Sheffield...Most underrated player of his generation? [Archive]

Sports Guy

07-18-2007, 10:59 PM

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/sheffga01.php

Wow, i was just looking at his stats and boy are they impressive.

128 career WARP3....Will likely have more than 500 homers and close to 3000 hits.

926 career OPS, including a 399 OBP...Pretty impressive career.

geschinger

07-18-2007, 11:05 PM

Sports Guy

07-18-2007, 11:31 PM

It is very impressive especially considering how much time he missed during his peak years.

Good point..Several years playing under 100 games and even more years where he would miss 20-30 games.

Moose Milligan

07-18-2007, 11:40 PM

He also played in fairly obscure markets like Milwaukee, San Diego and Florida...Had he spent his prime in a place like NY or Boston, we might be singing a different tune.

He's had some great seasons and he's a great hitter.

Sports Guy

07-18-2007, 11:47 PM

Even at his age, he still may have the quickest bat in the league.

Moose Milligan

07-19-2007, 08:58 AM

Who else would be in the most underrated player of this generation category?

I'd think Biggio would be up there.

NewMarketSean

07-19-2007, 09:02 AM

Bagwell gets my vote.

davearm

07-19-2007, 09:59 AM

Who else would be in the most underrated player of this generation category?

I'd think Biggio would be up there.
You can make a pretty good argument for Barry Bonds.

Say what you will about the guy and his issues, but statistically he'll be perhaps the single greatest player of all time. Yet he's spent his career in the shadows of Griffey Jr, Sosa/McGwire, and now ARod and Pujols.

davearm

07-19-2007, 10:00 AM

RayFink1e

07-19-2007, 02:37 PM

Does everyone forget Sheffield was in the same stuff Bonds was?

If you say he is the most underrated of the generation then you have to conceede Bonds is the best player ever. You cant kill Bonds for his involvement then let Sheffield get a free pass

geschinger

07-19-2007, 03:01 PM

You can make a pretty good argument for Barry Bonds.

Say what you will about the guy and his issues, but statistically he'll be perhaps the single greatest player of all time. Yet he's spent his career in the shadows of Griffey Jr, Sosa/McGwire, and now ARod and Pujols.

I don't know. He was the story in the quest to bpass McGwire and if anything the ridiculously good start to Pujols career has been upstaged by Bonds.

mweb

07-19-2007, 03:10 PM

I don't know. He was the story in the quest to bpass McGwire and if anything the ridiculously good start to Pujols career has been upstaged by Bonds.

I still think he's been underrated, especially during his pre-steroids years. He was the best player, yet, Griffey was considered better and McGwire and Sosa got all the attention in the late 90's. Bonds was left off the all century team, while Griffey was on it.

And even post HGH, he's been underrated by most who don't pay much attention to walks or OBP. Even ESPN called his season lackluster when the all star teams were announced, and basically made it seem like he didn't deserve to be on the team.

I'm not sure about most underrated, but he's certainly been underrated. I think Biggio, Bagwell, Kent, and Sheffield are great choices for most underrated.

geschinger

07-19-2007, 03:36 PM

I still think he's been underrated, especially during his pre-steroids years. He was the best player, yet, Griffey was considered better and McGwire and Sosa got all the attention in the late 90's. Bonds was left off the all century team, while Griffey was on it.

I agree w/that but I think the pendulum has swung back. I don't know how someone whom I consistently hear being talked about as one of the best players ever and the best player of a generation could be considered underrated.

mweb

07-19-2007, 03:51 PM

I agree w/that but I think the pendulum has swung back. I don't know how someone whom I consistently hear being talked about as one of the best players ever and the best player of a generation could be considered underrated.

Well when many still think Griffey was better in the 90's and when his current season is called lackluster, he's still underrated. Plus, one of the greatest players ever might still be underrating him depending on what one means by that. He's in the top 2 players ever imo.

Sports Guy

07-19-2007, 10:57 PM

I actually like the Bonds answer.

I don't think a lot of people realize how great he was, steroids or not.

RayFink1e

07-19-2007, 11:32 PM

If Bonds never had the steroids acussations or been a ***** to the media, we would prolly be calling him the best player ever right now

Flosman

07-20-2007, 01:07 AM

If Bonds never had the steroids acussations or been a ***** to the media, we would prolly be calling him the best player ever right now

I am not sure. Ruth's numbers are staggering also.

jeffstonefan

07-22-2007, 12:40 PM

Who else would be in the most underrated player of this generation category?

I'd think Biggio would be up there.

Rafael Palmerio immediately comes to mind. The steroid issue makes it easy to forget how impressive his career numbers were. Even before the controversy he was an offensive force for years, but made the all-star team only FOUR times! 3 Gold Gloves at 1B too.

All time he ranks:

Extra Base Hits (6th)
Home runs (10th)
RBI (12th)
TB (10th)
2B (15th)
Hits (23rd)

mweb

07-29-2007, 11:04 PM

66-70-83-??

07-30-2007, 09:51 AM

Rafael Palmerio immediately comes to mind. The steroid issue makes it easy to forget how impressive his career numbers were. Even before the controversy he was an offensive force for years, but made the all-star team only FOUR times! 3 Gold Gloves at 1B too.

All time he ranks:

Extra Base Hits (6th)
Home runs (10th)
RBI (12th)
TB (10th)
2B (15th)
Hits (23rd)

One of Palmeiro's gold gloves was "earned" when he played only 28 games at 1B.

As far as the offensive numbers go- there are so many players playing in this era that can't be properly judged right now, imo.

This era's offensive numbers are such that we need time to put them into historical context. We just went through the greatest historical offensive era to date.

Putting steroids aside for a minute, historically and looking at Palmeiro in isolation: he is a sure-fire HOFer.

But, when comparing him to his peers- his numbers aren't nearly as noteworthy. He was never voted in as a starter to the All Star game. He was always overshadowed by other hitters, even several others at his own position. He also never led the league in HR's.

Comparing today's hitters to the hitters of the 30's-70's is as fair as holding today's pitchers to the standards of the Cy Young, Walter Johnson, etc...

66-70-83-??

07-30-2007, 09:54 AM

Here's another guy who I think is very underrated: Kevin Brown. 106 WARP3, career ERA+ of 127. Which is the same as Bob Gibson, Seaver, and Smoltz. Better than Gossage, Schilling, Mussina, Feller, Marichal, Ruth, Drysdale, Cone, Fingers, Glavine, Peavy, Blylevin, Perry, Eckersley, and Carlton.

This is a guy who has a case to be a HOF'er, yet very few think of him that way, and he probably won't even get enough votes in his first year of eligibility to remain in the voting process.

Kevin Brown ?

No way. Staying healthy is a skill he was horrible at.

He was very good for a while. But, I wouldn't say he is underrated or hall worthy.

Any statistical creation that puts him as an equal to Seaver or GIbson, and better than Feller, Marichal, Carlton- is highly suspect.

Leitch

07-30-2007, 12:58 PM

This era's offensive numbers are such that we need time to put them into historical context. We just went through the greatest historical offensive era to date.

AL, 1993-2007 scored 5.10125 runs/game
AL, 1930-1939 score 5.248 runs/game

mweb

07-30-2007, 01:18 PM

Kevin Brown ?

No way. Staying healthy is a skill he was horrible at.

He was very good for a while. But, I wouldn't say he is underrated or hall worthy.

Any statistical creation that puts him as an equal to Seaver or GIbson, and better than Feller, Marichal, Carlton- is highly suspect.

He had 13 seasons with at least 170 innings, 9 of them with at least 210 innings, 7 of those with at least 230 innings, and 3 with 250 innings. He has more innings pitched than Schilling, Whitey Ford, Hershiser, and many HOF'ers, he's in the top 100 all time in that category.

ERA+ is not a flawed stat, especially when considering a whole career, which should pretty much even out luck for those who are concerned with that.

Brown also has a higher WARP3 than one Jim Palmer.

66-70-83-??

07-30-2007, 05:25 PM

AL, 1993-2007 scored 5.10125 runs/game
AL, 1930-1939 score 5.248 runs/game

But what about Home Run output and SLG pct's ?

They have risen steadily since the early 1900's.

There were 6 HR's hit per 500 PA in 1930.
In 2004, there were 14 HR's hit per 500 PA.

Frobby

07-30-2007, 05:43 PM

He had 13 seasons with at least 170 innings, 9 of them with at least 210 innings, 7 of those with at least 230 innings, and 3 with 250 innings. He has more innings pitched than Schilling, Whitey Ford, Hershiser, and many HOF'ers, he's in the top 100 all time in that category.

ERA+ is not a flawed stat, especially when considering a whole career, which should pretty much even out luck for those who are concerned with that.

Brown also has a higher WARP3 than one Jim Palmer.

Kevin Brown is underrated, I'd agree. As good as Jim Palmer? Sorry, but no. In this case, WARP3 is warped.

Leitch

07-30-2007, 06:32 PM

But what about Home Run output and SLG pct's ?

They have risen steadily since the early 1900's.

There were 6 HR's hit per 500 PA in 1930.
In 2004, there were 14 HR's hit per 500 PA.

Home runs are up from 1930(smaller parks, lighter bats, more power conscious approach, juiced balls, juiced players, etc), but offensive levels have been higher and may be higher in the future. The American League hit .289/.363/.421 in 1936. That looks like a Nick Markakis line.

jeffstonefan

07-30-2007, 07:30 PM

[QUOTE=66-70-83-??;995279]
He was never voted in as a starter to the All Star game. He was always overshadowed by other hitters, even several others at his own position. He also never led the league in HR's.
QUOTE]

Based on this information, I'd say that you agree with me that he was underrated. He was as consistently good, or better than a majority of the players in any era, steroids or not.

I certainly wouldn't consider him over-rated. He was never considered great but he ended up with 3,000 and 500 and hardly anyone noticed. Who is Rafael Palmeiro--Joe Fan probably wouldn't have a clue.

mweb

07-30-2007, 11:06 PM

Kevin Brown is underrated, I'd agree. As good as Jim Palmer? Sorry, but no. In this case, WARP3 is warped.

I didn't say he was better than Palmer.

What, no response 66-70-83?

mweb

08-02-2007, 03:32 AM

While 66-70-83 thinks of a retort, I'll throw out another guy that I think is underrated by many: Pedro Martinez.

Best career ERA+, and by a decent margin, also has the best single season ERA+ besides Tim Keefe's 1880 season. He's an all time great pitcher, easily better than guys such as Ryan and Koufax imo, but besides the stat guys and some hard core fans, I don't think he's considered to be in that upper echelon.

BTW, this era has really been amazing as far as top tier HOF's.

Baltimoron

08-02-2007, 04:04 AM

Kevin Brown is underrated, I'd agree. As good as Jim Palmer? Sorry, but no. In this case, WARP3 is warped.

Good thing you don't need WARP to make such an argument.

Its so much closer than people would intially suspect. Palmer had a *much* better defense over the course of his career and in 700 more career innings, had a 125 ERA+ compared to KB's 127 ERA+.

KB's 1996-2000 is one of the best 5 year pitching peaks of all time.

How quick we forget 1996.

233 IP, 8 Hrs, 33 walks, 159 Ks, 1.89 ERA, 214 ERA+

Baltimoron

08-02-2007, 04:31 AM

In 1998 KB pitched 257 innings at a 9 K/9, 1.72 BB/9 and .28HR/Game.

His HR rate aren't as flukish as might first appear, KB pounded the sinker.

66-70-83-??

08-02-2007, 06:19 AM

What, no response 66-70-83?

While 66-70-83 thinks of a retort

:confused:

I already posted on the subject.

I appreciate your interest in my opinions, though. ;)

FYI- whether someone is "underrated" is a matter of opinion. You can't "prove" that he is. There was nothing else posted that I thought needed a response.

I don't think Brown was "underrated" but I can see where others would think he is.

Pedro ? No way. He is not "underrated", imo. Everyone knows how good he was in his heyday.

RVAbird

08-02-2007, 11:15 AM

Pedro ? No way. He is not "underrated", imo. Everyone knows how good he was in his heyday.

I'm not sure everyone does.

So you would agree that Pedro was better than Koufax and Ryan and is one of the ten best pitchers of all time? If not, you're underrating him.

I would venture to guess that at least 90 percent of people asked, without referencing stats, would say he's not. Further, I would guess that around half of them, after referencing stats, would still say he's not. Pedro had an unbelievable ERA+ of 215 from 1997-2003 and a has a career ERA+ of 160 (best in history).

What he did, and when he did it, is truly astonishing. I don't think most people even think he was the best pitcher of his generation. Just my opinion though, based on some people I've asked.

mweb

08-02-2007, 09:24 PM

:confused:

I already posted on the subject.

I appreciate your interest in my opinions, though. ;)

FYI- whether someone is "underrated" is a matter of opinion. You can't "prove" that he is. There was nothing else posted that I thought needed a response.

I don't think Brown was "underrated" but I can see where others would think he is.

Pedro ? No way. He is not "underrated", imo. Everyone knows how good he was in his heyday.

Well your opinion of him was certainly underrating him. Saying he's horrible at staying healthy and was only very good for awhile is rather off imo. He was often great and wasn't hurt much at all until towards the end of his career, and even then, it's not like he missed an entire year or anything.

I don't think your average fan would consider Pedro as one of the top 10 or even 20 pitchers ever.