fan of Rodriguez now. I don't give a damn what team he plays for or how much he makes. It's wrong.

http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47397

Your post makes it sound like you weren't aware of this little doozy.

[geschinger]

Rule 7.08(b) Comment: A runner who is adjudged to have hindered a fielder who is attempting to make a play on a batted ball is out whether it was intentional or not.
If, however, the runner has contact with a legally occupied base when he hinders the fielder, he shall not be called out unless, in the umpire’s judgment, such hindrance, whether it occurs on fair or foul territory, is intentional. If the umpire declares the hindrance intentional, the following penalty shall apply: With less than two out, the umpire shall declare both the runner and batter out. With two out, the umpire shall declare the batter out.

By the letter of the law, I would have to say Stray Rod interfered with the fielder. Either way, he will take a fastball between the numbers at least once this season from the Jays.

It doesn't fit, one can't stretch the definition of hinder enough to cover what ARod did. ARod did not hinder Clark from catching the ball. In no way did he prevent Clark from catching the ball he simply tricked him into not trying to catch the ball.

[bagman]

Not very smart for a player who has trouble with infield popups. Wanna bet he gets yelled at next time he is struggling with a popup and a baserunner is between second and third ? The guy is a punk plain and simple. I put this right up there with trash talking, it is not needed if you have confidence on your skills.

[Mark Carver]

Likewise, Clark could have done whatever he wanted to do, but got tricked into letting it drop. However, because it appears A-Rod's yell was apparently against the interference rules, it shouldn't be allowed. If it weren't against the rules, I wouldn't say it was a bush league move.

There are other rules that are not literally enforced, like a catcher blocking the plate when he doesn't have the ball...

[sloppyO177]

Do you think Ripken ever would have done that? And if your answer is "no", why do you think that?

I would say Cal would never have pulled a stunt like this because in his 20 years of baseball, no one accused Cal of playing the game the "wrong way"

If you ask all of the guys who played against Cal during his career, people have only good things to say about him. I have no evidence to back this statement up, but I seriously doubt Cal was thrown at for something like this.

There is a reason he and his dad wrote a book called The Ripken Way.

[MP]

It doesn't fit, one can't stretch the definition of hinder enough to cover what ARod did. ARod did not hinder Clark from catching the ball. In no way did he prevent Clark from catching the ball he simply tricked him into not trying to catch the ball.

Statements like that are exactly why the courts had to adopt the specific phrasing of "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"! :D

So people couldn't technically lie even while technically telling the truth.

Intentions, gesch. It's all about intentions. But we might as well put it to bed, calls like this are subjective. It comes down to the individuals take on it and their own personal guidelines of sportsmanship. And if you don't think it was wrong, and I do, there's really nothing else to be said about it.

But Arod's a cheap punk! :D

[GeorgiaBird]

I dislike ARod quite a bit, and as such I really want to be annoyed at this. But honestly I can't bring myself to do it. I see why some players would say they would not do it, and I can see all the arguments suggesting that doing this can lead to injury. But at the end of the day seems to me that Drungo is correct... if this was almost anyone other than ARod, no one would be talking about it. And the reason why, in my mind anyway, is that the action by itself is not that big of a deal.

[CrimsonTribe]

Hilarious. A Ferris Bueller type move if you ask me (I just watched it last night). This "right way/wrong way" to play the game stuff is crap and totally subjective. ARod tried something, it worked, and he didn't get called for it. The Blue Jays are pissed b/c they look stupid. If it happened to the O's I'd probably get pissed too, but I think it would be more at the 3B for being dumb than ARod.

[DrungoHazewood]

There is a reason he and his dad wrote a book called The Ripken Way.

Yea, everybody would have looked at them funny if they'd called it The Rayford Way.

[Leitch]

Hilarious if you ask me. A Ferris Bueller type move if you ask me (I just watched it last night). This "right way/wrong way" to play the game stuff is crap and totally subjective. ARod tried something, it worked, and he didn't get called for it. The Blue Jays are pissed b/c they look stupid. If it happened to the O's I'd probably get pissed too, but I think it would be more at the 3B for being dumb than ARod.

Absolutely.

It'll probably end up on a blooper reel next year and be almost as funny was when Nook Logan or whoever got hit square in the nuts with a pitch.

[bagman]

I dislike ARod quite a bit, and as such I really want to be annoyed at this. But honestly I can't bring myself to do it. I see why some players would say they would not do it, and I can see all the arguments suggesting that doing this can lead to injury. But at the end of the day seems to me that Drungo is correct... if this was almost anyone other than ARod, no one would be talking about it. And the reason why, in my mind anyway, is that the action by itself is not that big of a deal.

If in last nights O's game John Buck yelled at Melmo and it cost the O's a couple of runs everyone on here would be pissed and want Buck's head. I could care less what the media thinks. It disgusts me regardless of who the player is. A punk is a punk.

[CrimsonTribe]

If in last nights O's game John Buck yelled at Melmo and it cost the O's a couple of runs everyone on here would be pissed and want Buck's head. I could care less what the media thinks. It disgusts me regardless of who the player is. A punk is a punk.

I'd want MelMo's head.

[bagman]

I'd want MelMo's head.

That's your problem.

[jmorgan]

it was a smart play and I it should done more often. I been a Arod fan but i dont think it was poor sportman ship it was just smart. The fielder should have still made that play.

[CrimsonTribe]

That's your problem.

How exactly is that a problem? I'm one of the only ones without a problem with this here.

[rolliefingers]

I have no problem with it. He made no attempt to physically interfere with the fielder or the ball. It's not the most classy play in the world, but he's trying to win a game.

[jmorgan]

He thought someone was calling for the ball.
If someone was calling for it they would yell:" I got it!"
NOT
"HA!".

Thats just a play the Bluejays should have made. They just wanted a excuse.

[byrdz]

Several more points I want to make on this:

1) If you go to MLB.com and watch the footage on the main page ARod clearly says something like "mine" while he passes by the fielder knowing there's another Jay fielder nearby.

2) When ARod was asked he denied it, now he's a liar as well.

3) While I hate ARod and his antics, in this case I don't care as much because they beat the one team that's closest to us in the standings. Let those teams beat up on each other and keep them as far away from us in the AL East standings as possible.

[Mad Mark]

The next questions are:
1) Who on the Jays pitching staff gets the honor of drilling Miss Pay-Rod?
2) Will every other team now have runners screaming "mine" in her ear as they head to third?

[byrdz]

The next questions are:
1) Who on the Jays pitching staff gets the honor of drilling Miss Pay-Rod?

Burnett and his fastball.



The next questions are:
2) Will every other team now have runners screaming "mine" in her ear as they head to third?

Yes and Mora screams it to ARod for the win. Only in that case, the Yankees would get the interference call.

[norfolkid]

I don't think Arod did anything wrong. That is just part of the game. As a matter of fact, for those of you saying he was a jerk to do that,i could argue that the infielders should have been prepared rehearsed pop up dialogue in another language.

[norfolkid]

Attempt to bobble the ball in the outfield until he is close enough in to throw out a runner trying to tag? No OF fly, right? If it ain't written that you can't, then you can.

[bgfield]

http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47397

Your post makes it sound like you weren't aware of this little doozy.

I heard it but never saw it, by the time I got around to clicking the link it was removed from youtube. But yeah, it sounded pretty bad too.

[JTrea81]

Didn't Markakis do that just a few nights ago? ;) :p

[Why Not?]

I don't think Arod did anything wrong. That is just part of the game. As a matter of fact, for those of you saying he was a jerk to do that,i could argue that the infielders should have been prepared rehearsed pop up dialogue in another language.

The reason they don't have a rehearsed pop-up dialogue is because nobody pulls that crap. It's an etiquette thing at the very least. It's just sort of gay. If this sort of thing is OK, why shouldn't base runners just stand there and shout in the guy's ear every time there is a pop-up in the infield?

[bgfield]

Good idea. They better start teaching little leaguers how to juggle ;)

[eldeeds99]

We will not do such a thing because baseball is a gentleman's game, which is rich in tradition and character. Many great men have played this game like Barry Bonds, Ty Cobb, Albert Belle, Jason Giambi and Pete Rose. Using trickery to win, or cheating in baseball would go against all these great men set for the game.

[KLINE]

WOW! I mean they do teach you cheat/bend the rules when your young (i.e. ghost tag by SS at 2nd during the dp, getting rid of the back line in the box) but this might be a little extreme. But like you said, it's not written so it's really not cheating. I guess the fear would be that you'd drop the ball and then everyone is safe.

[Icebird]

Because you'll probably get a fastball in the ear hole next time you go to the plate, that's why!

Paybacks are... well, you know... ; )

[Sports Guy]

Clark is just full of excuses...Bottom line is you catch that ball...The blame falls on his head and no one else.

[Sports Guy]

The blame falls on Clark...There is no question about that.

[nadecir]

Attempt to bobble the ball in the outfield until he is close enough in to throw out a runner trying to tag? No OF fly, right? If it ain't written that you can't, then you can.Because the baseball rulebook specifically allows the runner to run as soon as the fielder FIRST touches the ball. The fielder gains no advantage by juggling the ball. From the major league rule book:


A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player, or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball. It is not a catch if a fielder touches a fly ball which then hits a member of the offensive team or an umpire and then is caught by another defensive player. If the fielder has made the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch, the ball shall be adjudged to have been caught. In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional.
Rule 2.00 (Catch) Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball.

[eldeeds99]

Clark is just full of excuses...Bottom line is you catch that ball...The blame falls on his head and no one else.

I couldn't agree more.

[byrdz]

Clark is just full of excuses...Bottom line is you catch that ball...The blame falls on his head and no one else.


I guess Arroyo should have held onto the ball just a bit harder in anticipation of ARod's swipe and Pedroia should have jumped off the 2nd base bag about 10 feet in anticipation of ARod's elbow to the ribs. True they take some responsibility, but that doesn't make ARod any less bush league.

[CrimsonTribe]

The reason they don't have a rehearsed pop-up dialogue is because nobody pulls that crap. It's an etiquette thing at the very least. It's just sort of gay. If this sort of thing is OK, why shouldn't base runners just stand there and shout in the guy's ear every time there is a pop-up in the infield?

I'm not a fan of the etiquette rationale. This is baseball not a dinner party. Bottom line, it was funny when Willy Mays Hayes did it and it's still funny now. ;)

[CrimsonTribe]

Because the baseball rulebook specifically allows the runner to run as soon as the fielder FIRST touches the ball. The fielder gains no advantage by juggling the ball. From the major league rule book:

Good call. Even so, it seems a bit risky anyway.

[Fairfax Bird]

Clark is just full of excuses...Bottom line is you catch that ball...The blame falls on his head and no one else.

Well you are right, but that is a punk move by A-Rod, if it wasn't you would see this on a regular basis and the Blue Jays wouldn't have been so pissed.

[srh523]

How many times in AROD career has he done this stupid bush league crap!

[bgfield]

The blame falls on Clark...There is no question about that.

Yes there is.

[Sports Guy]

I guess Arroyo should have held onto the ball just a bit harder in anticipation of ARod's swipe and Pedroia should have jumped off the 2nd base bag about 10 feet in anticipation of ARod's elbow to the ribs. True they take some responsibility, but that doesn't make ARod any less bush league.Those 2 incidents are not even in the same zip code as this.

[Sports Guy]

Yes there is.

No rational question about it.

How many fans yell i got it or scream to stop a player from catching a ball and the fans are right on the field nowadays.

Whether it is baseball etiquette or not is irrelevant...The bottom line is you make that play if you are a major leaguer.

[bgfield]

Well you are right, but that is a punk move by A-Rod, if it wasn't you would see this on a regular basis and the Blue Jays wouldn't have been so pissed.

He's not right. How many times does this need to be said? There's a specific rule against what Rodriguez did.

INTERFERENCE
(a) Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play. If the umpire declares the batter, batter- runner, or a runner out for interference, all other runners shall return to the last base that was in the judgment of the umpire, legally touched at the time of the interference, unless otherwise provided by these rules.

Again, if what Alex Rodriguez did isn't considered "confusing" the fielder, I don't know what is.

[SilentJames]

What A-Rod dd was what elementary tee-ball kids do and then get yelled at for.

Biggest effiing child in the game.

[coruscatingly]

2) Will every other team now have runners screaming "mine" in her ear as they head to third?

<b>"That play happens to me three or four times a week, except it's not at third base, it's over in foul territory by the dugout," Rodriguez said.</b>

[byrdz]

This isn't from a high schooler but from a grown adult, a professional, a millionaire that supposed to be on a team with more class than most. That's the funny part to me, not what resulted from it but what he did. Sad and funny at the same time.

Let's put this into a real life situation where you ask you child to sweep the floor and instead of him putting the dust into the trash he pushes it under the carpet out of pure laziness or "desperation" as ARod puts it. Yeah sure the floor is clean but he cheated his way through the work. My kids would have a different role model and know that this isn't acceptable behavior at any age.

As someone else stated, baseball is a classy sport because of the etiquette. ARod has violated that etiquette on more than one occasion. That's my beef with it, not what rules he may have broken. Winning at any cost is not winning. That's my opinion and sorry for the emotional rant but I feel strongly about this and I have no kids.

[jmorgan]

Several more points I want to make on this:

1) If you go to MLB.com and watch the footage on the main page ARod clearly says something like "mine" while he passes by the fielder knowing there's another Jay fielder nearby.


i dont know about that, it did look like "ha" to me. Most of the sports channels are saying the same. But hey we will never know.

[bgfield]

No rational question about it.

How many fans yell i got it or scream to stop a player from catching a ball and the fans are right on the field nowadays.

Whether it is baseball etiquette or not is irrelevant...The bottom line is you make that play if you are a major leaguer.

Give me a break. A fan yelling "I got it" is different than a player who's right behind you. Not only that, the fans aren't there getting a paycheck. They shouldn't do it either, but there's no rule preventing them from doing so.

Secondly, it's not etiquette, it's a rule. Go back to page one, I copied and pasted from the rule book. What Rodriguez did is considered interference. Period.

[El Gordo]

His $200 mil. team of all stars is 13.5 games out. If thats what he thinks it takes to win, I have to feel sorry for him.

[cindyluvsbrady]

I learned to hate the yanks after the Jeff Maier nightmare.:mad: Arod thinks like the rest of the evil ones that rules DO NOT apply to them.Sportsmanship:eek: They dont know what that means.
I think Arod should be fined alot of $$$$$ and suspended.
I want to add I do have respect for some of the yanks of long long long ago like Lou Gerhig.
Arod makes me gag:p

[Goop]

I don't agree with what he did. I know some people say that stuff like that is part of the game, but I don't like it. I think it's kind of cheap.

[SilentJames]

Seriously, I have seen little leaguers get benched for less. Just because its legal doesn't make it right.

And its legality is in question. My favorite thing is that he admitted it and basically said "we need to do anything to win." Total crap. I hope he got plunked tonight.

[byrdz]

And its legality is in question. My favorite thing is that he admitted it and basically said "we need to do anything to win." Total crap. I hope he got plunked tonight.

Yeah and that was after the game during the interview. During the game he was asked and said plainly said no.

[mark_beckens]

Because the baseball rulebook specifically allows the runner to run as soon as the fielder FIRST touches the ball. The fielder gains no advantage by juggling the ball. From the major league rule book:

I was going to say it but you beat me to it. You can juggle it all you want, as soon as the fielder touches the ball the runner can go.

[Why Not?]

He's not right. How many times does this need to be said? There's a specific rule against what Rodriguez did.

INTERFERENCE
(a) Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play. If the umpire declares the batter, batter- runner, or a runner out for interference, all other runners shall return to the last base that was in the judgment of the umpire, legally touched at the time of the interference, unless otherwise provided by these rules.

Again, if what Alex Rodriguez did isn't considered "confusing" the fielder, I don't know what is.

In reading the definition of interference AND the specific rules defining baserunner interference, I think the "confuse" part of the rule refers to doing stuff like running the bases backwards or having three runners gather around a base (not sure why you would do that!).

I don't think there's anything in the rule book about this because it just isn't done.

[oriole_way]

By the way, this IS considered interference by the rulebook:

INTERFERENCE
(a) Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play. If the umpire declares the batter, batter- runner, or a runner out for interference, all other runners shall return to the last base that was in the judgment of the umpire, legally touched at the time of the interference, unless otherwise provided by these rules.

So yeah, that's why you don't see guys trying this more often.

By this rule, why is a take out slide at 2nd base in an attempt to break up a double play considered legal?

Isn't that interfering with the fielder?

[Mu'ayyidSaafir]

Hey those of you saying that it was a smart, good play, there's someone who disagrees with you: A-Rod.


Q: They claim that you yelled, "Mine!"

A: No. I would never do that. Now, maybe that's a little bit out of line.

So A-Rod HIMSELF thinks that it's "out of line" to deceive the fielder by imitating a fellow fielder.


A: Intentional?!

Q: Well, what made you yell out "Ha?"

A: I don't know, I was just excited rounding third base.


Yep, nothing more exciting for a MLB veteran than rounding third base... on a two out pop-up that's almost certain to be caught... in a game you're going to win anyway.

So A-Rod thinks that deceiving an infielder in the manner discussed here would indeed be a cheap, out of line play. What he did, he says, was not actually intended to deceive. Now, that's about as convincing as his insistence that his slap was "just part of his natural running motion," or, for that matter, Rocket's famous "I thought it was the ball" explanation for chucking a bat shard at Mike Piazza. But it's pretty comedic that A-Rod himself denies doing what many people here are praising him for. Maybe that's a sign that it's not so praiseworthy?

Oh, one more thing:



A: I was past third.


Blatant lie.

You can hear all these quotes for yourself here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iErO9MZclDc&NR=1).

[tennOsfan]

No rational question about it.

How many fans yell i got it or scream to stop a player from catching a ball and the fans are right on the field nowadays.


But those fans aren't ON THE INFIELD. The direction and closeness of the words makes all the difference in this case.

Sure, Clark should've made the catch anyway, but ARod committed an act that should have been called interference. In the interpretations of the interference rule that I've learned (of course, it's only high school level), you call him out for that.

[tennOsfan]

By this rule, why is a take out slide at 2nd base in an attempt to break up a double play considered legal?

Isn't that interfering with the fielder?

That's an interpretation that MLB umpires have made over the years.

You can't just read the rulebook and say, "There's the rule." I'm sure MLB has a case book as well (which high school and college have in every sport) that gives umpteen scenarios where you analyze how each rule is to be interpreted.

[bgfield]

By this rule, why is a take out slide at 2nd base in an attempt to break up a double play considered legal?

Isn't that interfering with the fielder?

Good point, but I never thought it's a good justification that just because one rule isn't enforced, another shouldn't be either.

[66-70-83-??]

FWIW-

Gammons was talking about this play today on ESPN.

He says that there are some things that you just don't do.

One of them is yell "mine" as a baserunner. Another "no-no" that crosses the line would be for a 3B coach to yell "cut" to fool the cut-off man into cutting off a throw to a base/home.

Bottom line: AROD did a cheap, bush-league stunt.

[MP]

FWIW-

Gammons was talking about this play today on ESPN.

He says that there are some things that you just don't do.

One of them is yell "mine" as a baserunner. Another "no-no" that crosses the line would be for a 3B coach to yell "cut" to fool the cut-off man into cutting off a throw to a base/home.

Bottom line: AROD did a cheap, bush-league stunt.

I completely agree with you.

Kinda seems like most people don't recognize that line that you mentioned though. The approach of many here has been "If it helps you win, then it's smart." End of discussion. Like they're flipping through the rulebook, saying "Show me where it says anything about sportsmanship. I don't see that anywhere."

[PDog]

Jim Palmer's take on it:


"It worked, didn't it?" said the three-time Cy Young winner. "You're trying to win, aren't you? The guy's an easy target, come on. I don't know what he yelled, but they are underachieving and you do what you've got to do. Big deal. It's just baseball. What are you going to do next, say, 'I'm sorry, I threw inside. I intimidated you.' ? There are just certain things you do. It's survival of the fittest. He yelled. They're desperate. They're playing like dogs. They need to do something like that. Maybe that's going to turn it around for them like Jason Varitek sticking his catcher's mitt in A-Rod's mouth."

From http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/06/01/did_a_rod_put_foot_in_mouth/

I love Bonds reaction to it:

"Go ask Alex," he said. "Leave me the -- -- out of it. Not my problem."

From http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/ny-spmside0601,0,6794087.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines

[oriole_way]

Good point, but I never thought it's a good justification that just because one rule isn't enforced, another shouldn't be either.

But in this case it's the same rule, for two different situations.

I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other on the play, but if that rule isn't called on the take out slide for whatever reason, then it shouldn't be cited ardently for this play. It comes down to what the umpires think.

Speaking of which, I don't think anyone asked the umpire if he heard Arod and/or what the umpire would have ruled if he had heard Arod.

[MP]

Good article Pdog, I hadn't seen that! Full of good reaction.

"I'm surprised and I think it's bush," said Johnny Pesky. "You don't do that. If the umpire was on the ball, he'd have probably called him out and kicked the guy out of the ballgame. I never heard of such a thing. I'm surprised at A-Rod. He didn't strike me as being that kind of player, but for God sakes, he's done so many bush things this year, I'm a little suspect of him now."

Atta boy, Pesky.

[ScottieBaseball]

When I was 16 playing club baseball, had an opposing baserunner pulled the same stunt A-Rod did, he was getting one in the earhole his very next at-bat.

[oriole_way]

FWIW-

Gammons was talking about this play today on ESPN.

He says that there are some things that you just don't do.

One of them is yell "mine" as a baserunner. Another "no-no" that crosses the line would be for a 3B coach to yell "cut" to fool the cut-off man into cutting off a throw to a base/home.

Bottom line: AROD did a cheap, bush-league stunt.

Why is Peter Gammons an authority? He's a baseball reporter (who has Red Sox ties to boot).

I mentioned this earlier, but I would be interested to hear what a former lifelong 3rd baseman like Brooks Robinson would say about the play.

If Brooks said that nothing like that ever happened when he played and that he doesn't really condone it then that means something.

If not Brooks, then any 3rd baseman who had a long career, whether its George Brett, Mike Schmidt, Doug Decinces, Bill Madlock, Ron Cey etc.

If these guys say that its a bush league play (for whatever reason), then I'd be more inclined to listen.

[NJOriolesFan]

Bottom line is that it is against the rules.

[oriole_way]

Bottom line is that it is against the rules.

What rule?

The same rule that isn't enforced on a take out slide to prevent a double play.

Then why didn't the umps call him out. Nobody has even interviewed an umpire to ask whether it's illegal.

If an ump states that he didn't hear Arod but if he had then he would have ruled the batter out, then fine.

[oriole_way]

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070601/NEWS/706010432/1254

Nothing in the Official Baseball Rules governs what players can say, although the possibility of future retaliation usually sets limits. The Yankees don't face the Blue Jays again until July 16 in New York.

"In a lot of cases, it's an unwritten rule that players respect each other and do what's best for the game," umpire supervisor Rich Garcia said

[oriole_way]

Another umpire's viewpoint:

The crew chief for the umpiring crew at last night's Mets-Giants game, Randy Marsh, said there's no hard rule that bans yelling at an infielder. But he added that it still falls under a discretionary call for umpires to see if there was interference.

From the replay, Marsh did not think interference occurred. "If he was close to him and jolted him, that would be something else," he said. "But it looked like he just ran past him."

http://www.amny.com/sports/baseball/ny-spmside015237911jun01,0,2343320.story?coll=am-homepromo-briefs

[oriole_way]

"He's allowed to say 'I got it. I got it,''' said former Dodgers manager Tommy Lasorda, who recalled a similar play when he was with Triple-A Montreal in the late 1950s or 1960.

"I was coaching first base in Miami - two outs in the top of the ninth inning. We were losing by one run. We had a guy on second base,'' Lasorda recalled. "There was a foul ball. Gene Oliver was going over to catch it. I said, 'I got it! I got it!' He pulled back and the ball dropped. He's screaming at me. And the next pitch a guy hit a home run, and we won the game.''

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/wires/06/01/2010.ap.bba.a.rod.s.antics.0774/

[NJOriolesFan]

What rule?

The same rule that isn't enforced on a take out slide to prevent a double play.

Then why didn't the umps call him out. Nobody has even interviewed an umpire to ask whether it's illegal.

If an ump states that he didn't hear Arod but if he had then he would have ruled the batter out, then fine.


I read it in the New Jersey Star Ledger this morning. I also know you can't fake receiving a throw into a base but they do it all the time. I'll have to look when I get back home and see the paper.

The main part is and "intentional act by a runner.....to hinder, obstruct..... and confuse a fielder attempting to catch a batted ball."

[oriole_way]

I read it in the New Jersey Star Ledger this morning. I also know you can't fake receiving a throw into a base but they do it all the time. I'll have to look when I get back home and see the paper.

The main part is and "intentional act by a runner.....to hinder, obstruct..... and confuse a fielder attempting to catch a batted ball."

Yes, several people have been quoting that rule. But that rule should also prevent a runner from sliding hard into 2nd base to prevent a double play. A take out slide also hinders and obstructs a fielder.

Yet that is allowed, obviously.

Therefore, it doesn't seem like it's a black and white rule issue.

It would help clarify the issue if an umpire came out and stated that what Arod did is clearly illegal and the batter should have been ruled out, but I have not been able to find that type of quote from an umpire. What I have found with regards to umpires views of the play, I posted already.

[oriole_way]

"Are you kidding me?" former Dodger Maury Wills said. "Sometimes I don't know what today's players are thinking. They get mad at every little thing."

During Wills' 14-year career, he heard the same word chanted at him so many times, he thought it was his middle name.

"Every time a grounder was hit to me, somebody on the other team yelled, 'Boot!' " he recalled. "I heard it for years. 'Boot!' 'Boot!' "

http://www.latimes.com/sports/columnists/la-sp-plaschke1jun01,1,5453661.column?page=2&coll=la-news-columns

[ledzepp8]

"Are you kidding me?" former Dodger Maury Wills said. "Sometimes I don't know what today's players are thinking. They get mad at every little thing."

During Wills' 14-year career, he heard the same word chanted at him so many times, he thought it was his middle name.

"Every time a grounder was hit to me, somebody on the other team yelled, 'Boot!' " he recalled. "I heard it for years. 'Boot!' 'Boot!' "

http://www.latimes.com/sports/columnists/la-sp-plaschke1jun01,1,5453661.column?page=2&coll=la-news-columns

Yeah, cause yelling "Boot! Boot!" is the same as yelling something that sounds coincidentally like "Got it" while running up behind the fielder. Glad you cleared that up for us Maury Wills.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ledzepp8]

"He's allowed to say 'I got it. I got it,''' said former Dodgers manager Tommy Lasorda, who recalled a similar play when he was with Triple-A Montreal in the late 1950s or 1960.

"I was coaching first base in Miami - two outs in the top of the ninth inning. We were losing by one run. We had a guy on second base,'' Lasorda recalled. "There was a foul ball. Gene Oliver was going over to catch it. I said, 'I got it! I got it!' He pulled back and the ball dropped. He's screaming at me. And the next pitch a guy hit a home run, and we won the game.''

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/wires/06/01/2010.ap.bba.a.rod.s.antics.0774/

Once again this isn't the same situation so it doesn't apply. Lasorda was not rounding the bases and yelling it into the fielder's ear, he was coaching first base.

[oriole_way]

Once again this isn't the same situation so it doesn't apply. Lasorda was not rounding the bases and yelling it into the fielder's ear, he was coaching first base.

It's pretty damn close.

The fielder (Gene Oliver, who was either playing first base or catcher according to his profile, not sure which he played that day) came over into foul territory to catch the ball and the first base coach yells, "I got it. I got it." The fielder pulls off and lets the ball drop.

The only difference is that it was the first base coach instead of a baserunner.

If that makes the two situations completely different to you, I don't know what to tell you. (I could go the sarcastic route, but I'm trying to be logical, not condescending.)

If anything, I would think that a coach would be held to a higher standard than a player.

[ledzepp8]

It's pretty damn close.

The fielder (Gene Oliver, who was either playing first base or catcher according to his profile, not sure which he played that day) came over into foul territory to catch the ball and the first base coach yells, "I got it. I got it." The fielder pulls off and lets the ball drop.

The only difference is that it was the first base coach instead of a baserunner.

If that makes the two situations completely different to you, I don't know what to tell you. (I could go the sarcastic route, but I'm trying to be logical, not condescending.)

If anything, I would think that a coach would be held to a higher standard than a player.

Oh I don't think Lasorda should have done it either but that's beside the point. It's not the same situation. Lasorda is standing in the coach's box yelling something...he's not running up behind him yelling something directly in his ear.

[glenn__davis]

I thought, sometime long ago in this thread, that MP made a pretty good point about whether or not you can envision Cal doing something like this, and the answer is no. And frankly, I don't think I would do it either. In my good ol' slow pitch softball league, I would try something like that, but I think if the infielder fell for it, I'd actually apologize for doing it and call myself out.

Having said that, I still don't have a problem with what A-Rod did, even if I wouldn't do it myself.

[rolliefingers]

Oh I don't think Lasorda should have done it either but that's beside the point. It's not the same situation. Lasorda is standing in the coach's box yelling something...he's not running up behind him yelling something directly in his ear.I think a player on the field has MORE of a right to psych out the fielder than a coach does. A coach is not technically part of the game, whereas A-Rod, as a baserunner, was a part of the play.

I think a lot of people here have an expectation of a higher level of "sportsmanship" in baseball than actually exists, or has ever existed. It's absurd to think that A-Rod is the first baserunner ever to try to psych out an infielder trying to catch a popup. As I said earlier, it's not the classiest move, but neither was Freddie Bynum mauling the guy trying to turn the DP the other night. It's baseball, not tea time.

[Mackus]

Attempt to bobble the ball in the outfield until he is close enough in to throw out a runner trying to tag? No OF fly, right? If it ain't written that you can't, then you can.Not sure if this has been debunked yet in this thread, but the runner can tag up as soon as the outfielder touches the ball, even if he doesn't gain full control of it until later. This rule is in place specifically to prevent the outfielder from "bobbling" the ball all the way into the infield.

[66-70-83-??]

The title of this thread is:

Poor sportsmanship or smart baseball ?

Poor sportsmanship is the only answer, given these two choices. Regardless of whether or not it broke any rule.

"Smart" baseball means throwing to the right base, taking an extra base, etc.

[oriole_way]

Oh I don't think Lasorda should have done it either but that's beside the point. It's not the same situation. Lasorda is standing in the coach's box yelling something...he's not running up behind him yelling something directly in his ear.

How far was Arod from the fielder? 5 feet maybe? Whatever it was, it wasn't close enough where there was any chance of physical contact.

I would post the clip from youtube, but unfortunately it has been removed.

How far was Lasorda from the fielder in foul territory? That's right, you don't know. He could have been the same distance away from the fielder (remember that it was a foul ball). Regardless, he was obviously close enough to make the fielder give way and let the ball drop. Even Lasorda himself describes it as a similar play, but you want to debate that it's not.

Anyway, what do you think would be an appropriate distance that you have to be from the fielder where it would be ok to yell something? 3 feet, ..... 5 feet, .... 10 feet?

It's a pretty tepid argument at best.

If you want to just state that Arod's play was wrong, fine. Obviously players and fans have come down on both sides of the issue.

But don't rationalize that Lasorda's play in unsuitable for comparison.

[oriole_way]

The title of this thread is:

Poor sportsmanship or smart baseball ?

Poor sportsmanship is the only answer, given these two choices. Regardless of whether or not it broke any rule.

"Smart" baseball means throwing to the right base, taking an extra base, etc.

If that's the case, then why is it ok for a runner on 2nd base to try to steal the signs from a catcher about the type and location of an upcoming pitch?

Is that smart baseball or poor sportsmanship? I would say that it's poor sportsmanship, but it's accepted as part of the game.

(And let's not pretend that sign stealing hasn't been occurring in baseball for a long time.)

But of course, the batter better not look back at the catcher while in the batter's box. That's a definite no-no.

I just don't understand these black and white responses.

[66-70-83-??]

If that's the case, then why is it ok for a runner on 2nd base to try to steal the signs from a catcher about the type and location of an upcoming pitch?

Is that smart baseball or poor sportsmanship? I would say that it's poor sportsmanship, but it's accepted as part of the game.

(And let's not pretend that sign stealing hasn't been occurring in baseball for a long time.)

But of course, the batter better not look back at the catcher while in the batter's box. That's a definite no-no.

I just don't understand these black and white responses.

Fine. I just don't understand your responses, either.

We can agree to disagree.

Poor sportsmanship is subjective. There can be a fine line between deception and bush-league tactics. This is one that I put in the bush-league column.

Stealing signs from second base is not a good analogy, imo. All the catcher has to do is change the indicator or sequence, etc.... At least the defense has an opportunity to counter the stealing if it is suspected.

There is no defense for a well-timed quick yell of "mine"or "cut off" at the split second when a play is to be made.

A better analogy was the little league one- is it ok for an opposing coach to yell "SWING".

[ledzepp8]

If that's the case, then why is it ok for a runner on 2nd base to try to steal the signs from a catcher about the type and location of an upcoming pitch?

Is that smart baseball or poor sportsmanship? I would say that it's poor sportsmanship, but it's accepted as part of the game.

(And let's not pretend that sign stealing hasn't been occurring in baseball for a long time.)

But of course, the batter better not look back at the catcher while in the batter's box. That's a definite no-no.

I just don't understand these black and white responses.It's not okay to steal signs...maybe it's accepted as a part of baseball but people definitely don't like it. That's why you have heated arguments between players, benches clearing, batters getting thrown out, etc. And also like 66-70-83 said that catcher/coaches are able to see what is going on and can change the signs if they choose to. A 3b concentrating on a pop up doesn't have the same luxury of deciphering whether or not it's really his teammate calling him off or some idiot from the other team. There's a reason why fielders have the universal "I got it" call, it's to make sure someone is going to catch the ball and to avoid collisions. Pitcher retaliation is also an accepted part of the game but that doesn't mean that it's permissible, seeing as how pitchers routinely get warned and/or ejected for doing so.

[ledzepp8]

How far was Arod from the fielder? 5 feet maybe? Whatever it was, it wasn't close enough where there was any chance of physical contact.

I would post the clip from youtube, but unfortunately it has been removed.

How far was Lasorda from the fielder in foul territory? That's right, you don't know. He could have been the same distance away from the fielder (remember that it was a foul ball). Regardless, he was obviously close enough to make the fielder give way and let the ball drop. Even Lasorda himself describes it as a similar play, but you want to debate that it's not.

Anyway, what do you think would be an appropriate distance that you have to be from the fielder where it would be ok to yell something? 3 feet, ..... 5 feet, .... 10 feet?

It's a pretty tepid argument at best.

If you want to just state that Arod's play was wrong, fine. Obviously players and fans have come down on both sides of the issue.

But don't rationalize that Lasorda's play in unsuitable for comparison.

Once again, what Lasorda did was wrong also. But he didn't insert himself into the play, he was in his coaches box. If he wasn't, he most assuredly would have been ejected. Trying to psych out another player is a completely different thing from inserting yourself into the play and trying to make the fielder think you are his teammate calling him off. That is what ARod did, not what Lasorda did. And the Maury Wills example was even more preposterous.

[charliec107]

This issue probably has more to do with finding anything anti-Alex or anti-Yankee (which I have no problem with) than poor sportsmanship. I said earlier that I thought it was funny and I had no problem with it. I would like to take it back after I thought about it more. If everyone did it how could you believe anyone calling you off? This would create dangerous situations especially on pop-ups when two players would collide because they don't know if it is an attempt to gain an extra out. This situation wasn't bad, but if a player ends up with a concussion after a collision in a similar situation, MLB will have to take action. They should nip this in the bud before anyone tries it again.

[rolliefingers]

The title of this thread is:

Poor sportsmanship or smart baseball ?

Poor sportsmanship is the only answer, given these two choices. Regardless of whether or not it broke any ruleCan't the answer be "both"?

[byrdz]

This issue probably has more to do with finding anything anti-Alex or anti-Yankee (which I have no problem with) than poor sportsmanship. I said earlier that I thought it was funny and I had no problem with it. I would like to take it back after I thought about it more. If everyone did it how could you believe anyone calling you off? This would create dangerous situations especially on pop-ups when two players would collide because they don't know if it is an attempt to gain an extra out. This situation wasn't bad, but if a player ends up with a concussion after a collision in a similar situation, MLB will have to take action. They should nip this in the bud before anyone tries it again.


Good post, that's why I think there's etiquette involved with this sort of play. It could prove to be dangerous if it's done by all players.

[byrdz]

So now Torre chimes in and even says that it was wrong for ARod to do what he did.


"He may have been excited about the fact that we were leading the ballgame," Torre said before his team's series opener at Boston. "It was probably inappropriate to do it at the time he did it, but you can't change it, unfortunately."

"It's probably something he shouldn't have done," Torre said. "I don't sense he's going to do it again."

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2890628)

[Mad Mark]

The Miss Pay-Rod School of Baseball Etiquette recommends screaming "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" when rounding 3B on pop-ups.
(Remember--while it's spelled "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" , it's pronounced "MIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIINE".) Derek Christ may look down his nose at you for your latest baserunning innovation, but them's the breaks, and Miss Pay-Rod is taking her show to Anaheim in 2008 anyway....

:eek: :eek: And we thought about going after this dipstick? :eek: :eek:

[Mad Mark]

So now Torre chimes in and even says that it was wrong for ARod to do what he did.



Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2890628)


Well, Torre's replaced Sam Perlozzo on the first managerial hot seat, and Miss Pay-Rod will be the Angels' problem next season, most likely...

[El Gordo]

The Miss Pay-Rod School of Baseball Etiquette recommends screaming "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" when rounding 3B on pop-ups.
(Remember--while it's spelled "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" , it's pronounced "MIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIINE".) Derek Christ may look down his nose at you for your latest baserunning innovation, but them's the breaks, and Miss Pay-Rod is taking her show to Anaheim in 2008 anyway....

:eek: :eek: And we thought about going after this dipstick? :eek: :eek:
SHHHHHH! SG still as a big jones for him.:D