We are close huh?

[Sports Guy]

Did you happen to notice what the team looked like after they pulled BRob last night?

2nd- Fahey
SS- Hernandez
3rd- Gomez
LF- Gibbons
CF- CPat
Pitching- Bell

Now think about that for a second....That lineup had more than twice the guys in the lineup with sub 650 OPS's as it did guys with 750 OPS's.

Now, i know Miggy is out, Mora is injured and they just took BRob out for rest but the bottom line is teams that are "close" don't have half of their roster filled with garbage.

[tywright]

Did you happen to notice what the team looked like after they pulled BRob last night?

2nd- Fahey
SS- Hernandez
3rd- Gomez
LF- Gibbons
CF- CPat
Pitching- Bell

Now think about that for a second....That lineup had more than twice the guys in the lineup with sub 650 OPS's as it did guys with 750 OPS's.

Now, i know Miggy is out, Mora is injured and they just took BRob out for rest but the bottom line is teams that are "close" don't have half of their roster filled with garbage.

Yeah I mentioned that to my buddy at the game last night. The only good players on the field were Markakis and Ramon Hernandez

[Big Mac]

Yeah mmy cousin and I were just talking about how having that infield during a Major League baseball game is a joke.

[Skywalker76]

To be honest I think it's pretty embarassing to be a fan of this team right now. Mostly because there is no direction in the whole ballclub.

[Fairfax Bird]

With Bako, L.Hernandez, and Fahey out there they may have the 3 worst hitters in the league on their 25 man roster. The Orioles value the wrong things in baseball players. Makes you pine for the days of Freddie Bynum.:)

[Dipper9]

To be honest I think it's pretty embarassing to be a fan of this team right now. Mostly because there is no direction in the whole ballclub.

MacPhail took over less than a month ago. Can we give him more than 4 weeks to give the team direction? Please?

[Sports Guy]

MacPhail took over less than a month ago. Can we give him more than 4 weeks to give the team direction? Please?
Yea, he gets until the deadline.

[now]

tick tick tick tick tick . . . KABOOM!

(I wish)

[Dipper9]

Yea, he gets until the deadline.

I can live with that.

[Baltimoron]

Did you happen to notice what the team looked like after they pulled BRob last night?

2nd- Fahey
SS- Hernandez
3rd- Gomez
LF- Gibbons
CF- CPat
Pitching- Bell

Now think about that for a second....That lineup had more than twice the guys in the lineup with sub 650 OPS's as it did guys with 750 OPS's.

Now, i know Miggy is out, Mora is injured and they just took BRob out for rest but the bottom line is teams that are "close" don't have half of their roster filled with garbage.

Another nice diversion into irrelevance. Must like the weather, huh?

Actually, many of them do. See what makes teams good is really good players. No one argues (or should) the orioles are "close" because of any of the clowns you listed.

If you want to present evidence why the Os aren't close, talk about the top, not the bottom, of the roster.

[Sports Guy]

Another nice diversion into irrelevance. Must like the weather, huh?

Actually, many of them do. See what makes teams good is really good players. No one argues (or should) the orioles are "close" because of any of the clowns you listed.

If you want to present evidence why the Os aren't close, talk about the top, not the bottom, of the roster.

Thanks Mr Flanagan.

[Will]

Why do people always attack Gomez? He's a quality backup. With Mora and Miggy injured, Gomez has done his job time and time again. He would have a place on a contender.

[Miller192]

MacPhail took over less than a month ago. Can we give him more than 4 weeks to give the team direction? Please?

He's got until ST of 2008. I'm not going to say you've got a couple of weeks to make moves for the sake of making moves. Let's give him an offseason to see what difference he can make.

I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt, but I think you've got to at least give him through the offseason.

[Mackus]

Yea, he gets until the deadline.
You're dreaming if you think this team is making any major moves at the deadline.

Trachsel will be traded and thats the only guy I think will be moved.

[El Gordo]

Yeah I mentioned that to my buddy at the game last night. The only good players on the field were Markakis and Ramon HernandezWhat about that guy who hit the 3 R HR in the 9th? The one with the .857 OPS?

[Flosman]

I don't think it is a horrible sign that anyone of those players are on the roster. But the fact that all of them are is quite the problem IMO.

[Sports Guy]

You're dreaming if you think this team is making any major moves at the deadline.

Trachsel will be traded and thats the only guy I think will be moved.
And if that is all that happens, then MacPhail gets an F and i will not think anything has changed.

So the idea of him getting until the deadline still applies.

[Will]

What about that guy who hit the 3 R HR in the 9th? The one with the .857 OPS?

Kevin Millar? He's no Chris Sabo.

Oh wait lol

[tywright]

What about that guy who hit the 3 R HR in the 9th? The one with the .857 OPS?

he would not be starting on a "good team"

[Sports Guy]

he would not be starting on a "good team"

That's not true.

[thriftyorioles]

Yes, I am curious if all the "we are only 1 big bat away" crowd thinks we can win with the lack of position player depth we still have in our system. I want Tex as much as the next guy, but Texeira only gets this team to .500 even when all are healthy.

We need numerous moves to change things.

[Mackus]

And if that is all that happens, then MacPhail gets an F and i will not think anything has changed.

So the idea of him getting until the deadline still applies.I still haven't decided if I'd like to see them trade Bedard and Roberts or not. But pretty much everybody else other than Markakis and Loewen I'd like to see moved.

Assuming they aren't moving Bedard, Roberts, or Cabrera (which I think is a pretty safe bet) the guys they should be trying tomove are Walker, Bradford, Payton, and Millar. Nobody else has any trade value, and even Payton out of that group probably has negative value.

[El Gordo]

Did you happen to notice what the team looked like after they pulled BRob last night?

2nd- Fahey
SS- Hernandez
3rd- Gomez
LF- Gibbons
CF- CPat
Pitching- Bell

Now think about that for a second....That lineup had more than twice the guys in the lineup with sub 650 OPS's as it did guys with 750 OPS's.

Now, i know Miggy is out, Mora is injured and they just took BRob out for rest but the bottom line is teams that are "close" don't have half of their roster filled with garbage.
They are indeed poor ballplayers, except for Gomez who is an excellent UT. But they are human beings, not garbage. That term better befits the quality and relevance of this thread, if not it's auther.

[Will]

They are indeed poor ballplayers, except for Gomez who is an excellent UT. But they are human beings, not garbage. That term better befits the quality and relevance of this thread, if not it's auther.

Oh crap here we go.

[jdlea]

Oh crap here we go.

Yeah, that was a little out of line...

[El Gordo]

he would not be starting on a "good team"

He would be if he were on the MFY's. Not every team has an all star at every position.

[Sports Guy]

Yeah, that was a little out of line...

That's what i expect of our resident Santa Clause...No one has any respect for him so it is just water off your back, you know?

[Baltimoron]

Thanks Mr Flanagan.

Mensa member,

If a team has half their roster filled with crap and a bunch of really good players, they are a whole lot closer than a team with a bunch of OK players and no super good ones.

Its a lot easier to replace bottom of the barrel players with average players than it is to replace average players with super good players.

Close = what is at the top of the roster.

[sector7g]

You're dreaming if you think this team is making any major moves at the deadline.

Trachsel will be traded and thats the only guy I think will be moved.

I find it hard to believe anyone would give up anything for Trachsel.

I think we should be shopping Bradford, Walker, Millar and Roberts since they are the only guys I could see netting anything in return and all could potentially get us more than they are worth.

I'd love to see Gibbons, Patterson, Payton et al gone too but realistically no one will offer anything in return.

[tywright]

That's not true.

You don't think? He could platoon, but wouldn't start 90% of the time

Only possibilities are MFY, Detroit, and Atlanta

[El Gordo]

Yeah, that was a little out of line...So it's OK to refer to people as garbage, but not to impune the value of this thread? What are your priorities?

[Sports Guy]

You don't think? He could platoon, but wouldn't start 90% of the time

Only possibilities are MFY, Detroit, and Atlanta
Yea, those are possibilities but they certainly fit what you are saying..I mean, a high OBP, decent fielding, good clubhouse type guy with some occassional power can start for good teams.

[jdlea]

So it's OK to refer to people as garbage, but not to impune the value of this thread? What are your priorities?

I was referring to the "if not it's 'auther'" part of your comment

[Sports Guy]

Mensa member,

If a team has half their roster filled with crap and a bunch of really good players, they are a whole lot closer than a team with a bunch of OK players and no super good ones.

Its a lot easier to replace bottom of the barrel players with average players than it is to replace average players with super good players.

Close = what is at the top of the roster.

Unless you are the Orioles....Thus this is one of the many reason they aren't close.

[Baltimoron]

Unless you are the Orioles....Thus this is one of the many reason they aren't close.

Clearly there are yet undiscovered laws in physics.

[Fan4Life]

Did you happen to notice what the team looked like after they pulled BRob last night?

2nd- Fahey
SS- Hernandez
3rd- Gomez
LF- Gibbons
CF- CPat
Pitching- Bell

Now think about that for a second....That lineup had more than twice the guys in the lineup with sub 650 OPS's as it did guys with 750 OPS's.

Now, i know Miggy is out, Mora is injured and they just took BRob out for rest but the bottom line is teams that are "close" don't have half of their roster filled with garbage.


In the "What If Dept" .... These bunch of slackers likey would have come away with a victory had Guthrie had is usual performance...

[Mackus]

Unless you are the Orioles....Thus this is one of the many reason they aren't close.Thats a little bit of circular logic.

The Orioles have the right set of players to be close except for the fact that they are the Orioles and hence cannot replace the dreck with average players. :)

[tywright]

Yea, those are possibilities but they certainly fit what you are saying..I mean, a high OBP, decent fielding, good clubhouse type guy with some occassional power can start for good teams.

Hmmm maybe we shouldn't trade him. I like Millar and think he is very valuable for any contending team, but when I looked at the field after BRob was taken out last night, only Ramon and Markakis struck me as legitimate starters for a "good team" (as Millar called us last night).

[El Gordo]

I was referring to the "if not it's 'auther'" part of your commentSo what does that imply? Literally I'm saying it desn't apply to the Author. But it's OK to call ballplayers garbage in your book but not SG, who frequently does the same thing to posters hear?

[Mackus]

In the "What If Dept" .... These bunch of slackers likey would have come away with a victory had Guthrie had is usual performance...In a more realistic "What If" department:

What if Guthrie has his normal performance and then the White Sox just go to Jenks to start with a 4-2 lead in the 9th?

[Sports Guy]

Thats a little bit of circular logic.

The Orioles have the right set of players to be close except for the fact that they are the Orioles and hence cannot replace the dreck with average players. :)
Who said that?

[Sports Guy]

So what does that imply? Literally I'm saying it desn't apply to the Author. But it's OK to call ballplayers garbage in your book but not SG, who frequently does the same thing to posters hear?

Do you need a tissue cause you sure do cry a lot.

[Boston Dave]

So what does that imply? Literally I'm saying it desn't apply to the Author. But it's OK to call ballplayers garbage in your book but not SG, who frequently does the same thing to posters hear?

For cryin' out loud guys, stick to the meat of the thread.

Now back to how we suck...

[NewMarketSean]

This seems to happen each year... an overwhelming portion of our roster is filled with crap. Yeah injuries happen, but at some point you've got to start looking at organizational depth. And this year we actually have some with Knott, House and DuBois but they aren't getting a look either.

Unacceptable.

[davearm]

And if that is all that happens, then MacPhail gets an F and i will not think anything has changed.

So the idea of him getting until the deadline still applies.
What decisions/trades/roster moves could plausibly be made to put the O's in a significantly different position one month from now?

Answer: none, short of trading Bedard and/or Roberts. Anything short of that is just the proverbial rearranging of deck chairs: some faces may change, but the outlook will remain the same.

So what you're saying is that MacPhail will be a failure if he doesn't trade one or both of those guys by the trade deadline.

[Rex Thunder]

he would not be starting on a "good team"

Well, he was a kew contributor to the Red Sox team that won the World Series and I do not think his play has declined much since then. He's still the same fast ball pull hitter.

[Sports Guy]

What decisions/trades/roster moves could plausibly be made to put the O's in a significantly different position one month from now?

Answer: none, short of trading Bedard and/or Roberts. Anything short of that is just the proverbial rearranging of deck chairs: some faces may change, but the outlook will remain the same.

So what you're saying is that MacPhail will be a failure if he doesn't trade one or both of those guys by the trade deadline.

Half of this roster should be changed.

Now, understand that when i say that, i am also talking about releasing or sending down guys and replacing them with guys in the minors.

For example, Knott, House, Dubois, Doyne and Hoey should be here on aug 1 IMO.

Not saying those guys make us contenders or anything like that but they certainly could be solid role players for us in the future and not cost much of anything.

Not every move has to be a trade is what i am saying.

[El Gordo]

Do you need a tissue cause you sure do cry a lot.No but I have some Charmin if you need some, I think you might.:D Sorry Boston Dave I'll stop now.:D

[Boston Dave]

What decisions/trades/roster moves could plausibly be made to put the O's in a significantly different position one month from now?

Answer: none, short of trading Bedard and/or Roberts. Anything short of that is just the proverbial rearranging of deck chairs: some faces may change, but the outlook will remain the same.

So what you're saying is that MacPhail will be a failure if he doesn't trade one or both of those guys by the trade deadline.

I don't know if that is true, sticking to your bolded point, above. Keeping Bedard and Roberts, we could still:

1. release Gibbons.
2. trade Huff and Payton for any kind of prospect.
3. release Bako and see if House can be a credible 08 backup to Hernandez.
4. dangle Ray and Cabrera and see how close we get to Crawford.

Doing the first 3 and attempting #4 would give me some hope.

[Fan4Life]

What decisions/trades/roster moves could plausibly be made to put the O's in a significantly different position one month from now?

Answer: none, short of trading Bedard and/or Roberts. Anything short of that is just the proverbial rearranging of deck chairs: some faces may change, but the outlook will remain the same.

So what you're saying is that MacPhail will be a failure if he doesn't trade one or both of those guys by the trade deadline.


I agree with you competely. And, you could extend those sentiments to the 2008 season. I don't see much in the FA market and if we're keeping our pitching, how can we improve?

[LOUDOUN_BIRD]

Did you happen to notice what the team looked like after they pulled BRob last night?

2nd- Fahey
SS- Hernandez
3rd- Gomez
LF- Gibbons
CF- CPat
Pitching- Bell

Now think about that for a second....That lineup had more than twice the guys in the lineup with sub 650 OPS's as it did guys with 750 OPS's.

Now, i know Miggy is out, Mora is injured and they just took BRob out for rest but the bottom line is teams that are "close" don't have half of their roster filled with garbage.

Totally summed up how silly this roster is -- and the sad part is adding Miggy and Mora (Moron for his base running) doesn't turn it into the 61Yanks (or 70 Birds). They are 4-5 position players away ....

[tywright]

Well, he was a kew contributor to the Red Sox team that won the World Series and I do not think his play has declined much since then. He's still the same fast ball pull hitter.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/millake01.shtml

His play has declined prior to this season. His OBP of .399 would be a career high, but his slg pct is still below his 2003 and 2004 seasons with Boston

[davearm]

I don't know if that is true, sticking to your bolded point, above. Keeping Bedard and Roberts, we could still:

1. release Gibbons.
2. trade Huff and Payton for any kind of prospect.
3. release Bako and see if House can be a credible 08 backup to Hernandez.
4. dangle Ray and Cabrera and see how close we get to Crawford.

Doing the first 3 and attempting #4 would give me some hope.
Except for the last one, those are all moves that will have virtually no impact on the O's future, or their W/L record.

It's just rearranging deck chairs.

If you want a bold, radically different direction, you're not getting it in the next 30 days.

[Big Mac]

he would not be starting on a "good team"

AL First base OPS leaders

C. Pena 1.002

M. Teixiera .959

J. Mourneau .948

K. Youkilis .918

P. Konerko .859

K. Millar .856


http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?teamPosCode=3&statType=1&timeFrame=1&c_id=mlb&statSet1=2&sitSplit=&venueID=&section1=1&subScope=pos&baseballScope=AL&timeSubFrame=2007&&sortByStat=OPS

[Boston Dave]

Totally summed up how silly this roster is -- and the sad part is adding Miggy and Mora (Moron for his base running) doesn't turn it into the 61Yanks (or 70 Birds). They are 4-5 position players away ....

It's all relative. With the RIGHT mashing LFer, bring CPat back, and sign a credible guy that can be a super 4th OFer..a new closer, trading Ray or moving him back to setup..and an upgrade at either 3rd or short..radically improved bench..we'd be respectable.

How many players was that? :eek:

[tywright]

AL First base OPS leaders

C. Pena 1.002

M. Teixiera .959

J. Mourneau .948

K. Youkilis .918

P. Konerko .859

K. Millar .856


http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?teamPosCode=3&statType=1&timeFrame=1&c_id=mlb&statSet1=2&sitSplit=&venueID=&section1=1&subScope=pos&baseballScope=AL&timeSubFrame=2007&&sortByStat=OPS

I qualified my statement by saying he would be a good 1B platoon for a good team like NYY, Detroit or Atlanta. He is not a good hitter against lefties, as evidenced by his .246, .244, and .250 BA the past 3 seasons. Also we are failing to realize how much of disadvantage he is on the basepaths.

[hoosiers]

Did you happen to notice what the team looked like after they pulled BRob last night?

2nd- Fahey
SS- Hernandez
3rd- Gomez
LF- Gibbons
CF- CPat
Pitching- Bell

Now think about that for a second....That lineup had more than twice the guys in the lineup with sub 650 OPS's as it did guys with 750 OPS's.

Now, i know Miggy is out, Mora is injured and they just took BRob out for rest but the bottom line is teams that are "close" don't have half of their roster filled with garbage.

When the NYY are getting blown out, they will put in guys of the Cairo, Flaherty, Cano, ilk, this happens to most teams. I think to make a big deal out of the worst potential lineup on the 25 man roster is not necessary - and yields little information from which a real conclusion can be drawn - particularly whether the team is ready to compete or not.

[El Gordo]

Except for the last one, those are all moves that will have virtually no impact on the O's future, or their W/L record.

It's just rearranging deck chairs.

If you want a bold, radically different direction, you're not getting it in the next 30 days.
Unless you move some pitching for real bats. I think they have to do that.

[Mackus]

So what you're saying is that MacPhail will be a failure if he doesn't trade one or both of those guys by the trade deadline.I don't think he's meaning to go quite that far, but he'd probably consider him a failure if they don't move Walker, Bradford, and Millar.

I don't know that we'd get a whole lot back for those guys, but I do think they should be moved. I wouldn't call MacPhail a failure if they aren't (and I think thats too drastic) but I will be disappointed if these guys aren't shopped a bit.

[El Gordo]

When the NYY are getting blown out, they will put in guys of the Cairo, Flaherty, Cano, ilk, this happens to most teams. I think to make a big deal out of the worst potential lineup on the 25 man roster is not necessary - and yields little information from which a real conclusion can be drawn - particularly whether the team is ready to compete or not.Really. Suppose the MFY's had Jeter, Cairo and ARod on the DL. What would that team look like?

[El Gordo]

I don't think he's meaning to go quite that far, but he'd probably consider him a failure if they don't move Walker, Bradford, and Millar.

I don't know that we'd get a whole lot back for those guys, but I do think they should be moved. I wouldn't call MacPhail a failure if they aren't (and I think thats too drastic) but I will be disappointed if these guys aren't shopped a bit.
If you are not getting back something you need more, why move guys who could be usefull players for you the rest of the season and next? They aren't costing you that much. I still say the only meaningful moves involve trading pitching for a young, long term bat like Crawford.

[Say O!]

Let's give McPhail the offseason too - there's a lot, A LOT, of purging to do.

Number 1 goal should be to not do anything stupid - aka sign the Gibbons, Huffs, Paytons, Baezs of the world.

Number 2 goal is to clear space for the pitching prospects in the minors - Hoey, Doyne, Olson, Penn, Liz - to have a roster spot sometime in 2008.

Number 3 goal should be to acquire an above average outfielder (look the O's arent' getting anyone from the minors to produce until 2009, and by then, only Markakis will still be in OF). This can be accomplished in several ways - FA signing, trade, and pipe dream of AROD then Mora to LF.


If accomplished, I would consider this a success. Although with only purging and 1 new acquisition, the OH board would villify as "same old, same old" - without understanding that the O's pitching will be there in 2 years. It's the hardest piece to assemble. I fail to see how trading pitching (Bedard) puts the O's in a better position to compete in 2 years and longer term.

[Mark Carver]

he would not be starting on a "good team"

Who's DH'ing for the Angels?

[Sports Guy]

When the NYY are getting blown out, they will put in guys of the Cairo, Flaherty, Cano, ilk, this happens to most teams. I think to make a big deal out of the worst potential lineup on the 25 man roster is not necessary - and yields little information from which a real conclusion can be drawn - particularly whether the team is ready to compete or not.

Hoosiers, half of our team is pathetically bad. There isn't much in the way of denying that.

[section34]

He's got until ST of 2008. I'm not going to say you've got a couple of weeks to make moves for the sake of making moves. Let's give him an offseason to see what difference he can make.

I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt, but I think you've got to at least give him through the offseason.
Exactly! Giving a guy a few months to fix THIS entire organization is laughable. If McPhail has complete autonomy then we have to give him through the offseason to really start changing things.

[Mackus]

If you are not getting back something you need more, why move guys who could be usefull players for you the rest of the season and next? They aren't costing you that much. I still say the only meaningful moves involve trading pitching for a young, long term bat like Crawford.They are costing us a lot, and aren't doing anything for us. Moving Walker and Bradford frees up $6M a year for the next two years that can be spent on the draft or elsewhere. And it prevents us from having to eat salary once those guys decline (both are old, especially Walker).

Secondly, I think we can get something worth moving them for, although not top prospects by any means. I think for each of Walker, Bradford, and Millar we should be able to get someone in the 8-12 region of a team's top prospects. Add 3 more Pedro Beato's, Chris Vinyard's, or Brandon Snyder's to our farm system and our overall depth looks a lot better.

[tywright]

Who's DH'ing for the Angels?

Garret Anderson right now

[El Gordo]

Hoosiers, half of our team is pathetically bad. There isn't much in the way of denying that.I would consider Bako, Hernandez, Fahey, Gibbons and possibly Trax and Baez depending on how they do the next few weeks in the pathetically bad category That's 6. Who are the other 6.5? The rest of the team ranges from mediocre to good IMO.

[Mark Carver]

Garret Anderson right now

And do you think Anderson should be DH'ing over say Millar?

[Sports Guy]

I would consider Bako, Hernandez, Fahey, Gibbons and possibly Trax and Baez deending on how they do the next few weeks in the pathetically bad category That's 6. Who are the other 6.5? The rest of the team ranges from mediocre to good IMO.

Payton, CPat, Gibbons, L.Hernandez, Fahey, Bell, bako, Gibbons, Baez, Parrish, Bynum and Trax are all very bad.

Gomez is a decent UTi guy but he is certainly nothing special either.

A few of them have the ability to be better but they aren't right now.

Mora, over the past few weeks, has gotten out of that category but likely isn't far behind.

There are guys that are replacement level players at best right now.

They aren't good.

Put it another way...You could drop 13 of the 14 guys i mentioned(excluding MelMo) and bring up 13-14 guys from our system to replace them and i doubt you skip a beat in terms of production.

EDIT: Until he starts hitting, Huff should be on this list as well.

[tywright]

And do you think Anderson should be DH'ing over say Millar?

Against LHP, yes...even though Anderson is LH batter, he still hits better against lefities than Millar

[El Gordo]

Payton, CPat, Gibbons, L.Hernandez, Fahey, Bell, bako, Gibbons, Baez, Parrish, Bynum and Trax are all very bad.

Gomez is a decent UTi guy but he is certainly nothing special either.

A few of them have the ability to be better but they aren't right now.

Mora, over the past few weeks, has gotten out of that category but likely isn't far behind.

There are guys that are replacement level players at best right now.

They aren't good.

Put it another way...You could drop 13 of the 14 guys i mentioned(excluding MelMo) and bring up 13-14 guys from our system to replace them and i doubt you skip a beat in terms of production.

EDIT: Until he starts hitting, Huff should be on this list as well.

Lets see, That would be: Millar 1B, Brob 2B, Gomez SS, Cervanick 3B, Knott, LF, Stern CF, Nick RF, Hernandez C, House, C2, Dubois DH, Torres UT, Fio 4OF, Tiffey UT. RP:Ray, Walker, Bradford, Shuey, Birkins, Hoey, Doyne
SP:Bedard, DCab, Gutherie, Olson, Burres. Boy what fun.

[rochester]

I still haven't decided if I'd like to see them trade Bedard and Roberts or not. But pretty much everybody else other than Markakis and Loewen I'd like to see moved.

Assuming they aren't moving Bedard, Roberts, or Cabrera (which I think is a pretty safe bet) the guys they should be trying tomove are Walker, Bradford, Payton, and Millar. Nobody else has any trade value, and even Payton out of that group probably has negative value.

Huh? your on the fence with Bedard and BRob but believe Markakis and Loewen are untouchable? Did I read this correctly?

[sector7g]

Huh? your on the fence with Bedard and BRob but believe Markakis and Loewen are untouchable? Did I read this correctly?

That's about where I stand too. They are two players approaching free agency that are about as valuable as they are going to get and could single handedly (or is that double?!) turn the team around by being dealt for perhaps 3 prospects each.

Forget dealing Trax, Payton etc, those moves (if you could find a buyer) wouldn't make any difference to this organisation.

I'd much rather deal BRob than Bedard, but as has been said a million times that all depends if you can extend him.

Markakis and Loewen on the other hand are cheap and with us for several years whether they want to be or not! The type of players we should build around.

[Sports Guy]

Lets see, That would be: Millar 1B, Brob 2B, Gomez SS, Cervanick 3B, Knott, LF, Stern CF, Nick RF, Hernandez C, House, C2, Dubois DH, Torres UT, Fio 4OF, Tiffey UT. RP:Ray, Walker, Bradford, Shuey, Birkins, Hoey, Doyne
SP:Bedard, DCab, Gutherie, Olson, Burres. Boy what fun.

More fun than what we have out there now.

BTW, Mora is ok for now...I even said that.

[davearm]

More fun than what we have out there now.

BTW, Mora is ok for now...I even said that.
Regardless, your math just doesn't add up.

You want 12-14 guys dumped off of the ML roster, but you've identified only 5 or 6 MiL guys you want called up (House Knott Dubois Hoey Doyne are the ones I recall).

Of course the larger point is that none of that will amount to squat in terms of the O's longterm future. They're minor moves of aging veterans for career AAAAs and unproven relievers. That's hardly evidence of significant progress on MacPhail's watch.

[Sports Guy]

Regardless, your math just doesn't add up.

You want 12-14 guys dumped off of the ML roster, but you've identified only 5 or 6 MiL guys you want called up (House Knott Dubois Hoey Doyne are the ones I recall).

Of course the larger point is that none of that will amount to squat in terms of the O's longterm future. They're minor moves of aging veterans for career AAAAs and unproven relievers. That's hardly evidence of significant progress on MacPhail's watch.

Bradford, Walker, Trax, Millar and Payton could all certainly yield us guys who could be ML contributors down the road.

This is before talking about Miggy and some of the bigger names.

And of course guys like Knott, Hoey and House could be here for the next 2-4 years.

BTW, i didn't say every move would be someone called up, now did I?

[Mackus]

Huh? your on the fence with Bedard and BRob but believe Markakis and Loewen are untouchable? Did I read this correctly?That's right. Bedard and Roberts are our two best players, but they're both at the age where they might not be great by the time we're ready to contend. It'll cripple us for a couple years (and could probably cause Tex to not want to sign with us) but they'll bring a huge return of talent.

Markakis and Loewen are the types of players we'd be targetting in trades of Bedard and Roberts, young guys with a lot of upside who are under control and cheap for a long time.

I'd be trying to get back 3 top level AAA prospects and 1 younger good prospect if we traded Roberts and Bedard. Something like Gomez and Pelfrey (NYM) for Roberts and Elbert, Kemp, and a lesser guy (LAD) for Bedard.

[Sports Guy]

That's right. Bedard and Roberts are our two best players, but they're both at the age where they might not be great by the time we're ready to contend. It'll cripple us for a couple years (and could probably cause Tex to not want to sign with us) but they'll bring a huge return of talent.

Markakis and Loewen are the types of players we'd be targetting in trades of Bedard and Roberts, young guys with a lot of upside who are under control and cheap for a long time.

I'd be trying to get back 3 top level AAA prospects and 1 younger good prospect if we traded Roberts and Bedard. Something like Gomez and Pelfrey (NYM) for Roberts and Elbert, Kemp, and a lesser guy (LAD) for Bedard.
Elbert is done for the year..Believe he needs TJ surgery.

Either way, they wouldn't be a good trade for Bedard anyway.

[Mackus]

Elbert is done for the year..Believe he needs TJ surgery.

Either way, they wouldn't be a good trade for Bedard anyway.
Hadn't heard that, but thats just an example. I'd want two guys who are very good specs and close to MLB ready and one lesser guy who is at A or AA in return for Bedard. You're not gonna get 3 studs, but you should be able to get 2 and one other guy. For Roberts I'd want one stud and one slightly lower rated guy, both close to MLB ready. Basically 4 guys we are very confidant will be MLB impact players in 2 years or less and then 1-2 more guys who are wild cards.

[Mad Mark]

Oh crap here we go.

No...I have to side with EG here. We can say they're bad ballplayers, and (except for Gomez, in this equation) be exactly right. Even if they're playing like garbage, they aren't garbage.
(Sorry to be late to the party with this.)

[Mad Mark]

This seems to happen each year... an overwhelming portion of our roster is filled with crap. Yeah injuries happen, but at some point you've got to start looking at organizational depth. And this year we actually have some with Knott, House and DuBois but they aren't getting a look either.

Unacceptable.

Any of those three play 3B, SS or 2B? If not, your point, while well taken is irrelevant to this thread...:D

[Mad Mark]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/millake01.shtml

His play has declined prior to this season. His OBP of .399 would be a career high, but his slg pct is still below his 2003 and 2004 seasons with Boston

True, but would that be as much of a problem if the entire freakin' team wasn't in a power drought?

[Sports Guy]

Hadn't heard that, but thats just an example. I'd want two guys who are very good specs and close to MLB ready and one lesser guy who is at A or AA in return for Bedard. You're not gonna get 3 studs, but you should be able to get 2 and one other guy. For Roberts I'd want one stud and one slightly lower rated guy, both close to MLB ready. Basically 4 guys we are very confidant will be MLB impact players in 2 years or less and then 1-2 more guys who are wild cards.

Your Roberts deal is fine.

I don't trade Bedard for anything less than 3 very good ML ready players.

Other than that, i keep him and hope to extend him over the next year.

[zrex]

Let's trade established Major League stars entering their prime like like Roberts and Bedard for unproven minor league prospects? Sounds like actual rebuilding, but at this point I don't think any fan would tolerate it since we've been supposedly rebuilding for the last 10 years. I guess the Orioles rebuilding plans consist of trading prospects for mid-level, overpriced veterans (think Maine for Benson or everyone for Sosa) and signing one hit wonders and mediocre players on the decline for far too much money (J. Lopez, Huff, Payton, etc).

I don't think a massive firesale and bringing up a bunch of veteran mediocre minor leaguers will solve our problems, but thanks for trying I suppose.

[Sports Guy]

Let's trade established Major League stars entering their prime like like Roberts and Bedard for unproven minor league prospects? Sounds like actual rebuilding, but at this point I don't think any fan would tolerate it since we've been supposedly rebuilding for the last 10 years. I guess the Orioles rebuilding plans consist of trading prospects for mid-level, overpriced veterans (think Maine for Benson or everyone for Sosa) and signing one hit wonders and mediocre players on the decline for far too much money (J. Lopez, Huff, Payton, etc).

I don't think a massive firesale and bringing up a bunch of veteran mediocre minor leaguers will solve our problems, but thanks for trying I suppose.
I sure as hell would.

[Say O!]

On the whole, MLB GM's have shown a much greater reluctance to trade top prospects over the last 2 years. Even for arb eligible players. They would rather have promising players making less than $1M on their roster than trade for guys in the $7M range.

For us to think that multiple bidders would line up with 3 top tier prospects for Bedard - it is not procedure anymore....that stuff happened a few years back.

Now, SG and others will come back and say that "you need to be creative" or "just b/c it hasn't happened, doesn't mean you cannot pull it off." Well, there is a reason these trades do not take place anymore - and until the economics change, the trades will continue to be non-existant.

(For the record, I do like trading - I call it purging - the roster vets including Walker, Bradford, etc. You need to clear salary for a future superstar level acquistion - like a Tex. However, interesting to see that on BBTN last night, all of the analysts would rather have 3 players for $30M than AROD.)

[geschinger]

Your Roberts deal is fine.

I don't trade Bedard for anything less than 3 very good ML ready players.

Other than that, i keep him and hope to extend him over the next year.

I'd be a bit more flexible. If the third guy had a ceiling like a Marrero, Tabata, Adenhart etc. I'd have no problem taking them as part of a pkg even though they aren't ML ready.

[geschinger]

On the whole, MLB GM's have shown a much greater reluctance to trade top prospects over the last 2 years. Even for arb eligible players. They would rather have promising players making less than $1M on their roster than trade for guys in the $7M range.

For us to think that multiple bidders would line up with 3 top tier prospects for Bedard - it is not procedure anymore....that stuff happened a few years back.

Shop around... If you can get a great offer don't hesistate to take it. Since we wouldn't be forced to trade anyone, if teams are unwilling to put a big package together no harm no foul.

[Sports Guy]

I'd be a bit more flexible. If the third guy had a ceiling like a Marrero, Tabata, Adenhart etc. I'd have no problem taking them as part of a pkg even though they aren't ML ready.

Ok, i can agree with this. But it needs to be 3 high ceiling players.

SayO...Players like Bedard are never available and under these circumstances. He is a unique case.

[zrex]

Sports Guy, what minor leaguers do you think would actually help if we dumped off all of the big leaguers like you suggest?

I know you mentioned Knott and House, but where do they fit in? Knott is normally one of the best hitters in the minors, but he's barely scraping by at .230 with only 8 homeruns in AAA and is pushing 30. He's a spare parts parking lot player, nothing more. House can hit, but not much of a fielder. He could be a backup catcher/part time DH, but not much more.

[Fan4Life]

However, interesting to see that on BBTN last night, all of the analysts would rather have 3 players for $30M than AROD.)

I was thinking like that as well.. until this morning when the discussion on ESPN was about ARod eventually breaking the HR record and saving all of us from Barry Bonds... then I began to think what it would be like having the man going to break that record on our team? Along with the record for longest games played, both Oriole shortstops.... :)

On the money side, ARod would bring in a lot of revenue in jersay sales etc, some increase in attendance, selling out when he is close to breaking the record... so I have become more accustomed to that idea today than I was yesterday...

[Hallas]

On the whole, MLB GM's have shown a much greater reluctance to trade top prospects over the last 2 years. Even for arb eligible players. They would rather have promising players making less than $1M on their roster than trade for guys in the $7M range.

For us to think that multiple bidders would line up with 3 top tier prospects for Bedard - it is not procedure anymore....that stuff happened a few years back.

Now, SG and others will come back and say that "you need to be creative" or "just b/c it hasn't happened, doesn't mean you cannot pull it off." Well, there is a reason these trades do not take place anymore - and until the economics change, the trades will continue to be non-existant.

(For the record, I do like trading - I call it purging - the roster vets including Walker, Bradford, etc. You need to clear salary for a future superstar level acquistion - like a Tex. However, interesting to see that on BBTN last night, all of the analysts would rather have 3 players for $30M than AROD.)

I think that's the wrong way to think. Star players (a group where ARod belongs at the head of the class) always bring a better return for your money than mid-level free agents. They think 3 Gary Matthews Jrs. will help them more? Perhaps they're right, but they might want to rethink that logic in 3 years, when players like Matthews decline significantly, while ARod's decline still equals a .930 OPS at a more valued defensive position.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Shop around... If you can get a great offer don't hesistate to take it. Since we wouldn't be forced to trade anyone, if teams are unwilling to put a big package together no harm no foul.

This is exactly right.

My worry is that on August first, if Bedard and Roberts are still here, and Teixiera is not, people are going to go off on McPhail no matter what other minor moves are made.

The logic of the opening post is flawed, at least to a point. If Tejada and Mora were in the lineup, Hernandez and Fahey would not be on the roster. Gomez and Bynum are backups (and, oh by the way, Bynum has a .852 OPS in his limited playing time), and this team looks better.

When the core is Tejada, Mora, Roberts, Hernandez, and Markakis; and then you have serviceable players in Millar, Huff and Patterson that have valuable skills you can use under the right circumstances, you really only need one or two bats to make the offense work enough to add to the starting pitching and make a contender.

It would have to be a Teixiera or Rodriguez or Jones or Dunn kind of bat, but it is possible. Maybe not likely for multiple reasons, but it can be made to work.

[geschinger]

Perhaps they're right, but they might want to rethink that logic in 3 years, when players like Matthews decline significantly, while ARod's decline still equals a .930 OPS at a more valued defensive position.

Is there any evidence that stars decline at a much lessor rate than non-stars?

[BaltimoreTerp]

Sports Guy, what minor leaguers do you think would actually help if we dumped off all of the big leaguers like you suggest?

I know you mentioned Knott and House, but where do they fit in? Knott is normally one of the best hitters in the minors, but he's barely scraping by at .230 with only 8 homeruns in AAA and is pushing 30. He's a spare parts parking lot player, nothing more. House can hit, but not much of a fielder. He could be a backup catcher/part time DH, but not much more.

You put House as the DH and Knott as the pinch-hitting star on the bench.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Curious assertion... Is there any evidence that stars decline at a much lessor rate than non-stars?

Rodriguez has a track record, more talent to tap and further to fall from then Matthews.

[Fan4Life]

This is exactly right.

My worry is that on August first, if Bedard and Roberts are still here, and Teixiera is not, people are going to go off on McPhail no matter what other minor moves are made.

The logic of the opening post is flawed, at least to a point. If Tejada and Mora were in the lineup, Hernandez and Fahey would not be on the roster. Gomez and Bynum are backups (and, oh by the way, Bynum has a .852 OPS in his limited playing time), and this team looks better.

When the core is Tejada, Mora, Roberts, Hernandez, and Markakis; and then you have serviceable players in Millar, Huff and Patterson that have valuable skills you can use under the right circumstances, you really only need one or two bats to make the offense work enough to add to the starting pitching and make a contender.

It would have to be a Teixiera or Rodriguez or Jones or Dunn kind of bat, but it is possible. Maybe not likely for multiple reasons, but it can be made to work.

Can we afford 2 of those 4 at the same time? Is a $120mil payroll out of the question if one of them is ARod?

[zrex]

You put House as the DH and Knott as the pinch-hitting star on the bench.

I can agree with that. But they suggested earlier that we would be better off if we dropped 15 or so MLB players and promoted minor leaguers to rebuild. Those two aren't the future. Maybe House can stick around for a couple years if he can swing the stick well, but it most likely isn't going to happen.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Can we afford 2 of those 4 at the same time? Is a $120mil payroll out of the question if one of them is ARod?

I think we CAN.

Whether or not we will is one of those multiple reasons.

[zrex]

(and, oh by the way, Bynum has a .852 OPS in his limited playing time)

Key word there is limited. You still think he'd have those numbers if they gave him regular playing time?

I don't know the guy personally, but he seems like a problem. At a game a few weeks back, he botched a play in center field (ran backwards to have it land way far in front of him). So of course the fans let him have it. When he was going out the next inning, he pointed to the stands, then pointed at his shoes trying to say "you can't fill them." On his way back to the dugout, he received even more heckling and flashed the bird (no not the Orioles bird) to us before he went in. A real class act. The family sitting next to us did not enjoy that.

As much as I hate Amber Theoharris' crap on the backpage of the Pressbox, she made a valid point a few weeks ago when she said we need a real team leader. She suggested Millar, which doesn't seem to fit since he's more of the joker of the bunch. I don't think anyone on roster is a good fit for a captain of the team. I think that kind of presence would definitely help the team. Any opinions on who could fill the void?

[geschinger]

Rodriguez has a track record, more talent to tap and further to fall from then Matthews.

I'm not sure I understand? What does his track record tell us about how his body will hold up when he hits his mid/late 30s?

I'm not saying he wouldn't still be more productive than the midlevel guy. But say the average player's production diminishes by 20% after 35. Can we expect the average superstar to have their production diminish by less compared the guys who are only good players? With no evidence pointing me one way or the other, I would think that they would suffer the same type of declines everyone else does.

[zrex]

You can't put a number on these kinds of things. It's impossible to predict how someone will or won't decline. Let's just pick up Julio Franco, he needs a home and he didn't decline that fast after 35. He can hit better than Gibby too. I'd bet he can field better, too.

[oriole_way]

Payton, CPat, Gibbons, L.Hernandez, Fahey, Bell, bako, Gibbons, Baez, Parrish, Bynum and Trax are all very bad.

Gomez is a decent UTi guy but he is certainly nothing special either.

A few of them have the ability to be better but they aren't right now.

Mora, over the past few weeks, has gotten out of that category but likely isn't far behind.

There are guys that are replacement level players at best right now.

They aren't good.

Put it another way...You could drop 13 of the 14 guys i mentioned(excluding MelMo) and bring up 13-14 guys from our system to replace them and i doubt you skip a beat in terms of production.

EDIT: Until he starts hitting, Huff should be on this list as well.

A small point of contention:

Of these 14 players that you say we could drop, a few are actually call ups from our system already. This would include Fahey, Hernandez and Bell for example. So technically, they probably should be included with the cheap replacement level guys from the system rather than lumping them with the guys that should be dropped.

I'm not saying that Fahey, Hernandez and Bell are building blocks. Just that they are from the minors (just like House, Knott, etc.) and thus they are part of the cheap replacement level players that you often talk about.

The guys that should be dropped are the guys who make too much money for their production, the guys who are older, and guys who need to be moved because they are blocking real prospects like Olson and Hoey.

A. Guys making too much money for their production - Gibbons, Payton, Huff, Baez.

These guys are addition by subtraction because they free up payroll. But the problem is that clubs are going to ask us to eat portions of their contracts, especially with regards to Gibbons and Baez. If we're eating large portions of their contracts, it doesn't do us much good.

B. Guys who are older but are reasonably productive - Millar, Walker, Bradford, and Mora.

These are guys who we have the best chance of moving, because they could actually help a team in playoff contention. Still don't see getting much back in return though besides a mid level prospect. Mora of course has that NTC. Yes maybe he would waive it, but it's another obstacle.

C. Guys who are blocking prospects - Traschel.

Traschel was/is obviously blocking Olson. The only other prospects that really deserve a shot right now are Doyne, Hoey and House, and maybe Knott. But if we move guys from A and B, then spots will be created for them.

Maybe I missed somebody, but that's how I essentially see it. Ultimately, these steps would be small positive changes, but they aren't going to free up that much payroll, or bring back blue chip prospects who will lead us back to glory.

If we really want to change course, we are going to have to try to trade Bedard, Roberts and Tejada (inj). They are the only guys who could net blue chip prospects who could be on the next good Orioles team. And of course, Tejada's value is diminished both by his injury and his declining power numbers.

(Note: Obviously there is overlap in categories A, B and C. If you want to say that Huff and Payton belong in B or whatever, I won't quibble.)

[zrex]

Huff is not producing right now, but he's a notorious second half hitter (15, 14, 13 homeruns in the second half the past three years) so he may end up helping out somewhat, but he won't match his production of previous years. He's been in a steady decline, so why the Orioles decided to blow 6.7 million a year on him is beyond me, but most of the things they do are beyond me these days.

I agree with the Trachsel block Olson statement. The guy was a 15 game winner last season because of run support, not pitching greatness. His era barely stayed a smidge under 5 and he's got 14 more walks than strikeouts so far this year. He's pushing 40 and not getting any younger or better. If the Orioles truly want to rebuild like they keep saying but not doing, then they need to stop signing overpriced, mediocre, over the hill players and give the rookies a chance (the few we have left since we traded them all for those said players). There will be growing pains obviously, but the organization is at an all time low, so is there really anything to lose at this point?

[eddie83]

Every team has dead weight, including good teams. If you acquire 2 big bats-not saying we will- it would make a huge difference. You put less pressure on the guys struggling to perform. Look at the Tigers offense this year. The Tigers bullpen is struggling alot but their offense is carrying them. This year we put all the weight of the team on the bullpen and when they struggled we were finished because our lineup isn't good enough. Two legit hitters if effective would in theory based on the number of close losses we have would of made a difference. Will two hitters alone put us in contention?, I don't know but I would like to see how much it would help. At least I would feel like we have a fighting chance to be successfull instead of crossing my fingers hoping we can get to .500. We have been playing shorthanded for years asking people to hit where we need them not where they should be.

As far as MacPhail goes I am more concerned with who is on our opening day roster in 2008 then what happens by July 31. I hope he can make some moves by the deadline to help us for sure but he has the entire offseason as well. The players I think we have that we can move are Millar, Patterson, Trachsel and maybe Payton. Baez and Gibbons are our problems and I don't see anyone taking them on. Mora didn't sign a NTC so after 4 months he could be traded. I have no problem trying to trade Walker or Bradford but we do need someone if we are going to try to be better next year for those roles.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Key word there is limited. You still think he'd have those numbers if they gave him regular playing time?

I don't know the guy personally, but he seems like a problem. At a game a few weeks back, he botched a play in center field (ran backwards to have it land way far in front of him). So of course the fans let him have it. When he was going out the next inning, he pointed to the stands, then pointed at his shoes trying to say "you can't fill them." On his way back to the dugout, he received even more heckling and flashed the bird (no not the Orioles bird) to us before he went in. A real class act. The family sitting next to us did not enjoy that.

Of course he wouldn't. However, people think most of the fans in the stands are better ballplayers then him, when he is looking like a guy who is playing much better then expected.

And if you don't want him flashing you the bird, then don't heckle him.

[davearm]

Bradford, Walker, Trax, Millar and Payton could all certainly yield us guys who could be ML contributors down the road.

This is before talking about Miggy and some of the bigger names.

And of course guys like Knott, Hoey and House could be here for the next 2-4 years.

BTW, i didn't say every move would be someone called up, now did I?
As a matter of fact, that's exactly what you said, back in post #70.


You could drop 13 of the 14 guys i mentioned(excluding MelMo) and bring up 13-14 guys from our system to replace them and i doubt you skip a beat in terms of production

So let's see your list of 13-14 guys currently in the O's minor league system that are going to replace half the roster without skipping a beat in terms of production.

You've named 5 already (House, Knott, Dubois, Hoey, Doyne), so you've got 8 or 9 to go.

[Three Run Homer]

My definition of progress in the next 45 days is trades that bring us back real prospects. Millar, Roberts, Bedard, Walker and Bradford are probably the only players who would fit that category. Maybe Trachsel or Tejada if they can bounce back from injury and show that they have value to a contender.

My definition of progress is NOT dumping guys having bad seasons. What's the point? You're selling low. All you're doing is making moves to satisfy fans' anger. Why not see if they can bounce back and restore some of their value, before dumping them?

Tinkering around the edges of a roster, calling up House and Doyne and Hoey, shipping out guys like Bako, Parrish and Rob Bell--sure, why not.

[Sports Guy]

As a matter of fact, that's exactly what you said, back in post #70.



So let's see your list of 13-14 guys currently in the O's minor league system that are going to replace half the roster without skipping a beat in terms of production.

You've named 5 already (House, Knott, Dubois, Hoey, Doyne), so you've got 8 or 9 to go.

I am curious if you actually read the rest of the post or what?

I wa stalking about how half the team are basically replacement level players and that you could replace those guys with MiLers and not skip a beat.

At no point did i say this is what we should do or anything like that.

However, besides the 5 mentioned...Ceveranek, Liz, Fiorentino, Tiffee, Redman, Johnson, Whiteside, Majewski, Miller, McCrory, Hale....All of these guys could be brought up and we wouldn't miss much of a beat compared to the players they would replace.

Now, as you pointed out, this won't change the team but it can still be done.

House, Knott, Dubois, Liz, McCrory, Hoey and Doyne could be here for a while though.

[davearm]

I am curious if you actually read the rest of the post or what?

I wa stalking about how half the team are basically replacement level players and that you could replace those guys with MiLers and not skip a beat.

At no point did i say this is what we should do or anything like that.

However, besides the 5 mentioned...Ceveranek, Liz, Fiorentino, Tiffee, Redman, Johnson, Whiteside, Majewski, Miller, McCrory, Hale....All of these guys could be brought up and we wouldn't miss much of a beat compared to the players they would replace.

Now, as you pointed out, this won't change the team but it can still be done.

House, Knott, Dubois, Liz, McCrory, Hoey and Doyne could be here for a while though.
You have indeed made the statement that half of the O's roster should be replaced ASAP. You've said that many times lately. You've even implied that MacPhail should be judged mostly on the sheer quantity of dudes he dumps off of the bigleague roster in the next month.

If you truly believe that you could replace half of the O's roster with a collection of the non-prospects, AAAA hangers on, and organizational filler that comprise the O's upper minors and not see a significant dropoff, you're absolutely crazy. The O's are bad, but they ain't *that* bad.

I get that you're trying to make some sort of bold statement here about all the junk the O's have collected, but this whole "replace half the roster" campaign you're leading is totally preposterous and extremely ill-conceived.

Your "plan" wouldn't move the O's forward in the slightest. What it'd do is cement their status as a laughingstock and a latenight TV punchline.

[TonySoprano]

down goes Fraz-iah, down goes Fraz-iah [/Cosell];)

[Say O!]

You have indeed made the statement that half of the O's roster should be replaced ASAP. You've said that many times lately. You've even implied that MacPhail should be judged mostly on the sheer quantity of dudes he dumps off of the bigleague roster in the next month.

If you truly believe that you could replace half of the O's roster with a collection of the non-prospects, AAAA hangers on, and organizational filler that comprise the O's upper minors and not see a significant dropoff, you're absolutely crazy. The O's are bad, but they ain't *that* bad.

I get that you're trying to make some sort of bold statement here about all the junk the O's have collected, but this whole "replace half the roster" campaign you're leading is totally preposterous and extremely ill-conceived.

Your "plan" wouldn't move the O's forward in the slightest. What it'd do is cement their status as a laughingstock and a latenight TV punchline.

What davearm said. (Even though I disagree with him alot too)

[osfan83]

You have indeed made the statement that half of the O's roster should be replaced ASAP. You've said that many times lately. You've even implied that MacPhail should be judged mostly on the sheer quantity of dudes he dumps off of the bigleague roster in the next month.

If you truly believe that you could replace half of the O's roster with a collection of the non-prospects, AAAA hangers on, and organizational filler that comprise the O's upper minors and not see a significant dropoff, you're absolutely crazy. The O's are bad, but they ain't *that* bad.

I get that you're trying to make some sort of bold statement here about all the junk the O's have collected, but this whole "replace half the roster" campaign you're leading is totally preposterous and extremely ill-conceived.

Your "plan" wouldn't move the O's forward in the slightest. What it'd do is cement their status as a laughingstock and a latenight TV punchline.


I tell you what, if they did move 13 guys up, I'd start watching again. They might not be any better, but it would be more entertaining for awhile.

[El Gordo]

You have indeed made the statement that half of the O's roster should be replaced ASAP. You've said that many times lately. You've even implied that MacPhail should be judged mostly on the sheer quantity of dudes he dumps off of the bigleague roster in the next month.

If you truly believe that you could replace half of the O's roster with a collection of the non-prospects, AAAA hangers on, and organizational filler that comprise the O's upper minors and not see a significant dropoff, you're absolutely crazy. The O's are bad, but they ain't *that* bad.

I get that you're trying to make some sort of bold statement here about all the junk the O's have collected, but this whole "replace half the roster" campaign you're leading is totally preposterous and extremely ill-conceived.

Your "plan" wouldn't move the O's forward in the slightest. What it'd do is cement their status as a laughingstock and a latenight TV punchline.
You make me want to be a Cubs fan. No he is not crazy, but he is delusional and in denial. that's why I think of him as Tinkerbell, the faerie that welcomes us to Fantasyland when we go to Disney World in LA lA land where the mighty Kotchman and the magnificent Aybar and the redoubtable SantanA dwell. :002_sbiggrin:

[BaltimoreTerp]

I tell you what, if they did move 13 guys up, I'd start watching again. They might not be any better, but it would be more entertaining for awhile.

How do you know that?

[Mad Mark]

Look, if you guys want us to be bad, but entertaining, I'll start working on a knuckleball. Those starts should be hilarious! (Palmer will have a grand old time analyzing my mechanics. And Johnson's going to have to give up #59!) :rolleyes:

Second, regarding Miss Pay-Rod: it's a lot easier to slip a $30mm per year player into a $200mm payroll than a $100mm payroll, regardless of how much dead weight is found in either of those numbers.

[Sports Guy]

You have indeed made the statement that half of the O's roster should be replaced ASAP. You've said that many times lately. You've even implied that MacPhail should be judged mostly on the sheer quantity of dudes he dumps off of the bigleague roster in the next month.

If you truly believe that you could replace half of the O's roster with a collection of the non-prospects, AAAA hangers on, and organizational filler that comprise the O's upper minors and not see a significant dropoff, you're absolutely crazy. The O's are bad, but they ain't *that* bad.
I get that you're trying to make some sort of bold statement here about all the junk the O's have collected, but this whole "replace half the roster" campaign you're leading is totally preposterous and extremely ill-conceived.

Your "plan" wouldn't move the O's forward in the slightest. What it'd do is cement their status as a laughingstock and a latenight TV punchline.
Those 13 players are.

And btw, stop putting words into my mouth.

All i said is you could do that and not miss a beat and i have little doubt that that is true.

However, i would do a combination of trades, released and call ups and have said that many times.

[Sports Guy]

BTw, the collective VORP of the players i mentioned.(to use Dave's favorite stat) is about -10...Yea, i think we could get MiLers to do that.

[Boof]

We do have a lot of dead weight to unload. Millar should stay. He was in the middle of Bostons lineup when they won the WS, so yeah he is a starter on a good team. I would keep Gomez. I would like Patterson as the fourth outfielder. Mora has solid Defense and his bat is warming but at his age he won't be productive when and if we are a contender. I would keep Hernandez until Weiters is ready (assuming we get him.) I would deal the bullpen except Ray. Yep, I said Ray. I would deal Cabrera for a power bat and look for a average and power hitter during the offseason. I would deal Huff, Payton, and Gibbons. I would extend Bedard now. He is a legitimate Ace which the team hasn't had since Moose. If it can't be done then get a kings ransom for him.

[zrex]

Tinkering around the edges of a roster, calling up House and Doyne and Hoey, shipping out guys like Bako, Parrish and Rob Bell--sure, why not.

Rob Bell was lights out at AAA, much like Doyne and Hoey, and Parrish was good early on, yet they have a bad stretch and they're gone? Wow, I'd hate to see you as a GM, as soon as a slump hits, all the players are cut. Doyne and Hoey will get called up before the season is over, but they aren't proven Major Leaguers, minor league success doesn't always translate in MLB success, especially early on. I'm fairly certain, though it is the O's so who knows, that they have some sort of timeline or plan with these guys.

[zrex]

Of course he wouldn't. However, people think most of the fans in the stands are better ballplayers then him, when he is looking like a guy who is playing much better then expected.

And if you don't want him flashing you the bird, then don't heckle him.

I don't care if he flashes ME the bird. I find it amusing that a major leaguer got so upset because someone called him out on a bad play. Grow a pair and deal with it, heckling is part of the game. We pay hard earned money to root for our O's, and if someone does a good job, we let them know. The flip side of course is if they screw up, they are going to hear about it. I just think it's cruddy give the ol #1 to a whole section of fans with little kids. They, for some unknown reason, look up to ballplayers and that kind of behavior isn't really sending them the right message is it? A drunken idiot made fun of a major leaguer. Newsflash, he's a major leaguer! Does he really need to even respond to him? I think he has him beat.

Play hard and act classy and the fans will love you, flip the bird and muff plays and the fans will hate you. It's pretty simple.

[Hallas]

I'm not sure I understand? What does his track record tell us about how his body will hold up when he hits his mid/late 30s?

I'm not saying he wouldn't still be more productive than the midlevel guy. But say the average player's production diminishes by 20% after 35. Can we expect the average superstar to have their production diminish by less compared the guys who are only good players? With no evidence pointing me one way or the other, I would think that they would suffer the same type of declines everyone else does.

Because ARod's OPS is around 1.100 right now, and a 20% decline from that is .880 while playing 3B (or SS, which I'm convinced he can still play acceptably).

Gary Matthews' OPS is .860 on a good year. a 20% decline from that is .688. Gary Matthews becomes Jay Payton after his age decline, while ARod goes from being Babe Ruth to being Eric Chavez in his prime. In other words, still a very good player, and still providing an acceptable level of value for his contract. Matthews on the other hand, is fairly worthless after such a decline.

Not to mention ARod provides additional marketing value due to the milestones he's sure to break over the course of his new contract.

There's a fairly concise way to explain this in economics terms, but I've forgotten most of my terminology there. Anyone want to help me out here?

[El Gordo]

Because ARod's OPS is around 1.100 right now, and a 20% decline from that is .880 while playing 3B (or SS, which I'm convinced he can still play acceptably).

Gary Matthews' OPS is .860 on a good year. a 20% decline from that is .688. Gary Matthews becomes Jay Payton after his age decline, while ARod goes from being Babe Ruth to being Eric Chavez in his prime. In other words, still a very good player, and still providing an acceptable level of value for his contract. Matthews on the other hand, is fairly worthless after such a decline.

Not to mention ARod provides additional marketing value due to the milestones he's sure to break over the course of his new contract.

There's a fairly concise way to explain this in economics terms, but I've forgotten most of my terminology there. Anyone want to help me out here?
I think the accepted term is; "show me the money!" :D