Let's not lose sight of why we really lost today

[Sports Guy]

The refs were in the wrong at the end of the game but that's not why we lost..Here is why we lost:

1) 4 To's...Including allowing a defensive score...That was at least a 10 point swing.

2) Allowing them to run the ball.

3) Billick calling 2 passes when they had 2nd and 1 before the go ahead FG...Poor clock management there. I understand Boller was in a rhythm but that is still no reason to do that.

4) Allowing the Browns to go 24 yards in 16 seconds to set up the game tying FG...With that, you allowed an 18 yard completion...You could have given up a completion of anything up to about 14 yards...Anything beyond that put them in manageable FG range...That is just terrible.

5) On a 3rd and 10 in OT, you allow an 18 yard pass....You could have allowed anything under 10 yards and the Browns likely punt.....Then instead of holding them and forcing a 45+ yard FG, you allow the Browns to run the ball 4 times for 14 yards.

6) Ed Reed fields a punt at the 4 yard line...Stupid decision....The Ravens offense doesn't advance the ball, Koch has a poor punt and Cribbs is able to easily get a huge return.

7) Before the game tying and game winning FGs, you kick to Cribbs and not only do you do that, you don't tackle him and allow him to give the Browns great field position.

In other words, this was a team effort to lose the game....Just as it was a team effort to come back and give us a chance to win.

The refs pissed us off but make no mistake about it, the Ravens lost this game as a team.

[Hank Scorpio]

The refs were in the wrong at the end of the game but that's not why we lost..Here is why we lost:

1) 4 To's...Including allowing a defensive score...That was at least a 10 point swing.

2) Allowing them to run the ball.

3) Billick calling 2 passes when they had 2nd and 1 before the go ahead FG...Poor clock management there. I understand Boller was in a rhythm but that is still no reason to do that.

4) Allowing the Browns to go 24 yards in 16 seconds to set up the game tying FG...With that, you allowed an 18 yard completion...You could have given up a completion of anything up to about 14 yards...Anything beyond that put them in manageable FG range...That is just terrible.

5) On a 3rd and 10 in OT, you allow an 18 yard pass....You could have allowed anything under 10 yards and the Browns likely punt.....Then instead of holding them and forcing a 45+ yard FG, you allow the Browns to run the ball 4 times for 14 yards.

6) Ed Reed fields a punt at the 4 yard line...Stupid decision....The Ravens offense doesn't advance the ball, Koch has a poor punt and Cribbs is able to easily get a huge return.

7) Before the game tying and game winning FGs, you kick to Cribbs and not only do you do that, you don't tackle him and allow him to give the Browns great field position.

In other words, this was a team effort to lose the game....Just as it was a team effort to come back and give us a chance to win.

The refs pissed us off but make no mistake about it, the Ravens lost this game as a team.

Cleveland's average starting position - their 42 yard line.

And we kept on kicking it to Cribbs.... :confused:

At least this game was entertaining. I was disappointed in our receivers to be honest. The first pick was 1 on 1 coverage with Clayton & the safety. If we have a legit downfield threat (Edwards, Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald, Moss, Calvin Johnson, etc...etc...etc...), that's a catch. Clayton just whiffed there. Mason dropped a few passes, which he NEVER does. I thought Quinn played quite well considering the circumstances.

Lots of reasons we lost this game... I was surprised they ran the ball on us as much as they did. Our defense didn't really get that much pressure on D.A., and if you ask me, didn't play all that well.

[Sports Guy]

Cleveland's average starting position - their 42 yard line.

And we kept on kicking it to Cribbs.... :confused:

At least this game was entertaining. I was disappointed in our receivers to be honest. The first pick was 1 on 1 coverage with Clayton & the safety. If we have a legit downfield threat (Edwards, Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald, Moss, Calvin Johnson, etc...etc...etc...), that's a catch. Clayton just whiffed there. Mason dropped a few passes, which he NEVER does. I thought Quinn played quite well considering the circumstances.

Lots of reasons we lost this game... I was surprised they ran the ball on us as much as they did. Our defense didn't really get that much pressure on D.A., and if you ask me, didn't play all that well.

Agree with you here...The first pick was more on Clayton than Boller.

[BaltimoreTerp]

3) Billick calling 2 passes when they had 2nd and 1 before the go ahead FG...Poor clock management there. I understand Boller was in a rhythm but that is still no reason to do that.
I wasn't watching the game (I was following with Gamecast), but couldn't that have been to try to get a touchdown, or at least better field position for a kick?


6) Ed Reed fields a punt at the 4 yard line...Stupid decision....The Ravens offense doesn't advance the ball, Koch has a poor punt and Cribbs is able to easily get a huge return.
Reed is amazing when it comes to running balls back, but he obviously is not a return man. Just the number of times he tries to lateral the ball after almost seven years in the league shows it, and things like this are additional proof.


In other words, this was a team effort to lose the game....Just as it was a team effort to come back and give us a chance to win.

The refs pissed us off but make no mistake about it, the Ravens lost this game as a team.
Other then the couple comments above, I agree just about completely.

Any game that is won or lost is not won or lost on the last play, but on two dozen others throughout the four quarters (or more in OT).

[Hank Scorpio]

Agree with you here...The first pick was more on Clayton than Boller.

Also saw Darling give up on a pass in the endzone. He looked good at times today, but he doesn't do the little things very well.

Another big problem - picking up the blitz in the first half. McGahee was looking at lots of pictures between drives...

[Sports Guy]

I wasn't watching the game (I was following with Gamecast), but couldn't that have been to try to get a touchdown, or at least better field position for a kick?
Going for the TD with under 45 seconds left when we are in position for a FG? No way....Perhaps better field position for a kick..yes...But run it at least onmce there...Burn some time.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Going for the TD with under 45 seconds left when we are in position for a FG? No way....Perhaps better field position for a kick..yes...But run it at least onmce there...Burn some time.

But that is only if you are going for the field goal.

[ccbird]

Cleveland's average starting position - their 42 yard line.

And we kept on kicking it to Cribbs.... :confused:

At least this game was entertaining. I was disappointed in our receivers to be honest. The first pick was 1 on 1 coverage with Clayton & the safety. If we have a legit downfield threat (Edwards, Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald, Moss, Calvin Johnson, etc...etc...etc...), that's a catch. Clayton just whiffed there. Mason dropped a few passes, which he NEVER does. I thought Quinn played quite well considering the circumstances.

Lots of reasons we lost this game... I was surprised they ran the ball on us as much as they did. Our defense didn't really get that much pressure on D.A., and if you ask me, didn't play all that well.

Please watch it again and take note when Clayton accelerates past the guy near the end of the play and has to stop and try to come back for the ball. The ball was underthrown. Yes, maybe a good receiver has a better idea of where the ball is, stops his route and catches the ball or forces a pass interference but please stop with the blame on Clayton there. It is as much on Boller for the underthrow as it is on Clayton.

[ccbird]

And yes Billick messed up after we got to the 30 yard line on a 2nd and 1 with 30 sec left not to run the ball on 2nd or 3rd down. Especially on 2nd down. We are already in field goal range and if we get that extra yard we can run the clock all the way down and kick the ball with no time left. Granted you want to get closer than the 30 to kick it but most likely you are gonna get that yard on 2nd down. You can than quickly spike or call your last time out and run another play to try and pick up those yards. Billick certainly blew it there. Clev never should have got the ball back at the end of the game.

[AgentOrange]

Agree with you here...The first pick was more on Clayton than Boller.

Stop it. The first pick was 80% Boller. Clayton had up to 2 steps on that route. Yeah he could have came back to make a play and I agree it would have been nice to see him try, but you cant say that the pick was more on Clayton than Boller. I think Boller got too much air under that pass.

I think he overall played well today, and we didn't give up, but that first pass INT was on him.

[66-70-83-??]

Stop it. The first pick was 80% Boller. Clayton had up to 2 steps on that route. Yeah he could have came back to make a play and I agree it would have been nice to see him try, but you cant say that the pick was more on Clayton than Boller. I think Boller got too much air under that pass.

I think he overall played well today, and we didn't give up, but that first pass INT was on him.

No, he is right.

That pick was on Clayton.

Despite popular opinion- not even Manning or Brady can thread a perfect needle 40 yards down field very often.

WR's have to be playmakers too. They have to be able to track the deep ball and adjust. Watch McAlister or Reed. ;)

Not very often does the ball float into the WR's hands in stride without *any* adjustment on his part.

When Clayton realized that pass wasn't going to float into his hands- he became a spectator. He gave up. He didn't fight for the ball at all.

Boller didn't throw a great pass. But, Clayton did him no favors.

[AgentOrange]

No, he is right.

That pick was on Clayton.

Despite popular opinion- not even Manning or Brady can thread a perfect needle 40 yards down field very often.

WR's have to be playmakers too. They have to be able to track the deep ball and adjust. Watch McAlister or Reed. ;)

Not very often does the ball float into the WR's hands in stride without *any* adjustment on his part.

When Clayton realized that pass wasn't going to float into his hands- he became a spectator. He gave up. He didn't fight for the ball at all.

Boller didn't throw a great pass. But, Clayton did him no favors.

Ok, he didn't make any adjustment. He was 2 steps ahead of him already going in the other direction of the ball. I agree he should have made an effort on the ball, but it was severley under-thrown, probably by about 10 or so yards.

And we are blaming Clayton for this?

[NewMarketSean]

Agreed with the WR fighting for the ball thing. My friend mentioned it at the game. These guys have to get to the ball, not let the ball come right to them.

That aside, the defense blew this game. They're just not as good as they used to be. After seeing how rarely they pressure the QB, I think this defense is sorely AD.

[Sports Guy]

Stop it. The first pick was 80% Boller. Clayton had up to 2 steps on that route. Yeah he could have came back to make a play and I agree it would have been nice to see him try, but you cant say that the pick was more on Clayton than Boller. I think Boller got too much air under that pass.

I think he overall played well today, and we didn't give up, but that first pass INT was on him.

Boller threw it like 50-60 yards downfield, in the air....That ball is almost impossible to be 100% perfect on.

Your WR have to do something in that instance...Look at the Pats game earlier this year...Brady threw 2 bombs to Moss in the end zone...Neither ball was right there but Moss adjusted and did what he had to so that he could catch the ball....Clayton just kept running.

[The Wedge]

I was just about to mention Moss, because Mike and Mike were just showing the replays a few minutes ago, and I saw Moss make a couple of obvious adjustments to the passes.

[66-70-83-??]

Ok, he didn't make any adjustment. He was 2 steps ahead of him already going in the other direction of the ball. I agree he should have made an effort on the ball, but it was severley under-thrown, probably by about 10 or so yards.

And we are blaming Clayton for this?

The interception goes into Boller's column so "officially" he gets the blame.

But, it isn't black and white all the time. Clayton could have adjusted and at least made sure that the defender didnt come away with it.

"Severely underthrown" ? Please. :rolleyes: If that ball was "ten yards" underthrown- it easily falls to the turf.

[Hank Scorpio]

Please watch it again and take note when Clayton accelerates past the guy near the end of the play and has to stop and try to come back for the ball. The ball was underthrown. Yes, maybe a good receiver has a better idea of where the ball is, stops his route and catches the ball or forces a pass interference but please stop with the blame on Clayton there. It is as much on Boller for the underthrow as it is on Clayton.

Of course.

[AgentOrange]

The interception goes into Boller's column so "officially" he gets the blame.

But, it isn't black and white all the time. Clayton could have adjusted and at least made sure that the defender didnt come away with it.

"Severely underthrown" ? Please. :rolleyes: If that ball was "ten yards" underthrown- it easily falls to the turf.


He was in stride. He had to actually stop and GO BACK to the ball to even have a play on that.

If he stays on stride, by the time that ball lands, he would have been roughly 10 yards further up the field and made the catch in stride.

That, to me, is 10 yards underthrown.

[Hank Scorpio]

Stop it. The first pick was 80% Boller. Clayton had up to 2 steps on that route. Yeah he could have came back to make a play and I agree it would have been nice to see him try, but you cant say that the pick was more on Clayton than Boller. I think Boller got too much air under that pass.

I think he overall played well today, and we didn't give up, but that first pass INT was on him.

If you have one on one coverage with a safety with a receiver and your quarterback can't be confident to throw the ball up in the air and have his guy make a play for his team... that says a lot about your receiving corps.

[AgentOrange]

If you have one on one coverage with a safety with a receiver and your quarterback can't be confident to throw the ball up in the air and have his guy make a play for his team... that says a lot about your receiving corps.

How about we ask him to make a good throw on a play where the reciever is totally burning the coverage?

Just hit the man in stride, that is all I ask.

I agree with the people here that I feel that Clayton should have made some type of effort on the ball, but that is not the main reason it was intercepted.

[NewMarketSean]

How about we ask him to make a good throw on a play where the reciever is totally burning the coverage?

Just hit the man in stride, that is all I ask.

I agree with the people here that I feel that Clayton should have made some type of effort on the ball, but that is not the main reason it was intercepted.

That is BS. The ball may have been slightly underthrown but Clayton has to make a play for the ball even if he can't catch it, just to knock it down. He did nothing.

[AgentOrange]

That is BS. The ball may have been slightly underthrown but Clayton has to make a play for the ball even if he can't catch it, just to knock it down. He did nothing.

What is slightly underthrown? 10 yards?

I mean you guys are really missing the fact that he was in full sprint and he had to come to a complete stop and come back to the ball. That is not slightly underthrown in my book.

It was a bad play over all, but we are deflecting blame from Boller on this for reason's unknown to me.

[Hank Scorpio]

What is slightly underthrown? 10 yards?

I mean you guys are really missing the fact that he was in full sprint and he had to come to a complete stop and come back to the ball. That is not slightly underthrown in my book.

It was a bad play over all, but we are deflecting blame from Boller on this for reason's unknown to me.

All I'm saying is that when you have single cover with a safety, you throw the ball down the field every single time. This is what Derek Anderson does, if you watch him throw a deep ball. He throws it up, and they go up and get it. Credit Sean Jones - he wanted the ball more than Clayton did.

You have to give your guy a chance to make a play. Boller did that. Did he underthrow it? Yeah, it was a little underthrown... but better underthrown than overthrown. If you overthrow it, he has no chance of catching it. Ideally, you hit him in stride like he did Devard Darling in the 4th quarter. But this was a very different play/throw.

To watch that effort by Clayton and say it's 80% Boller's fault is just downright nutty, my man!

[Sports Guy]

Again, it wasn't a 30 or 40 yard throw...I think that ball went 60 yards in the air.

That is tough to be 100% on...He threw that ball well...Yes, it was slightly overthrown but many 50-60 yard passes will be. Clayton wasn't looking for the ball until it was too late.

The WR has to go get the ball...Clayton was wrong there....Better receivers make a play on that ball.

However, all that INT did was hurt Boller's numbers.....Basically, you look at it as a punt.

Better that he throws that pick than one of McNair's picks where he throws the ball 5 feet.

[MikeAD]

Again, it wasn't a 30 or 40 yard throw...I think that ball went 60 yards in the air.

That is tough to be 100% on...He threw that ball well...Yes, it was slightly overthrown but many 50-60 yard passes will be. Clayton wasn't looking for the ball until it was too late.

The WR has to go get the ball...Clayton was wrong there....Better receivers make a play on that ball.

However, all that INT did was hurt Boller's numbers.....Basically, you look at it as a punt.

Better that he throws that pick than one of McNair's picks where he throws the ball 5 feet.


Spot on! I'd rather see 2-3 of these a game then McNairs little BLIPS that end up either 6 points for the other team, or a starting field position in the Red Zone.

[Miller192]

Again, it wasn't a 30 or 40 yard throw...I think that ball went 60 yards in the air.

That is tough to be 100% on...He threw that ball well...Yes, it was slightly overthrown but many 50-60 yard passes will be. Clayton wasn't looking for the ball until it was too late.

The WR has to go get the ball...Clayton was wrong there....Better receivers make a play on that ball.

However, all that INT did was hurt Boller's numbers.....Basically, you look at it as a punt.

Better that he throws that pick than one of McNair's picks where he throws the ball 5 feet.

That's exactly how I looked at it. I'd rather take the chance downfield and if it's intercepted so what? It's just a long punt. You can make big plays down the field if you don't throw it there.

I also think that if you talked to every WR in the NFL, all that they'd ask is for the opportunity to make a play. Clayton had that opportunity.

Now was it underthrown? Sure. I don't think you can expect many QBs to be make that play after holding a clipboard for most of the season however.

[glenn__davis]

All I'm saying is that when you have single cover with a safety, you throw the ball down the field every single time. This is what Derek Anderson does, if you watch him throw a deep ball. He throws it up, and they go up and get it. Credit Sean Jones - he wanted the ball more than Clayton did.


I don't think you can say Jones wanted the ball more. He had a much better shot at catching it in the first place. That ball wasn't "slightly" underthrown. Clayton had a couple steps on his man and even after slowing down he still couldn't make a play on it. You could probably make an argument that he should've started tracking the ball earlier, I guess. And it is a very tough throw to make.

Either way, like others have said, that INT is not a big deal. It's basically like a punt and it spreads the defense out. I wish Friedgen would take a few more shots like that.

[Hank Scorpio]

I don't think you can say Jones wanted the ball more. He had a much better shot at catching it in the first place. That ball wasn't "slightly" underthrown. Clayton had a couple steps on his man and even after slowing down he still couldn't make a play on it. You could probably make an argument that he should've started tracking the ball earlier, I guess. And it is a very tough throw to make.

Either way, like others have said, that INT is not a big deal. It's basically like a punt and it spreads the defense out. I wish Friedgen would take a few more shots like that.

It's just disappointing that we don't have a physical receiver who can go up and fight for the ball.

[biggsy]

Again, it wasn't a 30 or 40 yard throw...I think that ball went 60 yards in the air..

Yeah, It was a pretty far throw. However, a good QB sees the single coverage earlier and throws the ball sooner and allows his WR to outrun the saftey and run underneath the ball. Not throw it 2 seconds too late and make him have to come to a complete stop and then come back and have to fight with a saftey for the damn ball. Any blame on Clayton is rediculious, the guy flat out beat his man by more then 2 steps (a HUGE amount in the NFL) and were putting the blame on him. Way to go Clayton, way to beat your man completely, what were you thinking.


That is tough to be 100% on...He threw that ball well...Yes, it was slightly overthrown but many 50-60 yard passes will be. Clayton wasn't looking for the ball until it was too late..

As I just said, that ball has to be away much sooner then it was thrown, if Boller sees Clayton one on one with a saftey the ball has to be out when Clayton is 25-30 YDs downfield and allow Clayton to outrun Jones and run underneath the pass in stride. Not when Clayton is already 35-40 Yds downfield where he has to fight with a much bigger saftey for the ball.



The WR has to go get the ball...Clayton was wrong there....Better receivers make a play on that ball..

No, bigger, physical WRs have a 50% chance at best to come down with that ball. Clayton is neither big or very strong for the NFL, you can't expect the man to win jump balls with safteys.



However, all that INT did was hurt Boller's numbers.....Basically, you look at it as a punt..

Agreed. I had no problem with it cause it was probably better then a punt with Cribbs back there on punt returns. However to put the blame on Clayton is just stupid.



Better that he throws that pick than one of McNair's picks where he throws the ball 5 feet.

ha, very true. I said in the beginning of the game that Boller was like 1 for 5 for -2 yds and an INT and a fumble. But I didn't know which was better, those numbers, or McNair who whould have been 8 for 9 for 4 yds and a fumble.


Spot on! I'd rather see 2-3 of these a game then McNairs little BLIPS that end up either 6 points for the other team, or a starting field position in the Red Zone.


How bout the "little blips" of Bollers in the redzone where instead of protecting the ball he lobs it 30 YDs in the air and has it returned for a TD the other way instead of getting at least a FG for your team ?


Now was it underthrown? Sure. I don't think you can expect many QBs to be make that play after holding a clipboard for most of the season however.

Except he's started 4 games this season, 3 prior to yesterday, and played in 2 other games. He has hardly been "holding the clipboard" for most of the season.


It's just disappointing that we don't have a physical receiver who can go up and fight for the ball.

We do, in fact we have 2 of them. Heap and Williams. Bad thing is, both were out with injuries yesterday.



Your WR have to do something in that instance...Look at the Pats game earlier this year...Brady threw 2 bombs to Moss in the end zone...Neither ball was right there but Moss adjusted and did what he had to so that he could catch the ball....Clayton just kept running.

This is what annoys me. Were talking about a WR who is hands down, without a doubt the most physically gifted WR to EVER play in the NFL. He's 6'4", 200 Lbs, runs a 4.2 40 and has a 40"+ vert along with the abilities to run precise routes and possibly the best hands in the NFL. And were comparing him to a 4th year pro that is a Derrick Mason clone. Moss caught those passes because he is just simply an amazing player. There is not another WR in the league that comes down with that pass as consistantly as Moss does. And your comparing Clayton to the greatest deep threat to ever enter the league. Thats whats beyond stupid here.



One last time, a QB has to see that match-up right away. As soon as he sees he has Clayton one on one with a saftey he lets it loose when he's only 25-30 Yds downfield and allows Clayton to run past the saftey and run underneath the ball. Not wait till he's 30-35 Yds downfield and expect him to win a jump ball with a bigger more phyisical player.

What annoys me even more is every single time Boller plays medicore or worse you see everyone that loves him giving 100000000000 excuses as to why he played that way. When are you people going to run out of excuses for the man ? He just simply can't cut it. For 3 and a half quarters he was horrid. He's lucky his defense kept him in the game the way they did so he could have a chance to redeem himself at the end. The only form of offense we had for the first 50 Mins yesterday was McGahee. If you think Boller played well at all yesterday then you need to take your Boller shades off for a second and rewatch the first 50 minutes of the game where he had a QB rating of somewhere around 15. At one point in the 3rd quarter it was actually down to 4. Thats not anywhere CLOSE to very well.

[NewMarketSean]

This is what annoys me. Were talking about a WR who is hands down, without a doubt the most physically gifted WR to EVER play in the NFL. He's 6'4", 200 Lbs, runs a 4.2 40 and has a 40"+ vert along with the abilities to run precise routes and possibly the best hands in the NFL. And were comparing him to a 4th year pro that is a Derrick Mason clone. Moss caught those passes because he is just simply an amazing player. There is not another WR in the league that comes down with that pass as consistantly as Moss does. And your comparing Clayton to the greatest deep threat to ever enter the league. Thats whats beyond stupid here.

So what are you saying, that Clayton, as well as our other WR's shouldn't fight for passes because they're not as good as Moss? That's beyond stupid if you ask me. If players adhered to your logic, only Moss and TO would fight for passes since they are the only WR's that are as good as each other. Any WR, whether he is Moss, TO or a guy on a practice squad should go up for the ball and fight for it, bat it down, or whatever is needed to catch the ball or avoid an INT. It's a fundamental part of the game. I never played football and I know that. A WR becomes a defender on an underthrown or overthrown pass that he can get his hands on but cant catch when the defender is right there.

[Miller192]

Except he's started 4 games this season, 3 prior to yesterday, and played in 2 other games. He has hardly been "holding the clipboard" for most of the season.

Well by my math, yesterday was week eleven and he started three games so guess what? He's been holding the clipboard for most of the season.

You can further my argument by finding some stats on the success of 60 yard passes this season. It's a low percentage play, the odds weren't in our favor or any other team's favor for that matter.

I am not saying Boller wasn't at fault. I am saying Boller threw a very deep ball that gave his receiver a chance to make a play. Ball underthrown, Clayton misplaying it....turnover Ravens.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Sounds to me, to use a mediocre but valid baseball analogy, that this is similar to the batter hitting the ball to centerfield, the fielder breaking straight back, running directly back, having the ball land well in front of him, and blaming th pitcher for throwing the pitch.

[AgentOrange]

Sounds to me, to use a mediocre but valid baseball analogy, that this is similar to the batter hitting the ball to centerfield, the fielder breaking straight back, running directly back, having the ball land well in front of him, and blaming th pitcher for throwing the pitch.


This no where close to a valid analogy.

[MP]

Sounds to me, to use a mediocre but valid baseball analogy, that this is similar to the batter hitting the ball to centerfield, the fielder breaking straight back, running directly back, having the ball land well in front of him, and blaming th pitcher for throwing the pitch.

So Clayton was running away from the line of scrimmage, not because he was running his route to where the ball should have been, but because of an error in judgment? Holy schmoley. A realistic baseball analogy would be an ugly throw from 3rd that skips into the 1st basemen, and the 1st basemen makes a seriously lame effort to pick it (and bail out the 3rd baseman)

So how about this.

Clayton did a crappy job to bail out Boller's crappy throw. End of story.

[Miller192]

To add to my reply, I am not advocating the Kyle Boller is a starting NFL QB. From what I have seen, he is probably a pretty good back-up. I also think that this team will need to look to the draft this year to find that franchise QB. He is however, getting a good chance to prove himself. And what a test it is, we are not talking about playing watered-down NFC opponents, were talking about some of the best teams in the NFL. If Kyle improves each week and solidifies his position, I still think we need to draft a QB. I would love to be in the position of the Browns right now.

However, I think despite my opinion, I can keep an open head to what's going on in a game. He threw a bomb that turned into an interception at their 20. That was probably the best field position, for us, all day.

[AgentOrange]

So what are you saying, that Clayton, as well as our other WR's shouldn't fight for passes because they're not as good as Moss? That's beyond stupid if you ask me. If players adhered to your logic, only Moss and TO would fight for passes since they are the only WR's that are as good as each other. Any WR, whether he is Moss, TO or a guy on a practice squad should go up for the ball and fight for it, bat it down, or whatever is needed to catch the ball or avoid an INT. It's a fundamental part of the game. I never played football and I know that. A WR becomes a defender on an underthrown or overthrown pass that he can get his hands on but cant catch when the defender is right there.

No, that is not what he is saying. He is basically saying that people are bringing up examples of players who come down with passes in those scenerios, but those WRs are some of the best to ever play the game.

He should have tried to knock it down, but if you have watched some of the games he has on many occasions acted as the CB. This is not a trend for Clayton, it was just an all around bad play that ended in a TO.

[AgentOrange]

So Clayton was running away from the line of scrimmage, not because he was running his route to where the ball should have been, but because of an error in judgment? Holy schmoley. A realistic baseball analogy would be an ugly throw from 3rd that skips into the 1st basemen, and the 1st basemen makes a seriously lame effort to pick it (and bail out the 3rd baseman)

So how about this.

Clayton did a crappy job to bail out Boller's crappy throw. End of story.

Circle gets the square!

[biggsy]

So what are you saying, that Clayton, as well as our other WR's shouldn't fight for passes because they're not as good as Moss? That's beyond stupid if you ask me. If players adhered to your logic, only Moss and TO would fight for passes since they are the only WR's that are as good as each other. Any WR, whether he is Moss, TO or a guy on a practice squad should go up for the ball and fight for it, bat it down, or whatever is needed to catch the ball or avoid an INT. It's a fundamental part of the game. I never played football and I know that. A WR becomes a defender on an underthrown or overthrown pass that he can get his hands on but cant catch when the defender is right there.


No, what I was saying is this. Moss comes down with Jump balls that no other WR in the NFL could. So why are we even bringing him up in a discussion with Clayton ? I'm sure Clayton is sorry he's not Randy F'n Moss. He was 5-10 yards away from where the ball was thrown in a dead sprint. I'm sorry he couldn't come to a complete stop, turn around and play CB on a Saftey on a poor pass. Any blame on Clayton just isn't right. That play was 80% on Boller and 20% on Clayton.

Should we blame Ogden for not being able to run down Brodney Pool on Bollers second INT too ?

[Miller192]

No, what I was saying is this. Moss comes down with Jump balls that no other WR in the NFL could. So why are we even bringing him up in a discussion with Clayton ? I'm sure Clayton is sorry he's not Randy F'n Moss. He was 5-10 yards away from where the ball was thrown in a dead sprint. I'm sorry he couldn't come to a complete stop, turn around and play CB on a Saftey on a poor pass. Any blame on Clayton just isn't right. That play was 80% on Boller and 20% on Clayton.
Should we blame Ogden for not being able to run down Brodney Pool on Bollers second INT too ?

Then why are you blaming him?

[biggsy]

Then why are you blaming him?

I'm sorry I worded that wrong. Here, putting the majority of the blame on Clayton just isn't right. Why are you focusing on small misquotes of mine instead of making more excuses for Boller anyway ?

[Miller192]

I'm sorry I worded that wrong. Here, putting the majority of the blame on Clayton just isn't right. Why are you focusing on small misquotes of mine instead of making more excuses for Boller anyway ?

I'm not the one that typed it, brother. You said he "ANY" criticism of Clayton is wrong but then blamed him for, by your calculations, 20% of the play.

I figured if I was responsible for a 20% loss at my company, I'd probably share in the blame.

I've ran out of excuses for Kyle Boller back in 2005, sorry. I'll see if I can come up some new ones ;)