HOF 2nd Basemen?

[Migrant Redbird]

An Astros fan visited one of our Cardinals forums recently to ask for "unbiased opinions" as to whether Biggio deserves to be in the HOF. Link (http://birdsonthebat.org/usercp.php)

I think that Biggio makes it because of the intersection of two criteria: having a "pretty good" career and staying healthy enough to achieve the 3,000 hit threshold. Without the 3,000 hits, I think that Biggio's selection would have been pretty questionable. With it, he's probably guaranteed to get in. Only 27 players in the history of the game have been both good enough and durable enough to collect 3,000 hits and all of them who have been retired long enough to be eligible are in the HOF -- except for the career leader in hits. We have to drop all the way down to #40 on the career hits list, Harold Baines, who has 2886 hits, before we find anyone on the career hits list who's eligible for the HOF and didn't get selected.

As to whether Biggio belongs in the HOF or not, I'll plead the 5th. There are a lot of players in the HOF with "marginal" credentials and there will be a lot more players who gain entry with numbers that aren't sterling -- though it's probably getting more and more difficult as more and more fans and baseball writers become more statistically sophisticated. It only takes 26% of the voters to keep a player from being selected and the veterans committee isn't bringing in many either, so players will need to buttress their credentials better in the future.

With the possible exception of Pete Rose, it's my opinion that everyone who clearly deserved to be in the HOF is already there, unless they haven't been retired long enough to be eligible. The ones who are fighting to get in, like Andre Dawson, Jim Rice, and Mark McGwire, have some credentials which rank very high and others which aren't really HOF caliber. They need help -- i.e., a friendly sports media.

Here are all the second basemen who are currently in the HOF.


PLAYER CAREER INDUCTED
Rod Carew 1967-1985 1991
Eddie Collins 1906-1926 1939
Bobby Doerr 1937-1951 1986
Johnny Evers 1902-1922 1946
Nellie Fox 1947-1965 1997
Frankie Frisch 1919-1937 1947
Charlie Gehringer 1924-1942 1949
Frank Grant 1886-1903 2006
Billy Herman 1931-1947 1975
Rogers Hornsby 1915-1937 1942
Nap Lajoie 1896-1914 1937
Tony Lazzeri 1926-1939 1991
Bill Mazeroski 1956-1972 2001
Bid McPhee 1882-1899 2000
Joe Morgan 1963-1984 1990
Jackie Robinson 1947-1956 1962
Ryne Sandberg 1981-1997 2005
Red Schoendienst 1945-1960 1989

Frank Grant was a Negro League selection, the "greatest black player of 19th century".

I ranked the 2nd basemen under discussion with those in the HOF. I don't think that it proves much, but it does illustrate how Kent would be a pretty strong candidate if he had been as adept with the glove as Robbie Alomar. Of course, there's not any particularly good way to judge whether or not a player's glove is spectacular enough to sweep him into the HOF. About all that I can do is cite examples, like Mazeroski and Ozzie Smith.

I did list the number of gold gloves that each player earned, but you'll have to scroll over to the right to see them. A 2nd baseman like Red Schoendienst who was considered pretty good at his position and played until 1960 missed out on getting any gelt because he was past his prime before they began handing them out in 1957.


PLAYER YEARS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ GG
Hornsby 23 2259 8173 1579 2930 541 169 301 1584 135 64 1038 679 .358 .434 .577 1.011 175 na
Lajoie 21 2480 9589 1504 3242 657 163 83 1599 380 21 516 85 .338 .380 .467 .847 150 na
Collins 25 2826 9949 1821 3315 438 187 47 1300 744 173 1499 286 .333 .424 .429 .853 141 na
Robinson 10 1382 4877 947 1518 273 54 137 734 197 30 740 291 .311 .409 .474 .883 132 na
Morgan 22 2649 9277 1650 2517 449 96 268 1133 689 162 1865 1015 .271 .392 .427 .819 132 5
Carew 19 2469 9315 1424 3053 445 112 92 1015 353 187 1018 1028 .328 .393 .429 .822 131 0
Kent 16 2116 7836 1244 2261 519 46 355 1419 94 58 752 1449 .289 .356 .502 .858 125 0
Gehringer 19 2323 8860 1774 2839 574 146 184 1427 181 89 1186 372 .320 .404 .480 .884 124 na
Lazzeri 14 1740 6297 986 1840 334 115 178 1191 148 79 869 864 .292 .380 .467 .847 121 na
Alomar 17 2379 9073 1508 2724 504 80 210 1134 474 114 1032 1140 .300 .371 .443 .814 116 10
Doerr 14 1865 7093 1094 2042 381 89 223 1247 54 64 809 608 .288 .362 .461 .823 115 na
Sandberg 16 2164 8385 1318 2386 403 76 282 1061 344 107 761 1260 .285 .344 .452 .796 114 9
Biggio 20 2783 10654 1822 3004 658 55 286 1152 413 123 1153 1702 .282 .365 .435 .800 113 4
Herman 15 1922 7707 1163 2345 486 82 47 839 67 0 737 428 .304 .367 .407 .774 112 na
Frisch 19 2311 9112 1532 2880 466 138 105 1244 419 74 728 272 .316 .369 .432 .801 111 na
McPhee 18 2135 8291 1678 2250 303 188 53 1067 568 0 981 229 .271 .355 .372 .727 106 na
Evers 18 1784 6137 919 1659 216 70 12 538 324 8 778 142 .270 .356 .334 .690 106 na
Fox 19 2367 9232 1279 2663 355 112 35 790 76 80 719 216 .288 .348 .363 .711 94 3
Schoend'st 19 2216 8479 1223 2449 427 78 84 773 89 27 606 346 .289 .337 .387 .724 93 0
Mazeroski 17 2163 7755 769 2016 294 62 138 853 27 23 447 706 .260 .299 .367 .666 84 8

2nd base, shortstop, catcher, and center field are the positions where defensive excellence has sometimes appeared to factor in much more strongly than at other positions. Just to add a little more context, below are the stats for some other players -- a few of whom are already in the HOF; a few who are likely to get voted in once they've been retired long enough; and a few who probably will never get in although they'll be the grist for many a hot stove league debate.


PLAYER YEARS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ GG
Bonds 22 2933 9701 2195 2900 597 77 750 1970 514 141 2510 1517 .299 .445 .608 1.053 183 8
J. Jackson 13 1332 4981 873 1772 307 168 54 785 202 61 519 158 .356 .423 .517 .940 170 na
Pujols 7 1011 3772 795 1246 276 12 266 807 37 22 543 428 .330 .418 .621 1.039 169 1
McGwire 16 1874 6187 1167 1626 252 6 583 1414 12 8 1317 1596 .263 .394 .588 .982 163 1
Dick Allen 15 1749 6332 1099 1848 320 79 351 1119 133 52 894 1556 .292 .378 .534 .912 156 0
Bagwell 15 2150 7797 1517 2314 488 32 449 1529 202 78 1401 1558 .297 .408 .540 .948 150 1
Belle 12 1539 5853 974 1726 389 21 381 1239 88 41 683 961 .295 .369 .564 .933 143 0
L. Walker 17 1988 6907 1355 2160 471 62 383 1311 230 76 913 1231 .313 .400 .565 .965 140 7
Edmonds 15 1753 6100 1135 1755 385 23 357 1092 63 48 898 1552 .288 .380 .534 .914 135 8
Palmeiro 20 2831 10472 1663 3020 585 38 569 1835 97 40 1353 1348 .288 .371 .515 .886 132 3
Gwynn 20 2440 9288 1383 3141 543 85 135 1138 319 125 790 434 .338 .388 .459 .847 132 5
Lynn 17 1969 6925 1063 1960 388 43 306 1111 72 54 857 1116 .283 .360 .484 .844 130 4
J. Torre 18 2209 7874 996 2342 344 59 252 1185 23 29 779 1094 .297 .365 .452 .817 129 1
Rice 16 2089 8225 1249 2452 373 79 382 1451 58 34 670 1423 .298 .352 .502 .854 128 0
Sosa 18 2310 8668 1456 2372 372 44 602 1638 234 107 916 2269 .274 .344 .535 .879 128 0
Garciap'ra 12 1269 5118 871 1615 348 52 213 873 91 30 366 504 .316 .364 .529 .893 127 4
B Williams 16 2076 7869 1366 2336 449 55 287 1257 147 87 1069 1212 .297 .381 .477 .858 125 4
Santo 15 2243 8143 1138 2254 365 67 342 1331 35 41 1108 1343 .277 .362 .464 .826 125 5
Puckett 12 1783 7244 1071 2304 414 57 207 1085 134 76 450 965 .318 .360 .477 .837 124 6
Molitor 21 2683 10835 1782 3319 605 114 234 1307 504 131 1094 1244 .306 .369 .448 .817 122 0
Dawson 21 2627 9927 1373 2774 503 98 438 1591 314 109 589 1509 .279 .323 .482 .805 119 8
Rose 24 3562 14053 2165 4256 746 135 160 1314 198 149 1566 1143 .303 .375 .409 .784 118 2
T. Simmons 21 2456 8680 1074 2472 483 47 248 1389 21 33 855 694 .285 .348 .437 .785 118 0
Kingman 16 1941 6677 901 1575 240 25 442 1210 85 49 608 1816 .236 .302 .478 .780 115 0
Yount 20 2856 11008 1632 3142 583 126 251 1406 271 105 966 1350 .285 .342 .430 .772 115 0
Ripken 21 3001 11551 1647 3184 603 44 431 1695 36 39 1129 1305 .276 .340 .447 .787 112 2
Trammell 20 2293 8288 1231 2365 412 55 185 1003 236 109 850 874 .285 .352 .415 .767 110 4
Oz' Smith 19 2573 9396 1257 2460 402 69 28 793 580 148 1072 589 .262 .337 .328 .665 87 13
Vizquel 19 2516 9231 1311 2534 407 69 75 840 373 149 916 938 .275 .340 .358 .698 84 11

No, the HOF selections aren't fair, but there's no real way to improve the selection process very much.

[mweb]

Biggio is easily a HOF'er imo. 125 career WARP3 with a 6 year peak of 61.6. So he wasn't just "pretty good" for a long time, he was great during that 6 year stretch. He's stats are also more impressive due to the positions he played.

I believe he's also 2nd all time in getting hit by pitches, so that's another way he contributed that doesn't really get factored in by most. He went a whole season without grounding into a double play as well.

Some other creditials:

-413 steals(61st all time)
-4,441 times on base(20th)
-999 extra base hits(27th)
-1,633 runs created(48th)
-658 doubles(6th)
-7 time all star
-5 time silver slugger
-HOF Standards: 55.9. Avg HOF: 50
-HOF Moniter: 172. Likely HOF: > 100.
-Similiar batters: Yount, Alomar, Morgan, Molitor, Whitaker, Sandberg, Ripken, Brooks Robinson, Charlie Gehringer, Vada Pinson. 7 of top 9 in HOF, Alomar will likely get in, and Whitaker has a good case to be in.

[Leitch]

BP has a pretty good article about this on the day that Biggio hit #3,000 and Thomas hit #500:


Biggio’s argument is in a similar vein. There are 20 second basemen in the Hall of Fame. Biggio places just 11th in that group in adjusted OPS, but he has much stronger markers outside of that figure than the others do. Biggio has played in 2700 games, among the highest in that group, and while he spent a number of years away from the keystone, he spent those catching and playing center field—tributes to his athleticism—as opposed to playing first base and DHing the way Hall of Famers such as Rod Carew and Paul Molitor did. Biggio has 413 career steals at a 77% clip, and he was a good second baseman during his prime. The big four second baseman—Hornsby, Joe Morgan, Nap Lajoie and Eddie Collins—outpace Biggio, but it’s not clear that any other second baseman in history was better than him. One of the five to seven best players at his position in history is a Hall of Famer.

I think the Hall of Fame electorate—by which I mean the subset of veteran newspaper and magazine writers who hoard the honor of the vote—has by and large made good choices over the years. As much as they bollix the annual awards voting by making it about storylines, the BBWAA’s track record in separating Hall of Famers from the other guys is fairly strong. Moreover, we’re part of an era in which information is king; there’s no way for the cold, hard facts that reveal the greatness of these two players to not become the center of the argument. Both will be elected within a few years of becoming eligible.

[Sports Guy]

Biggio is a no brainer, clear HOFer.

Who would you guys prefer to have...Alomar or Biggio?

[Jules]

I dont think there is any question that he belongs in the HOF. J Stark, ESPN, made a great argument for it the other day as well.

Most people would put him in the HOF but no one wants to make the induction speech. :eek:

[GrichFan]

Biggio is a no brainer, clear HOFer.

Who would you guys prefer to have...Alomar or Biggio?

Not looking at the stats, but I think in his prime Alomar was better. But his prime was relatively short compared to Biggio. Tough call. I'll take Alomar.

Of course I'll have to look up their stats to see how good/bad my memory is!

I'll stick with Alomar. Pretty equivalent offensive stats. Alomar's career really came to an abrubt end once he went to the Mets. I didn't realize he had that many GG's either. Give me Alomar (minus the spitting!)

[mweb]

Biggio is a no brainer, clear HOFer.

Who would you guys prefer to have...Alomar or Biggio?

It's somewhat close, but I'll go with Alomar. He has a 132.7 WARP3 compared to Biggio's 125 even though Alomar has over 400 fewer games played. Biggio had a little more power and was better at getting hit by pitches, but Alomar was better in basically every other facet of the game.

[Moose Milligan]

Alomar in his prime.

Does Alomar get in the HOF? His career came to a screeching halt...

[Sports Guy]

It's somewhat close, but I'll go with Alomar. He has a 132.7 WARP3 compared to Biggio's 125 even though Alomar has over 400 fewer games played. Biggio had a little more power and was better at getting hit by pitches, but Alomar was better in basically every other facet of the game.
Yea i agree...I take Alomar as well but its not a slam dunk.

[mweb]

Alomar in his prime.

Does Alomar get in the HOF? His career came to a screeching halt...

He certainly should, but the lack of 3,000 hits hurts.

[Migrant Redbird]

Does Alomar get in the HOF? His career came to a screeching halt...

My first call was no, but that was before I looked at the comps more closely. Robbie's numbers are a little better than Biggio's, except that Biggio has the 3 extra seasons and he is finishing a lot stronger than Robbie did. Biggio has 280 more hits (and counting), 314 more runs scored, 154 more doubles, and 76 more home runs. Alomar has 25 more triples and 61 more stolen bases (with 9 fewer times caught stealing) and they're practically equal in RBIs. Robbie undoubtedly benefits from playing all those years in the AL, particularly in some of those packed lineups in Cleveland. I suspect that factoring in the pitchers at bats devalues Biggio's 113 OPS+ a little as well, so Robbie's 116 might represent a greater gap in performance than it appears.

Plus, Robbie has those 10 gold gloves, compared to just 4 for Biggio. Undoubtedly Craig would have garnered more gold if he'd played his entire career at 2nd, so only having the 4 gloves won't hurt him. However, the HOF voters will have to take into account that Robbie has more gold gloves than Sandberg and Mazeroski.

What we don't know is how much the lingering effects of the spit is going to have. My initial cut on Robbie was that he was marginal and the spitting would sink his boat; having compared his stats to the other 2nd basemen, I'm thinking that maybe the 10 gold gloves are enough to turn it around.

The problem is that it only takes 26% of the voters to deny Robbie the chance to get in, and he got a pretty raw deal on the media coverage of that incident. I don't know; I certainly wouldn't want to bet the rent on him getting in.

[Frobby]

Bill James has been saying for years that Biggio is a no-brainer for the Hall of Fame. He's way up there in Win Shares among 2B. That might be obscure, but 3,000 hits isn't.

[Migrant Redbird]

Any thoughts about Jeff Kent's chances? A friend of mine pointed out that Jeff would have the most home runs and 2nd highest slugging percentage of any 2nd baseman in the HOF.

My rejoinder is that middle infielders with less impressive offensive stats have been getting in because they're perceived as being the best in history, or nearly the best, at a very difficult and important defensive position. My impression of Kent is that he's mediocre at best on defense; hence that throws him into the competition with all the outfielders and corner infielders where his 125 OPS+ is not particularly remarkable. There are a number of outfielders, some of them highly regarded for their gloves (e.g., Dick Allen, Jim Edmonds, Larry Walker) who have a better OPS+ than Kent and may have difficulty making it into the HOF.

[mweb]

Any thoughts about Jeff Kent's chances? A friend of mine pointed out that Jeff would have the most home runs and 2nd highest slugging percentage of any 2nd baseman in the HOF.

My rejoinder is that middle infielders with less impressive offensive stats have been getting in because they're perceived as being the best in history, or nearly the best, at a very difficult and important defensive position. My impression of Kent is that he's mediocre at best on defense; hence that throws him into the competition with all the outfielders and corner infielders where his 125 OPS+ is not particularly remarkable. There are a number of outfielders, some of them highly regarded for their gloves (e.g., Dick Allen, Jim Edmonds, Larry Walker) who have a better OPS+ than Kent and may have difficulty making it into the HOF.


Just because a guy is mediocre defensively at 2nd, doesn't mean his offense should be compared to guys who play OF or corner IF. His offense should still be compared to other 2nd baseman, as should his defense.

Kent is borderline imo, he has a 107.4 WARP3, an MVP award(that his teammate should have gotten), 5 time all star, 4 time silver slugger, and has great power numbers for his position.

As of right now, I would say no, his offensive numbers are inflated due to the era he played in, and he wasn't that good defensively or on the basepaths, plus I think his best years wouldn't have been so great without Bonds in the lineup. I know many say protection doesn't matter, and for the most part I agree with that, but Bonds was a special case imo.

[mweb]

Rob Neyer on Biggio's HOF resume: http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/insider/columns/story?columnist=neyer_rob&id=2917659

[Chollie Eckman]

He makes it but longevity was clearly the biggest factor. It's amazing that a guy with that build lasted that long playing some of the most physically demanding positions in baseball.

There are more "famous" people that also deserve enshrinement.

[mweb]

He makes it but longevity was clearly the biggest factor. It's amazing that a guy with that build lasted that long playing some of the most physically demanding positions in baseball.

There are more "famous" people that also deserve enshrinement.

Like who? And despite the name, the HOF is about being great at baseball, not about being famous while playing baseball.

And most hall of famers wouldn't be in the HOF if they didn't have a long career. And even if Biggio retired a few years ago, he'd have a strong HOF resume. I'm personally not a big fan of the way of thinking that requires players to be mediocre for a few years at their end of their careers in order to get to certain milestones which assure's their enshrinement into the Hall.

[Lt Melmo]

I'm amazed people pull the longevity argument with Biggio. He had a fantastic peak. Didn't Bill James say something like his 94-98 seasons were some of the best ever for a second basemen?

OPS+/EQA/WARP3
1994: 138/.323/9.7
1995: 141/.320/11.0
1996: 121/.297/9.1
1997: 143/.325/13.1
1998: 139/.320/10.1

First ballot for sure. It's kind of insulting that there's even a debate.

[mweb]

I'm amazed people pull the longevity argument with Biggio. He had a fantastic peak. Didn't Bill James say something like his 94-98 seasons were some of the best ever for a second basemen?

OPS+/EQA/WARP3
1994: 138/.323/9.7
1995: 141/.320/11.0
1996: 121/.297/9.1
1997: 143/.325/13.1
1998: 139/.320/10.1

First ballot for sure. It's kind of insulting that there's even a debate.

James' had Biggio as the 5th best 2nd baseman ever and 35th best player ever after the 2000 season. He also felt Biggio was the best player in baseball at the time of his writing the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract.

He says "Biggio has the best 'little stats' of any player in baseball history." He then makes this comparison using Biggio's 1997 season: "If you compare him to, let's say, Jim Rice in 1984, Biggio has a hidden advantage of 69 extra times on base, since he was hit by pitches 33 more times, and beat the throw to first on a double play attempt 36 more times. Those little stats that get left out of USA Today, in this comparison, have an impact of roughly equivalent to 100 points of batting average."

That is basically the most extreme example he could have chosen though, so don't think it's as random as he makes it sound. Jim Rice had the most GIDP's in history that year, while Biggio had none and the 8th highest HBP in a year compared to Rice's one. And when I say history, I mean since they starting recording those stats.

I personally wouldn't put Biggio that high, but he is very underrated.

BTW, those "little stats" don't favor a certain SS who is about to go into the HOF. First ever in GIDP's. Only HBP 66 times.

[TGO]

I'm amazed people pull the longevity argument with Biggio. He had a fantastic peak. Didn't Bill James say something like his 94-98 seasons were some of the best ever for a second basemen?

OPS+/EQA/WARP3
1994: 138/.323/9.7
1995: 141/.320/11.0
1996: 121/.297/9.1
1997: 143/.325/13.1
1998: 139/.320/10.1

First ballot for sure. It's kind of insulting that there's even a debate.

BUT IT'S THE HALL OF FAME, NOT HALL OF VERY GOOD!!!!!!111

/takes finger off "Cowherd" button/

Whoops, sorry.

I agree, Biggio's an absolute no brainer.

[Chollie Eckman]

James' had Biggio as the 5th best 2nd baseman ever and 35th best player ever after the 2000 season. He also felt Biggio was the best player in baseball at the time of his writing the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract.
Please. There are probably 35 outfielders better than him.

Best player in all of baseball? And you believe that?

Biggio never won an MVP, but neither did Murray. Who would you rather have in their prime?

[Lt Melmo]

Please. There are probably 35 outfielders better than him.

Best player in all of baseball? And you believe that?

Biggio never won an MVP, but neither did Murray. Who would you rather have in their prime?
And Murray didn't play second base.

[mweb]

Please. There are probably 35 outfielders better than him.

Best player in all of baseball? And you believe that?

Biggio never won an MVP, but neither did Murray. Who would you rather have in their prime?

I did say that I think James overrates Biggio, although he makes some good points. As far as 35 outfielders being better than him, that may be so in terms of hitting, but you have to consider position and defense. And I'd take Biggio in his prime over Murray.

[Mackus]

Biggio is an absolute lock for the Hall. Anybody who doesn't think so isn't watching the same game.

I'd also put Alomar in, but probably leave Jeff Kent out, would have to look at Kent's numbers a bit more in depth though.

The only other guy from this era that I think gets in will be Chase Utley. He started his career late (first full season at 26) but if he can sustain his current (or close to it) level of play until his mid to late 30s, he'll put up some awfully good numbers, and is clearly the best 2B around today, so he should rack up the AS games and Silver Slugger awards for the next handful of seasons.

[O-Arm36]

I don't understand why there's all the love for Biggio and not as much for Big Frank.

On a sportsnation poll the majority of people said that Biggio was a lock and a first ballot hall of famer. I don't agree with that, but not enough to really argue about it. What upset me most was that the same poll for Frank Thomas said he was a hall-of-famer but not on the first ballot.

I don't understand how or why Frank has fallen in the eyes of so many people. He's had an OPS over 1.000 in seven different seasons and his career OPS is .985. He was having one of the greatest seasons ever in the strike-shortened 1994 season.

Granted, he had injury problems and was relegated to DH duties, but even when he was hurt he bounced back with awesome seasons in 2000 and 2003. While Biggio was just hanging on in 2006 as a marginal major leaguer, Frank went to a new team and was 4th in the MVP voting. Many people thought he deserved to win the MVP.

Yet still there was another poll that asked "Who had the better career, Frank Thomas or Craig Biggio?" and Biggio carried every state except three. IMO, this isn't even close. Biggio was a good player and likely a HOFer, but he doesn't belong in the same category as Frank.

Frank Thomas is one of the 50 greatest players ever, and if you would've asked me in 1995 if he would be as forgotten as he is now, I would've laughed at you.

Is it because his best years came in the Strike Era?

Is it because of his messy divorce with the White Sox?

What's the deal?

[BaltimoreTerp]

The idea of "first-ballot" is a load of crap anyway, so don't pay attention to that.

The question of Murray vs. Biggio is interesting. In raw numbers, you go with the power in Murray. However, Biggio played three positions well in his career, and had great numbers for each.

You can find a 35-home run first baseman (although obviously not as good as Murray), but even now a 20+ home run, 40+ double, 30+ stolen base player, especially as a catcher, second baseman, or centerfielder is amazingly valuable.

[isestrex]

Who would you guys prefer to have...Alomar or Biggio?

Could you be more specific SG?

If you mean, "It's 1986 and we have the option of acquiring Craig Biggo or Sandy Alomar's kid to a minor league contract, who do you take?" Then the answer is easily Biggio.

Biggio has shown that he is long lasting and loyal to his team. Can you imagine Biggio playing 20 seasons with the O's? Can you imagin 15+ years of a Ripken/Biggo douple play combination? They would have been the next Trammel and Whittaker.


But if you are saying, "Who do you want in their prime?" Then I'd have to go with Alomar. If you were to ask who would you take in the mid 90's to a multi-year deal, I'd still say Alomar.

[Chollie Eckman]

I did say that I think James overrates Biggio, although he makes some good points. As far as 35 outfielders being better than him, that may be so in terms of hitting, but you have to consider position and defense. And I'd take Biggio in his prime over Murray.

You don't know Eddie Murray then. If he played in the 90's instead of the 70's he'd have 600 homers. A switch hitting power hitter who was Mr. Clutch before Ortiz. They invented the GWRBI because of him.

I'm not saying Biggio is not HOF material. However, ask yourself this - "If Biggio hits only 2500 hits and retires 5 years ago is he in the HOF?" It's a good question. He's in because of his stats BECAUSE of his longevity. Alomar was a better 2nd baseman in his prime. Let Alomar play 20 full seasons and he's a HOF lock moreso than Biggio. Besides, in every season Bagwell and Biggio played together in the '90's who do you think would have brought more trade value? Bagwell might not make the HOF.

I'd like to hear Drungo's take on all of this

[Lt Melmo]

You don't know Eddie Murray then. If he played in the 90's instead of the 70's he'd have 600 homers. A switch hitting power hitter who was Mr. Clutch before Ortiz. They invented the GWRBI because of him.

I'm not saying Biggio is not HOF material. However, ask yourself this - "If Biggio hits only 2500 hits and retires 5 years ago is he in the HOF?" It's a good question. He's in because of his stats BECAUSE of his longevity. Alomar was a better 2nd baseman in his prime. Let Alomar play 20 full seasons and he's a HOF lock moreso than Biggio. Besides, in every season Bagwell and Biggio played together in the '90's who do you think would have brought more trade value? Bagwell might not make the HOF.

I'd like to hear Drungo's (the Hangout's Tim Kirkjian) take on all of this
Did you seriously not read any of our posts about his peak? At all? One of the best ever for a third basemen? No?

[Chollie Eckman]

Did you seriously not read any of our posts about his peak? At all? One of the best ever for a third basemen? No?
I must have missed that.

[Lt Melmo]

:rolleyes: You know what I mean, try actually responding with some substance.

[Chollie Eckman]

:rolleyes: You know what I mean, try actually responding with some substance.
Hey you jumped on me brother. He's HOF, but I'm not ready to deify him like some others. He's good. Not great. Great was Sandberg or Morgan numbers.

BTW, one of the best ever for a second baseman and he wasn't an MVP? Must have been a live ball that year. Don't you think?

[mweb]

You don't know Eddie Murray then. If he played in the 90's instead of the 70's he'd have 600 homers. A switch hitting power hitter who was Mr. Clutch before Ortiz. They invented the GWRBI because of him.

I'm not saying Biggio is not HOF material. However, ask yourself this - "If Biggio hits only 2500 hits and retires 5 years ago is he in the HOF?" It's a good question. He's in because of his stats BECAUSE of his longevity. Alomar was a better 2nd baseman in his prime. Let Alomar play 20 full seasons and he's a HOF lock moreso than Biggio. Besides, in every season Bagwell and Biggio played together in the '90's who do you think would have brought more trade value? Bagwell might not make the HOF.

I'd like to hear Drungo's take on all of this

WARP3 adjusts for era, and still rates Biggio's peak as being better than Murray's.

And again, most players make the HOF because they were able to play a very long time, along with obviously being very good players. However, Biggio was a great player and had a strong peak.

[BaltimoreTerp]

You don't know Eddie Murray then. If he played in the 90's instead of the 70's he'd have 600 homers. A switch hitting power hitter who was Mr. Clutch before Ortiz. They invented the GWRBI because of him.

I'm not saying Biggio is not HOF material. However, ask yourself this - "If Biggio hits only 2500 hits and retires 5 years ago is he in the HOF?" It's a good question. He's in because of his stats BECAUSE of his longevity. Alomar was a better 2nd baseman in his prime. Let Alomar play 20 full seasons and he's a HOF lock moreso than Biggio. Besides, in every season Bagwell and Biggio played together in the '90's who do you think would have brought more trade value? Bagwell might not make the HOF.

I'd like to hear Drungo's take on all of this

What's wrong with consistency, especially when it's consistently GOOD.

Interestingly, according to BaseballReference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/biggicr01.shtml), Alomar and Biggio are very similar offense-wise. Morgan and Sandberg are numbers three and six. Robin Yount, Paul Molitor, Cal Ripken, Brooks Robinson, and Charlie Gehringer are one, four, and seven-through-nine. The only non hall-of-famers on the list are Lou Whitaker at five and Vada Pinson at ten.

Looks to be like he compares to some pretty good players.

[mweb]

What's wrong with consistency, especially when it's consistently GOOD.

Interestingly, according to BaseballReference.com, Alomar and Biggio are very similar offense-wise.

Alomar has these advantages on offense:

.296 EQA compared to .286
437 BRAA compared to 376
.814 OPS compared to .800
OPS+ of 116 compared to 113
474/588 in steals compared to 413/536
5.89 RC/27 compared to 5.45

Alomar was also better defensively. Biggio's biggest advantage's seem to be the small stats like HBP and GIDP. HBP is factored into EQA, it might be with BRAA and RC/27, not sure. Don't know about double plays, didn't see it mentioned with any of the stats.

[Chollie Eckman]

What's wrong with consistency, especially when it's consistently GOOD.

Interestingly, according to BaseballReference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/biggicr01.shtml), Alomar and Biggio are very similar offense-wise. Morgan and Sandberg are numbers three and six. Robin Yount, Paul Molitor, Cal Ripken, Brooks Robinson, and Charlie Gehringer are one, four, and seven-through-nine. The only non hall-of-famers on the list are Lou Whitaker at five and Vada Pinson at ten.

Looks to be like he compares to some pretty good players.

What are we comparing here? Yount and Ripken are shortstops. Gehringer was a second baseman. Brooks was a third baseman. Pinson was an outfielder? It's a good thing Sports Guy didn't read this. I think the numbers are code and it's programming for his head to explode.

[mweb]

What are we comparing here? Yount and Ripken are shortstops. Gehringer was a second baseman. Brooks was a third baseman. Pinson was an outfielder? It's a good thing Sports Guy didn't read this. I think the numbers are code and it's programming for his head to explode.

Considering Biggio played his career at the weakest hitting positions(besides SS), I don't see what the problem is with comparing his stats to HOF'ers who also mostly played the weakest hitting positions.

[Chollie Eckman]

Considering Biggio played his career at the weakest hitting positions(besides SS), I don't see what the problem is with comparing his stats to HOF'ers who also mostly played the weakest hitting positions.

C'mon you guys. Biggio is not that GREAT. I've given a nod to his HOF status, but to consistently call him one of the greatest middle infielders of all time is ludicrous.

[mweb]

C'mon you guys. Biggio is not that GREAT. I've given a nod to his HOF status, but to consistently call him one of the greatest middle infielders of all time is ludicrous.

Well if being in the top 10(maybe top 5) ever at second base is not among the greatest, then yes, I agree.

[BaltimoreTerp]

What are we comparing here? Yount and Ripken are shortstops. Gehringer was a second baseman. Brooks was a third baseman. Pinson was an outfielder? It's a good thing Sports Guy didn't read this. I think the numbers are code and it's programming for his head to explode.

I already told you; they are his top offensive comparisons from Baseball-Reference. Basically, eight Hall-of-Famers and two very good players.

Unless you are willing to call those guys "not THAT great", you don't have an argument other then simply not liking him.

[Chollie Eckman]

Raffy's comparables

1. Frank Robinson
2. Eddie Murray
3. Dave Winfield
4. Reggie Jackson
5. Mel Ott
6. Al Kaline
7. Fred McGriff
8. Carl Yastrzemski
9. Harold Baines
10. Willie Mays

Is he on your ballot? Or you just don't like him?

[mweb]

Raffy's comparables

1. Frank Robinson
2. Eddie Murray
3. Dave Winfield
4. Reggie Jackson
5. Mel Ott
6. Al Kaline
7. Fred McGriff
8. Carl Yastrzemski
9. Harold Baines
10. Willie Mays

Is he on your ballot? Or you just don't like him?

Based on performance, there is no doubt he is a HOF'er. 138.8 WARP3, 569 hr's, 3,020 hits, 16th in runs created, 14th in RBI, 29th in runs, and 10th in total bases.

[Moose Milligan]

What are we comparing here? Yount and Ripken are shortstops. Gehringer was a second baseman. Brooks was a third baseman. Pinson was an outfielder? It's a good thing Sports Guy didn't read this. I think the numbers are code and it's programming for his head to explode.

Not to pick nits, but Yount didn't play most of his career at SS like Ripken did.

[Migrant Redbird]

Raffie would be a first ballot HOF selection if the stanazol doesn't trip him up. McGwire was only suspected of using steroids; Palmeiro actually tested positive for it. While I tend to consider the B-12 injection as a credible hypothesis, the fact remains that he did test positive and there was no conclusive evidence that he didn't take the stuff voluntarily.

Palmeiro is 23rd in career hits; everyone in the top 39 who is eligible is already in the HOF. (Baines is 40th.)

Palmeiro is 10th in career home runs; everyone in the top 30 who is eligible is already in the HOF except for McGwire.

Palmeiro is 29th in career runs scored; everyone in front of him that's eligible is already in the HOF.

Palmeiro is 14th in career RBIs; everyone in the top 30 who is eligible is already in the HOF.

Palmeiro is 16th in RC; everyone in the top 44 who is eligible is already in the HOF. (Baines is 45th.)

[TGO]

I don't understand why there's all the love for Biggio and not as much for Big Frank.

On a sportsnation poll the majority of people said that Biggio was a lock and a first ballot hall of famer. I don't agree with that, but not enough to really argue about it. What upset me most was that the same poll for Frank Thomas said he was a hall-of-famer but not on the first ballot.

I don't understand how or why Frank has fallen in the eyes of so many people. He's had an OPS over 1.000 in seven different seasons and his career OPS is .985. He was having one of the greatest seasons ever in the strike-shortened 1994 season.

Granted, he had injury problems and was relegated to DH duties, but even when he was hurt he bounced back with awesome seasons in 2000 and 2003. While Biggio was just hanging on in 2006 as a marginal major leaguer, Frank went to a new team and was 4th in the MVP voting. Many people thought he deserved to win the MVP.

Yet still there was another poll that asked "Who had the better career, Frank Thomas or Craig Biggio?" and Biggio carried every state except three. IMO, this isn't even close. Biggio was a good player and likely a HOFer, but he doesn't belong in the same category as Frank.

Frank Thomas is one of the 50 greatest players ever, and if you would've asked me in 1995 if he would be as forgotten as he is now, I would've laughed at you.

Is it because his best years came in the Strike Era?

Is it because of his messy divorce with the White Sox?

What's the deal?

My guess is that Thomas is overlooked somewhat because he spent so much time at DH (and when he did play first he was not good), and because he missed about two and a half seasons (2001, 04, 05) with injuries. Also he played in the "steroid era" (which could probably more appropriately be called the "small ballpark era"), and while he is not necessarily under suspicion, I think everyone's numbers in that era are being taken with a grain of salt.

Frank's a Hall of Famer. No doubt in my mind. Like BTerp said, I try not to worry so much about first ballot or not.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Raffy's comparables

1. Frank Robinson
2. Eddie Murray
3. Dave Winfield
4. Reggie Jackson
5. Mel Ott
6. Al Kaline
7. Fred McGriff
8. Carl Yastrzemski
9. Harold Baines
10. Willie Mays

Is he on your ballot? Or you just don't like him?

1) Based on his on-field accomplishments, absolutely he is on my ballot.

2) This isn't exactly a good comparison unless you believe Biggio is a product of PEDs or something else.

Or, do you just no like Palmeiro either? :p

[BaltimoreTerp]

Not to pick nits, but Yount didn't play most of his career at SS like Ripken did.

Which makes him aan even better comparison, since both Biggio and Yount played middle infield and center field.