Every Year The Offense Stinks Under Billick!!

[Darthy Katt]

Can someone, anyone explain why year after year the Ravens' offense stinks under Billick? We all know that he came to the Ravens as an offensive guru from the Vikings. Last nights 38-7 thrashing in Pittsburgh I feel has brought this problem to a head. Yes, Newsome signs the player, but Billick is the one who has input & fields them. Why can't the Billick/Newsome combo select & groom a decent quarterback? Yes the B/N combo has put together some of the greatest defenses in NFL history, but why can't these two assemble a decent offense??

[The Wedge]

Part of it is the defense. To maintain a good defense you have to sacrifice cap room on offense. The other part is the scheme. I don't think Billick knows how to correctly utilize a player at all. Instead of forcing players to fit a program/scheme, you should mold programs around your personnel.

But mainly, it's because Brian Billick isn't as good as he would have you believe. Thanks for the title, Brian, but you done.

[Old#5fan]

Not that I am a great admirer of Billick as I think his defense won the superbowl for him in spite of his coaching in 2000 (it took him forever to bench Banks for Dilfer) but he has been severely handicapped by not having a quarterback. The best two he has had on the roster were over-the-hill and on their last legs in Randall Cunningham, and Steve McNair although at least McNair was able to squeeze out one final good season. The biggest flaw on offense for this team is lack of a QB to match the competition. They let the one that showed the most promise get quaffed by the Browns and now they are in quarterback hell.

[Mackus]

Not that I am a great admirer of Billick as I think his defense won the superbowl for him in spite of his coaching in 2000 (it took him forever to bench Banks for Dilfer) but he has been severely handicapped by not having a quarterback. The best two he has had on the roster were over-the-hill and on their last legs in Randall Cunningham, and Steve McNair although at least McNair was able to squeeze out one final good season. The biggest flaw on offense for this team is lack of a QB to match the competition. They let the one that showed the most promise get quaffed by the Browns and now they are in quarterback hell.Grbac was better than Cunningham by a ton and probably better than McNair (at the time they each arrived in Baltimore, not for their careers).

[Old#5fan]

Grbac was better than Cunningham by a ton and probably better than McNair (at the time they each arrived in Baltimore, not for their careers).

You just made a firm statement of the obvious though I am not sure why in response to my post? :confused: The point of my post was to illustrate that Billick has never had a truly elite QB as coach of the Ravens. Both Cunningham and McNair are as close as he has ever gotten to one and both were already over-the-hill or on the downside of their careers. I firmly believe if you give Billick a Palmer, Rothlesberger, Brady, Manning, or even Derek Anderson, and the Ravens offense would be a productive one. Unfortnately, the sorry fact the Ravens FO cannot solve the QB puzzle is what has singlehandedly hurt this teams chances more than any other single aspect and has throughout the Billick era. I truly believe as do many Ravens fans that they still don't have a starting caliber QB on their roster even at this point in time.

[Camden_yardbird]

Im starting to be of the mindset that Billick did not win us a superbowl but rather that Billick squandered about 6 years of one of the top 3 defenses in football. The ravens could have been something great over the last 6-7 years and that window is closing fast.

Judging from last nights game I would say this may have actually been rock bottom. I mean McNair 13+ complete passes and only 63 yards...

I put all the blame on Billick. If we continue with the premised argument of the thread then it would be Ozzie Newsome who is to balme, and I don't buy it. Teams have offense with worse quarterbacks. I mean look at what Gray has done for Jacksonville for the past two weeks. Harrington was actually moving the ball in Atlanta. Hell even Brooks Bollinger had a decent game against the Ravens...and we have had many more capable QB's then them.

[The Wedge]

Grbac was better than Cunningham by a ton and probably better than McNair (at the time they each arrived in Baltimore, not for their careers).

By far. Grbac had a monster year. He just didn't have it in him to keep playing.

[NewMarketSean]

Not that I am a great admirer of Billick as I think his defense won the superbowl for him in spite of his coaching in 2000 (it took him forever to bench Banks for Dilfer) but he has been severely handicapped by not having a quarterback.

The best two he has had on the roster were over-the-hill and on their last legs in Randall Cunningham, and Steve McNair although at least McNair was able to squeeze out one final good season. The biggest flaw on offense for this team is lack of a QB to match the competition. They let the one that showed the most promise get quaffed by the Browns and now they are in quarterback hell.

QB's don't play defense, don't commit dumb penalties, don't normally play like they don't give a damn (although with McNair I wonder if this is still the case) and overall, don't allow the other team to score 35 points in a half.

Other teams have won and are winning without solid play from their QB's, so I don't buy this excuse. It plays a part, but to keep coming back to the QB position when there is obviously a million other problems elsewhere shows me that you are either still a one-track anti-Boller guy or don't know as much about football as you like to say you do.

Plain and simple, Billick has just lost his grip on this team. Normally, after a bye the team comes back focused and ready to play. That couldn't be further from the truth last night.

And when will Billick get this team to play better in bad weather?

[Old#5fan]

By far. Grbac had a monster year. He just didn't have it in him to keep playing.

He also could not operate out of the shotgun formation, avoid a pass rush, or hit a hot read under pressure (recall his fetal position plays) and had no heart (recall the tear running down his face on the sideline after a sack). In short, he wasn't very good either. I remember the Steelers defense laughing at him and saying there was "no way Grbac was going to beat them."

[NewMarketSean]

By far. Grbac had a monster year. He just didn't have it in him to keep playing.

Grbac didn't have a monster year. He threw more INT's (18) than TD's (15). By comparison, he threw one less than McNair last year.

He did it without Jamal at RB, and I think he would have been a lot better with Jamal there, but he wasn't the leader this team needed.

[The Wedge]

Grbac didn't have a monster year. He threw more INT's (18) than TD's (15). By comparison, he threw one less than McNair last year.

He did it without Jamal at RB, and I think he would have been a lot better with Jamal there, but he wasn't the leader this team needed.

Forgive me, I meant that in a figurative sense, not the usual literal. If it weren't for some of Grbacs play, we wouldn't have sniffed the post season that year, is all.

[Sports Guy]

I don't agree with the money stuff.

The bottom line is this team has failed to get a big play WR(they tried with TO) and, more importantly, they have failed getting a QB.

The QB position is the #1 reason we have not won multiple Super Bowls in this era.

Take Brady and Manning off of their teams and look at the rosters(not just now but in year's past)..The talent isn't as good as a lot of teams. That isn't to say they don't have talent but those teams are who they are because of their QBs.

The Ravens don;t have that QB....I am not sure what they can do to acquire that QB but they need one.

And really, maybe even moreso than that, they need someone calling plays who has a clue and someone who isn't scared to win the game.

Billick is scared....We have one of the leading rushers in football. We need to run it more though...Mike Anderson, where are you? Musa Smith, where are you?

Billick never coaches games to win. He coaches not to lose.

That is a bigger issue than cap space.

[ccbird]

The QB position like some have said here is the number one reason we haven't made the playoffs every year since 2000 except for the complete overhaul year in 2002. We have simply not had an above average QB on the roster since Billick has been here. Maybe Grbac would have been if he came back and we gave him a running game. McNair played within himself last year and managed the team to a 13-3 record but his skills had eroded even last year to the point that he wasn't an above average QB. He just got by on his intangibles and guts. Boller, Redman, Blake,Wright all played below league average in their time as starting QB. Now the question is how much blame for this goes on Billick and how much goes on Ozzie?? There is no doubt in my mind that we have squandered prime Super Bowl potential years between 2003-2007 by not having good QB play. The thing is if Billick is gonna take a fall for blowing it in that 5 year window without getting one playoff win than Ozzie has to take just as much blame for not getting him a quality QB.

[NewMarketSean]

I'll agree that a large part of why we're struggling is because of our lack of a good QB. But take Brady, Manning... the best of the best and put them in Baltimore. Still think they put up similar numbers with the playcalling? I don't. I think the struggles of our QBs have been the result of many factors that are ultimately tied back to Billick and Newsome. I also think a lot of these problems can be fixed by firing Billick.

[TGO]

And when will Billick get this team to play better in bad weather?

Good question. While we're ranting about all this stuff, let me ask this question, have the Ravens ever practiced outside in the rain under Billick? Sure doesn't seem like it. They may as well forfeit every time it rains.

[NewMarketSean]

Good question. While we're ranting about all this stuff, let me ask this question, have the Ravens ever practiced outside in the rain under Billick? Sure doesn't seem like it. They may as well forfeit every time it rains.

I was thinking during the debacle last night, that if they haven't practiced indoors with the sprinkler system on full blast, now would be a good time.

[Old#5fan]

I'll agree that a large part of why we're struggling is because of our lack of a good QB. But take Brady, Manning... the best of the best and put them in Baltimore. Still think they put up similar numbers with the playcalling? I don't. I think the struggles of our QBs have been the result of many factors that are ultimately tied back to Billick and Newsome. I also think a lot of these problems can be fixed by firing Billick.

I totally disagree. It all starts with talent and ability at the QB position. This has been a well-known fact for many, many years since the forward pass came into vogue. While it is true you have to have a team around the QB as well, you at least need a QB who can not kill you with turnovers and can score TD's when given the opportunity and move the ball well in a tight game.

Firing Billick won't help the quarterbacks improve as currently on this team one iota. Conversely, get Billick a young stud QB and I guarantee you the offense becomes much better. A true stud #1 wide receiver would also work wonders as well to go along with the QB. Kind of like Braylon Edwards and Derek Anderson. Look what firepower those two now give the Browns that was completely missing before their arrival. The presense of just those two players changes the entire complexity of that team and has helped elevate it from a laughingstock into a playoff contender.

[Camden_yardbird]

The QB position like some have said here is the number one reason we haven't made the playoffs every year since 2000 except for the complete overhaul year in 2002. We have simply not had an above average QB on the roster since Billick has been here. Maybe Grbac would have been if he came back and we gave him a running game. McNair played within himself last year and managed the team to a 13-3 record but his skills had eroded even last year to the point that he wasn't an above average QB. He just got by on his intangibles and guts. Boller, Redman, Blake,Wright all played below league average in their time as starting QB. Now the question is how much blame for this goes on Billick and how much goes on Ozzie?? There is no doubt in my mind that we have squandered prime Super Bowl potential years between 2003-2007 by not having good QB play. The thing is if Billick is gonna take a fall for blowing it in that 5 year window without getting one playoff win than Ozzie has to take just as much blame for not getting him a quality QB.

Can't agree with you here. I think the blame rests almost entirely on Billick. Year after year Billick struggles making this offense go even with decent QB's while other teams in similar situation have worse QB's that are able to pass the ball and move the offense.

The only time that Billick spoke up about getting a certain QB he got Boller and then showed that he did not know how to handle a young QB. And it is not like Newsome can go out every year and acquire a stud QB, it doesn't work that way. You have to plan your resources and take the best player in available when you draft. That has worked really well for the Ravens. Billick deserves most of the blame for the offense, for the system he put into place and the way he has been handling the players the last few years.

Newsome has done nothing but draft probowlers, and players good enough to keep this team competitve despite Billick in the last few years.

[Old#5fan]

Forgive me, I meant that in a figurative sense, not the usual literal. If it weren't for some of Grbacs play, we wouldn't have sniffed the post season that year, is all.

And the average poster here was supposed to figure that out by reading your typed post?:confused: Good luck on that! I immediately thought you were being intentionally clueless as a joke, which is why I didn't bother to even respond! Boy, was I wrong!:eek:

[Old#5fan]

The QB position like some have said here is the number one reason we haven't made the playoffs every year since 2000 except for the complete overhaul year in 2002. We have simply not had an above average QB on the roster since Billick has been here. Maybe Grbac would have been if he came back and we gave him a running game. McNair played within himself last year and managed the team to a 13-3 record but his skills had eroded even last year to the point that he wasn't an above average QB. He just got by on his intangibles and guts. Boller, Redman, Blake,Wright all played below league average in their time as starting QB. Now the question is how much blame for this goes on Billick and how much goes on Ozzie?? There is no doubt in my mind that we have squandered prime Super Bowl potential years between 2003-2007 by not having good QB play. The thing is if Billick is gonna take a fall for blowing it in that 5 year window without getting one playoff win than Ozzie has to take just as much blame for not getting him a quality QB.

This pretty much sums it up. You can draft a slew of pro-bowlers at other postions but one top flight QB is the equalizer or the ingredient that has been sorely lacking on this club since Billick took over as the coach. Ergo, I must give him a pass. To those who disagree ask yourself if Dungy and Bellicheck had McNair instead of Peyton or Boller instead of Brady, how good they would be? I doubt if either team would be even in first place in their division and might be 4-4 at best.

[Old#5fan]

Can't agree with you here. I think the blame rests almost entirely on Billick. Year after year Billick struggles making this offense go even with decent QB's while other teams in similar situation have worse QB's that are able to pass the ball and move the offense.

The only time that Billick spoke up about getting a certain QB he got Boller and then showed that he did not know how to handle a young QB. And it is not like Newsome can go out every year and acquire a stud QB, it doesn't work that way. You have to plan your resources and take the best player in available when you draft. That has worked really well for the Ravens. Billick deserves most of the blame for the offense, for the system he put into place and the way he has been handling the players the last few years.

Newsome has done nothing but draft probowlers, and players good enough to keep this team competitve despite Billick in the last few years.

Other than starting Boller too soon as a rookie and not having a veteran mentor for him to learn from I fail to see what Billick did wrong with him. He hired Fassel (same guru who tutored Elway) and also supported him from day one. I truly think that Boller just has way too many flaws in his game to ever be good enough to start in the pros, now matter how he would have been developed. Its just not there. When he's been in the league 5 years and makes throwing a screen pass look next to impossible you have to know he's not up to par.A top NFL QB or even an adequate one makes every throw without difficulty for the most part. That has never been the case with Boller even when he was going against second team defenses in pre-season. He still looked bad. He was vastly overated and like Rex Grossman should never have been drafted in the first round. He was more like a project that never panned out than a high pick with all the tools.

[ccbird]

Can't agree with you here. I think the blame rests almost entirely on Billick. Year after year Billick struggles making this offense go even with decent QB's while other teams in similar situation have worse QB's that are able to pass the ball and move the offense.

The only time that Billick spoke up about getting a certain QB he got Boller and then showed that he did not know how to handle a young QB. And it is not like Newsome can go out every year and acquire a stud QB, it doesn't work that way. You have to plan your resources and take the best player in available when you draft. That has worked really well for the Ravens. Billick deserves most of the blame for the offense, for the system he put into place and the way he has been handling the players the last few years.

Newsome has done nothing but draft probowlers, and players good enough to keep this team competitve despite Billick in the last few years.

Boller somewhat goes on Billick but you have to remember the whole draft fiasco and the fact that we should have had Leftwich. Not that he has proven to be much better than Boller. Newsome has to take a lot of the blame for the QB's. No question, no doubt. He finally went out and got someone last year that was good enough to get us into the playoffs but was also at the extreme back end of his career. BTW, a lot of people weren't complaining last year when Billick took over the playcalling, McNair was executing it well and we went 11-1 down the stretch with a top 10 offense in that time frame.


Billick has his flaws, his game management at the end of halfs and the end of the game has always been bad. He often has not had his team ready to play to start the year. He has stayed with veteran players way too long and he has had some questionable play calls this year but he isn't anywhere close to the biggest reason why this offense has been bad the last 7 years or so. If it continues he will take the fall for it and I'm ok with that as getting a new face and philosophy is sometimes needed but don't expect things to get better until we get a good QB.

[Old#5fan]

Boller somewhat goes on Billick but you have to remember the whole draft fiasco and the fact that we should have had Leftwich. Not that he has proven to be much better than Boller. Newsome has to take a lot of the blame for the QB's. No question, no doubt. He finally went out and got someone last year that was good enough to get us into the playoffs but was also at the extreme back end of his career. BTW, a lot of people weren't complaining last year when Billick took over the playcalling, McNair was executing it well and we went 11-1 down the stretch with a top 10 offense in that time frame.


Billick has his flaws, his game management at the end of halfs and the end of the game has always been bad. He often has not had his team ready to play to start the year. He has stayed with veteran players way too long and he has had some questionable play calls this year but he isn't anywhere close to the biggest reason why this offense has been bad the last 7 years or so. If it continues he will take the fall for it and I'm ok with that as getting a new face and philosophy is sometimes needed but don't expect things to get better until we get a good QB.


Amen to the last part of your last sentence. No coach in NFL history would look good with what the Ravens trot out there as alleged NFL QBs at this point in time. McNair is done, and Boller is a never-will-be.

[NewMarketSean]

Billick has had his chance. Matter of fact he's had, wait let's see (Mitchell, Case, Banks, Dilfer, Grbac, Cunningham, Redman, Blake, Boller, Wright, McNair) 11 chances to get it right.

Newsome is to share in some of the blame, but last time I checked, Grbac, Blake and McNair were legit veteran QB's in this league when they first arrived on the scene. Yet somehow the results have largely remained the same and gotten even worse.

If you want to blame the lack of a good QB for the losing, fine. But that isn't an isolated thing. It's attached to Billick. Who asked for a leap of faith in Mitchell? Billick. Who stuck with Banks too long in 2000? Billick. Who wanted Boller? Billick. So I don't see how you can say "get Billick a proven #1 QB" because he's already had his chance to make it work.

Next.

It always comes back to Billick, and to a lesser extent, Newsome. And there is no doubt in my mind as to who has got to go.

[Old#5fan]

Billick has had his chance. Matter of fact he's had, wait let's see (Mitchell, Case, Banks, Dilfer, Grbac, Cunningham, Redman, Blake, Boller, Wright, McNair) 11 chances to get it right.

Newsome is to share in some of the blame, but last time I checked, Grbac, Blake and McNair were legit veteran QB's in this league when they first arrived on the scene. Yet somehow the results have largely remained the same and gotten even worse.

If you want to blame the lack of a good QB for the losing, fine. But that isn't an isolated thing. It's attached to Billick. Who asked for a leap of faith in Mitchell? Billick. Who stuck with Banks too long in 2000? Billick. Who wanted Boller? Billick. So I don't see how you can say "get Billick a proven #1 QB" because he's already had his chance to make it work.

Next.

It always comes back to Billick, and to a lesser extent, Newsome. And there is no doubt in my mind as to who has got to go.

(Mitchell, Case, Banks, Dilfer, Grbac, Cunningham, Redman, Blake, Boller, Wright, McNair)

You actually help make my point by trotting all of these names out. The common denominator is none of them were worth much either in ability (look at all the backup calibers in this bunch) or by being well past their prime (Cunningham, McNair). Nary a one has done anything since departing the Ravens either, other than the one promising stud (Anderson) whom they stupidly left get away.

The point is, these are all inadequate NFL starting QB's (other than McNair for one season) that Billick has been handicapped with. No head coach would succeed with this bunch over the long haul, I am positive of that!

[NewMarketSean]

(Mitchell, Case, Banks, Dilfer, Grbac, Cunningham, Redman, Blake, Boller, Wright, McNair)

You actually help make my point by trotting all of these names out. The common denominator is none of them were worth much either in ability (look at all the backup calibers in this bunch) or being well past their prime (Cunningham, McNair). Nary a one has done anything since departing the Ravens either, other than the one promising stud (Anderson) whom they stupidly left get away.

The point is, these are all inadequate NFL starting QB's (other than McNair for one season) that Billick has been handicapped with. No head coach would succeed with this bunch over the long haul, I am positive of that!

Mitchell was a bum. No arguments there. However it is a fault to Billick that he thought he could resurrect his career. It was like Leo Mazzone bringing in Ramon Ortiz and thinking he could work miracles.

Case was at one mentioned as the best QB in the 1999 draft if he would have been in it. After the KC game, Case was finished.

Banks seemed like he'd become a Billick success story. He had a great second half in 1999. For some reason it didn't work except outside of the JAX game.

Dilfer was a decent ball protection QB. However he was run out of town after 2000 probably due partially to Billick who wanted another big passer.

Grbac was the best available FA QB when he came in here and was far from being "done." But by the time the season was over, he was more than done.

Redman was another Billick success story. 7 TD and 3 INT before getting injured. But Billick seemed uninterested in Redman and flirted with Blake's bigger arm during the offseason and then the Ravens drafted Boller.

Boller was a failure, partially to Billick's fault and McNair hasn't been his old self, even when he was 13-3 last year.

You can't say all of these guys have been washed-up QB's when they came here. But if you are, then you have to wonder why they were brought here in the first place. And that goes back to Billick and Newsome.

[Sports Guy]

Grbac threw for more than 4000 yards the year before we brought him here.

No Searcy and Jamal hurt him big time.

But he looked terrible when he came here, that is for sure.

[Old#5fan]

Again, all I am espousing is I think Billick deserves having a decent QB on his roster for about 3-4 years to see what his offense does before showing him the bus, but thats just me. One thing I am fairly certain and that is niether Tony Dungy, nor Bill Bellacheck would have won any superbowl with any of their teams with a Billick QB from the list above and that includes Dilfer and McNair (past his prime).

[NewMarketSean]

Again, all I am espousing is I think Billick deserves having a decent QB on his roster for about 3-4 years to see what his offense does before showing him the bus, but thats just me. One thing I am fairly certain and that is niether Tony Dungy, nor Bill Bellacheck would have won any superbowl with any of their teams with a Billick QB from the list above and that includes Dilfer and McNair (past his prime).

I think you're wrong. Billick has had decent QB's (Grbac, Blake, Dilfer, McNair). The Ravens didn't bring back Dilfer so they could get Grbac. The Ravens decided they didn't want Grbac when Grbac became a crybaby. The Ravens wouldn't give Blake what he was asking. And now it looks like the Ravens got one good year of McNair.

Realistically, Billick could have stuck with one of Dilfer, Grbac or Blake. They were decent QB's that you could give some yeras to. But Billick and the Ravens went in another direction.

I just get sick and tired of the media and fans saying that the Ravens have had a revolving door of crap QB's. Sure, they haven't had superstars come through here, and BAL is the place where QB's go to die, but they've had some productive QB's over the last few years, none of them just never stuck for whatever reason.

I'm placing most of the blame on a fickle Billick.

[Birds of B'more]

Grbac threw for more than 4000 yards the year before we brought him here.

No Searcy and Jamal hurt him big time.

That's right. Even if we had been able to hang on to Priest Holmes I'd like to see what might have happened in 2001. As it was we were stuck with a has-been Terry Allen and a never-was Jason Brookins.


But he looked terrible when he came here, that is for sure

While it was clear Grbac's heart was no longer in the game by the end of the season, IIRC 2001 still was the only year that the Ravens finished in the top half of the league in passing under Billick. Like you said, had they not lost J Lewis/Holmes/Searcy, a better running game should have made a huge difference and maybe Grbac would have put up numbers more like what he did in KC.

[Old#5fan]

I think you're wrong. Billick has had decent QB's (Grbac, Blake, Dilfer, McNair). The Ravens didn't bring back Dilfer so they could get Grbac. The Ravens decided they didn't want Grbac when Grbac became a crybaby. The Ravens wouldn't give Blake what he was asking. And now it looks like the Ravens got one good year of McNair.

Realistically, Billick could have stuck with one of Dilfer, Grbac or Blake. They were decent QB's that you could give some yeras to. But Billick and the Ravens went in another direction.

I just get sick and tired of the media and fans saying that the Ravens have had a revolving door of crap QB's. Sure, they haven't had superstars come through here, and BAL is the place where QB's go to die, but they've had some productive QB's over the last few years, none of them just never stuck for whatever reason.

I'm placing most of the blame on a fickle Billick.

I have bolded the part of your post above that I completely disagree with. Dilfer is a career backup and has demonstrated it over his career. Not a bad backup, but nonetheless not a starting QB that will win with most teams. Blake, another journeyman career backup. Finally, Grbac, a QB with fairly decent numbers but nothing special who lost his heart when he became a Raven for some reason. So to say these three were decent as backups, I would agree but as a starting QB only Grbac would be close to being decent and he was only here for one year and nothing to write home about. Billick has shown that he cannot judge QB talent a lick, but to blame him for these backup level and mediocre types not performing like elite QB's is folly. You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken crap.

[NewMarketSean]

I have bolded the part of your post above that I completely disagree with. Dilfer is a career backup and has demonstrated it over his career. Not a bad backup, but nonetheless not a starting QB that will win with most teams. Blake, another journeyman career backup. Finally, Grbac, a QB with fairly decent numbers but nothing special who lost his heart when he became a Raven for some reason. So to say these three were decent as backups, I would agree but as a starting QB only Grbac would be close to being decent and he was only here for one year and nothing to write home about. Billick has shown that he cannot judge QB talent a lick, but to blame him for these backup level and mediocre types not performing like elite QB's is folly. You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken crap.

First of all, if playing like a back-up QB wins my team Super Bowls, I am fine with keeping that player a few more years to see if he can do the job again.

But based on the standards to which you hold Boller, and the never-ending love you demonstrate for Unitas, you must seem to think that a QB needs to either be a Hall of Famer or he's a bum.

No, the Ravens have never had a HoF type QB in their history, but not many teams have one over a 10 year span. That said, you can still get some productive years out of a QB like Dilfer, Blake and Grbac, like several other teams have done throughout their careers.

Unless you paid attention in 2000, we won a SB pretty much despite the play of our QB. So I don't exactly think we needed Tom Brady or Brett Favre as our QB to repeat. We needed a guy who could protect the ball and hand off more times than not. And Dilfer, Grbac and Blake all fit the bill. And Grbac, like everyone has said, was a big armed passer.

And even if Billick was the offensive genius that the media, and you, seem to think he is, he should have at least been able to turn one of these guys into a decent QB, which you seem to think he hasn't done.

And, when given his chance to draft a QB, Billick married himself to Boller, a kid who had one good year in college, was known to be inaccurate and have all the flaws that he mostly has today. I'm also willing to bet that Billick had some part in putting Derek Anderson on the PC which allowed the Browns to pick him up on waivers.

So I don't really know what else you expect Billick to do. He may not have been given the best ingredients at QB to develop a high-powered offense, but he's proven that you don't need an all world QB to win one, and he hasn't even given us a mediocre one.

I just don't see how he deserves to get another chance at developing a QB or building an offense. He's failed, over and over again at it.

[Old#5fan]

First of all, if playing like a back-up QB wins my team Super Bowls, I am fine with keeping that player a few more years to see if he can do the job again.

But based on the standards to which you hold Boller, and the never-ending love you demonstrate for Unitas, you must seem to think that a QB needs to either be a Hall of Famer or he's a bum.

No, the Ravens have never had a HoF type QB in their history, but not many teams have one over a 10 year span. That said, you can still get some productive years out of a QB like Dilfer, Blake and Grbac, like several other teams have done throughout their careers.

Unless you paid attention in 2000, we won a SB pretty much despite the play of our QB. So I don't exactly think we needed Tom Brady or Brett Favre as our QB to repeat. We needed a guy who could protect the ball and hand off more times than not. And Dilfer, Grbac and Blake all fit the bill. And Grbac, like everyone has said, was a big armed passer.

And even if Billick was the offensive genius that the media, and you, seem to think he is, he should have at least been able to turn one of these guys into a decent QB, which you seem to think he hasn't done.

And, when given his chance to draft a QB, Billick married himself to Boller, a kid who had one good year in college, was known to be inaccurate and have all the flaws that he mostly has today. I'm also willing to bet that Billick had some part in putting Derek Anderson on the PC which allowed the Browns to pick him up on waivers.

So I don't really know what else you expect Billick to do. He may not have been given the best ingredients at QB to develop a high-powered offense, but he's proven that you don't need an all world QB to win one, and he hasn't even given us a mediocre one.

I just don't see how he deserves to get another chance at developing a QB or building an offense. He's failed, over and over again at it.

Yeah, but the league is not the same as it was when the Ravens and Tampa won the superbowl with a great defense and an average QB. The past superbowl winners recently have all had star QBs.

[Gurgi]

Billick needs to go. He inspires no one. I am tired of him and his whole attitude. We need someone less arrogant and more intelligent.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Yeah, but the league is not the same as it was when the Ravens and Tampa won the superbowl with a great defense and an average QB. The past superbowl winners recently have all had star QBs.

If by recently you mean last year, then sure.

2005 was Ben Rothlisberger, who threw for 2400 yards that year and had a putrid Super Bowl. He was no star.

2002 was Brad Johnson, who threw for just over 3000 yards, was already on his third team, and was done as a true full-time starter a season-and-a-half later.

2001 was Tom Brady, who was not the superstar he is now.

Since 2000, four out of seven teams have not had real "star" quarterbacks.

Now, they all had quarterbacks that performed well and didn't make many mistakes, but you don't NEED a star at that position.

[geschinger]

If by recently you mean last year, then sure.

2005 was Ben Rothlisberger, who threw for 2400 yards that year and had a putrid Super Bowl. He was no star.

2002 was Brad Johnson, who threw for just over 3000 yards, was already on his third team, and was done as a true full-time starter a season-and-a-half later.

2001 was Tom Brady, who was not the superstar he is now.

Since 2000, four out of seven teams have not had real "star" quarterbacks.

Now, they all had quarterbacks that performed well and didn't make many mistakes, but you don't NEED a star at that position.

It seems to me as time goes on that the QB position is becoming more and more important. Not too long ago you could win with a guy who managed the game and didn't make many mistakes. I think the league is evolving to the point where if you don't have a stud QB who can go down the field w/the ball you simply aren't going to score enough points to win. Look at the best teams in the league this year and the one commonality is excellent QB play.

[BaltimoreTerp]

It seems to me as time goes on that the QB position is becoming more and more important. Not too long ago you could win with a guy who managed the game and didn't make many mistakes. I think the league is evolving to the point where if you don't have a stud QB who can go down the field w/the ball you simply aren't going to score enough points to win. Look at the best teams in the league this year and the one commonality is excellent QB play.

A lot of people probably thought that in the 80s and 90s when the league was dominated by Montana and Simms and Elway and Aikman and Young and Kelly and Marino and Favre.

Yet other teams that weren't built around the star quarterback, like the Ravens and Buccaneers and even the pre-2007 Patriots, started winning Super Bowls (with guys like Kerry Collins and Rich Gannon and Jake Delhomme making it on the losing sides).

Obviously a star quarterback that can take over a game is worth having, but it isn't critical.

[geschinger]

A lot of people probably thought that in the 80s and 90s when the league was dominated by Montana and Simms and Elway and Aikman and Young and Kelly and Marino and Favre.

Yet other teams that weren't built around the star quarterback, like the Ravens and Buccaneers and even the pre-2007 Patriots, started winning Super Bowls (with guys like Kerry Collins and Rich Gannon and Jake Delhomme making it on the losing sides).

Obviously a star quarterback that can take over a game is worth having, but it isn't critical.

There are cycles and I think we're in one where QB play is as if not more important than it has ever been. I don't think it's any accident that teams generally considered to be among the best this year - Dallas, Pittsburgh, Indy and NE are all getting superb QB play. I'm sure we'll go through another cycle at some point where it's less important than it is now but over the next few years I don't forsee teams built like the Ravens and Bucs super bowl winning teams having the same kind of success.

[longflyball]

If any team can win, and should have been able to win in the past, without a great quarterback, it is Baltimore. All Balitmore needs, and has needed, is a quarterback who can protect the ball, stay on his feet, and make enough short and medium range passes to backs, tight ends and "posession receivers" to keep drives alive. Billick has had 7 years since the Super Bowl to find a quarterback and develop a passing game that can do that. For a part of that time he didn't have receivers who could get open and catch the ball. That is really his only legitimate excuse.

Billick's offense doesn't need to be great. It doesn't even need to be good. It just needs to be average. He can't even manage that.

[Old#5fan]

If by recently you mean last year, then sure.

2005 was Ben Rothlisberger, who threw for 2400 yards that year and had a putrid Super Bowl. He was no star.

2002 was Brad Johnson, who threw for just over 3000 yards, was already on his third team, and was done as a true full-time starter a season-and-a-half later.

2001 was Tom Brady, who was not the superstar he is now.

Since 2000, four out of seven teams have not had real "star" quarterbacks.

Now, they all had quarterbacks that performed well and didn't make many mistakes, but you don't NEED a star at that position.

I personally consider Brady, Rothlesberger, and Manning all to be "star" type QBs, not backup or run of the mill starter caliber. You downplay Big Ben because of his superbowl performance but his rating that year was ungodly for a rookie.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I personally consider Brady, Rothlesberger, and Manning all to be "star" type QBs, not backup or run of the mill starter caliber. You downplay Big Ben because of his superbowl performance but his rating that year was ungodly for a rookie.

Except it was his second year ;)

[Hallas]

A lot of people probably thought that in the 80s and 90s when the league was dominated by Montana and Simms and Elway and Aikman and Young and Kelly and Marino and Favre.

Yet other teams that weren't built around the star quarterback, like the Ravens and Buccaneers and even the pre-2007 Patriots, started winning Super Bowls (with guys like Kerry Collins and Rich Gannon and Jake Delhomme making it on the losing sides).

Obviously a star quarterback that can take over a game is worth having, but it isn't critical.

I kind of disagree right now. It's getting harder and harder for players to defend against the pass because of the QB-babysitting that the refs do and the illegal contact fouls that they've been emphasizing for the past few years.

I think that you can turn the tables a little bit by having an exceptional running game, but because of potential injuries and the short shelf-life of running backs it becomes difficult to rely on them for your primary source of offense. And while the Ravens have a good running game, I wouldn't call it exceptional. McGahee needs a QB that can execute a west-coast style offense, because he cannot carry the ball 30-35 times a game.

The bottom line is that this is a passing-dominated era and despite all the help he's gotten from the rulebook his teams have gone backwards in that area. That simply can't happen on a successful Ravens team.

[Old#5fan]

Except it was his second year ;)

Okay, my bad. (It's hell when you are over 50, the last 10 years or so seem to be a blur.) Anyway, he had a hell of a QB rating his rookie year and his second year!

[66-70-83-??]

If any team can win, and should have been able to win in the past, without a great quarterback, it is Baltimore. All Balitmore needs, and has needed, is a quarterback who can protect the ball, stay on his feet, and make enough short and medium range passes to backs, tight ends and "posession receivers" to keep drives alive. Billick has had 7 years since the Super Bowl to find a quarterback and develop a passing game that can do that. For a part of that time he didn't have receivers who could get open and catch the ball. That is really his only legitimate excuse.

Billick's offense doesn't need to be great. It doesn't even need to be good. It just needs to be average. He can't even manage that.

That is 100% true. The best "team" wins, not the best QB.

The QB is only one position. How many SB's did the great QB's Archie Manning, Dan Fouts, and Dan Marino win ?

If the QB is sooooooo important, then how did Dilfer, McMahon, Rypien, Williams, Hostetler win games ? And how could the likes of Grossman, Ferragamo, Woodley, Eason, Humphries, Chandler, Collins lead a team to the SuperBowl ?

Great teams win Super Bowls, not great QB's.

[66-70-83-??]

You can blast Ozzie, Brian, and the Ravens organization til the cows come home for not getting a great QB.

They have been on a run of bad luck. It isn't like they haven't tried.

And at the end of the day- they have still been one of the most successful franchises in the NFL.

Be careful what you ask for.

Yeah, I would like to find a good, permanent solution at QB, too. But, not at the expense of a good team.

We have proven that we can win with a good defense and good running attack.

If I could snap my fingers and change ONLY one thing about the Ravens right now- it would be the Offensive Line first, not QB.

[NewMarketSean]

You can blast Ozzie, Brian, and the Ravens organization til the cows come home for not getting a great QB.

They have been on a run of bad luck. It isn't like they haven't tried.

And at the end of the day- they have still been one of the most successful franchises in the NFL.

Be careful what you ask for.

Yeah, I would like to find a good, permanent solution at QB, too. But, not at the expense of a good team.

We have proven that we can win with a good defense and good running attack.

If I could snap my fingers and change ONLY one thing about the Ravens right now- it would be the Offensive Line first, not QB.

I don't know how you can say they are still one of the most successful franchises. They may make good moves on paper, but for some reason it isn't coming together for them.

And even with all the time in the world McNair isn't going to be able to get the ball downfield fast enough to hit open WR's.

We need a better OL and QB.

[Old#5fan]

You can blast Ozzie, Brian, and the Ravens organization til the cows come home for not getting a great QB.

They have been on a run of bad luck. It isn't like they haven't tried.

And at the end of the day- they have still been one of the most successful franchises in the NFL.

Be careful what you ask for.

Yeah, I would like to find a good, permanent solution at QB, too. But, not at the expense of a good team.

We have proven that we can win with a good defense and good running attack.

If I could snap my fingers and change ONLY one thing about the Ravens right now- it would be the Offensive Line first, not QB.

Well, if you did that you would be wasting your primary finger snap! I cannot possibly fathom how you think any team in the NFL could make the playoffs with either McNair or Boller as their QB, as they are now playing. It wouldn't happen in a million years. No way, no how.

[66-70-83-??]

I don't know how you can say they are still one of the most successful franchises. They may make good moves on paper, but for some reason it isn't coming together for them.

And even with all the time in the world McNair isn't going to be able to get the ball downfield fast enough to hit open WR's.

We need a better OL and QB.

You must be kidding ?

Since the Ravens have been in existance- not very many teams have done better. We have won a SB, been in the playoffs most years and competitive every year. We have drafted better than most. We have the best home field W/L record since 2000.

NE, Ind, Pitt, Den, Phi are the only ones to come to mind that have a better winning record, but I will take a SB over the slightly better W/L records of Denver and Phi.

Would you trade our history for the last 10 years in Det, TB, Hou, Cle, Cin, NYJ, NYG, Mia, Was, Buf, Min, GB, Sea, Jax, Ten, Ari, NO, Dal, Chi, SF, Oak, KC, Atl, or Car ?

[66-70-83-??]

Well, if you did that you would be wasting your primary finger snap! I cannot possibly fathom how you think any team in the NFL could make the playoffs with either McNair or Boller as their QB, as they are now playing. It wouldn't happen in a million years. No way, no how.

Johnny Unitas wouldn't complete a pass with this offensive line.

It all starts with the O-line. They have been horrid.

We don't know exactly how bad McNair or Boller is with the play of the O-line.

[NewMarketSean]

You must be kidding ?

Since the Ravens have been in existance- not very many teams have done better. We have won a SB, been in the playoffs most years and competitive every year. We have drafted better than most. We have the best home field W/L record since 2000.

NE, Ind, Pitt, Den, Phi are the only ones to come to mind that have a better winning record, but I will take a SB over the slightly better W/L records of Denver and Phi.

Would you trade our history for the last 10 years in Det, TB, Hou, Cle, Cin, NYJ, NYG, Mia, Was, Buf, Min, GB, Sea, Jax, Ten, Ari, NO, Dal, Chi, SF, Oak, KC, Atl, or Car ?

I see your point but Billick still has to go.

[Gurgi]

Billick is stubborn man. He doesn't adjust his play calling for what kind of team he has. He also sticks with the older aging vets way way tooo long. Like Jamal Lewis. When the man couldn't get more than three yards a carry he kept him as a starter. Now with the quarterback. McNair is showing all the signs that he may be DONE and he won't pull him.

His career is full of these decisions.

[The Wedge]

Billick is stubborn man. He doesn't adjust his play calling for what kind of team he has. He also sticks with the older aging vets way way tooo long. Like Jamal Lewis. When the man couldn't get more than three yards a carry he kept him as a starter. Now with the quarterback. McNair is showing all the signs that he may be DONE and he won't pull him.

His career is full of these decisions.

And he's a classic over thinker, too. You can set your watch by him doing exactly the opposite of conventional thinking in a given situation. Which would be good once in awhile, but when you do it all the time, that's even more predictable and somewhat stupid since conventional thinking is conventional for a reason.

[66-70-83-??]

I see your point but Billick still has to go.

That is a different issue.

This year will likely be his last, unless we turn it around FAST.

I haven't given up on this team yet.

There is still a lot of football left. We can still turn it around but we have to do so NOW with no room for error. 10-6 would give us a good chance at a wildcard.

As good as Indy and NE look now- history suggests that they cannot keep it up at that level all year.

Our biggest problem has been all the injuries. Heap, Ogden, McNair, Rolle, McAlister, Pryce, Terry, Flynn- that is some serious talent lost for a large part of season. You can call that an excuse, thats fine, but it is still a fact that injuries have hit the Ravens very hard.

Could the Patriots withstand losing Samuel, Hobbs, Wifork, Light, Watson, Neal, and Brady for extended period ? Would they be 9-0 ? Doubtful.

Could the Colts withstand losing Manning, Clark, Saturday, Freeney, Jackson, etc.... for several games a piece ?

[The Wedge]

I haven't given up on this team yet.



After that completely undisciplined egg laying performance coming off a bye on Monday night, I wish I could be with you, but I'm done. If they manage to scrap out a winning season, it'll be despite themselves. That was more embarrassingly undisciplined than that game in Denver with the ludicrous amount of penalties.

[Old#5fan]

Johnny Unitas wouldn't complete a pass with this offensive line.

It all starts with the O-line. They have been horrid.

We don't know exactly how bad McNair or Boller is with the play of the O-line.

I agree the OL has been bad but if you paid attention to the individual plays there have been ample ocasions where both McNair and Boller had adequate time and still looked awful. Niether has been even close to being considered accurate this season even when given time to throw.

[Tony-OH]

Again, all I am espousing is I think Billick deserves having a decent QB on his roster for about 3-4 years to see what his offense does before showing him the bus, but thats just me. One thing I am fairly certain and that is niether Tony Dungy, nor Bill Bellacheck would have won any superbowl with any of their teams with a Billick QB from the list above and that includes Dilfer and McNair (past his prime).
The QB doesn't have anything to do with his continually ridiculous play calls, poor clock management, and vanilla passing schemes. Although obviously any offense would look better with a Brady or Manning running things, it's painfully obvious that Billick is not a good offensive football coach.

Let's also remember he picked Boller, he wanted McNair, he helped choose almost every QB he had. He keeps guys in positions (Grbec should have been pulled in favor of Cunningham for that particular team and he'll stick with McNair when he should be benching him).

Remember... one playoff win in the last seven seasons.... Buh-bye

[ccbird]

Billick is stubborn man. He doesn't adjust his play calling for what kind of team he has. He also sticks with the older aging vets way way tooo long. Like Jamal Lewis. When the man couldn't get more than three yards a carry he kept him as a starter. Now with the quarterback. McNair is showing all the signs that he may be DONE and he won't pull him.

His career is full of these decisions.


Yeah, because he didn't decide to run the ball 60+% of the time in 2003 when we had beast Jamal and horrible QB's and WR's. Billick if anything has shown the ability to adjust his style for the team's benefit. He's always wanted to throw the ball all over the field and be identified as an offensive team but he adjusted and was successful in the early 2000's being a running and defensive minded team.



You simply have to have an above average QB to have a chance. Dilfer was completely the exception. He had one of the top 3 defenses of all time not only giving him great field position but scoring for him. Brad Johnson, Brady, Roethlisberger all had Pro Bowl caliber years the years they won and have had careers that prove they are above average QBs. Give Billick a good QB to work with and see if this team isn't a team that is a legit contender every year. Again, Billick has to take some blame for not choosing a good QB in free agency, through trade or the draft but it's not all his fault.

[Tony-OH]

I have to give the Billick supporters credit though, you guys are at least consistent in your multiple excuses. Face it, nine years of bad offense with one constant. It's time for a fresh start...

[ccbird]

I have to give the Billick supporters credit though, you guys are at least consistent in your multiple excuses. Face it, nine years of bad offense with one constant. It's time for a fresh start...

Sometimes it is needed to get a fresh face and new philosophy and I'm not totally convinced it isn't the right route to go. God knows Billick frustrates the hell out of me at times. I just know that there isn't going to be some drastic offensive improvement until we get a solid QB under center.


Billick is here next year unless we totally collapse. He has too much money left on his contract for one and two I don't think Bisciotti wants to make waves or is even convinced he can find someone better.

[66-70-83-??]

I have to give the Billick supporters credit though, you guys are at least consistent in your multiple excuses. Face it, nine years of bad offense with one constant. It's time for a fresh start...

And the Billick bashers are consistent in ignoring the big picture (wins) and focusing on a individual detail.

Billick is the head coach so he gets credit as well as blame.

Look at the defense. Look at his overall W/L record. There are very few that have been better since he has been here.

Billick may not be the best coach in the NFL, but he is surely much closer to the top than he is to the bottom of the pile.

If he doesn't make the playoffs this year he probably does go. But, he will not be unemployed for long.

[BaltimoreTerp]

If Billick goes, Ozzie better be going with him. That's all that matters.

Either he's Billick's lapdog or he's truly wanted everything Billick has wanted and received.

And if everyone notices, most of the cons being given are either also his pros (loyalty to his players, intellegence, cockiness) or directly relate to his handling of the offense (which should be removed from his duties as soon as possible).

[NewMarketSean]

If Billick goes, Ozzie better be going with him. That's all that matters.

Either he's Billick's lapdog or he's truly wanted everything Billick has wanted and received.

And if everyone notices, most of the cons being given are either also his pros (loyalty to his players, intellegence, cockiness) or directly relate to his handling of the offense (which should be removed from his duties as soon as possible).

I strongly disagree. Newsome has drafted awesome players for years. Thats a fact. He's one of the most renowned front office people in the league. Billick however has cost this team a chance at a win twice with questionable playcalling.

Billick needs to go first and if we're still where we are now in 3-5 years, you get rid of Newsome and start over.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I strongly disagree. Newsome has drafted awesome players for years. Thats a fact. He's one of the most renowned front office people in the league. Billick however has cost this team a chance at a win twice with questionable playcalling.

Billick needs to go first and if we're still where we are now in 3-5 years, you get rid of Newsome and start over.

Wow, two games over the course of eight-and-a-half years.

Plus, Ozzie is the one that hasn't given the team a quarterback, ready o-line help, depth in the secondary, etc. You could argue that we haven't had a completely successful first-round pick since Suggs in 2003 (though I wouldn't argue it) and that our second- and third-round picks since then have not been all that successful either (only Terry and Chester look to be long-term solutions).

You can't give Ozzie a pass for past success if you won't give Billick the same.

[TGO]

I strongly disagree. Newsome has drafted awesome players for years. Thats a fact. He's one of the most renowned front office people in the league. Billick however has cost this team a chance at a win twice with questionable playcalling.

Billick needs to go first and if we're still where we are now in 3-5 years, you get rid of Newsome and start over.

Newsome hasn't taken enough of the blame for the failures on offense, but I agree that he should stay. I think he has been led astray by trusting Billick on some decisions on offense (Billick being the "OFFENSIVE GURU" [TM] :rolleyes: ).

I would bring in a real offensive coordinator first and give Billick one more year.

[RayFink1e]

I honestly think i could run a better offense with a Madden playbook. The offense is so bad. I thought it cant be easy to call plays, but I still think i could do better.

This offense is the worst I have ever seen. There isnt even a reason for optimism like in other bad offenses. Its been a long time for Billick and he still hasnt put together an offense

[BaltimoreTerp]

Newsome hasn't taken enough of the blame for the failures on offense, but I agree that he should stay. I think he has been led astray by trusting Billick on some decisions on offense (Billick being the "OFFENSIVE GURU" [TM] :rolleyes: ).

I would bring in a real offensive coordinator first and give Billick one more year.

Of course, by "trademarked", you do mean by the media that saw all those points put up and so assumed it was all Billick's doing, because the coach always gets all the credit for the success and blame for the failure.

[glenn__davis]

the fact is he has not had nearly the personnel here that he had in Minnesot. The year the Vikes put up all those points, literally all 11 of their offensive starters could have gone to the Pro Bowl. It was absurd. I remember watching MNF when the Vikes got a 5 yard false start penalty. John Madden said, "They don't care, they'll just throw the ball 5 yards deeper," and they did.

I'd like to see what Billick could do with a game-changing WR.