Did the previous HR King cheat?

[mweb]

http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/socalsportsfan/2007/06/22/The_X_Files_Hank_Aaron

This is really more about steroids and greenies in baseball in the 60's and 70's, but tries to focus on Aaron. Not really much there on him besides the one greenie, but makes one think.

Some interesting info on baseball and steroids in the 60's and 70's that many of us(including me) have heard, but seem to have forgotten or ignored.

I don't think the game was nearly as clean as many assume.

[RayFink1e]

Great find. Maybe one of these sportswriters would actually do some research like this guy. Instead of doing everything they can to make Bonds look bad

[RShack]

Oh, good grief...

OF COURSE players routinely experimented with stuff... back then, there was no reason not to.... nobody knew one-percent as much about this stuff as everybody knows now... the world was very different then.

One of my favorite things about the old Letterman show (the one that used to follow Carson's Tonight Show) was that he had Colt great and HOFer Artie Donovan as a semi-frequent guest. Once, Dave asked Artie about this. Artie said that he never did any drugs... except for swallowing a handful of greenies that were always sitting out in a bowl in the locker room.... but he didn't think of them as drugs, they were just greenies.

Some people wanna make all this a clear-cut, black-and-white issue. If you wanna do that, good luck...

[mweb]

Oh, good grief...

OF COURSE players routinely experimented with stuff... back then, there was no reason not to.... nobody knew one-percent as much about this stuff as everybody knows now... the world was very different then.

One of my favorite things about the old Letterman show (the one that used to follow Carson's Tonight Show) was that he had Colt great and HOFer Artie Donovan as a semi-frequent guest. Once, Dave asked Artie about this. Artie said that he never did any drugs... except for swallowing a handful of greenies that were always sitting out in a bowl in the locker room.... but he didn't think of them as drugs, they were just greenies.

Some people wanna make all this a clear-cut, black-and-white issue. If you wanna do that, good luck...

I'm pretty sure people had an idea these things weren't good for you in the 60's and 70's. In fact, Waxman said as much in '73 as he called the use of the drugs "alarming."

[mweb]

Post I made in another thread based on the link in this thread: Hank Aaron had his best hr years(per ab) in his age 37-39 seasons along with his best season in OPS+. He lead the leage in each of those 3 years in ab's per hr, something he had never done before. Meanwhile, two of his teammates(Johnson, Evans) had huge and unusual power spikes in '73. Certainly makes one wonder, especially knowing that Hank was willing to try greenies.

[Bosibus]

As I will also move in since it fits both threads....


BTW, concerning zepp's point about performing after age 35, Hank Aaron had his best hr years(per ab) in his age 37-39 seasons along with his best season in OPS+. He lead the leage in each of those 3 years in ab's per hr, something he had never done before. Meanwhile, two of his teammates(Johnson, Evans) had huge and unusual power spikes in '73. Certainly makes one wonder, especially knowing that Hank was willing to try greenies.

This article was written in 2004 before Raffy got busted. Aaron could have easily been on something.


Aaron produced plenty of late-career homer heroics after 1968. From ages 35 (1969) through 39, he smacked 203 dingers, and he added another 42 in his 40s, meaning that nearly a third of his homers (32.4 percent) came after age 35. The only batters other than Aaron to top 200 homers after 35 are Bonds and Rafael Palmeiro.

link: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2795

Also, I always remember my father saying that during Aaron's run, they would move the fences in for him. In the same article, I found this tidbit:


Nonetheless, the pattern for Aaron is rather convincing. The Braves moved from Milwaukee to Atlanta in 1966. According to Ballparks.com, Milwaukee County Stadium's fences at the time they left were (left to right) 320'- 362'-402'-362'-315', standing at 8'4" to 10' tall. Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium's fences were further back to begin with (325'-385'-402'-385'-325') but they stood only 6' tall. The park underwent some rejiggering in the team's first few years and stood at 330'-375'-400'-375'-330' by 1969. While those dimensions made the field larger than Milwaukee's, the Atlanta stadium's altitude of 1,000 feet above sea level placed it as the highest park in the majors until the Colorado Rockies came along, and its impact on homer totals gave it the nickname "The Launching Pad."

Of course, my father was a little off on his statement, but this definetly influenced his HR totals playing in a "launching pad".

[RShack]

I'm pretty sure people had an idea these things weren't good for you in the 60's and 70's. In fact, Waxman said as much in '73 as he called the use of the drugs "alarming."
Whatever. Being "good for you" is completely irrelevant anyway...

My point is that we all-the-sudden seem to have some new fundamentalist redefinition of what constitutes "cheating". Here's the formula: take today's new set of purist opinions, then go back in time and apply them retroactively to past deeds when people thought about things differently, and voila!... people feel justified in dissing Hank Aaron of all people.

I think this is pretty nuts... and needlessly disrespectful to boot... but I guess maybe some folks think it's fun to shout "Scandal!!!"

I don't really care what Hank did or didn't swallow. I'm just glad that I didn't have to go through all the crap he had to go through.

[mweb]

Whatever. Being "good for you" is completely irrelevant anyway...

My point is that we all-the-sudden seem to have some new fundamentalist redefinition of what constitutes "cheating". Here's the formula: take today's new set of purist opinions, then go back in time and apply them retroactively to past deeds when people thought about things differently, and voila!... people feel justified in dissing Hank Aaron of all people.

I think this is pretty nuts... and needlessly disrespectful to boot... but I guess maybe some folks think it's fun to shout "Scandal!!!"

I don't really care what Hank did or didn't swallow. I'm just glad that I didn't have to go through all the crap he had to go through.

Well isn't that pretty similiar to how we are viewing players who "cheated" in the 90's?

I'm not really dissing Aaron, I'm just saying he tried greenies at the very least, and may have taken steroids. I'm mentioning this so people realize drugs and "cheating" have been in the game, and in a big way, for much longer than many think. So that may change the way they judge Barry or any other player in the steroid era.

[YardBirds13]

Well isn't that pretty similiar to how we are viewing players who "cheated" in the 90's?

I'm not really dissing Aaron, I'm just saying he tried greenies at the very least, and may have taken steroids. I'm mentioning this so people realize drugs and "cheating" have been in the game, and in a big way, for much longer than many think. So that may change the way they judge Barry or any other player in the steroid era.

Yes. It's exactly what people who are pissed at Bonds are doing. Exactly the same thing.

Nobody in this thread (as far as I can tell, especially you mweb) was taking shots at Hank or calling him out or anything. I think the point was that everyone is all over Bonds right now, perhaps they just need to take a step back and see how prevalent this stuff has been in baseball for a long time.

[geschinger]

Yes. It's exactly what people who are pissed at Bonds are doing. Exactly the same thing.

Nobody in this thread (as far as I can tell, especially you mweb) was taking shots at Hank or calling him out or anything. I think the point was that everyone is all over Bonds right now, perhaps they just need to take a step back and see how prevalent this stuff has been in baseball for a long time.

Unfortunately this is a topic that is going to keep coming up over and over again especially when it comes time for HOF voting.

But there is one thing I'm curious about... If Bonds ends up getting indicted, does that change anything for anyone who thinks Bonds is getting a raw deal?

[mweb]

Unfortunately this is a topic that is going to keep coming up over and over again especially when it comes time for HOF voting.

But there is one thing I'm curious about... If Bonds ends up getting indicted, does that change anything for anyone who thinks Bonds is getting a raw deal?

No, why would it? I already think he's used.

[geschinger]

No, why would it? I already think he's used.

I don't know... I'm trying to come to grasp some understanding w/the difference in opinions relative to players caught doing the same thing. Not necessarily you as I don't recall what your specific positions were but I do not remember any outrage about Rafael Pameiro being singled out and being made the poster boy for cheating. And this is an Orioles board where you think people would bend over backwards to support one of our own.

I don't recall seeing many opinions of people upset at the BBWAA for singling out McGwire and blasting him for cheating when the HOF was voting. I'm just trying to figure out why the treatment of Bonds seems to be more bothersome to many.

[66-70-83-??]

I don't know... I'm trying to come to grasp some understanding w/the difference in opinions relative to players caught doing the same thing. Not necessarily you as I don't recall what your specific positions were but I do not remember any outrage about Rafael Pameiro being singled out and being made the poster boy for cheating. And this is an Orioles board where you think people would bend over backwards to support one of our own.

I don't recall seeing many opinions of people upset at the BBWAA for singling out McGwire and blasting him for cheating when the HOF was voting. I'm just trying to figure out why the treatment of Bonds seems to be more bothersome to many.


I am puzzled by it too. :confused:

Palmeiro and McGwire were also much more likeable than Bonds.

[mweb]

I don't know... I'm trying to come to grasp some understanding w/the difference in opinions relative to players caught doing the same thing. Not necessarily you as I don't recall what your specific positions were but I do not remember any outrage about Rafael Pameiro being singled out and being made the poster boy for cheating. And this is an Orioles board where you think people would bend over backwards to support one of our own.

I don't recall seeing many opinions of people upset at the BBWAA for singling out McGwire and blasting him for cheating when the HOF was voting. I'm just trying to figure out why the treatment of Bonds seems to be more bothersome to many.

Mostly because this treatment of Bonds has been going on for much longer than the negative treatment for those guys, and it's been worse imo.

I think most here would support Big Mac and Raffy making the HOF, so I think people are fine with punishing them for a year or two, but if their not in 5 years from now, people will be more upset imo.

However, I do have a problem with how McGwire and Raffy have been treated as well. I just don't like how they along with Bonds have been singled out so much when it's been such an epidemic in baseball for so long. I understand that they've been caught(well not really with Mac, but basically), so that should be considered when talking about them, but many crucify these guys while acting like it's just an isolated problem, and acting like they aren't/haven't rooted for many many guys who have done the same thing.

Plus, even some guys we pretty much know about like Sheff, Giambi, Pudge, etc don't get nearly as bad a rap. Then there's guys who we have a good idea about, like the one's named in the Grimsley affidavit, I know it's not proven, but there should be a little more negativity around them.

With all that said, I think Raffy and Big Mac made their situations much worse by the way they handled it. If Raffy didn't waive his finger at congress saying he didn't do steroids, and then throw Tejada under the bus when he was caught, it would not have been nearly as bad for him. And Big Mac's performance in congress was a joke.

One more point concerning McGwire not being elected in his first year of eligibility, most seem to think he would not have been a HOFer without steroids, same with Sosa and Raffy. That's not the case with Bonds.

[YardBirds13]

Mostly because this treatment of Bonds has been going on for much longer than the negative treatment for those guys, and it's been worse imo.

I think most here would support Big Mac and Raffy making the HOF, so I think people are fine with punishing them for a year or two, but if their not in 5 years from now, people will be more upset imo.

However, I do have a problem with how McGwire and Raffy have been treated as well. I just don't like how they along with Bonds have been singled out so much when it's been such an epidemic in baseball for so long. I understand that they've been caught(well not really with Mac, but basically), so that should be considered when talking about them, but many crucify these guys while acting like it's just an isolated problem, and acting like they aren't/haven't rooted for many many guys who have done the same thing.

Plus, even some guys we pretty much know about like Sheff, Giambi, Pudge, etc don't get nearly as bad a rap. Then there's guys who we have a good idea about, like the one's named in the Grimsley affidavit, I know it's not proven, but there should be a little more negativity around them.

With all that said, I think Raffy and Big Mac made their situations much worse by the way they handled it. If Raffy didn't waive his finger at congress saying he didn't do steroids, and then throw Tejada under the bus when he was caught, it would not have been nearly as bad for him. And Big Mac's performance in congress was a joke.

Very well said mweb.

The throwing Tejada under the bus thing is what made me get pissed at Raffy, I didn't really care that much about the steroids thing. I mean, I thought he was really stupid for testing positive, but it certainly never made me hate him. Raffy was one of the Orioles I loved growing up on those 96-97 teams, and that positive test didn't change how I felt about him. It's throwing a teammate (especially Miggy) under the bus that really got me.

[Gurgi]

Bonds is hated for who he is and what he says and represents. His personality makes it hard to love him. He is the Ty Cobb of his era. He is just not a nice guy.

Add to it he is a cheat and you have the who issue.

[geschinger]

Mostly because this treatment of Bonds has been going on for much longer than the negative treatment for those guys, and it's been worse imo.


Only because he's been in the spotlight and approaching a milestone, no?

Do you think if McGwire or Palmeiro were still playing and going for 600 HR that we wouldn't also be hearing a ton of criticism about steroids?

[mweb]

Only because he's been in the spotlight and approaching a milestone, no?
Do you think if McGwire or Palmeiro were still playing and going for 600 HR that we wouldn't also be hearing a ton of criticism about steroids?

To a degree, but again, I think the way they handled themselves in Congress, and the way Raffy threw Miggy under the bus had a lot to do with how the media/public reacted to them.

I don't think there's going to be that much criticism when Sheff gets to 500, and people weren't all over him, Giambi, and IRod the way they have been with Bonds. Once Giambi came back in 2005 from his injuries, it was a story, but he was quickly forgiven by most.

But that wasn't the main part of my point anyway, I said I don't like how any of these guys gets singled out as much as they do.

I also don't like how people act like these guys are terrible for doing what they've done. I also don't care how people use the law to make points when this is the type of thing that is minor in terms of the law and only hurts the user. I don't like how so many assume most players were/are clean, same with specific players for that matter. I don't like how many people think everything was fair and just in the past, when it clearly wasn't. I don't like the talk of asteriks or the record being tainted either. Well I guess it's fine to talk about that as long as one realize's that all stats are tainted as the article in Avsfan's thread mentions.

[66-70-83-??]

To a degree, but again, I think the way they handled themselves in Congress, and the way Raffy threw Miggy under the bus had a lot to do with how the media/public reacted to them.

I don't think there's going to be that much criticism when Sheff gets to 500, and people weren't all over him, Giambi, and IRod the way they have been with Bonds. Once Giambi came back in 2005 from his injuries, it was a story, but he was quickly forgiven by most.

But that wasn't the main part of my point anyway, I said I don't like how any of these guys gets singled out as much as they do.

Why not ? :confused:

These are the players who we know for a fact have used steroids/PED's.

Bonds only has to look into the mirror to see the root of his problems.

He makes a conscious decision to treat people the way he does.

He could have the world in the palm of his hand if he wanted. He is reaping what he sowed.

[mweb]

Why not ? :confused:

These are the players who we know for a fact have used steroids/PED's.

Bonds only has to look into the mirror to see the root of his problems.

He makes a conscious decision to treat people the way he does.

He could have the world in the palm of his hand if he wanted. He is reaping what he sowed.

Pretty sure you'e already asked me that, and I've already answered it, but here goes...

Because around half of the players in the game have been using, maybe more, and because cheating has been a part of baseball since it started. When I say they shouldn't be singled out, I don't mean that you shouldn't point out that they've used steroids, but you shouldn't act like they're one of the few, or keep them out of the HOF, or put most of the focus/blame just on a few people.

[Leitch]

He is the Ty Cobb of his era.

You do realize that Ty Cobb stabbed a guy, right?