To Those Who Think One Player Makes No Difference

[Old#5fan]

......excerpt from today's Sun article:


The key is getting McNair healthy and back to his form from last season, because his play often dictates the Ravens' success. In Ravens wins the past two seasons, McNair has thrown 16 touchdown passes and eight interceptions for a quarterback rating of 89.7. In Ravens losses, he has two touchdown passes and six interceptions for a rating of 72.5.

It would seem that when McNair puts up Boller-like ratings and performance the Ravens lose and when he puts up McNair-like ratings they win. Ergo, the belief that the QB position is not any more important then any other position or that one particular postion or player doesn't impact a team winning or losing is clearly wrong. Again, I have seen Don Shula make comments on national tv that the main problem with the Dolphins failing to win year after year is lack of a true franchise NFL QB. Shula, a HOF coach who I respect greatly said that there is "no single position in all of sports" that is more vital to a team's success than the NFL QB position.

Not that I needed Shula to point out the obvious as all you need to do is look at the Ravens and how much better they perform when McNair is at his best or imagine the Colts or Patriots without Manning or Brady. There is no more nonsense that I have ever seen spouted anywhere when someone espouses that a QB isn't going to win or lose a game, i.e, makes little difference. That is equivilent to stating a football is perfectly round. Not only is it wrong, it is obviously wrong! Also those who state QB ratings are meaningless are also very much out in leftfield or with no leg to stand on as ratings very much correspond with success or wins and losses on the field by a QB over the long haul. I don't see how this can be more clearly illustrated in rather basic fashion by the excerpt I have quoted from todays Sun.

[66-70-83-??]

......excerpt from today's Sun article:


The key is getting McNair healthy and back to his form from last season, because his play often dictates the Ravens' success. In Ravens wins the past two seasons, McNair has thrown 16 touchdown passes and eight interceptions for a quarterback rating of 89.7. In Ravens losses, he has two touchdown passes and six interceptions for a rating of 72.5.


It would seem that when McNair puts up Boller-like ratings and performance the Ravens lose and when he puts up McNair-like ratings they win. Ergo, the belief that the QB position is not any more important then any other position or that one particular postion or player doesn't impact a team winning or losing is clearly wrong. Again, I have seen Don Shula make comments on national tv that the main problem with the Dolphins failing to win year after year is lack of a true franchise NFL QB. Shula, a HOF coach who I respect greatly said that there is "no single position in all of sports" that is more vital to a team's success than the NFL QB position. Not that I needed Shula to point out the obvious as all you need to do is look at the Ravens and how much better they perform when McNair is at his best or imagine the Colts or Patriots without Manning or Brady. There is no more nonsense that I have ever seen spouted anywhere when someone espouses that a QB isn't going to win or lose a game, i.e, makes little difference. That is equivilent to stating a football is perfectly round. Not only is it wrong, it is obviously wrong!

Shocker !:eek: The post is about Boller. :rolleyes:

You are truly a "one note Johnny".

No one said QB isn't an important position. After all, he has the ball in his hands a lot. But, rarely does the QB lose the game all by himself.

The only game I can think of recently where you can totally pin the game on the QB is the first game against Cincy when McNair turned it over himself 6 times.

[Sports Guy]

This is pointless...No one has ever said that QB isn't important and no one has ever said it is not the mopst important position on the field.

But to say a QB SINGLEHANDEDLY loses games is such a ridiculous comment....Sure, it may happen once in a blue moon but individual players don't lose games, teams do(in football).

BTW, it is funny how you continue to ignore everything else and ignore what national people say.

Just absurd....It is no wonder everyone wants to put you on ignore and not respect your opinion.

[Old#5fan]

This is pointless...No one has ever said that QB isn't important and no one has ever said it is not the mopst important position on the field.

But to say a QB SINGLEHANDEDLY loses games is such a ridiculous comment....Sure, it may happen once in a blue moon but individual players don't lose games, teams do(in football).

BTW, it is funny how you continue to ignore everything else and ignore what national people say.

Just absurd....It is no wonder everyone wants to put you on ignore and not respect your opinion.

Again read the article. When McNair plays well the Ravens win. When he doesn't they lose. So to say that the play of a team (including the Ravens as shown) doesn't largely hinge on the QB play is clearly wrong. If he has a bad game they are more apt to lose, but than again common sense in this area sometimes seems to be lacking for some reason around here with a few who would rather respond with a position unsupported by use of the words " absurd" etc. Yet this was a fact quoted out of today's Sun. I don't see how you can dispute it. I didn't pull this out of my proverbial rear end. It is reality!

[Sports Guy]

Again read the article. When McNair plays well the Ravens win. When he doesn't they lose. So to say that the play of a team (including the Ravens as shown) doesn't largely hinge on the QB play is clearly wrong. If he has a bad game they are more apt to lose, but than again common sense in this area sometimes seems to be lacking for some reason around here with a few who would rather respond with a position unsupported by use of the words " absurd" etc. Yet this was a fact quoted out of today's Sun. I don't see how you can dispute it. I didn't pull this out of my proverbial rear end. It is reality!

Well of course if the QB plays bad they lose.

But his poor play doesn't just fall on his shoulders.

Boller throws a pass to Heap in the end zone...Heap drops it and it gets picked off. The INT goes to Boller but it is Heap's fault.

Mcnair drops back in the pocket and Gaither doesn't block his assignment...McNair gets blindsided and fumbles....McNair gets the fumble but it is really the fault of Gaither.

Everything has to work as one for a football team to win...And everything fails as one for a football team to lose.

This is common sense...Anyone disputing that should be banned from watching football.

Boller led the team on 2 TD drives the other day....What has Ray lewis always said? Just give me 17 points and we will win. Well, Kyle got them 14 but the defense didn't do their job.

That's how it works.

And this is especially true when you have a team that is very banged up and is missing key guys.

And you still continue to ignore everything else so really, are you are doing is trolling and making yourself look worse and worse.

[Sports Guy]

Again read the article. When McNair plays well the Ravens win. When he doesn't they lose. So to say that the play of a team (including the Ravens as shown) doesn't largely hinge on the QB play is clearly wrong. If he has a bad game they are more apt to lose, but than again common sense in this area sometimes seems to be lacking for some reason around here with a few who would rather respond with a position unsupported by use of the words " absurd" etc. Yet this was a fact quoted out of today's Sun. I don't see how you can dispute it. I didn't pull this out of my proverbial rear end. It is reality!

Ok and Ron Jaworski said that individuals don't lose football games, organizations do.

That is a fact that he said.

[The Wedge]

Oh no, do we have opinion vs. fact confusion again?

[Old#5fan]

Ok and Ron Jaworski said that indivisuals don't lose football games, organizations do.

That is a fact that he said.

So now we have the NFL gospel according to Jaws, a mediocre to decent NFL QB whose main accomplishment was a long career? I would love to ask him about his thoughts on what Earl Morrall did in Superbowl III and how his play that particular game was the fault of the organization when he was the NFL MVP and the NFL Champion Colts were 17 point favorites?:rolleyes: :eek:

[square634]

......excerpt from today's Sun article:


The key is getting McNair healthy and back to his form from last season, because his play often dictates the Ravens' success. In Ravens wins the past two seasons, McNair has thrown 16 touchdown passes and eight interceptions for a quarterback rating of 89.7. In Ravens losses, he has two touchdown passes and six interceptions for a rating of 72.5.

It would seem that when McNair puts up Boller-like ratings and performance the Ravens lose and when he puts up McNair-like ratings they win. Ergo, the belief that the QB position is not any more important then any other position or that one particular postion or player doesn't impact a team winning or losing is clearly wrong. Again, I have seen Don Shula make comments on national tv that the main problem with the Dolphins failing to win year after year is lack of a true franchise NFL QB. Shula, a HOF coach who I respect greatly said that there is "no single position in all of sports" that is more vital to a team's success than the NFL QB position.

Not that I needed Shula to point out the obvious as all you need to do is look at the Ravens and how much better they perform when McNair is at his best or imagine the Colts or Patriots without Manning or Brady. There is no more nonsense that I have ever seen spouted anywhere when someone espouses that a QB isn't going to win or lose a game, i.e, makes little difference. That is equivilent to stating a football is perfectly round. Not only is it wrong, it is obviously wrong! Also those who state QB ratings are meaningless are also very much out in leftfield or with no leg to stand on as ratings very much correspond with success or wins and losses on the field by a QB over the long haul. I don't see how this can be more clearly illustrated in rather basic fashion by the excerpt I have quoted from todays Sun.

That's like saying the leadoff guy doesn't get on base a lot when the Orioles don't score many runs. Does that make it his fault that they didn't score a lot of runs, or is it simply an obvious correlation without causation.

[Sports Guy]

So now we have the NFL gospel according to Jaws, a mediocre to decent NFL QB whose main accomplishment was a long career? I would love to ask him about his thoughts on what Earl Morrall did in Superbowl III and how his play that particular game was the fault of the organization when he was the NFL MVP and the NFL Champion Colts were 17 point favorites?:rolleyes: :eek:

LOL...But we are supposed to listen to Bulldog and a Sun reporter? LOL

You are absurd.

Jaws is way way way more knowledgable than those guys put together.

[NewMarketSean]

If the QB dictates whether we win or lose, then how oh how did the Ravens win the following games???

2003

@ CLE 33-13
Boller 7-17, 78 YDS, 1 INT

@ SD 24-10
Boller 12-21, 98 YDS, 1 INT, 1 TD

@ ARZ 26-18
Boller 9-18, 75 YDS, 0 INT, 0 TD

CIN 31-13
Wright 8-19, 145 YDS, 2 INT, 1 TD

PIT 13-10
Wright 16-27, 163 YDS, 1 INT, 0 TD

2004

PIT 30-13
Boller 10-18, 98 YDS, 0 INT, 0 TD

@ WAS 17-10
Boller 9-18, 81 YDS, 3 INT, 0 TD

BUF 20-6
Boller 10-19, 86 YDS, 0 INT, 0 TD

2005

NYJ 13-3
Wright 15-21, 144 YDS, 1 INT, 0 TD

2006

BUF 19-7
McNair 23-35, 216 YDS, 1 INT, 0 TD

2007

@ SF 9-7
McNair 29-43, 214 YDS, 0 INT, 0 TD

[Old#5fan]

LOL...But we are supposed to listen to Bulldog and a Sun reporter? LOL

You are absurd.

Jaws is way way way more knowledgable than those guys put together.

Well that is your opinion but I can think of plenty of other ex-players who are also knowledgeable and don't think much of Boller. BTW, I didn't recall hearing or reading anything from Jaws regarding comments on those final pass plays by Boller in the Buffalo game. I do know this much, Jaws in general as an ex-QB is a lot less critical of quarterbacks and I think he is biased towards defending poor QB play with such ludicrous comments that no one player loses a game. He sounds like he just doesn't want to single any player out and as an ex-player he is biased. I would rather listen to Theisman, Bradshaw, Aikman, Simms, Young, or even Eaisason than Jaws for that reason. At least those other guys will tell the truth.

[NewMarketSean]

Well that is your opinion but I can think of plenty of other ex-players who are also knowledgeable and don't think much of Boller. BTW, I didn't recall hearing or reading anything from Jaws regarding comments on those final pass plays by Boller in the Buffalo game. I do know this much, Jaws in general as an ex-QB is a lot less critical of quarterbacks and I think he is biased towards defending poor QB play with such ludicrous comments that no one player loses a game. He sounds like he just doesn't want to single any player out and as an ex-player he is biased. I would rather listen to Theisman, Bradshaw, Aikman, Simms, Young, or even Eaisason than Jaws for that reason. At least those other guys will tell the truth.

Maybe you should start quoting those guys when it comes to Boller instead of some local hack on 1300 AM from now on. It would at least make you look a little less foolish.

98% of the posters on these boards are more intelligent than Damon "The Bulldog" Yaffe and more qualified to be on the air talking about sports too. Heck, I bet even the Bulldog doesn't have your TV watching resume!

[Old#5fan]

Maybe you should start quoting those guys when it comes to Boller instead of some local hack on 1300 AM from now on. It would at least make you look a little less foolish.

98% of the posters on these boards are more intelligent than Damon "The Bulldog" Yaffe and more qualified to be on the air talking about sports too. Heck, I bet even the Bulldog doesn't have your TV watching resume!

Again, you are entitled to your opinion and beliefs as much as I, but in listening to Yaffe, he seemed highly knowledgable, much moreso than the much older Marty Bass, who impressed me as someone pretty much clueless. So here is a case where I am giving credit to a much younger Ravens fan knowing a lot more than an older Ravens fan! (So see, I am not as biased as you seem to think).:p

[Objectivity]

Well that is your opinion but I can think of plenty of other ex-players who are also knowledgeable and don't think much of Boller. BTW, I didn't recall hearing or reading anything from Jaws regarding comments on those final pass plays by Boller in the Buffalo game. I do know this much, Jaws in general as an ex-QB is a lot less critical of quarterbacks and I think he is biased towards defending poor QB play with such ludicrous comments that no one player loses a game. He sounds like he just doesn't want to single any player out and as an ex-player he is biased. I would rather listen to Theisman, Bradshaw, Aikman, Simms, Young, or even Eaisason than Jaws for that reason. At least those other guys will tell the truth.

Not thinking much of Boller doesn't mean that you can't also think nothing much about McNair (at this point in his career).

Basically, we have a choice between a quarterback with a strong arm who can get the ball downfield but whose accuracy is questionable versus a quarterback who is accurate but everyone knows he can't throw more than 15 yards so they can ignore the deep ball and play the short pass only.

Both are bad options long term.

[Old#5fan]

If the QB dictates whether we win or lose, then how oh how did the Ravens win the following games???

2003

@ CLE 33-13
Boller 7-17, 78 YDS, 1 INT

@ SD 24-10
Boller 12-21, 98 YDS, 1 INT, 1 TD

@ ARZ 26-18
Boller 9-18, 75 YDS, 0 INT, 0 TD

CIN 31-13
Wright 8-19, 145 YDS, 2 INT, 1 TD

PIT 13-10
Wright 16-27, 163 YDS, 1 INT, 0 TD

2004

PIT 30-13
Boller 10-18, 98 YDS, 0 INT, 0 TD

@ WAS 17-10
Boller 9-18, 81 YDS, 3 INT, 0 TD

BUF 20-6
Boller 10-19, 86 YDS, 0 INT, 0 TD

2005

NYJ 13-3
Wright 15-21, 144 YDS, 1 INT, 0 TD

2006

BUF 19-7
McNair 23-35, 216 YDS, 1 INT, 0 TD

2007

@ SF 9-7
McNair 29-43, 214 YDS, 0 INT, 0 TD



Nice try but the Sun article was specific to the past two seasons with McNair as the Ravens QB. Going back in ancient history when the Ravens had a scary good defense so much so that they could bail out horrid QB play and still win games is not appropo to the current team. Nice try though, but try getting on point with the article that I quoted which you can easily read on the Sun website.

[NewMarketSean]

Again, you are entitled to your opinion and beliefs as much as I, but in listening to Yaffe, he seemed highly knowledgable, much moreso than the much older Marty Bass, who impressed me as someone pretty much clueless. So here is a case where I am giving credit to a much younger Ravens fan knowing a lot more than an older Ravens fan! (So see, I am not as biased as you seem to think).:p

And what qualifications does Marty Bass have to talk about sports? He's a freaking weather man! Saying that Yaffe has a more qualified opinion that Bass is like saying that Elephant Boy is smarter than Crackhead Bob!

But what is funny, is that I bet that Marty Bass was saying positive things about Boller and Yaffe wasn't, which is why OldFan thinks Yaffe is smarter. Is this the case, OldFan?

[Mark Carver]

I'm so confused...


When McNair plays well the Ravens win. When he doesn't they lose.

9/17/06 vs Raiders, QB rate of 58.0, 48.5% completed passes, 4.3 yards per pass, 1 TD, 1 INT = WIN
11/30/06 vs Bengals, QB rate of 82.2, 60.2% completed passes, 5.3 yards per pass, 1 TD = LOSS

;)

[NewMarketSean]

Nice try but the Sun article was specific to the past two seasons with McNair as the Ravens QB. Going back in ancient history when the Ravens had a scary good defense so much so that they could bail out horrid QB play and still win games is not appropo to the current team. Nice try though, but try getting on point with the article that I quoted which you can easily read on the Sun website.

So the defense (which was ranked #1) wasn't scary good last year?

You make me laugh.

The name of the game for Baltimore QB's since 2000 has been protecting the ball. McNair usually did a good job of that last year. Boller has gotten better at doing it throughout his career. He protected the ball last Sunday.

If the BAL defense is as good as it has been in the past, we win that game 14-6.

It's common sense.

[The Wedge]

And what qualifications does Marty Bass have to talk about sports? He's a freaking weather man! Saying that Yaffe has a more qualified opinion that Bass is like saying that Elephant Boy is smarter than Crackhead Bob!

But what is funny, is that I bet that Marty Bass was saying positive things about Boller and Yaffe wasn't, which is why OldFan thinks Yaffe is smarter. Is this the case, OldFan?

Oh, the old "their opinion is awesome becuase it's mine" problem. It's like the cliches just keep on coming.

[NewMarketSean]

I'm so confused...



9/17/07 vs Raiders, QB rate of 58.0, 48.5% completed passes, 4.3 yards per pass, 1 TD, 1 INT = WIN
11/30/07 vs Bengals, QB rate of 82.2, 60.2% completed passes, 5.3 yards per pass, 1 TD = LOSS

;)

I think you have the dates wrong. Those games are from 2006.

Anyway, I did a more in-depth analysis of bad QB play in BAL wins, much like yours and OldFan wrote it off like he always does, so I imagine he'll do the same with yours.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Why are you guys even bothering?

[Sports Guy]

And what qualifications does Marty Bass have to talk about sports? He's a freaking weather man! Saying that Yaffe has a more qualified opinion that Bass is like saying that Elephant Boy is smarter than Crackhead Bob!

But what is funny, is that I bet that Marty Bass was saying positive things about Boller and Yaffe wasn't, which is why OldFan thinks Yaffe is smarter. Is this the case, OldFan?

Yea, it is amusing he keeps bringing up Marty Bass. I have no idea what that is all about.

[PaulFolk]

Well that is your opinion but I can think of plenty of other ex-players who are also knowledgeable and don't think much of Boller. BTW, I didn't recall hearing or reading anything from Jaws regarding comments on those final pass plays by Boller in the Buffalo game. I do know this much, Jaws in general as an ex-QB is a lot less critical of quarterbacks and I think he is biased towards defending poor QB play with such ludicrous comments that no one player loses a game. He sounds like he just doesn't want to single any player out and as an ex-player he is biased. I would rather listen to Theisman, Bradshaw, Aikman, Simms, Young, or even Eaisason than Jaws for that reason. At least those other guys will tell the truth.
Don't these two bolded comments contradict each other? Aren't all the guys you mentioned also former QBs?

[BaltimoreTerp]

Don't these two bolded comments contradict each other? Aren't all the guys you mentioned also former QBs?

Don't bother. His head might explode if he were to read that (not that he will).

[Sports Guy]

Don't these two bolded comments contradict each other? Aren't all the guys you mentioned also former QBs?
And besides, the quote went right over the head of the Old man.

Jaws wasn't talking about a Qb at all...In fact, he was actually talking about a head coach but that was a general comment he made.

Of course, that is just common sense.

[The Wedge]

Yea, it is amusing he keeps bringing up Marty Bass. I have no idea what that is all about.

He's on TV. Beyond that? *shrug*

[ScottieBaseball]

Don't bother. His head might explode if he were to read that (not that he will).

If you want to contribute to the discussion, throw in your $.02 on the subject at-hand, then do it. Aside from that, posts like this serve no good purpose. Stop. Cool?

[Old#5fan]

Don't these two bolded comments contradict each other? Aren't all the guys you mentioned also former QBs?

Yes, of course they are but JAWS stands out because unlike those guys (including Marino who I inadvertently omitted) he won't bad mouth another QB and the rest of them usually have no problem doing so.

[Sports Guy]

Yes, of course they are but JAWS stands out because unlike those guys (including Marino who I inadvertently omitted) he won't bad mouth another QB and the rest of them usually have no problem doing so.
You must not listen to Jaws because he routinely bad mouths QBs but he does it in a different way.

He breaks down the tapes, shows you why they aren't good and says they may need to replace him.

He is more diplomatic but the end point is the same.

[Old#5fan]

You must not listen to Jaws because he routinely bad mouths QBs but he does it in a different way.

He breaks down the tapes, shows you why they aren't good and says they may need to replace him.

He is more diplomatic but the end point is the same.

JAWS is one ex-player I don't particularly care for as a commentator. I just don't like his nice guy analysis. I much prefer someone who pulls no punches and calls a spade a spade.

[NewMarketSean]

JAWS is one ex-player I don't particularly care for as a commentator. I just don't like his nice guy analysis. I much prefer someone who pulls no punches and calls a spade a spade.

Again with the selective bias. Why did I take you off ignore again?

[Old#5fan]

Again with the selective bias. Why did I take you off ignore again?

No, just a preference. I also cannot stand Jim Rome either as I find him obxoious. I also dislike Chris Berman with a passion. Its not any selective bias, I just don't like their work or style. I would take JAWS over either of those two buffoons though anyday.

Out of all the ex-QB commentators I dislike JAWS and Sean Salsbury the most. I think part of it has to do with the fact I never thought either one was much to write home about as a player although JAWS would be a HOF candidate in comparison to Salsbury.

[ScottieBaseball]

He's on TV. Beyond that? *shrug*

This probably belongs in the rants forum, but Marty Bass hosts some half-witted post-game show and gives us his "expert" analysis along with Damon Yaffe, neither of whom have any more credibility than anyone participating in this thread.

What drives me crazy about Marty Bass is how flat-out wrong he's been regarding the Orioles and Ravens (misquoting stats, performances, etc.), but a few thousand Baltimore-born post-middle-aged housewives watch him in their bathrobes every morning and think, "Wow...he does the weather AND sports? He's so smart!!! I LOVE MARTY BASS, HAWN!!!"

[ScottieBaseball]

Again with the selective bias. Why did I take you off ignore again?

Oh...my...God...

Put him back on your ignore list. Seriously, Sean? Are you trying to incite another round of personal attacks stemming from an otherwise decent thread? Otherwise I'm not sure why you would post like that.

You may not agree with Old#5Fan, but he's barely toed the line between sharing his opinion and attacking the opinion sharer. You and some others on the other hand? I expect more from you guys.

[Old#5fan]

This probably belongs in the rants forum, but Marty Bass hosts some half-witted post-game show and gives us his "expert" analysis along with Damon Yaffe, neither of whom have any more credibility than anyone participating in this thread.

What drives me crazy about Marty Bass is how flat-out wrong he's been regarding the Orioles and Ravens (misquoting stats, performances, etc.), but a few thousand Baltimore-born post-middle-aged housewives watch him in their bathrobes every morning and think, "Wow...he does the weather AND sports? He's so smart!!! I LOVE MARTY BASS, HAWN!!!"

I agree, he seems totally clueless and I have no idea why they let him do a show with any kind of Ravens commentary other than he seems like a diehard (yet totally lost) Ravens fan! Yaffe or Bulldog to me seems extremely knowledgeable and the kind of guy I could sit down at a bar with and intelligently discuss our favorite team. He even impressed me as being knowledgable somewhat about the cap issues with the Ravens as one of the items of discussion was if JO had retired before the season would the Ravens been able to keep AD. Yaffe said no and gave reasons (which I must admit I missed) while Bass had no clue.

[Sports Guy]

No, just a preference. I also cannot stand Jim Rome either as I find him obxoious. I also dislike Chris Berman with a passion. Its not any selective bias, I just don't like their work or style. I would take JAWS over either of those two buffoons though anyday.

Out of all the ex-QB commentators I dislike JAWS and Sean Salsbury the most. I think part of it has to do with the fact I never thought either one was much to write home about as a player although JAWS would be a HOF candidate in comparison to Salsbury.

I bet if Jaws came out and said Boller is not a good NFL QB, you would be posting that opinion.

Basically, you only seem to like the guys who share your same opinion about Boller.

[Old#5fan]

I bet if Jaws came out and said Boller is not a good NFL QB, you would be posting that opinion.

Basically, you only seem to like the guys who share your same opinion about Boller.

No, there are other things that sway my opinion of commentators. Jim Rome for example, I have no idea what he thinks of Boller but I cannot stomach the guy, same as Chris Berman.