Unbelievable... 0% Graduation rate '97-'00

[Jagwar]

UM men's basketball's graduation rate worst in nation (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/basketball/mens/bal-gradrates1003,0,6862081.story)

I understand that some of these guys ended up as pro athletes, but a zero percent graduation rate is a disgrace.

[BustaJ2632]

These rates are giving the players only a certain # of years after graduation, right? Because I find it hard to believe that college assistant coaches like Terrell Stokes and Keith Booth didn't get their degree. In fact I know Keith got his. Not to completely excuse this stat, but it isn't 0% if you look at how many of those guys currently have their degree.

[BustaJ2632]

Matt Hahn is also an assistant coach now I believe. I think it was one of those cupcake teams we played at the beginning of last season in the CVC tournament, but I could be getting that mixed up. I'm sure he's coaching somewhere though.

[JohnD]

Hahn was working with Lonergan at Vermont.

I thought he, Mardesich, and Morris graduated? Hell, Kovarik left coaching to go to law school so he definitely graduated.

[glenn__davis]

Yeah, I'm not sure how they determine those rates. I mean, didn't Mardesich and Ekezie come here partly because of the academic program?

I remember cbird saying that all five seniors from the Blake/Nicholas class graduated, but that was obviously after 2000. I do remember Johnny Holiday always emphasizing that Tahj Holden would be the first to graduate in 4 years for some time.

So while there's always improvement to be made academically, I don't think the rates put out by the NCAA are the best gauge.

[Jagwar]

I'm wondering if it is only student-athletes who enrolled at Maryland from 1997 to 2000. Wouldnt that mean that Booth, Stokes and Ekezie would also be excluded from the survey?

[square634]

This is why I think it is often euphemistic to call these guys student-athletes. Often times, in the major sports (football/basketball) they are only there to play sports. Actually the fact that none graduated may be more of a statement that Maryland isn't cheating by grade inflation or using B.S. majors like "general studies" or "sports management and communications." For example, I find it hard to believe that some of Duke's players could do well in a rigorous major, considering the (undeserved! ;)) reputation that it has. Of course some is is very different from zero. I know for a fact that Michigan pulls stuff like that with their majors.

NCAA says that athletes are paid by getting a free education, but really that doesn't happen all that often (although you can argue, and there is definitely some truth to it, that this is the players' fault. They do have ridiculous time commitments for the sports though). Meanwhile, the colleges make a fortune out of TV deals, etc. I think the players, who are all 18 and over and are thus legal adults, should somehow get a piece of that pie (or at least be able to get their names in EA's video games!). I guess I've sort of wandered away from the thread topic, so I'll stop now.

[Sports Guy]

Other than maybe following their NBA careers, do any of you care what happens to these guys once they leave MD?

[TGO]

I'm wondering if it is only student-athletes who enrolled at Maryland from 1997 to 2000. Wouldnt that mean that Booth, Stokes and Ekezie would also be excluded from the survey?

It says that in the first paragraph of the article. So we aren't talking about the right guys.

[JohnD]

Other than maybe following their NBA careers, do any of you care what happens to these guys once they leave MD?

Well, yeah. Anyone you shared a school with is someone you hope will be successful. You want positive reflections on your school.

[geschinger]

Other than maybe following their NBA careers, do any of you care what happens to these guys once they leave MD?

I would think whether it's a college program or a pro team or whatever you'd like to think that the team that one roots for does things the right way. A 0% graduation rate is by any definition failing to do things the right way.

[beaner]

Well, yeah. Anyone you shared a school with is someone you hope will be successful. You want positive reflections on your school.

I would agree that if you went to a school, then it would matter to you. Otherwise, not so much.

[Sports Guy]

What do you guys care about...That Dixon and Blake won a NC and went to another final 4 or that they didn't graduate?

In other words, who cares....You can't make these kids make the right decisions.

[JohnD]

Two things. Why can't you root for success on the court and in the classroom? Why is it an either/or? And I'd dare say that, for instance, Blake and Dixon made the right decisions. Those guys have insane money now and are set for life. In this case, they've taken care of their families and allowed themselves to live a comfortable, stable life. That's the American dream, right? Besides being flawed, this graduation rate would be a lot more worrisome if you were talking about a MEAC or Sunbelt or Trans-Atlantic Conference or whatever type of school, where so few players make it to the pro level.

[Ruzious]

Maryland noted that 10 of the 10 freshmen and transfer basketball players measurable by the GSR scores left school to pursue professional careers.
As a Maryland alum, I can tell you that 10 out of 10 is pretty close to 100%.

The major purpose of going to college for almost everyone who goes to college is to prepare for a career. Maryland succeeded in giving those students an education.

[AgentOrange]

What do you guys care about...That Dixon and Blake won a NC and went to another final 4 or that they didn't graduate?

In other words, who cares....You can't make these kids make the right decisions.

Well for me, it is a biased opinion because I know Juan. I know he has plans to graduate, he is only a semester away I believe.

He also gives a ton of Money to the school and to Calvert Hall. I don't mind the fact that he didn't graduate because I know it is in his plans. He set up a scholarship fund in his brothers name and I believe it is for people who are in the law enforcement type majors at MD since his bro is a city cop I believe.

It is disappointing that they didn't receive the diploma, but they are not far away to be sure.

If anything, Juan is a great ambassador for MD and for Calvert Hall, so I don't really mind the fact he didn't graduate right now.

[Sports Guy]

Two things. Why can't you root for success on the court and in the classroom? Why is it an either/or? And I'd dare say that, for instance, Blake and Dixon made the right decisions. Those guys have insane money now and are set for life. In this case, they've taken care of their families and allowed themselves to live a comfortable, stable life. That's the American dream, right? Besides being flawed, this graduation rate would be a lot more worrisome if you were talking about a MEAC or Sunbelt or Trans-Atlantic Conference or whatever type of school, where so few players make it to the pro level.
Its not either/or John but at the end of the day, these guys graduating or not doesn't impact you.

Whether these guys go out and end up in the NBA or working at T Rowe Price, it has no impact for you.

Now, when they play for MD, their impact is felt by you because you are a fan of the team, go to the game and invest time into watching them.

I guess at the end of the day, in a roundabout way i am trying to defend Gary Williams here.

People are going to point the finger at him....I don't think that is fair.

[geschinger]

Its not either/or John but at the end of the day, these guys graduating or not doesn't impact you.

Whether these guys go out and end up in the NBA or working at T Rowe Price, it has no impact for you.

Now, when they play for MD, their impact is felt by you because you are a fan of the team, go to the game and invest time into watching them.

I guess at the end of the day, in a roundabout way i am trying to defend Gary Williams here.

People are going to point the finger at him....I don't think that is fair.

Unless Gary Williams has a different job description than other college coaches his job is to graduate players and win. The coach isn't soley responsible but he is a huge factor and when it comes to the program the buck stops there. That said, they seem to have improved a lot recently so in the grand scheme of things what happened in the past is not a huge deal.

[Mackus]

Its not either/or John but at the end of the day, these guys graduating or not doesn't impact you.

Whether these guys go out and end up in the NBA or working at T Rowe Price, it has no impact for you.

Now, when they play for MD, their impact is felt by you because you are a fan of the team, go to the game and invest time into watching them.

I guess at the end of the day, in a roundabout way i am trying to defend Gary Williams here.

People are going to point the finger at him....I don't think that is fair.
I agree that preparing for a career is the true goal of college. Some people need a degree to do that, some people don't. Most basketball players don't. If anyone on this list has a job in basketball, then I wouldn't be too concerned with them not graduating.

To address your other point, I definitely do care what happens to these guys after they are gone. These are guys I grew up rooting for and idolizing (some of them). It breaks my heart when Lonny Baxter gets multiple gun violations and ends up in a DC prison after being my favorite player for 4 years and seeming like an all-around teddy bear of a guy. I loved seeing Sarunas come to the NBA after dominating the Europe leagues. I think its cool as hell seeing Matt Hahn coaching. I don't think its only because I want guys from my school to do well, but its because I liked these guys when they were here, and just want to see them do well in general.

Its like seeing a former Oriole or Raven I liked do well with their new team. I'll root against them when they're playing against the team I cheer for, but other than that, I'd like to see them succeed.

[Sports Guy]

Unless Gary Williams has a different job description than other college coaches his job is to graduate players and win. The coach isn't soley responsible but he is a huge factor and when it comes to the program the buck stops there. That said, they seem to have improved a lot recently so in the grand scheme of things what happened in the past is not a huge deal.

Come on....This is like saying student athletes go to school for a degree and the sport second...It just isn't reality.

If Gary graduated 100% of his kids but won 12 games every year, how long do you think he would have his job?

[geschinger]

Come on....This is like saying student athletes go to school for a degree and the sport second...It just isn't reality.


How about having student athletes go the school for the sport first and a degree second instead of going to the school for the sport and not for a degree?



If Gary graduated 100% of his kids but won 12 games every year, how long do you think he would have his job?

You do know that it is possible to win *and* graduate players, don't you?

Like I said, things seem to have gotten better so it's not a huge deal that they had a breakdown several years ago. But if Gary had continued to graduate 0% of his players that too would have eventually ended up costing him his job.

[Sports Guy]

How about having student athletes go the school for the sport first and a degree second instead of going to the school for the sport and not for a degree?
I agree this is the way it should be but the reality is that is not the way it is in a lot of places.


You do know that it is possible to win *and* graduate players, don't you?
Sure...Ask Bobby Knight this. But i also know that these guys get their heads filled with misinformation and only want to hear the good stuff.

Like I said, things seem to have gotten better so it's not a huge deal that they had a breakdown several years ago. But if Gary had continued to graduate 0% of his players that too would have eventually ended up costing him his job.Well, MD has had bad graduation rates since Gary got there(at least according to the recent studies) and he is still there...Put it this way, losing a bunch of games will cost him his job much quicker than bad graduation rates.

He is at that school to win games first and foremost.

[Dr. FLK]

Its not either/or John but at the end of the day, these guys graduating or not doesn't impact you.

Whether these guys go out and end up in the NBA or working at T Rowe Price, it has no impact for you.

Now, when they play for MD, their impact is felt by you because you are a fan of the team, go to the game and invest time into watching them.

I guess at the end of the day, in a roundabout way i am trying to defend Gary Williams here.

People are going to point the finger at him....I don't think that is fair.

It doesn't impact me one bit. BUT, it impacts him. He's a college coach, not a pro coach. He is responsible for coaching a basketball team and representing the university. And, there is an implied responsibility for academics in NCAA athletic programs. And, right now, his looks like a joke. How is the fact that it "doesn't impact me" defending him at all? Those kids aren't my responsibility...

[geschinger]

I agree this is the way it should be but the reality is that is not the way it is in a lot of places.


In those places where it is not that way attempts should be made to change things rather than just writing it off as no big deal.



Sure...Ask Bobby Knight this. But i also know that these guys get their heads filled with misinformation and only want to hear the good stuff.
Well, MD has had bad graduation rates since Gary got there(at least according to the recent studies) and he is still there...Put it this way, losing a bunch of games will cost him his job much quicker than bad graduation rates.

He is at that school to win games first and foremost.

Absolutely, winning is a requirement and the most important thing for job security. While he may have a bad overall graduation rate - even if it's in the 30% range he'll be fine as long as he wins. If they hadn't improved and the next study was going to have them at 0% my guess is that he'd have some problems even if they continued to win.

[Sports Guy]

It doesn't impact me one bit. BUT, it impacts him. He's a college coach, not a pro coach. He is responsible for coaching a basketball team and representing the university. And, there is an implied responsibility for academics in NCAA athletic programs. And, right now, his looks like a joke. How is the fact that it "doesn't impact me" defending him at all? Those kids aren't my responsibility...

My point with that is why do you care at all about this?

Someone like Mackus or John, i can understand because it makes THEIR school look bad.

As Beaner said, if you went there, i get that.

I know as a Duke fan, i could care less if they graduate or not. I want them to go to Duke, play well, win games and hopefully win titles.

Once they leave Duke, unless they go into the NBA, i don't follow them. I don't pay attention to their portfolios or if they are digging ditches....I mean sure, i would like to see them do well in life but i would wish that on most human beings.

[square634]

How about having student athletes go the school for the sport first and a degree second instead of going to the school for the sport and not for a degree?



You do know that it is possible to win *and* graduate players, don't you?

Like I said, things seem to have gotten better so it's not a huge deal that they had a breakdown several years ago. But if Gary had continued to graduate 0% of his players that too would have eventually ended up costing him his job.

But what value are the athletes actually getting by graduating? If they graduate through grade inflation, BS majors, and/or "advisors" doing homework for them, does that really make them more qualified? It's nice to say they are student/athletes, but for the most part that just isn't the case. They need to have something like an 820 on their SATs combined for the reading and math section. Considering the minimum score is 400, that is just abominably low, and some of these guys struggle to get that and have to take it 10 times, even with private tutoring. And they are going to institutions such as Duke where people get rejected even with 1500+ SATs. The same thing happens at Ivy League schools; everyone knows that if you take classes with lots of athletes, there is a massive curve. For the most part, these kids just aren't on the same level academically, just like the general student population is not on their level athletically.

[BaltimoreTerp]

It doesn't impact me one bit. BUT, it impacts him. He's a college coach, not a pro coach. He is responsible for coaching a basketball team and representing the university. And, there is an implied responsibility for academics in NCAA athletic programs. And, right now, his looks like a joke. How is the fact that it "doesn't impact me" defending him at all? Those kids aren't my responsibility...

The problem is the use of flawed statistics over the wrong period of time. Kind of like measuring Miguel Tejada's overall defensive abilities based on fielding percentage in August 2007.

Apparently some of the players actually did graduate, and most of the players involved are playing pro ball somewhere. Judging Williams based on those guys is like judging Harvard a failure because Bill Gates dropped out of school.

[Sports Guy]

Correct BTerp...It is flawed and that is the other problem with it.

[Dr. FLK]

The problem is the use of flawed statistics over the wrong period of time. Kind of like measuring Miguel Tejada's overall defensive abilities based on fielding percentage in August 2007.

Apparently some of the players actually did graduate, and most of the players involved are playing pro ball somewhere. Judging Williams based on those guys is like judging Harvard a failure because Bill Gates dropped out of school.

Sure it's flawed. But, 0% is still bad. Miguel's fielding percentage in August wasn't 0.000. No other teams had 0%, did they? And, I'd be willing to wager that there are quite a few other schools with more players in the NBA and overseas.

[Dr. FLK]

My point with that is why do you care at all about this?

Someone like Mackus or John, i can understand because it makes THEIR school look bad.

As Beaner said, if you went there, i get that.

I know as a Duke fan, i could care less if they graduate or not. I want them to go to Duke, play well, win games and hopefully win titles.

Once they leave Duke, unless they go into the NBA, i don't follow them. I don't pay attention to their portfolios or if they are digging ditches....I mean sure, i would like to see them do well in life but i would wish that on most human beings.

I went there as well.

[Bosibus]

For all colleges:

http://collegefootball.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1144&CID=722328

[geschinger]

The problem is the use of flawed statistics over the wrong period of time. Kind of like measuring Miguel Tejada's overall defensive abilities based on fielding percentage in August 2007.

Apparently some of the players actually did graduate, and most of the players involved are playing pro ball somewhere. Judging Williams based on those guys is like judging Harvard a failure because Bill Gates dropped out of school.

Good analogy for the old system but it's been addressed. While it is still far from perfect they did make changes to the system - teams are no longer penalized for players who transfer or leave early for the NBA. The Bill Gates equivalent - a Maryland player dropping out/leaving school early to go pro does not count against them.

[Eight]

Come on....This is like saying student athletes go to school for a degree and the sport second...It just isn't reality.

If Gary graduated 100% of his kids but won 12 games every year, how long do you think he would have his job?

It's a nice concept to pay lip service to in order to make it look like you're doing things the "right way" but as long as there are no more Chris McCray situations, no one really cares.

And aside from that, the team graduated 3 of its 5 scholarship seniors last season and will probably graduate 2 of 3 over the next two seasons. It's silly to think this is a big deal when these guys won a national title and have been out of the program for years.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Good analogy for the old system but it's been addressed. While it is still far from perfect they did make changes to the system - teams are no longer penalized for players who transfer or leave early for the NBA. The Bill Gates equivalent - a Maryland player dropping out/leaving school early to go pro does not count against them.

Yeah it does, because then it wouldn't be taking Dixon, Blake, etc. into account.

They COULD have stayed in college to get their degrees; they chose to leave school before that. Doesn't matter whether they had any "eligibility" left, which is what the NCAA is measuring.

[BaltimoreTerp]

It's a nice concept to pay lip service to in order to make it look like you're doing things the "right way" but as long as there are no more Chris McCray situations, no one really cares.

And aside from that, the team graduated 3 of its 5 scholarship seniors last season and will probably graduate 2 of 3 over the next two seasons. It's silly to think this is a big deal when these guys won a national title and have been out of the program for years.

Personally, knowing all that is done for the student-athletes to keep them above "C" level, as well as the effort I had to put in to flunk out myself, I have no sympathy for Chris McCray, Jared Gaither, etc. They are either ignoramuses on a gigantic scale or they just didn't listen to anyone.

[AgentOrange]

Heather Dinich does a pretty good job getting the pulse of the Terps for viewers. She is the Roch equivalent for the Terps. Here is her blog about it, I don't get too upset after reading this. I know we aren't supposed to post the whole thing, but I think it all applies:


Look, it's not every day you'll find me defending Gary Williams - even he was hard to convince last night that I agree with him, but I do.

As bad as a zero percent graduation success rate looks, would you trade your 2002 national championship for a higher one?

Didn't think so.

Look, we're talking about the top eight players in the rotation that beat Indiana - guys who went on to successful, lucrative, professional careers. Terence Morris, who currently plays in Israel, and Jamar Smith, who was on Maryland's ACC championship team, were also among the 10 players who did not graduate in the 1997-2000 cohort.

It's no wonder no other school in the nation didn't have a zero percent graduation rate. No other school in the nation won the national title in 2002 and had 10 guys during that particular time frame turn pro.

"Basketball players have a reverse economic career," Gary said last night. "They have an opportunity to make more money from 22 to 35 than most people make their money from 50-60. Basketball is completely different."

Gary ran through a bunch of those players and what they've accomplished other than a degree:

Lonny Baxter (the whole "gun thing" aside) - made a minimum of $400K

Byron Mouton - same thing, and two courses away from graduating.

Juan Dixon - Making $3 million with Toronto (this is all according to Gary).

Steve Blake - $5 million.

Drew Nicholas - $800K.

Chris Wilcox - $6.2 million for third consecutive year.

Ryan Randle - playing overseas this year.

"What are you trying to say?" Gary asked me yesterday. "Are you trying to say these people haven't been successful?"

Not even close (except for that whole "gun thing").

Even D.J. Strawberry, who didn't graduate but signed a two-year deal with Phoenix, is making the NBA's minimum, which is somewhere around $400k. How much did your college degree make you?

Maryland, as a university, needs to get itself into this century and offer online courses, so that guys like D.J. can slowly plug away at whatever credits they had left from whatever NBA city they're in, and get this done within the NCAA's six-year window. Tahj Holden graduated, but it took him longer than six years, so he doesn't "count."

Maryland's graduation rate is bound to improve. Four of the six seniors last year graduated. Both of this year's seniors are on track to graduate in four years. The data released yesterday is a decade old.

The only question remaining is this: Given that all 10 of those players counting against Maryland chose to play professionally, what more was Maryland coach Gary Williams supposed to do?


http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/maryland_terps/blog/

[Todd-O]

I'm going to have to side with Gary in this instance. He's right. First off, everyone knows that the vast majority of D1 scholarship hoops players are there for a shot at the NBA... and if not the NBA, then one of the foreign leagues.

If I were a decent D1 player that had a shot to make it to the pros... I'd definitely go for it. You can always go back to college. You can't, however, always maintain the physical abilities you possess in your 20's. Hence, these kids make a run for lots of money first.

It's not like non-student athletes have a 100% graduation rate. In fact, my wife is an alum of one of a well known business school and I was reading a story in their alum magazine about two undergraduate students who have won prize money to pursue a revolutionary business idea. They are so consumed by their business plan, that they are considering dropping out of school to devote 100% of their energy and time to it. The magazine celebrated this fact... not bashed it. This is no different than a kid leaving school or neglecting school to try and make the pros.

The Chris McCrays of the world may harvest pity from many of us... but these kids are not only given amazing opportunities, but in most cases their universities provide them with the tools to succeed if they are willing to put forth the effort. Of course there are instances where schools over look academic issues simply to keep a kid in a sports program. There are players who have gone through college without possessing literacy. But in most cases the school has put forth a decent effort to give student athletes the ability to achieve a degree.

But, my goodness, Maryland is one school that takes academics fairly seriously... especially when they consider recruits for their major sports programs.

Someone mentioned Byron Mouton. I loved watching him play. He seemed like a good kid. That article in the Post about him last year was hard to read. His post-college experience is the ugly side of the whole business. Not only does he not have a degree... but he's playing games in high school gyms. It sucks and I'm sure everyone here wishes him the best of luck, but he was well aware of the stakes.

[Gurgi]

I think of these kids as entertainment. Most of them would go into a minor league NBA if they had such a thing. Lots of them really arent that interested in the college life.

I really dont see what the big deal is. They force these kids to go to college to get to the NBA. Its a messed up system.

[Mackus]

Personally, knowing all that is done for the student-athletes to keep them above "C" level, as well as the effort I had to put in to flunk out myself, I have no sympathy for Chris McCray, Jared Gaither, etc. They are either ignoramuses on a gigantic scale or they just didn't listen to anyone.Chris McCray and Gaither aren't similar situations.

McCray was on track, Gary and whatever system they have in place to keep these guys passing the classes they need to pass were doing a great job. Then Chris decided to skip a couple finals because he thought it wasn't a big deal. He failed those courses, and hence didn't pass the required amount of credits to be eligible for the Spring. I'd put the blame on the coaching staff if it was a case of the kid not doing the work all semester long and having nobody looking over his shoulder. But when the only problem is the kid decided he was too important to show up for his finals, I can't blame the support staff for that. Its McCray's fault, and his only, always has been. Gary gets no blame at all for McCray's academic issues, since there was absolutely nothing reasonable he could have done to prevent it.

[inmn]

Something we are losing sight of is that this is not a pro sport, the University
of Maryland is an academic institution run by professional educators with oversight by the Board of Regents-most could care less about basketball. We may judge GW by wins/losses but his employer largely looks at two objectives: revenue produced (including alumni/booster giving) and administration (ie-don't embarass the university). However the graduation rate is defined it is embarassing to Yow and the academic side of the university and snowballs upon on recent administration problems within the men's basketball program. By all accounts Yow does care for GW but tolerates him as long as he does his job. Behind the scenes this will make his job more difficult; GW would like the same percentage of revenue allocated back into the basketball program as other ACC programs to help with recruiting (facilities, travel, meals, support etc..)-he's not going to win any budget battles this year. There may also be oversight repercussions for academic exceptions-which would affect marginals like Wilcox or Jennings. No matter how you cut it more oversight is not a good thing if you like winning. On a personal note it is dissapointing to see people who could care less about kids who provide entertainment and enjoyment for others and bring a very diverse campus, alumni, and community together. I like to see former players prosper outside of basketball like Len Elmore as opposed to JoJo Hunter or Baxter (Jail).

[BaltimoreTerp]

Something we are losing sight of is that this is not a pro sport, the University
of Maryland is an academic institution run by professional educators with oversight by the Board of Regents-most could care less about basketball. We may judge GW by wins/losses but his employer largely looks at two objectives: revenue produced (including alumni/booster giving) and administration (ie-don't embarass the university). However the graduation rate is defined it is embarassing to Yow and the academic side of the university and snowballs upon on recent administration problems within the men's basketball program. By all accounts Yow does care for GW but tolerates him as long as he does his job. Behind the scenes this will make his job more difficult; GW would like the same percentage of revenue allocated back into the basketball program as other ACC programs to help with recruiting (facilities, travel, meals, support etc..)-he's not going to win any budget battles this year. There may also be oversight repercussions for academic exceptions-which would affect marginals like Wilcox or Jennings. No matter how you cut it more oversight is not a good thing if you like winning. On a personal note it is dissapointing to see people who could care less about kids who provide entertainment and enjoyment for others and bring a very diverse campus, alumni, and community together. I like to see former players prosper outside of basketball like Len Elmore as opposed to JoJo Hunter or Baxter (Jail).

So, you would rather see a 100% graduation rate and a 15-win team?

And again, anyone who looks at the reason behind the "0%" (and it deserves, like everything else from the NCAA, to be in quotes) and views it as embarrassing is not someone I want affiliated with my university anyway, because it shows a real lack of intelligence and critical/logical thinking skills.

[geschinger]

So, you would rather see a 100% graduation rate and a 15-win team?


How about option 3 - a 25 win team with a > 0% graduation rate?



And again, anyone who looks at the reason behind the "0%" (and it deserves, like everything else from the NCAA, to be in quotes) and views it as embarrassing is not someone I want affiliated with my university anyway, because it shows a real lack of intelligence and critical/logical thinking skills.

Anytime one is the worst at something it's embarassing. It in no way shows a real lack of intelligence or critical/logical thinking skills. Now anyone that ignores the context and calls for the coaches head or some other kind of ridiculous remedy - that would be different.

[inmn]

So, you would rather see a 100% graduation rate and a 15-win team?

And again, anyone who looks at the reason behind the "0%" (and it deserves, like everything else from the NCAA, to be in quotes) and views it as embarrassing is not someone I want affiliated with my university anyway, because it shows a real lack of intelligence and critical/logical thinking skills.

No, that's not my point, and why are the two mutually exclusive-they are not at other schools. Please re-read my post, my point is that most professors, administrators and regents will view it as embarassing that Md is last with 130? some odd schools ahead of them. I think most of them see the U of Md's mission not to produce basketball players but to educate young men and women-and these are the people that GW deals with on an everday basis. Does it mean they will win or lose more games-I don't have a clue but Gary's job will be at least marginally more dufficult.

You do realize that in making your last statement that graduation rates determine available scholarships as per the NCAA and GW's is incenticized on graduation rates? So the council which set the policy and is populated by university presidents not AD's lacks "intelligence and critical/logical thinking skills"?

[BaltimoreTerp]

No, that's not my point, and why are the two mutually exclusive-they are not at other schools. Please re-read my post, my point is that most professors, administrators and regents will view it as embarassing that Md is last with 130? some odd schools ahead of them. I think most of them see the U of Md's mission not to produce basketball players but to educate young men and women-and these are the people that GW deals with on an everday basis. Does it mean they will win or lose more games-I don't have a clue but Gary's job will be at least marginally more dufficult.

You do realize that in making your last statement that graduation rates determine available scholarships as per the NCAA and GW's is incenticized on graduation rates? So the council which set the policy and is populated by university presidents not AD's lacks "intelligence and critical/logical thinking skills"?

My statement still stands.

The players in question are, mostly, doing what the University of Maryland was preparing them for: a career in their chosen field.

If I got a job offer from a newspaper and dropped out of Towson, does that reflect poorly on Towson because of my decision? Should I pay back the grants I'm getting from them and the state?

All the graduation rates do is perpetuate a lie so that the university presidents who finance other educational pursuits through the sports involved can sleep at night without feeling as though they sold their souls to the green-backed devil.

It's just another example of the hypocrisy of "college" athletics, and if you are going to blame Gary Williams for a group of players who are doing what they went to college to learn how to do, then I really don't know what to tell you.

[Dr. FLK]

My statement still stands.

The players in question are, mostly, doing what the University of Maryland was preparing them for: a career in their chosen field.

If I got a job offer from a newspaper and dropped out of Towson, does that reflect poorly on Towson because of my decision? Should I pay back the grants I'm getting from them and the state?

All the graduation rates do is perpetuate a lie so that the university presidents who finance other educational pursuits through the sports involved can sleep at night without feeling as though they sold their souls to the green-backed devil.

It's just another example of the hypocrisy of "college" athletics, and if you are going to blame Gary Williams for a group of players who are doing what they went to college to learn how to do, then I really don't know what to tell you.

I hear ya on this. And, I agree with it in theory. But 0% is dreadful, no matter how you slice it. Zero? Just give me a few...make it look respectable. See, every major college in the country can use that excuse. Yet none of the others have a big, fat zero. It just makes the school look bad...and I have too many degrees from there for it to start looking bad.;)

[Ruzious]

My statement still stands.

The players in question are, mostly, doing what the University of Maryland was preparing them for: a career in their chosen field.

If I got a job offer from a newspaper and dropped out of Towson, does that reflect poorly on Towson because of my decision? Should I pay back the grants I'm getting from them and the state?

All the graduation rates do is perpetuate a lie so that the university presidents who finance other educational pursuits through the sports involved can sleep at night without feeling as though they sold their souls to the green-backed devil.

It's just another example of the hypocrisy of "college" athletics, and if you are going to blame Gary Williams for a group of players who are doing what they went to college to learn how to do, then I really don't know what to tell you.
Thank you. Well said.

It's 10 student athletes that's important - not some single statistic that used in a vacuum is meaningless. 10 out of 10 have played professionally. The vast majority of people get a college education to improve their chances at a profession. So tell me how the University failed them.

Speaking of hypocrisy, why is there just an outcry about basketball athletes? College baseball players left colleges to go pro at a far greater rate than basketball players for many years - with almost zero public outcry. And the vast majority of them get paid peanuts - never making decent money playing baseball.

[inmn]

My statement still stands.

The players in question are, mostly, doing what the University of Maryland was preparing them for: a career in their chosen field.

If I got a job offer from a newspaper and dropped out of Towson, does that reflect poorly on Towson because of my decision? Should I pay back the grants I'm getting from them and the state?

All the graduation rates do is perpetuate a lie so that the university presidents who finance other educational pursuits through the sports involved can sleep at night without feeling as though they sold their souls to the green-backed devil.

It's just another example of the hypocrisy of "college" athletics, and if you are going to blame Gary Williams for a group of players who are doing what they went to college to learn how to do, then I really don't know what to tell you.

Terp,

The majority of Md's players don't get a chance to play in the NBA or even Europe, of those that do very few will make enough money to be set for life. Why do you think Booth went back to school-Md wouldn't hire him without a degree. Without a degree they can't get a job coaching or teaching in high school or college so they end up bouncing around the developmental league like Mouton or running a rec center like Cephas-hardly a career. Invariably all of them regret not taking advantage of their college experience. If there is any hypocrisy in college athletics it is in not preparing kids for life after sports. Believe it or not universities exist for education not sports and the guys that make the rules are acamedicians not coaches. In my experience your decision to drop out of Towson does not refect poorly upon them but you-and it is something you are more likely than not to regret as you age.

I don't know of any schools that "finances educational pursuits through sports" unless you are referring to alumni giving. Atheletic Departments at the D1 level are almost always self supporting or as in the case at MD for a few years in the red and borrowing from the university. I will submit to you many, many more college presidents lose sleep over athletes flunking out or being arrested.

[geschinger]

Thank you. Well said.

It's 10 student athletes that's important - not some single statistic that used in a vacuum is meaningless. 10 out of 10 have played professionally. The vast majority of people get a college education to improve their chances at a profession. So tell me how the University failed them.

Speaking of hypocrisy, why is there just an outcry about basketball athletes? College baseball players left colleges to go pro at a far greater rate than basketball players for many years - with almost zero public outcry. And the vast majority of them get paid peanuts - never making decent money playing baseball.

Baseball players graduate at a higher rate than basketball players so I'm not sure the relevance of bringing up that sport.. I do disagree that there is an outcry about basketball graduation rates. If Maryland was at anything other than 0% it doesn't get much attention. It's kind of like the O's 30-3 loss earlier this year. Give up 20 runs and it's a bad night, give up 30 and it's a national embarrassment. Hit the magic 0% mark and you are going to get attention you'd never get even if they'd only graduated 5 or 10%.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I don't know of any schools that "finances educational pursuits through sports" unless you are referring to alumni giving. Atheletic Departments at the D1 level are almost always self supporting or as in the case at MD for a few years in the red and borrowing from the university. I will submit to you many, many more college presidents lose sleep over athletes flunking out or being arrested.

That's my point. They are self-supporting, so the colleges don't have to pay for them. And do you think all of the bowl/tournament money really stays within the athletic department?

[Eight]

Thank you. Well said.

It's 10 student athletes that's important - not some single statistic that used in a vacuum is meaningless. 10 out of 10 have played professionally. The vast majority of people get a college education to improve their chances at a profession. So tell me how the University failed them.



Precisely. What does it matter that Juan Dixon didn't get his degree in Family Education (or maybe it was Crim) now that he's in the NBA. The majority of the players in question went to the NBA. And all but one or maybe two are playing pro ball somewhere right now.

The University doesn't allow athletes (or anyone) to finish up degree work online like many other institutions do - UNC for one. If that changes, we'd see the grad rate rise. But to expect that guys working out to become NBA players are going to stay in school until the end of May and/or come back to College Park in the offseason is ridiculous. It's not going to happen.

Another thing to remember is that the players can come back after their eligibility expires and finish the requisite course work. Booth didn't have his degree, but he went back and got it so he could do going into coaching. The academics will always be there. Players have a limited window to maximize their earning potential in pro ball and to expect them to do otherwise is a disservice.

For those who think this is a big deal what specifically should the University and the Athletic Dept./Coaching staff do differently in order to facilitate higher graduation rates?

[inmn]

That's my point. They are self-supporting, so the colleges don't have to pay for them. And do you think all of the bowl/tournament money really stays within the athletic department?

Terp,

Come on.....

Yes-first of all most schools after expenses break even or lose on bowls unless it is BCS. The tournament money stays in the AD, the AD budget is less than 4% of UMCP's budget-which is seperate by the way. The AD balances a roughly $50m budget, the UMCP buget is roughly $1.3b.
Tournament money stays within the department is all audited by the university and the state. Without football and mens basketball revenue the AD could not balance their budget, not even close.

[inmn]

Precisely. What does it matter that Juan Dixon didn't get his degree in Family Education (or maybe it was Crim) now that he's in the NBA. The majority of the players in question went to the NBA. And all but one or maybe two are playing pro ball somewhere right now.

The University doesn't allow athletes (or anyone) to finish up degree work online like many other institutions do - UNC for one. If that changes, we'd see the grad rate rise. But to expect that guys working out to become NBA players are going to stay in school until the end of May and/or come back to College Park in the offseason is ridiculous. It's not going to happen.

Another thing to remember is that the players can come back after their eligibility expires and finish the requisite course work. Booth didn't have his degree, but he went back and got it so he could do going into coaching. The academics will always be there. Players have a limited window to maximize their earning potential in pro ball and to expect them to do otherwise is a disservice.

For those who think this is a big deal what specifically should the University and the Athletic Dept./Coaching staff do differently in order to facilitate higher graduation rates?

Here we go again:
Other schools on this list face the same issues what makes Md any different?
Grad rates for men's basketball

Teams from the final 2006-07 men's basketball USA TODAY Top 25 Coaches' Poll ranked by graduation success rate for classes entering 1997-2000.

Team (Poll) Grad rate

1. Florida (1) 100

2. Butler (13) 92

3. North Carolina (tie-5) 86

4. Vanderbilt (19) 83

5. Georgetown (4) 82

6. Virginia (24) 80

7. Southern Illinois (tie-11) 79

8. Winthrop (22) 77

9. Wisconsin (tie-11) 67

9. Virginia Tech (25) 67

National average 61

11. Oregon (8) 59

12. Pittsburgh (10) 56

13. Louisville (20) 50

14. Kansas (tie-5) 45

15. Ohio State (2) 40

15. UCLA (3) 40

15. Memphis (7) 40

15. Texas A&M (9) 40

19. Washington State (17) 35

19. Nevada (21) 35

21. Texas (16) 33

21. Tennessee (18) 33

23. Southern California (15) 29

24. UNLV (14) 15

25. Maryland (23) 0

[Eight]

Here we go again:
Other schools on this list face the same issues what makes Md any different?
Grad rates for men's basketball

Teams from the final 2006-07 men's basketball USA TODAY Top 25 Coaches' Poll ranked by graduation success rate for classes entering 1997-2000.

Team (Poll) Grad rate

1. Florida (1) 100

2. Butler (13) 92

3. North Carolina (tie-5) 86

4. Vanderbilt (19) 83

5. Georgetown (4) 82

6. Virginia (24) 80

7. Southern Illinois (tie-11) 79

8. Winthrop (22) 77

9. Wisconsin (tie-11) 67

9. Virginia Tech (25) 67

National average 61

11. Oregon (8) 59

12. Pittsburgh (10) 56

13. Louisville (20) 50

14. Kansas (tie-5) 45

15. Ohio State (2) 40

15. UCLA (3) 40

15. Memphis (7) 40

15. Texas A&M (9) 40

19. Washington State (17) 35

19. Nevada (21) 35

21. Texas (16) 33

21. Tennessee (18) 33

23. Southern California (15) 29

24. UNLV (14) 15

25. Maryland (23) 0

What on earth are you talking about? I already addressed what makes Maryland different. The University of Maryland requires all students to complete their final credits on campus in College Park. Other schools have programs that allow students to finish the requisite course work online. This would be an example of certain other schools not facing the same issues. To continue to claim that all schools do face the same issues is simply patently untrue. Do you not see how this makes it much more difficult for a basketball player who goes to the NBA or plays overseas to earn his degree?

[inmn]

What on earth are you talking about? I already addressed what makes Maryland different. The University of Maryland requires all students to complete their final credits on campus in College Park. Other schools have programs that allow students to finish the requisite course work online. This would be an example of certain other schools not facing the same issues. To continue to claim that all schools do face the same issues is simply patently untrue. Do you not see how this makes it much more difficult for a basketball player who goes to the NBA or plays overseas to earn his degree?

That is simply not true, UMCP recognizes and accepts credits from other accredited universities-students can and do graduate based upon transfered credits. Other schools, many on that list do not accept online classes for good reason-they are BS. The point is Md can and should do better-is the time period an annomaly-sure but if you want to try and defend the indefensible (last among D1 schools) when all top 25 teams last year were much higher it is obvoius you are just busting my balls to bust my balls. This should be a forum to exchange ideas and information not to constantly attack people.

My point is Md is no different than almost all of those schools and even has less stringent requirements than many. Please re-read my post I wrote "other schools" not "all schools" as you asserted again taking my post completely out of context!!

[Eight]

That is simply not true, UMCP recognizes and accepts credits from other accredited universities-students can and do graduate based upon transfered credits.

This is simply not true. The University requires that students take a certain number of their final credits "in residence" at the University. The University accepts transfer credits but not in the final credits taken to complete degree work. I read in one of the articles about this grad rates that it is the final 12 credits that must be taken on campus.


Other schools, many on that list do not accept online classes for good reason-they are BS. The point is Md can and should do better-is the time period an annomaly-sure but if you want to try and defend the indefensible (last among D1 schools) when all top 25 teams last year were much higher it is obvoius you are just busting my balls to bust my balls. This should be a forum to exchange ideas and information not to constantly attack people.

I posted on this thread just to "bust your balls" despite the fact that I had several posts here discussing the issue before you showed up? Do you even realize that you responded to me? Where have I attacked you? If you have that much of an issue with my posts, just don't respond.

Whether or not Maryland should accept online credits to fulfill degree requirements is irrelevant to the fact that other schools (North Carolina for one) DO allow their athletes to fulfill degree requirements without taking classes on campus. To ignore that this gives other schools a MAJOR benefit in graduation rate numbers is simply silly.

I have no idea whether all, some or few major DI colleges have more lax standards with regard to this than the University of Maryland, and I suspect you don't either. The point being that other schools - including more prestigious ones like UNC - DO have more lax standards in relation to athletes graduating. Context is important in this issue but is being largely ignored.

Either way, players are graduating NOW, so it's all a moot point.

[inmn]

8,

Md faces the same issues and challenges as others on that list which I think you will agree is Md's peer group. You cite one unsupported issue regarding one school (UNC), and ask "what on earth are you talking (writing) about?-regarding the whole list. That's pretty unfair.....

BTW:

Undergraduate Degree Requirements

1. Residency Requirement-Final Thirty Hour Rule

a. All candidates for undergraduate degrees from UMCP
must take their final thirty credits at UMCP.
Included in these thirty semester hours will be a
minimum of fifteen semester hours in courses
numbered 300 or above, including at least twelve
semester hours in the major field.

b. A student who at the time of graduation will have
completed thirty hours in residence at UMCP may,
under unusual circumstances, be permitted to take
a maximum of six of the final thirty credits of
record at another institution. In such cases,
written permission must be obtained in advance
from the dean of the academic unit from which the
student expects to receive the degree. Exceptions
beyond six credits will be made only under highly
unusual circumstances, and such requests must be
made through the Dean's Office to the Office of
the Vice President for Academic Affairs.

[BustaJ2632]

I was hoping we could go a full page with posts that started with "That is simply not true," but oh well. Eight is definitely right on this one, though. Maryland's policy in this issue is ridiculous. Allowing for six of the last 30 credits to be from another institution simply isn't good enough. There should be no "on-campus requirement" for the final credits, and students should be able to complete courses online, not at some other school. I know of no other place that has a policy quite like this one.

[Eight]

8,

Md faces the same issues and challenges as others on that list which I think you will agree is Md's peer group. You cite one unsupported issue regarding one school (UNC), and ask "what on earth are you talking (writing) about?-regarding the whole list. That's pretty unfair.....

BTW:

Undergraduate Degree Requirements

1. Residency Requirement-Final Thirty Hour Rule

a. All candidates for undergraduate degrees from UMCP
must take their final thirty credits at UMCP.
Included in these thirty semester hours will be a
minimum of fifteen semester hours in courses
numbered 300 or above, including at least twelve
semester hours in the major field.

b. A student who at the time of graduation will have
completed thirty hours in residence at UMCP may,
under unusual circumstances, be permitted to take
a maximum of six of the final thirty credits of
record at another institution. In such cases,
written permission must be obtained in advance
from the dean of the academic unit from which the
student expects to receive the degree. Exceptions
beyond six credits will be made only under highly
unusual circumstances, and such requests must be
made through the Dean's Office to the Office of
the Vice President for Academic Affairs.


http://www.diamondbackonline.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticle&ustory_id=a4961869-2bc8-49a3-b72e-af8db0e00d3c (a link)


The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, which had a GSR score of 86 percent in the report, offers players the opportunity to take online correspondence courses in order to complete their degree.

Again, I don't know how many schools offer similar programs or that they all face the same challenges. I'm sure some do. I feel confident in saying others don't. If you disagree, that's fine, I will just respectfully disagree. Because in either case these players have been out of the program for years and the players here now are graduating at a much higher rate.

[RayFink1e]

And they all sucked in the NBA.

[square634]

And they all sucked in the NBA.

I don't think Dixon, Blake, and Wilcox have been terrible in the NBA. Blake specifically has exceeded expectations, Dixon was about at expectations (the Wizards really reached for him because he was a local hero I think), and Wilcox and Baxter were disappointing.

[BustaJ2632]

I never really expected much out of Baxter in the NBA....although it's hard to call his post-Maryland career anything but disappointing, unfortunately.

Wilcox left college a year too early. I think he's just now starting to get over it, but he can definitely become a solid NBAer yet.

Also I'd like to refer you all to THolden's post a little ways down this page (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=174#s=174&f=2580&t=1150941&p=3), and then again at the very bottom. Yes, that is who you think it is. First off, I think that underlines just how important it is for universities to allow students to finish their degrees with online courses instead of necessarily being on campus. And furthermore, it shows what stupid rules the NCAA has in place that prevent a good guy and a good student who did get his degree from counting towards the Maryland numbers.

[Ruzious]

Baseball players graduate at a higher rate than basketball players so I'm not sure the relevance of bringing up that sport.. I do disagree that there is an outcry about basketball graduation rates.
Whether or not that's true, that's irrelevant to the discussion. I wasn't comparing graduation rates.


If Maryland was at anything other than 0% it doesn't get much attention. It's kind of like the O's 30-3 loss earlier this year. Give up 20 runs and it's a bad night, give up 30 and it's a national embarrassment. Hit the magic 0% mark and you are going to get attention you'd never get even if they'd only graduated 5 or 10%.
I don't know why you and inmn continue to ignore the fact that we're talking about 10... count them... 10 students in the statistic... all of whom went on to get paid to play basketball - and some of them may have graduated - I think there was an earlier post that showed some of them did. It just might have taken them more than the allotted period used for that statistic. Miller probably graduated from Notre Dame. And the 11th guy - who's not counted in this stat - Cephas - did graduate from Maryland. Mouton probably graduated. Stop looking at the stat all by itself, and look at the reality. It's like evaluating Tejada's defense by just looking at his fielding percentage. Right?

[geschinger]

Whether or not that's true, that's irrelevant to the discussion. I wasn't comparing graduation rates.

I don't know why you and inmn continue to ignore the fact that we're talking about 10... count them... 10 students in the statistic... all of whom went on to get paid to play basketball - and some of them may have graduated - I think there was an earlier post that showed some of them did. It just might have taken them more than the allotted period used for that statistic. Miller probably graduated from Notre Dame. And the 11th guy - who's not counted in this stat - Cephas - did graduate from Maryland. Mouton probably graduated. Stop looking at the stat all by itself, and look at the reality. It's like evaluating Tejada's defense by just looking at his fielding percentage. Right?

I'm not sure what the point you were trying to make was by bringing up college baseball.

I basically agree w/you that it isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things since it is somewhat of an aberration. If the program or school thinks the stat is unfair in it's implementation maybe they should go on the offensive. Bob Huggins had even more criticism than GW has gotten for his 0% grad rate a while back. He went on the offensive and got some real improvements to how the stats are counted - i.e. not penalizing the program for guys who leave early for the NBA.

[mweb]

And they all sucked in the NBA.

No, Wilcox is pretty good, Blake and Dixon are solid role players.

[Ruzious]

I'm not sure what the point you were trying to make was by bringing up college baseball.
..........

Speaking of hypocrisy, why is there just an outcry about basketball athletes? College baseball players left colleges to go pro at a far greater rate than basketball players for many years - with almost zero public outcry. And the vast majority of them get paid peanuts - never making decent money playing baseball.