New approach to steroids: BMI limit?

[DrungoHazewood]

Maybe this is completely crazy, but maybe it has some merit.

What if, instead of testing the heck out of every major league player for steroids and other PEDs, they just institute a BMI limit? You know, body mass index (http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/), a simple calculation of the ratio of your mass to your height. If you're over some set threshold, you're out until you drop below the limit. Test everyone in the spring, at the All Star break, and just before the postseason.

Yes, this will have it's problems. For one, it'll hurt fat players. Or at least force them to slim down. Maybe that's not all bad. I don't know.

But muscle weighs more than fat. Players who have massive amounts of muscle will blow up the BMI scale. So it'll hurt players who're just workout fiends who don't use steroids. But I think it might be very effective in catching steriod abusers, and might be the only reliable way to catch people who're using undetectable designer PEDs.

Yes, it'll miss a few players who use 'roids sparingly. And yes, it'll miss players who use greenies. Maybe you could still test for non-muscle-building drugs. Yes, it's a one-size-fits-all solution to a problem that encompasses an almost infinite array of body types.

One of the undercurrents of the steroid era is that some people think muscle-bound sluggers make home runs "cheaper". This effectively caps the amount of muscle any player can have, obtained by any means. If you're someone who yearns for a return to the 1910s, the days of little guys stealing bases, this is one of the quickest ways there.

Crazy? Unworkable? Illegal? Brilliant?

[ChrisP]

ACLU will fight for the fat players. Interesting, but it would never get even remote consideration because of that.

[DrungoHazewood]

ACLU will fight for the fat players. Interesting, but it would never get even remote consideration because of that.

Doesn't the ACLU fight against random testing of people for whom there's absolutely no evidence they've ever used drugs?

[ChrisP]

LOL, I don't know. I just know they stick their noses in everything where someone might not be treated PC.

[HookMan]

Man, if this happens then my major league dreams will be dashed!

[DrungoHazewood]

Man, if this happens then my major league dreams will be dashed!

This the one thing I have going for me! There may be a point in the future where Brandon Fahey and I are the only people in the world who aren't under suspicion for steroid use. That's my ticket to The Show! :D

[66-70-83-??]

Maybe this is completely crazy, but maybe it has some merit.

What if, instead of testing the heck out of every major league player for steroids and other PEDs, they just institute a BMI limit? You know, body mass index (http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/), a simple calculation of the ratio of your mass to your height. If you're over some set threshold, you're out until you drop below the limit. Test everyone in the spring, at the All Star break, and just before the postseason.

Yes, this will have it's problems. For one, it'll hurt fat players. Or at least force them to slim down. Maybe that's not all bad. I don't know.

But muscle weighs more than fat. Players who have massive amounts of muscle will blow up the BMI scale. So it'll hurt players who're just workout fiends who don't use steroids. But I think it might be very effective in catching steriod abusers, and might be the only reliable way to catch people who're using undetectable designer PEDs.

Yes, it'll miss a few players who use 'roids sparingly. And yes, it'll miss players who use greenies. Maybe you could still test for non-muscle-building drugs. Yes, it's a one-size-fits-all solution to a problem that encompasses an almost infinite array of body types.

One of the undercurrents of the steroid era is that some people think muscle-bound sluggers make home runs "cheaper". This effectively caps the amount of muscle any player can have, obtained by any means. If you're someone who yearns for a return to the 1910s, the days of little guys stealing bases, this is one of the quickest ways there.

Crazy? Unworkable? Illegal? Brilliant?

:rolleyes:

Or if you are a MLBPA apologist and hero worshipper of anyone who puts a jersey with a number on their back- just forget about any tests. Just keep making excuses for them and insulting anyone who brings up the silly notion that steroid abuse is any different than taking a One-A-Day vitamin or the even sillier notion that steroids could actually help a player on the field. :rolleyes:

Some experts already beat you to the punch with their own formula.

Excerpt from Game Of Shadows:

The belief that changes in Bonds body reflect steroid use is supported by the research of Harvard University psychiatrist Harrison Pope, and expert in mental-health effects of steroid abuse. In 1995, in The Clinical Journal of Sports Medicine, Pope and three colleagues published a mathmatical formula for use in determining whether a person is using steroids.

The "Fat Free Mass Index", as the formula is called predicts steroid use from a series of computations involving the subjects "lean muscle mass" which is determined form height, weight, and percentage of body fat. The higher the index number, the leaner and more muscular the individual is. The average 30 year old American male scores 20, Pope says, while the former Mr. America Steve Reeves, the most famous muscle man of the pre-steroid era, scored 25 in his prime. A score of 25 or more indicates steroid use.

In 1997, when Bonds reportedly weighed 206 and had 8 percent body fat, he scored 24.8 on the index- near the upper limit of musclularity one can attain without steroids.

In 2002, when Bonds reportedly weighed 228 and had body fat of 6.2 percent, Bonds score on Pope's index was 28- well over the level of a "presumtive diagnosis" of steroid use.

[66-70-83-??]

FWIW, while we are on the topic.....

Also in Game of Shadows: Stan Conte (Giants Trainer, no relation to Vic Conte of BALCO) and Mike Murphy (Giants Equip Mgr) testified under oath to the grand jury about Bonds.

During Bonds tenure with the Giants:

Jersey size increased from a 42 to a 52

Cleat size from 10.5 to 13.5

Cap size from 7-1/8 to 7-1/4 (even though he had taken to shaving his head).


The changes in his foot and head size were of special interest: medical experts said overuse of human growth hormone could cause an adults extremities to begin growing, aping the symptoms of the glandular disorder acromegaly.

[DrungoHazewood]

:rolleyes:

Or if you are a MLBPA apologist and hero worshipper of anyone who puts a jersey with a number on their back- just forget about any tests. Just keep making excuses for them and insulting anyone who brings up the silly notion that steroid abuse is any different than taking a One-A-Day vitamin or the even sillier notion that steroids could actually help a player on the field. :rolleyes:

Some experts already beat you to the punch with their own formula.

Excerpt from Game Of Shadows:

Wow... overreact much? I propose a possible solution to a problem, you riddle the crowd (or was that just me?) with machine gun fire. Good job. :rolleyes:

If I was a toady for the MLBPA and steroid users why would I even go to the trouble of proposing a solution. Who needs solutions to non-problems?

[TGO]

Interesting idea, but BMI is highly flawed. For instance, Cal Ripken, Jr. is 6'4" and played at about 225 pounds. His BMI is 27.4, which is squarely in the middle of the overweight category. I think we can all agree that Cal was neither fat nor overly muscular when he played.

Jason Giambi, who most people believe to have used steroids, has a BMI of 29.4, also in the overweight category.

So where do you set the number so you don't equate someone like Cal to someone like Giambi? 29? Then you're going to pick up an awful lot of players, I'd bet.

Then there's the issue that teams have always played it fast and loose with listed heights and weights. Short guys are made taller, fat guys lighter, and skinny guys heavier.

[66-70-83-??]

Wow... overreact much? I propose a possible solution to a problem, you riddle the crowd (or was that just me?) with machine gun fire. Good job. :rolleyes:

If I was a toady for the MLBPA and steroid users why would I even go to the trouble of proposing a solution. Who needs solutions to non-problems?

Oh, please.

You are always dishing it out in the same BP snarky/sarcastic manner.

[davearm]

Tall skinny guys like Markakis and Fahey could use steroids for a decade and still not be tripping off any BMI alarms, while completely clean guys would be getting nabbed just for being fat (not that I'll miss you, Prince).

Just by instituting an IOC-styled testing protocol that includes blood testing and more rigorous sampling, baseball would put themselves way out in front of the curve.

MLB is not nearly that interested in solving the problem though (IMO), and besides, the union would obviously take an "over my dead body" stance.

[TGO]

Tall skinny guys like Markakis and Fahey could use steroids for a decade and still not be tripping off any BMI alarms, while completely clean guys would be getting nabbed just for being fat (not that I'll miss you, Prince).

Just by instituting an IOC-styled testing protocol that includes blood testing and more rigorous sampling, baseball would put themselves way out in front of the curve.

MLB is not nearly that interested in solving the problem though (IMO), and besides, the union would obviously take an "over my dead body" stance.

I agree that blood testing is definitely the way to go. Were I in the position of MLB and the owners I would be willing to go to the mat for it. But the people there now are not that willing, as you said. Drungo's idea is unworkable but it's at least an interesting outside the box idea to get around the blood testing issue.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Interesting idea, but BMI is highly flawed. For instance, Cal Ripken, Jr. is 6'4" and played at about 225 pounds. His BMI is 27.4, which is squarely in the middle of the overweight category. I think we can all agree that Cal was neither fat nor overly muscular when he played.

Jason Giambi, who most people believe to have used steroids, has a BMI of 29.4, also in the overweight category.

So where do you set the number so you don't equate someone like Cal to someone like Giambi? 29? Then you're going to pick up an awful lot of players, I'd bet.

Then there's the issue that teams have always played it fast and loose with listed heights and weights. Short guys are made taller, fat guys lighter, and skinny guys heavier.

Yeah.

In terms of height and weight, I compare favorably with Jamal Lewis (about 5' 10"/11", 245-250 lbs.). However, if you put us next to each other, you wouldn't confuse us for similar body types.

It's an interesting thought, and maybe that adjusted number with body fat percentage would work better, but there are flaws no matter what way one uses to find steroid users.

[blueberryale77]

What about testing hair samples? That's a lot less intrusive than blood samples and can detect use over a longer period of time (hence preventing players from roiding it up at the beginning of the offseason to jumpstart their strength-building workouts)? Of course, I don't know what happens with bald guys... and for those who choose to shave their heads it would mean forcing them to change their hairstyle which is a little draconian. Maybe armpit hair or something?

I don't think the BMI could work because it's not conclusive enough. Some minute percentage of people are just freaks of nature. You'd have to look at changes in their BMI (or other related measurement) over a pretty long time to get anything close to conclusive. What about people who actually have acromegaly naturally? (I guess you could argue that Andre the Giant died because he refused to get his disorder treated and this might have forced him to get treatment but honestly I think that was his right to choose no matter how stupid I may think it was.)

[DrungoHazewood]

Interesting idea, but BMI is highly flawed. For instance, Cal Ripken, Jr. is 6'4" and played at about 225 pounds. His BMI is 27.4, which is squarely in the middle of the overweight category. I think we can all agree that Cal was neither fat nor overly muscular when he played.

Jason Giambi, who most people believe to have used steroids, has a BMI of 29.4, also in the overweight category.

So where do you set the number so you don't equate someone like Cal to someone like Giambi? 29? Then you're going to pick up an awful lot of players, I'd bet.

Then there's the issue that teams have always played it fast and loose with listed heights and weights. Short guys are made taller, fat guys lighter, and skinny guys heavier.

You clearly wouldn't set the limit around normal standards for you and me. You'd set it at some reasonable level for high-caliber professional athletes.

Are those Ripken and Giambi numbers real-life, or are they calcluated using baseball-reference heights and weights? 'Cause I'm pretty sure Cecil Fielder was using his weight on the day he was drafted as his official weight most of his career, which was actually about the weight of his left leg. That's why I suggested real weigh-ins and height measurements several times a year.

But maybe it is unworkable - maybe there's just too much overlap between different body types and users, non-users, clean weight lifters, etc.

[TyCobb]

Maybe this is completely crazy, but maybe it has some merit.

What if, instead of testing the heck out of every major league player for steroids and other PEDs, they just institute a BMI limit? You know, body mass index (http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/), a simple calculation of the ratio of your mass to your height. If you're over some set threshold, you're out until you drop below the limit. Test everyone in the spring, at the All Star break, and just before the postseason.

Yes, this will have it's problems. For one, it'll hurt fat players. Or at least force them to slim down. Maybe that's not all bad. I don't know.

But muscle weighs more than fat. Players who have massive amounts of muscle will blow up the BMI scale. So it'll hurt players who're just workout fiends who don't use steroids. But I think it might be very effective in catching steriod abusers, and might be the only reliable way to catch people who're using undetectable designer PEDs.

Yes, it'll miss a few players who use 'roids sparingly. And yes, it'll miss players who use greenies. Maybe you could still test for non-muscle-building drugs. Yes, it's a one-size-fits-all solution to a problem that encompasses an almost infinite array of body types.

One of the undercurrents of the steroid era is that some people think muscle-bound sluggers make home runs "cheaper". This effectively caps the amount of muscle any player can have, obtained by any means. If you're someone who yearns for a return to the 1910s, the days of little guys stealing bases, this is one of the quickest ways there.

Crazy? Unworkable? Illegal? Brilliant?


This has nothing to do with the topic, but isn't this a myth?

[DrungoHazewood]

This has nothing to do with the topic, but isn't this a myth?

(Goes and Googles topic)

Ok... how about this:

Dear Patrina,
Muscle weighs more than fat because muscle cells that compose muscle are
denser than fat cells. Why is this? Because fat cell cytoplasm contains
mostly oils (lipids), whereas muscle cell cytoplasm contains mostly
contractile proteins (myosin and actin) suspended in an aqueous (watery)
environment. Lipids in general are less dense than water. You can prove
this by mixing salad oil with water in a bottle and shaking it.
Eventually, the oil will separate from the water and float to the top to
form a lighter layer floating on top of the water. This lowered density of
lipids make fatty tissue less heavy than muscle.

From personal experience, I've been limited to more infrequent workouts since my kid was born in January. I've gained a small, but still noticable, amount of fat. I'm sure I've lost a comparable amount of muscle. I weigh less.

[mweb]

Well considering more pitchers have been caught than hitters, and these pitchers aren't huge, and considering guys like Alex Sanchez and Neifi Perez are being caught at least as much as big guys, I don't think it's a good solution.

[blueberryale77]

Well considering more pitchers have been caught than hitters, and these pitchers aren't huge, and considering guys like Alex Sanchez and Neifi Perez are being caught at least as much as big guys, I don't think it's a good solution.

Perez was busted multiple times for stimulants, not steroids, but that is a concern. If that were the only form of testing, Brandon Fahey and Freddie Bynum could easily go on steroids and get away with it for the rest of their careers because the steroids would only take them up to a BMI that would be normal for, say, Corey Patterson (or any pretty lean but not super skinny player).