Steroid users soon to become public according to article in the Sun

[oriole_way]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bal-sp.othervoices24aug24,0,6806701.story

(I apologize if this belongs in the MLB section. Feel free to move it as necessary.)

[Baltoravensrule]

I remember hearing about a year and a half ago or so that there was going to be a list coming out with alot of prominent names and it was coming very soon. It never did. I wonder if this will actually become public

[blueberryale77]

Yippee! More high horses for writers, bloggers, and casual fans to ride on! :D :rolleyes:

Seriously people... unless they look into MLB executives and management and what role they played in creating the culture of steroid use, this is as useful as figuring out which politicians smoked pot in college. The stuff was rampant. Maybe you can reveal a few dozen of Radomski's clients, but you're never going to prove who definitely didn't do steroids and you're never going to catch all the users. There's only one thing you can find: more scapegoats to make pathetic people feel better about themselves.

[Leitch]

I hope and pray that at least half of the names on that list are of the white, no-hit, get dirty, run hard type that are so beloved by the media and hailed as the second coming of the pure, morally superior Dead Ball Era III(or is it IV?)

[byrdz]

Seriously people... unless they look into MLB executives and management and what role they played in creating the culture of steroid use, this is as useful as figuring out which politicians smoked pot in college. The stuff was rampant. Maybe you can reveal a few dozen of Radomski's clients, but you're never going to prove who definitely didn't do steroids and you're never going to catch all the users. There's only one thing you can find: more scapegoats to make pathetic people feel better about themselves.

Well said, I just wonder when this will all be over. Hopefuly this is final scapegoat fest.

[oriole_way]

Yippee! More high horses for writers, bloggers, and casual fans to ride on! :D :rolleyes:

Seriously people... unless they look into MLB executives and management and what role they played in creating the culture of steroid use, this is as useful as figuring out which politicians smoked pot in college. The stuff was rampant. Maybe you can reveal a few dozen of Radomski's clients, but you're never going to prove who definitely didn't do steroids and you're never going to catch all the users. There's only one thing you can find: more scapegoats to make pathetic people feel better about themselves.

1. Nobody said anything about catching all the users or proving who definitely didn't do steroids.

2. Did typing that last line make you feel better about yourself?

[beaner]

Yippee! More high horses for writers, bloggers, and casual fans to ride on! :D :rolleyes:

Seriously people... unless they look into MLB executives and management and what role they played in creating the culture of steroid use, this is as useful as figuring out which politicians smoked pot in college. The stuff was rampant. Maybe you can reveal a few dozen of Radomski's clients, but you're never going to prove who definitely didn't do steroids and you're never going to catch all the users. There's only one thing you can find: more scapegoats to make pathetic people feel better about themselves.

Amen! I can't wait to hear about the "Integrity of the Game" again.

[rolliefingers]

I hope and pray that at least half of the names on that list are of the white, no-hit, get dirty, run hard type that are so beloved by the media and hailed as the second coming of the pure, morally superior Dead Ball Era III(or is it IV?)

I'm lookin' at YOU, Eckstein.

[blueberryale77]

1. Nobody said anything about catching all the users or proving who definitely didn't do steroids.

Well if you're not going to catch all the users, does it really help to point fingers at a few while holding up others who are just as guilty as examples of all that is "right" with the sport? Like with many other hot button social issues, there is a lot of room for racism or other types of bias to creep in to who the public views as "guilty" or "innocent" when you have only a few of the facts. Plus, again, there's the issue of the complicity of MLB in all of this which is not being addressed. MLB is pushing the witch hunt thing as a way to deflect attention from themselves and the public is buying into in hook line and sinker.


2. Did typing that last line make you feel better about yourself?

Not in the least. I hate having to talk about this. But as a baseball fan who a) views steroid users as human beings who made a mistake which is going to hurt them down the road more than it hurts anyone else, b) is sick and tired of not being able to enjoy the game because all anybody talks about is steroids, and c) is tired of seeing issues about the lifestyles of celebrities and entertainers trump stories about matters of actual importance to our society (aids, poverty, war, corporate greed, the environment, you name it), I get mad when I hear that there's going to be yet another big press release about steroids which is going to get more press coverage than the soldiers who die in Iraq that day or the children who can't get proper health care.

I know there are those who say, "it doesn't matter because the people who are obsessing over this wouldn't concern themselves with global issues anyway, they'd just be paying more attention to Paris Hilton if this weren't around," and I do see that point but this is more than that. This is something the federal government has gotten involved in, the "serious" media covers on a pretty regular basis, etc. Really, think about it. Relative to the amount of time and money that have been spent investigating steroids, is the "integrity" of a GAME (which has always had cheaters, as well as worse kinds of criminals and thugs) really worth all that compared to all the other projects in the world that could actually improve people's lives if they had more funding? Does the game really gain "integrity" by taking a hard line with drug users when it does less about players who commit acts of violence off the field?

And yeah, I find the self-righteous indignation offensive. Can everyone who's jumping up and down about how steroid using baseball players are horrible individuals who have no redeeming value and deserve to rot in hell with the rapists and child molesters say that they've never used drugs? Never borrowed answers to an exam? Copied homework? Fudged info on their resume? Done anything to unfairly gain advantage over someone else? I highly doubt it.

By the way, I wasn't objecting to you posting the article on here, but to the content of the article itself. You certainly have every right to start discussions on here about what's printed in the popular press or anywhere else. I just thought the author was way out of line with his moral outrage. I wish he were so outraged about our kids being harmed by evil Chinese industrialists who put lead paint in their toys to save a little on production costs instead of athletes screwing up their own lives.

[ScottieBaseball]

Yippee! More high horses for writers, bloggers, and casual fans to ride on! :D :rolleyes:

Seriously people... unless they look into MLB executives and management and what role they played in creating the culture of steroid use, this is as useful as figuring out which politicians smoked pot in college. The stuff was rampant. Maybe you can reveal a few dozen of Radomski's clients, but you're never going to prove who definitely didn't do steroids and you're never going to catch all the users. There's only one thing you can find: more scapegoats to make pathetic people feel better about themselves.

I don't know what it is exactly, but I can never buy into holding anyone responsible for broken rules/law than the offender themselves. Maybe I'm painting with a broad brush, but whether we're talking about steroids or mass murderers (unless some tangible mental defect exists), blaming executives or abusive dads, it's hogwash.

Obviously the impact/influence from front office types was negative, but ultimately no one is responsible but the steroids abusers themselves.

[blueberryale77]

I don't know what it is exactly, but I can never buy into holding anyone responsible for broken rules/law than the offender themselves. Maybe I'm painting with a broad brush, but whether we're talking about steroids or mass murderers (unless some tangible mental defect exists), blaming executives or abusive dads, it's hogwash.

Obviously the impact/influence from front office types was negative, but ultimately no one is responsible but the steroids abusers themselves.

The thing is, mass murderers hurt other people, very badly. Steroid users hurt primarily themselves. If someone provides material support to a mass murderer or harbors them while they're a fugitive from the law, they get punished too. Steroids are illegal for good reason and those found guilty of possessing them should face fines, community service, mandatory rehab, etc. the same way they would for any other illegal drug whether or not someone influenced them to do it. They also deserve a chance to rehabilitate themselves afterward just like any other person who has a drug problem. I just don't think Bud Selig is in much of a position to be handing out penalties for steroid use when he willingly and happily profited from it for years and continues to refuse to take any responsibility for that. If he resigned and there were a new commissioner who was not involved in MLB between 1995 and 2005, maybe that person would have some ground to stand on, but Selig does not and neither do most of his staff or most of the other owners. Most of the guys who used steroids in any significant quantity will pay the price eventually whether or not their transgressions make the front page of the newspaper.

[66-70-83-??]

I don't know what it is exactly, but I can never buy into holding anyone responsible for broken rules/law than the offender themselves. Maybe I'm painting with a broad brush, but whether we're talking about steroids or mass murderers (unless some tangible mental defect exists), blaming executives or abusive dads, it's hogwash.

Obviously the impact/influence from front office types was negative, but ultimately no one is responsible but the steroids abusers themselves.

I agree.

At least Selig gave the issue of drug testing lip service for many years.

Don Fehr was the chief obstructionist who would have nothing to do with any drug testing until he was forced into it by Congress.

The MLBPA is largely responsible for the public perception of baseball as a steroid ridden sport.

The MLBPA did NOTHING to elevate the innocent. They did NOTHING to expose the cheats. So, they have themselves to blame for the innocent players being guilty of association.

[scOtt]

One word in that article scares me. Scores of players. A score is 20. As in 4 score and 7 years ago, our forefathers brought forth unto this continent a new nation...

(4 * 20 ) + 7 = 87

87 years ago (from 1863...) was 1776.


Anyways... scores, plural, means 40 players (more than one per team), 60 (2 per team), 80 (almost 3 per team), etc.

2, 3, 4, more? Per team. This could be a horribly bad revelation. :(

[giantfan]

I remember hearing about a year and a half ago or so that there was going to be a list coming out with alot of prominent names and it was coming very soon. It never did. I wonder if this will actually become public

The list your referring to is probably the 2003 test and the 100 who tested positive, the feds have the list but it probably wont ever be released.

[mweb]

One word in that article scares me. Scores of players. A score is 20. As in 4 score and 7 years ago, our forefathers brought forth unto this continent a new nation...

(4 * 20 ) + 7 = 87

87 years ago (from 1863...) was 1776.


Anyways... scores, plural, means 40 players (more than one per team), 60 (2 per team), 80 (almost 3 per team), etc.

2, 3, 4, more? Per team. This could be a horribly bad revelation. :(

Not a surprising one at all though.

[scOtt]

Not a surprising one at all though.
Not really, but if it's that many players, there are bound to be surprises on top of the shame. What if someone like Surhoff is on the list, or dare I say it, Cal. :eek:

[geschinger]

The more information that is released the better. The quicker the better. Get everything that is confirmed on the record out there, let the media spend a few weeks blasting the sport and then we can all move on. It's certainly preferrable to have bits and pieces come out over time reopening the discussion every time it does. I could be wrong, but I don't think that MLB has the authority to suspend anyone for anything that happened prior to the new policies being implemented.

[Migrant Redbird]

I'm lookin' at YOU, Eckstein.

Why? It could just as easily be Ripken. I doubt if it will be either. The players that Radomski outs will probably be mostly those who played part or all of their careers in the NL and passed through the Mets visiting locker room frequently.

Players like McGwire, Sosa, Biggio, Bagwell, Lankford, Brian Jordan, Chipper Jones, Ryne Sandberg, and Andre Dawson are more likely candidates for being exposed by Radomski than Eckstein or Ripken.

SI/CNN article (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/08/21/radomski.mitchell2/index.html)


Radomski is said by federal authorities to have been a supplier of steroids to current and former major leaguers between 1995 and 2005 after previously working as a Mets clubby and batboy.

It's possible that some AL players were referred to Radomski by fellow players who came over from the NL, but I would expect those to be in the minority of those getting named. McGwire's alleged supplier was from the Bay area, IIRC.

It's likely that a lot of highly respected players dabbled with steroids at some point. I think that's probably what got McGwire in trouble when he was testifying before Congress. It's difficult to imagine a boy growing up around Southern California's Muscle Beach culture not having considered experimenting with steroids at one time or another, especially if he spent a lot of time in the gyms working out.

[ScottieBaseball]

The thing is, mass murderers hurt other people, very badly. Steroid users hurt primarily themselves. If someone provides material support to a mass murderer or harbors them while they're a fugitive from the law, they get punished too. Steroids are illegal for good reason and those found guilty of possessing them should face fines, community service, mandatory rehab, etc. the same way they would for any other illegal drug whether or not someone influenced them to do it. They also deserve a chance to rehabilitate themselves afterward just like any other person who has a drug problem. I just don't think Bud Selig is in much of a position to be handing out penalties for steroid use when he willingly and happily profited from it for years and continues to refuse to take any responsibility for that. If he resigned and there were a new commissioner who was not involved in MLB between 1995 and 2005, maybe that person would have some ground to stand on, but Selig does not and neither do most of his staff or most of the other owners. Most of the guys who used steroids in any significant quantity will pay the price eventually whether or not their transgressions make the front page of the newspaper.

I understand your argument but disagree with the theory. I don't think your 'harboring a known fugitive' is an apples-to-apples comparison. I'm not sure it will ever be proven that Selig and other front office execs knew with 100% certainty that anyone was using steroids. Several players have already pointed the finger toward the front office, but it was their very own Players Association that prevented any meaningful testing program to be implemented until recently. I'm not saying the front office execs were powerless by any means, but the players who are guilty are exponentially more responsible. The MLB commish is nothing more than a figurehead for owners and not a real commissioner like David Stern and Roger Goodell. Aside from declaring an All Star game a tie there has been very little significant power associated with the job.

[bobmc]

Why? It could just as easily be Ripken. I doubt if it will be either. The players that Radomski outs will probably be mostly those who played part or all of their careers in the NL and passed through the Mets visiting locker room frequently.

Players like McGwire, Sosa, Biggio, Bagwell, Lankford, Brian Jordan, Chipper Jones, Ryne Sandberg, and Andre Dawson are more likely candidates for being exposed by Radomski than Eckstein or Ripken.

SI/CNN article (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/08/21/radomski.mitchell2/index.html)



It's possible that some AL players were referred to Radomski by fellow players who came over from the NL, but I would expect those to be in the minority of those getting named. McGwire's alleged supplier was from the Bay area, IIRC.

It's likely that a lot of highly respected players dabbled with steroids at some point. I think that's probably what got McGwire in trouble when he was testifying before Congress. It's difficult to imagine a boy growing up around Southern California's Muscle Beach culture not having considered experimenting with steroids at one time or another, especially if he spent a lot of time in the gyms working out.

The SI/CNN article you cite has a link to this story (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jon_heyman/05/23/kirk.radomski/index.html) on Radomski, which yielded this temptingly tasty tidbit:

Associates say Radomski had all sorts of money-making schemes and never tired of work. One noted how he was back at work the day after he returned from accepting his plea in San Francisco. "All he did was drive," another recalled. "One time I remember he drove to Baltimore just to deliver a package. What was in it, I don't know."

[blueberryale77]

Why? It could just as easily be Ripken...

Stallion...er...uh... Mr. Fingers... was just making a joke about Eckstein because someone else had said he hoped at least half the guys named would be 'scrappy little white guy' types.

[Migrant Redbird]

Stallion...er...uh... Mr. Fingers... was just making a joke about Eckstein because someone else had said he hoped at least half the guys named would be 'scrappy little white guy' types.

I've gotten the impression in the past that there is a significant minority of O's fans who find Eckstein and the hype over his WS MVP to be irritating.

[RVAbird]

I've gotten the impression in the past that there is a significant minority of O's fans who find Eckstein and the hype over his WS MVP to be irritating.

I don't put too much weight on things like World Series MVPs, so I'm indifferent to that. I've never commented on Eckstein before but I honestly don't see what the hype is about. A 709 career OPS and average speed isn't appealing to me. I've got nothing against the guy, but he does kind of feed the fire of that whole scrappy gutsy intangible stereotype that drives me nuts.

You get to see him on a daily basis I assume, so what are your thoughts?

[ledzepp8]

I've gotten the impression in the past that there is a significant minority of O's fans who find Eckstein and the hype over his WS MVP to be irritating.

I don't think this opinion is held only by O's fans.

[Fist Bump]

Steroid users hurt primarily themselves.

They also indirectly can hurt the player that is not using them but is sitting on the bench (or in the minors) behind the player that is using them. I have sympathy for the people that are playing by the rules but are losing opportunities to live their dream to those that are not playing by the rules.

[Migrant Redbird]

You get to see him on a daily basis I assume, so what are your thoughts?

I love scrappy ballplayers and I think Eckstein has a lot of character, but I'd rather have good ballplayers on my own team. Eckstein is OK, but the Cardinals have burdened themselves with another modest hitting infielder on a 3 year contract in the person of Adam Kennedy, and one of those types is about all I feel that they can afford. I'd take Eckstein over Kennedy, but Adam's still got 2 years left on his contract and no one is going to take him in trade without asking for some accompanying cash.

I'm ready to let Eckstein go, rather than offer him arbitration. Aaron Miles is lower priced insurance and more flexible in where he can play. The Cards have several young middle infielders now who deserve chances next spring, and they'll not get many if the Cards keep both Eckstein and Kennedy around.

[Ruzious]

I'm lookin' at YOU, Eckstein.
LOL, and I hope Leitch's comment was made toungue in cheek.

Anyway, I think it's a good thing to list all of the people who failed the drug test. It helps by embarrassing the ones who got caught and exonnerating the ones who successfully used masking agents... er, I mean exonnerates those who didn't cheat.