755

[beaner]

Kudos to the Padres fans, who for the most part cheered Bonds Home Run, for the second straight weekend, the San Diego fans have come through with pure class. Great moment. Some people were booing, probably some of the same ones who cheered wildly for Ken Caminiti, but that's ok. For the most part, the reaction was positive.

[YardBirds13]

I'm clapping. Bonds is the greatest baseball player I've ever seen. Maybe he did steroids, maybe not. But how do we know who did? Maybe Pujols, maybe A-Rod, maybe Clemens, maybe Jeter, maybe Cal, who knows. We don't know.

But here we are: Bonds has come out, swung the bat 755 times in which the ball went over the fence. That's all I care about. When he hits 756, he will be the All-Time Home Run King. No asterisk. No nothing. Bonds is the home run king.

[beaner]

I'm clapping. Bonds is the greatest baseball player I've ever seen. Maybe he did steroids, maybe not. But how do we know who did? Maybe Pujols, maybe A-Rod, maybe Clemens, maybe Jeter, maybe Cal, who knows. We don't know.

But here we are: Bonds has come out, swung the bat 755 times in which the ball went over the fence. That's all I care about. When he hits 756, he will be the All-Time Home Run King. No asterisk. No nothing. Bonds is the home run king.

Well said, Mr Wahoo. Of course he did steroids, and a few of the ones you mentioned may have too, there are certainly players we hangouters have all cheered for that have done steroids too. The fact remains that 755 Home Runs is an unbelievable accomplishment, that's the bottom line.

[utvolzac]

As a pure baseball fan, its sickening to watch Barry Bonds hold one of baseball's most prized records. It's a shame soon we'll have not one, but two of the game's greatest scumbags holding honored records, when Bonds joins Pete Rose as a MLB record holder.

[ixcuincle]

Lately , despite the alleged allegations of Bonds as being a cheater , the crowds have been giving a positive reception as he begins to approach 756. When he hit his 2nd of 2 home runs in that game in Chicago , he received a positive standing ovation , as he did when he hit 754 in San Francisco and 755 in San Diego. I am still hoping boos are rained upon him as he hits 756 , but given the recent reception towards him , it is unlikely the video of 756 that goes down in history will involve irate fans booing as he rounds the bases.

[beaner]

As a pure baseball fan, its sickening to watch Barry Bonds hold one of baseball's most prized records. It's a shame soon we'll have not one, but two of the game's greatest scumbags holding honored records, when Bonds joins Pete Rose as a MLB record holder.

Couldn't disagree more. Bonds is an amazing player, whether he's a scumbag or not shouldn't matter. I don't need to be his friend, just watch him hit.

Pete Rose passed Ty Cobb, who is widely regarded as the biggest jerk to ever play the game. What Rose did as a manager has nothing to do with how many hits he had as a player.

[EddieO's21]

sorry guys...i can't cheer and I will NEVER EVER cheer...and guess what...if it were ever proven that Cal used...I would never cheer for him again either. What he did...and let's be honest, he did do it...cheated the game.

I would never want my kids to grow up and learn that a record like the all time home-run record was accomplished by cheating...CHEATING!!!! Does he have mad skill...of course he does...no one denies it. However, he is a despicable human being who deserves nothing less then to go down as a chump.

I loved Bud Selig standing up and not even clapping...he showed up yeh...but showed no emotion. Barry doesn't deserve it. Bonds and others like McGwire, Canseco, Giambi, Palmeiro, and others have cheated a game that I and millions of other love so much. Cheer for him...no way...I will sit and remember Hank Aaron as the true home run king

[EddieO's21]

Couldn't disagree more. Bonds is an amazing player, whether he's a scumbag or not shouldn't matter. I don't need to be his friend, just watch him hit.

Pete Rose passed Ty Cobb, who is widely regarded as the biggest jerk to ever play the game. What Rose did as a manager has nothing to do with how many hits he had as a player.

but he enhanced his body in order to achieve a record that this enhancement has direct correlation to doing. Not only is he a scumbag, which many others are...he made it EASIER to hit the HRs!!!! Rose didn't bet hits...he hit hits. This record has a million of these ********************

[beaner]

sorry guys...i can't cheer and I will NEVER EVER cheer...and guess what...if it were ever proven that Cal used...I would never cheer for him again either. What he did...and let's be honest, he did do it...cheated the game.

I would never want my kids to grow up and learn that a record like the all time home-run record was accomplished by cheating...CHEATING!!!! Does he have mad skill...of course he does...no one denies it. However, he is a despicable human being who deserves nothing less then to go down as a chump.

I loved Bud Selig standing up and not even clapping...he showed up yeh...but showed no emotion. Barry doesn't deserve it. Bonds and others like McGwire, Canseco, Giambi and others have cheated a game that I and millions of other love so much. Cheer for him...no way...I will sit and remember Hank Aaron as the true home run king

Technically, we know as much about Bonds as we do about Brady, Tejada, Gibbons, and any other Oriole name that has ever been brought up with suspicion. Do I think Bonds used steroids, of course I do, but i also believe that all the names I mentioned above did as well, along with hundreds of other players including many of the pitchers who gave up Home Runs to all of these guys. Does that make it right, no, but it was an even playing field for the most part, and Bonds just happens to be the best player out of any of them.

[Icterus galbula]

I'm clapping. Bonds is the greatest baseball player I've ever seen. Maybe he did steroids, maybe not.


It seems like so many people when arguing about Bonds say "we don't know for sure that he used steroids, lets give him the benefit of the doubt." The fact is, there is no doubt, he testified to a grand jury about the "cream and the clear," a n admission of guilt.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/12/03/MNGGFA0UDU65.DTL

He used steroids. Period.

[66-70-83-??]

As a pure baseball fan, its sickening to watch Barry Bonds hold one of baseball's most prized records. It's a shame soon we'll have not one, but two of the game's greatest scumbags holding honored records, when Bonds joins Pete Rose as a MLB record holder.

I am with you. It is a shame. Bonds is a miserable, pompous, A-hole.

I still can't put Bonds in the same class as Aaron. To me this record will be an empty accomplishment. Hopefully, the entire crowd just sits on their hands when he hits it.

Game of Shadows details Bonds relationship with BALCO and his steroid use (and many other athletes). There is no doubt about it- he cheated big-time.

[beaner]

I am with you. It is a shame. Bonds is a miserable, pompous, A-hole.

I still can't put Bonds in the same class as Aaron. To me this record will be an empty accomplishment. Hopefully, the entire crowd just sits on their hands when he hits it.

Game of Shadows details Bonds relationship with BALCO and his steroid use (and many other athletes). There is no doubt about it- he cheated big-time.

Too late, most of the crowd cheered for him, as they should have...Yea, he's a pompous a-hole, but who cares. We have to watch him play Baseball, nothing else.

I always go back to the Ray Lewis incident, he lied to police about a DOUBLE MURDER, and people around here were so quick to forgive and cheer him. What he did was so far beyond worse than steroids it isn't even worth talking about, yet we can't even acknowledge Bonds accomplishment because he's a "scumbag, jerk pompous...etc". Not that he isn't, but why is it such a big deal.

[EddieO's21]

Technically, we know as much about Bonds as we do about Brady, Tejada, Gibbons, and any other Oriole name that has ever been brought up with suspicion. Do I think Bonds used steroids, of course I do, but i also believe that all the names I mentioned above did as well, along with hundreds of other players including many of the pitchers who gave up Home Runs to all of these guys. Does that make it right, no, but it was an even playing field for the most part, and Bonds just happens to be the best player out of any of them.

even playing field...

http://www.newsday.com/media/photo/2006-03/22327462.jpg ----pirates
http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/sports/brew/img/mar04/bonds327.jpg
giants


so what your saying is...the hundreds of players who used...made it an even playing field for the hundreds and hundreds of others who didn't. If ALL of the pitchers used...it might, but they didn't, probably not even a 1/4. Bonds would not be at 755 if it wasn't for steroids. PERIOD. THERE WOULD BE NO RECORD.

He would have 625 or so right now...not anywhere near the mark. You can't observe and cheer for something that steroids had direct correlation to making come true...you just can't

[beaner]

even playing field...

http://www.newsday.com/media/photo/2006-03/22327462.jpg ----pirates
http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/sports/brew/img/mar04/bonds327.jpg
giants


so what your saying is...the hundreds of players who used...made it an even playing field for the hundreds and hundreds of others who didn't. If ALL of the pitchers used...it might, but they didn't, probably not even a 1/4. Bonds would not be at 755 if it wasn't for steroids. PERIOD. THERE WOULD BE NO RECORD.

He would have 625 or so right now...not anywhere near the mark. You can't observe and cheer for something that steroids had direct correlation to making come true...you just can't

I don't know if that's true, if he wasn't such a threat, than he may not have been walked so many times...It's about 850 more at bats that he's have if it weren't for all the walks.

Your other points are well taken, and I'm certainly not saying that steroids didn't play a part in the record, but the guy has hit all of these Home Runs, some credit must be given here.

[utvolzac]

Couldn't disagree more. Bonds is an amazing player, whether he's a scumbag or not shouldn't matter. I don't need to be his friend, just watch him hit.

Pete Rose passed Ty Cobb, who is widely regarded as the biggest jerk to ever play the game. What Rose did as a manager has nothing to do with how many hits he had as a player.

I could care less about his personality. When I say the game's greatest scumbags, I was referring to blatant CHEATING. If Bonds kicks puppies on his way to the stadium, hits 756 without steroids, fine. But even without testing positive, there is no doubt he was juiced. You just do not add that much muscle mass at that age. Not to mention the whole head size growth thing.

I compared him to Pete Rose, because he's equally a scumbag for gambling on baseball. Steroids and Gambling are the two worst things a baseball player can do, on the field.

Both of them are complete trash, IMO. Its sad to think about the truly great players Bonds has passed, who actually earned their numbers w/o cheating.

[markakis4pres]

It seems like so many people when arguing about Bonds say "we don't know for sure that he used steroids, lets give him the benefit of the doubt." The fact is, there is no doubt, he testified to a grand jury about the "cream and the clear," a n admission of guilt.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/12/03/MNGGFA0UDU65.DTL

He used steroids. Period.

Finally someone with some common sense. I agree 100% with you and I dont understand how other people dont. He ADMITTED to taking steroids. What more do you want for Proof that he took Roids. Bonds is a cheater and I would not cheer for him. I hope A-rod breaks his record.

They also had that thing on Bonds on ESPN about him taking the clear steroid and didnt know what it was. Sounds a little suspicious to me.

Just admit you cheated Bonds

[beaner]

Finally someone with some common sense. I agree 100% with you and I dont understand how other people dont. He ADMITTED to taking steroids. What more do you want for Proof that he took Roids. Bonds is a cheater and I would not cheer for him. I hope A-rod breaks his record.

They also had that thing on Bonds on ESPN about him taking the clear steroid and didnt know what it was. Sounds a little suspicious to me.

Just admit you cheated Bonds

So if he admits, would you embrace the record. No one is saying he didn't use..I'm supporting Bonds in the chase, but I know he used steroids, as do most people, believe me. A Rod will break the record one day, so we might as well enjoy the history for now.

[EddieO's21]

Finally someone with some common sense. I agree 100% with you and I dont understand how other people dont. He ADMITTED to taking steroids. What more do you want for Proof that he took Roids. Bonds is a cheater and I would not cheer for him. I hope A-rod breaks his record.

They also had that thing on Bonds on ESPN about him taking the clear steroid and didnt know what it was. Sounds a little suspicious to me.

Just admit you cheated Bonds

PLEASE FOR EVERYONE WHO HAS ANY DOUBT...LOOK AT MY LINKS ABOVE, I DID MY OWN RESEARCH!!!!!

[beaner]

PLEASE FOR EVERYONE WHO HAS ANY DOUBT...LOOK AT MY LINKS ABOVE, I DID MY OWN RESEARCH!!!!!

I don't think that's even an issue. We all know he used, it's just a matter of accepting it and still embracing the accomplishment, that's all. At least that's how I see it.

[EddieO's21]

So if he admits, would you embrace the record. No one is saying he didn't use..I'm supporting Bonds in the chase, but I know he used steroids, as do most people, believe me. A Rod will break the record one day, so we might as well enjoy the history for now.

insert loathe here

[ixcuincle]

I don't think anyone has any doubt he cheated. He basically admitted it in court , and there's been a book written about his alleged steroid use which he has not discredited or called slander. I was listening to the radio and they were interviewing Jon Miller , who does Giants radio and Sunday Night Baseball on the TV. When asked why Barry did not discredit the book , Miller said because of legal reasons and an ongoing investigation. Perhaps later after he retires Bonds will speak more candidly on the steroids issue , but even if he does confess and apologize , his continual silence on the issue , fraudulent denials , and basically him being an a-hole have marred his image (to me) forever. Nothing he can do anymore can change my perception of him : he used steroids to attain a now-corrupted record.

[beaner]

insert loathe here

Life is too short for all of this angst...Enjoy the moment, you won't be able to escape it, so you might as well.

[beaner]

I don't think anyone has any doubt he cheated. He basically admitted it in court , and there's been a book written about his alleged steroid use which he has not discredited or called slander. I was listening to the radio and they were interviewing Jon Miller , who does Giants radio and Sunday Night Baseball on the TV. When asked why Barry did not discredit the book , Miller said because of legal reasons and an ongoing investigation. Perhaps later after he retires Bonds will speak more candidly on the steroids issue , but even if he does confess and apologize , his continual silence on the issue , fraudulent denials , and basically him being an a-hole have marred his image (to me) forever. Nothing he can do anymore can change my perception of him : he used steroids to attain a corrupted record.

Remember when Canseco's book came out and McGwire, Palmiero, Tejada, Bret Boone, Gonzalez,...etc were all talking about how they were going to sue Canseco and blah blah blah....Well, 5 years later there have been no lawsuits...clearly these men can't sue Canseco because he was speaking the truth...Same thing with the book, nothing Bonds can say because it's all true.

[markakis4pres]

So if he admits, would you embrace the record. No one is saying he didn't use..I'm supporting Bonds in the chase, but I know he used steroids, as do most people, believe me. A Rod will break the record one day, so we might as well enjoy the history for now.

I wouldnt Embrace the record, I still feel that Aaron deserves the record. Sure maybe a a little congrats to him since he did break the record and its still hard to hit that many homers, but he doesnt deserve the record.

[beaner]

I wouldnt Embrace the record, I still feel that Aaron deserves the record. Sure maybe a a little congrats to him since he did break the record and its still hard to hit that many homers, but he doesnt deserve the record.

Fair enough...Steroids or not, it is really hard to hit that many homers. I guess that's really where I'm coming from, instead of all the hate, let's just enjoy the record, whether you like the player or not.

[EddieO's21]

Life is too short for all of this angst...Enjoy the moment, you won't be able to escape it, so you might as well.

I enjoyed Cal...Biggio...Maddox...Ichiro...and Henderson

I just can't...and I'm sorry for all the animosity, enjoy this

[markakis4pres]

I enjoyed Cal...Biggio...Maddox...Ichiro...and Henderson

I just can't...and I'm sorry for all the animosity, enjoy this

You could also add Griffey and Glavine(Once he gets 300 wins).

[beaner]

I enjoyed Cal...Biggio...Maddox...Ichiro...and Henderson

I just can't...and I'm sorry for all the animosity, enjoy this

I enjoy every Baseball acheivement, only because I realize that hitting a Baseball is the hardest thing to do in sports, bar none. What all of the guys you mentioned accomplsihed was awesome, as well as all the past players and A Rod today, and Frank Thomas a few months back. With the "steroid era" players getting older, we're going to see some of these records being easier to come by, but it's still really hard to be a good Baseball player,whether you enhace yourself or not.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Too late, most of the crowd cheered for him, as they should have...Yea, he's a pompous a-hole, but who cares. We have to watch him play Baseball, nothing else.

I always go back to the Ray Lewis incident, he lied to police about a DOUBLE MURDER, and people around here were so quick to forgive and cheer him. What he did was so far beyond worse than steroids it isn't even worth talking about, yet we can't even acknowledge Bonds accomplishment because he's a "scumbag, jerk pompous...etc". Not that he isn't, but why is it such a big deal.

Ray Lewis went to trial and was allowed to make a deal. I severely doubt he would have been allowed to do that if there was any evidence against him other then his lies to the police.

Bonds, however, has apparently told a grand jury he used some form of performance-enhancing drug ("unknowingly"), and has a mountain of circumstantial evidence against him, from his physical changes to a friend serving jail time for contempt of court instead of testifying about what Bonds may or may not have done.

I think he is an amazing player, and I will applaud his home run when he gets it. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that unless evidence appears to the contrary, I believe he used performance-enhancing substances to cheat. He has not earned any benefit of any doubt.

The achievement is impressive, but tainted.

[YardBirds13]

Some of you are missing my point (and I think beaner's as well). Bonds did steroids. OK. But how do we know who else did? You say it'll be great to celebrate Griffey, but what if he took them? What if A-Rod did? You can't just pick and choose the guys you cheer and the ones you hate. The suspicion is gonna be there for every player of this era.

Hate it or love it, Late 80's to Early 2000's is going to be known as the steroid era. Bonds played in that era, and was by far BY FAR the best player in that era. So much better than anyone else, that this guy leads the universe in walks. I mean, someone actually considered it would be a good idea to walk this guy WITH THE BASES LOADED!!!

He did what he did. So did thousands of other hitters and pitchers. How many home runs did steroids help Bonds hit? Who knows. Nobody will ever know. I say less than people want to believe. I mean, as bean mentioned, the guy lost like 900 at bats because people refuse to pitch to him. How many would he have hit if people weren't absolutely TERRIFIED to pitch to him? Let alone talking about him having perhaps the greatest batting eye of any player in the history of baseball.

My point is, if you want to pull the hood over your eyes, and just mumble to yourself, and pretend like this never happened, then go ahead. Keep pretending it's 1984 and Henry Aaron is first on the all-time home run list. Me, I'm gonna celebrate one of the absolute greatest players in the history of baseball. Sure, he is an a-hole, he is pompous, and he doesn't seem to care for a lot of people, but he is a husband, a father, and actually pretty funny if you listen to him talk.

So do what you will. I'm gonna tell my kids that Bonds played in an era when a ton of players took some PED's, and he was one of them. Then I'll tell them that he was the greatest baseball player I've ever seen, and that he is the All-Time leader in Home Runs. (That is, unless A-Rod has passed him:D :D )

[beaner]

Ray Lewis went to trial and was allowed to make a deal. I severely doubt he would have been allowed to do that if there was any evidence against him other then his lies to the police.

Bonds, however, has apparently told a grand jury he used some form of performance-enhancing drug ("unknowingly"), and has a mountain of circumstantial evidence against him, from his physical changes to a friend serving jail time for contempt of court instead of testifying about what Bonds may or may not have done.

I think he is an amazing player, and I will applaud his home run when he gets it. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that unless evidence appears to the contrary, I believe he used performance-enhancing substances to cheat. He has not earned any benefit of any doubt.

The achievement is impressive, but tainted.

I'm only questioning the fans hatred of Bonds in relation to the love for Ray Lewis. That's why I brought it up. Ray still gets a lot of crap around the league and always will.

And you're last statement is absolutely the truth, but i choose to enjoy it, while others do not. No right or wrong obviously, just a difference of opinion.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Life is too short for all of this angst...Enjoy the moment, you won't be able to escape it, so you might as well.

Yeah. And we're all going to die eventually anyway, so I'm not going to work tomorrow.

The reason an accomplishment like this IS an accomplishment is because it is supposed to be 1) essentially impossible to achieve unless you have an amazing ability to do something well and do it for a long time, and 2) achieved through fair and honest means.

If I started playing baseball tomorrow, and was hitting all kinds of home runs, but it was because pitchers decided they would rather have me as the record-holder and so were constantly giving me the easiest possible pitches, would it be as much of an accomplishment if I eventually passed Bonds?

He likely took something that was at least against the laws of the United States if not banned by baseball at the time, and was designed to give him that much more of an advantage over his peers. That is NOT fair and honest.

It's worse then when Brett Favre took a dive to give Michael Strahan the NFL single-season sack record.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I'm only questioning the fans hatred of Bonds in relation to the love for Ray Lewis. That's why I brought it up. Ray still gets a lot of crap around the league and always will.

Like I said, Lewis went to trial, and was found guilty of the crime he did commit.

Bonds has yet to do so, but has more evidence against him as well.

[YardBirds13]

I've learned that there is no arguing this point. I really can't even begin to imagine how people can't see Bonds as the champ, but whatever. This is the kind of argument that nobody ever changes their mind on.

[geschinger]

I'm only questioning the fans hatred of Bonds in relation to the love for Ray Lewis. That's why I brought it up. Ray still gets a lot of crap around the league and always will.

And you're last statement is absolutely the truth, but i choose to enjoy it, while others do not. No right or wrong obviously, just a difference of opinion.

The one difference I see between the two is that Lewis' situation was strictly off the field. It had no effect on the outcome on the field. But I agree - I also choose to enjoy it and have no problem whatsoever w/anyone who chooses to attack Bonds. He's certainly earned it - on both sides of the equation.

[beaner]

I've learned that there is no arguing this point. I really can't even begin to imagine how people can't see Bonds as the champ, but whatever. This is the kind of argument that nobody ever changes their mind on.

Agreed, it's kind of like the Yankee hatred...It's hard to see reality when your mind is tainted. People won't see Jeter as a great player because of the uniform he wears, and they won't appreciate Bonds either. I wonder if things will be different when A Rod does do this.

[YardBirds13]

Agreed, it's kind of like the Yankee hatred...It's hard to see reality when your mind is tainted. People won't see Jeter as a great player because of the uniform he wears, and they won't appreciate Bonds either. I wonder if things will be different when A Rod does do this.

I think as much as alot of people hate A-Rod, for many reasons, he will be celebrated because people will just be rooting against Bonds. (Which is ridiculous, because who knows what A-Rod was taking all thos years, but I digress)

Hopefully he is breaking the record in a uniform that isn't pinstripes. For two reasons:

a) it's not like the Yanks need any more coverage on ESPN, and imagine a Yankee going for the all-time record

b) who knows, I might not be able to celebrate the reality of it because my mind will be tainted by those damn pinstripes;)

[geschinger]

Agreed, it's kind of like the Yankee hatred...It's hard to see reality when your mind is tainted. People won't see Jeter as a great player because of the uniform he wears, and they won't appreciate Bonds either. I wonder if things will be different when A Rod does do this.

I think it's unfair to categorize someone's mind as being tainted if they take a hard line on the usage of illegal drugs. There is a huge difference between those who have a problem w/Bonds and your example of Jeter. Unless there is clear evidence implicating ARod as having been a user I don't think there will be anywhere near the acrimonious response that Bonds gets from many.

[YardBirds13]

I think it's unfair to categorize someone's mind as being tainted if they take a hard line on the usage of illegal drugs. There is a huge difference between those who have a problem w/Bonds and your example of Jeter. Unless there is clear evidence implicating ARod as having been a user I don't think there will be anywhere neer the acrimonious response that Bonds gets from many.

But I think that's the whole point. Bonds played during an era where this stuff was rampant! We are never gonna know who used and who didn't. Some have said it could have been as many as 80 percent of players used some sort of PED's. 80!! It happened during this era. Bonds was just a lot better with PED's than everyone else during this era.

Old People Era: Aaron was the best
Steroids Era: Bonds is the best

Thats how I look at it.

[beaner]

I think it's unfair to categorize someone's mind as being tainted if they take a hard line on the usage of illegal drugs. There is a huge difference between those who have a problem w/Bonds and your example of Jeter. Unless there is clear evidence implicating ARod as having been a user I don't think there will be anywhere neer the acrimonious response that Bonds gets from many.

I truly believe that much of the Bonds hatred comes form the combination of steroids/being an ass. Let's be honest, there are players that played or are playing in our city that are beloved that are clearly on or were on something, and they're not spoken of in a negative way.

If McGwire (pre congress), or Sosa, guys who were known as being "fun loving" were going after this even with the suspicion of steroid use, I don't think there would be as much backlash. Bonds has always been a jerk, and that tainted people long before his steroid years.

[geschinger]

But I think that's the whole point. Bonds played during an era where this stuff was rampant! We are never gonna know who used and who didn't. Some have said it could have been as many as 80 percent of players used some sort of PED's. 80!! It happened during this era. Bonds was just a lot better with PED's than everyone else during this era.

Old People Era: Aaron was the best
Steroids Era: Bonds is the best

Thats how I look at it.

There have also been some that said it was much lower. I'm uncomfortable painting everyone as a cheater w/o at least some evidence to back it up. It's completely unfair to those who never used. Whether that is 20% or 50% or whatever % of players that didn't use it is completely unfair to assume that the are guilty.

[YardBirds13]

I truly believe that much of the Bonds hatred comes form the combination of steroids/being an ass. Let's be honest, there are players that played or are playing in our city that are beloved that are clearly on or were on something, and they're not spoken of in a negative way.

If McGwire (pre congress), or Sosa, guys who were known as being "fun loving" were going after this even with the suspicion of steroid use, I don't think there would be as much backlash. Bonds has always been a jerk, and that tainted people long before his steroid years.

Bingo. If a report came out today that Brian Roberts used some PED's, how would his perception around here change? I can tell you with 100 percent certaintly that I would not think less of him at all. Same goes for Tejada, Gibbons, Mora, et al.

[YardBirds13]

There have also been some that said it was much lower. I'm uncomfortable painting everyone as a cheater w/o at least some evidence to back it up. It's completely unfair to those who never used. Whether that is 20% or 50% or whatever % of players that didn't use it is completely unfair to assume that the are guilty.

Exactly. We will never know. Which is why I (and many others) are considering that PED's, from the late 80's to early 2000's, were simply a part of the game. It wasn't good, and I'm glad that they are trying to clean it up, but it happened, and Bonds was the best of the guys who played during that era.

[beaner]

I think as much as alot of people hate A-Rod, for many reasons, he will be celebrated because people will just be rooting against Bonds. (Which is ridiculous, because who knows what A-Rod was taking all thos years, but I digress)

Hopefully he is breaking the record in a uniform that isn't pinstripes. For two reasons:

a) it's not like the Yanks need any more coverage on ESPN, and imagine a Yankee going for the all-time record

b) who knows, I might not be able to celebrate the reality of it because my mind will be tainted by those damn pinstripes;)

Not the ESPN thing, no, please stop...Find any tape of Baseball tonight before 1994, and the Yankees were rarely mentioned...They get coverage because they deserve it, bottom line. The Yankees are great, that's why they're on ESPN. If we were great, we'd be on ESPN a lot too, I promise. Like we always talk about during Basketball season, ESPN doesn't love Duke and Carolina, they're just always good, and the casual fan wants to see great teams, either to root for or against them. If people didn't care, the coverage would be less.

[YardBirds13]

Not the ESPN thing, no, please stop...Find any tape of Baseball tonight before 1994, and the Yankees were rarely mentioned...They get coverage because they deserve it, bottom line. The Yankees are great, that's why they're on ESPN. If we were great, we'd be on ESPN a lot too, I promise. Like we always talk about during Basketball season, ESPN doesn't love Duke and Carolina, they're just always good, and the casual fan wants to see great teams, either to root for or against them. If people didn't care, the coverage would be less.

No, no, no, Duke and Carolina DO get more coverage, I mean come on, where are all the UVa highlights???? :eek: :D ;)


I'm not saying the Yanks don't deserve the coverage, I know they do. I'm just saying I don't want ANOTHER reason for them to be talked about.

[geschinger]

I truly believe that much of the Bonds hatred comes form the combination of steroids/being an ass. Let's be honest, there are players that played or are playing in our city that are beloved that are clearly on or were on something, and they're not spoken of in a negative way.

If McGwire (pre congress), or Sosa, guys who were known as being "fun loving" were going after this even with the suspicion of steroid use, I don't think there would be as much backlash. Bonds has always been a jerk, and that tainted people long before his steroid years.

I agree... I have to separate the achievement from the player to appreciate his amazing abilities as I've seen first hand just what an ass he is.

But I disagree about there being a lot more backlash. Look at Rafael Palmeiro... The backlash from his usage basically ended his career. I agree that if McGwire (pre congress) or Sosa were going after the record with only the suspicion of steroid use that there wouldn't be as much backlash. But if it were more than suspicion (as it is w/Bonds) I believe the backlash would be intense for them as well. Just look at McGwire and the HOF. His congressional testimony cementing the belief in peoples minds hat he was a cheater kept him to under 25% of the vote whereas w/o that he surely would of been a shoe-in.

[beaner]

No, no, no, Duke and Carolina DO get more coverage, I mean come on, where are all the UVa highlights???? :eek: :D ;)


I'm not saying the Yanks don't deserve the coverage, I know they do. I'm just saying I don't want ANOTHER reason for them to be talked about.

I know, I'm just messing with you..The Anti ESPN thing is my biggest pet peeve on this board..Do you realize where we'd be as fans without ESPN. Most of us don't know life without it, try to imagine what sports would be like.

A Rod won't be a Yankee when he's breaking Bonds record, maybe he'll be an Oriole, and all of our fans that "hate" him now, will love him then.

[geschinger]

Bingo. If a report came out today that Brian Roberts used some PED's, how would his perception around here change? I can tell you with 100 percent certaintly that I would not think less of him at all. Same goes for Tejada, Gibbons, Mora, et al.

I'd say take a look at how the perception of Rafael Palmeiro changed on a dime once he was confirmed to be a user.

[YardBirds13]

I know, I'm just messing with you..The Anti ESPN thing is my biggest pet peeve on this board..Do you realize where we'd be as fans without ESPN. Most of us don't know life without it, try to imagine what sports would be like.

A Rod won't be a Yankee when he's breaking Bonds record, maybe he'll be an Oriole, and all of our fans that "hate" him now, will love him then.

Oh, trust me, as much as I complain about ESPN, I can't imagine not having it. Usually I only complain about it when they do non-sports stuff. I want them to be all sports, and stupid crap like Who's Now and all the stuff they do on SportsCenter that has nothing to do with sports drives me nuts.


And where do we hang up the "Sign A-Rod" banner at the Yard???!!!

[beaner]

I agree... I have to separate the achievement from the player to appreciate his amazing abilities as I've seen first hand just what an ass he is.

But I disagree about there being a lot more backlash. Look at Rafael Palmeiro... The backlash from his usage basically ended his career. I agree that if McGwire (pre congress) or Sosa were going after the record with only the suspicion of steroid use that there wouldn't be as much backlash. But if it were more than suspicion (as it is w/Bonds) I believe the backlash would be intense for them as well. Just look at McGwire and the HOF. His congressional testimony cementing the belief in peoples minds hat he was a cheater kept him to under 25% of the vote whereas w/o that he surely would of been a shoe-in.


Yes, but with Sosa it more than likely wouldn't be more than suspicion. He's has played in the league for 8 years since the Summer of '98 and never tested positive. Raffy Tested positive so that did change everything. But you're right about McGwire and Hall of Fame, although his silence in front of congress was basically an admission of guilt in most people's minds.

[YardBirds13]

I'd say take a look at how the perception of Rafael Palmeiro changed on a dime once he was confirmed to be a user.

And it was ridiculous for those people to do that to him. I was at the Yard when he came back and pinch hit in the 9th inning, and myself, my brother, and my dad gave him a standing ovation.

Raffy was always one of my favorite Orioles, and the fact that he did (still a question if he did, BTW), in an era when a ton of others were doing it, didn't change my perception about him at all.

[beaner]

And it was ridiculous for those people to do that to him. I was at the Yard when he came back and pinch hit in the 9th inning, and myself, my brother, and my dad gave him a standing ovation.

Raffy was always one of my favorite Orioles, and the fact that he did (still a question if he did, BTW), in an era when a ton of others were doing it, didn't change my perception about him at all.

Blinded by love...

yardbirdsluvsraffy ;)


Didn't change my opinion of him either for the record..

[YardBirds13]

Blinded by love...

yardbirdsluvsraffy ;)


Didn't change my opinion of him either for the record..

HAHAHAHA. That, my friend, is hilarious.

[geschinger]

Yes, but with Sosa it more than likely wouldn't be more than suspicion. He's has played in the league for 8 years since the Summer of '98 and never tested positive. Raffy Tested positive so that did change everything. But you're right about McGwire and Hall of Fame, although his silence in front of congress was basically an admission of guilt in most people's minds.

While I still think the Bonds would be getting a lot of backlash due to his personality I don't think it would be anywhere near as bad if he was just a suspected user and not a confirmed user. The confirmation of usage makes all the difference in the perception IMO.

[YardBirds13]

While I still think the Bonds would be getting a lot of backlash due to his personality I don't think it would be anywhere near as bad if he was just a suspected user and not a confirmed user. The confirmation of usage makes all the difference in the perception IMO.

Agreed about that. I still think alot of people hated him before the steroids thing, but it would be nothing like it is now if not for his drug-related past.

[beaner]

While I still think the Bonds would be getting a lot of backlash due to his personality I don't think it would be anywhere near as bad if he was just a suspected user and not a confirmed user. The confirmation of usage makes all the difference in the perception IMO.

You're probably right, but i do think people hated Barry before the his steroid years.

[geschinger]

And it was ridiculous for those people to do that to him. I was at the Yard when he came back and pinch hit in the 9th inning, and myself, my brother, and my dad gave him a standing ovation.

Raffy was always one of my favorite Orioles, and the fact that he did (still a question if he did, BTW), in an era when a ton of others were doing it, didn't change my perception about him at all.

I think you are more forgiving than the average fan. I still like Raffy and hope his usage doesn't keep him from the Hall of Fame but I don't have a problem w/those who feel otherwise as I do see it as a legitimate position (not a ridiculous one) to take.

[beaner]

I think you are more forgiving than the average fan. I still like Raffy and hope his usage doesn't keep him from the Hall of Fame but I don't have a problem w/those who feel otherwise as I do see it as a legitimate position (not a ridiculous one) to take.

He'll get less of the vote than Big Mac did, and that is a damn shame. People felt deceived by Raffy, you never want to think of your heroes as cheaters, and that's what bothered so many around here. And of course, the whole pointing fingers at congress thing...and the blaming the teammate thing didn't help either..

[geschinger]

He'll get less of the vote than Big Mac did, and that is a damn shame. People felt deceived by Raffy, you never want to think of your heroes as cheaters, and that's what bothered so many around here. And of course, the whole pointing fingers at congress thing...and the blaming the teammate thing didn't help either..

It's going to get real interesting 5 years from now (assuming this is Bonds last year). Once Bonds is eligible do the voters punish him for a year or two? There is no way they'll keep him out and once he as a confirmed user is in it'll be hard to justify keeping out McGwire or Palmeiro out based soley on the steroids issue.

[beaner]

It's going to get real interesting 5 years from now (assuming this is Bonds last year). Once Bonds is eligible do the voters punish him for a year or two? There is no way they'll keep him out and once he as a confirmed user is in it'll be hard to justify keeping out McGwire or Palmeiro out based soley on the steroids issue.

Good quesiton, but Bonds was most likely a sure fire Hall of Famer before he hit 73 Home Runs..Raffy probably needed the 500/3000 thing to get in, and the steroids will hurt. McGwire was a great Home Run hitter, but wasn't as complete a player as Bonds or Raffy was.

[YardBirds13]

He'll get less of the vote than Big Mac did, and that is a damn shame. People felt deceived by Raffy, you never want to think of your heroes as cheaters, and that's what bothered so many around here. And of course, the whole pointing fingers at congress thing...and the blaming the teammate thing didn't help either..

That whole fiasco made me ten times more upset than the positive test. It's one thing to do it, but to try and throw a teammate under the bus? That actually really pissed me off, much more than the positive test.

[MCL1021]

Ehhh....I don't really care....Bonds was a hell of a ballplayer before he became a Giant and before all the steroid talk came about.

It's just amazing to see he is now about to knock down the record, totally unbelievable it's at that point. Regardless of what's going on, I hope I personally see him hit 756....

[Tank]

Ehhh....I don't really care....Bonds was a hell of a ballplayer before he became a Giant and before all the steroid talk came about.

It's just amazing to see he is now about to knock down the record, totally unbelievable it's at that point. Regardless of what's going on, I hope I personally see him hit 756....

I agree. I hope I get to see it happen.

[utvolzac]

I'd say take a look at how the perception of Rafael Palmeiro changed on a dime once he was confirmed to be a user.

This sums it up for me. B-Rob is my favorite player, but if it came out that he was juiced in '05 when he had a power splurge, I would want him out of the organization immediately. I really don't buy into the argument that "everybody else was doing it", because it's still cheating. And its still a disgrace to the game, your team and your fans, IMO.

Palmeiro is the perfect example. Prior to his positive test, I was a big Raffy fan. However, I lost all respect for him after we found out he was on roids. I felt he had personally dishonored our team. I was at his first game back and proudly booed him long and loud.

I guess my philosophy is cheating is cheating, no matter if it was the so called "steroid era". Not everyone was using and some guys still played the game without enhancements. Plus, I think its a huge slap in the face to guys like Ripken who played the game the right way. Hank Aaron deserved the home run title, Bonds does not. One cheated, one didn't.

[square634]

The thing about the cheating is, some guys are celebrated (Gaylord Perry) for cheating by throwing spitballs. The other question is, how do we know that Hank Aaron never used something like a corked bat. I guess that is a different category of cheating.

Also, I don't want to get flamed for this, but how do we know, for sure, that Ripken "played the game the right way" and didn't use steroids? I mean, I don't think he did, but that's what I thought about Palmeiro, too.

Obviously there is a lot more evidence against Bonds, and I really don't like him, but I'm just playing devil's advocate.

[The Wedge]

I agree. I hope I get to see it happen.

I hope to see it happen, too, because even as much as I don't think it's clean nor do I particularly care for the man, it's history. I also hope to see it get broken again 7-8 years from now.

[Tank]

I hope to see it happen, too, because even as much as I don't think it's clean nor do I particularly care for the man, it's history. I also hope to see it get broken again 7-8 years from now.

Exactly.

"Excellent post, I agree!"

[JGuthrie46]

yeah.. wow what a day.. 500th for Arod and 755th for Bonds. I'm hoping Arod or Pujols can catch Bonds up and set a clean record. But for now, I'm happy for him. I was lucky I was watching the whole thing yesterday man.. and Hensley was pitchuing good too.

[YardBirds13]

This sums it up for me. B-Rob is my favorite player, but if it came out that he was juiced in '05 when he had a power splurge, I would want him out of the organization immediately. I really don't buy into the argument that "everybody else was doing it", because it's still cheating. And its still a disgrace to the game, your team and your fans, IMO.

Palmeiro is the perfect example. Prior to his positive test, I was a big Raffy fan. However, I lost all respect for him after we found out he was on roids. I felt he had personally dishonored our team. I was at his first game back and proudly booed him long and loud.

I guess my philosophy is cheating is cheating, no matter if it was the so called "steroid era". Not everyone was using and some guys still played the game without enhancements. Plus, I think its a huge slap in the face to guys like Ripken who played the game the right way. Hank Aaron deserved the home run title, Bonds does not. One cheated, one didn't.



It was a part of the game. Like it or not, it was a huge part of the game. Do you really think the greatest hitter of the entire era was one of only 3 or 4 guys on steroids?? You can't just wipe out an entire era of baseball becasue of something that most people say was widely used and widely accepted in baseball.

It happened. Now we are into a new era, but Bonds still has 755 homers, and nobody can take that away from him.

[geschinger]

It was a part of the game. Like it or not, it was a huge part of the game. Do you really think the greatest hitter of the entire era was one of only 3 or 4 guys on steroids?? You can't just wipe out an entire era of baseball becasue of something that most people say was widely used and widely accepted in baseball.


There is no reason to wipe out an entire era but there is also no reason for people to ignore those players who have been confirmed as being cheaters on the basis that there are others who have cheated. The most common estimates I've heard is that there were somewhere between 20-40% of players who used currently banned PEDs. Since some substances classified on PEDs are legal I'm sure that the number of players using illegal substances is even lower than that. While it's a lot of players - certainly a lot more than 3-4 players - It's not enough to justify tarnishing everyone from that era as having cheated and give a pass to those who have been confirmed as cheaters.

I'm not looking for Bonds to have an asterisk or have his name removed from the record books or anything that drastic. But I do think when the history of Bonds is written it would be irresponsible to ignore the cheating.

[mweb]

I truly believe that much of the Bonds hatred comes form the combination of steroids/being an ass. Let's be honest, there are players that played or are playing in our city that are beloved that are clearly on or were on something, and they're not spoken of in a negative way.

If McGwire (pre congress), or Sosa, guys who were known as being "fun loving" were going after this even with the suspicion of steroid use, I don't think there would be as much backlash. Bonds has always been a jerk, and that tainted people long before his steroid years.

Totally agree. If Bonds was a nice and fun loving guy, how fans view him would be a lot different. His personality is at least as big of a factor as the steroids are imo.

[utvolzac]

It was a part of the game. Like it or not, it was a huge part of the game. Do you really think the greatest hitter of the entire era was one of only 3 or 4 guys on steroids?? You can't just wipe out an entire era of baseball becasue of something that most people say was widely used and widely accepted in baseball.

It happened. Now we are into a new era, but Bonds still has 755 homers, and nobody can take that away from him.

It may have been part of the game during that era, but why should we punish players like Hank Aaron, who weren't part of the steriod era, by rewarding cheaters with hard earned records by people who didn't cheat.

Given the amount of evidence to support the blantant cheating during the steroid era, I wouldn't mind erasing those records completely. Or at the very least putting an * by them, even though I'm not a big * guy.

To me, 755 & 61 have not been broken. Especially 61. You cannot tell me that a record like that could stand for almost a half decade till Maris broke it, then stood for almost another half decade just to have 3 guys, not only break it, but shatter it. Not without significant enhancement going on.

[mweb]

BTW, I don't think it's that bad to "cheat" when it's only a response to lets say half of the league also "cheating", it's just a way of keeping up. Now I have more respect for the guys that didn't use steroids, and were able to play at a high level. However, as a fan, or as an owner/GM/caoch, if I knew about half of the players were using steroids to improve their game without repercussion, I'd actually support players on my team doing the same in order to win more games.

With that said, I would have prefered for steroids to have never been used in baseball. But since they were available and since it wasn't being tested for, and in some ways actually encouraged imo, it's something I can't blame guys for doing. Athletes have always tried to find a way to get that edge, and that includes guys like Aaron and Mays(greenies), that's just the way it is, and always will be.

[Mark Carver]

Totally agree. If Bonds was a nice and fun loving guy, how fans view him would be a lot different. His personality is at least as big of a factor as the steroids are imo.

And MLB players themselves too...? After all, he's not part of the MLBPA licensing agreement as he has opted out. He was the first player ever to do so in the 30-year history of the licensing program.

[mweb]

And MLB players themselves too...? After all, he's not part of the MLBPA licensing agreement as he has opted out. He was the first player ever to do so in the 30-year history of the licensing program.

I'm not sure what you're asking me or what this has to do with the conversation.

[EddieO's21]

Some of you are missing my point (and I think beaner's as well). Bonds did steroids. OK. But how do we know who else did? You say it'll be great to celebrate Griffey, but what if he took them? What if A-Rod did? You can't just pick and choose the guys you cheer and the ones you hate. The suspicion is gonna be there for every player of this era.

Hate it or love it, Late 80's to Early 2000's is going to be known as the steroid era. Bonds played in that era, and was by far BY FAR the best player in that era. So much better than anyone else, that this guy leads the universe in walks. I mean, someone actually considered it would be a good idea to walk this guy WITH THE BASES LOADED!!!

He did what he did. So did thousands of other hitters and pitchers. How many home runs did steroids help Bonds hit? Who knows. Nobody will ever know. I say less than people want to believe. I mean, as bean mentioned, the guy lost like 900 at bats because people refuse to pitch to him. How many would he have hit if people weren't absolutely TERRIFIED to pitch to him? Let alone talking about him having perhaps the greatest batting eye of any player in the history of baseball.

My point is, if you want to pull the hood over your eyes, and just mumble to yourself, and pretend like this never happened, then go ahead. Keep pretending it's 1984 and Henry Aaron is first on the all-time home run list. Me, I'm gonna celebrate one of the absolute greatest players in the history of baseball. Sure, he is an a-hole, he is pompous, and he doesn't seem to care for a lot of people, but he is a husband, a father, and actually pretty funny if you listen to him talk.

So do what you will. I'm gonna tell my kids that Bonds played in an era when a ton of players took some PED's, and he was one of them. Then I'll tell them that he was the greatest baseball player I've ever seen, and that he is the All-Time leader in Home Runs. (That is, unless A-Rod has passed him:D :D )

I don't...I despise everyone who did it...no matter how much I liked them previously

[geschinger]

Totally agree. If Bonds was a nice and fun loving guy, how fans view him would be a lot different. His personality is at least as big of a factor as the steroids are imo.

What do you base this assumption on? We've seen the reaction to McGwire and Palmeiro - both guys who were generally well liked by media and fans alike and both have had their reputations destroyed. If personality is as big of a factor then why was Palmeiro treated the way he was? Why did McGwire get less than 25% of the vote for the HOF? Maybe the response to Bonds wouldn't be as virtriolic if he was a nice person but he'd still be generating a lot of negativity based on the cheating alone.

[Mark Carver]

I'm not sure what you're asking me or what this has to do with the conversation.

Well, fans don't like him and maybe his fellow players don't either?

[davearm]

* Barry Bonds used (uses?) illegal performance enhancing drugs, and did (has done?) so for a lengthy period of time. It was 100% his decicion to do so, and it was a conscious and fully informed choice on his part.

* Barry Bonds has denied and/or avoided his guilt, despite the overwhelming evidence against him. This too is his conscious and fully informed choice.

* Barry Bonds has throughout his career comported himself around fans, teammates, and media members with an angry, dismissive, stand-offish, contempt-filled, and downright antisocial attitude. The stories of Bonds being a complete and utter selfcentered jerk in any and every situation that a famous athlete commonly finds himself in are legion. Again, this is his choice, and it's one he makes of his own free will.

That's quite a few things in life that Bonds has chosen for himself.

So I have absolutely zero sympathy for Bonds having to suffer whatever repercussions those conscious choices have brought, or will bring upon him.

If people hate him, won't recognize his accomplishments, or just plain don't care and wish he'd go away, then he's got nobody but himself to blame for it.

[Sports Guy]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread(i haven't read any of it) but Clay Hensley, the guy who gave up the homer, was suspended in the minors for steroid abuse...How about that irony?

[mweb]

Well, fans don't like him and maybe his fellow players don't either?

Most of them don't like him, I'm still not sure what that has to do with this though.

[mweb]

What do you base this assumption on? We've seen the reaction to McGwire and Palmeiro - both guys who were generally well liked by media and fans alike and both have had their reputations destroyed. If personality is as big of a factor then why was Palmeiro treated the way he was? Why did McGwire get less than 25% of the vote for the HOF? Maybe the response to Bonds wouldn't be as virtriolic if he was a nice person but he'd still be generating a lot of negativity based on the cheating alone.

There's no question Bonds would still get a lot of negative press and reaction from fans. I just feel there would be less of that if he was a good guy. I don't think it would be focused on nearly as much. The media hates him, and that leads to more negative press, which leads to swaying fans opinions of him.

I'd bet a lot more people hate Bonds than McGwire and Raffy.

Concering your HOF point, I don't think that has much to do with my point, but someone made a point, I think it was Beaner, that Bonds was already a no doubt about it HOF'er before using steroids and a great all around player, McGwire and Sosa relied on hr's to build their HOF resume. And neither come close to a clean Bonds even with the steroid use. And we obviously don't know how the vote will go with Bonds.

[Sports Guy]

There's no question Bonds would still get a lot of negative press and reaction from fans. I just feel there would be less of that if he was a good guy. I don't think it would be focused on nearly as much. The media hates him, and that leads them to more negative press, which leads to swaying fans opinions of him.

I'd bet a lot more people hate Bonds than McGwire and Raffy.


There is no doubt about this...If Bonds had a Ripken-esque personality, a lot of this would be more overlooked.

[Moose Milligan]

There is no doubt about this...If Bonds had a Ripken-esque personality, a lot of this would be more overlooked.

This is true. I'm over the whole steroids thing. The fact that he did them is offset by the fact that everyone else was doing them, too.

Doesn't make it right, don't get me wrong...but it's not like the playing level wasn't too terribly swayed.

I just hate to see giant douchebags hold major records like that. By and large, most of the people that hold major records in sports are good ambassadors for their sports, at least most of those who have played in the past 20, 25 years.

Marino, Gretzky, Abdul-Jabbar, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Emmit Smith, Jerry Rice, etc...all class acts, all give back to their sports, all good ambassadors to their sports.

Bonds is a classless idiot. I hope the tax thing comes around to bite him in the ass.

[RShack]

There is no doubt about this...If Bonds had a Ripken-esque personality, a lot of this would be more overlooked.
Well, there is that.

But if it was a case of somebody like Ripken, there'd also be a lot more disillusionment and tears. Hell, Palmiero broke my heart, and I was never especially in love with the guy. I liked him, but he wasn't a hero to a million kids.

The Bonds-hating is one portion of karmic justice and and another portion of questionable fairness (with him getting dumped on for the sins of both himself and a large subset of an entire generation of ballplayers).

Maybe everybody needs a bad guy to pin it all on. Without a bad guy, how do people focus their disgust? So, Barry has arranged to be the bad guy. I'd much rather have a high-visibility bad guy than have a Ripken-esque story tarnished.

There's something almost Shakespearean about the whole thing.

[24fps]

* Barry Bonds used (uses?) illegal performance enhancing drugs, and did (has done?) so for a lengthy period of time. It was 100% his decicion to do so, and it was a conscious and fully informed choice on his part.

* Barry Bonds has denied and/or avoided his guilt, despite the overwhelming evidence against him. This too is his conscious and fully informed choice.

* Barry Bonds has throughout his career comported himself around fans, teammates, and media members with an angry, dismissive, stand-offish, contempt-filled, and downright antisocial attitude. The stories of Bonds being a complete and utter selfcentered jerk in any and every situation that a famous athlete commonly finds himself in are legion. Again, this is his choice, and it's one he makes of his own free will.

That's quite a few things in life that Bonds has chosen for himself.

So I have absolutely zero sympathy for Bonds having to suffer whatever repercussions those conscious choices have brought, or will bring upon him.

If people hate him, won't recognize his accomplishments, or just plain don't care and wish he'd go away, then he's got nobody but himself to blame for it.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about how I might feel when the inevitable occurred - that being Bonds breaking Aarons record.

I doubt that I could put my feelings more succinctly than you have in your post.

[Hallas]

Bonds is a first-class jerkoff, yes, but no one's really given me a good answer as to why why everyone absolves Aaron and other players of the 60s and 70s of amphetamine use but lambasts Bonds for steroid use.

Any takers?

I have a long, long diatribe about how the "battle" against performance-enhancing drugs is silly, ill-conceived, and (obviously) ineffective, but that's for another post. The bottom line, however, is that if you want to hate Bonds because he's a jerk, that's your right. But hating because he took steroids shows kind of a double standard against him, considering the number of current ballplayers in steroids scandals, and the history of documented PE drug abuse and other cheating scandals throughout the history of baseball. (Hello Gaylord Perry.)

[DrungoHazewood]

Bonds is a first-class jerkoff, yes, but no one's really given me a good answer as to why why everyone absolves Aaron and other players of the 60s and 70s of amphetamine use but lambasts Bonds for steroid use.

Any takers?

I have a long, long diatribe about how the "battle" against performance-enhancing drugs is silly, ill-conceived, and (obviously) ineffective, but that's for another post. The bottom line, however, is that if you want to hate Bonds because he's a jerk, that's your right. But hating because he took steroids shows kind of a double standard against him, considering the number of current ballplayers in steroids scandals, and the history of documented PE drug abuse and other cheating scandals throughout the history of baseball. (Hello Gaylord Perry.)

The standard answer is something along the lines of "Greenies and steroids aren't in the same ballpark. Everybody knows a handful of greenies is just like drinking a couple cups of coffee, but steroids immediately turn you into an unholy combination of Babe Ruth and the Incredible Hulk. Greenies made it easier to stay up late, just like Jolt Cola, but 'roids were solely responsible for turning baseball from a strategy-packed game of speedsters into beer league softball." Not that I believe 5% of that, but that's generally the tone and content of the responses to this question I've seen before.

[BustaJ2632]

I've learned that there is no arguing this point. I really can't even begin to imagine how people can't see Bonds as the champ, but whatever. This is the kind of argument that nobody ever changes their mind on.

And there it is, really. I count myself in the beaner and YardBirds camp. I'm a little torn about it, but if it's going to happen, I want to see it. And if I happened to be in the park when it happened, I definitely would cheer.

If I may sidetrack this a little, the man belongs in the Hall of Fame - I don't think many posters here would argue that. I wonder if, sometime in the not-too-distant future, someone will admit to steroid use, or at least campaign for the election of suspected users, during their induction speech.

Whether that happens or not, eventually we will have a known user in the Hall. And when that happens, it would be impossible for me to leave out any of the suspected users.

[DrungoHazewood]

Whether that happens or not, eventually we will have a known user in the Hall. And when that happens, it would be impossible for me to leave out any of the suspected users.

But you're not a voter, and the voters seem to have a magical knowledge of who used and who didn't. It'll be a long time before this really plays out, but for now the standard seems to be big guys who hit homers are convicted, everyone else gets a pass. This despite the test results which have caught more 180-lb middle infielders and mediocre relievers than anything else.


It appears my hypocrisy knows no bounds.

It's either hypocrisy, or the natural human need to simplify and pigeonhole.

[Sports Guy]

Have they proven if steroids increase bat speed yet?

I thought i heard something on ESPN before...They interviewed scientists and they said that there is no scientific proof that steroids make you hit the ball further.

[DrungoHazewood]

Have they proven if steroids increase bat speed yet?

I thought i heard something on ESPN before...They interviewed scientists and they said that there is no scientific proof that steroids make you hit the ball further.

Of course they do, if they increase muscle mass. I know you have to be able to translate that increased strength into energy in a coordinated way, but think of it like swinging a whiffle ball bat. Can't you swing a whiffle ball bat a lot faster than a 36-ounce wood bat? Of course you can. Increased strength is just the other side of the lighter bat equation - both allow you to move the bat faster.

How much, and how this effect manifests itself in individual players, is very much open for debate.

[davearm]

Have they proven if steroids increase bat speed yet?

I thought i heard something on ESPN before...They interviewed scientists and they said that there is no scientific proof that steroids make you hit the ball further.
Well Jon hit this already, but let me add...

being stronger yields two distinct advantages when hitting.

The first is sheer batspeed through the hitting zone. Simple physics tells us that more batspeed = balls hit harder and farther.

The second is that with increased batspeed comes the ability to wait an extra split-second to recognize and center the ball you're trying to hit -- in essence, your reaction time is increased because the reaction itself (the swing) happens faster. The effect would be similar to knocking a few MPH off of a fastball. Obviously that makes the game easier too.

So long as you're onboard with the conclusion that steroids make you stronger, then it's a real short trip to the conclusion that steriods make you a better hitter, and able to hit the ball farther.

[Leitch]

Since it became obvious that Bonds was going to break the record, I think it's funny how A-Rod goes from being like, the greedy awful moneygrubbing example everything that's wrong with the game today because playing baseball better than like everybody in the world made him filthy rich to the heroic player of legend who is it said will one day purge all the evil from the number 755.

[mweb]

Since it became obvious that Bonds was going to break the record, I think it's funny how A-Rod goes from being like, the greedy awful moneygrubbing example everything that's wrong with the game today because playing baseball better than like everybody in the world made him filthy rich to the heroic player of legend who is it said will one day purge all the evil from the number 755.

Well at least until Jose Canseco's next book comes out. But yeah, it is funny.

[geschinger]

Since it became obvious that Bonds was going to break the record, I think it's funny how A-Rod goes from being like, the greedy awful moneygrubbing example everything that's wrong with the game today because playing baseball better than like everybody in the world made him filthy rich to the heroic player of legend who is it said will one day purge all the evil from the number 755.

It just goes to show that people are willing to overlook personality deficiencies when it comes to great accomplishments a lot more than they are willing to overlook cheating.

[mweb]

It just goes to show that people are willing to overlook personality deficiencies when it comes to great accomplishments a lot more than they are willing to overlook cheating.

I don't think Arod really has personality defeciencies, at least not major one's. He was one of the most beloved players in baseball before signing that huge contract, and later failing to be a "true Yankee", I don't think the media dislikes him. And lets not act like he's suddenly loved again.

[DrungoHazewood]

It just goes to show that people are willing to overlook personality deficiencies when it comes to great accomplishments a lot more than they are willing to overlook cheating.

Then explain Jason Giambi, and Gary Sheffield. Or the host of other caught and punished PED users who continue play every day without incident. I guess they haven't had any recent great accomplishments. The real lesson is, apparently, that cheating is fine if you're not on the verge of something historic.

[geschinger]

Then explain Jason Giambi, and Gary Sheffield. Or the host of other caught and punished PED users who continue play every day without incident. I guess they haven't had any recent great accomplishments. The real lesson is, apparently, that cheating is fine if you're not on the verge of something historic.

The lesson is that if you come clean people are likely to forgive. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both Giambi and Sheffield have admitted to usage whereas Bonds still denies it.

[square634]

Nope, Sheffield says he never used steroids because he never shot anything into his butt (or some other such nonsense).

[geschinger]

I don't think Arod really has personality defeciencies, at least not major one's. He was one of the most beloved players in baseball before signing that huge contract, and later failing to be a "true Yankee", I don't think the media dislikes him. And lets not act like he's suddenly loved again.

I think there is a difference betwen loving him and respecting his enormous talent.

The contract is a big part of why people dislike him but it's not the only thing. He seems to have contracted foot in mouth disease dating back to Texas. He's certainly said some incredibly stupid things and done some incredibly stupid things which is responsible for some of the negativity.

[square634]

Did he not testify that he used "the clear" and "the cream"?

So testifying to a grand jury (that should not have been leaked to the public in the first place) that he used substances without knowing they were steroids is coming clean?

Giambi has come the closest, but even he is too much of a scumbag to say why he is apologizing.

[geschinger]

So testifying to a grand jury (that should not have been leaked to the public in the first place) that he used substances without knowing they were steroids is coming clean?

Giambi has come the closest, but even he is too much of a scumbag to say why he is apologizing.

That is where MLB deserves alot of blame. They should announce that MLB and teams aren't going to go after players who come clean and the encourage them to come clean. I believe we'd have learned a lot more from players like Giambi if what they said couldn't be used against them to try and void their contracts.

[mweb]

The lesson is that if you come clean people are likely to forgive. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both Giambi and Sheffield have admitted to usage whereas Bonds still denies it.

Giambi was forced to apoligize for something, he didn't say what. Sheffield hasn't really done much different than Bonds. He admitted to using the stuff Bonds used(at least some of it), but to this day, claims they weren't steroids. Everyone seems to forget this now, but Bonds basically did a Giambi, where he pretty much admitted to using while not actually saying the word steroid.

Pudge Rodriguez was in Canseco's book, and he dropped about 30 pounds the year testing started, yet, no one seems to care about him.

[mweb]

I think there is a difference betwen loving him and respecting his enormous talent.

The contract is a big part of why people dislike him but it's not the only thing. He seems to have contracted foot in mouth disease dating back to Texas. He's certainly said some incredibly stupid things and done some incredibly stupid things which is responsible for some of the negativity.

Yes, but the gap between the dislike of Bonds and Arod is as big as the Grand Canyon.

I think most respect Bonds enormous talent as well, the SD crowd seemed to even though they hate Bonds.

[geschinger]

Yes, but the gap between the dislike of Bonds and Arod is as big as the Grand Canyon.

I think most respect Bonds enormous talent as well, the SD crowd seemed to even though they hate Bonds.

Yep, I agree with both statements. I also respect people who have a real problem w/Bonds' cheating as it is certainly a justifiable opinion. Like I said in another post I don't think his record should be asterisked or removed or anything like that. But I also don't think we should whitewash and ignore the cheating when the history of Bonds is written either. I think it is a sensible position.

[mweb]

Yep, I agree with both statements. I also respect people who have a real problem w/Bonds' cheating as it is certainly a justifiable opinion. Like I said in another post I don't think his record should be asterisked or removed or anything like that. But I also don't think we should whitewash and ignore the cheating when the history of Bonds is written either. I think it is a sensible position.

I have no problem with people having a problem with Bonds "cheating", but I do have a problem with people acting like he he's one of the few doing it and/or feel he should be chastised more than others for it.

It does seem that the history books have basically ignored a lot of "cheating" that has gone on in the past though.

[geschinger]

I have no problem with people having a problem with Bonds "cheating", but I do have a problem with people acting like he he's one of the few doing it and/or feel he should be chastised more than others for it.

It does seem that the history books have basically ignored a lot of "cheating" that has gone on in the past though.

It would be irresponsible for the history books to ignore *anyone* who has been confirmed as being a cheater.

[mweb]

It would be irresponsible for the history books to ignore *anyone* who has been confirmed as being a cheater.

Well greenies are basically ignored. Doctoring balls is basically ignored. Stealing signs is ignored. Corking bats is something that is mostly forgotten.

To me though, I don't think I'd call using steroids cheating, at least not before baseball took a stand against it, and testing started. This was something I'd guess at least half of the players tried, something that was not tested for, was not against the rules of baseball as far as I know, was not really discouraged by the commisioner, owners, or other players, in fact, one could argue it was encouraged.

[geschinger]

Well greenies are basically ignored. Doctoring balls is basically ignored. Stealing signs is ignored. Corking bats is something that is mostly forgotten.

To me though, I don't think I'd call using steroids cheating, at least not before baseball took a stand against it, and testing started. This was something I'd guess at least half of the players tried, something that was not tested for, was not against the rules of baseball as far as I know, was not really discouraged by the commisioner, owners, or other players, in fact, one could argue it was encouraged.

I don't have a problem with players who used supplements that are legal and banned now that weren't banned in the past. But I do draw the line at using products that are illegal to gain an advantage. Gaylord Perry is in the HOF but everyone talks about his using the spitball. I'd be fine for the same standard being applied to Bonds and any other player for whom usage of illegal substances are confirmed. That would be a fair and just outcome, no?

[mweb]

I don't have a problem with players who used supplements that are legal and banned now that weren't banned in the past. But I do draw the line at using products that are illegal to gain an advantage. Gaylord Perry is in the HOF but everyone talks about his using the spitball. I'd be fine for the same standard being applied to Bonds and any other player for whom usage of illegal substances are confirmed. That would be a fair and just outcome, no?

I don't think so because there are going to be many players in the HOF, and hundreds that aren't, who also used steroids that aren't confirmed. And yeah, they were illegal, but like I just said, baseball was turning a blind eye to "the problem"(in quoted because I don't think they viewed it as a problem until the media/government thought it was) and in a way, encouraging it.

I think it's fair to name specific guys, but only if it's known that this was the steroid era and many many players used them, and also known what the circumstances of the era were, meaning no consequences for using steroids, etc.

[Hallas]

I don't have a problem with players who used supplements that are legal and banned now that weren't banned in the past. But I do draw the line at using products that are illegal to gain an advantage. Gaylord Perry is in the HOF but everyone talks about his using the spitball. I'd be fine for the same standard being applied to Bonds and any other player for whom usage of illegal substances are confirmed. That would be a fair and just outcome, no?

The application of this standard is impossible. Take greenies. Maybe they weren't banned by baseball, but they're regulated by the FDA and it's very illegal to use without a prescription. And then there was Andro, which was banned by most sporting leagues but not regulated by the FDA until relatively recently. And of course there are the designer steroids, which go unregulated by the FDA until they can be discovered.

So just whose definition of "Illegal" are we following?

Hell, it looks like I'm getting pulled into my diatribe, so I might as well roll with it.

While we're on the subject of "legality," what's the definition of a performance enhancer? Is something a performance enhancing simply because it you an unfair advantage? Wouldn't Gatorade apply? Why weren't the Florida Gators penalized for using an artificial drink supplement to improve performance? And then there's cortisone shots. Clearly a drug. Definite negative side effects. Definite performance enhancer if the user suffers from joint problems. Why is Cortisone allowed? There's a fine line between "innovative" and "cheating" when it comes to performance in sports, and often that line is decided arbitrarily. What's worse, the enforcement policies, rather than ensuring a level playing field as they claim, do more to create a potential unfair advantage. This is because of the increased demand for designer, undetectable drugs, that, once discovered, remain with a select few.

As unappealing as the option is, the only way to ensure an environment that's both safe and fair is to make steroids/PEDs readily available for all.

I'm not even done; there's a whole lot more where that came from, especially the hypocrisy of fans who cheer roided players on their hometown teams, then boo and denigrate roided players they don't like on opposing teams.

[geschinger]

The application of this standard is impossible. Take greenies. Maybe they weren't banned by baseball, but they're regulated by the FDA and it's very illegal to use without a prescription. And then there was Andro, which was banned by most sporting leagues but not regulated by the FDA until relatively recently. And of course there are the designer steroids, which go unregulated by the FDA until they can be discovered.

So just whose definition of "Illegal" are we following?


Illegal being that one is breaking the law to obtain a particular product. There is a big difference between something like Andro which you can buy from a local GNC and anabolic steroids coming in via the black market.



While we're on the subject of "legality," what's the definition of a performance enhancer? Is something a performance enhancing simply because it you an unfair advantage? Wouldn't Gatorade apply? Why weren't the Florida Gators penalized for using an artificial drink supplement to improve performance?


That's an interesting question. Steroids help enhance a players strength which could help them produce better than they otherwise might be able to naturally. The exact same thing can be said about laser surgery on the eyes or eyeglasses or the PECs that Brian Roberts used. My standard again would be if society has decided a particular substance is against the law to obtain and a player is caught using they should be taken to the woodshed. Going forward if players have a list of substances the league has chosen to ban, I have no problem w/that either.



And then there's cortisone shots. Clearly a drug. Definite negative side effects. Definite performance enhancer if the user suffers from joint problems. Why is Cortisone allowed? There's a fine line between "innovative" and "cheating" when it comes to performance in sports, and often that line is decided arbitrarily. What's worse, the enforcement policies, rather than ensuring a level playing field as they claim, do more to create a potential unfair advantage. This is because of the increased demand for designer, undetectable drugs, that, once discovered, remain with a select few.


Cortisone shots are not against the law and teams have physicians who administer them.



As unappealing as the option is, the only way to ensure an environment that's both safe and fair is to make steroids/PEDs readily available for all.


How is making substances that are inherently unsafe readily available going to ensure an environment that is safe? I don't understand that logic.

[geschinger]

I don't think so because there are going to be many players in the HOF, and hundreds that aren't, who also used steroids that aren't confirmed. And yeah, they were illegal, but like I just said, baseball was turning a blind eye to "the problem"(in quoted because I don't think they viewed it as a problem until the media/government thought it was) and in a way, encouraging it.

I think it's fair to name specific guys, but only if it's known that this was the steroid era and many many players used them, and also known what the circumstances of the era were, meaning no consequences for using steroids, etc.

There are probably many players in the HOF and hundreds that aren't who engaged in doctoring baseballs etc... But that doesn't stop the spitballs from being written about anytime that Perry is talked about nor should steorids be ignored when Bonds is talked about in the future. One can qualify it has a era when steroids were prevalent but it is more unfair to taint players from this era who did not participate in using PEDs than it is to single out those we know who did.

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree. I understand the theory that because there might have been a lot of players who were users that we should wipe the slate clean and write off previous transgressions as just being part of the game for a particular era. I believe that is the wrong approach to give players we know beyond a doubt did something a pass because there were supposedly many others doing the same thing.

[DrungoHazewood]

There are probably many players in the HOF and hundreds that aren't who engaged in doctoring baseballs etc... But that doesn't stop the spitballs from being written about anytime that Perry is talked about nor should steorids be ignored when Bonds is talked about in the future. One can qualify it has a era when steroids were prevalent but it is more unfair to taint players from this era who did not participate in using PEDs than it is to single out those we know who did.

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree. I understand the theory that because there might have been a lot of players who were users that we should wipe the slate clean and write off previous transgressions as just being part of the game for a particular era. I believe that is the wrong approach to give players we know beyond a doubt did something a pass because there were supposedly many others doing the same thing.

The problem with the whole thing is that we know beyond any doubt that many players took PEDs. We also know with a fair amount of certainty who some small percentage of those players were. The end result will be unqualified honors bestowed on those who got away with it, and horrible shame for those who had the bad luck to get caught.

This can't be discussed without bringing up the blatant hypocrisy of the owners and MLB officials who encouraged the whole thing when it benefited them (or at the very least turned a blind eye to it), but who've become righteous moralists now that the public's mood has turned sour. Bonds has one thing right - it's absolutely true that PEDs were encouraged when people were making a run at some relatively obscure guy like Roger Maris, but when Bud's own hero Hank Aaron has his record challenged they're pure evil. Bonds was wrong to do what he did, but baseball's establishment loved steroids when they helped rescue the game from the strike/lockout.

[DrungoHazewood]

Illegal being that one is breaking the law to obtain a particular product. There is a big difference between something like Andro which you can buy from a local GNC and anabolic steroids coming in via the black market.



That's an interesting question. Steroids help enhance a players strength which could help them produce better than they otherwise might be able to naturally. The exact same thing can be said about laser surgery on the eyes or eyeglasses or the PECs that Brian Roberts used. My standard again would be if society has decided a particular substance is against the law to obtain and a player is caught using they should be taken to the woodshed. Going forward if players have a list of substances the league has chosen to ban, I have no problem w/that either.



Cortisone shots are not against the law and teams have physicians who administer them.



How is making substances that are inherently unsafe readily available going to ensure an environment that is safe? I don't understand that logic.

I think the (ill)legality of various substances is as much tradition, lobbying, fear, misunderstanding, and lack of knowledge as it is a reflection of some great wisdom on the subject possessed by career politicians. I always assumed Andro was legal because some company wanted to make a substance that gave steroid-like effects but they intentionally stopped just short of some arbitrary dividing line that would make it illegal.

Legal is going 55 in a 55. Illegal is 55.5 in a 55. On a good day you can go 75. On a bad day you're booked for 57. If you're driving a red Corvette you'll get pulled for 65, but an old beat up Cavalier probably doesn't get noticed at the same speed. Lots of laws are like that, including those concerning PEDs.

[eddie83]

The problem with the whole thing is that we know beyond any doubt that many players took PEDs. We also know with a fair amount of certainty who some small percentage of those players were. The end result will be unqualified honors bestowed on those who got away with it, and horrible shame for those who had the bad luck to get caught.

This can't be discussed without bringing up the blatant hypocrisy of the owners and MLB officials who encouraged the whole thing when it benefited them (or at the very least turned a blind eye to it), but who've become righteous moralists now that the public's mood has turned sour. Bonds has one thing right - it's absolutely true that PEDs were encouraged when people were making a run at some relatively obscure guy like Roger Maris, but when Bud's own hero Hank Aaron has his record challenged they're pure evil. Bonds was wrong to do what he did, but baseball's establishment loved steroids when they helped rescue the game from the strike/lockout.

It is personal for Bud. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/02/27/shadows.afterword/1.html
Selig's concern over Bonds's use of performance-enhancing drugs was eclipsed by a sense of personal betrayal: twice the commissioner had confronted the ballplayer in the midst of the BALCO scandal, offering him the chance to come clean. Instead, Bonds had told Selig he had nothing to worry about.
I don't have a problem for people to get on MLB for the steroid issue but the MLBPA deserves just as much criticism. The players with the power of the union could of stopped this long ago.

[mweb]

There are probably many players in the HOF and hundreds that aren't who engaged in doctoring baseballs etc... But that doesn't stop the spitballs from being written about anytime that Perry is talked about nor should steorids be ignored when Bonds is talked about in the future. One can qualify it has a era when steroids were prevalent but it is more unfair to taint players from this era who did not participate in using PEDs than it is to single out those we know who did.

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree. I understand the theory that because there might have been a lot of players who were users that we should wipe the slate clean and write off previous transgressions as just being part of the game for a particular era. I believe that is the wrong approach to give players we know beyond a doubt did something a pass because there were supposedly many others doing the same thing.

I'm clearly not saying that Bonds' steroid use should be ignored or that we should just wipe the slate clean for these guys, so I don't understand why you keep portraying my opinion that way.

However, even most of the clean players are to blame for this because their union was a big part of the problem, so I'm not sure it is unfair to taint all the players from this era. Obviously there are some you are going to be more suspicious about than others, however one can't be positive about anyone from the last 20 years imo.

And I think you can take away the words might and supposedly from that last paragraph.

[mweb]

The problem with the whole thing is that we know beyond any doubt that many players took PEDs. We also know with a fair amount of certainty who some small percentage of those players were. The end result will be unqualified honors bestowed on those who got away with it, and horrible shame for those who had the bad luck to get caught.

This can't be discussed without bringing up the blatant hypocrisy of the owners and MLB officials who encouraged the whole thing when it benefited them (or at the very least turned a blind eye to it), but who've become righteous moralists now that the public's mood has turned sour. Bonds has one thing right - it's absolutely true that PEDs were encouraged when people were making a run at some relatively obscure guy like Roger Maris, but when Bud's own hero Hank Aaron has his record challenged they're pure evil. Bonds was wrong to do what he did, but baseball's establishment loved steroids when they helped rescue the game from the strike/lockout.


Good post. As for what Barry did being wrong, I agree, however, it is very understandable why he did it.

[geschinger]

However, even most of the clean players are to blame for this because their union was a big part of the problem, so I'm not sure it is unfair to taint all the players from this era. Obviously there are some you are going to be more suspicious about than others, however one can't be positive about anyone from the last 20 years imo.


I'm uncomfortable w/guilt by association and while it's true that we can't be positive about any particular player being clean from the last 20 years we can be positive about the handful of players for whom usage has been confirmed beyond a shadow of doubt.

[geschinger]

I think the (ill)legality of various substances is as much tradition, lobbying, fear, misunderstanding, and lack of knowledge as it is a reflection of some great wisdom on the subject possessed by career politicians. I always assumed Andro was legal because some company wanted to make a substance that gave steroid-like effects but they intentionally stopped just short of some arbitrary dividing line that would make it illegal.


Sure, I agree w/this. It is only natural for companies to create products that push things to the limit.



Legal is going 55 in a 55. Illegal is 55.5 in a 55. On a good day you can go 75. On a bad day you're booked for 57. If you're driving a red Corvette you'll get pulled for 65, but an old beat up Cavalier probably doesn't get noticed at the same speed. Lots of laws are like that, including those concerning PEDs.

Agree w/this also, but if you are booked breaking the rules you face the consequences. You aren't going to be let off the hook if there are others driving as fast or faster. Bonds got caught, that others might be participating in the same kind of behaviors should not alleviate the consequences of his behavior.

[mweb]

I think the (ill)legality of various substances is as much tradition, lobbying, fear, misunderstanding, and lack of knowledge as it is a reflection of some great wisdom on the subject possessed by career politicians. I always assumed Andro was legal because some company wanted to make a substance that gave steroid-like effects but they intentionally stopped just short of some arbitrary dividing line that would make it illegal.

Legal is going 55 in a 55. Illegal is 55.5 in a 55. On a good day you can go 75. On a bad day you're booked for 57. If you're driving a red Corvette you'll get pulled for 65, but an old beat up Cavalier probably doesn't get noticed at the same speed. Lots of laws are like that, including those concerning PEDs.

Yeah, good points as usual. It seems people like to break out the "it's against the law" card only when it's helpful to their point. Most don't care about speeding, a 20 year old drinking at a party their parents are having, people using marijuana, etc, but god forbid someone take something to make them stronger which might have negative effects on them in the long run.

Again, I wish steroids never entered the game of baseball, but I don't really care much about the legality of it, it's just not that big of a deal from that perspective. It's a bigger deal in altering the attempt at creating a level playing field in sports. That is a problem, one that the commish, owners, and players union created. You can't provide professional athletes with a readily available opportunity to give them an edge without anything to prevent them from taking it, and then expect them not to go after that edge.

Now, again, to be clear, the players who got that edge should still get some flack and it should be taken into consideration when evaluating them as a player.

I just don't like how Bonds get the vast majority of the wrath for this, while Selig, the owners, the players union, other known users, and other guys that are rather obvious users are mostly let off the hook.

[mweb]

I'm uncomfortable w/guilt by association and while it's true that we can't be positive about any particular player being clean from the last 20 years we can be positive about the handful of players for whom usage has been confirmed beyond a shadow of doubt.

I'm not sure where you get guilt by association from what I'm saying.:confused: I'm saying you can't be sure about anyone, not everyone is guilty.

[mweb]

Sure, I agree w/this. It is only natural for companies to create products that push things to the limit.



Agree w/this also, but if you are booked breaking the rules you face the consequences. You aren't going to be let off the hook if there are others driving as fast or faster. Bonds got caught, that others might be participating in the same kind of behaviors should not alleviate the consequences of his behavior.

Yes, but no one is going to look down at someone because they were going 70 in a 55. We aren't talking about the legal consequences here, we're talking about the court of public opionion.

[geschinger]

I'm not sure where you get guilt by association from what I'm saying.:confused: I'm saying you can't be sure about anyone, not everyone is guilty.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I read that post is that you were saying it might not be unfair to taint everyone from this era. Maybe guilt was too strong a word but I do believe it is completely unfair to taint the many players who were clean strictly because they were associated w/a union that could of been more helpful in fighting the problem.

[mweb]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I read that post is that you were saying it might not be unfair to taint everyone from this era. Maybe guilt was too strong a word but I do believe it is completely unfair to taint the many players who were clean strictly because they were associated w/a union that could of been more helpful in fighting the problem.

It's not strictly because of their union, it's also because about half of them actually used the stuff imo, maybe more. Yes, guilt is way too strong, taint works just fine. The whole era is tainted and you can't be sure that anyone did not use. It's that simple.

[geschinger]

It's not strictly because of their union, it's also because about half of them actually used the stuff imo, maybe more. Yes, guilt is way too strong, taint works just fine. The whole era is tainted and you can't be sure that anyone did not use. It's that simple.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Taint by association is wrong as well IMO.

[mweb]

We'll have to agree to disagree. Taint by association is wrong as well IMO.

I don't see how you can get around considering this the steroid era unless you want to be pretend like it wasn't widespread much like the commish and owners did. And I don't see how you can say any specific player never used steroids without a doubt.

[Hallas]

Illegal being that one is breaking the law to obtain a particular product. There is a big difference between something like Andro which you can buy from a local GNC and anabolic steroids coming in via the black market.



That's an interesting question. Steroids help enhance a players strength which could help them produce better than they otherwise might be able to naturally. The exact same thing can be said about laser surgery on the eyes or eyeglasses or the PECs that Brian Roberts used. My standard again would be if society has decided a particular substance is against the law to obtain and a player is caught using they should be taken to the woodshed. Going forward if players have a list of substances the league has chosen to ban, I have no problem w/that either.



Cortisone shots are not against the law and teams have physicians who administer them.



How is making substances that are inherently unsafe readily available going to ensure an environment that is safe? I don't understand that logic.

Not all players go to the black market to get their PEDs. David Segui is a player who was able to find a doctor to give him a (highly dubious) diagnosis that required a prescription for HGH. Does that mean that Segui is suddenly immune cheating allegations? Hell, BALCO is full of really rich, really smart people whose salaries are predicated upon how many HRs they can induce out of people like Sheffield and Bonds. I'm sure they found someone with an MD who could prescribe drugs to the players who wanted them.

The reason I said that they should be readily available, is because in addition to the drugs, they get the monitoring of health care professionals to make sure that they are minimizing side effects and preventing serious long-term effects. Considering most athletes are going to dope anyway it seems, that option seems a lot more appealing than having 50% or 60% of athletes dope without proper supervision and hurt themselves more serverely.

[geschinger]

I don't see how you can get around considering this the steroid era unless you want to be pretend like it wasn't widespread much like the commish and owners did. And I don't see how you can say any specific player never used steroids without a doubt.

I'd get around it the same way I got around the use of greenies in the 70s (used wisely - maybe moreso than steroids?) and cocaine in the 80s (although I know it wasn't anywhere near as widespread). I'd ignore it for those we have no evidence. For example, I have no idea if guys like Brooks Robinson or Jim Palmer popped handfuls of greenies but I'm not going to consider their careers tainted w/o specific evidence that they were users.

[geschinger]

Not all players go to the black market to get their PEDs. David Segui is a player who was able to find a doctor to give him a (highly dubious) diagnosis that required a prescription for HGH. Does that mean that Segui is suddenly immune cheating allegations? Hell, BALCO is full of really rich, really smart people whose salaries are predicated upon how many HRs they can induce out of people like Sheffield and Bonds. I'm sure they found someone with an MD who could prescribe drugs to the players who wanted them.


Going forward, if the product is not on MLBs banned substance list then sure, if doctor feels a treatment is necessary, I have no problems there. I still make a distinction between legal treatments and those substances that are illegal to obtain. Therefore there is no wiggle room when it comes to what BALCO was offering.


The reason I said that they should be readily available, is because in addition to the drugs, they get the monitoring of health care professionals to make sure that they are minimizing side effects and preventing serious long-term effects. Considering most athletes are going to dope anyway it seems, that option seems a lot more appealing than having 50% or 60% of athletes dope without proper supervision and hurt themselves more serverely.

I don't accept that most athletes are going to dope. I'd rather see MLB institute a hard core Olympic style anti-doping program and make sure widespread usage of PEDs does not occur. The many players who are clean shouldn't be forced to dope up at the expense of their long term health to be on a level playing field with those that don't care.

[mweb]

I'd get around it the same way I got around the use of greenies in the 70s (used wisely - maybe moreso than steroids?) and cocaine in the 80s (although I know it wasn't anywhere near as widespread). I'd ignore it for those we have no evidence. For example, I have no idea if guys like Brooks Robinson or Jim Palmer popped handfuls of greenies but I'm not going to consider their careers tainted w/o specific evidence that they were users.

Ok, ignore it for Bret Boone, Sammy Sosa, Big Mac, Pudge Rodriguez, and numerous other players who very likely took steroids, but we don't have proof. Lets just act like there were only a few bad seeds.

[DrungoHazewood]

I don't accept that most athletes are going to dope. I'd rather see MLB institute a hard core Olympic style anti-doping program and make sure widespread usage of PEDs does not occur. The many players who are clean shouldn't be forced to dope up at the expense of their long term health to be on a level playing field with those that don't care.

I think it's naive to suggest that even the extremely harsh, we-ban-Sudafed Olympic program catches a lot of dopers. The designer stuff still gets through and it always will. For the forseeable future, or maybe forever, we're stuck with an environment where there will be dopers competing with clean players.

Just look at the Olympics and the Tour de France. The most rigorous testing in programs in any sport, yet at every event many people get caught and you have to assume just as many are doping and don't get caught.

[geschinger]

Ok, ignore it for Bret Boone, Sammy Sosa, Big Mac, Pudge Rodriguez, and numerous other players who very likely took steroids, but we don't have proof. Lets just act like there were only a few bad seeds.

I don't know that it is any worse than to cast aspersion on those who were/are clean. I know I would hate to think that if in my workplace some people used illegal drugs that I would be tainted by association.

[DrungoHazewood]

I'd get around it the same way I got around the use of greenies in the 70s (used wisely - maybe moreso than steroids?) and cocaine in the 80s (although I know it wasn't anywhere near as widespread). I'd ignore it for those we have no evidence. For example, I have no idea if guys like Brooks Robinson or Jim Palmer popped handfuls of greenies but I'm not going to consider their careers tainted w/o specific evidence that they were users.

I just can't go with a program that crushes, just destroys, people who're caught and otherwise just assumes everyone is clean as the wind-driven snow. What is "specific evidence"? Caught failing a drug test? Rumors? Added muscle mass? Mentioned in a book by a disgruntled former player? Fits some stereotypical profile (and "struggling middle reliever" seems to be a good one, since they fail tests at least as often as any other group).

Jim Bouton said every clubhouse he was in during the late 60s and 70s had bowls of greenies out for the taking, and many sources said greenie-laced coffee was ubiquitous. I think that's pretty good evidence that a very large percentage of MLB players were using, certainly a majority did at least occasionally. You'd probably be better off with the assumption that everyone was using than no one, or just those who were caught.

[DrungoHazewood]

I don't know that it is any worse than to cast aspersion on those who were/are clean. I know I would hate to think that if in my workplace some people used illegal drugs that I would be tainted by association.

If Jose Canseco worked in your office, got fired, and wrote a bestseller about how 80% of your company used illegal drugs wouldn't you already be tainted by association?

[geschinger]

I think it's naive to suggest that even the extremely harsh, we-ban-Sudafed Olympic program catches a lot of dopers. The designer stuff still gets through and it always will. For the forseeable future, or maybe forever, we're stuck with an environment where there will be dopers competing with clean players.

There will always be people who push the envelope and cross the line and cheat. But what is the solution? Legalize everything and force players to make a decision between their health and playing ball? If you make it easy and legal doping up would essentially become a prerequisite, no?

[DrungoHazewood]

There will always be people who push the envelope and cross the line and cheat. But what is the solution? Legalize everything and force players to make a decision between their health and playing ball? If you make it easy and legal doping up would essentially become a prerequisite, no?

I'm not entirely sure what the solution is, but whatever happens you have to assume that some percentage of the players will be doping and will never get caught. And you can't just cover your eyes and ears and say anyone who didn't get caught is clean.

Drug testing is like IFF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_friend_or_foe). You only identify friends in IFF - everyone is a friend or an unknown. In drug testing everyone is either guilty or unknown.

I think the only way to come close to eliminating the stuff from baseball would be the combination of a completely independent testing entity that's very well funded, lifetime bans for a first offense, and retroactive salary confiscation for people who are caught.

[geschinger]

I'm not entirely sure what the solution is, but whatever happens you have to assume that some percentage of the players will be doping and will never get caught. And you can't just cover your eyes and ears and say anyone who didn't get caught is clean.

Drug testing is like IFF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_friend_or_foe). You only identify friends in IFF - everyone is a friend or an unknown. In drug testing everyone is either guilty or unknown.


I'm not suggesting we say that anyone who is not caught is clean and by the same token I don't think we should err on the other side by implying that anyone who played in this era is likely dirty. When we look back at Bonds career I think it's fair that steroids are part of his personal history. I do not think it would be fair to look back at someone like Tom Glavines career and imply that steroids might have been a factor in his being able to win 300 games w/o any evidence but simply because he played in a particular era.



I think the only way to come close to eliminating the stuff from baseball would be the combination of a completely independent testing entity that's very well funded, lifetime bans for a first offense, and retroactive salary confiscation for people who are caught.

I'd be all for that. I do think at some point we will end up w/independent testing. Hopefully sooner rather than later. And draconian penalties would and should be implemented.

[DrungoHazewood]

I do not think it would be fair to look back at someone like Tom Glavines career and imply that steroids might have been a factor in his being able to win 300 games w/o any evidence but simply because he played in a particular era.

What is your evidence that Tom Glavine didn't use PEDs? And how is that any different from, say, Ryan Franklin the day before he was caught?

[DrungoHazewood]

Here's a very interesting addition to the whole Bonds debate, exerpts from an article today by BP's Will Carroll:


You don't know Mark Silva, but you know his work. As a certified orthotist, Silva is one of the top builders of custom sports braces for athletes. He's made them for football players in his work with the San Francisco 49ers, and he's made them for baseball players, including Rickey Henderson and Mo Vaughn. It's the brace that Barry Bonds wears while batting that Silva is best known for.

....

The brace that Bonds wears was first constructed in 1992. Bonds needed a brace to protect his arm after surgery, and Silva's work with athletes was already well-known. Each year, Bonds comes into Silva's workplace and has a mold made of his arm, which allows Silva to custom-build the brace. Silva explains that "it's a pretty labor-intensive.

...

It's the molds that bring forth the most interesting fact regarding Bonds since Game of Shadows was published. Silva states that because of the custom nature of the work, he's been asked to make casts of Bonds each year. In the first couple of years, he went through the entire process, but due to his workload, he started checking Bonds with precision calipers each subsequent year. "If I made the same brace every year for 12 or more years," Silva said, "it was because there was no size change in Barry's arms."

...

You read that correctly--the man who not only builds Bonds' brace, but who has taken precision measurements of his arm since 1992, has not seen any increase in the size of Bonds' arm. Point blank, Silva said "there's been no significant change in the size of his arms."

[geschinger]

What is your evidence that Tom Glavine didn't use PEDs? And how is that any different from, say, Ryan Franklin the day before he was caught?

How do you prove a negative? I know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ... Call me old fashioned but I believe people should be considered innocent until proven guilty whether it be in a court of law or in the court of public opinion.

[geschinger]

Here's a very interesting addition to the whole Bonds debate, exerpts from an article today by BP's Will Carroll:

Very interesting indeed. I've read that his equipment manager in SF has testified that since he came to SF his jersey size has grown significantly as well as his hat size (even though he starting shaving his head after arriving in SF). The most damning of all is that feet have grown 2-3 sizes which supposedly is a side effect of HGH.

[DrungoHazewood]

How do you prove a negative? I know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ... Call me old fashioned but I believe people should be considered innocent until proven guilty whether it be in a court of law or in the court of public opinion.

What the heck is the court of public opinion and how can you be "proven" guilty by it? Public opinion on PEDs is usually wildly misinformed. The court of public opinion has already passed judgment on hundreds of players with barely a speck of evidence while completley ignoring dozens of others who've been actually found guilty.

You obviously can't prove a negative, and that's my point. We'll never know who used and who didn't, or what the effects of usage were, but every day people are tried and convicted by public opinion while hundreds or thousands of other users are given a pass.

My point is that people need to stop with this idea that they know that someone is 100% clean or 100% dirty. I just want people to admit that almost all of the opinions on who used and who didn't and what the effects were are not based on any kind of facts at all.

Tom Boswell wrote a glowing ode to Ripken and Gwynn the day after the induction. He made sure to compare and contrast them to Bonds at every opportunity. He strongly implied that Ripken and Gwynn never, ever, ever took any PEDs at all. He has no reliable evidence of that at all.

If you're going to convict people on rumors and vague impressions, you need to allow for the idea that people you think are clean really aren't.

[66-70-83-??]

Very interesting indeed. I've read that his equipment manager in SF has testified that since he came to SF his jersey size has grown significantly as well as his hat size (even though he starting shaving his head after arriving in SF). The most damning of all is that feet have grown 2-3 sizes which supposedly is a side effect of HGH.

So his arms haven't grown at all in 13 years despite all of the weight training ?

LOL. Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

Like this Silva guy is going to cook the golden goose by implying steroid usage by his trophy client.

The SF equipment manager has a lot more credibility than some guy benefitting financially from Bonds the customer.

Game of Shadows is full of damning evidence against Bonds. He admitted to using "The Cream" and "The Clear". With Bonds there is no doubt about his using steroids.

I am a charter member of BP.com and have read their books since the beginning. I like much of it, but the one main gripe I have is that BP is militantly Pro-MLBPA on every issue that arises within baseball.

The fact that this article about the brace is their frontpage headline story tells you about their agenda.

Fehr or Orza probably called and gave BP marching orders hurry up and counter the article about the brace possibly helping Bonds that hit the internet yesterday. Both articles about the brace are worthless. Neither are "news".

BP used to always scoff at the notion that baseball players would ever use steroids until it became silly to debate.

Since, they have been downplaying the usage and suggesting that perhaps they don't really even help the players anyway.

[mweb]

I don't know that it is any worse than to cast aspersion on those who were/are clean. I know I would hate to think that if in my workplace some people used illegal drugs that I would be tainted by association.

Very different situation, there's no advantage to you taking drugs in your workplace. And I don't think I am casting aspersion on clean players. I'm saying you can't be sure that anyone is/was clean. I don't think anyone would argue with that.

[utvolzac]

Very interesting indeed. I've read that his equipment manager in SF has testified that since he came to SF his jersey size has grown significantly as well as his hat size (even though he starting shaving his head after arriving in SF). The most damning of all is that feet have grown 2-3 sizes which supposedly is a side effect of HGH.

All the evidence you need is just to look at him.

Unless Bonds was exposed to high amounts of radiation that nobody knew about, I can't see how someone hits their mid 30's and has head & feet growth naturally.

[Moose Milligan]

Bastard did it.

:(

[Pedro Cerrano]

Congrats to the greatest offensive player of my generation and a top 5 player of all time. And he did it against the GNATS!!!

[ixcuincle]

There's the inner-game celebration you wouldn't see at Dodgers STadium or Petco Park. Fireworks are going off...I hate to say it , but I was overjoyed when it was hit. I just wanted this to be over with...at least he did it at home.

Now we wait 7 or 8 years for A-Rod to break his record. ;)

[beaner]

Way to go Barry!!! Best offensive player I've ever seen! Kudos to Hank Aaron as well!!! Shame on you Bud Selig..

[DrungoHazewood]

So his arms haven't grown at all in 13 years despite all of the weight training ?

LOL. Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

Like this Silva guy is going to cook the golden goose by implying steroid usage by his trophy client.

The SF equipment manager has a lot more credibility than some guy benefitting financially from Bonds the customer.

Game of Shadows is full of damning evidence against Bonds. He admitted to using "The Cream" and "The Clear". With Bonds there is no doubt about his using steroids.

I am a charter member of BP.com and have read their books since the beginning. I like much of it, but the one main gripe I have is that BP is militantly Pro-MLBPA on every issue that arises within baseball.

The fact that this article about the brace is their frontpage headline story tells you about their agenda.

Fehr or Orza probably called and gave BP marching orders hurry up and counter the article about the brace possibly helping Bonds that hit the internet yesterday. Both articles about the brace are worthless. Neither are "news".

BP used to always scoff at the notion that baseball players would ever use steroids until it became silly to debate.

Since, they have been downplaying the usage and suggesting that perhaps they don't really even help the players anyway.

So your contention is that the interview/article was either invented out of thin air, or just lies?