CB Bucknor: How bad is he really?

[blueberryale77]

This guy seems to have a bad and ever growing reputation around baseball as "the worst umpire" or at least one of the worst. I've seen him make several really terrible calls and a lot that I didn't exactly agree with, but I've also seen a lot of other umpires appear to be incompetent with less fanfare. I wonder to what extent I notice his terrible calls more because his reputation precedes him. Does anyone know of any performance metrics for umpires that are available to the public? Obviously it would be difficult, but you could compare an umpire's strike zone to a computerized ball and strike caller, go through and analyze video and estimate a percentage of wrong calls, or even just keep stats on how many arguments different umpires get from managers or how many players and coaches they eject.

I ask this now because of his highly controversial interference call against Marlon Anderson (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/wires/08/30/2010.ap.bbn.nl.rdp.1085/)which cost the Mets a game against the Phillies this week, but I've been wondering about him for awhile. Does he get picked on more because he's one of very, very few black umpires? Or is there any truth to the sentiment I've heard numerous times that he would never have made it to the majors or would have been somehow relieved of his duties by now if he were white? Is the problem regular racism, reverse racism, or just innocent, old-fashioned bad umpiring?

[tywright]

He was also the ump who was missing calls in the Red Sox series a couple weeks back

[tywright]

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/roch/blog/2007/08/calling_out_cb.html


Calling out CB
CB Bucknor is the worst umpire not named Chuck Meriweather.

It's universally agreed upon by everyone in baseball. Good luck finding an argument.

Bucknor has infuriated the Orioles in one inning.

He wouldn't give Erik Bedard a strike against David Ortiz, and the left-hander stared down Bucknor as he walked to the dugout. Brian Roberts was called out on strikes and showed his displeasure.

Manager Dave Trembley won't be long for this game. He stood on the top step and screamed at Bucknor after a called third strike on Nick Markakis. Bucknor removed his mask and took a few steps toward Trembley, then angrily motioned for him to sit down.

Bucknor might be making another gesture at Trembley real soon. If I was Trembley, I'd be making one right back - just not in view of the kids.

[tywright]

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/roch/blog/2007/08/shocking_news.html


CB Bucknor blew another call.

Eric Hinske was out at second base in the ninth inning. The replays showed it. Brian Robertes applied the tag before Hinske's foot hit the bag. But Bucknor called him safe.

Luckily for the Orioles, the latest Bucknor brain-cramp didn't cost them - though it forced Danys Baez to throw a few more pitches.

[rolliefingers]

Bucknor is pretty bad, but I think he was right to call interference on Anderson. He clearly went out of his way to obstruct the throw.

[ChrisAF79]

Bucknor is pretty bad, but I think he was right to call interference on Anderson. He clearly went out of his way to obstruct the throw.
Agreed. Bucknor is a terrible ump, but his interference call on Marlon Anderson was absolutely correct. I have to give him some credit, because that was a ballsy call to make in that situation.

[TGO]

The book on Bucknor is that he relishes antagonizing the home team fans and will always favor the roadies. He is also supposedly very aggressive. I haven't watched enough of him to know if this is true, but that is what I have read about him numerous times.

I don't think the fact that he is black has anything to do with it (and I hope it doesn't), I think it's the fact that he is perceived to be so antagonistic.

[BustaJ2632]

The call on Anderson was 100% correct...and for the next month (or two, I hope), I'll admit that I'm jumping on the Phillies bandwagon. For one thing...I'm here. It wouldn't be a bad thing if I could see some postseason baseball live. For another thing...they're such an easy team to like. Jimmy Rollins is, IMO, the best shortstop in MLB. Ryan Howard is a beast. Hamels is exciting - hope he comes back soon. And guys like Utley, Rowand, Victorino...they just play all out all the time. Also would be nice to see Jamie Moyer get some postseason success at long last.

[rolliefingers]

The call on Anderson was 100% correct...and for the next month (or two, I hope), I'll admit that I'm jumping on the Phillies bandwagon. For one thing...I'm here. It wouldn't be a bad thing if I could see some postseason baseball live. For another thing...they're such an easy team to like. Jimmy Rollins is, IMO, the best shortstop in MLB. Ryan Howard is a beast. Hamels is exciting - hope he comes back soon. And guys like Utley, Rowand, Victorino...they just play all out all the time. Also would be nice to see Jamie Moyer get some postseason success at long last.

I agree, they're a fun team to watch.

[blueberryale77]

The call on Anderson was 100% correct...and for the next month (or two, I hope), I'll admit that I'm jumping on the Phillies bandwagon. For one thing...I'm here. It wouldn't be a bad thing if I could see some postseason baseball live. For another thing...they're such an easy team to like. Jimmy Rollins is, IMO, the best shortstop in MLB. Ryan Howard is a beast. Hamels is exciting - hope he comes back soon. And guys like Utley, Rowand, Victorino...they just play all out all the time. Also would be nice to see Jamie Moyer get some postseason success at long last.

If Brett Myers would drop dead I would see your point. As it is, while I acknowledge that all the players you mention are good, my overwhelming hatred of him trumps any respect for them. In a way it would be kind of funny to see them go to the WS and Pat Burrell be the MVP because I don't know what the angry, hate-filled Philly fan mob would do. On the other hand, he's kind of an arrogant jerk and I rather suspect that roids had something to do with him falling off the table in his mid to late 20s so while I don't think he should be banished from the face of the earth forever I don't really want to see him get redemption in that big of a way. Then there's this little matter of having committed myself to the Mets as my NL team last year when they were all aggressive and exciting. They really are makin me mad this year, but I don't want to be a fair weather fan even of my #2 team.

[square634]

The call on Anderson was 100% correct...and for the next month (or two, I hope), I'll admit that I'm jumping on the Phillies bandwagon. For one thing...I'm here. It wouldn't be a bad thing if I could see some postseason baseball live. For another thing...they're such an easy team to like. Jimmy Rollins is, IMO, the best shortstop in MLB. Ryan Howard is a beast. Hamels is exciting - hope he comes back soon. And guys like Utley, Rowand, Victorino...they just play all out all the time. Also would be nice to see Jamie Moyer get some postseason success at long last.

Meh, I'm here now and I still can't manage to follow a team other than the O's. I got back to my room just in time to see the 9th inning yesterday :o

[bgfield]

Bucknor is pretty bad, but I think he was right to call interference on Anderson. He clearly went out of his way to obstruct the throw.

I didn't see this play (anyone have a link?) but how was it different than every other time a player tries to break up a double play? I see guys sliding well outside of the bag because that's where the SS/Second baseman happens to be standing. I can understand sliding in hard but when you're blatantly aiming for a guy who already tried to get out of the way, this should be called out every time.

Again I didn't see this play but if it's like how I described it, then the rule just needs to be enforced more consistently. If it's not going to be enforced 100% of the time, don't pick and choose when you're going to do it.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I didn't see this play (anyone have a link?) but how was it different than every other time a player tries to break up a double play? I see guys sliding well outside of the bag because that's where the SS/Second baseman happens to be standing. I can understand sliding in hard but when you're blatantly aiming for a guy who already tried to get out of the way, this should be called out every time.

Again I didn't see this play but if it's like how I described it, then the rule just needs to be enforced more consistently. If it's not going to be enforced 100% of the time, don't pick and choose when you're going to do it.

The second baseman took the toss from short on the centerfield side of the base, touched it as he crossed over, and jumped towards the infield grass to make the throw to first. The runner slid so his foot was touching second, but the rest of his body was on the infield side a good four feet inside the bag.

It was blatent interference, and anyone that is arguing otherwise (other then the Mets) probably has the aforementioned view of the umpire.

[rolliefingers]

What annoys me more than his bad umpiring is his lame acronym name. CB? What a dumb name. He just SOUNDS like the lamest guy ever.

[BaltimoreTerp]

What annoys me more than his bad umpiring is his lame acronym name. CB? What a dumb name. He just SOUNDS like the lamest guy ever.

And Bucknor (Buckner) is NOT a great baseball name on it's own!

[Lt Melmo]

I don't know about the interference call you're all talking about, but I do know that every game I watch with Bucknor behind the plate makes me a bit closer to going postal. He's consistently awful. His problem is that he always inserts himself into the game--taking advantage of the "human element" he's supposed to be providing, he purposely makes controversial calls to piss off the home fans and make himself a player on the field rather than an official who at least tries to be objective.

Do you see his strikeout call? And how dramatic it is? He gets his entire body into it, as if the strikeout is meant to be expressed by interpretive dance. I have no idea how he still has a job.

[bryanman8]

Laz Diaz is baseball's worst ump, bar none.

[blueberryale77]

I don't know about the interference call you're all talking about, but I do know that every game I watch with Bucknor behind the plate makes me a bit closer to going postal. He's consistently awful. His problem is that he always inserts himself into the game--taking advantage of the "human element" he's supposed to be providing, he purposely makes controversial calls to piss off the home fans and make himself a player on the field rather than an official who at least tries to be objective.

Do you see his strikeout call? And how dramatic it is? He gets his entire body into it, as if the strikeout is meant to be expressed by interpretive dance. I have no idea how he still has a job.

There was also the incident tonight where Liz hit Youkilis, obviously by accident, Youkilis just started jogging harmlessly to first base and Bucknor jumped out from behind the plate and got in front of Youkilis like he was going to tackle him to keep him from charging the mound. He definitely likes attention too much for an umpire.

[bgfield]

There was also the incident tonight where Liz hit Youkilis, obviously by accident, Youkilis just started jogging harmlessly to first base and Bucknor jumped out from behind the plate and got in front of Youkilis like he was going to tackle him to keep him from charging the mound. He definitely likes attention too much for an umpire.

You're leaving out the part where Youkilis held his bat over his head as if he were about to smash it over his knee.

[Captain E.]

Someone help me with this because my memory is fuzzy right now. There was a game against Texas in early July, in which (i) the strike call was horrendous for the entire game, and (ii) there was a badly blown call at home. After the home plate play, Palmer was so disgusted, saying it was one of the worst calls he'd seen, and blatantly calling out the ump.

What exactly were the details of this, am I missing anything? And wasn't CB Bucknor actually the very same ump that screwed us yet again?

[bgfield]

I wanna say the ump you're thinking of was a minor league ump replacing a guy who was on vacation but I could be wrong on that.

[Captain E.]

I wanna say the ump you're thinking of was a minor league ump replacing a guy who was on vacation but I could be wrong on that.

Yeah.. I do seem to recall him saying something about along the lines of the ump "should go back to the minor leagues".. but I wasn't sure if the call was just THAT bad.

[PaulFolk]

Someone help me with this because my memory is fuzzy right now. There was a game against Texas in early July, in which (i) the strike call was horrendous for the entire game, and (ii) there was a badly blown call at home. After the home plate play, Palmer was so disgusted, saying it was one of the worst calls he'd seen, and blatantly calling out the ump.

What exactly were the details of this, am I missing anything? And wasn't CB Bucknor actually the very same ump that screwed us yet again?
That was Brian Knight. Full story here (http://www.orioleshangout.com/article.asp?id=1074).

[PaulFolk]

Laz Diaz is baseball's worst ump, bar none.
Isn't Laz Diaz the one who kicked the arse of some idiot White Sox fan who tried to attack him on the field? He gets mad props for that, at least.

[Captain E.]

That was Brian Knight. Full story here (http://www.orioleshangout.com/article.asp?id=1074).

Excellent, thanks. What a lousy game.. :(

[scOtt]

Oddly enough, C.B. was the ONLY ump NOT involved in tonight's Trembey Earl impression.

[Danielos38]

Laz Diaz is baseball's worst ump, bar none.

Their are only two umpires in baseball that I can name. The fact that I know thier name is not a good thing. Those two umpires are C.B. Bucknor and Laz Diaz.

[bgfield]

The second baseman took the toss from short on the centerfield side of the base, touched it as he crossed over, and jumped towards the infield grass to make the throw to first. The runner slid so his foot was touching second, but the rest of his body was on the infield side a good four feet inside the bag.

It was blatent interference, and anyone that is arguing otherwise (other then the Mets) probably has the aforementioned view of the umpire.
Like I said, I see that happen all the time and nobody's called out for it. That's even better than what I usually see; usually I use guys actually aiming their whole body (foot included) towards the fielder without any part of them touching the second base bag. I think it's horrible - baseball is not a contact sport - but if the rule is going to be enforced, it needs to be enforced 100% of the time.

[pgsentinelmike]

I'll see you Bucknor and I'll raise you Jeff Nelson.

I seem to recall a home run by the Yankees that was originally called a foul ball a few years ago. I and a major league umpire got into a heated argument about that call on another discussion board.

[longflyball]

I can tolerate blown calls on the field. One can argue that they are too frequent, but they are nevertheless an inevitable part of the game. Being an advocate for a more reasonable level of offense, what really frosts me are basketball-sized strike zones. There's nothing more maddening than to watch a pitcher throw three strikes, get credit for only two, and then give up a base hit.

[DrungoHazewood]

I can tolerate blown calls on the field. One can argue that they are too frequent, but they are nevertheless an inevitable part of the game. Being an advocate for a more reasonable level of offense, what really frosts me are basketball-sized strike zones. There's nothing more maddening than to watch a pitcher throw three strikes, get credit for only two, and then give up a base hit.

Didn't you know that an ump's own, personal version of the strike zone is deeply rooted in the hallowed traditions of our national pastime? And that anything that might cause umps to call balls and strikes as stated by the rules (i.e. Questec) is an affront to everyone and everything that makes baseball good, just and right? We don't need correct calls, we need the same game that the Babe and Mick played. :rolleyes:

All joking aside, the presence of all these new trackers that enable us to precisely tell the trajectory of every pitch in almost real time are a really great innovation. It's in its infancy, but already a lot of researchers and writers have put together articles detailing umps' performances objectively. The more this kind of information gets distributed the closer we get to a day where an electronic umpire's aid will be standard and balls and strikes will be called to the book nearly 100% of the time. That day can't come soon enough for me.

[Migrant Redbird]

What annoys me more than his bad umpiring is his lame acronym name. CB? What a dumb name. He just SOUNDS like the lamest guy ever.

Sounds like a truck driver or a country music "singer". When driving cross country years ago before the advent of satellite radio, sometimes "hound dog music" was all that I could find on the radio. I would even search it out, on the theory that the annoyance value would help to keep me awake.

I can actually enjoy some country music in small doses, but I get my fill of the standard fare very quickly.


Agreed. Bucknor is a terrible ump, but his interference call on Marlon Anderson was absolutely correct. I have to give him some credit, because that was a ballsy call to make in that situation.

I haven't noticed Buckner (yet), but it was a non-call on interference which had Cardinals and Reds fans stirred up over the weekend.

Birds on the Bat: Brandon Phillips blames Pujols for pivotal play (http://www.birdsonthebat.org/showthread.php?t=46889)


In failing to turn that crucial double play Saturday, Phillips had some hard words for Albert:

"Pujols didn't slide," said Phillips. "Lesson learned. I'm a nice guy, but next time I'll throw it right through the (expletive). I play this game hard and don't try to hurt anybody. And I respect Pujols as a man and as a good player.

"But he came in standing up and that shows me he doesn't respect me in turning a double play," Phillips added. "You've seen that happen, guys get hit in the head, but I'm cool and don't have a beef with anybody. That showed me he tried to hurt me because he didn't slide or didn't try to get out of the way."

After the play, Phillips tried to say something to Pujols, but Pujols trotted off without listening.

"I tried to talk to him but he wouldn't listen and that led me to further realize that he didn't respect me," Phillips added. "From now on, I throw the ball through the guy, no matter who it is. I have to do my job. To me it was interference because he took a jab step inside the dirt to the grass. You're supposed to slide or get out of the way — but they won the game because of that."

Pujols had a quick and terse reaction.

"I play the game hard, play it that way every day," he said. "Next time I'll put him in left field."

In my opinion, Phillips is a whining baby. I don't know if Pujols respected him before that play, but I'd be willing to bet he doesn't now. Even little leaguers are taught to throw right at the incoming runner to force him to slide. Phillips was just surprised and botched the throw, keeping the inning alive in which the Cards scored the winning run. I'd be embarrassed if I were his manager, team mate, or a Reds fan.

Factors which should be taken into account are that

(1) Pujols has been playing with plantar fasciitis pain in his feet for years and that's flared up again, and he tweaked a hamstring about a week ago and has been playing under orders from La Russa to "run smart" on routine outs.

(2) Pujols was at the hospital with injured team mate, Juan Encarnacion, until 3 AM that morning and might have had Juan's injury on his mind when he responded so brusquely when reporters queried him regarding Phillips' remarks.

(3) It's the umpire's job to make the judgment call and rule interference when it occurs. I still hate the way that Reggie Jackson got away with throwing his hip in the way of a relay throw to 1st and breaking up a double play in a playoff game with the Royals, but it was the umpire's job to catch it (just as they did with A-Rod when he attempted to knock the ball out of a fielder's glove). It really irked me at the time the way Reggie was smirking afterward for getting away with it, but I don't consider it "dirty" play.

But Pujols came in for a lot of criticism from Cards fans too in the St Louis Sports Forum game thread (http://www.stlouissportsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2090), prompting a moderator to remind posters of SLSF's "kindlier and gentler" policy which prohibits rude language towards other posters. (We can call Tony La Russa or Bud Selig an idiot and Scott Boras a whore, but using language like that towards another poster quickly draws a warning and/or ban.)

After he learned of Phillips' comments, La Russa sent 1st base coach, Dave McKay, to talk to his friend, Reds manager Pete Mackanin, and explain that Pujols was following orders to take it easy on the base paths. Tony then gave Albert a well deserved rest Sunday in the final game of the series, which the Cards won 3-2 to sweep the Reds. I think that Tony undoubtedly did that to defuse the situation and allow cooler heads to prevail before the Cards again play the Reds in Cincinnati on Sept. 11th. I am not a fan of Tony as a manager, but I do give him kudos for taking a prudent course in this situation.

I took a look at the Cincinnati Reds forum (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62089) and found that Reds fans came down on both sides of the issue as well. Some of them were wanting Bronson Arroyo to plunk Pujols in the 1st inning Sunday and suggested that he hit Ankiel instead when they found out Pujols wasn't in the lineup. I respect the following post more.


Brandon should know by now that you aim right between the runner's eyes if you want him to slide. Hopefully that lesson has been reinforced. We'll see. Talk is cheap.

.... I don't think Pujols should get hit but I'm guessing he'll find himself on base one way or another today. Perhaps we'll then see if Brandon is all hat and no cattle. If he's turning the DP and throws at Pujols' head and he hits him, que sera sera. Pujols is probably out of the game and out of the Cards lineup for a consderable amount of time whle they are chasing the Cubs. And if Pujols gets down, the Reds turn a double play. It's a win-win situation.

Below are some photos and more discussion threads at Cardinals forums.

Viva El Birdos -- photos and discussion (http://vivaelbirdos.com/story/2007/9/2/13640/55011#commenttop)

SLSF: Albert vs Phillips baserunning episode - VEB discussion (http://www.stlouissportsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2110)

In my opinion, Phillips had a legitimate beef, but with the 2nd base umpire, not with Pujols. Any time that I've seen a play like that where the umpire possible should have called interference, both the infielder and the manager are immediately all over the umpire. That didn't happen in the game on Saturday, which suggests to me that the interference wasn't flagrant enough to have been called. Pujols was not running hard and Phillips was not in any danger of getting taken out on the play, but Phillips did allow himself to get flustered and he blew a play that might have cost the Reds the game. He should be kicking himself, not Pujols.

[bgfield]

I just watched the video of that (I just found out mlb.com lets you watch replays of any inning of any game, cool stuff) and I think Albert was wrong there. Even the Cardinals announcers were saying he got away with one. And I don't blame the guy at all for not wanting to throw a pitch into the guy. Who cares what you're taught in little league, nobody wants to do that.

[Migrant Redbird]

I just watched the video of that (I just found out mlb.com lets you watch replays of any inning of any game, cool stuff)...

Is that the subscription version, or is it available to everyone? I'm assuming that it's the subscription.

One of the drawbacks of living in this area is that I rarely get an opportunity to watch Cardinals broadcasts. There were 131 games scheduled on Fox Sports Midwest, but they're blocked out here. I was going to sign up for EI, but they faked me out by not blocking a lot of the spring training games and I thought I might be able to get away without buying EI. By the time I figured out I couldn't, I was anticipating that they offer a discount to people who sign up after the season was well underway. If they do, I haven't seen it. Next year, sigh!

As much discussion as there's been of the play (13,400 hits at google, of which the 1st 2-1/2 pages appeared to all be relevant), I'm surprised that I wasn't able to find where someone has posted the video on line. Maybe if I go to you tube and put in fewer search words, it would come up.

Here's a comment by a fan who was at the game. (http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?printertopic=1&t=480569&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=32&sid=c192459916aae3252b299f2d87d323d4)


I was at the game, and what I saw was Pujols not running all out to second, then sidestepping towards Phillips at the last second to mess with his head.

If he had slid, he would've been able to get to the base (the usual standard for interference) and he was never all the way "in the grass" as Phillips was claiming.

I was glad AP didn't slide, it looked like he was nursing the hammy on the play, and the last thing I want to see is a collision/hard play and have AP come up hurt.

Pujols playing on bad wheels is still better than 95% of everyone else in perfect health. A little like Bonds there, not that it's a comparison I like.


... and I think Albert was wrong there. Even the Cardinals announcers were saying he got away with one.

Some of them. A Reds fan listening on XM said they were talking about Phillips' screwing up his footwork, and suggested the Cards announcers felt constrained from saying anything negative about Pujols.


... And I don't blame the guy at all for not wanting to throw a pitch into the guy. Who cares what you're taught in little league, nobody wants to do that.

I'm sorry, but the runner has a right to run in the baseline and the pivot man has a right to throw the ball through him if he doesn't slide. The pivot man accepts the risk of losing the out and getting an error on the throw if he hits the runner, while the runner accepts the risk of getting beaned because he didn't slide.

Looking at the still photos and reading the accounts of the play, I'm inclined to believe it was deliberate interference and the umpire would have been justified to call it. He didn't, and that should be it. There are other ways that Phillips could have communicated a message to Pujols not to try it again without coming off as a childish whiner in the press, and Pujols should not have responded by threatening to knock Phillips into left field. La Russa did the best that he could have done to defuse the situation and I'm hoping that both players got the message loud and clear.

[bgfield]

Is that the subscription version, or is it available to everyone? I'm assuming that it's the subscription.
Nope, anyone can go do it. Just go to mlb.com, at the bottom of the scoreboard you can change the date to whatever day you're looking for, and then it shows recaps of every game. Find the game, click the score of that particular half inning and you can watch it. I'm not sure how far back it goes but I was finally able to watch that bad take-out slide against the Blue Jays by Alex Rodriguiez which happened back in August.

[Migrant Redbird]

Thanks! Viewing the video, there was an obvious change of direction by Pujols just before he reached the base. It was probably intentional, but it did look to me as though he might have been reacting to pain from his hamstring rather than trying to break up the play. I'm not sure which leg it was that he was having a problem with.

[Baltimoron]

Does anyone know of any performance metrics for umpires that are available to the public? Obviously it would be difficult, but you could compare an umpire's strike zone to a computerized ball and strike caller, go through and analyze video and estimate a percentage of wrong calls

A walks/Ks analysis (http://thepastime.net/2007/01/13/graphing-the-umpires/)

Sorta related:


So the easy question to ask is, does it work? Well, if we take all umpire data from 1999-2001, and compare the spread in it (corrected for the expected spread) to the spread (again, corrected) in the 2004-06 data, we can directly answer that question. If QuesTec has forced umpires to call a more uniform strike zone, then the differences between umpires will be smaller than before QuesTec was installed.

And in fact, there has been a greater than 25% reduction in the true spread between umpires since the MLB first installed QuesTec in selected major league parks, which indeed supports the usefulness of the technology. It seems that umpires have curtailed the liberality of their definition of the strike zone for fear of losing their job, and gone with the rulebook definition instead.

Indeed, Eddings and Miller, for example, had the two largest strike zones between 1999 and 2001, calling 2.7% and 2.4% more strikes than expected, respectively (note: all numbers are “true rates,” and thus regressed to the mean). In the past three years, they have still called a higher number of strikes than anyone, but only 1.9% and 1.0% more than the league average, respectively. They may still be a pitcher’s best friend, but the bond isn’t nearly as strong as it used to be.
link (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-outside-corner/)

[Migrant Redbird]

The Questec system requires operator input and isn't quick enough. It's only useful in providing an umpire feedback after the fact, but it doesn't help him in the heat of the game when he's observing the flight of a 98 mph fastball from an angle. What's needed is an automated system that can provide input directly to the umpire quickly enough that fans will not perceive a delay in his call because he's waiting for the ball/strike indicator. If the umpire's electronic assistance tells him whether or not the ball crossed the plate in the strike zone (a red/green LED indicator), he only has to determine if the batter swung, and if the batter made contact on a foul tip.

[Baltimoron]

The Questec system requires operator input and isn't quick enough. It's only useful in providing an umpire feedback after the fact, but it doesn't help him in the heat of the game when he's observing the flight of a 98 mph fastball from an angle. What's needed is an automated system that can provide input directly to the umpire quickly enough that fans will not perceive a delay in his call because he's waiting for the ball/strike indicator. If the umpire's electronic assistance tells him whether or not the ball crossed the plate in the strike zone (a red/green LED indicator), he only has to determine if the batter swung, and if the batter made contact on a foul tip.

What are you talking about? I'm pretty sure no one has suggested anything otherwise.

[Migrant Redbird]

What are you talking about? I'm pretty sure no one has suggested anything otherwise.

I proposed an IRAD (Independent Research and Development) system to my employer about 12 years ago which would have incorporated defense technology software into an electronic assistance system for umpires. The organization where I work was developing software to recognize military targets from a video image. (I wasn't working on that project myself, so I don't know whether it was successful or not.) The developers I talked to thought that recognizing a baseball on a video image would be trivial compared to that of recognizing a military aircraft traveling at higher speeds and varying aspects against a cluttered background. After all, regardless of the aspect from which you view a baseball, it's always a 2.75 inch white sphere and it would always be a fixed distance from the fixed camera. The programmers were eager to take on the challenge.

My proposed system would have used 3 video cameras: one directly over the plate on a cantilevered pole like those used for traffic signals, high enough that it would rarely if ever interfere with pop ups; a second one along the right field railing even with home plate (might have to relocate the batting circle) to be used for right handed hitters; and a third one on the left field side for the left handed hitters. Care would need to be taken so that players would not obstruct the cameras' views and so that fans couldn't.

You've all seen the overhead camera angles which demonstrated clearly how umpires were calling some pitches strikes that were 4-6 inches or more outside. The overhead video feed would be used to determine whether the pitch crossed over the plate or not. The sideline camera would be used to determine the height of the ball as it crossed the front and the back of the plate.

The pitch location would be compared to a standard strike zone established for that player during spring training. If the player altered his strike zone during the season, he might be allowed to petition to have it adjusted in the system data base, but I'd generally be adverse to that. Players who deliberately used an exaggerated crouch during spring training to shrink their strike zones might need to be monitored during the season to ensure they were actually maintaining the strike zones they established. For players who hadn't been calibrated into the system, an umpire could watch them during batting practice swinging next to a calibrated yardstick (OK -- a 2 yard stick) and the system operator could manually enter the data into the system. However, I believe the system would be adopted in the minor leagues as well, so a player's strike zone data would already be well established and available.

Even 12 years ago, we believed that a notebook computer would have had sufficient processing power to identify the pitch location in near real time and transmit the information to an LED indicator mounted on the umpire's mask. As I said above, the umpire would get a green or red indicator which would provide him positive correlation whether the pitch was in the strike zone or not, but it would be up to the umpire to determine if the batter checked his swing or tipped the ball, just as he does not. The system would be transparent to the fans, except that suddenly all the umpires would appear to have perfect strike zones and the disputes over bad calls would disappear from the game.

I even went so far as to query our legal office for a patent search. I still have the folder filed away with some of the extremely complicated radar systems which had already been filed with the U.S. patent office. Reviewing the patent descriptions, I don't believe that they were practical. My proposal was -- provided that the programmers were correct when they told me the object recognition would be easy compared to the military targets they were trying to identify.

My boss vetoed the idea, for 3 reasons:

(1) He believed that the traditionalists in baseball would never accept the system.

(2) I had worked up a business case for what I believed amateur baseball organizations would pay for the system, based upon the ability to get by with one fewer umpire at games. I even researched what umpires were paid for local high school games. My boss didn't believe that my business case was credible, and it probably did need quite a bit of refining, especially in the area of projected development costs.

(3) Our business was defense research and development, and he didn't feel that a baseball system fell within our charter.

I've discussed the system several times in baseball forums on line over the years, including in this forum a time or two, but mostly in my Cardinals forum. I still think that it's feasible and would probably be superior to Questec, but I don't have the programming expertise or time to write the software. If I did, I would have set up the cameras and filmed some video of pitches crossing the plate and attempt to develop it myself, just to verify (or disprove) the feasibility.

The greatest benefit which I saw to the system was for use in youth leagues, so that the umpire could get out from behind the catcher and call the balls and strikes from behind the pitcher, and where he would be more ideally situated to call plays at any base. In most situations, the number of umpires per game could be reduced by one, unless there was only one umpire to begin with. It would be a great training aid for teaching kids their strike zones, because they would always get a consistent call from a properly functioning system, rather than having to deal with the vagaries of calls by a human umpire. Since the kids would learn their strike zones better, they would take fewer strikes and swing at fewer balls. (OK, maybe I'm not being realistic about that, especially with the younger ones.) Pitchers with excellent control would be rewarded for it, instead of being penalized by incompetent umpires.

For amateur players, I envisioned a yardstick which the umpire could stand up next to the ballplayer and measure what his strike zone would be, then choose it from a set of predefined strike zones in the data base. That wouldn't be completely accurate because of the variations in how batters crouch in their stances, but it would be more fair than the capricious strike zones batters have to deal with now.

[scOtt]

More bad umpire fodder here. (http://sports.excite.com/news/09052007/v8563.html)

Chipper will probably get a fine but he doesn't sound like he cares too much. :p

[longflyball]

Take it to em, Chipper. The fact that he said what he said after a loss makes it look like he's coming up with excuses, but it's the truth nonetheless.

[davearm]

Thanks! Viewing the video, there was an obvious change of direction by Pujols just before he reached the base. It was probably intentional, but it did look to me as though he might have been reacting to pain from his hamstring rather than trying to break up the play. I'm not sure which leg it was that he was having a problem with.
Well that's easily the most preposterous and homerific thing I'll read all day today.

It's a prohibitive favorite for the weekly honor, too.

For a guy so talented, Pujols sure does seem to get himself mixed up in a lot of bushleague stuff.

[RShack]

I proposed an IRAD (Independent Research and Development) system to my employer about 12 years ago... [stuff deleted]... My proposed system would have used 3 video cameras...
3 should do it...


The pitch location would be compared to a standard strike zone established for that player during spring training. If the player altered his strike zone during the season, he might be allowed to petition to have it adjusted in the system data base, but I'd generally be adverse to that. This is the very, very bad part. You are changing the game to suit your techno-system. IMO, that's v. bad. If it is to be done, it needs to be able to handle things dynamically. Changing baseball to fit some computerized scheme is my idea of a nightmare.

Even if a perfect system existed, removing the whole "kill the ump" aspect of baseball is a very dubious proposition. I think it's a horrible idea, but I realize others have priorities than are different than mine. I favor improved umpire supervision, both re: their calls and especially re: the childish confrontational manner that some umps have. But I do NOT want robot-umps.

[DrungoHazewood]

3 should do it...

This is the very, very bad part. You are changing the game to suit your techno-system. IMO, that's v. bad. If it is to be done, it needs to be able to handle things dynamically. Changing baseball to fit some computerized scheme is my idea of a nightmare.

Even if a perfect system existed, removing the whole "kill the ump" aspect of baseball is a very dubious proposition. I think it's a horrible idea, but I realize others have priorities than are different than mine. I favor improved umpire supervision, both re: their calls and especially re: the childish confrontational manner that some umps have. But I do NOT want robot-umps.

I'm sure a lot of people thought the industrial revolution was a bad idea, and instant worldwide communication was a nightmare, too.

I can easily see a world, in 30 or 40 years, where kids will be astonished that there used to be a time where we let flawed, biased people judge sporting events despite incontrovertible evidence that they were wrong 5%, 10%, 15% of the time. They'll ask "didn't you care that many games were decided by umpire's errors rather than skill of the players?" We'll be left trying to explain how that was tradition, and how it was cool to watch people scream their bloody head off when they were called out on a pitch eight inches off the plate. And the kids will think that's quaint, just like buggy whips and Atari 2600s.

[Migrant Redbird]

This is the very, very bad part. You are changing the game to suit your techno-system. IMO, that's v. bad. If it is to be done, it needs to be able to handle things dynamically. Changing baseball to fit some computerized scheme is my idea of a nightmare.

I see that you and the boss who killed my proposal because he felt that baseball is too bound up with tradition are two of a kind. :)

Umpires don't do a very precise job of establishing the players' vertical strike zones anyhow, so why not define them extremely precisely for each player and store them in the data base so that it's one less thing for the umpire to be concerned about. That way, the umpire can focus on whether the batter checks his swing or foul tips the pitch or gets interfered with by the catcher. From the perspective of the fan, the main difference will be that they won't be able to moan anymore about Tom Glavine getting strikes called that are a foot off the plate and they won't see any more managers getting kicked out of games for arguing strikes and balls.

We could allow a player to establish his batting stance/strike zone but, the more I think about it, I believe that strike zones should be established based upon the position of his knees and arm pits while standing up straight. There would be some variations between stances and pitchers would have to understand that a batter in an exaggerated crouch would have a larger strike zone than he does currently, but it would make little if any difference for the batting stances of most hitters and I doubt if most fans would even be aware of the change except for the historians. Hitters would be free to tinker with their batting stances to any degree they chose, with the knowledge that it wouldn't affect their strike zone one iota except to the extent that it makes it more difficult for the pitcher to establish the boundary of the strike zone available for him to use.


Even if a perfect system existed, removing the whole "kill the ump" aspect of baseball is a very dubious proposition.

I understand that some people derive great entertainment value from controversy and the threat of violence, but it doesn't really add anything to the game to me. I don't watch auto races for the spectacular crashes and I'm trying to curb the pleasure that I get from watching violent tackles in football, because I recognize the same motivations in myself, but I've never gotten much enjoyment from watching a manager or a player make a donkey out of himself protesting an atrocious call by an umpire. If that's your thing, you might be able to substitute by watching more "professional" wrestling.


I favor improved umpire supervision, both re: their calls...

It's a losing proposition; the human eye is only capable of so much, and the challenge of determining the precise flight of a 98 mph baseball from an oblique angle, distracted by movements of the catcher and the batter, only gets more and more challenging as umpires age and their eyesight deteriorates. Why try to train umpires into doing something for which their eyes and visual processing capabilities are ill equipped when it would be so technologically trivial to provide them with a simple red/green LED indicator, TRANSPARENT TO THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE FAN, which would


... and especially re: the childish confrontational manner that some umps have. But I do NOT want robot-umps.

Well, we don't know what MLB is doing about "childish, confrontational manner(s)" (such as John Hirschbeck with Robbie Alomar) because any disciplinary action short of a suspension or dismissal is completely confidential. I'm assuming that MLB doesn't want managers/players (are you listening, Chipper) to believe that they can have any influence on the discipline meted out to individual umpires.

It wouldn't be "robo-ump" from the fan perspective, unless you regard error-free umpires as being "robots". Besides, they still wouldn't be "error-free". They will continue to screw up check swings, foul tips, catcher interference, and safe/out calls on the base paths. That's more than enough umpire influence on the outcome of the game to suit me. I still remember Denkinger in 1985. I want baseball games to be decided based upon the talents and efforts expended by the players, not by umpire idiosyncrasies. And I want pitchers to have to stand up there and face the opposing batter with a bat in their hands.


I can easily see a world, in 30 or 40 years, where kids will be astonished that there used to be a time where we let flawed, biased people judge sporting events despite incontrovertible evidence that they were wrong 5%, 10%, 15% of the time. They'll ask "didn't you care that many games were decided by umpire's errors rather than skill of the players?" We'll be left trying to explain how that was tradition, and how it was cool to watch people scream their blood head off when they were called out on a pitch eight inches off the plate. And the kids will think that's quaint, just like buggy whips and Atari 2600s.

Exactly! You expressed it much more clearly and succinctly than I could. Too bad you can't see so clearly when it comes to the DH issue! :)

[Migrant Redbird]

Well that's easily the most preposterous and homerific thing I'll read all day today.

It's a prohibitive favorite for the weekly honor, too.

For a guy so talented, Pujols sure does seem to get himself mixed up in a lot of bushleague stuff.

Ah, you must be sore about the "Zamnobraino" thread then.

Pujols is probably no angel, but since I don't know him personally, it's difficult for me to make an absolute judgment. There's no question that he can sometimes be brusque, especially with obnoxious reporters, but he seems to have more patience with them and the oppressive attention from fans than I believe I could manage.

What I see is the player who married a young single mother and adopted her child with Downs Syndrome; who established a foundation to benefit children afflicted with that problem; who professes to be a "born again Christian" thanks to the influence of his wife; who credits his wife, Deidre with noticing a flaw in his swing once that had eluded both him and the Cardinals batting coach; who spends copious amounts of time with sick children in St. Louis hospitals and discourages any publicity about it; who paid to fly a medical team to the Dominican Republic last winter (and possible before) to treat the problems of indigent children who otherwise could never afford such care; who took the unusual step of asking fans to refrain from booing Juan Encarnacion when he got off to a horrendous beginning in the 2006 season; who sat in the hospital until 3 AM trying to provide some comfort to that same player whose baseball career is now ended; who led the team with 16 stolen bases in 2005 despite "less than average foot speed" (and at least 1 of his 2 caught stealing was a busted hit and run play); who refuses to talk with reporters before the game because it interferes with the total concentration of his pregame preparation; who volunteered to switch from 3rd base to left field in 2002 because his friend, Placido Polanco was uncomfortable with La Russa's plan to put him into the outfield.

Yes, I know that Pujols can be a little testy at times and he dodges fans seeking autographs more than Cal Ripken did, but I can assure you that most St. Louis fans believe he's just as much of a genuine article as Cal was. And Cal had his detractors among O's fans, as I've often observed here. No one is perfect, but Cal and Albert come about as close to it as I've seen among any modern ballplayers -- given my lack of opportunity to observe them up close and personal.

But if regarding Pujols as an SOB helps you to rationalize away his lifting the Cards over those lovable losers you are stuck with, I doubt if there's much that I could say that would change your mind.

By the way, I was one of those alibiing for Marquis when the Cubs picked him up. Right now, that looks like one of the wiser moves by the Cubs last winter. We'll see if Jason has outgrown his maturity problems which apparently destroyed his relationships with Dave Duncan and Leo Mazzone; I'm betting that he finally has, but we'll see.

[O's are Legends]

Wow, anybody else watching the Cubs/ Padres game? (August 18, 2009) CB Bucknor called Fukudome out when his entire body had already crossed 1st base. These umps need to be held accountable; if this was any other profession you would be fired for such inconsistency/ poor performances week after week - or at least giving some training to help improve your performance. Bucknor is terrible and MLB should be ashamed, me and my brother kept using the hddvr and couldn’t believe how he could blow that call.

On a side note, I googled CB Buckner awful umpire and this came up on the first page; just realized this was from 07 – this man still has a job as a MLB umpire.

[blueberryale77]

Wow, anybody else watching the Cubs/ Padres game? (August 18, 2009) CB Bucknor called Fukudome out when his entire body had already crossed 1st base. These umps need to be held accountable; if this was any other profession you would be fired for such inconsistency/ poor performances week after week - or at least giving some training to help improve your performance. Bucknor is terrible and MLB should be ashamed, me and my brother kept using the hddvr and couldn’t believe how he could blow that call.

On a side note, I googled CB Buckner awful umpire and this came up on the first page; just realized this was from 07 – this man still has a job as a MLB umpire.

I just clicked on this thinking it sounded like an interesting thread and was shocked to see that I actually started it two years ago. I guess you never can live down what you post on the internet!

[byrdz]

Isn't Laz Diaz the one who kicked the arse of some idiot White Sox fan who tried to attack him on the field? He gets mad props for that, at least.

Yeah, Diaz is an ex-Marine, the fan got worked.

<img src=http://reds.enquirer.com/2003/04/16/attack2_zoom.jpg>

[byrdz]

I'm sure a lot of people thought the industrial revolution was a bad idea, and instant worldwide communication was a nightmare, too.

I can easily see a world, in 30 or 40 years, where kids will be astonished that there used to be a time where we let flawed, biased people judge sporting events despite incontrovertible evidence that they were wrong 5%, 10%, 15% of the time. They'll ask "didn't you care that many games were decided by umpire's errors rather than skill of the players?" We'll be left trying to explain how that was tradition, and how it was cool to watch people scream their bloody head off when they were called out on a pitch eight inches off the plate. And the kids will think that's quaint, just like buggy whips and Atari 2600s.

I agree that more technology should be used in the right way, but as I'm sure you're aware, it is far from perfect and never will be. Mostly because it requires the imrepfetc person to program them. That's not even getting into the possibilities of hackers.

So how then do you handle a computer system failing to make the right call? You will always need human intervention when it comes to computer systems so that element will and should always be there.

[DrungoHazewood]

I agree that more technology should be used in the right way, but as I'm sure you're aware, it is far from perfect and never will be. Mostly because it requires the imrepfetc person to program them. That's not even getting into the possibilities of hackers.

So how then do you handle a computer system failing to make the right call? You will always need human intervention when it comes to computer systems so that element will and should always be there.

It's pretty simple. You give the home plate ump a little buzzer he holds in his palm. If the Questec/Pitchfx system says it's a strike it immediately buzzes. The ump is the only one who knows in real time what it did - it's his judgment to use the automated call or weed out any obvious errors. All the results will be logged, and it'll be easy to tell which umps only use their override for pitches three feet off the plate that were clearly system errors, and who's freelancing and telling the system he "knows" that borderline pitch was called wrong.