Perfect Example Of Tejada Losing a Game!

[Eli Eon]

by botching a routine inning ending double play that , Hernandez, Fahey, hell, even Bynum makes easily. Opens the floodgates to a big inning. Now does everyone see what I was talking about? So what about his grand slam, his fielding blunder has wiped it out and then some. Anyway, he would have still hit the salami as a DH or LFer. This just kills me watching this. It should not happen with a decent fielding SS like Hernandez. Please bring him back up McPhail and get him out there!!:mad: This caused FIVE runs to scored that otherwise never happen! Now the bullpen will get overworked no doubt as well. This is horrible!!:( A good SS mays that play in his sleep@%$#@!! Poor defense at the SS position is inexcusable. No amount of offense will make up for this. We just saw that 5 runs on a terrible bothed DP scored wiping out completely a GRAND SLAM! Give me fielding at SS anyday!!!

[TyCobb]

I love you blame Tejada for the 5 runs in the 6th and not the lately awful Walker.

[Ripken23]

That was bad and now the pounding is on. We can't be the Mariners for some reason this year. Pitiful.

[Ripken23]

I have a bad feeling that the O's are going to pack it up for the rest of the year like they have the past couple of years. It is starting to get way past depressing.

[Eli Eon]

I love you blame Tejada for the 5 runs in the 6th and not the lately awful Walker.

Walker wouldn't even have been in that inning if Tejada makes a DP that most high school SS's turn easily!

[makoman]

And the pitchers who allowed all those hits are blameless....

Here we go again :rolleyes:

[BaltBird 24]

I'm indifferent on the Tejada at SS issue, but if we had Fahey or Hernandez as our starting SS I'd probably drive down to Baltimore and attempt to burn down the Warehouse. Tejada can make 30 errors a game and still be more welcome at SS than those two.

[Eli Eon]

And the pitchers who allowed all those hits are blameless....

Here we go again :rolleyes:

Again, he makes a simple, easy, basic play and the inning over and DC is probably pitching the next inning. It demoralizes a team and its pitching staff to see horrible plays like that which are inexcusable.:mad:

[Eli Eon]

I'm indifferent on the Tejada at SS issue, but if we had Fahey or Hernandez as our starting SS I'd probably drive down to Baltimore and attempt to burn down the Warehouse. Tejada can make 30 errors a game and still be more welcome at SS than those two.

Well he just made one that resulted in 5 runs scoring after what easily should have been an inning ending DP ball. That is one back breaking error and a game loser!:( I have seen far too much of this out of Tejada. He just doesn't cut it fielding the position anymore. I have argued and argued this point and now it is easily apparent by just watching how crummy the defense has been since he has come back. The difference is night and day!

[BaltBird 24]

The ball took a bad hop, it happens to the best of us. Replacing him with two guys who would be better off serving you at your local McDonald's isn't going to make things any better.

[Trace21230]

The ball took a bad hop, it happens to the best of us. Replacing him with two guys who would be better off serving you at your local McDonald's isn't going to make things any better.
Hmmm, I wonder how many people with MLB talent are working at McDonald's. I bet zero.

I guess the groundball Miggy couldn't get to in the fourth that allowed the tying run to score was a bad hop too.

He sure has a lot of bad hops, a lot more than Hernandez or Gomez did, that's for sure. I guess he's just unlucky that way.

[Sports Guy]

And the pitchers who allowed all those hits are blameless....

Here we go again :rolleyes:

The ignore feature is a great part of the hangout.

[BaltBird 24]

Hmmm, I wonder how many people with MLB talent are working at McDonald's. I bet zero.


Who said that they have MLB talent? I know Matt Harrington worked at a Target stocking shelves.

[Eli Eon]

The ball took a bad hop, it happens to the best of us. Replacing him with two guys who would be better off serving you at your local McDonald's isn't going to make things any better.

There was no bad hop! It was a routine grounder like the ones taken during infield practice. Nothing at all difficult. No excuse for that botched DP. Even the announcers have been ragging on Tejada for it because it was the game!

Note: for all you stats people, there ought to be an informal stat kept, when you cause an error that would have ended an inning with no runs scoring and since it doesn't, whatever runs score after that get deducted from the error maker's RBI total! This would give a true picture of how much a player's defensive blunders hurt the overall performance of the player! Tejada's defense is killing this team!!!:eek: :mad:

[Eli Eon]

Hmmm, I wonder how many people with MLB talent are working at McDonald's. I bet zero.

I guess the groundball Miggy couldn't get to in the fourth that allowed the tying run to score was a bad hop too.

He sure has a lot of bad hops, a lot more than Hernandez or Gomez did, that's for sure. I guess he's just unlucky that way.

No, the Orioles and we Orioles fans are unlucky to have to watch his crummy fielding at the position which is causing untold lossses that shouldn't be!:rolleyes: :eek:

[Pedro Cerrano]

There was no bad hope. It was a routine grounder like the ones taken during infield practice. Nothing at all difficult. No excuse for that botched DP. Even the announcers have been ragging on Tejada for it because it was the game!

Note: for all you stats people, there ought to be an informal stat kept, when you cause an error that would have ended an inning with no runs scoring and since it doesn't, whatever runs score after that get deducted from the error maker's RBI total! This would give a true picture of how much a player's defensive blunders hurt the overall performance of the player! Tejada's defense is killing this team!!!:eek: :mad:

So you'd rather have Fahey or Bynum on this team than Tejada?

[The Wedge]

Caused cancer again, did he?

[EddieO's21]

There was no bad hop! It was a routine grounder like the ones taken during infield practice. Nothing at all difficult. No excuse for that botched DP. Even the announcers have been ragging on Tejada for it because it was the game!

Note: for all you stats people, there ought to be an informal stat kept, when you cause an error that would have ended an inning with no runs scoring and since it doesn't, whatever runs score after that get deducted from the error maker's RBI total! This would give a true picture of how much a player's defensive blunders hurt the overall performance of the player! Tejada's defense is killing this team!!!:eek: :mad:

agreed on the defensive part...however, where would they be without his GS earlier??

[Pedro Cerrano]

Caused cancer again, did he?

"He had sex with my Momma!! Why God why?!?!!"

*Props to anyone who can get THAT reference

[Eli Eon]

So you'd rather have Fahey or Bynum on this team than Tejada?

I would rather have Hernandez or Fahey playing SS. Tejada should be moved to LF, DH, or traded! His defense is awful to behold, and I am tired of it!!!:mad:

[Pedro Cerrano]

I would rather have Hernandez or Fahey playing SS. Tejada should be moved to LF, DH, or traded! His defense is awful to behold, and I am tired of it!!!:mad:

What if I told you Miguel Tejada was an above-average defensive SS who, like every other player in MLB, makes a mistake every now and then.

[The Wedge]

What if I told you Miguel Tejada was an above-average defensive SS who, like every other player in MLB, makes a mistake every now and then.

You'd be telling him something that about 50 other people have told him. You can't tell him any different than "what he knows." Fools errand.

[Eli Eon]

agreed on the defensive part...however, where would they be without his GS earlier??

His defensive blunder more than wiped out the salami, so it was rendered meaninless other than to pad his offensive stats. He could have hit it and with another better guy playing short the Mariners would have 5 fewer runs on the board!:eek: :rolleyes:

[Eli Eon]

What if I told you Miguel Tejada was an above-average defensive SS who, like every other player in MLB, makes a mistake every now and then.


He botches too many double play balls like tonite. Maybe I will have to start documenting them along with the games they cause to be lost as apparently people chose not to believe what is going on on the field with Mr. IRON GLOVE Tejada!:(

[BaltBird 24]

What makes you think that a guy who has played nothing but SS his entire career can just up and move to LF?

[Pedro Cerrano]

His defensive blunder more than wiped out the salami, so it was rendered meaninless other than to pad his offensive stats. He could have hit it and with another better guy playing short the Mariners would have 5 fewer runs on the board!:eek: :rolleyes:

Yes because NOBODY ELSE IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD EVER MAKES AN ERROR!!!!!

Gah. Why do I even bother?

[Eli Eon]

You'd be telling him something that about 50 other people have told him. You can't tell him any different than "what he knows." Fools errand.

Keep telling yourself Wedge, that I am a fool and Tejada's defense is fine. Along with Santa Claus is real and so is the Easter Bunny!
:p

[Sports Guy]

Yes because NOBODY ELSE IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD EVER MAKES AN ERROR!!!!!

Gah. Why do I even bother?
Stop....I am telling you..Just put him on ignore....He is flat out wrong but doesn't care...He thinks the sky is green too.

[Eli Eon]

What makes you think that a guy who has played nothing but SS his entire career can just up and move to LF?

Anybody can play LF. It is where teams usually hide their worst fielder. (Refer to Manny Ramirez, Boston Red Sox!;)

[Pedro Cerrano]

He botches too many double play balls like tonite. Maybe I will have to start documenting them along with the games they cause to be lost as apparently people chose not to believe what is going on on the field with Mr. IRON GLOVE Tejada!:(

Ok, go ahead and also document the good plays he makes. Oh wait, I doubt we see you post when he ranges into the hole and fires a strike to first to rob a base-hit.

You only point things out when they go bad.

Hey, it's ok. I openly admit that I only pile on Chris Ray when he stinks but most of the time, when I pile on him, it's because of his own doing. Tejada is not only the reason we were in this game to begin with but it's not like our pitchers could pick him up after the error by actually, you know, getting guys out.

[Eli Eon]

Stop....I am telling you..Just put him on ignore....He is flat out wrong but doesn't care...He thinks the sky is green too.

Okay, I am wrong, Tejada didn't just botch a routine inning ending double play which opened up the flood gates for 5 runs to score that never should have happened.:rolleyes: It never happens and he never does this. Plus, if he does his offense more than compensate as in his 6 run grand slam tonite!:eek:

(Sarcasim meter off the scale here)!

[Pedro Cerrano]

Ichiro just missed making a jumping catch in CF to retire Nick Markakis. Now it wasn't an error, but if Willie Mays was back there, maybe the Mariners wouldn't have to deal with a lead-off triple.

What can I say? Ichiro sucks at defense, and his offense doesn't make up for it!!! Seattle should totally DH him or move him to first base or something.

[ScottieBaseball]

Anybody can play LF. It is where teams usually hide their worst fielder. (Refer to Manny Ramirez, Boston Red Sox!;)

You just blew what little credibility you had with that very statement. For Boston, the trade off is a fair one...what Ramirez lacks defensively he makes up for at the plate.

Tejada is a heckuva better shortstop than Ramirez is a left fielder.

Let me guess...back in the mid-80's, it was Eddie Murray's fault, right? In the 90's it was Cal's fault. Now, Miguel Tejada finds himself a victim the, "When all else fails, blame the best player on the team!" mindset.

[Mashed Potatoes]

Stop....I am telling you..Just put him on ignore....He is flat out wrong but doesn't care...He thinks the sky is green too.

I'm taking this advice. Congratulations Eli Eon, you are the first poster I've ever put on ignore.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Miggy has 5 RBI tongiht. He's almost made up for the error which caused all those runs to score which were not Walker's fault at all.

[Sports Guy]

You just blew what little credibility you had with that very statement. For Boston, the trade off is a fair one...what Ramirez lacks defensively he makes up for at the plate.

Tejada is a heckuva better shortstop than Ramirez is a left fielder.

Let me guess...back in the mid-80's, it was Eddie Murray's fault, right? In the 90's it was Cal's fault. Now, Miguel Tejada finds himself a victim the, "When all else fails, blame the best player on the team!" mindset.

Scottie...I know you are a mod and you are trying to be a nice guy but come on, did he actually have credibility to begin with? :D ;)

[Eli Eon]

Miggy has 5 RBI tongiht. He's almost made up for the error which caused all those runs to score which were not Walker's fault at all.

And none other than JIM PALMER just said that "Tejada has driven in five runs tonite and given up five by botching that routine DP ball, opening the floodgates instead of ending the inning."

[Mark Carver]

He botches too many double play balls like tonite. Maybe I will have to start documenting them along with the games they cause to be lost as apparently people chose not to believe what is going on on the field with Mr. IRON GLOVE Tejada!:(

If what you say is true... what about the pitchers? When do they get some of the blame?

[utvolzac]

You just blew what little credibility you had with that very statement. For Boston, the trade off is a fair one...what Ramirez lacks defensively he makes up for at the plate.

Tejada is a heckuva better shortstop than Ramirez is a left fielder.

Let me guess...back in the mid-80's, it was Eddie Murray's fault, right? In the 90's it was Cal's fault. Now, Miguel Tejada finds himself a victim the, "When all else fails, blame the best player on the team!" mindset.

Who's blaming Roberts or Bedard :)

[Pedro Cerrano]

And none other than JIM PALMER just said that "Tejada has driven in five runs tonite and given up five by botching that routine DP ball, opening the floodgates instead of ending the inning."

Jim Palmer also said "Adam Jones is a 5-tool guy who can also throw the ball hard.":rolleyes:

[BaltBird 24]

Jim Palmer also said "Adam Jones is a 5-tool guy who can also throw the ball hard.":rolleyes:

Wonder if making it rain is one of those tools?


Wait, wrong Adam Jones......

[Pedro Cerrano]

And none other than JIM PALMER just said that "Tejada has driven in five runs tonite and given up five by botching that routine DP ball, opening the floodgates instead of ending the inning."

Look, theoretically, if Tejada had not made that error there is a good chance Seattle wouldn't have scored all those runs. Who knows, maybe Roberts muffs the toss or makes a wild throw. Maybe the DP gets beaten out who knows.

You're assuming that the DP gets made, and that's fine. But in baseball, it's more than just theory. Guys are supposed to pick each other up. When Tejada, your star player who is responsible for your being in countless games makes an error, you hope others (ahem Walker) can pick him up and get another out. Errors happen, pitchers have bad outings, bats collectively go cold. You don't win or lose as an individual, you do it as a team.

The point is, regardless of whether Tejada makes that play or not, to blame ALL the runs from scoring on him strictly based on the fact that we may have been out of the innings unscathed if he had made it is ridiculous.

You win as a team and you lose as a team and I'm sick of Tejada being a convenient scapegoat by some on here simply because he is our big money player.

[The Wedge]

Damn that Steve Bartman. He was completely to blame for the Cubs tanking the NLCS. Had nothing to do with the team completely folding like a lawn chair after a foul ball went in to the stands.

[The Wedge]

Look, theoretically, if Tejada had not made that error there is a good chance Seattle wouldn't have scored all those runs. Who knows, maybe Roberts muffs the toss or makes a wild throw. Maybe the DP gets beaten out who knows.

You're assuming that the DP gets made, and that's fine. But in baseball, it's more than just theory. Guys are supposed to pick each other up. When Tejada, your star player who is responsible for your being in countless games makes an error, you hope others (ahem Walker) can pick him up and get another out. Errors happen, pitchers have bad outings, bats collectively go cold. You don't win or lose as an individual, you do it as a team.

The point is, regardless of whether Tejada makes that play or not, to blame ALL the runs from scoring on him strictly based on the fact that we may have been out of the innings unscathed if he had made it is ridiculous.

You win as a team and you lose as a team and I'm sick of Tejada being a convenient scapegoat by some on here simply because he is our big money player.

He invoked Palmer again, I see.

[Eli Eon]

If what you say is true... what about the pitchers? When do they get some of the blame?

The inning should have been over period. The fact he blew that totally piece of cake DP ball was just like sticking a pin in the balloon of the morale of the team. You could see it on Daniel Cabera's face. I know from playing baseball at lower levels that when your fielders let you down it is frustrating beyond belief, especially when you are playing a team that is more talented to begin with, you simply cannot give them extra outs. The Orioles thanks to Tejada, beat themselves this game defensively. His blunder has also caused extra innings out of the bullpen, which will cause repercussions down the road in the next series against Boston. I personally have seen enough of his shoddy play at shortstop. Those who disagree with me must not mind it, but I sure do.:mad:

[Mark Carver]

The inning should have been over period. The fact he blew that totally piece of cake DP ball was just like sticking a pin in the balloon of the morale of the team. You could see it on Daniel Cabera's face. I know from playing baseball at lower levels that when your fielders let you down it is frustrating beyond belief, especially when you are playing a team that is more talented to begin with, you simply cannot give them extra outs. The Orioles thanks to Tejada, beat themselves this game defensively. His blunder has also caused extra innings out of the bullpen, which will cause repercussions down the road in the next series against Boston. I personally have seen enough of his shoddy play at shortstop. Those who disagree with me must not mind it, but I sure do.:mad:

bla-bla-bal-bla....

[Pedro Cerrano]

He invoked Palmer again, I see.

Yes Palmer, the voice of reason and all-knowing baseball wizard....or something.

[The Wedge]

Yes Palmer, the voice of reason and all-knowing baseball wizard....or something.

He's pretty insightful, but he's as human as the rest of us.

[Eli Eon]

Look, theoretically, if Tejada had not made that error there is a good chance Seattle wouldn't have scored all those runs. Who knows, maybe Roberts muffs the toss or makes a wild throw. Maybe the DP gets beaten out who knows.

You're assuming that the DP gets made, and that's fine. But in baseball, it's more than just theory. Guys are supposed to pick each other up. When Tejada, your star player who is responsible for your being in countless games makes an error, you hope others (ahem Walker) can pick him up and get another out. Errors happen, pitchers have bad outings, bats collectively go cold. You don't win or lose as an individual, you do it as a team.

The point is, regardless of whether Tejada makes that play or not, to blame ALL the runs from scoring on him strictly based on the fact that we may have been out of the innings unscathed if he had made it is ridiculous.
You win as a team and you lose as a team and I'm sick of Tejada being a convenient scapegoat by some on here simply because he is our big money player.

No, its not. Tejada is squarely to blame for botching that easy DP ball. He ought to be kicking himself because if they lose this game it is squarely on his incompetent defense once again, and it has grown old.

[Pedro Cerrano]

The inning should have been over period. The fact he blew that totally piece of cake DP ball was just like sticking a pin in the balloon of the morale of the team. You could see it on Daniel Cabera's face. I know from playing baseball at lower levels that when your fielders let you down it is frustrating beyond belief, especially when you are playing a team that is more talented to begin with, you simply cannot give them extra outs. The Orioles thanks to Tejada, beat themselves this game defensively. His blunder has also caused extra innings out of the bullpen, which will cause repercussions down the road in the next series against Boston. I personally have seen enough of his shoddy play at shortstop. Those who disagree with me must not mind it, but I sure do.:mad:

And I bet Miguel Tejada is frustrated beyond belief when D-Cab issues free passes like they're going out of style.

[Eli Eon]

He's pretty insightful, but he's as human as the rest of us.

Oh, you mean he's not an alien?:rolleyes: He knows what he is talking about, why do you need to try to minimize it?:confused:

[Pedro Cerrano]

No, its not. Tejada is squarely to blame for botching that easy DP ball. He ought to be kicking himself because if they lose this game it is squarely on his incompetent defense once again, and it has grown old.

Dude, WITHOUT TEJADA THEY AREN'T IN THE GAME TO BEGIN WITH! Even if your "theory" was right (which it isn't), without Tejada we're down 5 less runs and Seattle has 5 less runs. So they're still up by the same amount.

Unless you only want to criticize him for his error and not give him credit for his offense tonight, but I wouldn't think YOU would do something silly like that.:rolleyes:

[Eli Eon]

And I bet Miguel Tejada is frustrated beyond belief when D-Cab issues free passes like they're going out of style.

That is not the point. Tejada is a supposed superstar who cannot even turn routine double plays. It is disgraceful to watch him try to impersonate a major league shortstop at times! Daniel Cabrera is a struggling pitcher trying to establish himself. Big difference there.

[Pedro Cerrano]

That is not the point. Tejada is a supposed superstar who cannot even turn routine double plays. It is disgraceful to watch him try to impersonate a major league shortstop at times! Daniel Cabrera is a struggling pitcher trying to establish himself. Big difference there.

My head hurts.

[Eli Eon]

Dude, WITHOUT TEJADA THEY AREN'T IN THE GAME TO BEGIN WITH! Even if your "theory" was right (which it isn't), without Tejada we're down 5 less runs and Seattle has 5 less runs. So they're still up by the same amount.

Unless you only want to criticize him for his error and not give him credit for his offense tonight, but I wouldn't think YOU would do something silly like that.:rolleyes:

That error led to five runs and it was an extremely easy play that I would guess even a minor league shortstop would make 99/100 times. It is just inexcusable to watch him blunder plays like that! The opposition took full advantage of it as that is what good teams do. If this was the only time he did it all season it would be one thing, but I will try to start keeping track of it because I believe he would probably lead the league in this type of thing (botching double play balls that lead to big innings by the opponent).

[dorfmac]

I definately do think Tejada's defense is somewhat of a liability, but definately not to the extent you're making it out to be. It's Tejada's job to make that play, but DCab's and Walker's and the rest of the defense's job to get the outs too. A lot of people argue that Tejada's defense isn't poor, when it definately is, but you are completely blowing it out of proportion. Somewhere in the middle is an accurate opinion of Tejada's defensive abilities.

[The Wedge]

My head hurts.

It bears repeating:


You'd be telling him something that about 50 other people have told him. You can't tell him any different than "what he knows." Fools errand.

[Eli Eon]

It bears repeating:

Repeat it all you want, and I am repeating that movie line by Jack Nicholson, in "A Few Good Men." It has something to do with handling the truth I believe!:rolleyes:

[TyCobb]

Keep telling yourself Wedge, that I am a fool and Tejada's defense is fine. Along with Santa Claus is real and so is the Easter Bunny!
:p

What do you think of Jeter's defense at SS?

Jeter > Tejada or Tejada > Jeter

This answer will tell me all I need to know.

[The Wedge]

Sorry, can't hear ya.

[makoman]

The inning should have been over period. The fact he blew that totally piece of cake DP ball was just like sticking a pin in the balloon of the morale of the team. You could see it on Daniel Cabera's face. I know from playing baseball at lower levels that when your fielders let you down it is frustrating beyond belief, especially when you are playing a team that is more talented to begin with, you simply cannot give them extra outs. The Orioles thanks to Tejada, beat themselves this game defensively. His blunder has also caused extra innings out of the bullpen, which will cause repercussions down the road in the next series against Boston. I personally have seen enough of his shoddy play at shortstop. Those who disagree with me must not mind it, but I sure do.:mad:

Maybe you can say that Cabrera's morale was shot because of that. I played little league or in high school or whatever just like you did, and yeah it's frustrating as a pitcher when someone boots a ball, although you'd hope guys at this level have a little more poise than that.

But Walker has no excuse. It cannot matter to a reliever what happened before he came in, or he shouldn't be a major league reliever. He comes into a situation and his job is to get outs, regardless of what's happened. He failed tonight, period. To lay it all on Tejada--and none on the pitchers--is bogus.

[Pedro Cerrano]

So, how 'bout this weather we're having?

[The Wedge]

So, how 'bout this weather we're having?

These flash storms are freakin' crazy, man. I love this time of year in these parts.

Though, I'm leaving for 5 days tomorrow morning to where it's even more humid, and with more flash storms. Go figure. Of course, the clear water and awesome beaches make up for it.

[Pedro Cerrano]

These flash storms are freakin' crazy, man. I love this time of year in these parts.

Though, I'm leaving for 5 days tomorrow morning to where it's even more humid, and with more flash storms. Go figure. Of course, the clear water and awesome beaches make up for it.

If you get stung by a Jellyfish I'll give you Tejada's cell phone # so you can call him and scream at him.

[The Wedge]

If you get stung by a Jellyfish I'll give you Tejada's cell phone # so you can call him and scream at him.

I didn't see any jellyfish down there last year...I think the water might be too warm or something.

[Eli Eon]

What do you think of Jeter's defense at SS?

Jeter > Tejada or Tejada > Jeter

This answer will tell me all I need to know.

I am much more concerned with my favorite team (Orioles) than anything the Yankees do, even though I do despise them and hope they lose every game!;)

[The yard]

Jesus man he made an error let it go. How you can rant so much about one error is beyond me. Sure he should have made the play. But he didn't and it is time to move on. The pitchers needed to pick him up and they too failed at doing so. Have you ever played baseball before? Just because the ball is hit right at you doesn't mean you are going to make the play 100% of the time, I don't care who you are.

[srh523]

Well folks I certainly didnt read past the 1st cple post in this thread because it is about this time every year that I lose total interest and could care less that I cant see the team that I love.
Then a thread like this comes along and pretty much secures my 2-3 month leave of absence!

[Eli Eon]

Well folks I certainly didnt read past the 1st cple post in this thread because it is about this time every year that I lose total interest and could care less that I cant see the team that I love.
Then a thread like this comes along and pretty much secures my 2-3 month leave of absence!

I agree, you have to be a diehard Orioles fan or a glutton for punishment to watch this horrible game through to its finish. It is a primo example of how not to play defense and pitch!

[SilentJames]

Yeah Eli.

Walker giving up 5 and the pitching staff giving up 13 was ALLLLLLL TEJADA'S fault.

The outright boner you have for bashing this guy is hysterical.

"ignore"

[srh523]

I agree, you have to be a diehard Orioles fan or a glutton for punishment to watch this horrible game through to its finish. It is a primo example of how not to play defense and pitch!

Brother I love ya man but it is the Orioles! Luv them or not they suck! But you certainly cant lay the blame on one error Sh## happens and the Orioles are the new jinx. Lets just hope we dont have to wait 80 yrs like Sox fans did!

How is Ravens training camp looking anyway? :D

[Eli Eon]

Yeah Eli.

Walker giving up 5 and the pitching staff giving up 13 was ALLLLLLL TEJADA'S fault.

The outright boner you have for bashing this guy is hysterical.

"ignore"

Again, Walker wouldn't even have come into the game possibly until the next inning or inning thereafter. Cabera would likely have come out the next inning as he did his job only to watch Tejada blunder the game away horribly!!:( Blunders like this help to wear out the bullpen prematurely. It is hard to put a value on how bad this botched play by Tejada effects the team now, and for the immediate upcoming games.

[SilentJames]

Again, Walker wouldn't even have come into the game possibly until the next inning or inning thereafter. Cabera would likely have come out the next inning as he did his job only to watch Tejada blunder the game away horribly!!:(

He blundered ONE PLAY!

ONE PLAY DOES NOT MAKE THE DIFFERENCE IN A 13 RUN GAME!

So what, Walker gets no blame? How do you know Walker would not have come out?

See there is that passing off your assumptions as fact again. We've had this talk.

Tejada also hit a grand slam tonight.

But sure, go on ahead and keep thinking that. Go on ahead. You're totally right.

[Eli Eon]

He blundered ONE PLAY!

ONE PLAY DOES NOT MAKE THE DIFFERENCE IN A 13 RUN GAME!

So what, Walker gets no blame? How do you know Walker would not have come out?

See there is that passing off your assumptions as fact again. We've had this talk.

Tejada also hit a grand slam tonight.

But sure, go on ahead and keep thinking that. Go on ahead. You're totally right.

His grand slam was nice, but he wiped it out by giving up five runs by blundering a play so easy it was embarassing to watch him muff!:(

[srh523]

His grand slam was nice, but he wiped it out by giving up five runs by blundering a play so easy it was embarassing to watch him muff!:(

I just checked all of Tejada's career stats and I cant find anything showing we he has every pitched an inning in his ML career!

[Mashed Potatoes]

He blundered ONE PLAY!

ONE PLAY DOES NOT MAKE THE DIFFERENCE IN A 13 RUN GAME!

So what, Walker gets no blame? How do you know Walker would not have come out?

You can't honestly be expected to pitch after one of your fielders makes an error. The anguish is too much to bear! These guys are major league baseball players not Marines trained to handle psychological torture.

Maybe you forgot the golden rule of baseball, when a teammate makes a mistake, you can no longer be held responsible for any of your play for the rest of the game.

[Eli Eon]

I just checked all of Tejada's career stats and I cant find anything showing we he has every pitched an inning in his ML career!

If he pitches like he plays shortstop he would be moved to another position!:p

[RShack]

Eli... dude... I don't know if you realize this, but in this one thread alone, you have made 23 posts (so far) and they all say exactly the same thing...

[srh523]

If he pitches like he plays shortstop he would be moved to another position!:p

Well heck where does that put Baez, Birkins, Parrish, Trax and every other sucky player that has thrown a pitch this year? Maybe they should try SS or maybe we should let Miggy pitch with this thinking!

[Eli Eon]

Well heck where does that put Baez, Birkins, Parrish, Trax and every other sucky player that has thrown a pitch this year? Maybe they should try SS or maybe we should let Miggy pitch with this thinking!

Maybe they should too!:p

[lovetoaster]

If you get stung by a Jellyfish I'll give you Tejada's cell phone # so you can call him and scream at him.

Now that's humor right there :) ;) :cool: :eek: :D

(smilies for double-extra-super emphasis)

[lovetoaster]

My head hurts.

Yes, after reading this thread, mine certainly does too.

[wildcard]

Miguel giveth,
And Miguel taketh away.
(Assist to the pen)

[Gurgi]

Eli you cant convince these Sabermetrics guys. What they see on the diamond is ignored for what they think they can see on their charts.

What they dont know but the professionals do is that Tejada should be move from SS. No team is interested in Tejada at SS. We should trade him or get the cajones to move him and we should do it now so he has a chance to learn it before next season.

[Why Not?]

Eli... dude... I don't know if you realize this, but in this one thread alone, you have made 23 posts (so far) and they all say exactly the same thing...

Hey, wait a minute.....(rubs eyes).....Are you a ghost?

[ScottieBaseball]

Again, Walker wouldn't even have come into the game possibly until the next inning or inning thereafter. Cabera would likely have come out the next inning as he did his job only to watch Tejada blunder the game away horribly!!:( Blunders like this help to wear out the bullpen prematurely. It is hard to put a value on how bad this botched play by Tejada effects the team now, and for the immediate upcoming games.

And if a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his rump when he hops. If my aunt had different equipment, she'd be my uncle.

Man alive...Tejada is not the frequent offender you make him out to be, Eli. There are certainly better defensive shortstops in baseball. I won't argue that, but Miguel Tejada is not at the center of this team's struggles. His gaffe tonight was nothing more than untimely.

Go back and look at what you've posted in this thread and count the numbers of if's, would have's, might have's, could have's, would likely's, etc, and they outnumber Tejada's total errors this season. Check that. They outnumber the number of games Tejada has single-handedly cost us since becoming an Oriole.

[Eli Eon]

Eli you cant convince these Sabermetrics guys. What they see on the diamond is ignored for what they think they can see on their charts.

What they dont know but the professionals do is that Tejada should be move from SS. No team is interested in Tejada at SS. We should trade him or get the cajones to move him and we should do it now so he has a chance to learn it before next season.

Yes, apparently they don't recall how this team looked so much better it was almost beyond belief with Hernandez and even Fahey at short and they were playing great basefall that was fun and exciting to watch. Now the have reverted back to horrendous baseball that is almost a torture to watch. I could care less about Tejada hitting grand slams if he is going to turn around and give the game away by bungling up a double play ball that any other major league shortstop makes with ease.

[ScottieBaseball]

Yes, apparently they don't recall how this team looked so much better it was almost beyond belief with Hernadez and even Fahey at short and they were playing great basefall that was fun and exciting to watch. Now the have reverted back to horrendous baseball that is almost a torture to watch. I could care less about Tejada hitting grand slams if he is going to turn around and give the game away by bungling up a double play ball that any other major league shortstop makes with ease.

It...was...an...error. Wow.

I remember clearly Fahey and Hernandez, and how much fun it was to root for them even though they wouldn't have a similar job with any other team in Major League Baseball barring a significant injury. I also remember Fahey struggling to hit his weight at AAA Norfolk. The days of Mark Belanger are well behind the game of baseball. Fahey would have been a starter in decades gone by. However, when you look at the whole package, Tejada is the preferable shortstop, defensive shortcomings and all.

[Eli Eon]

It...was...an...error. Wow.

An error that resulted in 5 runs scoring after what would have been the inning ending outs! That is more than an error, that is a back breaking, game losing blunder of the utmost magnitude when you consider what resulted from it!:eek:

[Sports Guy]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2007&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=doublePlays

This is how Tejada stacks up with the rest of the SS using many of the basic fielding stats.

Obviously, since he missed time, you have to project out his stats as if he didn't miss a game.

For example...If you project out his DP stats for 113 games(the amount the Orioles have played), Tejada would be tied for 4th IN THE MAJORS in DPs turned.

So this goes against what Eli is saying about him not turning DPs well.

[ScottieBaseball]

An error that resulted in 5 runs scoring after what would have been the inning ending outs! That is more than an error, that is a back breaking, game losing blunder of the utmost magnitude when you consider what resulted from it!:eek:

Would you be this critical if the error came with the Orioles ahead by 8 runs and the pitching pulled through and overcame it?

[Spoonless]

Would you be this critical if the error came with the Orioles ahead by 8 runs and the pitching pulled through and overcame it?

Yes, yes he would.

[lovetoaster]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2007&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=doublePlays

This is how Tejada stacks up with the rest of the SS using many of the basic fielding stats.

Obviously, since he missed time, you have to project out his stats as if he didn't miss a game.

Oh my god, he is eighth in the league in fielding percentage! :eek: That's horrible! :mad: I yearn for the days of Juan Bell!

Seriously, I realize that he has lost a little range but he still has a strong arm and he is not as bad of a shortstop as a lot of people on this board think.

[TyCobb]

Would you be this critical if the error came with the Orioles ahead by 8 runs and the pitching pulled through and overcame it?

Or if Fahey/Hernedez/Bynum/(Insert any other bum on a MLB Roster)

[ScottieBaseball]

Or if Fahey/Hernedez/Bynum/(Insert any other bum on a MLB Roster)

Those guys are scrappy, unaccomplished, and therefore immune to the iron fist of judgment that is Eli Eon.

I think I get it with EE now...above average defensive skills plus poor offensive skills > average defensive skills plus best hitter on the team skills.

Did I get that right?

[Sports Guy]

HEre are his SABR defensive stats as well...#1 in RZR.


http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=fielding&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=zone_rating&direction=DESC&qual_filter=1&season_filter%5B%5D=2007&league_filter%5B%5D=1&pos_filter%5B%5D=6&Submit=Submit

[ScottieBaseball]

What about Brian Roberts' bone-headed baserunning in the first inning? Maybe Markakis would have approached things differently with one out and a runner on first, then maybe Millar would have seen different pitches, then maybe...maybe...maybe...

[Sports Guy]

Anyone know what Miggy's UZR is right now?

[ScottieBaseball]

Anyone know what Miggy's UZR is right now?

Don't go clouding the unfair judgement of one player based on one untimely error with facts, SG. :D

[JohnD]

Evolution can be mean
There's no dumbarse vaccine.

[Chollie Eckman]

Look guys - it was a critical situation - HE CHOKED - it led to a bunch of "unearned" earned runs scored. What other team that we played this year had their SS botch a play that led to us piling on runs? It does happen and with Tejada all to often at inopportune times.

Take the blinders off and stop piling on.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Look guys - it was a critical situation - HE CHOKED - it led to a bunch of "unearned" earned runs scored. What other team that we played this year had their SS botch a play that led to us piling on runs? It does happen and with Tejada all to often at inopportune times.

Take the blinders off and stop piling on.

Give me three other examples this year of inopportune Tejada errors that cost us games.

[lovetoaster]

Look guys - it was a critical situation - HE CHOKED - it led to a bunch of "unearned" earned runs scored. What other team that we played this year had their SS botch a play that led to us piling on runs? It does happen and with Tejada all to often at inopportune times.

Take the blinders off and stop piling on.

He did make a mistake. It happens. But why are we not assigning any blame to our wonderful pitching staff that tossed up a lot of garbage that inning as well.

I am not completely dismissing Tejada for his error, but did not hang a few sliders after that though.

[MikeAD]

Oh shoot Im almost sad I went out tonight and got to miss yet another of these threads.

I really think Eli Eon is ONLY on this board to do this.

There was a DUI checkpoint while I was driving home and I was held up two hours and my AC wasn't working right....freaking Miggy, probably removed my frion.

[Lt Melmo]

You don't need sabermetrics to prove this point! This is pathetic! The guy says some of the most inane bullhocky a body can muster up about the best player on our team... and notice that he hasn't brought up a single new point throughout the entire thread, but has simply repeated the same miggysucks mantra over and over. This frustration causes the sane populace of the OH to dig deeper and deeper into their enormous basin of baseball knowledge, to absolutely no consequence, cause this one guy just keeps saying the same redundant bull over and over. The man shelters himself from the discussion, hands on ears, repeatedly screaming his three or four lines of defense but safe from the harmful ways of common sense, as everyone around him gets a little bit madder and madder by taking him seriously.

I find this thread to be an incredible study of the human psyche.
Allow me to join in!

Eli, Miggy contributed five runs to today's losing box score, with a bit of help from his teammates. Can we agree on that? Now, I'm not going to agree that he also took away five runs(with a whole lot of help from his teammates), but for the sake of argument and logic be damned, let's just say that that's the case. Now, in case you haven't realized, 5 and 5 are very similar numbers. In fact, they're the same number! We can verify this by opening Microsoft Calculator and subtracting 5 from 5. I won't get into arithmetic involved, but the result we get is 0. So by your math, Miggy contributed a total of 0 runs to the game. He essentially had a neutral effect. The same effect, virtually, as going 0-4 with no walks, runs, or RBI.

On August 3rd, 2007, Barry Bonds went 0-4 with no runs or RBI. On July 15th, he went 0-5. Holy moly! That's five outs, all coming from the same guy! Outs are a very valuable thing in baseball, perhaps the most valuable thing... so presumably, this Barry Bonds fellow must be a very, very bad baseball player to have these nasty games where he contributes absolutely nothing. Right?

Wrong.

I'm gonna let you in on a little secret... Barry Bonds is actually a very good baseball player. He's even the all-time leader in home runs! Who woulda thunk it, am I right? ;)

Ivan Rodriguez went 0-4 today! Wowee Zowee. He must be really terrible, right? Nope, he's a hall of famer! Jippers! Carlos Pena went 0-5 with FOUR strikeouts! The Devil Rays probably released him right there, right? Wrong-o! He's actually quite good!

Is my point proven yet?

[RShack]

I wonder if this thread will wind up being like the salary cap idea...

"Owners spend crazy money... then the owners demand that the players grant them a salary cap to stop the owners from spending crazy money."

which is sorta like:

"People think a thread is frustrating, circular and redundant... but they keep posting to it anyway... and then eventually demand that a mod close the thread to stop them from posting even more."

;-)

[lovetoaster]

freaking Miggy, probably removed my frion.

Who does he think he is? That SOB!

[Chollie Eckman]

Give me three other examples this year of inopportune Tejada errors that cost us games.
I'll match you one for one. You name the opposing SS who cost a game aginst the O's and I'll name the game where Tejada's D cost them the game.

I'll go first. Ball hit early in the season down the LF line late in the game that the SS always makes(similar to Uribe's error yesterday). He doesn't make the play the ball falls in. Inning extended. Runs score. We lose.


Your turn.

[MikeAD]

You don't need sabermetrics to prove this point! This is pathetic! The guy says some of the most inane bullhocky a body can muster up about the best player on our team... and notice that he hasn't brought up a single new point throughout the entire thread, but has simply repeated the same miggysucks mantra over and over. This frustration causes the sane populace of the OH to dig deeper and deeper into their enormous basin of baseball knowledge, to absolutely no consequence, cause this one guy just keeps saying the same redundant bull over and over. The man shelters himself from the discussion, hands on ears, repeatedly screaming his three or four lines of defense but safe from the harmful ways of common sense, as everyone around him gets a little bit madder and madder by taking him seriously.

I find this thread to be an incredible study of the human psyche.
Allow me to join in!

Eli, Miggy contributed five runs to today's losing box score, with a bit of help from his teammates. Can we agree on that? Now, I'm not going to agree that he also took away five runs(with a whole lot of help from his teammates), but for the sake of argument and logic be damned, let's just say that that's the case. Now, in case you haven't realized, 5 and 5 are very similar numbers. In fact, they're the same number! We can verify this by opening Microsoft Calculator and subtracting 5 from 5. I won't get into arithmetic involved, but the result we get is 0. So by your math, Miggy contributed a total of 0 runs to the game. He essentially had a neutral effect. The same effect, virtually, as going 0-4 with no walks, runs, or RBI.

On August 3rd, 2007, Barry Bonds went 0-4 with no runs or RBI. On July 15th, he went 0-5. Holy moly! That's five outs, all coming from the same guy! Outs are a very valuable thing in baseball, perhaps the most valuable thing... so presumably, this Barry Bonds fellow must be a very, very bad baseball player to have these nasty games where he contributes absolutely nothing. Right?

Wrong.

I'm gonna let you in on a little secret... Barry Bonds is actually a very good baseball player. He's even the all-time leader in home runs! Who woulda thunk it, am I right? ;)

Ivan Rodriguez went 0-4 today! Wowee Zowee. He must be really terrible, right? Nope, he's a hall of famer! Jippers! Carlos Pena went 0-5 with FOUR strikeouts! The Devil Rays probably released him right there, right? Wrong-o! He's actually quite good!

Is my point proven yet?


I've told you a thousand times, Eli is the KING of ridiculously small sample sizes. And we can't forget that one game in the playoffs where Miggy made an Error for the As. They would have been better off moving Chavez to Short and putting Miguel at Catcher.

[lovetoaster]

Also, where is the "why does Cabrera refuse to field his position" thread? There were some situations tonight that he could have diffused if he were even an adequate defensive player. I realize he is tall, but I think he could do more than watch balls slowly bounce up the middle. Well, he did kick one, but that did not really work out that well either.

It has been a problem, and to me at least, it was a glaring one tonight.

Sorry for the rant, just frustrated. As I am sure a lot of us are.

[MikeAD]

Two nights ago Nick Markakis popped out with two runners in scoring position.

We need to send him down and bring up Majewski.

[Rex Thunder]

I'm indifferent on the Tejada at SS issue, but if we had Fahey or Hernandez as our starting SS I'd probably drive down to Baltimore and attempt to burn down the Warehouse. Tejada can make 30 errors a game and still be more welcome at SS than those two.

I logged on JUST to see what type of response Tejada's game garnered. Responses like this are a joke. They obviously can not be taken as serious- because anyone who thinks this has bigger problems than the Orioles.

As far as Tejada at shortstop, it's sad. I was completely dumbfounded, surprised, AND ecstatic when he hit the grand slam. I thought to myself, "Good for Tejada!" I want to see him do well, especially in the clutch! That is the Tejada I have wanted to see the past 2 years. I was all ready to get on here and give him major props for coming through when I completely expected him to chase a first pitch and groundout.

Of course, we saw when then happened. Not only did he make the error on the should be double play, but the ground ball that allowed them to tie the game the very next inning I though should have been played as well. He was drawn in yes, but the play could have been made. That play alone wouldn't garner any comment from me- because it wasn't an easy one- but the double play ball- it was like a bad movie...

I honestly don't know what it is about him. He just has a way of handcuffing this team- and by that I mean more than his offensive and defensive production. Mistakes happen- I'm not going to gang up on him for that. I just really think that something- be it the pressure he puts on himself, the pressure the team puts on him, the fans, the little voice on his right shoulder???? :) ... I just think the team will be better off when we are able to trade him and start fresh. He may very well go on and have some productive years with a team loaded with offensive talent- that can not only hide his defensive instability at times- but his lack of power at the plate- and clutch situational hitting (tonight notwithstanding). Maybe with a team that puts less pressure on him to be the man- he will do well again. I just know that it doesn't feel right with him on this team anymore.

I say this knowing full well how much he cares about winning and how hard he was on himself tonight for the error. So while I don't really agree that THIS was THE example of why Tejada should not play SS here (this was literally a 1 in 100 mistake, if that)- but it does just illustrate why he needs to leave. I would happily put Tejada at SS the rest of the season, and I doubt he'll ever make another error that attrocious all year- it just shows that no matter what he does, for whatever reason- baltimore is not the place for him.

I mean, to have 5 rbis, and to allow 5 runs to be scored because of your error- IN THE SAME GAME- how does that happen???? It's crazy man...

[Pedro Cerrano]

I'll match you one for one. You name the opposing SS who cost a game aginst the O's and I'll name the game where Tejada's D cost them the game.

I'll go first. Ball hit early in the season down the LF line late in the game that the SS always makes(similar to Uribe's error yesterday). He doesn't make the play the ball falls in. Inning extended. Runs score. We lose.


Your turn.

Oh this is so stupid. Now I'm supposed to find specific games that an opposing SS made an error in that gave the Orioles a win?

[os1971]

HEre are his SABR defensive stats as well...#1 in RZR.


http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=fielding&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=zone_rating&direction=DESC&qual_filter=1&season_filter%5B%5D=2007&league_filter%5B%5D=1&pos_filter%5B%5D=6&Submit=Submit


Wow Tejadas better fielder than Rafael Furcal and Jason Bartlett. I'm sold. :rolleyes:

[Moose Milligan]

C'mon everyone, make Eli post more so his free 500 run out...

[MikeAD]

C'mon everyone, make Eli post more so his free 500 run out...

Best...idea....ever....


Hey Eli, do you think the Orioles would be better or worse off if we traded Tejada for three players who are equal to Hernandez?

We've traded like 4 Second basemen to the Cubs in the last decade, Im sure theres a club that has a mess of middle infielders stocked up.

We could put Fahey at second, Hernandez at Short, Roberts at Catcher and random AAAA infielders at LF and First.

This works because once Fahey went a whole game without making an error in Left field, and his ability to play the corner outfield spots AND the middle infield makes his value far greater than that of lowly Miguel Tejada.

[Icterus galbula]

C'mon guys, Eli Eon's son was a 2-ton man mountain who could palm a medicine ball and hit 430 ft on the fly! The dude knows baseball!!!!

[MikeAD]

C'mon guys, Eli Eon's son was a 2-ton man mountain who could palm a medicine ball and hit 430 ft on the fly! The dude knows baseball!!!!

I've often wondered why MASN hasn't asked him to replace Hunter in the booth.

[MikeAD]

Actually, Im pretty sure they did approach him earlier this year to offer him the job, but he declined because hes far too good to sit in the same room amongst the likes of Jim Palmer.

[Hank Scorpio]

C'mon everyone, make Eli post more so his free 500 run out...

Yeah, dude - I was being sarcastic last night.

[Dr. FLK]

An error that resulted in 5 runs scoring after what would have been the inning ending outs! That is more than an error, that is a back breaking, game losing blunder of the utmost magnitude when you consider what resulted from it!:eek:

And if he made a 5-run error every game, I'd be all over him too.

[Mackus]

Walker wouldn't even have been in that inning if Tejada makes a DP that most high school SS's turn easily!Tejada turns that double play easily just as often as any other SS in the majors. He made an error, it happens. Get over your ridiculous obsession.

[Sports Guy]

Oh this is so stupid. Now I'm supposed to find specific games that an opposing SS made an error in that gave the Orioles a win?
Stupid doesn't begin to describe it.

[Mackus]

And also, it is utterly ridiculous to blame Tejada for the 5 runs scoring.

Blame Tejada for not making the play is fine, but it was undoubtedly the crappy pitching that led to the 5 runs, not one botched groundball.

I havent read through this entire thread and I don't plan to because I'm sure its more of the same insanity, but the bottom line is it was bad pitching, and not a Tejada error, that led to the huge inning. Anyone saying otherwise is selling something.

[Sports Guy]

And also, it is utterly ridiculous to blame Tejada for the 5 runs scoring.

Blame Tejada for not making the play is fine, but it was undoubtedly the crappy pitching that led to the 5 runs, not one botched groundball.

I havent read through this entire thread and I don't plan to because I'm sure its more of the same insanity, but the bottom line is it was bad pitching, and not a Tejada error, that led to the huge inning. Anyone saying otherwise is selling something.

DCab not being able to field his position didn't help either.

[George]

Last night's error illustrated the problem with having a mediocre fielder at SS compared to having an outstanding fielder like Hernandez. Tejada has to be a great power hitter to make up for his fielding and speed and become a net positive. The error combined with the grand slam in one game shows dramatically how difficult it is to have enough power to overcome poor fielding.

The irrelevant arguments about how we lost the game because of more than one factor, in this case primarily poor relief pitching, only show that the team has more than one problem. Some errors turn out to have little or no effect, other errors have a big effect. If the O's had won the game, an objective assessment of Tejada's performance would be unchanged.

Tejada's speed also is a problem. I don't recall the exact game, but recently Tejada hit into a DP to make the third out and cost a run.

Of course, the serious point is that lackluster fielding at SS and poor speed over the course of a season can only be compensated by a hitter of Ruthian stats. Even so, why not play your mediocre-fielding Ruthian player at some position other than shortstop where his fielding does the maximum amount of damage.

[Mackus]

Of course, the serious point is that lackluster fielding at SS and poor speed over the course of a season can only be compensated by a hitter of Ruthian stats.I really hope this is hyperbole. Otherwise I'm utterly speechless.

[Mark Carver]

Stupid doesn't begin to describe it.

“In the United States of America, you have a right to be stupid.” — Sen. John Kerry, June 29, 2006.

;)

[Gurgi]

In Tejada we trust?

I trust Mcfail saw that game and sees what I see. Tejada will not break spring training in an Oriole Uniform.

I'll bet my scooby snacks.

[Moose Milligan]

In Tejada we trust?

I trust Mcfail saw that game and sees what I see. Tejada will not break spring training in an Oriole Uniform.

I'll bet my scooby snacks.

It's not scooby snacks, its munchies n crunchies.

[Fan4Life]

Baseball... a game of inches... or is that football?:002_sbiggrin:

It is interesting how often the Orioles get punsihed for little mistakes... I didn't watch the entire game last night as after DCab gave up the go ahead run, I lost interest.... but it sounds like if Tejada had made the play, the outcome could/would have been a lot different... as with Walker couple nights night before coming in with 2 outs Orioles up and hangs a pitch that gets clobbered out of the park... the Mariners didn't look back after that... so that's at least 2 of the 3 games where the O's not making one play was where the game turned. I was hoping for a Sweep of the Mariners to at least have some misguided hope of a Wildcard shot.. but after being swept, the season is over, now it's time to start looking at our pieces for next year.

[Sports Guy]

“In the United States of America, you have a right to be stupid.” — Sen. John Kerry, June 29, 2006.

;)
How great is it that a democrat said that? lol

[Fan4Life]

How great is it that a democrat said that? lol

What's their mascot again???? :D

[Spoonless]

Alright. I could see the merit of DHing Tejada and playing Hernandez every day if we were in contention, were strictly limited to what we have on the Major League roster right now (no MiL moves, trades, etc. to improve what we have to put out on the field). Maybe.

But, moving Tejada to LF or 3B or DH this season would be pointless. I know you say "the other teams see the errors that Tejada makes; they already know he can't field SS anymore," but even if he were a sub-par SS (which I'm not conceding) you still have to show that you trust Tejada playing there. He still has more value in a trade as a shortstop than he would as a DH. We're not going anywhere this season, so there's no point in lowering Tejada's trade value.

Do I think it would be a good idea to DH Tejada once a week? I'd be fine with that. I think he can use a regular day off from playing the field. I just see no reason to full-time DH him or otherwise move him out of position. You can say you would win more games. But even if you could, those few games aren't going to make any difference this year. No incoming FA is going to say "you know what? I wasn't going to go there, but I saw they DH'd Tejada to play Luis Hernandez at SS, so I think I'll sign with them now."

Also, DHing or moving Tejada means you're taking a bat away from Gibbons or Huff or whomever. Now, I know these guys have been painfuly bad this year, but is Luis Hernandez going to go on a tear like Huff has in the past few games?

I don't know. I don't think Tejada is a below average fielding shortstop overall. I think that overall, Tejada's bat + Tejada's defense + the potential upside of Huff/Gibbons/whomever at bat > Tejada's bat + Hernandez's defense + Hernandez's potential offensive contribution. I just don't think that it makes any kind of sense to play Hernandez at SS over Tejada with the team this season. Even if it would win us a few more games this year, I think it would do more harm than good (re: Tejada's trade value).

[Eli Eon]

Look guys - it was a critical situation - HE CHOKED - it led to a bunch of "unearned" earned runs scored. What other team that we played this year had their SS botch a play that led to us piling on runs? It does happen and with Tejada all to often at inopportune times.

Take the blinders off and stop piling on.

Don't worry, Charlie let them "bring it on." The can "pile" on all they want. I have already lost 8 points in reputation ratings. However, if I am so wrong about stating the obvious (that Tejada botched a routine, tailor made DP ball, that led to 5 runs scoring that would not have had he made the play, how come the Baltimore Sun main article states virtually the same synopsis? I guess the sports writer is an idiot as well because Tejada's "stats" say he is a good fielder! Laughable really when you think about it.

Of course I predicted that my assertion that Tejada should be removed from the position before he return would stand as correct. Now that it is coming true, some folks are getting even more irate at me for being correct all along. I am not surprised at all, because it is human nature for folks to refuse to admit they could be wrong, especially when they are in the majority on a view. (Again, no surprise here whatsover.

What I find especially satisfying that the Sun is actually mirroring my take that the botched, horribly misplayed grounder by Tejada that easily should have turned two and ended the inning with no runs scored wiped out his offense. That again, was and is, my take exactly. The media apparently agrees with me. I serioiusly doubt that the Sun will get flooded with angry Hangouters or anyone else disputing this take either!:eek: :p

[SilentJames]

How great is it that a democrat said that? lol

Yeah, but your guy can't pronounce simple words, so its a wash really.

[Eli Eon]

And if he made a 5-run error every game, I'd be all over him too.

You wouldn't have to he would be a permanent DH in short order, which is where I would move him ASAP anyway.

[Mackus]

And if he made a 5-run error every game, I'd be all over him too.Its a good thing theres no such thing as a 5-run error then!

[Eli Eon]

And also, it is utterly ridiculous to blame Tejada for the 5 runs scoring.

Blame Tejada for not making the play is fine, but it was undoubtedly the crappy pitching that led to the 5 runs, not one botched groundball.

I havent read through this entire thread and I don't plan to because I'm sure its more of the same insanity, but the bottom line is it was bad pitching, and not a Tejada error, that led to the huge inning. Anyone saying otherwise is selling something.

Yeah, you are spot on. The Baltimore Sun Lead article says the same thing that I have been saying, and they are indeed selling papers by the thousands!:p

[Mackus]

Don't worry, Charlie let them "bring it on." The can "pile" on all they want. I have already lost 8 points in reputation ratings. However, if I am so wrong about stating the obvious (that Tejada botched a routine, tailor made DP ball, that led to 5 runs scoring that would not have had he made the play, how come the Baltimore Sun main article states virtually the same synopsis? I guess the sports writer is an idiot as well because Tejada's "stats" say he is a good fielder! Laughable really when you think about it. Here's the facts:
1) Tejada made an error on what could have been a double play ball.
2) 5 runs scored after the error.

Whats ridiculous is that you are jumping to the conclusion that those 5 runs scored solely because of Tejada's error. You're also stating that its a play many other SS make without admitting that its a play that Tejada makes just as often. He made an error, it happens. It happens a bit more with Tejada than other SS, but thats not a big problem because of his bat.

The runs scored because the pitching was terrible, thats the bottom line.

[Icterus galbula]

In the land of the blind, Luis Hernandez is king.

[Fan4Life]

Yeah, you are spot on. The Baltimore Sun Lead article says the same thing that I have been saying, and they are indeed selling papers by the thousands!:p

Maybe you write for the Sun? :D I wouldn't use the Sun as the example of where the truth l lies.

[Eli Eon]

Here's the facts:
1) Tejada made an error on what could have been a double play ball.
2) 5 runs scored after the error.

Whats ridiculous is that you are jumping to the conclusion that those 5 runs scored solely because of Tejada's error. You're also stating that its a play many other SS make without admitting that its a play that Tejada makes just as often. He made an error, it happens. It happens a bit more with Tejada than other SS, but thats not a big problem because of his bat.

The runs scored because the pitching was terrible, thats the bottom line.

And I strongly, STRONGLY disagree that it is not a BIG problem because of his BAT! Again, this game exemplies my point perfectly. Despite his grand slam his horrible fielding wiped out all of his 5 rbi's. :eek: Had he been a DH this game we benefit from his 5 rbi's and don't have those five extra runs scored in all likelihood because that easy, routine DP gets made and inning over!

Read the title of this thread. Not only is it on point for this game, but it illustrates what I have been espousing all along, even before Tejada came back off the DL!!!

[Dr. FLK]

Its a good thing theres no such thing as a 5-run error then!

Really? From reading this thread it seems like they are commonplace.

[Fan4Life]

And I strongly, STRONGLY disagree that it is not a BIG problem because of his BAT! Again, this game exemplies my point perfectly. Despite his grand slam his horrible fielding wiped out all of his 5 rbi's. :eek: Had he been a DH this game we benefit from his 5 rbi's and don't have those five extra runs scored in all likelihood because that easy, routine DP gets made and inning over!

Read the title of this thread. Not only is it on point for this game, but it illustrates what I have been espousing all along, even before Tejada came back off the DL!!!

Do you really think there would be team harmony with Tejada DH'ing?

[Eli Eon]

Maybe you write for the Sun? :D I wouldn't use the Sun as the example of where the truth l lies.

Oh, okay. I get it now. The Sun is wrong, Jim Palmer is wrong, I am wrong, others who think the way I do regarding Tejada's defense at short are wrong, as the stats don't lie, as Tejada's bat far outweighs his defensive shortcomings at shortstop.

Those five runs that scored last night due to his horrific blunder were all a figment of my imagination and don't actually count as far as the game goes. In other words Tejada gets a mulligan because of his 5 offensive rbi's. Let's keep him at shortstop forever because he really is a fine defensive shortstop as the stats say so!:rolleyes:

If you believe this, I have some Enron stock to sell you at $500 per share!:p

[Eli Eon]

Do you really think there would be team harmony with Tejada DH'ing?

How good was the so-called harmony on the team after watching his horrific blunder on that tailor made DP ball last nite? Their on field play afterwards would indicate it was not good IMO.:confused:

This Orioles infield has gone from a smooth well-oiled machine making great and routine plays to lift the spirits of the pitching staff before Tejada came back to almost immediately a dysfunctional unit more than capable of botching any easy DP ball at any point in any game, breaking the back of the pitching staff. No wonder the pitching has faltered lately. They miss the great defense at short that was there pre-Tejada!!:eek:

[Mackus]

Oh, okay. I get it now. The Sun is wrong, Jim Palmer is wrong, I am wrong, others who think the way I do regarding Tejada's defense at short are wrong, as the stats don't lie, as Tejada's bat far outweighs his defensive shortcomings at shortstop.

Those five runs that scored last night due to his horrific blunder were all a figment of my imagination and don't actually count as far as the game goes. In other words Tejada gets a mulligan because of his 5 offensive rbi's. Let's keep him at shortstop forever because he really is a fine defensive shortstop as the stats say so!:rolleyes:

If you believe this, I have some Enron stock to sell you at $500 per share!:pHoly crap you have terrible reading comprehension skills.

Tejada made an error. 5 runs scored after this error. That does not mean 5 runs scored BECAUSE of Tejada's error.

Seriously, they teach kids how stupid this type of cause/effect logical fallacy is in like 3rd grade.

[Dr. FLK]

Oh, okay. I get it now. The Sun is wrong, Jim Palmer is wrong, I am wrong, others who think the way I do regarding Tejada's defense at short are wrong, as the stats don't lie, as Tejada's bat far outweighs his defensive shortcomings at shortstop.

Those five runs that scored last night due to his horrific blunder were all a figment of my imagination and don't actually count as far as the game goes. In other words Tejada gets a mulligan because of his 5 offensive rbi's. Let's keep him at shortstop forever because he really is a fine defensive shortstop as the stats say so!:rolleyes:

If you believe this, I have some Enron stock to sell you at $500 per share!:p

No one is saying he's the best fielding SS in the game. He is what he is. He's a SS with a limited range, strong arm, and a good bat with declining power. He isn't as bad as you are making him out to be, and you seem to be basing an awful lot of this on one game. He made an error on an easy play...that happens. That doesn't excuse Walker's pathetic performance...he should have been able to bail Miggy out. We get it, you hate Miggy.

[Fan4Life]

Holy crap you have terrible reading comprehension skills.

Tejada made an error. 5 runs scored after this error. That does not mean 5 runs scored BECAUSE of Tejada's error.

Seriously, they teach kids how stupid this type of cause/effect logical fallacy is in like 3rd grade.

He's looking for every example (regardless of how miniscule) to support his thesis...

[Eli Eon]

Holy crap you have terrible reading comprehension skills.

Tejada made an error. 5 runs scored after this error. That does not mean 5 runs scored BECAUSE of Tejada's error.

Seriously, they teach kids how stupid this type of cause/effect logical fallacy is in like 3rd grade.

You might as well say that because that is what happened. Had Tejada merely did his job and made a simple play the inning was over and the team is off the field. Ergo NO POSSIBILITY of ANY RUNS SCORING THAT INNING!!!::eek:

[CrimsonTribe]

And I strongly, STRONGLY disagree that it is not a BIG problem because of his BAT! Again, this game exemplies my point perfectly. Despite his grand slam his horrible fielding wiped out all of his 5 rbi's. :eek: Had he been a DH this game we benefit from his 5 rbi's and don't have those five extra runs scored in all likelihood because that easy, routine DP gets made and inning over!

Read the title of this thread. Not only is it on point for this game, but it illustrates what I have been espousing all along, even before Tejada came back off the DL!!!

When Tejada made the error there was a man on first with 1 out and no runs had scored. After the error there were men on first and second with 1 out and no runs had scored. You can say we would have been out of the inning but for Tejada's error, but you can't say that all five of those runs are solely on him. He's not the pitcher who couldn't recover from a common error or the relief pitcher who came in after that and totally sucked. Tejada should catch a little grief for making the error, but it happens and the rest of the team didn't step up. You seem to have lost your objectivity when it comes to Tejada.

[Dr. FLK]

You might as well say that because that is what happened. Had Tejada merely did his job and made a simple play the inning was over and the team is off the field. Ergo NO POSSIBILITY of ANY RUNS SCORING THAT INNING!!!:eek:

That's why it's called an error and not an on-purpose-er. No one is saying he didn't mess up. But, Jamie Walker screwed-the-pooch. Maybe we should run him out of town too.

[Mackus]

You might as well say that because that is what happened.This is absurd. Put 2 runs on Tejada, thats fine. I don't even think those two runs are even mostly his fault, but I won't argue too much. The 3rd-5th runs are on Walker and nobody else. That doesn't even seem debateable to me.

[Mark Carver]

You might as well say that because that is what happened. Had Tejada merely did his job and made a simple play the inning was over and the team is off the field. Ergo NO POSSIBILITY of ANY RUNS SCORING THAT INNING!!!:eek:

You cannot prove this. What you can prove that if Tejada makes his play, that there is a chance, maybe that 1 or 2 outs will ensue...

[Eli Eon]

That's why it's called an error and not an on-purpose-er. No one is saying he didn't mess up. But, Jamie Walker screwed-the-pooch. Maybe we should run him out of town too.

Actually, I am of the belief that the psychological damage was so severe as as result of your supposed superstar botching such an easy (high school level play that would be made) that I cannot personally hold any Oriole player accountable for anything that happened in the inning after that. The damage was already done by Miguel's Tejada and his blunder. Now I agree that is my "personal" opinion, and nothing more. However, I am certainly entitled to believe that, and I don't need a lecture or discourse from anyone trying to convince me otherwise.

That is what message boards are for (IMO) to express personal views and opinions and vent the frustrations when your team and its players disappoint you, as well as praise and express joy when they perform well and make you happy!

[Dr. FLK]

Actually, I am of the belief that the psychological damage was so severe as as result of your supposed superstar botching such an easy (high school level play that would be made) that I cannot personally hold any Oriole player accountable for anything that happened in the inning after that. The damage was already done by Miguel's Tejada and his blunder. Now I agree that is my "personal" opinion, and nothing more. However, I am certainly entitled to believe that, and I don't need a lecture from anyone trying to convince me otherwise.

You certainly are. And, I hope that these guys aren't that weak mentally. "Miggy made an error, I might as well throw some BP. I'm too sad to throw real pitches."

[Mackus]

Actually, I am of the belief that the psychological damage was so severe as as result of your supposed superstar botching such an easy (high school level play that would be made) that I cannot personally hold any Oriole player accountable for anything that happened in the inning after that. Are you sure it wasn't Tejada's wife in the stands performing voodoo on Jamie Walker?

[Moose Milligan]

Actually, I am of the belief that the psychological damage was so severe as as result of your supposed superstar botching such an easy (high school level play that would be made) that I cannot personally hold any Oriole player accountable for anything that happened in the inning after that. The damage was already done by Miguel's Tejada and his blunder. Now I agree that is my "personal" opinion, and nothing more. However, I am certainly entitled to believe that, and I don't need a lecture from anyone trying to convince me otherwise.

Damn, I'd hate to see the psychological damage that your kid has to endure when he makes an error in the field.

[Eli Eon]

You certainly are. And, I hope that these guys aren't that weak mentally. "Miggy made an error, I might as well throw some BP. I'm too sad to throw real pitches."

Sorry to say it but that is human nature. Baseball players are human beings too you know! Have you ever heard of "momentum" changing plays. Tejada's blunder was one if there ever was one!! It effected the entire team big time!:eek: :(

[Mackus]

as well as praise and express joy when they perform well and make you happy!I must have missed your "Perfect Example of Tejada Crushing a Clutch Grand Slam to Give The O's The Lead" thread.

[CrimsonTribe]

Actually, I am of the belief that the psychological damage was so severe as as result of your supposed superstar botching such an easy (high school level play that would be made) that I cannot personally hold any Oriole player accountable for anything that happened in the inning after that. The damage was already done by Miguel's Tejada and his blunder. Now I agree that is my "personal" opinion, and nothing more. However, I am certainly entitled to believe that, and I don't need a lecture or discourse from anyone trying to convince me otherwise.

That is what message boards are for (IMO) to express personal views and opinions and vent the frustrations when your team and its players disappoint you, as well as praise and express joy when they perform well and make you happy!

I think play resulted in severe psychological damage to someone other than the Orioles players.

[Icterus galbula]

I must have missed your "Perfect Example of Tejada Crushing a Clutch Grand Slam to Give The O's The Lead" thread.

Don't you see how its all connected? If Tejada doesn't hit the grand slam, maybe he doesn't get cocky and botch that double play ball which gave every man women and child the thousand-yard stare, which caused Jamie Walker to be inefficient, which led to the runs that were the difference maker in the game!

Tejada hit a grand slam and after that we lost the game. 100% his fault! He is a cancer in the clubhouse and the only prescription is a healthy dose of Luis Hernandez and the .241 /.277/.311 he has put up in AA.

[CrimsonTribe]

The best part of this is that the error is made out to be some crucial error that directly led to five runs. Sorry man, but it was an error with one on and one out. Not a big spot at all and no "clutchness" involved. Just a simple botched play during an otherwise normal inning. Then the pitchers lost it and the ____ hit the fan.

[Eli Eon]

The best part of this is that the error is made out to be some crucial error that directly led to five runs. Sorry man, but it was an error with one on and one out. Not a big spot at all and no "clutchness" involved. Just a simple botched play during an otherwise normal inning. Then the pitchers lost it and the ____ hit the fan.

There is zero excuse for even a mediocre fielding shortstop for not making a routine DP that would end and inning. Tejada is known to botch some of the easiest plays possible. For that reason he needs to be removed from a positon that he simply is not good enough to play and is harming the team beyond mere stats. I believe his shoddy fielding has reduced the morale on this team far below what it was with the slick fielding Hernandez out there. The defensive play of the infield is noticeably poorer now that Tejada is back.

[DrungoHazewood]

The easiest way to make a thread go 10 pages? Throw a ridiculous, borderline crazy overreaction grenade and step back.

You know, Eli, we really do get it. You have a serious mancrush on anyone who vaguely resembles Mark Belanger. Now let's move on.

[Sports Guy]

How do you know that BRob doesn't throw the ball in the dirt and it goes into the stands?

You can't assume the double play.

[DrungoHazewood]

How do you know that BRob doesn't throw the ball in the dirt and it goes into the stands?

You can't assume the double play.

You can when you have a single-minded devotion to proving a pretty loony idea.

[skornya]

Assume that Tejada makes 25 errors this season (which won't happen, as he's only made 9 so far), and each one leads to 2 unearned runs against the O's (which is an ungodly high estimate), so say he costs us 50 runs this year .

On an average year, Miggy (if he doesn't get hurt) drives in 110 runs...on an average year, Fahey had 1 RBI in 40 PA. 1. That's ONE.

Over the course of the season, Tejada is going to create more runs offensively, than he costs us defensively. And if you put Fahey, or Hernandez in there, they're going to cost us FAR MORE runs offensively than they might save defensively...which, if you look at their minor league fielding stats, may not be that many.

And anyone who hangs this loss solely on Tejada is as big a moron as those who tried to hang the Memorial Day Meltdown solely on Sammy P. Single, Single, Double, Intentional walk, single; that's what happened the five batters after Miggy's error. The pitching staff crapped the bed. You give up 13 runs and 15 hits as a staff, you deserve to lose. Period. You give up 8 runs (7 ER), and 9 baserunners, and don't get out of the sixth, you deserve to lose, period.

Is Tejada a great defensive shortstop? Nope. Would I EVER play Fahey or Hernandez over him? Or Belanger for that matter? Not a chance in hell. You give me a team of 9 Tejadas and you take a team of 9 Faheys and I'll beat you every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[Fairfax Bird]

There is zero excuse for even a mediocre fielding shortstop for not making a routine DP that would end and inning. Tejada is known to botch some of the easiest plays possible. For that reason he needs to be removed from a positon that he simply is not good enough to play and is harming the team beyond mere stats. I believe his shoddy fielding has reduced the morale on this team far below what it was with the slick fielding Hernandez out there. The defensive play of the infield is noticeably poorer now that Tejada is back.


Tejada was quoted by Roch as being the reason they lost the game. I agree that Tejada's defense is not what it once was. I seriously question how so many people can say that he is an above-average SS. I don't see that at all. However, at some point you have to let this go. You are ranting and raving every freaking day about Tejada's defense at SS. It simply isn't as bad as you are making it out to be. He is not the reason this team is losing. He wins more games with his bat than he loses at SS. No way does any SS type player we have have as many win shares as Tejada and no matter how many times you rant and rave it ain't changing the fact that Tejada's defense is an issue, but it is not the cause of this team being below par.

I assume you will ignore this post as well as many others and continue to rant and rave about Tejada's defense, just don't be surprised when people stop responding to you, cause there truly is little sense in trying to reason with you at this point.

[Fan4Life]

Assume that Tejada makes 25 errors this season (which won't happen, as he's only made 9 so far), and each one leads to 2 unearned runs against the O's (which is an ungodly high estimate), so say he costs us 50 runs this year .

On an average year, Miggy (if he doesn't get hurt) drives in 110 runs...on an average year, Fahey had 1 RBI in 40 PA. 1. That's ONE.

Over the course of the season, Tejada is going to create more runs offensively, than he costs us defensively. And if you put Fahey, or Hernandez in there, they're going to cost us FAR MORE runs offensively than they might save defensively...which, if you look at their minor league fielding stats, may not be that many.

And anyone who hangs this loss solely on Tejada is as big a moron as those who tried to hang the Memorial Day Meltdown solely on Sammy P. Single, Single, Double, Intentional walk, single; that's what happened the five batters after Miggy's error. The pitching staff crapped the bed. You give up 13 runs and 15 hits as a staff, you deserve to lose. Period. You give up 8 runs (7 ER), and 9 baserunners, and don't get out of the sixth, you deserve to lose, period.

Is Tejada a great defensive shortstop? Nope. Would I EVER play Fahey or Hernandez over him? Or Belanger for that matter? Not a chance in hell. You give me a team of 9 Tejadas and you take a team of 9 Faheys and I'll beat you every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Dude, you have to stop letting your common sense get in the way of your emotional outbursts... :p

[Eli Eon]

Assume that Tejada makes 25 errors this season (which won't happen, as he's only made 9 so far), and each one leads to 2 unearned runs against the O's (which is an ungodly high estimate), so say he costs us 50 runs this year .

On an average year, Miggy (if he doesn't get hurt) drives in 110 runs...on an average year, Fahey had 1 RBI in 40 PA. 1. That's ONE.

Over the course of the season, Tejada is going to create more runs offensively, than he costs us defensively. And if you put Fahey, or Hernandez in there, they're going to cost us FAR MORE runs offensively than they might save defensively...which, if you look at their minor league fielding stats, may not be that many.

And anyone who hangs this loss solely on Tejada is as big a moron as those who tried to hang the Memorial Day Meltdown solely on Sammy P. Single, Single, Double, Intentional walk, single; that's what happened the five batters after Miggy's error. The pitching staff crapped the bed. You give up 13 runs and 15 hits as a staff, you deserve to lose. Period. You give up 8 runs (7 ER), and 9 baserunners, and don't get out of the sixth, you deserve to lose, period.

Is Tejada a great defensive shortstop? Nope. Would I EVER play Fahey or Hernandez over him? Or Belanger for that matter? Not a chance in hell. You give me a team of 9 Tejadas and you take a team of 9 Faheys and I'll beat you every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Nobody has ever tired to make that ludicrous argument you mention in your last statement (to my knowledge) as that would be insanely stupid. However, if there was a Mark Belanger clone on the roster you would be insane not to move Tejada to either a DH or LF so you could retain his bat in the lineup while upgrading your defense at short (and the entire infield) by inserting a gold glove at the position.

[Eli Eon]

The easiest way to make a thread go 10 pages? Throw a ridiculous, borderline crazy overreaction grenade and step back.

You know, Eli, we really do get it. You have a serious mancrush on anyone who vaguely resembles Mark Belanger. Now let's move on.
t
Not true, I don't get "man crushes" on anyone.:mad: I do have a crush on Amber though, who wouldnt'? I just wish she was about 10 years older!:p

I also wish that there would be a way to take DNA from the deceased Belanger and clone ourselves another Blade as the Orioles shortstop for the next ten years. That is a fact!;)

[DrungoHazewood]

Assume that Tejada makes 25 errors this season (which won't happen, as he's only made 9 so far), and each one leads to 2 unearned runs against the O's (which is an ungodly high estimate), so say he costs us 50 runs this year.

I know you're exaggerating to make a point, but that's a wild overestimate. I'd guess a typical shortstop's error leads to around half a run.

[Sports Guy]

I actually would prefer a better defensive SS over Tejada. But not one that can't hit worth a damn.

[CrimsonTribe]

The easiest way to make a thread go 10 pages? Throw a ridiculous, borderline crazy overreaction grenade and step back.

You know, Eli, we really do get it. You have a serious mancrush on anyone who vaguely resembles Mark Belanger. Now let's move on.

The one good thing about this thread is that someone is very quickly approaching 500 posts and will either have to pay to be annoying or stop altogether.

[DrungoHazewood]

However, if there was a Mark Belanger clone on the roster you would be insane not to move Tejada to either a DH or LF so you could retain his bat in the lineup while upgrading your defense at short (and the entire infield) by inserting a gold glove at the position.

That's flatly not true. Absolutely not true. Not unless you have an abysmal defensive team and are desperate for anybody who can catch the ball, and maybe not even then. The Orioles aren't a desperate team on defense, in fact they're pretty good.

We've tried to explain this numerous times - Tejada creates many more runs on offense than a Belanger would save on defense, and Tejada's defense doesn't cost nearly as many runs on defense as a Belanger would on offense. The math just doesn't add up. The only way this makes sense is if you don't really analyze the situation and just rely on generalities.

[DrungoHazewood]

I actually would prefer a better defensive SS over Tejada. But not one that can't hit worth a damn.

Of course. You have to analyze the situation and figure out if it makes sense. And we have Miguel Tejada on the team, we don't have another shortstop who can hit at all. So moving him to a position he's never played so the worst hitter in the majors can play is seriously deranged.

[MikeAD]

I actually would prefer a better defensive SS over Tejada. But not one that can't hit worth a damn.

Which is why it would have been nice to have Orlanda Cabrera from the Angels. He has had a great year, was he in the supposed deal with Anaheim/LA or am I mistaken?

I still prefer Tejada, but Ocab has had a good year.

[Moose Milligan]

Of course. You have to analyze the situation and figure out if it makes sense. And we have Miguel Tejada on the team, we don't have another shortstop who can hit at all. So moving him to a position he's never played so the worst hitter in the majors can play is seriously deranged.

Yeah, but not to some :rolleyes:

[Mackus]

Which is why it would have been nice to have Orlanda Cabbrera from the Angels. He has had a great year, was he in the supposed deal with Anaheim/LA or am I mistaken?

I still prefer Tejada, but Ocab has had a good year.Cabrera was only mentioned in deals we proposed on the site, we thought we'd have to take back his salary and open space at SS in Anaheim. I never saw his name mentioned in any of the rumors of the real deal.

[Sports Guy]

Hey Scottie...Can you change the title of this thread to:

"A Perfect example of why some people shouldn't be allowed to use computers"

[MikeAD]

Cabrera was only mentioned in deals we proposed on the site, we thought we'd have to take back his salary and open space at SS in Anaheim. I never saw his name mentioned in any of the rumors of the real deal.

Ok, that makes sense.

To try to salvage this thread:

Eli, of the other current MLB Short Stops (or perhaps prospects) who would you rather have than Tejada?

Im not attacking you, just curious.

Theres Jeter, but hese fallen off some defensively, although still great at the plate.

Theres a few younger guys who have a lot of upside but aren't yet proven.

[Eli Eon]

That's flatly not true. Absolutely not true. Not unless you have an abysmal defensive team and are desperate for anybody who can catch the ball, and maybe not even then. The Orioles aren't a desperate team on defense, in fact they're pretty good.

We've tried to explain this numerous times - Tejada creates many more runs on offense than a Belanger would save on defense, and Tejada's defense doesn't cost nearly as many runs on defense as a Belanger would on offense. The math just doesn't add up. The only way this makes sense is if you don't really analyze the situation and just rely on generalities.

And again, you are missing the point that Tejada's offense is still in the lineup say as a DH or Leftfielder. Do you really think there would be that much loss of offense between Captain Popup and Hernandez for example? I sure don't see it. The great defense would more than compensate. Once again routine double plays like Tejada botched last night that show up only as a single error, when in actuality they were really more like a 5 run error as far as the game outcome was concerned. Again, his defensive problems with DP balls don't get reflected in stats, but in reality are a big obstacle to this teams success in my estimation.

[66-70-83-??]

Assume that Tejada makes 25 errors this season (which won't happen, as he's only made 9 so far), and each one leads to 2 unearned runs against the O's (which is an ungodly high estimate), so say he costs us 50 runs this year .

On an average year, Miggy (if he doesn't get hurt) drives in 110 runs...on an average year, Fahey had 1 RBI in 40 PA. 1. That's ONE.

Over the course of the season, Tejada is going to create more runs offensively, than he costs us defensively. And if you put Fahey, or Hernandez in there, they're going to cost us FAR MORE runs offensively than they might save defensively...which, if you look at their minor league fielding stats, may not be that many.

And anyone who hangs this loss solely on Tejada is as big a moron as those who tried to hang the Memorial Day Meltdown solely on Sammy P. Single, Single, Double, Intentional walk, single; that's what happened the five batters after Miggy's error. The pitching staff crapped the bed. You give up 13 runs and 15 hits as a staff, you deserve to lose. Period. You give up 8 runs (7 ER), and 9 baserunners, and don't get out of the sixth, you deserve to lose, period.

Is Tejada a great defensive shortstop? Nope. Would I EVER play Fahey or Hernandez over him? Or Belanger for that matter? Not a chance in hell. You give me a team of 9 Tejadas and you take a team of 9 Faheys and I'll beat you every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I agree with you except for the last part. Fahey is a much better pitcher than Tejada. :D

I am all for dealing Tejada- I have been a proponent of "blowing it up".
Tejada may (or may not) be a problem in the clubhouse. I have been frustrated with him at times over the last 2 years, too. I expected more about of him this year. But, expectations go with the territory of being the best (highest paid) member of a team.

He isn't the reason why the Orioles are losing. He is still the best hitter on the team. At his worst- he is still "adequate" in the field.

[Moose Milligan]

Hey Scottie...Can you change the title of this thread to:

"A Perfect example of why some people shouldn't be allowed to use computers"

SG's got jokes!

I'd change it to "A case for infantile euthanasia" myself but that might be too cruel.

[66-70-83-??]

And again, you are missing the point that Tejada's offense is still in the lineup say as a DH or Leftfielder. Do you really think there would be that much loss of offense between Captain Popup and Hernandez for example? I sure don't see it. The great defense would more than compensate.

I know what you are saying, that IF we have to have a stiff in the lineup it might as well be a stiff who can play (and replace in the field) a really bad defensive player.

But, for that to work with the Orioles, all of these conditions must be met:

1) Tejada would have to be terrible in the field. He isn't.

2) The bat replacing Tejada (Fahey for ex) would have to be better than wherever Tejada is going to play (DH ? LF ? 1B ?) and that doesn't apply either. Fahey or Hernandez is still worse than Payton or Millar or even Gibbons. :eek:

[MikeAD]

And again, you are missing the point that Tejada's offense is still in the lineup say as a DH or Leftfielder. Do you really think there would be that much loss of offense between Captain Popup and Hernandez for example? I sure don't see it. The great defense would more than compensate.

And you are missing the point that with Tejada at SS there would still be generated offense from a REAL DH or LF.
We don't have a very good example of that this year, but on a real team you have a legitimate Designated Hitter.
Further the idea of moving Tejada now, with a month and some change left in the season seems totally ridiculous.

[Mackus]

And again, you are missing the point that Tejada's offense is still in the lineup say as a DH or Leftfielder. Do you really think there would be that much loss of offense between Captain Popup and Hernandez for example? I sure don't see it. The great defense would more than compensate.There might not be a huge dropoff between this year's Jay Gibbons or Jay Payton and Hernandez, but there would be a collassal dropoff between an average LF or DH and Hernandez. Just because the FO is incapable of finding MLB quality guys to play LF and DH doesn't mean its a good idea to put a guy who can't hit his weight in grams at SS. The goal should be to find a good LF/DH to replace Gibby/Payton. Not to find a crappy SS to replace Tejada and put Tejada at LF/DH, that would be a lateral move at best, and most likely hurt us.

And for the billionth, Hernandez is not an elite defensive SS. He had a great couple weeks, but his fielding numbers in the minors and scouting reports don't indicate that he's some wizard with the glove. I will give you that he's probably better than Tejada, but I don't think he'd save enough runs over Tejada to even makeup for the dropoff from Gibby's to Hernandez' bat.

[Icterus galbula]

And again, you are missing the point that Tejada's offense is still in the lineup say as a DH or Leftfielder. Do you really think there would be that much loss of offense between Captain Popup and Hernandez for example? I sure don't see it. The great defense would more than compensate. Once again routine double plays like Tejada botched last night that show up only as a single error, when in actuality they were really more like a 5 run error as far as the game outcome was concerned. Again, his defensive problems with DP balls don't get reflected in stats, but in reality are a big obstacle to this teams success in my estimation.

<img src=http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa258/TRorison/home_book1.jpg?t=1186757366></img>

[Eli Eon]

I know what you are saying, that IF we have to have a stiff in the lineup it might as well be a stiff who can play (and replace in the field) a really bad defensive player.

But, for that to work with the Orioles, all of these conditions must be met:

1) Tejada would have to be terrible in the field. He isn't.

2) The bat replacing Tejada (Fahey for ex) would have to be better than wherever Tejada is going to play (DH ? LF ? 1B ?) and that doesn't apply either. Fahey or Hernandez is still worse than Payton or Millar or even Gibbons. :eek:

And I am saying that stats used to support 2) are misleading and do not present a true picture. One big reason for this is botched DP balls like last night that break the game open for the opponent are simply not accurately reflected when making such a comparison. That is my point which seems to continually be overlooked, minimized or not give adequate consideration to my argument.:eek: :confused:

[Moose Milligan]

<img src=http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa258/TRorison/home_book1.jpg?t=1186757366></img>

LMAO! that was aweosme, how'd you do that?

[Mackus]

And I am saying that stats used to support 2) are misleading and do not present a true picture. One big reason for this is botched DP balls like last night that break the game open for the opponent are simply not accurately reflected when making such a comparison. That is my point which seems to continually be overlooked, minimized or not give adequate consideration to my argument.:eek: :confused:You don't have any idea how those stats are calculated, so where do you get off criticizing them as being innaccurate?

[CrimsonTribe]

And again, you are missing the point that Tejada's offense is still in the lineup say as a DH or Leftfielder. Do you really think there would be that much loss of offense between Captain Popup and Hernandez for example? I sure don't see it. The great defense would more than compensate. Once again routine double plays like Tejada botched last night that show up only as a single error, when in actuality they were really more like a 5 run error as far as the game outcome was concerned. Again, his defensive problems with DP balls don't get reflected in stats, but in reality are a big obstacle to this teams success in my estimation.

And you're missing the point that Tejada's offense is only special at this point b/c he's a SS.

[Sports Guy]

You don't have any idea how those stats are calculated, so where do you get off criticizing them as being innaccurate?

Hell, even watching Tejada, you can tell he is an average to above average SS...That is, if you have a clue as to what you are watching.

[Fan4Life]

There might not be a huge dropoff between this year's Jay Gibbons or Jay Payton and Hernandez, but there would be a collassal dropoff between an average LF or DH and Hernandez. Just because the FO is incapable of finding MLB quality guys to play LF and DH doesn't mean its a good idea to put a guy who can't hit his weight in grams at SS. The goal should be to find a good LF/DH to replace Gibby/Payton. Not to find a crappy SS to replace Tejada and put Tejada at LF/DH, that would be a lateral move at best, and most likely hurt us.

And for the billionth, Hernandez is not an elite defensive SS. He had a great couple weeks, but his fielding numbers in the minors and scouting reports don't indicate that he's some wizard with the glove. I will give you that he's probably better than Tejada, but I don't think he'd save enough runs over Tejada to even makeup for the dropoff from Gibby's to Hernandez' bat.

And to be fair.. we have a new FO and really haven't had enough time or seen enough evidence to know what it is currently capable of...

[Eli Eon]

And you are missing the point that with Tejada at SS there would still be generated offense from a REAL DH or LF.
We don't have a very good example of that this year, but on a real team you have a legitimate Designated Hitter.
Further the idea of moving Tejada now, with a month and some change left in the season seems totally ridiculous.

It only matters to the Orioles making comparisons to a "real" team as you put it is doesn't effect the current status of the Orioles and is therefore meaningless.

Moving Tejada would be ridiculous if the team was in a race but since they are not, I think it would be a worthwhile move to see if the team dramatically improves or not.

[Mackus]

It only matters to the Orioles making comparisons to a "real" team as you put it is doesn't effect the current status of the Orioles and is therefore meaningless.

Moving Tejada would be ridiculous if the team was in a race but since they are not, I think it would be a worthwhile move to see if the team dramatically improves or not.Moving Tejada hurts the team for the future because it would lower his trade value if we essentially admit that he is no longer a capable SS, which obviously is not true.

[Icterus galbula]

LMAO! that was aweosme, how'd you do that?

Found this image (http://www.onetrickponybook.com/images/home_book1.jpg) on google and was able to edit it in paint pretty easily.

[MikeAD]

It only matters to the Orioles making comparisons to a "real" team as you put it is doesn't effect the current status of the Orioles and is therefore meaningless.

Moving Tejada would be ridiculous if the team was in a race but since they are not, I think it would be a worthwhile move to see if the team dramatically improves or not.

So you just admited that the games at this point don't mean much. So why jeopradize Tejada's trade value or value to our own team by putting him in left field.

Do you know how bad it would be if he broke his arm trying to catch a ball in LF?

And yes we need to make comparisons to a real team. Hopefully we aqcuire a legtimate LF and DH this offseason thus making any Tejada positional shift a mute point.

[Gurgi]

I think the league has enough scouts to realize that Tejada is finished at SS. California is just the first of teams that if they have intrest in him will want him to move position. Moving him into LF before the season could likely help his trade value. For that matter we wouldnt have to trade him at all and could look to fill SS, 1st, ,DH and maybe some in the Pen.

[Eli Eon]

Moving Tejada hurts the team for the future because it would lower his trade value if we essentially admit that he is no longer a capable SS, which obviously is not true.

Other teams are not stupid. Most of them would probably want to move him anyway, as his blunders at shortstop are quite visible to all. (Major league teams do not just rely on stats, they do scout the games).:eek:

[MikeAD]

Moving him into LF before the season could likely help his trade value. For that matter we wouldnt have to trade him at all and could look to fill SS, 1st, ,DH and maybe some in the Pen.

This is entirely wrong. He does not stack up offensively against the top offensive Left Fielders, Designated Hitters, or First Basemen in the League. As we keep saying, his value comes from being a top offensive SHORT STOP. Lets just look at our own division. How does Tejada compare offensively to Matsui, Crawford, Vernon Wells, and Manny? While he might compare to Wells and Crawford to an extent, the fact that they are actually capable and even good fielding LF, makes them more valuable in Left Field.

The same can be said for DH or 1B.

This is really ridiculous.

[Mackus]

Other teams are not stupid. Most of them would probably want to move him anyway, as his blunders at shortstop are quite visible to all. (Major league teams do not just rely on stats, they do scout the games).:eek:No, the only teams that would want to move him are teams with better SS that would be trading for him specifically to play 3B. The only team that really fits that bill is Anaheim, and thats only because Cabrera is having a monster year. Tejada has always been better than him before this season and I expect Tejada will have a better year than Cabrera next season.

[Eli Eon]

No, the only teams that would want to move him are teams with better SS that would be trading for him specifically to play 3B. The only team that really fits that bill is Anaheim, and thats only because Cabrera is having a monster year. Tejada has always been better than him before this season and I expect Tejada will have a better year than Cabrera next season.

I disagree. Jerry Hairston was a second baseman with the Orioles who got moved to the OF because everyone in their right mind (except a few Sunspot poster idiots) saw that Brian Roberts was a better fielder and hitter. Hairston subsequently got dealt and I believe has been an outfielder ever since (instead of a second baseman).

I envision the exact same thing will occur with Tejada, so the Orioles might as well make the friggin move NOW and get it over with. His sorry defense at short (I believe) is going to lower his trade value the more it becomes visible to all the scouts watching.

[Mackus]

I disagree. Jerry Hairston was a second baseman with the Orioles who got moved to the OF because everyone in their right mind (except a few Sunspot poster idiots) that Brian Roberts was a better fielder and hitter. Hairston subsequently got dealt and I believe has been an outfielder ever since (instead of a second baseman).

I envision the exact same thing will occur with Tejada, so the Orioles might as well make the friggin move NOW and get it over with. His sorry defense at short (I believe) is going to lower his trade value the more it becomes visible to all the scouts watching.Scouts understand that players contibute on both offense and defense, and that those relative contributions need to be compared to their peers at their position. Tejada is worth far more as a SS to any team than he is at any other position. Unless his defense is appalling, which is absolutely is not despite your ridiculous claims, he'll be a SS wherever we trade him to this offseason.

[MikeAD]

I disagree. Jerry Hairston was a second baseman with the Orioles who got moved to the OF because everyone in their right mind (except a few Sunspot poster idiots) that Brian Roberts was a better fielder and hitter. Hairston subsequently got dealt and I believe has been an outfielder ever since (instead of a second baseman).

I envision the exact same thing will occur with Tejada, so the Orioles might as well make the friggin move NOW and get it over with. His sorry defense at short (I believe) is going to lower his trade value the more it becomes visible to all the scouts watching.

Wow!

I don't know which is worse: that you just compared Jerry Hairston Jr. to Miguel freaking Tejada or the fact that that isn't nearly the most ridiculous thing you've posted on this thread.

[RShack]

Eli... dude... I don't know if you realize this, but in this one thread alone, you have made 23 posts (so far) and they all say exactly the same thing...
43 (so far)... is there a record?
.

[Gurgi]

What I find ridiculous is the arguement we cant move Tejada to LF because he doesnt stack up well to who the league has playing left field. LOL. Well he sure stacks up well to who WE have playing in LF.

We might lose Patterson in Free Agency and have to move Payton to center. So really there are many reasons to stop the slow bleeding and move him.

Another big reason is it is alot easier position to play for a season. As he ages he will wear down less playing a less demanding spot and we might even see a nice jump in his offense.

That is after he stops pouting.

[Dr. FLK]

What I find ridiculous is the arguement we cant move Tejada to LF because he doesnt stack up well to who the league has playing left field. LOL. Well he sure stacks up well to who WE have playing in LF.

We might lose Patterson in Free Agency and have to move Payton to center. So really there are many reasons to stop the slow bleeding and move him.

Another big reason is it is alot easier position to play for a season. As he ages he will wear down less playing a less demanding spot and we might even see a nice jump in his offense.

That is after he stops pouting.

We stink. Upgrading over what we currently have really doesn't take much. We could put a lawn chair in LF and upgrade over Captain Popup. But that doesn't make it a good idea.

[MikeAD]

What I find ridiculous is the arguement we cant move Tejada to LF because he doesnt stack up well to who the league has playing left field. LOL. Well he sure stacks up well to who WE have playing in LF.

We might lose Patterson in Free Agency and have to move Payton to center. So really there are many reasons to stop the slow bleeding and move him.

Another big reason is it is alot easier position to play for a season. As he ages he will wear down less playing a less demanding spot and we might even see a nice jump in his offense.

That is after he stops pouting.

1. It is far better for OUR team to keep Patterson in Center, and get a REAL Left Fielder who can hit AND have Tejada at Short.
2. It is not a far easier position to play if he has always played in the infield. It can take time and potential injuries for him to get adjusted to.

And nobody here is saying that moving Miggy to Left is bad because he doesn't compare to other Left Fielders. We are saying it diminishes his TRADE VALUE, as nobody would want him as a Left Fielder.

[Eli Eon]

1. It is far better for OUR team to keep Patterson in Center, and get a REAL Left Fielder who can hit AND have Tejada at Short.
2. It is not a far easier position to play if he has always played in the infield. It can take time and potential injuries for him to get adjusted to.

And nobody here is saying that moving Miggy to Left is bad because he doesn't compare to other Left Fielders. We are saying it diminishes his TRADE VALUE, as nobody would want him as a Left Fielder.

Hey, wake up and smell the coffee, if Jerry Hairston was wanted as an outfielder (still find that hard to believe) Miguel Tejada would certainly have some takers. Your statement that "nobody" would want him as a Left Fielder is absurd!::confused::eek: :rolleyes:

[Lucky Jim]

Hey, wake up and smell the coffee, if Jerry Hairston was wanted as an outfielder (still find that hard to believe) Miguel Tejada would certainly have some takers. Your statement that "nobody" would want him as a Left Fielder is absurd!::confused: eek: :rolleyes:

Does anyone here not know where you stand on this issue? Have you convinced anyone to come around who didn't already agree with you? Is there really a need for another thread?

Sheesh.

[DrungoHazewood]

43 (so far)... is there a record?
.

About three weeks ago he had three simultaneous threads going where he made about every third post in each. And they were all (I'm paraphrasing here) of the form "Luis Hernandez > Miguel Tejada" and/or "if you don't have a gold glove shortstop, no matter how futile he is with the bat, you're doomed".

[MikeAD]

Hey, wake up and smell the coffee, if Jerry Hairston was wanted as an outfielder (still find that hard to believe) Miguel Tejada would certainly have some takers. Your statement that "nobody" would want him as a Left Fielder is absurd!::confused: eek: :rolleyes:

Oh my hell are you serious?
1. Hairston is NOT a starter, nor an All Star Calibur player.
2. Hairston was not WANTED by the Cubs anymore than he was taken as a means to get rid of some of Sosa's contract. And he did play the infield and the outfielder for both them and Texas.

There is a big difference from moving a Jerry Hairston sub, non star player and moving an All Star Shortstop to a position that severely decreases his value.

Do you honestly believe what you type?

Its not that NOBODY would want Miguel Tejada as a Left Fielder, the idea is that any team would want a good Left Fielder (who can hit better than Tejada and possibly field better) and Miguel Tejada as their SHORT STOP.

[Dr. FLK]

Does anyone here not know where you stand on this issue? Have you convinced anyone to come around who didn't already agree with you? Is there really a need for another thread?

Sheesh.

Hey, speak for yourself. A few more iterations and I think I'd get it. So far I understand that:

1) Miggy ruined our team.
2) Miggy eats babies.
3) Miggy will save the world from LF.

I think I almost got it.

[DrungoHazewood]

In any case, we only have to listen to this for another eight posts unless he wants to start paying for a plus membership.

[DrungoHazewood]

Hey, speak for yourself. A few more iterations and I think I'd get it. So far I understand that:

1) Miggy ruined our team.
2) Miggy eats babies.
3) Miggy will save the world from LF.

I think I almost got it.

No, no, your #3 is all wrong. It's that Luis Hernandez will save the world by playing SS. Miggy is in left because you have to have some place to stash his carcass.

[MikeAD]

In any case, we only have to listen to this for another eight posts unless he wants to start paying for a plus membership.

I appreciate anyone that supports the Hangout, but I think I would be glad if he did not chose to go to plus, and I feel sort of bad for that.

[Dr. FLK]

No, no, your #3 is all wrong. It's that Luis Hernandez will save the world by playing SS. Miggy is in left because you have to have some place to stash his carcass.

Like I said...a few more iterations and I'd have it down. I'm a little slow on the up-take... :D

[Lucky Jim]

In any case, we only have to listen to this for another eight posts unless he wants to start paying for a plus membership.

Can we all chip in to buy up his option and foreclose that from happening?

[MikeAD]

No, no, your #3 is all wrong. It's that Luis Hernandez will save the world by playing SS. Miggy is in left because you have to have some place to stash his carcass.

These still may be better than the "House saved four mothers and a baby from a burning Building last night In Norfolk" threads ;)

[makoman]

43 (so far)... is there a record?
.

And what percentage use the :eek: ?

I can't believe someone could be so eeked!

[RShack]

Dimaggio - 56
Unitas - 47
Eli - 44

[TonySoprano]

Dimaggio - 56
Unitas - 47
Eli - 44
All of whom are far distant from
Ripken - 2632;)

[OrioleWay27]

Man, my opinion doesn't matter squat, especially with so many posts on this, but Tejada cost us the game last night pure and simple. Not fielding that grounder is an absolute joke and he should be ashamed to call himself a shortstop. He's easily cost us 3 or 4 games this season because of stupid errors and lack of range.

Someone early on said it took a bad hop on him. Get out of here. That was an easy a chance as it gets, and if you pay any attention to Tejada's fielding, grounders take "bad hops" on him all the time. Balls which take legitimately bad hops he has no prayer at, but simple chances are an adventure with him as well.

Luis Hernandez should play short and Tejada should DH. Instantly makes this team better. Fahey should be out of here as soon as Bynum is up, and Tejada should emerge as our primary DH. This won't happen because the Orioles manage their roster worse than anyone in baseball, and Trembley wants to play everyone a little too much for my liking, instead of putting out the best lineup to win every day. And also because Tejada would probably whine like a little girl. Which makes sense, because he fields like a little girl, too.

[oriofan8]

Is anyone here old enough to remember when there were only 3 TV stations....and the President was on ...and that was ALL you could watch for like 2 - 3 HOURS !!!

Eli....you're on every channel....saying the same thing !!

You're not the President....and I'm no longer 12 !!! :rolleyes:

Come on !!

[Mackus]

Luis Hernandez should play short and Tejada should DH. Instantly makes this team better.It instantly makes the team better defensively. But it also instantly makes the team far worse offensively. Hence, it instantly makes the team as a whole worse.

[OrioleWay27]

It instantly makes the team better defensively. But it also instantly makes the team far worse offensively. Hence, it instantly makes the team as a whole worse.

I think you're vastly overestimating the production we've gotten out of DH's this year, especially compared to the top AL teams. You're essentially replacing our DH with Hernandez, and to be honest I don't think that affects the lineup very much. We've had Aubrey Huff, Chris Gomez, Jay Payton, and Jay Gibbons hit there, and none of those guys can hit for any worthwhile power. I don't see how it makes us so much worse offensively.

Part (or a good deal) of this team's downfall has been pathetic production out of DH and LF.

[Mackus]

I think you're vastly overestimating the production we've gotten out of DH's this year, especially compared to the top AL teams. You're essentially replacing our DH with Hernandez, and to be honest I don't think that affects very much. We've had Aubrey Huff, Chris Gomez, Jay Payton, and Jay Gibbons hit there, and none of those guys can hit for any worthwhile power. I don't see how it makes us so much worse offensively.

Part (or a good deal) of this team's downfall has been pathetic production out of DH and LF.It not kill us quite as much as it would normally this season because of the poor production, but it still definitely hurts us overall. We'd be dropping from about the low 700s OPS we've been getting from the position to Hernandez' offense at SS which would most likely be below a 600 OPS (he could barely have a 600 OPS at Bowie, he's pretty much a worse hitter than Paul Bako, he's THAT bad).

And just comparing it to our DHs is bad logic. The fact that our FO is incapable of finding an acceptable DH doesn't justify making a terrible move and starting a guy at SS who really doesn't have any business even starting at Bowie.

[OrioleWay27]

And just comparing it to our DHs is bad logic. The fact that our FO is incapable of finding an acceptable DH doesn't justify making a terrible move and starting a guy at SS who really doesn't have any business even starting at Bowie.

We're going to just have to agree to disagree. It's not about logic, it's about solving problems. Even then, a comparison to the DH spot is necesssary because that's where Tejada would hit. Our SS fielding is atrocious, and our DH spot has been a problem. You solve both problems by moving Tejada to DH, but create another with a weak-hitting shortstop. However, I think a weak-hitting, great fielding shortstop AND a solid DH is less of a problem than a pathetic DH AND a pathetic fielding, good-hitting shortstop. We just value different things, or emphasize some problems more than others.

Either way, this front office sucks hard and we'll see problems like this the rest of the year.

[DrungoHazewood]

I think you're vastly overestimating the production we've gotten out of DH's this year, especially compared to the top AL teams. You're essentially replacing our DH with Hernandez, and to be honest I don't think that affects the lineup very much. We've had Aubrey Huff, Chris Gomez, Jay Payton, and Jay Gibbons hit there, and none of those guys can hit for any worthwhile power. I don't see how it makes us so much worse offensively.

Part (or a good deal) of this team's downfall has been pathetic production out of DH and LF.

Luis Hernandez has a .580 OPS at Bowie. That's about the same as Paul Bako does in the majors, except Hernandez is doing it against mainly 19-25 year olds many of whom will never see the light of AAA. A reasonable expectation for a major league translation of a .580 OPS in AA is maybe a .500 in the majors. The lowest OPS in the majors among qualifiers is .573. Hernandez is that bad against AA pitching.

It's reasonable to assume he'd be the single worst-hitting regular in the major leagues, and it wouldn't be close.

Oriole DHs, by comparison, have a .694 OPS, roughly 200 points better than what we can expect out of Hernandez.

For this move to begin to make any sense at all Tejada would have to be, by far, the worst fielding shortstop in baseball. He's not.

[OrioleWay27]

Luis Hernandez has a .580 OPS at Bowie. That's about the same as Paul Bako does in the majors, except Hernandez is doing it against mainly 19-25 year olds many of whom will never see the light of AAA. A reasonable expectation for a major league translation of a .580 OPS in AA is maybe a .500 in the majors. The lowest OPS in the majors among qualifiers is .573. Hernandez is that bad against AA pitching.

It's reasonable to assume he'd be the single worst-hitting regular in the major leagues, and it wouldn't be close.

Oriole DHs, by comparison, have a .694 OPS, roughly 200 points better than what we can expect out of Hernandez.

For this move to begin to make any sense at all Tejada would have to be, by far, the worst fielding shortstop in baseball. He's not.

Fair enough, what about Bynum?

Tejada is pretty close to one of the worst fielding shortstops in baseball, given his range.

[DrungoHazewood]

It's not about logic,

Those are easily the most instructive four words of this thread.

[DrungoHazewood]

Fair enough, what about Bynum?

Tejada is pretty close to one of the worst fielding shortstops in baseball, given his range.

From what I can tell Bynum isn't any better than Tejada in the field. And Tejada most certainly isn't anything like the worst shortstop in baseball.

[CrimsonTribe]

We're going to just have to agree to disagree. It's not about logic, it's about solving problems. Even then, a comparison to the DH spot is necesssary because that's where Tejada would hit. Our SS fielding is atrocious, and our DH spot has been a problem. You solve both problems by moving Tejada to DH, but create another with a weak-hitting shortstop. However, I think a weak-hitting, great fielding shortstop AND a solid DH is less of a problem than a pathetic DH AND a pathetic fielding, good-hitting shortstop. We just value different things, or emphasize some problems more than others.

Either way, this front office sucks hard and we'll see problems like this the rest of the year.

When in Rome...

[Mackus]

Tejada is pretty close to one of the worst fielding shortstops in baseball, given his range.I suppose he's pretty close, if you consider within about 15 of the worst "pretty close" :)

Moving Tejada to DH and Hernandez to SS makes us worse, thats really not debateable. But, lets just say it made us exactly even for the remainder of the season for arguments sake. It still would be a bad move b/c it lowers Tejada's trade value.

The smart thing to do is play out the season, since it doesn't matter anyways. Then in the offseason, you trade Tejada and get back either a SP or OF (if its a SP, then Cabrera is dealt for an OF/DH). You can then go out and try to make a move for a SS who is more defensive minded.

Theres nothing wrong with a defense first SS, thats not the argument we are all making here. The problem is putting someone who is so utterly terrible with the bat at SS. Hernandez could be a better fielder than Ozzie Smith and Mark Belanger's love child and still cost us several wins a season because he is so terrible offensively. Hernandez really doesn't even deserve to start at Bowie, its laughable to suggest starting him in Baltimore.

There simply isn't anywhere that Miguel Tejada could play in Baltimore other than SS that doesn't hurt the team overall if we fill SS with an in-house player. You have to go outside the organization and get a SS to make moving Tejada from SS an even remotely worthwhile move.

[MikeAD]

I find it immensely depressing that these threads keep getting more and more anti-Tejada supporters.

Its as simple as his ammount of errors and his fielding percentage...or even his ammount of Double Plays turned.

How anyone can look at his stats (YES HIS STATS) and say that he is even in the bottom half of the league is beyond me.

Yes he made an error last night, and maybe he will make one tommorow or a week from now too. But come on. For every ball that gets buy him he makes two more stellar plays that half of the league doesn't even get close to, so get over it. And to top that off, hes a damn good offensive SS.

I've posted this exact link FIVE times now on Eli's threads.

I know 12 posts will come after this that "its not about stats" but right now YES IT IS.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=7&sortColumn=fieldingPct&sortOrder=true&split=82&qualified=null&season=2007&seasonType=2

And don't even try to use the "he was on the DL for a month" excuse, because if you average out the innings hes still in the bottom three in erros and top five in percentage.

This just keeps getting more and more inane.

[Chollie Eckman]

Heaven forbid when Hernandez makes an error in Sept. that costs us a game. LOL.

My take on all of this is trade Tejada and Gibbons for Jay Bruce.

[Mackus]

My take on all of this is trade Tejada and Gibbons for Jay Bruce.Wayne Krivsky is pretty dumb, but no way would he be dumb enough to do that trade.

[MikeAD]

Heaven forbid when Hernandez makes an error in Sept. that costs us a game. LOL.

My take on all of this is trade Tejada and Gibbons for Jay Bruce.

Fortunately, we won't likely find that out because we have an All Star Calibur SS that plays EVERYDAY. He might get one or two days "off" in September at DH, but who knows if Hernandez will even be with the big club then.

Theres always Fahey and a healthy Bynum.

And we all know that Bynum doesn't make errors...hes the man ;)

[Eli Eon]

Luis Hernandez has a .580 OPS at Bowie. That's about the same as Paul Bako does in the majors, except Hernandez is doing it against mainly 19-25 year olds many of whom will never see the light of AAA. A reasonable expectation for a major league translation of a .580 OPS in AA is maybe a .500 in the majors. The lowest OPS in the majors among qualifiers is .573. Hernandez is that bad against AA pitching.

It's reasonable to assume he'd be the single worst-hitting regular in the major leagues, and it wouldn't be close. WRONG!!
Oriole DHs, by comparison, have a .694 OPS, roughly 200 points better than what we can expect out of Hernandez.

For this move to begin to make any sense at all Tejada would have to be, by far, the worst fielding shortstop in baseball. He's not.

Yeah, Hernandez was really killing the Orioles with his Bako-like hitting?:rolleyes:
One could only wish Bako could hit like this in the major leagues!:p


.333 .333

Name Luis Hernandez
Born 6/26/1984
Height 5-10
Weight 165
Number 2
Position SS
Bats S
Throws R


Season Avg. SLG G AB R H TB 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS E
YTD .333 .389 13 36 4 12 14 2 0 0 4 1 8 1 0 0


Last 10 Avg. AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI W SO
@ TAM 8/4 .333 4 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 2
vs. NYY 7/29 .344 4 0 2 0 0 0 2 0 2
vs. TAM 7/26 .321 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
vs. TAM 7/25 .321 4 0 2 0 0 0 1 0 0
vs. TAM 7/24 .292 4 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 2
@ OAK 7/22 .300 4 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
@ OAK 7/20 .313 4 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1
@ SEA 7/17 .333 4 1 2 0 0 0 0 1 1
vs. CWS 7/15 .250 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
vs. CWS 7/14 .250 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0


Who cares about his minor league numbers when he is hitting .333 against ML pitching and playing sparkling defense? I say they should have given the kid a chance. :( It would be different he was hitting .093 like some people claim he would. But the point is he was hitting just fine! I would take this hitting over any LF er we have right now. You know what they say about making assumptions!:eek: :rolleyes:

[MikeAD]

Yeah, Hernandez was really killing the Orioles with his Bako-like hitting?:rolleyes:
One could only wish Bako could hit like this in the major leagues!:p


.333 .333

Name Luis Hernandez
Born 6/26/1984
Height 5-10
Weight 165
Number 2
Position SS
Bats S
Throws R


Season Avg. SLG G AB R H TB 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS E
YTD .333 .389 13 36 4 12 14 2 0 0 4 1 8 1 0 0


Last 10 Avg. AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI W SO
@ TAM 8/4 .333 4 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 2
vs. NYY 7/29 .344 4 0 2 0 0 0 2 0 2
vs. TAM 7/26 .321 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
vs. TAM 7/25 .321 4 0 2 0 0 0 1 0 0
vs. TAM 7/24 .292 4 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 2
@ OAK 7/22 .300 4 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
@ OAK 7/20 .313 4 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1
@ SEA 7/17 .333 4 1 2 0 0 0 0 1 1
vs. CWS 7/15 .250 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
vs. CWS 7/14 .250 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0


Who cares about his minor league numbers when he is hitting 333 against ML pitching and playing sparkling defense? I say they should have given the kid a chance. :( It would be different he was hitting .093 like some people claim he would. But the point is he was hitting just fine! I would take this hitting over any LF er we have right now.:eek: :rolleyes:


Dude, are you serious?

Drungo has told you before..MLB history is FULL of guys who have great stats in a small ammount of time.

Luis Hernandez does not have the same stats in his Minor League Career, at his age, its not likely that it all just clicked all at once.

Nobody has ever rolled their eyes as much as you.

Only seven more posts left...

[Lucky Jim]

Yeah, Hernandez was really killing the Orioles with his Bako-like hitting?:rolleyes:
One could only wish Bako could hit like this in the major leagues!:p


.333 .333

Name Luis Hernandez
Born 6/26/1984
Height 5-10
Weight 165
Number 2
Position SS
Bats S
Throws R


Season Avg. SLG G AB R H TB 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS E
YTD .333 .389 13 36 4 12 14 2 0 0 4 1 8 1 0 0


Last 10 Avg. AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI W SO
@ TAM 8/4 .333 4 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 2
vs. NYY 7/29 .344 4 0 2 0 0 0 2 0 2
vs. TAM 7/26 .321 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
vs. TAM 7/25 .321 4 0 2 0 0 0 1 0 0
vs. TAM 7/24 .292 4 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 2
@ OAK 7/22 .300 4 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
@ OAK 7/20 .313 4 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1
@ SEA 7/17 .333 4 1 2 0 0 0 0 1 1
vs. CWS 7/15 .250 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
vs. CWS 7/14 .250 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0


Who cares about his minor league numbers when he is hitting 333 against ML pitching and playing sparkling defense? I say they should have given the kid a chance. :( It would be different he was hitting .093 like some people claim he would. I would take this hitting over any LF er we have right now.:eek: :rolleyes:


Sample size
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

The sample size of a statistical sample is the number of repeated measurements that constitute it. It is typically denoted n, and is a non-negative integer.

Typically, different sample sizes lead to different accuracies of measurement. This can be seen in such statistical rules as the law of large numbers and the central limit theorem. All else being equal, a larger sample size n leads to increased precision in estimates of various properties of the population.

A typical example would be when a statistician wishes to estimate the arithmetic mean of a continuous random variable (for example, the height of a person). Assuming that they have a random sample with independent observations, then if the variability of the population (as measured by the standard deviation σ) is known, then the standard error of the sample mean is given by the formula:

\sigma/\sqrt{n}

It is easy to show that as n becomes large, this variability becomes very small. This yields to more sensitive hypothesis tests with greater Statistical power and smaller confidence intervals.

With more complicated sampling techniques, such as Stratified sampling, the sample can often be split up into sub-samples. Typically, if there are k such sub-samples (from k different strata) then each of them will have a sample size ni, i = 1, 2, ..., k. These ni must conform to the rule that n1 + n2 + ... + nk = n (i.e. that the total sample size is given by the sum of the sub-sample sizes). Selecting these ni optimally can be done in various ways, using (for example) Neyman's optimal allocation.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size

We care about his minor league numbers because they're a more accurate predictor of long-range success. Man this argument has gotten old. And stale. And redundant. And idiotic. We're not the dense ones here.

[Chollie Eckman]

Actually Tejada admitted that the error cost the team the game.

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/roch/blog/2007/08/sifting_through_the_rubble.html

If this was previously posted forgive me.

[JTrea81]

It instantly makes the team better defensively. But it also instantly makes the team far worse offensively. Hence, it instantly makes the team as a whole worse.

Why don't we just move Tejada to 3rd, play Hernandez at SS and move Mora to the OF? Doesn't that make the most sense? Tejada can get acclimated to 3rd for those teams that need a 3rd baseman. Now that his power is returning, we don't have to worry about production from him at 3B. Mora's defense has been pretty bad since he came back from the DL and a move the OF might be better for him and the team defensively.

[Eli Eon]

Dude, are you serious?

Drungo has told you before..MLB history is FULL of guys who have great stats in a small ammount of time.

Luis Hernandez does not have the same stats in his Minor League Career, at his age, its not likely that it all just clicked all at once.

Nobody has ever rolled their eyes as much as you.

Only seven more posts left...

Well you can believe Drungo and his stats related crystal ball, but I prefer in believing what I saw on the field. If stats were so GD reliable how come guys like Drungo can't predict games individually as to who will win and what the score's gonna be and clean up in Vegas? I will answer that one for ya, there are too many variables!:eek: :p

[Mashed Potatoes]

Amongst qualified MLB short stops in 2007, Miguel Tejada...

Has a .974 fielding %, good for 10th in the majors.

Has committed 9 errors, only 3 short stops have less.

Has a zone rating of .852, good for 5th in the majors.

10th, 4th, 5th, horrendous!


Of course all I have to do is use my eyes and actually watch the games, and abandon logic, and forget my education, and to hit myself in the head with a tac hammer, to realize that this team would be better off with Miguel Tejada not at short stop.

[Lucky Jim]

Well you can believe Drungo and his stats related crystal ball, but I prefer in believing what I saw on the field. If stats were so GD reliable how come guys like Drungo can't predict games individually as to who will win and what the score's gonna be and clean up in Vegas? I will answer that one for ya, there are too many variables!:eek: :p

Now I know what Sisyphus felt like.

[Chollie Eckman]

Why don't we just move Tejada to 3rd, play Hernandez at SS and move Mora to the OF? Doesn't that make the most sense? Tejada can get acclimated to 3rd for those teams that need a 3rd baseman. Now that his power is returning, we don't have to worry about production from him at 3B. Mora's defense has been pretty bad since he came back from the DL and a move the OF might be better for him and the team defensively.
Trade him now while he still has some value. He's no ARod. I bet that move would be a disaster. Trade him for a promising left fielder or DH. Trade him now.