Gary Sheffield is an idiot!

[ChaosLex]

I'm no fan of the Yankees, but Joe Torre has always seemed like a decent gentleman to me.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2935737

[rooter]

This isn't a shock - Sheffield has one of the biggest victim complexes of any 'celebrity' out there. The reality is he strikes me as being the actual racist, in most cases.

[Gurgi]

With his own son being mix-race for him to act this way is strange. And Sheffield isnt that dark a black man anyway. He must have some milk in the coffee back there some place.

[ChaosLex]

The reality is he strikes me as being the actual racist, in most cases.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Pot Meet Kettle.

[MemorialStadKid]

I'm no fan of the Yankees, but Joe Torre has always seemed like a decent gentleman to me.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2935737

There is a great line in the movie JFK uttered by Kevin Costner... I paraphrase:

"I always wondered that why a female witness in court must have bad eyesight if she is a prostitute?"

In the sense that just because WE or society may not like what someone does or their personality, it doesn't make them a liar or wrong in their assessment of a situation.

Do I like Sheff? I can't say because I have never met the man in person. He is one hell of a baseball player, pure and simple.

But why is it whenever anyone brings up race, people automatically side on the person who is accused of being racist? What if Sheff is correct?

Has anyone thought of that?

Torre is a media darling, but does that mean he DOESN'T favor white players over black ones?

There are a lot of men out there who are "gentlemen" and it doesn't mean that they aren't bigots. You can be the nicest guy in the world, but still have racist attitudes towards black people. Come on guys, lets be a little bit more down to earth here.

MSK

[rolliefingers]

With his own son being mix-race for him to act this way is strange. And Sheffield isnt that dark a black man anyway. He must have some milk in the coffee back there some place.

What the hell is this supposed to mean??

[drarray]

But why is it whenever anyone brings up race, people automatically side on the person who is accused of being racist? What if Sheff is correct?

Has anyone thought of that?

Torre is a media darling, but does that mean he DOESN'T favor white players over black ones?



Um, the opposite is true more often than not. This is societal PC problem. Why not ask Mariono Rivera is Torre is a racist or Bernie Williams? Shef is nuts and wants attention even if it means dragging Torre and the Yanks through the mudd. He has some serious problems.

[drarray]

What the hell is this supposed to mean??


He is saying tha Shef is most likely (and I am not saying this) of mixed race. He then says that Jeter is not black, yet they have similar complections. It is strange.

[Elbren]

Um, the opposite is true more often than not. This is societal PC problem. Why not ask Mariono Rivera is Torre is a racist or Bernie Williams? Shef is nuts and wants attention even if it means dragging Torre and the Yanks through the mudd. He has some serious problems.

I have to agree with this. We're talking about a team over the years with guys the likes of Rivera, B. Williams, Jorge Posada, Melky Cabrera, Hideki Matsui, Ruben Sierra, Alfonso Soriano, Orlando Hernandez, Doc Gooden and their golden boy / team captain, Derek Jeter.

I like him as a player, but he was some serious issues with white people. The whole "The world is out to get me" attitude is wearing thin. Why people keep putting a mic in front of him is beyond me.

[MemorialStadKid]

I have to agree with this. We're talking about a team over the years with guys the likes of Rivera, B. Williams, Jorge Posada, Melky Cabrera, Hideki Matsui, Ruben Sierra, Alfonso Soriano, Orlando Hernandez, Doc Gooden and their golden boy / team captain, Derek Jeter.

I like him as a player, but he was some serious issues with white people. The whole "The world is out to get me" attitude is wearing thin. Why people keep putting a mic in front of him is beyond me.

The problem with discussing racial issues is that most folks never are honest about their feelings and beliefs.

For example, lets say you work at a job that has a pretty decent racial and ethnic mix. I used to work in a place that was about 40% black, 20% Asian, and 10% latino, and 30% white. Most of the white guys were nice, but most told me flat out that they didn't have any black friends in their personal life and had close friends who hated black people. They even admitted to having some prejudices themselves.

Now, these guys worked everyday with a mix of races and it didn't mean that racism didn't exist, just that they had a job to do and they did it. The same applies to baseball too.

Just because the Yankees have a racial mix of players doesn't mean that there aren't racists in the management, administration or in other sectors of the organization. Torre could be a very bigoted person in his personal life, and that doesn't take away from his accomplishments.

Ty Cobb was one of the most racist people to have ever lived, does it take away from his accomplishments?

This seems like a situation where people hate Sheff, and therefore his observation must be faulty because people don't like him.

My point is that he may be right about Torre. Why is that so hard to accept?

MSK

[drarray]

For example, lets say you work at a job that has a pretty decent racial and ethnic mix. I used to work in a place that was about 40% black, 20% Asian, and 10% latino, and 30% white. Most of the white guys were nice, but most told me flat out that they didn't have any black friends in their personal life and had close friends who hated black people. They even admitted to having some prejudices themselves.

Now, these guys worked everyday with a mix of races and it didn't mean that racism didn't exist, just that they had a job to do and they did it. The same applies to baseball too.

Do the same "test" with Blacks, asains, and latinos in your work place and then get back to us.

[MemorialStadKid]

Do the same "test" with Blacks, asains, and latinos in your work place and then get back to us.

I have.

The same generally applies. I wasn't saying whites were the only ones, it was just an example.

This was just to illustrate that people can have a multi-racial environment and still have racist views.

Please be more intelligent than to try to flame a race war online.

MSK

[drarray]

Please be more intelligent than to try to flame a race war online.

MSK


I'm not. I just inteligently try to add some propective to your comments. I think I have been rather sucessful.

[ledzepp8]

Um, the opposite is true more often than not. This is societal PC problem. Why not ask Mariono Rivera is Torre is a racist or Bernie Williams? Shef is nuts and wants attention even if it means dragging Torre and the Yanks through the mudd. He has some serious problems.

But what attention does he want? It's not like it's sour grapes...his team is one of the best in baseball and in first place.

I don't like Sheffield either and think it's pretty crappy how no one ever mentions the fact that he admitted to steroid use in the Balco case, but I don't see what kind of motive he has to make this stuff up. Also that's not to say that I necessarily believe him either.

[geschinger]

But what attention does he want? It's not like it's sour grapes...his team is one of the best in baseball and in first place.


I think he misses NY. Even though the Tigers are winning I don't think it is anything more than him being a guy who is hurt and resentful that the Yankees discarded him and is lashing out.

[Elbren]

I think he misses NY. Even though the Tigers are winning I don't think it is anything more than him being a guy who is hurt and resentful that the Yankees discarded him and is lashing out.
I agree ... no matter how much money he's getting paid or how much attention you pay him it's never enough. You have to sit there and tell him how great he is, how he should be a HOFer and about how great it is that he's accomplished so much because he's a minority. If not, you get what you normally see from Shef. This wounded mentality where he thinks the world is out to get him. God forbid he ever actually admit that things like .. oh, I don't know. He took steroids, NY never won anything while he was there and he's had zero MVP's. He's a very good player, but he's not great ... but he just doesn't understand why people don't acknowledge him as one of the greatest players in history. Somehow he's resentful over over this.

I'm sure the fact he's having an MVP-type season now, but Magglio Ordonez is having a better season and getting more attention isn't helping anything.

As for Torre: As much as I dislike him, I just don't see it. There have been too many minorities to come through that team for no one else to notice or say something about it.

[ChaosLex]

I agree ... no matter how much money he's getting paid or how much attention you pay him it's never enough. You have to sit there and tell him how great he is, how he should be a HOFer and about how great it is that he's accomplished so much because he's a minority. If not, you get what you normally see from Shef. This wounded mentality where he thinks the world is out to get him. God forbid he ever actually admit that things like .. oh, I don't know. He took steroids, NY never won anything while he was there and he's had zero MVP's. He's a very good player, but he's not great ... but he just doesn't understand why people don't acknowledge him as one of the greatest players in history. Somehow he's resentful over over this.

I'm sure the fact he's having an MVP-type season now, but Magglio Ordonez is having a better season and getting more attention isn't helping anything.

As for Torre: As much as I dislike him, I just don't see it. There have been too many minorities to come through that team for no one else to notice or say something about it.

Agreed 110%.

Sheffield will always be the red-headed stepchild. At least, in his own mind.

[TyCobb]

Ty Cobb was one of the most racist people to have ever lived, does it take away from his accomplishments?



I think it has a little. Ty Cobb was viewed as the greatest player ever back in the day. I don't hear Ty Cobb being in talks as one of the greatest ever now and I think it is because he was a known racist.

Personally I find it ironic everyone brings up that he was a racist before his greatness as a ball player. When back in Cobb's day America was racist and Baseball itself won't allow Blacks to play.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Here's the thing.

If a black player accuses a manager, teammate, coach, owner, whoever of being racist it has to be accepted with a certain degree of insight based on who says it. Gary Sheffield accusing Joe Torre of being racist has a much different effect on me than if Bernie Williams or Mo Rivera or any other non-white Yankee had said it. The simple reason? Gary Sheffield, whether he is black, white, red, green, etc is a big mouth who often times intentionally causes controversy many times just for the sake of hearing himself talk. This is my opinion, of course, which I am entitled to.

Here is a good example. Say John Rocker was signed by the Texas Rangers. He subsequently accuses Ron Washington of favoring black players or other minority players over white players. Now, compare that to if someone like Michael Young or Gerald Laird said it. You can't possibly tell me that you'd receive both of those statements with the same reaction.

It's a sensitive subject, I know. And maybe Sheffield is right. But based on his past attitudes and statements, you can't blame people for being a little wary of anything he says, whether it's related to race or steroids or his favorite type of cookie.

[Elbren]

I also find these comments a bit ironic considering they're coming from someone who not too long ago said there so many latino's in MLB because they were "easily controlled". (or something to that effect)

[Moose Milligan]

Interesting...Kenny Lofton's come out and supported Sheffields comments, yet not giving much detail as to why he actually feels that way.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-sbynotes155294608jul15,0,7236688.story?coll=ny-baseball-headlines

Sour grapes? Who knows. I know Sheffields a bit of a malcontent but I never figured Lofton to be one.

[drarray]

Interesting...Kenny Lofton's come out and supported Sheffields comments, yet not giving much detail as to why he actually feels that way.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-sbynotes155294608jul15,0,7236688.story?coll=ny-baseball-headlines

Sour grapes? Who knows. I know Sheffields a bit of a malcontent but I never figured Lofton to be one.

Lofton has also been a malcontent but not as vocal of one as Sheff.

[rolliefingers]

Lofton has also been a malcontent but not as vocal of one as Sheff.

How so? Because he's black?

[Pedro Cerrano]

How so? Because he's black?

No. Because he has complained in the past about playing time and his role, etc.

[Migrant Redbird]

What color you are has a difference in how you perceive the world around you. An action which Torre didn't regard as discriminatory might well be regarded as such by Lofton and Sheffield. Whether it would be regarded that way by a neutral observer (presuming that you could find one) is something I couldn't say.

I realized that for myself once when discussing the Rodney King incident with a friend who was black. I made an observation which I regarded as obviously true, but my friend saw it differently. Just because he was well educated (an electrical engineer) from a privileged family (he told me once it was assumed that he and his many sisters would all get college degrees), I assumed that he'd view this issue "sensibly".

The O.J. Simpson case is another example. I find it difficult to understand how anyone would believe that O.J. was innocent, but I'd wager that there are still many in the black community who are convinced he was being framed by the LA police.

[rolliefingers]

No. Because he has complained in the past about playing time and his role, etc.

When? I've never heard of Lofton doing that.

And even if he has, so has Kevin Millar and thousands of other players. It seems like black players often get vilified for doing the same things as white players do.

[Leitch]

I almost know I shouldn't be jumping into this, but I'm not really sure what Sheffield has said in this article/interview that makes him an idiot

[geschinger]

I almost know I shouldn't be jumping into this, but I'm not really sure what Sheffield has said in this article/interview that makes him an idiot

Idiot may be too strong for this one incident. Like I said before, he is a player who was hurt that the Yankees discarded him. He's bitter and is lashing out. Now his comments a month ago - those were idiotic.

[rolliefingers]

I almost know I shouldn't be jumping into this, but I'm not really sure what Sheffield has said in this article/interview that makes him an idiot

I know better, too. But I'm drawn to these kinds of threads like black people to collard greens.

OMG DID I JUST SAY THAT OUT LOUD

[rolliefingers]

Idiot may be too strong for this one incident. Like I said before, he is a player who was hurt that the Yankees discarded him. He's bitter and is lashing out. Now his comments a month ago - those were idiotic.

Possibly. Or maybe he's completely right, and nobody's ever taken Torre to task for his actions before. We don't know. My question is, why does everyone assume that Sheffield is wrong?

[Pedro Cerrano]

Possibly. Or maybe he's completely right, and nobody's ever taken Torre to task for his actions before. We don't know. My question is, why does everyone assume that Sheffield is wrong?

If John Rocker accused a black manager of being racist would you assume he was wrong?

[rolliefingers]

If John Rocker accused a black manager of being racist would you assume he was wrong?

EDIT: You think Rocker has as much credibility as Sheffield?

[Leitch]

Idiot may be too strong for this one incident. Like I said before, he is a player who was hurt that the Yankees discarded him. He's bitter and is lashing out. Now his comments a month ago - those were idiotic.

Do we actually know he's not telling the truth or are we just assuming that because we don't like Sheffield?

[rolliefingers]

Do we actually know he's not telling the truth or are we just assuming that because we don't like Sheffield?

Um,

NO WE CLEARLY HAVE ALL THE FACTS AT HAND

[ledzepp8]

I almost know I shouldn't be jumping into this, but I'm not really sure what Sheffield has said in this article/interview that makes him an idiot

Exactly. I don't like Sheffield but even if Torre isn't racist and doesn't favor white players over black players, Sheffield and Lofton may still see it that way. People may not agree with them but it doesn't necessarily make them wrong, and it certainly doesn't make them idiots.

[Pedro Cerrano]

EDIT: You think Rocker has as much credibility as Sheffield?

In terms of comments concerning racial issues, they both have zero credibility in my eyes. The things Rocker said were absolutely horrendous, but excuse me for thinking twice about accepting what Sheffield said after the things he said about Hispanic players a while back.

[geschinger]

Possibly. Or maybe he's completely right, and nobody's ever taken Torre to task for his actions before. We don't know. My question is, why does everyone assume that Sheffield is wrong?

He does have a track record of saying incredibly stupid things and that has to be factored in. The response is going to be a lot different to something coming from him than say if it had been Bernie Williams who made the assertion.

I think Olney probably has it about right in his blog entry (http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster) about the story.



But Torre's way of handling slumps, sometimes, is to call out the best players -- the players who he believes possess the most confidence to deal with criticism; it's a way of drawing all the players together. If he picks on only the youngest and most fragile players, like a Clay Bellinger or an Andy Phillips or a Colter Bean, then he would have no credibility. He's criticized Clemens in meetings and Jeter and O'Neill and Williams.

Maybe Torre is guilty of misreading how Sheffield would take this. Or maybe Torre is guilty of not liking Sheffield, in particular; other players -- white, black, Latin -- have privately felt that he didn't like them, in particular. But in four years of covering Torre, I never once had a sense that he had less or more regard for any player based on race.

[rolliefingers]

In terms of comments concerning racial issues, they both have zero credibility in my eyes. The things Rocker said were absolutely horrendous, but excuse me for thinking twice about accepting what Sheffield said after the things he said about Hispanic players a while back.

Sheffield's comments re: Latinos had more truth to them than what Rocker said.

[rolliefingers]

He does have a track record of saying incredibly stupid things and that has to be factored in. The response is going to be a lot different to something coming from him than say if it had been Bernie Williams who made the assertion.

I think Olney probably has it about right in his blog entry (http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster) about the story.

See, I think his take makes a lot more sense than either Sheffield's take or some of the comments here. Sheffield strikes me as pretty over-sensitive about a lot of things, but I do not think he's an "idiot". The whole thing seems like a misunderstanding of Torre's motives.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Sheffield's comments re: Latinos had more truth to them than what Rocker said.

How do you know? And by saying that I'm not saying that Rocker's statements had any truth whatsoever but there is absolutely no way to tell that Sheffield saying that Hispanics are "easily told what to do" or whatever had ANY truth to it at all.

The point is, this isn't the first time Sheffield has yapped off about something racial. Not to mention the double standard if a white person had said the same thing about a black manager. I doubt you'd be saying "how do we know what he said isn't true?"

I really don't want to debate this anymore. You prefer to give Sheffield the benefit of the doubt, I do not.

[Pedro Cerrano]

See, I think his take makes a lot more sense than either Sheffield's take or some of the comments here. Sheffield strikes me as pretty over-sensitive about a lot of things, but I do not think he's an "idiot". The whole thing seems like a misunderstanding of Torre's motives.

Well that's just an argument over semantics.

[rolliefingers]

Yeah, I am cutting bait on this discussion. :)

[Elbren]

I love Sheffield as a player but he's just a guy that runs off at the mouth too much. Nothing is ever his fault. He makes comments like, "if I took what Barry Bonds took, why don't I look like him? ... I had a problem with him at that time, but I moved on and forgave.", but wonders why he and Barrry don't talk as much. He's directly linked to steroids and makes comments like, "not all steroids are steroids", says during the same tv interview he'd take a test "anytime/anywhere", but when asked to take one right now, he says, "you'd have to talk to the union", but he doesn't understand why the subject keeps coming up. As for his comments about Jeter, I'm absolutely astonished that MLB hasn't said anything this. If a "country boy" like Roger Clemens said Derek Jeter "doesn't count ... he's not all black", there would be a national uproar. Somehow, it's ok for Sheff to question Jeters' "blackness"??? :confused: :rolleyes: Makes you wonder what he thinks of his own kid.

As for Lofton's comments, I don't really put much credit into them. All he really said was that he agreed with Sheffield ... didn't actually back it up with a story or particular incident that he remembered. If you're not going bother backing up something you say, then why bother saying it?? Now, if he comes back and says, "Well, I remember seeing this ...", or, "Torre once said to me ...", that's a whole different story. But just saying, "Yeah, I think he's right", ranks your opinion right up there with someone who posts on the Sun message boards.

[RayFink1e]

This makes no sense.

New York is the media capitol of the world. If Torre was even a hint racist, I think it would of took a little less then 12 years for someone to firgure it out.

[Chollie Eckman]

I bet the problem is that Torre doesn't pay homage to the double standard the Sheffields and Loftons of the world are so used too. Does Sheffield or Lofton offer any specifics? or was the perceived "disrespect" enough? Sheffield argues more ball and strikes in Major League baseball, but he never gets run. He's an A$$.

[Leitch]

This makes no sense.

New York is the media capitol of the world. If Torre was even a hint racist, I think it would of took a little less then 12 years for someone to firgure it out.

Why?

Not all racists are cartoon characters.

[RayFink1e]

Why?

Not all racists are cartoon characters.


Dont have to be cartoon characters. If he showed any favortism towards white players, there would of been something out before this. To many reporters looking for a story.

[Leitch]

Dont have to be cartoon characters. If he showed any favortism towards white players, there would of been something out before this. To many reporters looking for a story.

If he showed any favoritism towards white players, he'd have been out of a job.

That said, being racist and acting on it are different things.

[Gurgi]

That said, being racist and acting on it are different things.
__________________
Yep they are. And since we can't see what's in each others hearts and heads all you can hope for is people to not act on it.