Ruth-Era Home Run Questions

[Anonymous]

This Bonds record chase got me wondering about how the record picture used to look way back when. If anyone has answers, I’ll be curious to hear. (Forgive me in advance for failing to post a thank you, as I’m about to head out for a rare vacation – and will be checking upon my return next week.)

- What was the HR career record total BEFORE Babe broke it? I would also ask who held it -- except I'm quite certain the name wouln't ring a bell of any sort.

- When Babe finished up at 714, who was # 2 and how many did he have?

- Who has the highest total among players whose career overlapped with the Babe? (I guess overlapped could be interpreted in either a trivial or non-trivial sense, as it’s possible someone had a cup of coffee at the end of Babe’s career. Any kind of response would be welcomed.)

[mweb]

I believe Harry Stovey (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/stoveha01.shtml)had it with 122 hr's. I might be mistaken on that, regardless, it was around that number.

Players actually looked down on trying to hit hr's back then.

Of course the numbers from those days are tainted because of the quality of competition was weak.

[66-70-83-??]

I believe Harry Stovey (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/stoveha01.shtml)had it with 122 hr's. I might be mistaken on that, regardless, it was around that number.

Players actually looked down on trying to hit hr's back then.

Of course the numbers from those days are tainted because of the quality of competition was weak.

LOL.

You are really on a crusade for Bonds. :D

He doesn't deserve the effort you are putting out for him.;)

First you were trying to make Bonds look better by tearing down Aaron. Now Ruth is tainted ? :(

Only one of three is a known cheater. Everything else is speculation about Aaron and Ruth.

Weaker competition ? Why ? Because black players weren't allowed to play ?

True, but that is offset by the bigger parks, leagues with only 8 teams (only really good pitchers cracked many fewer roster spots than today).

Bonds was one of the best all around players in history before he turned into the Hulk.

Babe is still the unquestioned best HR hitter. He hit more than many whole teams did. Even when Bonds hit 73, Sosa had 66.

[mweb]

LOL.

You are really on a crusade for Bonds. :D

He doesn't deserve the effort you are putting out for him.;)

First you were trying to make Bonds look better by tearing down Aaron. Now Ruth is tainted ? :(

Only one of three is a known cheater. Everything else is speculation about Aaron and Ruth.

Weaker competition ? Why ? Because black players weren't allowed to play ?

True, but that is offset by the bigger parks, leagues with only 8 teams (only really good pitchers cracked many fewer roster spots than today).

Bonds was one of the best all around players in history before he turned into the Hulk.

Babe is still the unquestioned best HR hitter. He hit more than many whole teams did. Even when Bonds hit 73, Sosa had 66.

Aaron is a known "cheater", he took greenies. The steroid part, who knows? I'm not trying to tear him down, just presenting information that most either haven't heard or choose to ignore.

I didn't say Ruth was a cheater at all. But yes, weaker competition in large part, because blacks and most hispanics were not allowed to play. If you look at the post Drungo made about Ruth, you probably wouldn't use the bigger parks argument. Your next point is easily offset by the huge increase in population since then. Plus pitchers didn't throw as hard in general, and didn't have as many pitches.

Yes, Babe was the best compared to his peers, however you have to consider that when he was out-homering entire teams, those teams weren't really trying to hit hr's. He revolutionized the game in that way.

I'm not on a crusade for Bonds, I'm using this record, and the reaction to it, to try to make a point about the history of baseball.

[Avsfan]

People have a hard time accepting certain things that have been de-bunked or questioned...after they've had it ingrained into their head for such a long time.

[mweb]

I believe Harry Stovey (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/stoveha01.shtml)had it with 122 hr's. I might be mistaken on that, regardless, it was around that number.

Players actually looked down on trying to hit hr's back then.

Of course the numbers from those days are tainted because of the quality of competition was weak.

Actually, Stovey, a former Oriole, did hold the record, but Roger Connor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/connoro01.shtml)surpassed him and ended up with 138. He was inducted into the HOF in 1976.

[66-70-83-??]

Aaron is a known "cheater", he took greenies. The steroid part, who knows? I'm not trying to tear him down, just presenting information that most either haven't heard or choose to ignore.

I didn't say Ruth was a cheater at all. But yes, weaker competition in large part, because blacks and most hispanics were not allowed to play. If you look at the post Drungo made about Ruth, you probably wouldn't use the bigger parks argument. Your next point is easily offset by the huge increase in population since then. Plus pitchers didn't throw as hard in general, and didn't have as many pitches.

Yes, Babe was the best compared to his peers, however you have to consider that when he was out-homering entire teams, those teams weren't really trying to hit hr's. He revolutionized the game in that way.

I'm not on a crusade for Bonds, I'm using this record, and the reaction to it, to try to make a point about the history of baseball.

There is no comparison between "greenies" and steroids.

RF down the line was 295' but CF in Yankee Stadium was 490' !

Not "trying" to hit HR's ? Yeah, right. They couldn't.

Bonds vs Ruth. There is no comparison. Bonds is the all-time HR king, but Ruth is the better HR hitter and overall hitter.

[Avsfan]

Ruth is the better HR hitter and overall hitter.

Even though Bond's 2004 season might be the greatest single offensive season in the history of the game?

[mweb]

There is no comparison between "greenies" and steroids.

RF down the line was 295' but CF in Yankee Stadium was 490' !

Not "trying" to hit HR's ? Yeah, right. They couldn't.

Bonds vs Ruth. There is no comparison. Bonds is the all-time HR king, but Ruth is the better HR hitter and overall hitter.

Why isn't there a comparision? They were both illegal PED's. Just because steroids may help someone more?

Bonds plays in one of the most difficult parks to hit hr's in.

Most players back then didn't think hitting hr's was the right was to do things. If you think players were trying to hit hr's before, explain how they all of a sudden started hitting them right after Ruth made it the thing to do?

Ruth was a better hitter compared to his peers imo, but Bonds was a better defender and baserunner. Obviously Ruth has the pitching angle as well. BTW, Bonds BRAA for his career is 1,460, Ruth's is 1,480, if adjusted for all time, Bonds as a near 100 run edge. Bonds career WARP3: 241.6. Ruth: 237.6.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Roger Conner had 138 home runs for his career before Ruth passed him in 1921 (according to BaseballReference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/HR_progress.shtml)

Also from that site, Gehrig was the active leader after Ruth retired, so he would be second.

[66-70-83-??]

Why isn't there a comparision? They were both illegal PED's. Just because steroids may help someone more?

Bonds plays in one of the most difficult parks to hit hr's in.

Most players back then didn't think hitting hr's was the right was to do things. If you think players were trying to hit hr's before, explain how they all of a sudden started hitting them right after Ruth made it the thing to do?

Ruth was a better hitter compared to his peers imo, but Bonds was a better defender and baserunner. Obviously Ruth has the pitching angle as well. BTW, Bonds BRAA for his career is 1,460, Ruth's is 1,480, if adjusted for all time, Bonds as a near 100 run edge. Bonds career WARP3: 241.6. Ruth: 237.6.

I wouldn't put much stock in BP's proprietary stats such as WARP3 and BAA.

There are other well known transparent stats that can be used. Here are two that give Ruth the edge-RC/27 and Win Shares that are listed below in a comparison of the two that I recently read:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/story.html?id=70aa50d3-bf2b-4355-a823-d6f9d39bade8

"You can't hit what you can't see".

1920 was the year that Ray Chapman was killed by a Carl Mays fastball. That changed things overnight.

Before then, players used dirt, liquorice, and chewing tobacco to make the balls as dark as possible so it was harder for the hitter to pick up. Also, spitballs were still legal (banned in 1921).

This all changed overnight after Chapman was killed. Fresh baseballs were now being put into play routinely (1920). Then in 1925, a "cushioned-cork" baseball was introduced that was a little livelier.

Homerun outputs went up overall but Ruth still outpaced everyone by a lot.

[Avsfan]

I wouldn't put much stock in BP's proprietary stats such as WARP3 and BAA.

There are other well known transparent stats that can be used. Here are two that give Ruth the edge-RC/27 and Win Shares that are listed below in a comparison of the two that I recently read:


Ok...and Ruth never had an RC/27 over 18.....Bonds did it twice.

[mweb]

I wouldn't put much stock in BP's proprietary stats such as WARP3 and BAA.

There are other well known transparent stats that can be used. Here are two that give Ruth the edge-RC/27 and Win Shares that are listed below in a comparison of the two that I recently read:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/story.html?id=70aa50d3-bf2b-4355-a823-d6f9d39bade8

"You can't hit what you can't see".

1920 was the year that Ray Chapman was killed by a Carl Mays fastball. That changed things overnight.

Before then, players used dirt, liquorice, and chewing tobacco to make the balls as dark as possible so it was harder for the hitter to pick up. Also, spitballs were still legal (banned in 1921).

This all changed overnight after Chapman was killed. Fresh baseballs were now being put into play routinely (1920). Then in 1925, a "cushioned-cork" baseball was introduced that was a little livelier.

Homerun outputs went up overall but Ruth still outpaced everyone by a lot.

That's fine that those two stats support Ruth, I'm not telling you Bonds is better.

Ruth was ahead of the curve in terms of hr's, he started hitting them at unbelievable rates for the time, and then others started catching up. Hornsby lead MLB in hr's in 1922 with 42, in '23, Cy Williams tied Ruth with 41, and then guys like Gehrig, Hack Wilson, and Foxx came along. Ruth was still incredible vs his peers, and I love the fact that he out-homered entire teams. However, once others caught up to the curve, the advantage wasn't absurd like it was those first 2 years.

[RShack]

Aaron is a known "cheater", he took greenies.
Your entire premise seems to be that past players eating greenies equals "cheating". But you're just making that up now, and applying it retroactively. For decades, greenies were a normal and accepted part of the game. Everybody had an idea what greenies are and do, and they were accepted in the same way that other aspects of the training room were accepted. Now, all-the-sudden, they're not. It's all a reaction to 'roids. It's crazy to take this new greenies-are-bad attitude and go back and rewrite history with it. Aaron may well have taken greenies, but that does not mean the man cheated.
.

[mweb]

Your entire premise seems to be that past players eating greenies equals "cheating". But you're just making that up now, and applying it retroactively. For decades, greenies were a normal and accepted part of the game. Everybody had an idea what greenies are and do, and they were accepted in the same way that other aspects of the training room were accepted. Now, all-the-sudden, they're not. It's all a reaction to 'roids. It's crazy to take this new greenies-are-bad attitude and go back and rewrite history with it. Aaron may well have taken greenies, but that does not mean the man cheated.
.

Steroids were pretty much accepted in baseball too.

[66-70-83-??]

Steroids were pretty much accepted in baseball too.

Steroids were used but not "accepted" in the way that greenies are.
And for good reason: Steroids are much different drugs than "greenies".
Greenies vs Steroids are apples and oranges. Why do you try to always lump them together ?

Also, greenies were available openly in all of Bonds clubhouses too (until last year). It isn't like they weren't as accessible to Bonds. So Bonds was every bit as likely to have used them as Aaron.

There were bowls of greenies sitting out in the open like candy dishes in the clubhouse and/or pots of coffee labelled "leaded" (spiked with greenies).

There was never a tray of loaded syringes lying out in the open. Players didnt juice in plain view. I doubt they talked openly about. It was all "hush hush"- Baseball's dirty little secret.

[RayFink1e]

The greatest stat Ruth has is that he had more HR's then some teams. Amazing

[Mark Carver]

Babe Ruth

1 HR every 11.76 AB
1 HR every 14.87 PA

Barry Bonds

1 HR every 12.91 AB
1 HR every 16.55 PA

Hank Aaron

1 HR every 16.38 AB
1 HR every 18.46 PA

[Mark Carver]

Ok...and Ruth never had an RC/27 over 18.....Bonds did it twice.

Ok... Runs Created (H + BB) * (TB) / (AB + BB), Single Season Leader

1) Ruth - 233, 1921
2) Ruth - 216, 1923
3) Gehrig - 211, 1927
4) Bonds - 210, 2001
5) Ruth (tied) - 206, 1920
8) Ruth - 203, 1927
9) Ruth - 199, 1924

[DrungoHazewood]

Steering this back to the original question and away from our 485th steroid showdown of the month...


- Who has the highest total among players whose career overlapped with the Babe? (I guess overlapped could be interpreted in either a trivial or non-trivial sense, as it’s possible someone had a cup of coffee at the end of Babe’s career. Any kind of response would be welcomed.)

The answer is Sudlerville, Maryland's own Jimmie Foxx (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/foxxji01.shtml). About half his career was coincident with the Babe's, and he ended up with 534 career homers.

Mel Ott, who played almost the same years as Foxx, ended up with 511. He's the only other player from Ruth's years to pass 500 homers. He hit nearly 3/4ths of his career homers in the Polo Grounds which were about 250 ft down the line, easily the highest percentage of home dingers among the 500 club.

And not to downplay the Babe's accomplishments, since he was a true home run pioneer, but within a few years of his initial accomplishments Foxx, Ott, Hornsby, Gehrig, Hack Wilson, and others had very Ruth-like years. Ruth was the first to hit lots of homers, but even during his career he was hardly unique.

[DrungoHazewood]

Babe Ruth

1 HR every 3.50 AB
1 HR every 14.87 PA

Barry Bonds

1 HR every 3.91 AB
1 HR every 16.55 PA

Hank Aaron

1 HR every 4.37 AB
1 HR every 18.46 PA

I think you've made some kind of typo. Clearly none of those guys hit a homer once per 3.5 or 3.9 at bats. Ruth's real number is one homer per 11.76 AB. Were you going for HR/H? Even that doesn't seem quite right.

[Mark Carver]

I think you've made some kind of typo. Clearly none of those guys hit a homer once per 3.5 or 3.9 at bats. Ruth's real number is one homer per 11.76 AB. Were you going for HR/H? Even that doesn't seem quite right.

No, I was going for At Bats, just read the wrong column... I picked up the numbers of games played instead of ABs.

[EddieO's21]

Aaron is a known "cheater", he took greenies. The steroid part, who knows? I'm not trying to tear him down, just presenting information that most either haven't heard or choose to ignore.

I didn't say Ruth was a cheater at all. But yes, weaker competition in large part, because blacks and most hispanics were not allowed to play. If you look at the post Drungo made about Ruth, you probably wouldn't use the bigger parks argument. Your next point is easily offset by the huge increase in population since then. Plus pitchers didn't throw as hard in general, and didn't have as many pitches.

Yes, Babe was the best compared to his peers, however you have to consider that when he was out-homering entire teams, those teams weren't really trying to hit hr's. He revolutionized the game in that way.

I'm not on a crusade for Bonds, I'm using this record, and the reaction to it, to try to make a point about the history of baseball.

what your forgetting is that for the first part of his career, Ruth was a pitcher and hit very few HR's. If he was a true batter for his whole career he would be over Aarron and Bonds easy.

[RShack]

what your forgetting is that for the first part of his career, Ruth was a pitcher and hit very few HR's. If he was a true batter for his whole career he would be over Aarron and Bonds easy.
Ummm... dunno about that... I think it was way harder for anybody to hit HRs early in his career... I think one thing that correlates with the sudden 1920's upturn in HR's is the clean-ball policy... after a guy got killed by a beanball at dusk, they started using only clean white balls... which made them lighter... and they started flying out of the park...

I don't know how to weigh this one factor against all the others, but I think it belongs in there somewhere...

[DrungoHazewood]

what your forgetting is that for the first part of his career, Ruth was a pitcher and hit very few HR's. If he was a true batter for his whole career he would be over Aarron and Bonds easy.

You're forgetting that for 100% of his career Ruth played in a league that had only primitive ways of finding and acquiring the best players in the country, didn't have any minorities (ok, a few light-skinned Cubans), and didn't draw any significant talent from overseas. There's a very good argument to be made that Ruth played in a league that was somewhere around the quality of today's AAA, or maybe Japan. In that context Aaron and Bonds might have approached 1000 homers. Sadaharu Oh hit 868 homers in a league that was probably a tick or two below Ruth's AL.

[mweb]

Steroids were used but not "accepted" in the way that greenies are.
And for good reason: Steroids are much different drugs than "greenies".
Greenies vs Steroids are apples and oranges. Why do you try to always lump them together ?

Also, greenies were available openly in all of Bonds clubhouses too (until last year). It isn't like they weren't as accessible to Bonds. So Bonds was every bit as likely to have used them as Aaron.

There were bowls of greenies sitting out in the open like candy dishes in the clubhouse and/or pots of coffee labelled "leaded" (spiked with greenies).

There was never a tray of loaded syringes lying out in the open. Players didnt juice in plain view. I doubt they talked openly about. It was all "hush hush"- Baseball's dirty little secret.

Both illegal, both improve performance, and both widely used, that's why they're lumped together. Is one worse than the other, probably, but I don't see how you can consider one cheating and not the other. I'm not condemning Aaron or any of those other players who have used greenies, I'm just trying to show that many players throughout baseball history have taken illegal PED's, so lets consider that when ripping Bonds.

[mweb]

what your forgetting is that for the first part of his career, Ruth was a pitcher and hit very few HR's. If he was a true batter for his whole career he would be over Aarron and Bonds easy.

I'm not forgetting that at all, I'm well aware of it. Yes, if he didn't pitch, he'd have quite a few more hr's.

[Mackus]

Both illegal, both improve performance, and both widely used that's why they're lumped together. Is one worse than the other, probably, but I don't see how you can consider one cheating and not the other. I'm not condemning Aaron or any of those other players who have used greenies, I'm just trying to show that many players throughout baseball history have taken illegal PED's, so lets consider that when ripping Bonds.Yeah steroids and greenies are both cheating. Steroids were definitely worse, but anybody who calls a steroid-user a cheater and refuses to call a greenie-user a cheater is being incredibly hypocritical.

[Sports Guy]

Yeah steroids and greenies are both cheating. Steroids were definitely worse, but anybody who calls a steroid-user a cheater and refuses to call a greenie-user a cheater is being incredibly hypocritical.

It is all cheating....ALL OF IT!

But that doesn't matter...All that matters is Bonds...Anyone denying that is totally fooling themselves.

[66-70-83-??]

Both illegal, both improve performance, and both widely used, that's why they're lumped together. Is one worse than the other, probably, but I don't see how you can consider one cheating and not the other. I'm not condemning Aaron or any of those other players who have used greenies, I'm just trying to show that many players throughout baseball history have taken illegal PED's, so lets consider that when ripping Bonds.

True. Both do improve performance. Greenies are like a big dose of caffeine and help ward off fatigue. Steroids do a lot more.

Aaron likely took greenies, but not steroids. He also didn't wear body armor.

Bonds took greenies, steroids, hgh, and had body armor.

Body armor hasn't got much attention as performance enhancing, but it probably helps more than we think. Just from a confidence factor. There is no fear standing over the plate knowing that a fastball to the elbow won't hurt or put you on the DL.

MLB did Bonds a favor and exempted Bonds from the new body armor rules.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/0318/1353635.html


From BP article in 2002:


Since armored hitters don't need to fear pain or injury from getting hit in the arm, they crowd the plate, stand in confidently on pitches on the inside corner, and mash pitches on the outside corner. The result: (gasp!) better hitting and more offense.


What's not fair is the new system of selective "medical exemptions" MLB plans to give to some hitters, such as the one Barry Bonds has already received.


what we're likely to get is a set of Jordan Rules for MLB where stars and guys who had minor elbow surgery a decade ago will get to wear the armor, and everyone else will have to live with the pain.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1408

From SI article


"There's no fear factor involved any more, and that's always been a part of baseball," Brenly said. "I'm talking the Bob Gibsons and Bob Fellers of the world. Fear always has been a part of this game. When you take that out of the equation and allow hitters to hang out over the plate, and pull pitches that are off the outside corner, then I think we've lost something in this game."


Barry Bonds, of course, is the biggest practitioner of the suit-up-and-stand-close method of hitting. Pitchers have complained for years that his front elbow -- the right one, with the heavy padding -- is actually over the plate, so a strike on the inside corner is in danger of hitting him.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/john_donovan/05/20/body.armor/

[Sports Guy]

True. Both do improve performance. Greenies are like a big dose of caffeine and help ward off fatigue. Steroids do a lot more.

Aaron likely took greenies, but not steroids. He also didn't wear body armor.

Bonds took greenies, steroids, hgh, and had body armor.

Body armor hasn't got much attention as performance enhancing, but it probably helps more than we think. Just from a confidence factor. There is no fear standing over the plate knowing that a fastball to the elbow won't hurt or put you on the DL.

MLB did Bonds a favor and exempted Bonds from the new body armor rules.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/0318/1353635.html


From BP article in 2002:







http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1408

From SI article





http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/john_donovan/05/20/body.armor/

Yep and both are illegal...The rest is window dressing.

[DrungoHazewood]

True. Both do improve performance. Greenies are like a big dose of caffeine and help ward off fatigue. Steroids do a lot more.

If amphetamines were just the same as a few cups of coffee, why would anyone in their right mind take them by the handful knowing full well they were illegal?

Neither you nor I can quantify what steriods do for a hitter, nor how much of that is nullified by pitchers taking the same things.


Aaron likely took greenies, but not steroids. He also didn't wear body armor.

Bonds took greenies, steroids, hgh, and had body armor.

Body armor hasn't got much attention as performance enhancing, but it probably helps more than we think...

Bonds' elbow protector could be worn by anyone who applied for an exemption from MLB. Lots of other players, such as everybody's little hero Craig Biggio, wear similar things.

[66-70-83-??]

Yep and both are illegal...The rest is window dressing.

You are correct.

Kind of like how driving 30 mph in a 25 mph zone and grand theft auto are both illegal. :rolleyes:

[DrungoHazewood]

You are correct.

Kind of like how driving 30 mph in a 25 mph zone and grand theft auto are both illegal. :rolleyes:

The steroid overreactors seem to think taking handfuls of amphetamines daily for 30 years is like going 56 in a 55, while trying steroids a few times is like murder.

[66-70-83-??]

If amphetamines were just the same as a few cups of coffee, why would anyone in their right mind take them by the handful knowing full well they were illegal?

Neither you nor I can quantify what steriods do for a hitter, nor how much of that is nullified by pitchers taking the same things.

Greenies act quicker and longer without the side effects of drinking lots of coffee.

No, I can't quantify what steroids do for a hitter. Why would so many world class athletes take these illegal substances with often severe and sometimes unknown (designer steroids) health consequences if they didn't help a lot ?



Bonds' elbow protector could be worn by anyone who applied for an exemption from MLB. Lots of other players, such as everybody's little hero Craig Biggio, wear similar things.

Simply not true. Or else you would see most players wearing it.

Too many were wearing it and that was the reason for MLB's rule changes in 2002. Biggio and Bonds were among a handful that recieved the exemption.

Now, there has to be a medical reason with a note from a doctor allowing it.

It might not be difficult to obtain, but it isn't automatic.

In order to wear a pad longer than 10 inches, a player will need to show a medical reason for it.


"There's probably seven or eight guys that will apply for that," Watson said. "All of that has to be done with doctors' notes and has to be sanctioned by my office."

[mweb]

True. Both do improve performance. Greenies are like a big dose of caffeine and help ward off fatigue. Steroids do a lot more.

Aaron likely took greenies, but not steroids. He also didn't wear body armor.

Bonds took greenies, steroids, hgh, and had body armor.

Body armor hasn't got much attention as performance enhancing, but it probably helps more than we think. Just from a confidence factor. There is no fear standing over the plate knowing that a fastball to the elbow won't hurt or put you on the DL.

MLB did Bonds a favor and exempted Bonds from the new body armor rules.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/0318/1353635.html


From BP article in 2002:







http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1408

From SI article





http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/john_donovan/05/20/body.armor/

I think there's a decent chance Aaron took steroids towards the end of his career. There is certainly reason to be suspicious.

I think you're underestimating greenies. This article (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/sports/epaper/2006/04/02/PBP_AMPHET_0402.html) suggests it had a very big effect on baseball. Some quotes:

"Players use amphetamines to be the player they can't be when they're tired," said the veteran, who asked that his name not be used.

"It's going to have a lot bigger effect on the game than steroid testing," said Chipper Jones, the Atlanta Braves' All-Star third baseman. "It's more rampant than steroids. ... I think the fringe players will be weeded out."

"The manager comes to you and what are you going to say?... 'Oh, no, sorry. I can't go today.' I used it on days when I felt shut down, to keep my name in the lineup," he said. "You're going to see a lot of guys asking the manager for a day off."

"The way a lot of guys think is... advance your career, make your money, take care of your family, follow your dream and pay the consequences later with your health," he(Javy Lopez) said.

But again, sure some guys have had more of an advantage than others, but if you consider one cheating, you have to consider the other to be cheating.

I'm not a fan of the body armour, but it isn't against the rules, so that doesn't really have anything to do with this.

[mweb]

You are correct.

Kind of like how driving 30 mph in a 25 mph zone and grand theft auto are both illegal. :rolleyes:

Except nothing like that.:rolleyes: Taking greenies vs taking steroids is essentially breaking the same law with similiar ramifications to one who uses them.

[66-70-83-??]

I think there's a decent chance Aaron took steroids towards the end of his career. There is certainly reason to be suspicious.

I think you're underestimating greenies. This article (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/sports/epaper/2006/04/02/PBP_AMPHET_0402.html) suggests it had a very big effect on baseball. Some quotes:

"Players use amphetamines to be the player they can't be when they're tired," said the veteran, who asked that his name not be used.

"It's going to have a lot bigger effect on the game than steroid testing," said Chipper Jones, the Atlanta Braves' All-Star third baseman. "It's more rampant than steroids. ... I think the fringe players will be weeded out."

"The manager comes to you and what are you going to say?... 'Oh, no, sorry. I can't go today.' I used it on days when I felt shut down, to keep my name in the lineup," he said. "You're going to see a lot of guys asking the manager for a day off."

"The way a lot of guys think is... advance your career, make your money, take care of your family, follow your dream and pay the consequences later with your health," he(Javy Lopez) said.

But again, sure some guys have had more of an advantage than others, but if you consider one cheating, you have to consider the other to be cheating.

I'm not a fan of the body armour, but it isn't against the rules, so that doesn't really have anything to do with this.

There is no evidence that Aaron took steroids or HGH.

There is evidence that Bonds took steroids and HGH.

Greenies are a wash since both took them.

At the end of the day, Bonds is #1 with 757 Home Runs. But, he did have several advantages that Aaron didn't have (body armor, hgh, roids).

So, in my mind, there is enough doubt about the authenticity of Bonds home runs that I won't consider him as good a home run hitter as Ruth or Aaron. And Maris' 61 HR's is looking a lot better right now than McGwire, Sosa, or Bonds.

Just like Rose having the most hits doesn't make him the best hitter.

Maybe time and/or more evidence will come out and I will change my mind about Bonds. But, right now, I just can't. Call me a "steroid overreactor" or whatever else...... It doesn't matter.

[66-70-83-??]

Except nothing like that.:rolleyes: Taking greenies vs taking steroids is essentially breaking the same law with similiar ramifications to one who uses them.

True.

But, there are degrees of cheating in my opinion.

I took greenies before, a long time ago. I know what they are about.

I have never took roids. But, I know a few who have. And I have read and seen what the abuse of them can do.

And there is no comparison in that regard, in my opinion.

[mweb]

There is no evidence that Aaron took steroids or HGH.

There is evidence that Bonds took steroids and HGH.

Greenies are a wash since both took them.

At the end of the day, Bonds is #1 with 757 Home Runs. But, he did have several advantages that Aaron didn't have (body armor, hgh, roids).

So, in my mind, there is enough doubt about the authenticity of Bonds home runs that I won't consider him as good a home run hitter as Ruth or Aaron. And Maris' 61 HR's is looking a lot better right now than McGwire, Sosa, or Bonds.

Just like Rose having the most hits doesn't make him the best hitter.

Maybe time and/or more evidence will come out and I will change my mind about Bonds. But, right now, I just can't. Call me a "steroid overreactor" or whatever else...... It doesn't matter.


There is circumstantial evidence that would suggest Aaron might have taken steroids, but obviously there is no hard evidence of that.

I couldn't care less if you think Aaron is the better HR hitter, I just don't care for people saying this record is so tainted while refusing to acknowledge that basically all numbers are tainted in someway or the other, and refusing to acknowledge that cheating, including using illegal supplements has been going on for a very long time in baseball, and guys like Aaron aren't nearly as pure as assumed.

[mweb]

True.

But, there are degrees of cheating in my opinion.

I took greenies before, a long time ago. I know what they are about.

I have never took roids. But, I know a few who have. And I have read and seen what the abuse of them can do.

And there is no comparison in that regard, in my opinion.

If you're speaking of the abuse to one's body in a negative way, which I assume you're, I don't think many care about that part of this debate. People couldn't care less if Barry dies a few years early or whatever the case may be. They care that he took something illegal to give him an edge in baseball, and now has the most hollowed record in baseball. They care because steroids are screwing up the integrity of the game as BTerp said.

[DrungoHazewood]

Simply not true. Or else you would see most players wearing it.

Too many were wearing it and that was the reason for MLB's rule changes in 2002. Biggio and Bonds were among a handful that recieved the exemption.

Now, there has to be a medical reason with a note from a doctor allowing it.

It might not be difficult to obtain, but it isn't automatic.

In order to wear a pad longer than 10 inches, a player will need to show a medical reason for it.

Or most players don't see the benefit of wearing a big, bulky arm pad so they don't go to the trouble.