Underrated Orioles starting pitchers

[Frobby]

The O's have had a lot of great starting pitchers in their history, but to me the one who is vastly underrated is Dave McNally. The man won 20+ games in 4 straight seasons, won more games in an Orioles uniform than any pitcher not named Palmer, and was just a consistent winner for the O's for more than a decade.

To me, I put McNally in 3rd place among O's starting pitchers, behind Palmer and Mussina.

[DuffMan]

The O's have had a lot of great starting pitchers in their history, but to me the one who is vastly underrated is Dave McNally. The man won 20+ games in 4 straight seasons, won more games in an Orioles uniform than any pitcher not named Palmer, and was just a consistent winner for the O's for more than a decade.

To me, I put McNally in 3rd place among O's starting pitchers, behind Palmer and Mussina.

McNally 4 20+ win seasons, Mussina 0 20+ win seasons.

McNally>Mussina

[NewMarketSean]

Gotta put McNally ahead of Mussina.

[NCRaven]

Wins are a meaningless stat! Plenty of guys had better BB/K ratios. What was his Fly Ball to Ground Ball rate? Jack Cust probably had better stats when he pitched in American Legion ball.

[wildcard]

I enjoyed watching McNally pitch. He was competitive. A bulldog. I would put him 2nd to Palmer also.

[Sonny76]

Nobody had the pitch location Dave McNally did. If you had a hole...he found it!

[BRob51]

My dad who grew up in the 60's and 70's said McNally was the ace, ahead of Palmer. So McNally has to be atleast second, Mussina is some trash, and a traitor. Least favorite pitcher on the Yankees

[JTrea81]

Don't forget about the grand slam he hit in the 1970 WS. The only pitcher ever to do that. I saw the bat he hit it with in Cooperstown...

[66-70-83-??]

Don't forget about the grand slam he hit in the 1970 WS. The only pitcher ever to do that. I saw the bat he hit it with in Cooperstown...

I saw the bat he hit it with too.........while he was swinging it from a 3rd base box seat at Memorial. :D

[DuffMan]

My dad who grew up in the 60's and 70's said McNally was the ace, ahead of Palmer. So McNally has to be atleast second, Mussina is some trash, and a traitor. Least favorite pitcher on the Yankees

The fact that he now pitches for the Yankees should have no influence on where you rank him among greatest Orioles pitchers.

[MikeAD]

The fact that he now pitches for the Yankees should have no influence on where you rank him among greatest Orioles pitchers.

Yeah but Mussina could never pitch ahead of Palmer :D

McNally was amazing, and I only know this from family stories and watching old games, I think everything points to McNally over Mussina on any Orioles or all-time list.

[ChrisP]

Mussina is some trash, and a traitor.

Schools must be out today. Totally uncalled for comment.

[Night Owl]

I think you have got to put Mike Cuellar ahead of Mike Mussina also.

[66-70-83-??]

He swung the bat from a 3rd base box seat and still hit a Grand Slam? Wow, an impressive feat just became that much more impressive. :p

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I was sitting in the family room watching when he hit it. As I recall, McNally was an oddity in that he batted right handed even though he threw left handed.

Yes, he did.

Just like Randy Johnson, Rickey Henderson, and my daughter. :D

[mojmann]

I have an interesting story about McNally, sort-of.

Back in 2001, I went fly-fishing in Montana, and I was staying in these little cabins just outside Yellowstone Park. I was sitting on the porch one night, when the guy who was staying in the cabin next door noticed my Oriole cap.

He asked me if I was an Orioles fan, and he said, "you probably have heard of my best friend -- Dave McNally."

As it turns out, this guy grew up with McNally in another city in Montana (Missoula, I think?) and they still hung out together quite a bit -- although Dave, at that time, was pretty sick with cancer. As a matter of fact, the guy told me he was scheduled to come on the fishing trip but couldn't.

So the whole week he told me all sorts of McNally stories, from his days in American Legion ball and such. He told me what a hero McNally was in Montana when he was pitching for those great Oriole teams.

It was pretty cool.

[Night Owl]

In 1970 I drove a truck for a diaper service in Baltimore and Dave McNally and Ted Hendricks of the Colts were my customers. Dave McNally was always friendly when I dealt with him. He in my opinion deserves to be in the Orioles Hall of Fame.

[Frobby]

In 1970 I drove a truck for a diaper service in Baltimore and Dave McNally and Ted Hendricks of the Colts were my customers. Dave McNally was always friendly when I dealt with him. He in my opinion deserves to be in the Orioles Hall of Fame.

He was the third member inducted, after Frank and Brooks Robinson, in 1978.

http://www.orioleadvocates.org/orioleshof_year.html

[Elbren]

Yes, he did.

Just like Randy Johnson, Rickey Henderson, and my daughter. :D

Are you implying that McNally, Johnson and Henderson all hit like little girls? :p :D

[Leitch]

I don't think McNally had even close to the peak that Mussina had, and I also don't think he's that underrated.

Context, people. Go to his baseball-reference page and click that little red link that says Neutralize

[furryburres]

Well, if you include the fact that Mussina only spent 9 years here, while Mcnally toiled for the O's for 15 years. Also, who could forget when he and Don Drysdale were battling each other with four-hitters... My bro was at that game.

[jiminnj]

McNally has to be ahead of Mussina. McNally had 184 wins as an O while Mussina had 147 I think. He was the ace of the staff for many years, the real glory years.

My favorite McNally game was the second game of the 1969 playoffs against Minnesota. He battled Jim Perry. The Os won the game in the bottom of the 11th, 1-0. A complete game 3 hitter by McNally.

[Leitch]

McNally has to be ahead of Mussina. McNally had 184 wins as an O while Mussina had 147 I think. He was the ace of the staff for many years, the real glory years.

My favorite McNally game was the second game of the 1969 playoffs against Minnesota. He battled Jim Perry. The Os won the game in the bottom of the 11th, 1-0. A complete game 3 hitter by McNally.

McNally had almost 100 more starts with the Orioles than Mussina. McNally played on a lot of really good teams, including one of the best teams in the expansion era, while Mussina played on a two good teams and a lot of crappy ones. There were seasons in which McNally made 40+ starts. It's a different era, and that's not even counting the fact that Wins and Losses are just about the worst way ever to evaluate a pitcher.

[O'sfan667083]

mcnally is definetly better than mussina

[Night Owl]

And so was Mike Cuellar

[Roy Firestone]

The O's have had a lot of great starting pitchers in their history, but to me the one who is vastly underrated is Dave McNally. The man won 20+ games in 4 straight seasons, won more games in an Orioles uniform than any pitcher not named Palmer, and was just a consistent winner for the O's for more than a decade.

To me, I put McNally in 3rd place among O's starting pitchers, behind Palmer and Mussina.

According to an interview with Etchebarren recently, Dave Mcnally was THE best pitcher Etchebarren ever caught. And Etch caught Palmer, Cuellar, Nolan Ryan, Frank Tanana and 20 game winners Pat Dobson and Mike Caldwell.I thought Mcnally was the brains behind the whole rotation.He reminded me alot of Glavine now.Smart, thorough and calm.He taught alot about pitching to the smartest pitcher I ever knew..Jim Palmer.

[Roy Firestone]

I have an interesting story about McNally, sort-of.

Back in 2001, I went fly-fishing in Montana, and I was staying in these little cabins just outside Yellowstone Park. I was sitting on the porch one night, when the guy who was staying in the cabin next door noticed my Oriole cap.

He asked me if I was an Orioles fan, and he said, "you probably have heard of my best friend -- Dave McNally."

As it turns out, this guy grew up with McNally in another city in Montana (Missoula, I think?) and they still hung out together quite a bit -- although Dave, at that time, was pretty sick with cancer. As a matter of fact, the guy told me he was scheduled to come on the fishing trip but couldn't.

So the whole week he told me all sorts of McNally stories, from his days in American Legion ball and such. He told me what a hero McNally was in Montana when he was pitching for those great Oriole teams.

It was pretty cool.
Dave Mcnally's best friend in childhood was another Billings resident....Brent Musberger!!!!Brent told me years ago what a great guy Mac ws and how much fun they had as kids in high school.

[The Blade]

Growing up, McNally was one of my favorite O's, next to Brooks. Winning the WS game in 66 and the 17 game win streak are memories that I will keep for a lifetime. I hope that our current pitchers will someday match his success.

[RShack]

He not only won 20 games 4 times, he did it 4 consecutive years.

That's hard to do. I don't care who you are, or what team you play for. That's just hard to do, no matter how you look at it.

You can be an extra-special guy and never do it. Lotsa reasons for that. But I don't think you can do it without being extra-special. If you don't think so, then please look at this list and tell me which guys are the imposters who weren't extra-special guys, OK?


Most Consecutive
20-Win Seasons
(Since 1900)

No. Pitcher Years
12 Christy Mathewson 1903-1914
10 Walter Johnson 1910-1919
7 Lefty Grove 1927-1933
6 Three Finger Brown 1906-1911
6 Ferguson Jenkins 1967-1972
6 Joe McGinnity 1901-1906
6 Robin Roberts 1950-1955
6 Warren Spahn 1956-1961
5 Grover Alexander 1913-1917
5 Carl Hubbell 1933-1937
5 Catfish Hunter 1971-1975
4 Start Coveleski 1918-1921
4 Dizzy Dean 1933-1936
4 Wes Ferrell 1929-1932
4 Addie Joss 1905-1908
4 Dave McNally 1968-1971
4 Jim Palmer 1970-1973
4 Jim Palmer 1975-1978
4 Eddie Plank 1902-1905
4 Red Ruffing 1936-1939
4 Urban Shocker 1920-1923
4 Dave Stewart 1987-1990
4 Vic Willis 1906-1909
4 Cy Young 1901-1904

ps: Some of the really old guys, I don't know much about. But some of them I sure do ;-)

pps: Is "Urban Shocker" a great baseball name or what?

[Flosman]

He not only won 20 games 4 times, he did it 4 consecutive years.

That's hard to do. I don't care who you are, or what team you play for. That's just hard to do, no matter how you look at it.

If you don't think so, then please look at this list and tell me which guys are the imposters who weren't extra-special guys, OK?


Most Consecutive
20-Win Seasons
(Since 1900)

No. Pitcher Years
12 Christy Mathewson 1903-1914
10 Walter Johnson 1910-1919
7 Lefty Grove 1927-1933
6 Three Finger Brown 1906-1911
6 Ferguson Jenkins 1967-1972
6 Joe McGinnity 1901-1906
6 Robin Roberts 1950-1955
6 Warren Spahn 1956-1961
5 Grover Alexander 1913-1917
5 Carl Hubbell 1933-1937
5 Catfish Hunter 1971-1975
4 Start Coveleski 1918-1921
4 Dizzy Dean 1933-1936
4 Wes Ferrell 1929-1932
4 Addie Joss 1905-1908
4 Dave McNally 1968-1971
4 Jim Palmer 1970-1973
4 Jim Palmer 1975-1978
4 Eddie Plank 1902-1905
4 Red Ruffing 1936-1939
4 Urban Shocker 1920-1923
4 Dave Stewart 1987-1990
4 Vic Willis 1906-1909
4 Cy Young 1901-1904

ps: Some of the really old guys, I don't know much about. But some of them I sure do ;-)

pps: Is "Urban Shocker" a great baseball name or what?

He must of went by a nickname. Because it would be highly unlikely that a guy with a name like Urban would ever have real success at the ML level. Its not as bad has say a Hayden but it is pretty close.:D

[mojmann]

Dave Mcnally's best friend in childhood was another Billings resident....Brent Musberger!!!!Brent told me years ago what a great guy Mac ws and how much fun they had as kids in high school.

Yes, Billings, not Missoula! Thanks, Roy.

My favorite quote from McNally was describing a conversation he had with an Expos team doctor in 1975 after an examination of his arm:

"He told me, 'If you were a racehorse, I'd shoot you.' "

[Leitch]

He not only won 20 games 4 times, he did it 4 consecutive years.

That's hard to do. I don't care who you are, or what team you play for. That's just hard to do, no matter how you look at it.

I never said McNally wasn't a very good pitcher or extra special or whatever flowery adjectives you prefer to attach. I'm saying that McNally wasn't anywhere near as good as Mussina, who is at the end of a Hall of Fame career.

The only edge McNally has on Mussina is warm, fuzzy memories and World Series Rings. I just don't think he's that underrated and I certainly don't think he's the second best pitcher this team has ever seen.

[RShack]

I just don't think he's that underrated and I certainly don't think he's the second best pitcher this team has ever seen.
We can disagree, that's fine ;-)

[Boy Howdy]

He must of went by a nickname. Because it would be highly unlikely that a guy with a name like Urban would ever have real success at the ML level. Its not as bad has say a Hayden but it is pretty close.:D

Urban Shocker was born Urbain Jacques Shockcor on 8/22/1890 in Cleveland.

Dave McNally is the second greatest Orioles pitcher ever. Mike Mussina has already had a better major league career, but when you're talking about Baltimore Orioles, McNally trails only Jim Palmer.

"Dave (McNally) was an unbelievable competitor. He did it with cunning and intelligence. He loved to set you up with a change, fool you with that tremendous curve and then throw the fastball by you. Plus, he was 100% gentleman. He was the kind of guy you wanted your son to be." - Hall of Famer Earl Weaver

[Frobby]

I never said McNally wasn't a very good pitcher or extra special or whatever flowery adjectives you prefer to attach. I'm saying that McNally wasn't anywhere near as good as Mussina, who is at the end of a Hall of Fame career.

The only edge McNally has on Mussina is warm, fuzzy memories and World Series Rings. I just don't think he's that underrated and I certainly don't think he's the second best pitcher this team has ever seen.

I would agree that Mussina was better. Still, McNally was damned good and yes he's underrated. You didn't have the pleasure of seeing him pitch, but I did.

[Moose Milligan]

Aside from McNally, who else?

[Boy Howdy]

Aside from McNally, who else?

I think Milt Pappas often gets underrated. He was a borderline Hall of Famer for his whole career, and the first man to win 100 games in an Orioles uniform.

The late Steve Barber had some very good years here, and nearly won 100 for the O's also.

Chuck Estrada had some awesome hits per innings pitched numbers in winning 33 games his first two years, but arm problems got to him.

Connie Johnson is a personal favorite. The ex-Negro Leaguer was already 33 when the O's got him in a trade from the White Sox, but he pitched very well and went 29-30 in 2 1/2 years for some bad Orioles teams.

All of the above guys pitched here before I was born. I think Flanagan-McGregor-Boddicker and even Dennis Martinez are underrated by many for their time in Baltimore.

[mefogus]

Mark Williamson?

-m

[Boy Howdy]

Mark Williamson?

-m

Mark Williamson was a pretty good pitcher, quite possibly underrated, but he only started 15 games in his career:

1-8, 4.67 ERA as a starter.

Incidentally, the only game Williamson won as a starter snapped the Orioles 21-game losing streak to start the 1988 season.

[RShack]

Incidentally, the only game Williamson won as a starter snapped the Orioles 21-game losing streak to start the 1988 season.
That's some serious trivia, right there. The only single start he won, and it was that one. There should be a plaque somewhere. (I'd give you more rep for that, but it won't let me... )

[mikezpen]

McNally is definitely ahead of Mussina. He was also a big game pitcher, and I never though Mussina was.

Mike Cuellar never got the props he deserved either; he also had four 20-game seasons. Junkballing lefty w/a great screwball that murdered right-handed batters.You'd watch him pitch that slow stuff, see it float up there and swear that anybody could hit the guy-but they rarely did.I loved to watch him pitch.

One manager-I believe Cleveland's-figured him out though.He started about 7 left-handed batters against him one night. That took away the screwball, and and they knocked Cuellar out of the box.