756

[orioles119]

Well... he did it.

No more interrupted games or special ESPN games.

Hank Aaron will never be forgotten and neither will Mike Bacsik.

[MikeAD]

WOW...a video message from Hank Aaron..I did not expect that at all.

Nice.

[Sideburns]

Somebody's got Hank at gunpoint reading something!

[ixcuincle]

This was the celebration during the game , that you wouldn't have seen at Petco or Dodgers Stadium. He's finally done it...

Lol Hank Aaron offering his congratulations...he looks sad. For now Bonds will be the king , until A-rod or Pujols takes his place.

[Bosibus]

Haha, Hank Aaron does not seem very sincere.

Almost like he had a gun pointing at him.

[orioles119]

Haha, Hank Aaron does not seem very sincere.

Almost like he had a gun pointing at him.
Is it this guy...

<img src='http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/magazine/03/06/growth0313/t1_anderson.jpg'>

on the end of the gun?

[Sideburns]

I'm glad it was off of Bacsik. I hate him.

[Why Not?]

Hank said everything he needed to say and nothing more. That was perfect.

[shorebird22]

Thank God it's at least over. Check out the flash sequence on the SI.com front page, says it all.

[MikeAD]

Ok, its worth it because I GOT TO SEE TONY BATISTA. Im watching on MASN.

A triple short of hitting for the cycle. I wonder if his old legs could take him to third.

[orioles119]

If there were ever a reason to root for Alex Rodriguez...

[beaner]

Hank said everything he needed to say and nothing more. That was perfect.

Kudos to Henry Aaron for doing that..You know it wasn't easy for him. And shame on Bud Selig. Congrats Barry!! He's the best offensive player I've ever seen, hands down.

[MikeAD]

Is this the least celebrated Baseball record/Milestone ever?

[orioles119]

Kudos to Henry Aaron for doing that..You know it wasn't easy for him. And shame on Bud Selig. Congrats Barry!! He's the best offensive player I've ever seen, hands down.
Shame on Bud?

The commissioner of the sport wasn't at Aaron's record breaking shot either.

[beaner]

Shame on Bud?

The commissioner of the sport wasn't at Aaron's record breaking shot either.

Yeah, shame on Bud...He could've come to San Francisco, there's no reason for him not to be there. I don't care about Bowie Kuhn, that was 33 years ago. Aaron did the right thing, so should've Selig.

Oh and another Kudos to the Bascik for tipping his cap to Bonds as well. Everyone showed a lot of class...I wish more fans around Baseball would too. Unless of course they have the same sort of venom towards Ryan Franklin, Rafael Betancourt, and Juan Salas.

[Why Not?]

Is this the least celebrated Baseball record/Milestone ever?

I think so. It was like they had a ceremony because they HAD to.

[Why Not?]

I'm glad it was off of Bacsik. I hate him.

Really? I can't imagine anything but indifference when it comes to Mike Bacsik.

[MikeAD]

Did you see the mayhem over that ball in the right field stands?

I can't imagine being in that crowd when the ball dropped.

[orioles119]

Yeah, shame on Bud...He could've come to San Francisco, there's no reason for him not to be there. I don't care about Bowie Kuhn, that was 33 years ago. Aaron did the right thing, so should've Selig.

Oh and another Kudos to the Bascik for tipping his cap to Bonds as well. Everyone showed a lot of class...I wish more fans around Baseball would too. Unless of course they have the same sort of venom towards Ryan Franklin, Rafael Betancourt, and Juan Salas.
Franklin, Betancourt, and Salas weren't/aren't chasing the greatest record in sports.

[MikeAD]

I think so. It was like they had a ceremony because they HAD to.

My feelings exactly.

If thats the reaction he got in San Fran, I wonder what he would have gotten in Houston or FL or St Louis etc.

[MikeAD]

They've taken him out and replaced him with Dave Roberts.

Not even really a standing ovation.

To hell with the one-run game, I'd stay in and go for the cycle, its not like the Giants are any where near contention.

Hitting for the Cycle, or even going 4-4 the night you break the record is pretty amazing.

[beaner]

Franklin, Betancourt, and Salas weren't/aren't chasing the greatest record in sports.

Exactly my point, so you'll tolerate cheaters as long as a record isn't being threatened. Come on, Jim, with all due respect, that's a bit hypocritical.

[ixcuincle]

Probably no ceremony at all , but they would have clapped and cheered like they've been doing the last few games he's hit home runs in. I don't think anyone has actually booed him since that Cubs game where he hit 2 home runs...:rolleyes:

An interesting fact I heard today on Canadian radio : 755 had about 1 million TV viewers. In comparison , Glavine's 300th win had around 3 million viewers.

[shorebird22]

Did you see the mayhem over that ball in the right field stands?

I can't imagine being in that crowd when the ball dropped.

I couldn't imagine being the guy who had the ball bounce off his hand and kick to their left. It'd be like your life as a millionaire flashing before your eyes, then coming back to reality.

[Moose Milligan]

I still fail to see why Bud Selig had to be there.

[beaner]

Probably no ceremony at all , but they would have clapped and cheered like they've been doing the last few games he's hit home runs in. I don't think anyone has actually booed him since that Cubs game where he hit 2 home runs...:rolleyes:

An interesting fact I heard today on Canadian radio : 755 had about 1 million TV viewers. In comparison , Glavine's 300th win had around 3 million viewers.

It was a Saturday Night game at 10:00 Eastern, not exactly prime time for TV viewing...

[MikeAD]

I couldn't imagine being the guy who had the ball bounce off his hand and kick to their left. It'd be like your life as a millionaire flashing before your eyes, then coming back to reality.

Its like leaving the winning powerball ticket in your jeans pocket in the washer/dryer..only it's on national telivision.

I just hope nobody got hurt.

[beaner]

I still fail to see why Bud Selig had to be there.

He didn't have to be, but it would have been the right thing to do. He said two weeks ago he would try to do the right thing and be there as much as he could.

[MikeAD]

I still fail to see why Bud Selig had to be there.

He didn't..end of story.

[MikeAD]

Oh god, I wasted my 1000th post on Barry Freaking Bonds. :0

[mweb]

I think so. It was like they had a ceremony because they HAD to.

Are you serious about the ceremony? Those fans love Barry.

[shorebird22]

Its like leaving the winning powerball ticket in your jeans pocket in the washer/dryer..only it's on national telivision.

I just hope nobody got hurt.

The guy with the ball was still getting mauled by the crowd despite a plethora of security escorting him out.

My 2 cents: Ceremony wise; Milestone wise; Anything else wise...

2131>756*

[beaner]

Are you serious about the ceremony? Those fans love Barry.

Thank god someone else said that...I wasn't sure if anyone was watching the same thing I was.

[mweb]

My feelings exactly.

If thats the reaction he got in San Fran, I wonder what he would have gotten in Houston or FL or St Louis etc.

Are you saying that wasn't a great reaction? If so, I gotta disagree. And did you see 755? He got a very good reaction at a division rivals park.

[mweb]

He didn't have to be, but it would have been the right thing to do. He said two weeks ago he would try to do the right thing and be there as much as he could.

Well if he was going to act the same way he did for 755(stand there with his hands in his pockets), then it's probably better he wasn't there.

[mweb]

BTW, big congrats to Barry! I'm actually happy for him.

[Moose Milligan]

He didn't have to be, but it would have been the right thing to do. He said two weeks ago he would try to do the right thing and be there as much as he could.

Why would it have been the right thing to do? Everyone already knows how Selig feels about it. Like he needs to be there to be fake to Barry's face? Please.

[beaner]

Well if he was going to act the same way he did for 755(stand there with his hands in his pockets), then it's probably better he wasn't there.

Great point, that was absurd what he did that night. Like he was looking for the beer vendor or something. I change my stance, it's better that he wasn't there. Good job by Hank Aaron, I didn't expect that. He said it best, celebrate the accomplishment..

[beaner]

Why would it have been the right thing to do? Everyone already knows how Selig feels about it. Like he needs to be there to be fake to Barry's face? Please.

Selig said it himself, those are his words "doing the right thing".. Then he's a bigger hypocrite than the fans that "hate" Bonds but don't pay other users any attention.

[orioles119]

Exactly my point, so you'll tolerate cheaters as long as a record isn't being threatened. Come on, Jim, with all due respect, that's a bit hypocritical.
I'm not tolerating a cheater - it's just amped up a bit when a record like this is being broken.

[MikeAD]

BTW, big congrats to Barry! I'm actually happy for him.

Im happy for HIM to, I figure this is something hes been after for a long time. You know, the record, not winning or championships or any of that all around baseball stuff.

I just want to see where this goes from here, if he really DHs somewhere in the AL next year.

I am really indifferent on the record. It doesn't bother me but it doesnt make me swell up with happiness either. I feel bad for Aaron whenever Bonds talks about racism. Hammerin' Hank had to deal with truely horrendous racism, leaps and bounds over what Bonds has had to deal with.

[EddieO's21]

well barry broke it...and i could care less...Aaron was obviously not sincere in that video message, I actually had to laugh.

And congrats to that NYM fan who caught the ball...sell it, destroy it, hide it, do whatever except give it any respect. Get your million and be done with it. Hank is the all time home run king and always will be in my book, even without the number that says so

[mweb]

Why would it have been the right thing to do? Everyone already knows how Selig feels about it. Like he needs to be there to be fake to Barry's face? Please.

It's basically the commish's duty to be there for something like this imo. He was there for Big Mac's record breaker and he obviously felt it was the right thing to do even for Bonds since he was following him around lately. Hammering Hank at least had the video message, that was nice, and his obligation to do that is less than Selig's. This is the type of thing where the commish should set aside personal feelings.

[beaner]

I'm not tolerating a cheater - it's just amped up a bit when a record like this is being broken.

Fair enough, but the fact remains that Barry is one of hundreds that used steroids, he just happens to be the best. I just am so sick of everyone on their high horse about cheating when they have no problem rooting for cheaters who play or played right here in our city.

[MikeAD]

Fair enough, but the fact remains that Barry is one of hundreds that used steroids, he just happens to be the best. I just am so sick of everyone on their high horse about cheating when they have no problem rooting for cheaters who play or played right here in our city.

I don't hate him for the 'roids, I hate him for being an ass. He is the epitome of a selfish ass, there is no doubt about that.

[orioles119]

Fair enough, but the fact remains that Barry is one of hundreds that used steroids, he just happens to be the best. I just am so sick of everyone on their high horse about cheating when they have no problem rooting for cheaters who play or played right here in our city.
I don't want to go down this road, but other than Palmeiro - there hasn't been an Oriole caught to this date.

[orioles119]

I don't hate him for the 'roids, I hate him for being an ass. He is the epitome of a selfish ass, there is no doubt about that.
The roids and the tude make him one of the most unlikeable individuals in sports, let alone the public spotlight altogether.

[EddieO's21]

Fair enough, but the fact remains that Barry is one of hundreds that used steroids, he just happens to be the best. I just am so sick of everyone on their high horse about cheating when they have no problem rooting for cheaters who play or played right here in our city.

oh beaner we are at it again...don't lump everyone in this talk, I hate palmeiro and anyone who has used that stuff, hundreds have used it sure, does it make it right or valid???????? NOOOOOOO

He used steroids to GET THE RECORD!! It helped him achieve his greatness. For goodness sakes, a syringe made him what he is and were celebrating it?!?!?!? Someone has to pour hot coffee on my face to make me see what you guys are saying. My kids will forever know the names of ruth, robinson, mantle, ripken, aaron, and mays, but Bonds will never enter the conversation

[beaner]

I don't hate him for the 'roids, I hate him for being an ass. He is the epitome of a selfish ass, there is no doubt about that.

Absolutely, and I truly believe that that's a lot of the hate for many people. He's a total pompous ass, but as I've said in a few threads already, celebrate the accomplishment, not the man. If a "Fun loving" type guy was going for the record, even with the steroids suspicion, there wouldn't be as much backlash.

[mweb]

Im happy for HIM to, I figure this is something hes been after for a long time. You know, the record, not winning or championships or any of that all around baseball stuff.

I just want to see where this goes from here, if he really DHs somewhere in the AL next year.

I am really indifferent on the record. It doesn't bother me but it doesnt make me swell up with happiness either. I feel bad for Aaron whenever Bonds talks about racism. Hammerin' Hank had to deal with truely horrendous racism, leaps and bounds over what Bonds has had to deal with.

Cheap shot, and not accurate imo. I think he wanted to win more than most, and his play certainly helped his team win a lot of games. He was very close to carrying a not so great team to a WS title not that long ago, and he played great in that series.

And if racism is still going on, and I think it is, is a minority not supposed to talk about it because it's not as bad as it was? There were people in Hank's time who had to deal with much more racism than he did, do you think they were upset that he was talking about it, or happy that he was shedding more light on the problem?

[MikeAD]

I don't want to go down this road, but other than Palmeiro - there hasn't been an Oriole caught to this date.

We've had some minor leaguers caught though..Gary Cates Jr, I think there were others that I don't remember. I would still root for Raffy to this day, I love that guy, but I stopped cheering for Cates the second he got caught.

[beaner]

oh beaner we are at it again...don't lump everyone in this talk, I hate palmeiro and anyone who has used that stuff, hundreds have used it sure, does it make it right or valid???????? NOOOOOOO

He used steroids to GET THE RECORD!! It helped him achieve his greatness. For goodness sakes, a syringe made him what he is and were celebrating it?!?!?!? Someone has to pour hot coffee on my face to make me see what you guys are saying. My kids will forever know the names of ruth, robinson, mantle, ripken, aaron, and mays, but Bonds will never enter the conversation

I don't mean to lump everyone, I just hate that Bonds is the poster boy for this when he just happens to be the best. I'm not disputing any of what you are saying, don't misunderstand.

[MikeAD]

Cheap shot, and not accurate imo. I think he wanted to win more than most, and his play certainly helped his team win a lot of games. He was very close to carrying a not so great team to a WS title not that long ago, and he played great in that series.

And if racism is still going on, and I think it is, is a minority not supposed to talk about it because it's not as bad as it was? There were people in Hank's time who had to deal with much more racism than he did, do you think they were upset that he was talking about it, or happy that he was shedding more light on the problem?

I agree with you on the World Series team, Dusty Baker's Giants. I was just talking about that team today. That team talentwise had no business being in the World Series and he was AWESOME that whole postseason.

[orioles119]

We've had some minor leaguers caught though..Gary Cates Jr, I think there were others that I don't remember. I would still root for Raffy to this day, I love that guy, but I stopped cheering for Cates the second he got caught.
Okay... so it's okay to be lied to all that time?

[mweb]

Oh, and that was a shot by Barry, he crushed it. One could argue that it's unfair for Barry to have to play in park that is so difficult to hit HR's in.;)

[beaner]

I don't want to go down this road, but other than Palmeiro - there hasn't been an Oriole caught to this date.

Yes, but there are a few that we can all agree on. No need to go down that road, I agree, but we also can't be blind to it.

[mweb]

I agree with you on the World Series team, Dusty Baker's Giants. I was just talking about that team today. That team talentwise had no business being in the World Series and he was AWESOME that whole postseason.

Well it's not his fault the team isn't good now. He's still been one of the most productive offensive players in baseball this year.

[EddieO's21]

I don't mean to lump everyone, I just hate that Bonds is the poster boy for this when he just happens to be the best. I'm not disputing any of what you are saying, don't misunderstand.

ok...i guess what I am saying is that how can anyone celebrate something that was attained through being a cheater. A liar!!!

Let me ask this, should I tell my nieces and nephews that you can do anything as long as your the best. Beat every record...cheat. Thats all that matters. Step over everyone for your own greatness. I can and will never do that. Baseball is too good for some piece of trash like this too. He can take his record and his HR's and leave the game...forever

[mweb]

Yes, but there are a few that we can all agree on. No need to go down that road, I agree, but we also can't be blind to it.

And most cheered for Big Mac when he broke the record, and even if you weren't sure he was using steroids, I think you had to be skeptical.

[MikeAD]

Okay... so it's okay to be lied to all that time?

No Im not defending Raffy, Im just saying I like the guy. I would never boo him or any of the sorts, similar to how Barry has it in San Fran.

[EddieO's21]

No Im not defending Raffy, Im just saying I like the guy. I would never boo him or any of the sorts, similar to how Barry has it in San Fran.

I'd boo him right along with barry and every other...they all deserve it

[beaner]

ok...i guess what I am saying is that how can anyone celebrate something that was attained through being a cheater. A liar!!!

Let me ask this, should I tell my nieces and nephews that you can do anything as long as your the best. Beat every record...cheat. Thats all that matters. Step over everyone for your own greatness. I can and will never do that. Baseball is too good for some piece of trash like this too. He can take his record and his HR's and leave the game...forever

And as I told you the other night, I respect your opinion and absolutely see where you're coming from. I just think that the accomplishment deserves the repsect. I'm not saying he didn't take steroids. I'm just enjoying the moment. He's an ass who took PED's, yes, I'm not denying that. But he's a hell of a baseball player who, like it or not, is the all time Home Run king.

[mweb]

ok...i guess what I am saying is that how can anyone celebrate something that was attained through being a cheater. A liar!!!

Let me ask this, should I tell my nieces and nephews that you can do anything as long as your the best. Beat every record...cheat. Thats all that matters. Step over everyone for your own greatness. I can and will never do that. Baseball is too good for some piece of trash like this too. He can take his record and his HR's and leave the game...forever

Is it really cheating when MLB was basically encouraging it, and certainly doing nothing to stop it?

[MikeAD]

For some reason I've never ever liked Barry Bonds. Im in my twenties now and growing up it was all about Griffey Jr (as far as non-Birds go) and Ryne Sandberg. I don't know how it was for everyone else, but I don't think he ever had the wide-spread admiration that he "deserved." But that has been said plenty of times, so Im just reiterating.

[EddieO's21]

From the polished words of Henry Aaron:

I would like to offer my congratulations to Barry Bonds on becoming baseball's greatest cheater. It is a great accomplishment which required skill, longevity and determination.

Throughout the past century, the lies have held a special place in baseball, and I have been privileged to witness this disgrace over the past decade. I move over now and offer my best wishes to Barry and his family on this historic achievement.

My hope today is that this will inspire others wake up and realize how this record is forever tainted. Congratulations Barry...you deserve it ."

[EddieO's21]

Is it really cheating when MLB was basically encouraging it, and certainly doing nothing to stop it?

absolutely...i couldn't say that loud enough. They are ALL at fault. That makes it even worse

[beaner]

absolutely...i couldn't say that loud enough. They are ALL at fault. That makes it even worse

We agree on that...They could've stopped this years ago.

[DT undercover]

They just mentioned that Bonds took a call from Selig. At least he showed him some respect, wonder what was said?

[EddieO's21]

They just mentioned that Bonds took a call from Selig. At least he showed him some respect, wonder what was said?

well i could make a joke here or make an inference to what was really said...man all the choices :rolleyes:

[orioles119]

We agree on that...They could've stopped this years ago.
They weren't going to do it though... they want to pin the home run chase of 1998 to "saving baseball", because the chase brought many many fans that were still bitter about the strike back to the game.

It was all for naught though, as the fans woke up to the problem that was at hand. Noone was willing to do anything about it because of the money it brought it.

That was until two former MVPs, Ken Caminit and Jose Canseco, decided to voice their experiences in the game and the illegalities that they witnessed and took part in.

[orioles119]

They just mentioned that Bonds took a call from Selig. At least he showed him some respect, wonder what was said?
<img src='http://www.chiensderace.com/images/cliparts/droopy.gif'>

[mweb]

absolutely...i couldn't say that loud enough. They are ALL at fault. That makes it even worse

Yes, they're all at fault, but I wouldn't really call it cheating for the reason I already mentioned, plus it's not like the clean players did anything to stop it either.

[mweb]

They just mentioned that Bonds took a call from Selig. At least he showed him some respect, wonder what was said?

Yeah, that's nice, but he should have been there or at least had a video message.

[Moose Milligan]

Selig's just as responsible for the 'roid rampage in MLB as anyone else...on 2nd thought, he should have been there to congratulate his creation tonite.

[BaltimoreTerp]

They weren't going to do it though... they want to pin the home run chase of 1998 to "saving baseball", because the chase brought many many fans that were still bitter about the strike back to the game.

Game of Shadows (or at least the author) says that was when Bonds told Griffey that he was going to start on PEDs because he was sick of the cheaters getting the attention.

Sportscenter was just doing some sort of random comment montage about Bonds, and one of those commenting was Fay Vincent. Every time I see him, I get so pissed off that he is not the commissioner (or wasn't after 1992) because of Bud's coup d'etat.

That does not, however, absolve the individual decision of Bonds to take whatever he took. He had the choice, and made the wrong one. Personally, I do not believe he is getting enough true scorn for his lack of achievement.

So, in honor of what he did tonight, I offer in the same spirit of how he has treated the fans of the sport through his attitude and his actions a hearty, "Up yours, a------."

[orioles119]

Game of Shadows (or at least the author) says that was when Bonds told Griffey that he was going to start on PEDs because he was sick of the cheaters getting the attention.

Let me get this straight... Bonds was sick of the cheaters, so he became one himself??? Umm... okay.... :rolleyes:

[mweb]

That does not, however, absolve the individual decision of Bonds to take whatever he took. He had the choice, and made the wrong one.

One can easily make the argument that he made the right choice given the circumstances. Not morally, but as far as what was best for him and the Giants, that argument is there.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Let me get this straight... Bonds was sick of the cheaters, so he became one himself??? Umm... okay.... :rolleyes:

No, he was sick of the attention they were getting by cheating, and probably because it looked unlikely they would get caught.

One of the authors said on ESPNews that he saw them getting the attention while his 500th home run (which came in 1998) got just this side of none, and was ticked.

[BaltimoreTerp]

One can easily make the argument that he made the right choice given the circumstances. Not morally, but as far as what was best for him and the Giants, that argument is there.

He has no chance of having a real rest of his life because of that decision.

The Giants have got several years of terrible publicity, while not being able to part ways because he is all they have.

He was already the best player in baseball; he didn't have to cheat.

Pete Rose was a baseball legend with a future secure; he didn't have to gamble.

[El Gordo]

Babe Ruth hit 20 HR's the first 5 years of his career when he was primarily a pitcher. Assuming he would have averaged only 20 per year as an OF those 5 years, instead of the 46 per he actually averaged as an OF he would have hit 814 and Barry Bonds would be regarded as a silly old man who used steroids to try to catch a record well out of his reach.

[mweb]

He has no chance of having a real rest of his life because of that decision.

The Giants have got several years of terrible publicity, while not being able to part ways because he is all they have.

He was already the best player in baseball; he didn't have to cheat.

Pete Rose was a baseball legend with a future secure; he didn't have to gamble.

Why can't he have a real rest of his life?

Terrible publicity? Not really, they've sold out a ton of tickets home and away due to him, Bonds is loved in SF, and every team has had many steroid users play for them, I don't see how he has negatively affected them.

Of course he didn't have to used steroids, but that has nothing to do with this being a good or bad personal decision.

He's made millions of extra dollars, helped his team win a lot more games, is now the hr king and one of the top 3 players ever, those are all huge positives. He was already disliked, now he's disliked more. His reputation is certainly hurt. Now the major question to me is how what he's done affects his body. If it doesn't do much damage, the positives will probably outweigh the negatives, especially considering what other players were doing and how MLB treated the "problem" during this era.

[mweb]

Babe Ruth hit 20 HR's the first 5 years of his career when he was primarily a pitcher. Assuming he would have averaged only 20 per year as an OF those 5 years, instead of the 46 per he actually averaged as an OF he would have hit 814 anf Barry Bonds would be regarded as a silly old man who used steroids to try to catch a record well out of his reach.

I don't think he took steroids with the intent of becoming the hr king, but maybe it was in the back of his mind.

[Why Not?]

Are you serious about the ceremony? Those fans love Barry.

No doubt the fans were cheering. But the actual ceremony was sort of ho-hum. Stop the game, Aaron statement, a few words, then play ball. It just seemed perfunctory.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Why can't he have a real rest of his life?

Because he is now known in the public as a cheat. Worse, an unapologetic cheat with a severe attitude problem. He's likely to be indicted at some point, and all that put together gives him no chance at media work or anything that makes people want to care about him.

Just look at Pete Rose.

[Why Not?]

I don't mean to lump everyone, I just hate that Bonds is the poster boy for this when he just happens to be the best. I'm not disputing any of what you are saying, don't misunderstand.

It's hypocritical to be sure. I think most guys used steroids to get through an injury or maybe to put on some weight in an offseason or two. But Bonds just went balls out on the stuff. I mean, he totally balooned into a giant monster home run hitter.

My logic is probably wrong here, but I feel like Bonds is a serial killer in a world of shoplifters.

[mweb]

No doubt the fans were cheering. But the actual ceremony was sort of ho-hum. Stop the game, Aaron statement, a few words, then play ball. It just seemed perfunctory.

You said it seemed like they had the ceremony because they had to, I don't see any reasons to think that, nor does your post provide any.

As far as being ho-hum, eh, the Aaron statement was nice, he hugged, high fived all his teammates, his family came out on the field and embraced him, Willie Mays came out and embraced him, and then looked as though he was going to talk, not sure what happened there, then Barry gave his speech. It was a relatively short speech, but that was his choice, I'm sure he could have gone on for longer. Plus they had a ton of fireworks going, the banners by the scoreboard, and the changing of the hr leaderboard in right. What else should they have done?

[Why Not?]

You said it seemed like they had the ceremony because they had to, I don't see any reasons to think that, nor does your post provide any.

As far as being ho-hum, eh, the Aaron statement was nice, he hugged, high fived all his teammates, his family came out on the field and embraced him, Willie Mays came out and embraced him, and then looked as though he was going to talk, not sure what happened there, then Barry gave his speech. It was a relatively short speech, but that was his choice, I'm sure he could have gone on for longer. Plus they had a ton of fireworks going, the banners by the scoreboard, and the changing of the hr leaderboard in right. What else should they have done?

I don't know what else they could or should have done. It's just the impression I got watching it.

[mweb]

Because he is now known in the public as a cheat. Worse, an unapologetic cheat with a severe attitude problem. He's likely to be indicted at some point, and all that put together gives him no chance at media work or anything that makes people want to care about him.

Just look at Pete Rose.

Well if he's indicted and goes to jail, that changes my opinion.

Yeah, being known as a cheat isn't ideal, but I think he'll survive with it, he's never been liked outside of SF or Pitt when he was there, and it doesn't seem as if he cares that much about it.

What type of media work do you thing he would want to do? Or what's this anything that would make people want to care about him?

What about Pete Rose? If he was in the HOF, he'd be happy(he may be anyway), I think Bonds will be in the HOF. And the two situations aren't really comparable. BTW, how do fans treat Rose? Pretty well I'd say.

[mweb]

It's hypocritical to be sure. I think most guys used steroids to get through an injury or maybe to put on some weight in an offseason or two. But Bonds just went balls out on the stuff. I mean, he totally balooned into a giant monster home run hitter.

My logic is probably wrong here, but I feel like Bonds is a serial killer in a world of shoplifters.

I disagree with that. I think most that used steroids used them quite a bit. Maybe Bonds had better steroids than most, and he probably worked harder than most. The guy was/is obsessed with baseball and being the best he can be.

[DrungoHazewood]

Babe Ruth hit 20 HR's the first 5 years of his career when he was primarily a pitcher. Assuming he would have averaged only 20 per year as an OF those 5 years, instead of the 46 per he actually averaged as an OF he would have hit 814 and Barry Bonds would be regarded as a silly old man who used steroids to try to catch a record well out of his reach.

Ruth also played in a league that was substantially weaker than the one Bonds has played in, so you can probably discount his homers by a 10% or 15% because of that. He also played in the Polo Grounds for several years, which had a 250-ft right field line (Mel Ott, playing in the same park, hit nearly 75% of his 500+ career homers at home), then moved to Yankee Stadium with a 296-ft right field line, so you can discount some number of homers on top of that.

[SouthernBird]

One can easily make the argument that he made the right choice given the circumstances. Not morally, but as far as what was best for him and the Giants, that argument is there.
Using that logic I could make an argument that robbing a bank and killing the teller is the best choice for my family. After all, we could use the money.

THe guy is a cheater, and worse than that a liar. Not to mention he is one of the most surly a-holes inthe game. Screw Barry Bands, and his tainted record.

[DrungoHazewood]

It's hypocritical to be sure. I think most guys used steroids to get through an injury or maybe to put on some weight in an offseason or two. But Bonds just went balls out on the stuff. I mean, he totally balooned into a giant monster home run hitter.

My logic is probably wrong here, but I feel like Bonds is a serial killer in a world of shoplifters.

You have absolutely no evidence of that at all. I think people don't like Barry Bonds as a person, and find it easy to call him the real heavy in this situation because of that. As far as real evidence goes Alex Sanchez and Neifi Perez could be more hardcore abusers than Bonds.

[Mark Carver]

Babe Ruth hit 20 HR's the first 5 years of his career when he was primarily a pitcher. Assuming he would have averaged only 20 per year as an OF those 5 years, instead of the 46 per he actually averaged as an OF he would have hit 814 and Barry Bonds would be regarded as a silly old man who used steroids to try to catch a record well out of his reach.

On a side note since you mentioned him... an interesting book on the Bambino.

The Year Babe Ruth Hit 104 Home Runs: Recrowning Baseball's Greatest Slugger (http://www.amazon.com/Year-Babe-Ruth-Home-Runs/dp/0786719060/ref=sr_1_1/002-4627458-5750448?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186577555&sr=8-1)


In this exhaustively researched examination of Babe Ruth's storied career, Jenkinson argues that the Bambino was the greatest slugger of all time, not Barry Bonds, not Sammy Sosa, not Hank Aaron, and not Roger Maris. To make his point, he approaches Ruth from three perspectives. First, he discusses and analyzes Ruth's historic batting power, relying on original newspaper accounts. Second, he examines Ruth's "hidden" career of about 800 exhibition games. Third, he does a degree-of-difficulty analysis between the various conditions (equipment, medical sophistication, and press scrutiny, among other factors) Ruth experienced and those of sluggers in other eras. For example, Ruth injured a knee early in his career, and it was a recurring problem. It would have been easily repaired with modern medicine. Current conventional sports wisdom holds modern athletes are bigger, faster, stronger, and therefore better. Here we have the carefully researched, imaginatively argued contrary position. Great reading for any baseball fan, but especially those whose passions are ignited by comparisons of players from different eras. Wes Lukowsky Copyright © American Library Association. All rights reserved

[Mackus]

I still feel that pitchers benefit far more from steroid use than hitters. Maybe if Bonds nor the pitchers were taking steroids he would have even more HRs at this point.

I still don't really care about steroids. I don't even like the term "performance enhancing drug". Steroids don't improve your performance. They improve your strength and recovery. That translates to faster bat speed, less DL time, and a few other things, but its not like a crappy baseball player can shoot up some juice and become a good player. The guys that are getting stronger from steroids are still putting in tons of time towards getting stronger the old-fashioned way.

I guess its just a matter of scale to me. The names of this era are never going to match up to the names of the past, the numbers are secondary to the names for me, which is probably why I'm not very outraged by the entire situation.

[Sports Guy]

Good for him.

I am glad he did it...I am glad he did it at home and and i am glad it is over.

[geschinger]

My fellow Americans, our long national nightmare is over.

I thought the hoopla was impressive as is the record itself - enhanced by cheating or not. His ability to square up a baseball which I don't think is necessarily enhanced by PEDs is the best I've ever seen.

But I am thankful its finally over.

[rolliefingers]

Fair enough, but the fact remains that Barry is one of hundreds that used steroids, he just happens to be the best. I just am so sick of everyone on their high horse about cheating when they have no problem rooting for cheaters who play or played right here in our city.

I disowned Palmeiro when he was found to have cheated. I fully believe that Gibbons juiced. I don't know about anyone else, but to me, there's no double-standard. I hate Bonds, Sosa and McGwire for the same reason.

[BustaJ2632]

No, he was sick of the attention they were getting by cheating, and probably because it looked unlikely they would get caught.

One of the authors said on ESPNews that he saw them getting the attention while his 500th home run (which came in 1998) got just this side of none, and was ticked.

Bonds hit his 500th home run early in his 73 HR season, not 1998...

[BustaJ2632]

No doubt the fans were cheering. But the actual ceremony was sort of ho-hum. Stop the game, Aaron statement, a few words, then play ball. It just seemed perfunctory.

Granted we live in the Land of Cal, but I think that it's best to not delay the game any more than necessary. The ceremony was very nice and the fans' reactions, as far as I could tell, were absolutely heartfelt. I was very happy to see Hank on the videoboard, and I think his statements were indeed sincere. He may be rooting for A-Rod now, but as one of the greatest players in the history of the game, he knows that it took the skill, strength, and determination he spoke of to break this record. Steroids, I believe, played a much smaller role than many people are willing to admit.

And maybe the reaction was different if you woke up this morning to the news, but if you are a baseball fan and you didn't get chills watching that home run as it happened, hearing Dave O'Brien and Jon Miller's calls, seeing Willie Mays on the field embracing Barry, seeing Hank on the scoreboard, seeing Barry swell up with emotion thanking his teammates, the fans, his family, and his father......well I don't know what to say to you except you missed out on a wonderful moment.

[EddieO's21]

I disowned Palmeiro when he was found to have cheated. I fully believe that Gibbons juiced. I don't know about anyone else, but to me, there's no double-standard. I hate Bonds, Sosa and McGwire for the same reason.

at least someone has some sense in them :rolleyes:

[beaner]

I disowned Palmeiro when he was found to have cheated. I fully believe that Gibbons juiced. I don't know about anyone else, but to me, there's no double-standard. I hate Bonds, Sosa and McGwire for the same reason.

You think Gibbons juiced? ;) Like we said earlier, not to go down that road, but he clearly wasn't the only Oriole that has been involved in this.

[bobmc]

Granted we live in the Land of Cal, but I think that it's best to not delay the game any more than necessary. The ceremony was very nice and the fans' reactions, as far as I could tell, were absolutely heartfelt. I was very happy to see Hank on the videoboard, and I think his statements were indeed sincere. He may be rooting for A-Rod now, but as one of the greatest players in the history of the game, he knows that it took the skill, strength, and determination he spoke of to break this record. Steroids, I believe, played a much smaller role than many people are willing to admit.

And maybe the reaction was different if you woke up this morning to the news, but if you are a baseball fan and you didn't get chills watching that home run as it happened, hearing Dave O'Brien and Jon Miller's calls, seeing Willie Mays on the field embracing Barry, seeing Hank on the scoreboard, seeing Barry swell up with emotion thanking his teammates, the fans, his family, and his father......well I don't know what to say to you except you missed out on a wonderful moment.

Dang! I missed it.....but I did see Willie play live at the Polo Grounds! The Jints tore my heart out when they split for the coast those many years (nearly fifty) ago. I was just out there and drove by the AT&T Stadium. I have closure now.

[beaner]

Dang! I missed it.....but I did see Willie play live at the Polo Grounds! The Jints tore my heart out when they split for the coast those many years (nearly fifty) ago. I was just out there and drove by the AT&T Stadium. I have closure now.

It really was a great moment to watch. In my eyes, it's really unfortunate that people had so much disdain while watching. The funny thing is that so many people that "hate" Bonds still felt compelled to watch. Like the fans in San Diego who booed him as he came to the plate, but cheered after he hit 755. It's all very weird, and like many have said, whether you support the record or not, I'm glad it's over.

Mike Bascik handled this great by the way..First off, he actually pitched to Bonds, unlike so many during this chase. He tipped his cap to him, and after the game got his autograph and spent some time hanging out with Barry and his family. He seemed as happy about being involved as anyone.

[BustaJ2632]

It really was a great moment to watch. In my eyes, it's really unfortunate that people had so much disdain while watching. The funny thing is that so many people that "hate" Bonds still felt compelled to watch. Like the fans in San Diego who booed him as he came to the plate, but cheered after he hit 755. It's all very weird, and like many have said, whether you support the record or not, I'm glad it's over.

Well yeah, I can actually go to bed before 12AM now. If Barry were, say, still a Pirate, I'd be all for this sort of event television for the rest of the season ;)

[rolliefingers]

at least someone has some sense in them :rolleyes:

I don't understand what this post means. Are you being sarcastic?

[geschinger]

It really was a great moment to watch. In my eyes, it's really unfortunate that people had so much disdain while watching. The funny thing is that so many people that "hate" Bonds still felt compelled to watch. Like the fans in San Diego who booed him as he came to the plate, but cheered after he hit 755. It's all very weird, and like many have said, whether you support the record or not, I'm glad it's over.

I agree, it was a great moment to watch. I have disdain for Bonds the person and I don't think it's unfortunate that others do as well as is certainly self inflicted. But for me at least the acheivement is huge even if I can't stand the achiever. I have been staying up late every night and been miserable the next day suffering bouts of incoherence (as evident in some of my posts :) ) from being over tired to make sure I was able to see the record broken. I did not want to miss it. Thanfully it's over and I can get some sleep again.

[BustaJ2632]

I also want to thank Bruce Bochy for taking Barry out in the 7th on Monday night so I could get an extra half hour-45 minutes of sleep, thus allowing me to still be conscious when he hit in yesterday.

[beaner]

I agree, it was a great moment to watch. I have disdain for Bonds the person and I don't think it's unfortunate that others do as well as is certainly self inflicted. But for me at least the acheivement is huge even if I can't stand the achiever. I have been staying up late every night and been miserable the next day suffering bouts of incoherence (as evident in some of my posts :) ) from being over tired to make sure I was able to see the record broken. I did not want to miss it. Thanfully it's over and I can get some sleep again.

Well said, I don't like Bonds as a person either, but really wanted to see this record broken. I know I've said this before as others have as well, but I truly believe that people's hatred for Bonds as a person really skewed their views on the Home Run chase, steroids or no steroids. He was a jerk long before the steroid suspicion. Enjoy your sleep brother..

[bobmc]

It really was a great moment to watch. In my eyes, it's really unfortunate that people had so much disdain while watching. The funny thing is that so many people that "hate" Bonds still felt compelled to watch. Like the fans in San Diego who booed him as he came to the plate, but cheered after he hit 755. It's all very weird, and like many have said, whether you support the record or not, I'm glad it's over.

Mike Bascik handled this great by the way..First off, he actually pitched to Bonds, unlike so many during this chase. He tipped his cap to him, and after the game got his autograph and spent some time hanging out with Barry and his family. He seemed as happy about being involved as anyone.

And as irony played out, Bascik's father, a Ranger's RH, actually pitched to Hammerin' Henry on 8/23/76 and prevented Hank from hitting numero 756. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/08/AR2007080800120.html?sub=AR) The Rangers had earlier fled from DC, changing the name from Senators to Rangers - more irony.

The final irony for me was the fact that a New Yawker retrieved the ball bringing my closure back even more. "The teeming scrum of humanity in the stands where the ball landed finally parted to reveal the ball -- itself an object of obsession, not to mention potential riches -- in the hands of a man identified as Matt Murphy, 22, of Queens, N.Y. (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2007/08/08/2007-08-08_kid_from_queens_catch_of_lifetime.html)Accordin g to Giants officials, Murphy merely was stopping over in San Francisco on his way to a vacation in Australia, and had purchased his ticket (face value: $13) outside the gates on the day of the game." I was living in Queens, NY when the Giants departed to SF in 1957. :mad:

Hallelujah! Even though they tore my heart out, I still love the orange and black - although now it's moreso the Orioles. I actually had contemplated going to AT&T to see the new stadium and Bonds versus the Marlins when I was in NorCal recently. The price of the tickets turned me off.

[beaner]

And as irony played out, Bascik's father, a Ranger's RH, actually pitched to Hammerin' Henry on 8/23/76 and prevented Hank from hitting numero 756. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/08/AR2007080800120.html?sub=AR) The Rangers had earlier fled from DC, changing the name from Senators to Rangers - more irony.

The final irony for me was the fact that a New Yawker retrieved the ball bringing my closure back even more. "The teeming scrum of humanity in the stands where the ball landed finally parted to reveal the ball -- itself an object of obsession, not to mention potential riches -- in the hands of a man identified as Matt Murphy, 22, of Queens, N.Y. (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2007/08/08/2007-08-08_kid_from_queens_catch_of_lifetime.html)Accordin g to Giants officials, Murphy merely was stopping over in San Francisco on his way to a vacation in Australia, and had purchased his ticket (face value: $13) outside the gates on the day of the game." I was living in Queens, NY when the Giants departed to SF in 1957. :mad:

Hallelujah! Even though they tore my heart out, I still love the orange and black - although now it's moreso the Orioles. I actually had contemplated going to AT&T to see the new stadium and Bonds versus the Marlins when I was in NorCal recently. The price of the tickets turned me off.

Unbelievable, the guy was passing through, good for him I guess. Talk about being at the right place at the right time.

We visited San Fran the first week the "new" park was open in 2000 I think, but couldn't get a ticket. It looks like a great place on TV. I never had a problem with Giants until October of 1989 when they just destroyed my poor baby Cubs in the NLCS. Will Clark literally hit .675 in that series. The Cubbies had no answer for him, but I digress.

I still feel that way about the Colts, they tore my heart out, but i can't help but still root for them. As much as I would like to, I still can't get attached to the Ravens.

[RShack]

Ruth also played in a league that was substantially weaker than the one Bonds has played in, so you can probably discount his homers by a 10% or 15% because of that. He also played in the Polo Grounds for several years, which had a 250-ft right field line (Mel Ott, playing in the same park, hit nearly 75% of his 500+ career homers at home), then moved to Yankee Stadium with a 296-ft right field line, so you can discount some number of homers on top of that.
There's a stat I wish we had, but we don't: Dingers per hittable pitch.

My impression is that Bonds is off-the-charts re: other players I have seen. I wish I knew how Bonds and Ruth compared on this mythical-stat.

[orioles119]

There's a stat I wish we had, but we don't: Dingers per hittable pitch.

My impression is that Bonds is off-the-charts re: other players I have seen. I wish I knew how Bonds and Ruth compared on this mythical-stat.
Well that would be impossible to track.

[RShack]

Well that would be impossible to track.
Which is why I called it "mythical" ;-)

[MikeAD]

One thing to add, I know we all say we don't like Bonds, but I wonder how we would act if we were in the stadium last night.

I was in Citzen's Bank Park the night he hit 713 and I remember talking crap the whole way to the game about how I wouldn't cheer, wouldn't clap blah blah blah.

Then he hit it, and along with everyone else I jumped up and cheered like a 12 year old girl in front of the Backstreet Boys. Ended up high fiving a fellow Italian in the row in front of me from New Jersey.

I don't know...maybe it was just because Sal Fasano was on the field.

[tywright]

I have a "friend" who argues that every player since 1988 should be looked at as a possible steroid user and that it is unfair to single out Bonds. He goes on to give examples that how could we know if Cal took steroids especially since he was able to pplay 2632 consecutive games. I can't even argue with him because I'm so incredulous.

[RayFink1e]

Everyone needs to put themselves in Barry's shoes. If you had all these reporters following you, trying to get some sort of controversy started, how would you act? And he grew up in baseball, he knows from his father what reporters are after. I dont blame him for hating the media. And most baseball players seem to like Barry. Thats how I look at it.

If Bonds wasnt walked so many times, he would of crushed at least 80 HR's. Ive never seen or heard of any player being as locked in as he was at the plate. If you threw one good pitch, he crushed it. It was amazing. He basically carried his team to the World Series. And dominated that. plus he told Peter Gammons he was gonna hit a HR off K-Rod, and he did.

[Mark Carver]

Everyone needs to put themselves in Barry's shoes. If you had all these reporters following you, trying to get some sort of controversy started, how would you act? And he grew up in baseball, he knows from his father what reporters are after. I dont blame him for hating the media. And most baseball players seem to like Barry. Thats how I look at it.

If Bonds wasnt walked so many times, he would of crushed at least 80 HR's. Ive never seen or heard of any player being as locked in as he was at the plate. If you threw one good pitch, he crushed it. It was amazing. He basically carried his team to the World Series. And dominated that. plus he told Peter Gammons he was gonna hit a HR off K-Rod, and he did.

There are other father/son baseball players examples, and not every single one of them portray themselves in the like of Bonds. Griffey Jr was at the ballpark and use to run around the clubhouse when his father player.

Well, we don't know how many players actually like Bonds, what we do know is that he has opted out of the MLBPA licensing program, the first player ever to do so in it's 30-year history at the time.

[RayFink1e]

There are other father/son baseball players examples, and not every single one of them portray themselves in the like of Bonds. Griffey Jr was at the ballpark and use to run around the clubhouse when his father player.

Well, we don't know how many players actually like Bonds, what we do know is that he has opted out of the MLBPA licensing program, the first player ever to do so in it's 30-year history at the time.


There dads werent Bobby Bonds. His dad was a very controversial guy for his time. He got ripped by the media. I havent seen a player say anything really negative towards Bonds. Hell, Arod is more disliked it seems. Bonds seemed to be the man at the All Star game. All the players were gravitating towards him.


Barry Bonds and the media are not the best of friends. In the late 60's and early 70's a very young Barry watched his father Bobby Bonds get roasted by some of the same reporters on the beat today.

Newspapers all over the country misquoted and abused the senior Bonds. Bobby spoke his mind and that's a no-no in America. Bobby had a severe drinking problem and the San Francisco sports beat writers printed some harsh articles.

Obviously Barry's childhood experiences with the media have influenced Barry Bonds the man today. He is tight lipped, passive-aggressive, and at times belligerent. Barry does not trust the press nor should he.

http://www.blackathlete.net/artman2/publish/Commentary_1/Bonds_MLB_The_Media_And_American_Rage.shtml

[DrungoHazewood]

I have a "friend" who argues that every player since 1988 should be looked at as a possible steroid user and that it is unfair to single out Bonds. He goes on to give examples that how could we know if Cal took steroids especially since he was able to pplay 2632 consecutive games. I can't even argue with him because I'm so incredulous.

You can't argue with him because he's right. We simply can't know who used and who didn't aside from those with direct evidence that they did.

Like I said earlier, maybe in this thread, maybe in another: There are only two types of ballplayers - those who failed a test and definitely used, and those who are unknowns.

[Mark Carver]

You can't argue with him because he's right. We simply can't know who used and who didn't aside from those with direct evidence that they did.

Like I said earlier, maybe in this thread, maybe in another: There are only two types of ballplayers - those who failed a test and definitely used, and those who are unknowns.

Where does Bonds fit in? An admitted, all be it, "unknowingly" who took steroids, so he says. Grand jury testimony was leaked that he took it/used and the lawyer who leaked is going to spend 2.5 years in jail.

[RayFink1e]

I find this funny. The writers of the Game of Shadows werent even baseball writers. Basically they just used Bonds for their own personal gain. I hope when Barry retires he hires someone to write a book on all these sportswriters and gets people to dig. Then publishes it.

[Cokeman]

One thing to add, I know we all say we don't like Bonds, but I wonder how we would act if we were in the stadium last night.

I was in Citzen's Bank Park the night he hit 713 and I remember talking crap the whole way to the game about how I wouldn't cheer, wouldn't clap blah blah blah.

Then he hit it, and along with everyone else I jumped up and cheered like a 12 year old girl in front of the Backstreet Boys. Ended up high fiving a fellow Italian in the row in front of me from New Jersey.

I don't know...maybe it was just because Sal Fasano was on the field.

I would react the same way I said I would if ARod had hit his 500th at OPACY...I'd stand and clap, recognize the achievement, but I definitely wouldn't be cheering and going crazy...and absolutely no high-fives.

[Mark Carver]

I find this funny. The writers of the Game of Shadows werent even baseball writers. Basically they just used Bonds for their own personal gain. I hope when Barry retires he hires someone to write a book on all these sportswriters and gets people to dig. Then publishes it.

Huh? They are and were investigative reporters for the SF Chronicle newspaper. They were investigating steroids in all sports. They didn't single out and target Barry Bonds. Jezzz.... :rolleyes:


In the course of their investigative research, Williams and Fainaru-Wada were the first to report that:

* track star Marion Jones purportedly received illegal drugs from the steroid supplier BALCO (Jones has denied the reports)
* world record-holder Tim Montgomery testified before a federal grand jury that he had used steroids
* baseball slugger Jason Giambi testified that he had used steroids

Lance Williams and Mark Fainaru-Wada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Williams_and_Mark_Fainaru-Wada)

[RayFink1e]

Huh? They are and were investigative reporters for the SF Chronicle newspaper. They were investigating steroids in all sports. They didn't single out and target Barry Bonds. Jezzz.... :rolleyes:



Lance Williams and Mark Fainaru-Wada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Williams_and_Mark_Fainaru-Wada)

Whose on the cover? Barry. And they said they did it for the love of the reporting, maybe Barry tooks roids for his love of baseball. Someone go back and dig up some crap on these guys and write a book about them

[Mark Carver]

Whose on the cover? Barry. And they said they did it for the love of the reporting, maybe Barry tooks roids for his love of baseball. Someone go back and dig up some crap on these guys and write a book about them

Yeah... I'm sure it will be a runaway best seller. :rolleyes:

[RayFink1e]

Yeah... I'm sure it will be a runaway best seller. :rolleyes:

If they look into the right people, it would be a good seller. You cant tell me someone like Bob Costas isnt into like some wierd sex or something. ;)

[mweb]

Using that logic I could make an argument that robbing a bank and killing the teller is the best choice for my family. After all, we could use the money.

THe guy is a cheater, and worse than that a liar. Not to mention he is one of the most surly a-holes inthe game. Screw Barry Bands, and his tainted record.

That's a huge leap in logic, and I'm sure you know that. Bonds' decision didn't hurt anyone else, and was one at least half of his peers made imo. Aaron's record is probably tainted as well if using illegal substances to improve one's game taints it.

[mweb]

I have a "friend" who argues that every player since 1988 should be looked at as a possible steroid user and that it is unfair to single out Bonds. He goes on to give examples that how could we know if Cal took steroids especially since he was able to pplay 2632 consecutive games. I can't even argue with him because I'm so incredulous.

I'm not going to address the Ripken thing, but steroids in baseball started well before 1988, look at my "Did the HR King cheat?" thread.

[DrungoHazewood]

I'm not going to address the Ripken thing, but steroids in baseball started well before 1988, look at my "Did the HR King cheat?" thread.

Pud Galvin used a primitive steroid in the 1880s.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Whose on the cover? Barry. And they said they did it for the love of the reporting, maybe Barry tooks roids for his love of baseball. Someone go back and dig up some crap on these guys and write a book about them

Why are you so against the media? Especially when the book is just an off-shoot of them doing their job.

What is your opinion of Jose Canseco and his book?

[mweb]

Hey BTerp, I'm interested in seeing you respond to my last post regarding our conversation last night about Bond's choice, so if you have a moment...

[RayFink1e]

Why are you so against the media? Especially when the book is just an off-shoot of them doing their job.

What is your opinion of Jose Canseco and his book?


Cause I try to put myself in the players shoes. Try it. Nobody would like to go through with people prying in their lives 24/7. I am tired of these sports writers who think they are perfect. If you are gonna have an opinion and write about someone publicly you better be able be perfectly clean yourself. Half of these writers try to be bigger then the athletes they cover. Most of them cower when someone calls them out. Its hilarious when Barry says something to Pedro Gomez, he is almost like a little puppy hiding cause he is scared. These guys dont even stand up for themselves. Then they will write something the next day like a little girl. I could go on. Not all sportswriters are like this, but alot are.

Canseco is a scumbag. What happens in the clubhouse stays in the clubhouse. And the only reason he wrote it is because he was broke.

[Mackus]

Nobody would like to go through with people prying in their lives 24/7.Anybody in the world would gladly go through it if they were getting paid tens of millions of dollars annually.

[beaner]

Anybody in the world would gladly go through it if they were getting paid tens of millions of dollars annually.

Heck yeah, where do I sign up?

[Why Not?]

I find this funny. The writers of the Game of Shadows werent even baseball writers. Basically they just used Bonds for their own personal gain. I hope when Barry retires he hires someone to write a book on all these sportswriters and gets people to dig. Then publishes it.

Do you realize the reporters almost went to jail protecting one of their sources? It isn't like they were just out for a quick buck. They did their job and did it well. They shed light on something going on that was clearly wrong. How could you possibly have a problem with that?

I still can't believe those jerks Woodward and Bernstein either!

[EddieO's21]

Do you realize the reporters almost went to jail protecting one of their sources? It isn't like they were just out for a quick buck. They did their job and did it well. They shed light on something going on that was clearly wrong. How could you possibly have a problem with that?

I still can't believe those jerks Woodward and Bernstein either!

i mean come on they weren't even polititians!!! What right did they have? Jeeeze it's pathetic, I mean really

:rolleyes:

[RayFink1e]

They went to jail because they broke the law, period.

Barry had more HR's in a season then K's. Amazing. If he was pitched too, i have no reason not to believe he couldnt of put up 80 HR's in a season.

[rolliefingers]

I hope this doesn't get lost in this thread, but I think Mike Wilbon had the best take on this story:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/08/AR2007080802627.html

[geschinger]

I hope this doesn't get lost in this thread, but I think Mike Wilbon had the best take on this story:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/08/AR2007080802627.html

Thanks for posting this, I am in agreement that it is the best take on the story that I've seen from anyone in the media.

[beaner]

I hope this doesn't get lost in this thread, but I think Mike Wilbon had the best take on this story:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/08/AR2007080802627.html

I was signing on the Hangout just now simply to post this link as well. Wilbon is terrific as always and it sums up so many feelings on this. Please read this everyone who has added their take to these Bonds threads, take a minute out of the day. It speaks to all of what we've been saying these past few days.

[DrungoHazewood]

I hope this doesn't get lost in this thread, but I think Mike Wilbon had the best take on this story:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/08/AR2007080802627.html

Good piece. I agree with most all of it, with the exception of his contention that the balls were juiced in the 90s. That's a big assumption considering there's little or no evidence for it, and there are a lot of other reasons (http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1004593&postcount=17) behind the homer/offense explosion.

[mweb]

I hope this doesn't get lost in this thread, but I think Mike Wilbon had the best take on this story:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/08/AR2007080802627.html

Good article. My only problem is something I've been harping on here, and that's his belief that players in Aaron's era were clean, which simply is not true.

[geschinger]

Good piece. I agree with most all of it, with the exception of his contention that the balls were juiced in the 90s. That's a big assumption considering there's little or no evidence for it, and there are a lot of other reasons (http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1004593&postcount=17) behind the homer/offense explosion.

Well we do know especially in the debate about PEDs in previous eras that absence of evidence is not evidence of absense. We've seen that MLB is not beyond messing w/baseballs (Coors field humidor) so it's at least plausible. Although maybe it's been proven that they weren't juiced - has there been any in depth investigation to show one way or the other whether or not the balls were juiced?

[mweb]

Well we do know especially in the debate about PEDs in previous eras that absence of evidence is not evidence of absense. We've seen that MLB is not beyond messing w/baseballs (Coors field humidor) so it's at least plausible. Although maybe it's been proven that they weren't juiced - has there been any in depth investigation to show one way or the other whether or not the balls were juiced?

What do you mean by that first line? There is evidence of PEDs in previous eras.

[geschinger]

What do you mean by that first line? There is evidence of PEDs in previous eras.

I'm referring specifically to steroids. Players have admitted to widespread greenie use who keep quiet on the usage of steroids. But I'm sure there were plenty of players in the 70s and 80s who used steroids to try and get an edge even if there is nothing but anecdotal evidence.

[mweb]

I'm referring specifically to steroids. Players have admitted to widespread greenie use who keep quiet on the usage of steroids. But I'm sure there were plenty of players in the 70s and 80s who used steroids to try and get an edge even if there is nothing but anecdotal evidence.

Did you read the link I posted on the Aaron thread? If not, here's some highlights:

Testimony by Tom House implicates Aaron:

The San Francisco Chronicle, in a May 3rd 2005 article quoted former Major League pitcher Tom House of the Atlanta Braves as saying that steroids were rampant in the game in the late '60s and throughout the '70s.


House, perhaps best known for catching Hank Aaron's 715th home run ball in 1974 in the Atlanta Braves bullpen, said he and several teammates used amphetamines, human growth hormone and 'whatever steroid' they could find in order to keep up with the competition.


"I pretty much popped everything cold turkey', House said. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding."

"I actually think that the game is cleaner today than when I was playing,'' says former major league pitcher Tom House, who pitched in the 1970s and was later Nolan Ryan's pitching coach. House says that he used steroids because "In my case, I was doing everything I could just to survive, but the steroid use ended up backfiring on him....Every generation of players -- the '20s, '30s, '40s on up -- everybody was looking for a way to get the most out of their bodies, and they took whatever they possibly could. It was almost expected. .


Testimony from Representative Henry Waxman

In 1973, the year I first ran for Congress, the House Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce concluded a year-long investigation that found--and I quote--"drug use exists...in all sports and levels of competition...In some instances, the danger of improper drug use--primarily amphetamines and anabolic steroids--can only be described as alarming". Bowie Kuhn, and the powers that be at the time, quietly squashed the entire tawdry episode and with good reason: it would cast suspicions on an African-American slugger who was challenging one of baseball's most cherished records: The career record for home runs

[geschinger]

Did you read the link I posted on the Aaron thread? If not, here's some highlights:

Testimony by Tom House implicates Aaron:

The San Francisco Chronicle, in a May 3rd 2005 article quoted former Major League pitcher Tom House of the Atlanta Braves as saying that steroids were rampant in the game in the late '60s and throughout the '70s.


If it's true that Hank was a user then Maybe Tom House should come out publically and take some heat off of Bonds and say unequivocally that Palmeiro, Bonds, McGwire etc... aren't doing anything differently than Hank Aaron did. Hank has been outspoken against steroid usage - if he's a hypocrite guys like House or Waxman or whomever might know should have the courage to expose him. If he wasn't a user they shouldn't try to taint him by association.

[mweb]

If it's true that Hank was a user then Maybe Tom House should come out publically and take some heat off of Bonds and say unequivocally that Palmeiro, Bonds, McGwire etc... aren't doing anything differently than Hank Aaron did. Hank has been outspoken against steroid usage - if he's a hypocrite guys like House or Waxman or whomever might know should have the courage to expose him. If he wasn't a user they shouldn't try to taint him by association.

I don't think he's trying to taint him by association, just being honest without throwing anyone other than himself under the bus. He didn't mention Aaron as far as I know. Most people don't like to rat out their teammates like Jose Canseco did, so I don't think House should do that.

But I think this shows that steroids have been around for longer than most think. And that, along with the statistical analysis of Aaron, certainly makes one wonder about him.

[geschinger]

I don't think he's trying to taint him by association, just being honest without throwing anyone other than himself under the bus. He didn't mention Aaron as far as I know. Most people don't like to rat out their teammates like Jose Canseco did, so I don't think House should do that.

But I think this shows that steroids have been around for longer than most think. And that, along with the statistical analysis of Aaron, certainly makes one wonder about him.

Now that I read it closer, I see that it was Waxman that did the hint/hint routine w/o mentioning Aaron's name specifically. Although with what House said, by not naming names he putting the shadow of doubt over all his teammates. There is no reason to name names just to name 'em, but if Hank was indeed a user and is being a hypocrite in his reactions to Bonds then I don't see why he shouldn't speak up.

[mweb]

Now that I read it closer, I see that it was Waxman that did the hint/hint routine w/o mentioning Aaron's name specifically. Although with what House said, by not naming names he putting the shadow of doubt over all his teammates. There is no reason to name names just to name 'em, but if Hank was indeed a user and is being a hypocrite in his reactions to Bonds then I don't see why he shouldn't speak up.

Yeah, House is putting a shadow of doubt over all his teammates, but really, he's putting a shadow of doubt over all of baseball in that era.

I wouldn't have a problem if he named Aaron or anyone else specifically, but I'm not advocating it either. It would be certainly good for my side of this debate though. :D

[geschinger]

Yeah, House is putting a shadow of doubt over all his teammates, but really, he's putting a shadow of doubt over all of baseball in that era.

I wouldn't have a problem if he named Aaron or anyone else specifically, but I'm not advocating it either. It would be certainly good for my side of this debate though. :D

Heh, I forget what the debate is even about. :)

It might help the both sides of some of the different debates... It would help by exposing that we don't really know whom was clean and whom was not. But in a hypothetical situation where there was indisputable evidence that Hank was guilty I think the reaction we'd see towards Hank in the media would be brutal. It would illustrate that Bonds is not being singled out.

[mweb]

Heh, I forget what the debate is even about. :)

It might help the both sides of some of the different debates... It would help by exposing that we don't really know whom was clean and whom was not. But in a hypothetical situation where there was indisputable evidence that Hank was guilty I think the reaction we'd see towards Hank in the media would be brutal. It would illustrate that Bonds is not being singled out.

It would be brutal, but a lot of that would be because he's been critical of steroids as you've said, because everyone thought of his as the being clean HR king, and just the surprise of it. It would just be a huge shock to the sports world since no one seemed to take notice of what House said.

I'm not a fan of anyone being singled out in the way Bonds, Raffy, and Big Mac have been, that's been one of my main points.

[geschinger]

It would be brutal, but a lot of that would be because he's been critical of steroids as you've said, and because everyone thought of his as the being clean HR king. It would just be a huge shock to the sports world since no one seemed to take notice to what House said.

I'm not a fan of anyone being singled out in the way Bonds, Raffy, and Big Mac have been, that's been one of my main points.

And it's a fair point although I think by singling out the stars and being brutal about it is a great catalyst to cleaning things up.

[mweb]

And it's a fair point although I think by singling out the stars and being brutal about it is a great catalyst to cleaning things up.

Well I think we would be naive to think the game is being or will be cleaned up. There have always, and will always be "cheating" going on in baseball.

[geschinger]

Well I think we would be naive to think the game is being or will be cleaned up. There have always, and will always be "cheating" going on in baseball.

No doubt, but surely you'd agree that making it a lot tougher to cheat is beneficial to reducing the amount of cheating, no? No rule, no law, no test is going to be catch everyone/everything. But that doesn't mean that MLB shouldn't be pressured to do what it can to limit it. I'm confident that there is a heck of a lot less usage of anabloic steroids today compared to a few years ago.

[66-70-83-??]

I don't think he's trying to taint him by association, just being honest without throwing anyone other than himself under the bus. He didn't mention Aaron as far as I know. Most people don't like to rat out their teammates like Jose Canseco did, so I don't think House should do that.

But I think this shows that steroids have been around for longer than most think. And that, along with the statistical analysis of Aaron, certainly makes one wonder about him.

It shouldn't.

It doesn't pass the smell test (Aaron using roids) at all.

I remember Aaron breaking the record.

The only stories of steroids that I recall around that time (mid 1970's) was centered around the East German women olympic athletes and bodybuilders. And those East German women looked like men ! :eek:

Through all the years of the 'steroid era"....all the speculation about players, etc...no one has EVER suggested Aaron used them. Why now all of a sudden ?

All of a sudden in June 2007, a few weeks before Bonds breaks the record (just a coincidence :rolleyes: ) some "blog" makes the suggestion based on a referenced article (no link provided).

Not only that, but this "blog" has the title "Tom House Implicates Aaron", but nothing that I read implicates anyone but himself.

In fact, a little research and voila- here is the article that all these blogs referenced, but none provided the link for.

Why not provide the link to the article ? Probably because there is NOTHING, in any way shape or form that could be considered "implicating Aaron" in this article. Lets not let any facts get in the way of a good conspiracy.

You were duped by a Bonds fan blogger. This "story" that you posted and reference in several threads has no credibility.

http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/socalsportsfan/2007/06/22/The_X_Files_Hank_Aaron

Did you click on the "quotes" and follow the links ? It just sends you to another "blog" ?

Blogs shouldn't be given any credibility unless they can back up their claims.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/05/03/SPGSTCJ0SK1.DTL&hw=tom+house&sn=001&sc=1000

The only reference to Aaron in the story-


House, now 58, might be best known for catching Hank Aaron's 715th home run on April 8, 1974, in the Braves' bullpen at old Fulton County Stadium.

:rolleyes:

[mweb]

No doubt, but surely you'd agree that making it a lot tougher to cheat is beneficial to reducing the amount of cheating, no? No rule, no law, no test is going to be catch everyone/everything. But that doesn't mean that MLB shouldn't be pressured to do what it can to limit it. I'm confident that there is a heck of a lot less usage of anabloic steroids today compared to a few years ago.

Well there's obviously going to be less usage of the stuff that is tested for, however, there is plenty of things that cannot be detected by the testing, and I'm pretty confident that the usage of that stuff has gone up since testing started.

Basically, you have to be stupid(use something that can be detected by a test at a time when it will still be in your system when you take the test), or unlucky like Bonds, Sheff, and Giambi were with the gov't finding out about BALCO. Or how McGwire, Raffy, Irod, etc were unlucky that Jose decided to make some money with a book.

Yes, making it tougher is better, my only problem with that is that many now assume the game is clean, which is far from the truth.

[66-70-83-??]

And it's a fair point although I think by singling out the stars and being brutal about it is a great catalyst to cleaning things up.

Darn right it is ! ;)

[geschinger]

Well there's obviously going to be less usage of the stuff that is tested for, however, there is plenty of things that cannot be detected by the testing, and I'm pretty confident that the usage of that stuff has gone up since testing started.


Probably correct. What I'd like to see happen is for the testing to be turned over to an independent agency that is funded to be able to do R&D into new testing procedures. Implement draconian penalties and the first time the testing agency comes up with a way to test for a previously undetectable substance and dozens of players have their careers ended on the spot the level of cheating will drop dramatically.

[mweb]

It shouldn't.

It doesn't pass the smell test (Aaron using roids) at all.

I remember Aaron breaking the record.

The only stories of steroids that I recall around that time (mid 1970's) was centered around the East German women olympic athletes and bodybuilders. And those East German women looked like men ! :eek:

Through all the years of the 'steroid era"....all the speculation about players, etc...no one has EVER suggested Aaron used them. Why now all of a sudden ?

All of a sudden in June 2007, a few weeks before Bonds breaks the record (just a coincidence :rolleyes: ) some "blog" makes the suggestion based on a referenced article (no link provided).

Not only that, but this "blog" has the title "Tom House Implicates Aaron", but nothing that I read implicates anyone but himself.

In fact, a little research and voila- here is the article that all these blogs referenced, but none provided the link for.

Why not provide the link to the article ? Probably because there is NOTHING, in any way shape or form that could be considered "implicating Aaron" in this article. Lets not let any facts get in the way of a good conspiracy.

You were duped by a Bonds fan blogger. This story has no credibility.

Did you click on the "quotes" and follow the links ? It just sends you to another "blog" ?

Blogs shouldn't be given any credibility unless they can back up their claims.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/05/03/SPGSTCJ0SK1.DTL&hw=tom+house&sn=001&sc=1000

You've got to be kidding me, it clearly passed the smell test, if you refuse to accept that, fine, but I don't see how anyone could say with certainty that Aaron never used after reading that and looking at his stats.

I agree that when he says House implicates Aaron, that's going too far(so I was never duped), but House did say that several of his teammates and players in all of MLB used steroids. The claims(besides the bad headline) are backed up just fine, no one has said Aaron definitely used steroids.

The media was much different in the 60's and 70's, they weren't trying to expose baseball players as cheaters like they're today.

[mweb]

Darn right it is ! ;)

Maybe if Hank Aaron was singled out, baseball would be more clean today.;)

[RShack]

Here's a hypothetical question: Imagine that there is some Substance-X that has both performance advantages and health advantages. If such a substance helps make people healthier and makes them perform better, do you think it's OK for ballplayers to use it... even at the risk of making old pre-Substance-X records obsolete? Or do you somehow try to prevent ballplayers from using Substance-X (and perhaps losing the health benefit) despite the fact that non-ballplayers can use it to get both benefits?

On other words, if you imagine that there is some version of roids that does not have bad health consequences, what would you do about that?

(Some folks think HGH might be such a thing. As yet, there is no reason to conclude that, and there is some smattering of evidence to not-conclude that. But this question is not about HGH, it's about the general idea.)

.

[geschinger]

Here's a hypothetical question: Imagine that there is some Substance-X that has both performance advantages and health advantages. If such a substance helps make people healthier and makes them perform better, do you think it's OK for ballplayers to use it... even at the risk of making old pre-Substance-X records obsolete? Or do you somehow try to prevent ballplayers from using Substance-X (and perhaps losing the health benefit) despite the fact that non-ballplayers can use it to get both benefits?


It's a good question but I suspect it would be allowed. What I find most interesting is the question of performance enhancing aids. Such as the PECs that Brian Roberts used during some games in 2005. How does baseball respond if their further refined to where they produce a huge advantage for hitters. Or what if there is a replacement for Tommy John surgery that uses something artifical rather than a tendon from the forearm or hamstring and it w/that artificial ligament proves to be a huge performance boost. It'll be interesting to see whether or not exotic procedures or new gear gets approval as time goes on.

[mweb]

Here's a hypothetical question: Imagine that there is some Substance-X that has both performance advantages and health advantages. If such a substance helps make people healthier and makes them perform better, do you think it's OK for ballplayers to use it... even at the risk of making old pre-Substance-X records obsolete? Or do you somehow try to prevent ballplayers from using Substance-X (and perhaps losing the health benefit) despite the fact that non-ballplayers can use it to get both benefits?

On other words, if you imagine that there is some version of roids that does not have bad health consequences, what would you do about that?

(Some folks think HGH might be such a thing. As yet, there is no reason to conclude that, and there is some smattering of evidence to not-conclude that. But this question is not about HGH, it's about the general idea.)

.


Good question. I would allow it, although, I think many would have an issue with it. The reason I say that is I don't think most care that steroids/HGH may harm the players using them, nor do I think most really care much about them being against the law. What people really care about is the "unfair" advantage they give players compared to the supposed clean players of the past and the clean players of the present.

[mweb]

Heh, I forget what the debate is even about. :)

It might help the both sides of some of the different debates... It would help by exposing that we don't really know whom was clean and whom was not. But in a hypothetical situation where there was indisputable evidence that Hank was guilty I think the reaction we'd see towards Hank in the media would be brutal. It would illustrate that Bonds is not being singled out.

To expand on this, I wonder why there hasn't been more attention paid to what House and Waxman said? You would think in a time where steroids have been a huge story in sports and specifically baseball, that the media would have focused on that and did some investigating. However, they basically ignored it and basically act like they never heard it. I guess they've been spending too much time concentrating on Bonds to focus on the past.

[mweb]

I believe Waxman was one of the main characters in Congress making a big deal about steroid usage in professional sports. It makes me think that whatever he had from back then must not have been too credible for him not to tout how much of a visionary he was on the subject. Of course that is just rampant speculation on my part. I really have no idea.

I just see it as the media deciding to not go after this angle. Waxman and House said there piece, I'm not sure what else you want them to do.

[geschinger]

I believe Waxman was one of the main characters in Congress making a big deal about steroid usage in professional sports. It makes me think that whatever he had from back then must not have been too credible for him not to tout how much of a visionary he was on the subject. Of course that is just rampant speculation on my part. I really have no idea. If there was really something legitimate w/Waxman's previous work, why do you think he didn't shine a spotlight on it?



I just see it as the media deciding to not go after this angle. Waxman and House said there piece, I'm not sure what else you want them to do.

I watched some of the hearings and don't recall Waxman bringing it up. If he had credible evidence of say Hank Aaron as a user as hinted at in the quote from your previous post and it was credible why do you think he didn't bring it up? Seems out of character for a congressman to forgo the opportunity to have an "I told you so" moment, no?

[geschinger]

Good question. I would allow it, although, I think many would have an issue with it. The reason I say that is I don't think most care that steroids/HGH may harm the players using them, nor do I think most really care much about them being against the law. What people really care about is the "unfair" advantage they give players compared to the supposed clean players of the past and the clean players of the present.

I agree that most don't care as much about the harm players are doing to themselves but rather what happens to kids whom look up to major leaguers an emulate them. I don't know that most people care even about the advantages between players from today and the past. I think people generally just want a clean game however naive that might be. If they know that someone is cheating and they see that particular player do something to beat their team they feel like they were cheated.

[mweb]

I watched some of the hearings and don't recall Waxman bringing it up. If he had credible evidence of say Hank Aaron as a user as hinted at in the quote from your previous post and it was credible why do you think he didn't bring it up? Seems out of character for a congressman to forgo the opportunity to have an "I told you so" moment, no?

He never really said that Aaron was using imo, he said there would be suspicion of Aaron if people knew what was going on with baseball and steroids. What type of credible evidence could one have? It's not like the government or MLB was going after players back then, so there's not going to be a BALCO type of deal, and there won't be a test, so that leaves guys like Tom House. If they don't want to name names, you have no proof. So was he supposed to speculate that Aaron may have used?

Bottomline to me, there's more than enough info out there for the media to pick up this story and run with it, yet they haven't, I find that odd.

[geschinger]

He never really said that Aaron was using imo, he said there would be suspicion of Aaron if people knew what was going on with baseball and steroids. What type of credible evidence could one have? It's not like the government or MLB was going after players back then, so there's not going to be a BALCO type of deal, and there won't be a test, so that leaves guys like Tom House. If they don't want to name names, you have no proof. So was he supposed to speculate that Aaron may have used?

Bottomline to me, there's more than enough info out there for the media to pick up this story and run with it, yet they haven't, I find that odd.

I don't understand... If there is no credible evidence that one could have and the best they could do would be to bring Tom House in front of the committee then what exactly is the media supposed to run with? How can there not be enough to not bring it up in committee but enough for the media to make something out of it?

[mweb]

I agree that most don't care as much about the harm players are doing to themselves but rather what happens to kids whom look up to major leaguers an emulate them. I don't know that most people care even about the advantages between players from today and the past. I think people generally just want a clean game however naive that might be. If they know that someone is cheating and they see that particular player do something to beat their team they feel like they were cheated.

Well if baseball and the govt continued to look the other way when it comes to steroids in baseball, kids wouldn't know that using steroids was a way to emulate them. Yet kids had been using them anyway. I think this angle of the story gets blown of proportion as well. High school and college students generally haven't been using steroids because MLB players have imo. Plus, I really don't think most care much about that when concerning Bonds or Raffy or McGwire.

In these threads about Bonds, many seem to care about the advantages between players from today and the past. It's also been a big angle in the media. I would agree with your statement if we were talking about football or hockey or basketball. However, people really care about the numbers numbers and records of baseball, many feel the numbers of today are tainted, and don't like how the numbers of the clean players are being passed by and made to look less impressive.

[mweb]

I don't understand... If there is no credible evidence that one could have and the best they could do would be to bring Tom House in front of the committee then what exactly is the media supposed to run with? How can there not be enough to not bring it up in committee but enough for the media to make something out of it?

I'm not saying the media should have come out and said Hank Aaron may have used steroids, but you would think the media would make a big deal of a player saying steroids were rampant in the 60's and 70's, a time most considered to be pure.

[66-70-83-??]

Now that I read it closer, I see that it was Waxman that did the hint/hint routine w/o mentioning Aaron's name specifically. Although with what House said, by not naming names he putting the shadow of doubt over all his teammates. There is no reason to name names just to name 'em, but if Hank was indeed a user and is being a hypocrite in his reactions to Bonds then I don't see why he shouldn't speak up.

Read even closer........ it was the "blogger's" commentary mixed in that makes wild assumptions, like he did with the phony "House Implicates Aaron" headline.

Here is what Waxman actually did say-

http://oversight.house.gov/Documents/20050317121006-68561.pdf

No mention of Aaron at all. No mention of any specific player.


In 1973, the year I first ran for Congress, the House Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce concluded a year-long investigation that found — and I quote — “drug use exists … in all sports and levels of competition … In some instances, the degree of improper drug use — primarily amphetamines and anabolic steroids — can only be described as alarming.”

Who knows what the report found ?

I have read before that in the 1970's anabolic steroids were still only used primarily by weightlifters, body builders, javelin/shot put athletes, etc.... those who needed the bulk and strength.

They may have only found Amphetamines in baseball and anabolic steroids in weightlifting or football ?

[mweb]

Read even closer........ it was the "blogger's" commentary mixed in that makes wild assumptions, like he did with the phony "House Implicates Aaron" headline.

Here is what Waxman actually did say-

http://oversight.house.gov/Documents/20050317121006-68561.pdf

No mention of Aaron at all. No mention of any specific player.



Who knows what the report found ?

I have read before that anabolic steroids were primarily used by weightlifters, body builders, javelin/shot put athletes, etc.... those who needed the bulk and strength.

They may have only found Amphetamines in baseball and anabolic steroids in weightlifting or football ?

I wasn't saying anyone mentioned Aaron by name.

Did you read what House said? It's pretty clear that steroids were used in baseball at the time unless he's just making things up.

[geschinger]

Well if baseball and the govt continued to look the other way when it comes to steroids in baseball, kids wouldn't know that using steroids was a way to emulate them. Yet kids had been using them anyway. I think this angle of the story gets blown of proportion as well. High school and college students generally haven't been using steroids because MLB players have imo. Plus, I really don't think most care much about that when concerning Bonds or Raffy or McGwire.


Kids aren't stupid. If MLB doesn't in any way ban them or try to stop them then the message is that they must be acceptable. No consequences outside of personal health combined with the rewards of "making it" is going to drive HS and college players to do it. Then when other players see their teammates doing it, they feel like they have to as well to even the playing field. If you don't think MLBers have an impact and don't think people cared about McGwire I'd point out that Andro sales quadrupled after being tied to him.


In these threads about Bonds, many seem to care about the advantages between players from today and the past. It's also been a big angle in the media. I would agree with your statement if we were talking about football or hockey or basketball. However, people really care about the numbers numbers and records of baseball, many feel the numbers of today are tainted, and don't like how the numbers of the clean players are being passed by and made to look less impressive.

This is a baseball forum. While many here care a lot about advantages across eras I'm not sure that is the case for the general public. But sure, when it comes to records people care. I have no doubt that if Brett Favre were a confirmed doper when he goes to break Marino's TD record there would be a whole lot of commentary about how it's tainted.

[geschinger]

I'm not saying the media should have come out and said Hank Aaron may have used steroids, but you would think the media would make a big deal of a player saying steroids were rampant in the 60's and 70's, a time most considered to be pure.

But if there is no evidence to back any of that up, I'm not quite sure what the media was to do.

For example, there are players mentioned in Canseco's book that don't get much attention. I would argue it's because they aren't going to just take his word for it and there isn't any available evidence they've come up w/to verify what Canseco alleges.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you are implying that the media chose not to pursue it. Isn't it possible that they did pursue it and couldn't get anyone else or anything to confirm House's account? Therefore no story?

[mweb]

Kids aren't stupid. If MLB doesn't in any way ban them or try to stop them then the message is that they must be acceptable. No consequences outside of personal health combined with the rewards of "making it" is going to drive HS and college players to do it. Then when other players see their teammates doing it, they feel like they have to as well to even the playing field. If you don't think MLBers have an impact and don't think people cared about McGwire I'd point out that Andro sales quadrupled after being tied to him.



This is a baseball forum. While many here care a lot about advantages across eras I'm not sure that is the case for the general public. But sure, when it comes to records people care. I have no doubt that if Brett Favre were a confirmed doper when he goes to break Marino's TD record there would be a whole lot of commentary about how it's tainted.

Again, kids were doing plenty of steroids before steroids in baseball became public. I doubt what MLB is doing with steroids has any effect on high school and college kids doing steroids.

Yeah, Andro was legal and people knew he was using. People didn't know players were using steroids, and still don't know who uses/has used for the most part, and that will continue. As will kids doing steroids.

I don't think many non-sports fans care that much about this scandal. If they did, they should focus more on pro wrestling.

Yeah, a lot of people would care about Favre doing steroids, yet the TD record isn't nearly as big of a deal in sports as the HR record is. And we've seen the reaction to football players using steroids, even with Merriman, it wasn't/isn't that big of a story. It would be bigger with Favre though.

[mweb]

But if there is no evidence to back any of that up, I'm not quite sure what the media was to do.

For example, there are players mentioned in Canseco's book that don't get much attention. I would argue it's because they aren't going to just take his word for it and there isn't any available evidence they've come up w/to verify what Canseco alleges.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you are implying that the media chose not to pursue it. Isn't it possible that they did pursue it and couldn't get anyone else or anything to confirm House's account? Therefore no story?

When Canseco came out with his books, those names were big stories, there was tons of speculation.

It's possible, however, you would think "Tom House alledges that steroids were a big part of baseball in the 60's and 70's" would be mentioned many times and not totally forgotten. And if they did pursue it, wouldn't that story still be worth an Outside The Lines episode and a big part of PTI, Around the Horn, sports talk radio, etc? I don't recall seeing a bunch of quotes or player reactions to what House said, do you?

Based on what House and Waxman said, at the very least, the media shouldn't assume everyone was clean in the 60's and 70's like they currently do.

[66-70-83-??]

I wasn't saying anyone mentioned Aaron by name.

Did you read what House said? It's pretty clear that steroids were used in baseball at the time unless he's just making things up.

Pretty clear ? Not to me.

Why is it "clear" (no pun intended) ? :D

Just because one guy (Tom House) says so ? :confused:

A teammate of his claims he doesn't know where he is coming from.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/05/04/SPGAVCJNUS1.DTL&hw=tom+house&sn=002&sc=638


"In my major-league career, I never heard of steroids and never saw anyone who took them," Grieve said. "At the same time, recreational drugs were readily available, probably more widespread in the '70s than at any other time.

If roids were widespread in MLB, you can bet Bouton (for one) would have mentioned it in Ball Four.

Speaking of Jim, he talks about the greenies of his day vs the roids of today in an interview with THT.


I asked Bouton if he could compare and contrast the use of steroids with that of greenies (amphetamines), and he characterized it this way: greenies are “performance enablers,” while steroids are “performance enhancers.” Greenies, Bouton said, are something players in his day would use to help recover from a hangover, to get back to normal or something approximating it, but they didn’t actually develop muscle. In his view the two drugs aren’t comparable.


he’s pleased that MLB has finally come down hard against steroid use, although Bouton says he wishes they’d gotten serious about it earlier. He blames the Major League Baseball Players Association for resisting steroid testing, for protecting the interests of players who’ve been using steroids over the interests of those who haven’t.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-tht-interview-jim-bouton/

Do you have anything but the lone House admission ? I have done google searches. Other than the one House reference that specifically mentions steroids, I can't find any reference linked to baseball earlier than 1985.

[geschinger]

Again, kids were doing plenty of steroids before steroids in baseball became public. I doubt what MLB is doing with steroids has any effect on high school and college kids doing steroids.


MLB's actions certainly didn't help turn people away from steroids. The bashing of the stars might help convince some kids that are naive about 'em to avoid 'em. The explosion of coverage of MLBs problem has resulted in a lot of good things being implemented by states, high school associations, etc...


Yeah, a lot of people would care about Favre doing steroids, yet the TD record isn't nearly as big of a deal in sports as the HR record is. And we've seen the reaction to football players using steroids, even with Merriman, it wasn't/isn't that big of a story. It would be bigger with Favre though.

As I said in the football thread, Merriman is far from being the same kind of big name that Bonds and Raffy are which limits the story somewhat. But even still there was enough hoopla that forced the NFL to do something that not even MLB has been willing to do with the "Merriman rule". I believe MLBers who get caught using steroids are still eligible to be All-Stars.

[66-70-83-??]

When Canseco came out with his books, those names were big stories, there was tons of speculation.

It's possible, however, you would think "Tom House alledges that steroids were a big part of baseball in the 60's and 70's" would be mentioned many times and not totally forgotten. And if they did pursue it, wouldn't that story still be worth an Outside The Lines episode and a big part of PTI, Around the Horn, sports talk radio, etc? I don't recall seeing a bunch of quotes or player reactions to what House said, do you?

Based on what House and Waxman said, at the very least, the media shouldn't assume everyone was clean in the 60's and 70's like they currently do.

How do we know that the media didn't look into House's claims and couldn't get anyone to confirm it ? Are they suppose to take one man's claims about something he allegedly did 30 years ago ?

Is that the standard that you want a fair and balanced media to take ? All sorts of loons would be claiming all sorts of things.

As far as what Waxman says- he doesn't say anything that directly links steroids to baseball. You have to make a leap to come to that conclusion. Drugs- yes. Steroids- no.

I think there would be a lot more smoke if there was really a fire here, imo.

Why hasn't House been specific on which roids he was taking ? And what years, etc... ?

Why hasn't more players (his teammates for ex) come out and backed him ? After all, he gave them some cover by being the first to come out with the info ?

[mweb]

Pretty clear ? Not to me.

Why is it "clear" (no pun intended) ? :D

Just because one guy (Tom House) says so ? :confused:

A teammate of his claims he doesn't know where he is coming from.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/05/04/SPGAVCJNUS1.DTL&hw=tom+house&sn=002&sc=638



If roids were widespread in MLB, you can bet Bouton (for one) would have mentioned it in Ball Four.

Speaking of Jim, he talks about the greenies of his day vs the roids of today in an interview with THT.





http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-tht-interview-jim-bouton/

Do you have anything but the lone House admission ? I have done google searches. Other than the one House reference that specifically mentions steroids, I can't find any reference linked to baseball earlier than 1985.


I like how you stopped the bolding before it said unless he's making it up. Way to go.

Is it possible that he's making it up, sure, but I don't see any good reason for that. The statistcal analysis of that Braves team certainly would lead one to be skeptical as well. The Waxman comments are also interesting.

I also understand that baseball players and athletes have always been looking for an edge, steroids were out there, so I find it hard to believe that no one took advantage of them in a time where nothing was being done about it and they were already taking greenies all the time.

Why would Bouton bring it up? I doubt steroids were in bowls in the clubhouse like Greenies were. It's only natural for players of that era to say it wasn't going on.

[geschinger]

When Canseco came out with his books, those names were big stories, there was tons of speculation.

It's possible, however, you would think "Tom House alledges that steroids were a big part of baseball in the 60's and 70's" would be mentioned many times and not totally forgotten. And if they did pursue it, wouldn't that story still be worth an Outside The Lines episode and a big part of PTI, Around the Horn, sports talk radio, etc? I don't recall seeing a bunch of quotes or player reactions to what House said, do you?

Based on what House and Waxman said, at the very least, the media shouldn't assume everyone was clean in the 60's and 70's like they currently do.

You think that even if they couldn't verify any of his claims that it should merit a bunch of media coverage? I'd like the think that the media is more careful than that. And Waxman was big in the hearings, what he had to say was everywhere in the media.

[mweb]

How do we know that the media didn't look into House's claims and couldn't get anyone to confirm it ? Are they suppose to take one man's claims about something he allegedly did 30 years ago ?

Is that the standard that you want a fair and balanced media to take ? All sorts of loons would be claiming all sorts of things.

As far as what Waxman says- he doesn't say anything that directly links steroids to baseball. You have to make a leap to come to that conclusion. Drugs- yes. Steroids- no.

I think there would be a lot more smoke if there was really a fire here, imo.

Why hasn't House been specific on which roids he was taking ? And what years, etc... ?

Why hasn't more players (his teammates for ex) come out and backed him ? After all, he gave them some cover by being the first to come out with the info ?

I already addressed your media questions.

Yes, that is the standard I want them to take, if a guy comes out and makes accusations of that nature, a big deal should be made of it. I'm not saying it should be considered the gospel or anything, but it should be considered.

Not much of a leap.

Maybe there would be more smoke, but I haven't seen much evidence of an investigation.

He was pretty specific, I'm not sure how detailed you want him to be, it's not like he wrote a book on it.

Why would ex teammates come out and back him? I'm sure he got a ton of you know what from former players after saying that, why would anyone else want to go through that?

Look, I'm not saying anything definitive here, I'm saying you shouldn't be so sure Aaron or anyone else in that era was clean of steroids.

[mweb]

You think that even if they couldn't verify any of his claims that it should merit a bunch of media coverage? I'd like the think that the media is more careful than that. And Waxman was big in the hearings, what he had to say was everywhere in the media.

How much clearer do you want me to be on this? Yes, they should have given it more coverage! Careful? If an ex player makes a claim like that, it's a story, once again, I'm not saying ESPN should have started SC by saying "Shocking development, steroids were rampant in the 60's and 70's", I'm saying the claims should have been mentioned and people shouldn't assume all those guys were clean. Stuff like that is reported all the time.

[geschinger]

How much clearer do you want me to be on this? Yes, they should have given it more coverage! Careful? If an ex player makes a claim like that, it's a story, once again, I'm not saying ESPN should have started SC by saying "Shocking development, steroids were rampant in the 60's and 70's", I'm saying the claims should have been mentioned and people shouldn't assume all those guys were clean. Stuff like that is reported all the time.

His claims were mentioned somewhere, a quick googling of of Tom House and steroids shows that it was covered seemingly everywhere. I have no way of knowing whether or not it was on Sports Center; I'd be surprised if it wasn't. The media reports his claims but if they find no confirmation from others or evidence there is nowhere else for the story to go - it's a one or two day story before it becomes an unsubstantiated allegation. Unsubstantiated allegations usually have a short shelf life and rightly so IMO.

[mweb]

His claims were mentioned somewhere, a quick googling of of Tom House and steroids shows that it was covered seemingly everywhere. I have no way of knowing whether or not it was on Sports Center; I'd be surprised if it wasn't. The media reports his claims but if they find no confirmation from others or evidence there is nowhere else for the story to go - it's a one or two day story before it becomes an unsubstantiated allegation. Unsubstantiated allegations usually have a short shelf life and rightly so IMO.

That's great, but what I want is for it not to be totally ignored after the fact. It's like it happened, they reported it for a day, and shortly thereafter, they went back to saying the game was pure in the 60's and 70's. The way the media talks about illegal PED's, it's like they were just invented 20 years ago, they say things like steroids weren't available when Aaron played.

Sorry if I've been all over the map on this topic, but this is probably post #126 on Bonds and steroids.:D Thanks for being the main cog in this back and forth exchange, it's been fun. Oh, and that doesn't mean I'm stepping away from it, but it will probably die pretty soon.:)

[RShack]

That's great, but what I want is for it not to be totally ignored after the fact. It's like it happened, they reported it for a day, and shortly thereafter, they went back to saying [the same old thing].
But that's how the media deal with almost everything these days. If I could choose 3 issues (or 10 issues) to make them focus on better than that, topics about sports wouldn't make the cut. I think you can pin a fair amount of today's unacceptable nonsense on this very problem...
.

[geschinger]

That's great, but what I want is for it not to be totally ignored after the fact. It's like it happened, they reported it for a day, and shortly thereafter, they went back to saying the game was pure in the 60's and 70's. The way the media talks about illegal PED's, it's like they were just invented 20 years ago, they say things like steroids weren't available when Aaron played.


If another player came forward to substantiate what House has said I think it would get a lot more play. Thinking back to Canseco's book, if I'm remembering correctly many discounted the allegations and it took verification and confirmation from secondary sources before the public was convinced about certain players. Players mentioned in the book for which the allegation is not confirmed are not brought up much in the discussions of steroids.



Sorry if I've been all over the map on this topic, but this is probably post #126 on Bonds and steroids.:D Thanks for being the main cog in this back and forth exchange, it's been fun. Oh, and that doesn't mean I'm stepping away from it, but it will probably die pretty soon.:)

Heh, I know what you mean. I lost track of the initial debate long ago.