2007 McNair- Boller comparison

[ccbird]

Considering the Boller-McNair debate that raged for a good portion of the first half of the year I figured comparing the two with virtually equal games played and pass attempts and would be interesting.

McNair:

CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT FUM LOST
133 205 1113 64.9 5.43 30 2 4 11 73.9 8 7


Boller:

CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT FUM LOST
124 208 1242 59.6 5.97 47 5 5 16 74.6 4 3



So by the numbers Boller has been a little better but when you got a QB who played as bad as McNair did slightly better doesn't cut the mustard. Of note to me is that both QB's have put up well below league average numbers in IMO the two most indicative QB catagories: QB rating and YPA.


It's not gonna happen, but I'd love to see how close to these numbers Troy Smith would get if he got as many pass attempts as these two. I'm willing to bet that he wouldn't be that much worse, especially if he played the relatively weak schedule that both McNair and Boller has played to this point.

[NewMarketSean]

The only difference between Boller and McNair right now is their arms. Boller can make passes that McNair can't anymore and can stretch the field by throwing deep. However he is still not accurate enough to be much of an improvement over McNair.

The biggest problem with the offense though, is the OL. When Boller has virtually no time to throw, he's not going to be very good.

[Mackus]

Boller is clearly better than McNair at this point, even if the some of the stats don't exactly bear that out, its obvious to anybody with eyes.

That said, Boller hasn't played particularly well. He's looked good at times, but also continued to look lost at times. He's certainly not showing that he's the QB of the future here, at least as more than a capable backup.

The YPA is what really confuses me though. I thought that once Boller was in they'd go downfield more, but they still are throwing those dumpoff and curl routes more than anything else. A lot of that blame/confusion needs to go to Billick rather than Boller. Boller can only make the throws Billick tells him to, and they definitely need to ggo downfield (even just 10-20 yds) much more often.

[Burg]

Boller is clearly better than McNair at this point, even if the some of the stats don't exactly bear that out, its obvious to anybody with eyes.

That said, Boller hasn't played particularly well. He's looked good at times, but also continued to look lost at times. He's certainly not showing that he's the QB of the future here, at least as more than a capable backup.

The YPA is what really confuses me though. I thought that once Boller was in they'd go downfield more, but they still are throwing those dumpoff and curl routes more than anything else. A lot of that blame/confusion needs to go to Billick rather than Boller. Boller can only make the throws Billick tells him to, and they definitely need to ggo downfield (even just 10-20 yds) much more often.

It's hard to go downfield when you can't pass protect. From what I've seen to date, our pass protection is horrid.

[Miller192]

It's hard to go downfield when you can't pass protect. From what I've seen to date, our pass protection is horrid.

Pretty much. Our downfield passes are turning into hail marys.

[ccbird]

We are attempting longer throws with Boller. They may not be the 40 or 50 yard bombs but we are throwing more 15-20 yard routes. The problem is Boller is not consistantly accurate on anything over 15 yards and locks on to one receiver too much. When that receiver isn't open it results in him dumping down to a RB or him taking off and running.

The Oline is not great at pass blocking but they aren't horrible either. Actually, when they have to handle 4 or 5 guys they do a pretty good job, but they aren't great at picking up blitzes. A good QB can help out by making good line reads, audibling and getting the ball out quick. Boller doesn't read and audible well at all or move around in the pocket well which makes the line look worse than they are. When we had a QB last year who got the ball out quick and moved well in the pocket we gave up the 2nd least amount of sacks in the league. Now I will admit that last year McNair made the line look better than they were and i've said that before but the line play isn't that much different than last year.

[NewMarketSean]

The "locking onto one WR" thing is old to me. He doesn't do this as much as he used to. If anything he stands in the pocket too long looking across the field to see who is open, and usually no one is. Yesterday I saw him continuously check off and find no one which usually resulted in a sack. So I guess your damned if you do and damned if you don't.

One thing is for sure though... like the Orioles need to rebuild their organization through scouting and player development, the Ravens need to address the OL. It's horrible and it's been horrible for years. Get it fixed and then worry about who you've got behind it throwing passes. No one and I mean NO ONE would be successful behind this OL.

Couple that with the playcalling and you've got a recipe for disaster.

[Hank Scorpio]

Biggest differences from last year, in no particular order.

1. Injuries

2. Lack of pressure on the opposing QB

3. Pass protection

4. Turnover margin

These things coupled with the fact that most of our team is relatively young or relatively old translate to this : The Ravens are just not a very good football team.

[ccbird]

The "locking onto one WR" thing is old to me. He doesn't do this as much as he used to. If anything he stands in the pocket too long looking across the field to see who is open, and usually no one is. Yesterday I saw him continuously check off and find no one which usually resulted in a sack. So I guess your damned if you do and damned if you don't.

One thing is for sure though... like the Orioles need to rebuild their organization through scouting and player development, the Ravens need to address the OL. It's horrible and it's been horrible for years. Get it fixed and then worry about who you've got behind it throwing passes. No one and I mean NO ONE would be successful behind this OL.

Couple that with the playcalling and you've got a recipe for disaster.

He doesn't progress through reads well at all. You can totally see him panic once his 1st read isn't there. I can't really disagree with you more on this point.



As far as the Oline, again they aren't a great pass blocking unit but not anywhere near the worst in the league or even bad overall, probably average or just below. The good thing is they are run blocking much better this year and are young and have good upside. I love the guards in Grubbs and Brown. Both could be future Pro Bowlers. The tackles are concerning but there is no doubt Terry is much better on the left side than the right. Yanda has played fairly well for a rookie and while it's debateable if he'll stay at RT I think he actually has more upside than any RT we've had since the early Orlando Brown days circa 1996-97. Let's not forget Gaither who is a beast in stature and while still raw has probably the best upside of them all. Now the one weak spot which is center. Too much pressure comes up the middle on us and it is almost always on Flynn or Chester. Both are below average and Chester for all the world is looking like a bust at this point. The good thing is Yanda is versatile and can play guard so it's possible if Chester is a bust we can be all right with Terry, Grubbs, Brown, Yanda, and Gaither from left to right. The one thing about a OL is they have to work together and form chemisty. This OL is very young and will hopefully be getting comfortable working together. I expect this group to keep progressing and be a strenth in a few years. Ozzie addressed the Oline the last 3 years in the draft, something he was criticized for not doing for a long time. You got to give these guys some time together, the talent is there.

[ccbird]

Well he only has time to make one read, so I would panic too if my #1 guy isn't open because it means "OH SH1T, I'm getting sacked!"

Fumble.

There are plenty of times where he has time to progress through reads and either holds the ball too long while having happy feat and patting the ball a million times or puts his head down and takes off running. Just like there are times when his line does a piss poor job and he has no time and just like there are times when there is a little pressure and he could buy himself more time by stepping into the pocket or side stepping it, two things he rarely ever does. Boller doesn't help himself at all when it comes to pressure. He doesn't make line calls or audibles and he has a horrible pocket pressence. Just like McNair made the Oline look better than they were last year, Boller makes them look worse than they are when he is back there.

[NewMarketSean]

There are plenty of times where he has time to progress through reads and either holds the ball too long while having happy feat and patting the ball a million times or puts his head down and takes off running. Just like there are times when his line does a piss poor job and he has no time and just like there are times when there is a little pressure and he could buy himself more time by stepping into the pocket or side stepping it, two things he rarely ever does. Boller doesn't help himself at all when it comes to pressure. He doesn't make line calls or audibles and he has a horrible pocket pressence. Just like McNair made the Oline look better than they were last year, Boller makes them look worse than they are when he is back there.

McNair made them look pretty bad too. Just face it, they're bad. They might get better, but they are bad now. No way to debate that. Nothing is going to get any better until the OL gets better, whether it's Boller or Brady back there.

Whether or not the OL will get better remains to be seen. I just wouldn't waste a lot of time waiting for it to happen since we've been waiting for oh, say... 7 years now for one that can protect the QB.

[ccbird]

McNair made them look pretty bad too. Just face it, they're bad. They might get better, but they are bad now. No way to debate that. Nothing is going to get any better until the OL gets better, whether it's Boller or Brady back there.

Whether or not the OL will get better remains to be seen. I just wouldn't waste a lot of time waiting for it to happen since we've been waiting for oh, say... 7 years now for one that can protect the QB.

McNair made them look great last year, What was it like 14 sacks all year. And it's not like this line is much different except for Yanda and Terry at RT compared to Pashos. This year with McNair being hurt he couldn't move effectively in the pocket. Also it seems teams are blitzing more this year which is obviously going to give us less time and I've already said that picking up blitzes was one of their weaknesses. It makes it even that much more important to have a QB that can make line reads, call audibles and get the ball out quick. Kinda hard to make teams stop blitzing you when they don't have any fear of a QB burning them.

[ccbird]

Biggest differences from last year, in no particular order.

1. Injuries

2. Lack of pressure on the opposing QB

3. Pass protection

4. Turnover margin

These things coupled with the fact that most of our team is relatively young or relatively old translate to this : The Ravens are just not a very good football team.

Not going to put words in your mouth but considering this was a QB centered thread are you implying the QB play hasn't been a problem and contributed to our poor record??

[NewMarketSean]

Not going to put words in your mouth but considering this was a QB centered thread are you implying the QB play hasn't been a problem and contributed to our poor record??

Well, if those things listed are taken care of, we are a winning team right now without the QB play addressed. And the Turnover Margin part of it would affect the QB play. It means less fumbles and INT's from McNair and Boller.

But we don't need Peyton Manning to be a good team. We just need a good ball protector to lead the offense. Look at Garrard in JAX.

[biggsy]

The O-line will be fine. As it was said earlier in this thread, when teams only bring 4 or 5 they give whoever the QB is a great amount of time. They're troubles come in blitz pick-up. Alot of that has to do with youth and inexperience all along the line from Brown to Grubbs to Terry and Chester when he's in there. It's going to be just like grooming a rookie QB with this O-line. They're gonna take they're lumps early but in the long run the experience will pay off. Brown is already a monster and Grubbs is looking the same. As long as Gaither and Yanda pan out and live up to at least 75% of they're potential our O-line will be in amazing condition for the next 8-10 years.

The real problem is finding someone worth anything to play behind it. It may sound kind of bad but I'm glad we have a rough schedule to end the year. The way this team looks we are gonna be lucky to get the 1 win against Miami. And the more we lose the higher we pick and the higher the chances are that we land a stud prospect. And honestly, with as deep a QB class as they're is this year I could easily see Ozzie either trade down for a future 1st rounder or take a player (depending on the # we pick at) thats a flat out stud such as McFadden and taking a good QB prospect in the 2nd or 3rd round. Either way it's looking like we have a great chance to pick up Brian Brohm, Matt Ryan, Colt Brennan or Andre Woodson.

[Hank Scorpio]

The O-line will be fine. As it was said earlier in this thread, when teams only bring 4 or 5 they give whoever the QB is a great amount of time. They're troubles come in blitz pick-up. Alot of that has to do with youth and inexperience all along the line from Brown to Grubbs to Terry and Chester when he's in there. It's going to be just like grooming a rookie QB with this O-line. They're gonna take they're lumps early but in the long run the experience will pay off. Brown is already a monster and Grubbs is looking the same. As long as Gaither and Yanda pan out and live up to at least 75% of they're potential our O-line will be in amazing condition for the next 8-10 years.

The real problem is finding someone worth anything to play behind it. It may sound kind of bad but I'm glad we have a rough schedule to end the year. The way this team looks we are gonna be lucky to get the 1 win against Miami. And the more we lose the higher we pick and the higher the chances are that we land a stud prospect. And honestly, with as deep a QB class as they're is this year I could easily see Ozzie either trade down for a future 1st rounder or take a player (depending on the # we pick at) thats a flat out stud such as McFadden and taking a good QB prospect in the 2nd or 3rd round. Either way it's looking like we have a great chance to pick up Brian Brohm, Matt Ryan, Colt Brennan or Andre Woodson.

McGahee and La'Ron McLain have both been sub-par in picking up blitzes and trotting out practice squad tight ends really hurts us as well.

Our offensive line should improve going forward. What we're seeing right now is a learning process. They're not "fine" now. It's painful to watch and it's painful to play behind if you're the quarterback of this team.

[NewMarketSean]

As the OL gets better the QB gets better too. It's hand in hand. I agree, draft a QB with the high draft pick we're bound to get this year, but always remember, the OL play directly relates to the QB play. Not saying Boller is the QB we need to lead us into the playoffs, but I do expect him to play better once he gets an OL that can protect him.

[Hank Scorpio]

As the OL gets better the QB gets better too. It's hand in hand. I agree, draft a QB with the high draft pick we're bound to get this year, but always remember, the OL play directly relates to the QB play. Not saying Boller is the QB we need to lead us into the playoffs, but I do expect him to play better once he gets an OL that can protect him.

As would McNair.

I wonder if there's a website that lists how we stack up in terms of QB hurries and hits as well as sacks. That would be a telling stat.

[Hank Scorpio]

McGahee and La'Ron McLain have both been sub-par in picking up blitzes and trotting out practice squad tight ends really hurts us as well.

Our offensive line should improve going forward. What we're seeing right now is a learning process. They're not "fine" now. It's painful to watch and it's painful to play behind if you're the quarterback of this team.

What annoys me about Boller is that he never senses the blitz. You never see him check a play at the line of scrimmage, even when it's made quite obvious that someone's coming.

[NewMarketSean]

What annoys me about Boller is that he never senses the blitz. You never see him check a play at the line of scrimmage, even when it's made quite obvious that someone's coming.

To me that says more about Billick than it does Boller.

[Hank Scorpio]

To me that says more about Billick than it does Boller.

Right... Fassel/Neuheisel/Billick.

There is definitely an issue with the coaching of quarterbacks.

[ccbird]

To me that says more about Billick than it does Boller.

How?? Billick can't talk in Bollers ear when he gets to the line of scrimmage and change the play because they initial playcall isn't going to work. The Ravens have hot routes and audibles and the Qb has the right to change a play at the line if need be. Hot routes and audibles are QB 101 I mean I know some of you wanna bash Billick at all costs but I'm pretty sure he has gone over that numerous times with Kyle. It comes back to Boller just not being smart or at least not QB smart and his lack of awareness.

[ccbird]

As would McNair.

I wonder if there's a website that lists how we stack up in terms of QB hurries and hits as well as sacks. That would be a telling stat.

I'd be willing to bet we aren't at the bottom. Anyway, again a QB can play a big part in helping himself with pressure by doing little things himself. McNair was great at it last year, not so much this year and Boller has always been bad. It's not like we are letting teams rush 4 guys and allowing pressure, there are some teams out there that struggle stopping just the front four.

[Hank Scorpio]

I'd be willing to bet we aren't at the bottom. Anyway, again a QB can play a big part in helping himself with pressure by doing little things himself. McNair was great at it last year, not so much this year and Boller has always been bad. It's not like we are letting teams rush 4 guys and allowing pressure, there are some teams out there that struggle stopping just the front four.

Maybe not the bottom, but I can promise you we're at least 20 spots worse than we were last year.

I know it makes some folks' blood boil, and I'm not trying to incite a riot, but if you ask those who have played the game at it's highest level, almost to a man they will tell you that too much blame and too much credit is given to the quarterback position.

We need a scapegoat as fans. Almost everytime in the NFL it's the quarterback.

[ccbird]

Maybe not the bottom, but I can promise you we're at least 20 spots worse than we were last year.

I know it makes some folks' blood boil, and I'm not trying to incite a riot, but if you ask those who have played the game at it's highest level, almost to a man they will tell you that too much blame and too much credit is given to the quarterback position.
We need a scapegoat as fans. Almost everytime in the NFL it's the quarterback.

I agree, football is the ultimate team game. However, it's also undoubtedly the most important position on the field and maybe in all of sports.

[NewMarketSean]

I'd be willing to bet we aren't at the bottom. Anyway, again a QB can play a big part in helping himself with pressure by doing little things himself. McNair was great at it last year, not so much this year and Boller has always been bad. It's not like we are letting teams rush 4 guys and allowing pressure, there are some teams out there that struggle stopping just the front four.

The Ravens have allowed 27 sacks. It's in the bottom middle of the league. I can't find a "QB hurries" stat.


How?? Billick can't talk in Bollers ear when he gets to the line of scrimmage and change the play because they initial playcall isn't going to work. The Ravens have hot routes and audibles and the Qb has the right to change a play at the line if need be. Hot routes and audibles are QB 101 I mean I know some of you wanna bash Billick at all costs but I'm pretty sure he has gone over that numerous times with Kyle. It comes back to Boller just not being smart or at least not QB smart and his lack of awareness.

Uh, Billick can pull him to the sideline and slap him on the helmet a few times and say "Next time the defense shows blitz, call an audible!" After a few dozen times, it should sink in, but like you say, it hasn't happened effectively. And if Boller isn't doing what he's told, there is always Troy Smith. But that hasn't happened yet either.

[Sports Guy]

The "locking onto one WR" thing is old to me. He doesn't do this as much as he used to. If anything he stands in the pocket too long looking across the field to see who is open, and usually no one is. Yesterday I saw him continuously check off and find no one which usually resulted in a sack. So I guess your damned if you do and damned if you don't.

One thing is for sure though... like the Orioles need to rebuild their organization through scouting and player development, the Ravens need to address the OL. It's horrible and it's been horrible for years. Get it fixed and then worry about who you've got behind it throwing passes. No one and I mean NO ONE would be successful behind this OL.

Couple that with the playcalling and you've got a recipe for disaster.

EVERY QB does this....

[Hank Scorpio]

The Ravens have allowed 27 sacks. It's in the bottom middle of the league. I can't find a "QB hurries" stat.



Uh, Billick can pull him to the sideline and slap him on the helmet a few times and say "Next time the defense shows blitz, call an audible!" After a few dozen times, it should sink in, but like you say, it hasn't happened effectively. And if Boller isn't doing what he's told, there is always Troy Smith. But that hasn't happened yet either.

We allowed 17 sacks all of last season.

[longflyball]

This thread was very informative and a pleasure to read without OldFan's ravings clogging up the works.

[biggsy]

Uh, Billick can pull him to the sideline and slap him on the helmet a few times and say "Next time the defense shows blitz, call an audible!" After a few dozen times, it should sink in, but like you say, it hasn't happened effectively. And if Boller isn't doing what he's told, there is always Troy Smith. But that hasn't happened yet either.


I'm pretty positive Billick has probably done this. The man hasn't kept his job and been successful for damn near a decade by not knowing what he's doing. Just like I'm sure Marvin Lewis has got on Chad Johnson about his celebrations, we see what good those have done. Bad habits are hard to break. And Boller has alot of them that just aren't gonna go away.

[MikeAD]

I'm pretty positive Billick has probably done this. The man hasn't kept his job and been successful for damn near a decade by not knowing what he's doing. Just like I'm sure Marvin Lewis has got on Chad Johnson about his celebrations, we see what good those have done. Bad habits are hard to break. And Boller has alot of them that just aren't gonna go away.

Yeah, but most of Boller's bad habbits come from playign on this team and behind our line. Even if he does break his habbits he still has to step behind that line and survey the field and get a pass off in about 2 seconds.

[NewMarketSean]

I'm pretty positive Billick has probably done this. The man hasn't kept his job and been successful for damn near a decade by not knowing what he's doing. Just like I'm sure Marvin Lewis has got on Chad Johnson about his celebrations, we see what good those have done. Bad habits are hard to break. And Boller has alot of them that just aren't gonna go away.

But how do you know? As big a control guy as Billick is, he could be telling Boller not to change the play. You never know. I'd like to see Boller call audibles when players are blitzing, but we'll never know the whole story.

[Old#5fan]

There are plenty of times where he has time to progress through reads and either holds the ball too long while having happy feat and patting the ball a million times or puts his head down and takes off running. Just like there are times when his line does a piss poor job and he has no time and just like there are times when there is a little pressure and he could buy himself more time by stepping into the pocket or side stepping it, two things he rarely ever does. Boller doesn't help himself at all when it comes to pressure. He doesn't make line calls or audibles and he has a horrible pocket pressence. Just like McNair made the Oline look better than they were last year, Boller makes them look worse than they are when he is back there.

This is a spot on post and you took the words right off of my keyboard saving me the strokes~~!:) There is no doubt in my mind tht Boller is simply too clueless to audible or detect a blitz and make a great play. He is the same ole same ole Blunderboy. Nothing has changed whatsover with the lad other than his not shaving.

["Clank"]

This is a spot on post and you took the words right off of my keyboard saving me the strokes~~!:) There is no doubt in my mind tht Boller is simply too clueless to audible or detect a blitz and make a great play. He is the same ole same ole Blunderboy. Nothing has changed whatsover with the lad other than his not shaving.
Couldn't agree more. God bless him, I'm sure Boller works as hard as anybody on mechanics and fundamentals, but after all this time, he's showed minimal improvement in any part of his game. To me, it's apparent that he can do two things--throw a football,(although not with a great deal of accuracy), and the lad can take a hit. Other than that, he just doesn't have the athleticism or the savvy to be a successful pro QB.

[Old#5fan]

Couldn't agree more. God bless him, I'm sure Boller works as hard as anybody on mechanics and fundamentals, but after all this time, he's showed minimal improvement in any part of his game. To me, it's apparent that he can do two things--throw a football,(although not with a great deal of accuracy), and the lad can take a hit. Other than that, he just doesn't have the athleticism or the savvy to be a successful pro QB.

In other words he's never going to be able to "git er done.":eek: ;)