ESPN/Bonds roundtable

[Why Not?]

Anybody watching this on ESPN at 6:30? Pretty interesting stuff.

My immediate thought is that players still have their heads in the sand, like there's no steroids problem in baseball.

[Moose Milligan]

Just tuned in a little while ago.

Decent discussion. Really liked the zinger where one of the people at the table said to the SF audience "It's okay if he's a cheat...as long as he's your cheat."

How come Ley doesn't bring up the fact that SHEFFIELD AND BONDS SAID THEY UNKNOWINGLY USED THE CREAM AND THE CLEAR IN A GRAND JURY TESTIMONY?!?!?! What does Dusty Baker have to say about that??

Ooooh, here comes the race card...

[Why Not?]

Dusty Baker took some abuse from Burwell. Burwell basically said it should have been obvious to any manager that some of the players were hitting the drugs pretty heavily. Baker just sort of shrugged, like "what could I do?"

[RayFink1e]

Bryan Burwell was horrible. He cant speak for ****. Im tired of him speaking for everyone. He kept saying "well people think this" and "people think that". Most reporters have an agenda Ive come to discover. For Burwell to say he knows more about Barry then Dusty Baker who has known him his whole life is laughable. I hate reporters. Most are athletes who could never make it in sports

[Why Not?]

Bryan Burwell was horrible. He cant speak for ****. Im tired of him speaking for everyone. He kept saying "well people think this" and "people think that". Most reporters have an agenda Ive come to discover. For Burwell to say he knows more about Barry then Dusty Baker who has known him his whole life is laughable. I hate reporters. Most are athletes who could never make it in sports


I think this comment was in response to the notion that Baker has doubts about Bonds' steroid use. If Baker honestly doesn't think Bonds used steroids heavily, he is a buffoon.

Some reporters/columnists have an agenda. Most just want to figure out the facts, report the story, collect their paycheck and go home to their family. When the story is unpleasant, fans start to turn on the messenger instead of the real villian. I think that is the case with Bonds.

[Mark Carver]

Instead of creating another Bonds thread... Bonds takes on Bob Costas. Look all he has to do is speak up and tell the truth. He should tell his his boyhood friend and personal trainer who unhappily toils away for 12 cents an hour in a prison kitchen, unsure of when he'll be freed. Greg Anderson (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/07/18/bonds.trainer.ap/index.html?eref=si_mlb), who...


is being held in contempt of court for refusing to testify before a grand jury investigating Bonds' alleged perjury. He's been there since November in this, his fourth and longest jail term connected to the federal government's seemingly endless investigation of steroid use by Bonds and other elite athletes.

From ESPN Bonds takes a shot at Costas (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=2949529&name=chasingruth)



SAN FRANCISCO -- On a positive note, Barry Bonds refrained from commenting on Tim Russert's weight, Ted Koppel's hair or Keith Olbermann's height.

Bob Costas, though?

"You mean that little midget man who absolutely knows (expletive) about baseball?" Bonds told four reporters when asked before Wednesday's game whether he had seen Costas' HBO show in which the broadcaster interviewed chemist Patrick Arnold. "He never played a game? I saw it."

Or maybe he didn't actually see the show. Bonds said after Wednesday's game that he had not seen the show, though he had "heard about it." Walking out of the clubhouse, Bonds said, "Bob Costas can kiss my ass. He's not an athlete and he doesn't know (expletive) about baseball."

[beaner]

It's still ridiculous to me that this whole thing seems to center around Bonds. Of course he was on steroids, but again, who wasn't? It was so rampant in that era, that Brian McRae said you were an outcast if you WEREN'T doing it. McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Caminiti, Brady Anderson...etc. The list goes on and on of guys who had "freakish" seasons in that era. I think we can all assume that those guys were all enhanced in some way. I've said it before, Barry is just a better player than any of those guys, and is about to break the greatest record in sports, that's why he's the whipping boy.

[66-70-83-??]

It's still ridiculous to me that this whole thing seems to center around Bonds. Of course he was on steroids, but again, who wasn't? It was so rampant in that era, that Brian McRae said you were an outcast if you WEREN'T doing it. McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Caminiti, Brady Anderson...etc. The list goes on and on of guys who had "freakish" seasons in that era. I think we can all assume that those guys were all enhanced in some way. I've said it before, Barry is just a better player than any of those guys, and is about to break the greatest record in sports, that's why he's the whipping boy.

He is not the whipping boy for those reasons. He is the "whipping boy" mostly because he is a miserable, arrogant, cheating A-hole. If he was Tony Gwynn or Kirby Puckett (in his heyday), or Torii Hunter- we all would be cheering for him.

Breaking Aarons record will put Bonds in the record books. But, it will be an empty accomplishment to millions and won't improve Bonds image at all.

The only thing that could transform Bonds image into something positive is if he did the unthinkable: came clean about his own steroid use and about what he knows about the use/abuse of roids in MLB.

He could go from #1 villain to the guy who saved baseball and restored its image from a major crisis.

Having a major star "come clean" and tell it like it is will go along way in dealing with the issue, imo.

[beaner]

He is not the whipping boy for those reasons. He is the "whipping boy" mostly because he is a miserable, arrogant, cheating A-hole. If he was Tony Gwynn or Kirby Puckett (in his heyday), or Torii Hunter- we all would be cheering for him.

Breaking Aarons record will put Bonds in the record books. But, it will be an empty accomplishment to millions and won't improve Bonds image at all.

The only thing that could transform Bonds image into something positive is if he did the unthinkable: came clean about his own steroid use and about what he knows about the use/abuse of roids in MLB.

He could go from #1 villain to the guy who saved baseball and restored its image from a major crisis.

All valid points, but he is still the best of all the cheaters. My only argument is that everybody was doing it, not just Bonds. Does it make it excusable? Of course not, but it was part of the game whether we like it or not. Bonds just outplayed all of the other guys, that's it. Would we be cheering Mark McGwire today if he were breaking the record and it was obvious he was a steroid user? So much has been made of the steroid era that we probably wouldn't. Bonds doesn't care about improving his image, he's proved that numerous times with his actions towards the media and fans.

[Sports Guy]

All of this steroids stuff is to do one thing....Catch Bonds.

I don't think MLB care about much else.

It is a joke.

[beaner]

All of this steroids stuff is to do one thing....Catch Bonds.

I don't think MLB care about much else.

It is a joke.

Exactly my point, it's all about Bonds. Now is it because of Aaron's record, or is it because he's such an ass. If it were McGwire, say, a more likeable guy, would there be this much attention to it. i say no. The bottom line, Baseball looked away in the 90's when guys like Brady Anderson were hitting 50 Home Runs, and Sosa and McGwire captured the nation. They didn't start paying attention until the Canseco book came out, talk about irony. And Bonds is the only one left standing..

[Why Not?]

Exactly my point, it's all about Bonds. Now is it because of Aaron's record, or is it because he's such an ass. If it were McGwire, say, a more likeable guy, would there be this much attention to it. i say no. The bottom line, Baseball looked away in the 90's when guys like Brady Anderson were hitting 50 Home Runs, and Sosa and McGwire captured the nation. They didn't start paying attention until the Canseco book came out, talk about irony. And Bonds is the only one left standing..

There is more solid evidence on Bonds than any other player (other than those who flunked tests). Say what you want about Sosa's build and power, but there isn't any dirt on him or Brady Anderson. There wasn't anything on McGwire until his Senate testimony. Few of the other names that have been made public are really noteworthy players.

The holy trinity of steroids is Bonds, Giambi and Sheffield. Bonds is the best of them and they one who's been most in the news, so he gets the most attention.

[beaner]

There is more solid evidence on Bonds than any other player (other than those who flunked tests). Say what you want about Sosa's build and power, but there isn't any dirt on him or Brady Anderson. There wasn't anything on McGwire until his Senate testimony. Few of the other names that have been made public are really noteworthy players.

The holy trinity of steroids is Bonds, Giambi and Sheffield. Bonds is the best of them and they one who's been most in the news, so he gets the most attention.

Absolutely, he used steroids, as did Giambi, Sheffield, Sosa, McGwire, Caminitti, Canseco, Juan Gonzalez, Raffy, Brady,and many many others.A few of them have admitted it. If they looked as deeply into any of those guys, there would be plenty of evidence on them too I'd imagine. The difference is that for the most part, those are decent, likeable guys who aren't threatening Henry Aaron's record. Baseball let this happen for years and years, Bonds isn't the only one that the investigation should be focusing on, that's all. He's the biggest name, therefore the biggest "catch" so to speak.

[geschinger]

All valid points, but he is still the best of all the cheaters. My only argument is that everybody was doing it, not just Bonds. Does it make it excusable? Of course not, but it was part of the game whether we like it or not. Bonds just outplayed all of the other guys, that's it. Would we be cheering Mark McGwire today if he were breaking the record and it was obvious he was a steroid user? So much has been made of the steroid era that we probably wouldn't. Bonds doesn't care about improving his image, he's proved that numerous times with his actions towards the media and fans.

I'd say McGwire is paying a heavy price. Without the steroid issue he would very likely be joining Cal and Tony in Cooperstown. Bonds gets the brunt of the criticism because he's still in the spotlight.

[mweb]

It is absurd how much crap Barry gets for using THG, etc when he's just one of hundreds of players that have. I do understand the reasons why that is, but it's still very excessive imo.

[mweb]

There is more solid evidence on Bonds than any other player (other than those who flunked tests). Say what you want about Sosa's build and power, but there isn't any dirt on him or Brady Anderson. There wasn't anything on McGwire until his Senate testimony. Few of the other names that have been made public are really noteworthy players.

The holy trinity of steroids is Bonds, Giambi and Sheffield. Bonds is the best of them and they one who's been most in the news, so he gets the most attention.

Even before Game of Shadows came out and the BALCO thing happened, Bonds was the center of attention concerning steroids. So I don't think the evidence argument holds that much water.

[geschinger]

It is absurd how much crap Barry gets for using THG, etc when he's just one of hundreds of players that have. I do understand the reasons why that is, but it's still very excessive imo.

It does seem that he gets piled on but a lot of it is his own making. When he treats the media like crap and then gives them the ammunition to beat him over the head with it's only natural they will revel in beating him up. He could of made life a lot easier for himself if he treated others with even a modicum of respect.

[beaner]

It does seem that he gets piled on but a lot of it is his own making. When he treats the media like crap and then gives them the ammunition to beat him over the head with it's only natural they will revel in beating him up. He could of made life a lot easier for himself if he treated others with even a modicum of respect.

True, but that doesn't make it any more fair that this has become basically a witch hunt. There are hundreds and hundreds of players past and present that they could be talking about.

[mweb]

It does seem that he gets piled on but a lot of it is his own making. When he treats the media like crap and then gives them the ammunition to beat him over the head with it's only natural they will revel in beating him up. He could of made life a lot easier for himself if he treated others with even a modicum of respect.

It may be natural that the media does that, but it's still not fair or right.

[geschinger]

It may be natural that the media does that, but it's still not fair or right.

They should go after any and all players that they can make a case against. But I don't see any reason for them to stand down when it comes to Barry.

[beaner]

It may be natural that the media does that, but it's still not fair or right.

Exactly, like I said earlier in the thread, Baseball ignored the problem until the Canseco book came out, and now that there is some backlash, they suddenly care. It's a witch hunt for Bonds, and it's absurd.

[geschinger]

Exactly, like I said earlier in the thread, Baseball ignored the problem until the Canseco book came out, and now that there is some backlash, they suddenly care. It's a witch hunt for Bonds, and it's absurd.

Are you referring to Major League Baseball or the media? MLB needs to clear the slate for everybody that there is evidence or rumors against. If they are serious they will give the players amnesty - anything that comes out before the new policy took effect should be inactionable. Then they should encourage players to talk. I have a real problem w/MLB trying to do anything to Bonds or any other player but I don't really care about the media trying to put things together.

[mweb]

They should go after any and all players that they can make a case against. But I don't see any reason for them to stand down when it comes to Barry.

Well I don't see why they have to make as big of a deal as they have.

[geschinger]

Well I don't see why they have to make as big of a deal as they have.

The media doesn't need to make as big a deal of a lot of things. But if they are going to obsess over a story this one is more legitimate than the daily Lohan and Paris Hilton stories.

[beaner]

The media doesn't need to make as big a deal of a lot of things. But if they are going to obsess over a story this one is more legitimate than the daily Lohan and Paris Hilton stories.

I'm talking about MLB, not the media.

[Mark Carver]

I'm talking about MLB, not the media.

MLB has not targeted Bonds specifically. So, far the only active player to be brought before the Mitchell Investigation, is Jason Giambi.

[Why Not?]

Absolutely, he used steroids, as did Giambi, Sheffield, Sosa, McGwire, Caminitti, Canseco, Juan Gonzalez, Raffy, Brady,and many many others.A few of them have admitted it. If they looked as deeply into any of those guys, there would be plenty of evidence on them too I'd imagine. The difference is that for the most part, those are decent, likeable guys who aren't threatening Henry Aaron's record. Baseball let this happen for years and years, Bonds isn't the only one that the investigation should be focusing on, that's all. He's the biggest name, therefore the biggest "catch" so to speak.

Who is they? The BALCO guys were caught up in a federal investigation and the subsequent grand jury leaks are the reason we know so much. Bad luck for Bonds, but it isn't like anyone was targeting him. Hell, there was no intention to prosecute Bonds until he lied to the grand jury.

Giambi has gotten some credit for sorta admitting what he did. Sheffield wasn't as directly connected to Conte and BALCO. Most of the other guys you listed are either retired or we don't have any direct evidence of their steroid use. The farther we get from their last games, the less relevant they become.

MLB's Mitchell investigation is trying to dredge up info on anybody and everybody but they havn't turned up any new info (that we know of).

[mweb]

The media doesn't need to make as big a deal of a lot of things. But if they are going to obsess over a story this one is more legitimate than the daily Lohan and Paris Hilton stories.

Ok, but we're talking sports media here. And they should still focus on the whole story much more instead of mostly focusing on Bonds. Some do, and I give them credit.

[Sports Guy]

MLB has not targeted Bonds specifically. So, far the only active player to be brought before the Mitchell Investigation, is Jason Giambi.
Yea and they want to hear Giambi say Bonds took roids and i have proof.

If they could catch Bonds and have proof tomorrow, i think a lot of the steroid stuff would go away after that.

[Why Not?]

Yea and they want to hear Giambi say Bonds took roids and i have proof.

If they could catch Bonds and have proof tomorrow, i think a lot of the steroid stuff would go away after that.

When Giambi agreed to talk to Mitchell, it was made clear that he would only discuss HIS steroid use. That was the heart of the negotiations that led up to Giambi talking at all.