Fox Sports: Billick Fired ! [Archive] - Orioles Hangout Community

BaltimoreTerp

12-31-2007, 02:43 PM

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7621108

Despite his insistence that his job was safe, the Brian Billick era in Baltimore is over.

The team fired their head coach Monday, FOXSports.com has learned, capping an extremely disappointing season.

This comes one day after FOX Sports reported that the players and other employees informed team owner Steve Biscotti that Billick had completely lost the locker room and could not win them back.

Billick was hired as an offensive guru but during his tenure it was his defenses that won for the Ravens, especially their Super Bowl title. Over time Billick was unable to get his QBs to star and his offenses stalled year in and year out.

Earlier this year he proclaimed that he had been given the vote of confidence from Biscottit but that was never confirmed and was obviously not true.

Man, if that's true...

66-70-83-??

12-31-2007, 02:44 PM

What is interesting is that if this is true (only Fox is reporting it) once again the Baltimore Sun is outscooped.

When is the last time the Sun was first in anything Ravens or Orioles related ?

AgentOrange

12-31-2007, 02:47 PM

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7621108

Man, if that's true...

If that is true, than what?

66-70-83-??

12-31-2007, 02:48 PM

Just announced on Fox Sports radio.

Edit: 66- Beat me to it. Feel free to delete or move

LOL- how ironic is that- the poster (me) who was labeled by Tony as the biggest "Billick apologist" on the board was the one to "break the story" to the board. :o :p

Actually, my posts back me up on this recently- I have been on the fence about it for a little while. I can understand and justify him getting fired or staying.

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 02:51 PM

Well, color me merked. I would not have believed Bisciotti would eat the contract.

gallden

12-31-2007, 02:53 PM

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7621108

AgentOrange

12-31-2007, 02:53 PM

LOL- how ironic is that- the poster (me) who was labeled by Tony as the biggest "Billick apologist" on the board was the one to "break the story" to the board. :o :p

Actually, my posts back me up on this recently- I have been on the fence about it for a little while. I can understand and justify him getting fired or staying.

I think it would be more ironic if you were the one that actually fired him. :002_ssuprised:

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 02:54 PM

What is interesting is that if this is true (only Fox is reporting it) once again the Baltimore Sun is outscooped.

When is the last time the Sun was first in anything Ravens or Orioles related ?

Wasn't the Sun the first "print" source to break the Tejada trade?

gallden

12-31-2007, 02:55 PM

Bill Cowher anyone?? :p

DuffMan

12-31-2007, 02:56 PM

Here's hoping they bring back Davey Johnson, I mean the guy took us to the ALCS 2 years straight!!! O wait a minute wrong team:D

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 02:56 PM

Bill Cowher anyone?? :p

You really think he'd come here? That would be a slap in the face of the Rooneys, and the entire city of Pittsburgh.

Maverick2143

12-31-2007, 02:57 PM

You really think he'd come here? That would be a slap in the face of the Rooneys, and the entire city of Pittsburgh.

I agree its not happening. He seems pretty content sitting out one more year.

gallden

12-31-2007, 02:58 PM

You really think he'd come here? That would be a slap in the face of the Rooneys, and the entire city of Pittsburgh.

No I don't. My in-laws would instantly hate him along with all of PA.

BaltimoreTerp

12-31-2007, 03:04 PM

ESPN is running it as breaking news now.

beaner

12-31-2007, 03:09 PM

Kirk Ferentz? That's my pick.

clapdiddy

12-31-2007, 03:10 PM

Well for Bischotti to do this Billick definitely must have lost the team, and I guess if that's the case, he needed to go.

Certainly dissapointed though as I think this hurts our chances of contending next year...I wouldn't be surprised to see us rebuild now with a new guy.
Ummm....don't know about necessarily rebuilding...Pittsburgh won the division with a brand new coach this year.

gallden

12-31-2007, 03:10 PM

How much money was he owed? Like 15million?

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 03:11 PM

Kirk Ferentz? That's my pick.

Got to think he will be very high up on the list, if not #1 on that list.

I hope they don't go with someone like Shottenheimer.

Rex Ryan is the guy I think I would like to see get the job...You better believe if he isn't the HC next year that he will likely leave the team.

Rex Ryan as the head coach, Cameron(if fired) as the OC and promote someone from within to the def coordinator position...That may be the best case scenario.

orioles119

12-31-2007, 03:12 PM

How much money was he owed? Like 15million?
Dumb question...

Does the $15 M count against the cap?

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 03:14 PM

I have to wonder where Billick lands, too. I'm sure a coach with a winning record, even coming off a bad season, will be tempting to another team.

beaner

12-31-2007, 03:14 PM

Why are the Ravens and some fans on this guys bandwagon?

He hasn't even won at college the past 3 years.

I just always saw him a a natural replacement ever since he left to go to Iowa. He's won there before, down year this year.

gallden

12-31-2007, 03:16 PM

Got to think he will be very high up on the list, if not #1 on that list.

I hope they don't go with someone like Shottenheimer.

Rex Ryan is the guy I think I would like to see get the job...You better believe if he isn't the HC next year that he will likely leave the team.

Rex Ryan as the head coach, Cameron(if fired) as the OC and promote someone from within to the def coordinator position...That may be the best case scenario.

Thats what espn just said too.

gallden

12-31-2007, 03:17 PM

I have to wonder where Billick lands, too. I'm sure a coach with a winning record, even coming off a bad season, will be tempting to another team.

Miami maybe.

cindyluvsbrady

12-31-2007, 03:18 PM

Is this a joke?:confused:

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 03:18 PM

Jim Caldwell, from Indy, will probably get consideration as well.

Rex Ryan makes the most sense...He is well liked and knows the organization.

They can go out and pay some offensive coordinator big money and just let him run the offense with no interference from the head coach.

The Ravens like to promote from within for def coordinator, so I assume that is what they will do.

Another name to consider....Mike Singletary. Former coach here.

beaner

12-31-2007, 03:20 PM

longflyball

12-31-2007, 03:21 PM

I still say he won't return and the Wednesday at 2PM press conference coud be full of surprises. It's on MASN if anybody is near a TV at that time.

You called it. Reps on the way.

I'm surprised, but not shocked. Bisciotti saw the same things we saw and had the balls to act on it. Billick is an experienced coach and he's won a Super Bowl, but this needed to happen.

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 03:23 PM

What other coaches were fired? The news just said "several other coaches".

Other Ravens coaches were fired???

beaner

12-31-2007, 03:24 PM

Other Ravens coaches were fired???

The crawler on the bottom of the screen on WJZ said "several other coaches"..I can't seem to confirm with the few people that I know.

ChaosLex

12-31-2007, 03:24 PM

I have a bad feeling Marty Ball might be coming this way...

AgentOrange

12-31-2007, 03:26 PM

Thats what espn just said too.

I find that hard to believe. Rarely does a coach get promoted from within to get the head coaching job.

I think Jeff Fischer is the only active coach in the NFL to do so.

But you never know. It may happen this time.

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 03:26 PM

Nestor mentioned there will be a 3:30 press conference that they were heading over to. Not sure if it will be broadcast anywhere.

He was shocked and said while there were going to be massive changes, that he was told Billick was the safest guy in the building.

I get the feeling this was a last minute thing, that maybe Bischotti had to set some implications on Billick and Billick didn't like them and told Steve B to fire him.

If there's any solace I take in this, it's that it bamboozled Nestor. Guess all that locker room ass kissing doesn't always pay dividends.

AVencill

12-31-2007, 03:26 PM

Blowing up Baltimore, one franchise at a time.

Billick's firing is long overdue in my opinion and this almost assures me Ogden is gone too, if he wasn't already.

McNair (age) and Boller (draft bust from the beginning) both need to vanish, and they need a WR other than Mason to catch the football on a consistent basis.

Troy Smith might not be the answer either at QB, but I enjoyed watching him play solid football the last two weeks of the season. However, its his turn to run the show.

I know injuries cost many vets to miss half the year, but it is now time to rebuild this franchise, much like its time to do with the Orioles.

66-70-83-??

12-31-2007, 03:26 PM

Birds of B'more

12-31-2007, 03:27 PM

Why are the Ravens and some fans on this guys (Ferentz) bandwagon?

He hasn't even won at college the past 3 years.

I agree. He's been out of the NFL for too long IMO. I'd be concerned he might pull a Nick Saban or Bobbly Petrino and decide he misses college ball and suddenly vanish one day.

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 03:27 PM

The crawler on the bottom of the screen on WJZ said "several other coaches"..I can't seem to confirm with the few people that I know.

Oh ok...Perhaps Forester? Is he still the O-line coach? He was a friend of BB I believe.

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 03:27 PM

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7621108?FSO2&ATT=MA

Some here owe Bisciotti an apology for the insinuations that he doesnt get it or puts money in the way of doing what he thinks is right for the team.

That would be me and I do apologize to Mr. Bisciotti. Of course, I'm so damn giddy right now I'll apologize to anyone for anything. :D

Seriously though, this shows me a lot and I'm glad he stepped up and did the right thing even if it does show he made a mistake by extending Billick last year. I'm pumped though and ready for the purple kool aid again.... :D

Birds of B'more

12-31-2007, 03:28 PM

DuffMan

12-31-2007, 03:28 PM

I am torn- part of me wants Rex to get promoted. I like him.

But, another part of me wants to start totally fresh with an outsider.

Same here, while I think Rex would do well I think it's on the teams best interests to bring in a fresh face.

longflyball

12-31-2007, 03:29 PM

From The Sun: (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/football/bal-billick1231,0,7946013.story?coll=bal_breaking)

"I just changed my mind. I can't explain it to you. It's the toughest decision I've had to make," Ravens owner Steve Bisciotti told The Sun today.

ravensd5255

12-31-2007, 03:29 PM

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 03:29 PM

DuffMan

12-31-2007, 03:30 PM

That would be me and I do apologize to Mr. Bisciotti. Of course, I'm so damn giddy right now I'll apologize to anyone for anything. :D

Seriously though, this shows me a lot and I'm glad he stepped up and did the right thing even if it does show he made a mistake by extending Billick last year. I'm pumped though and ready for the purple kool aid again.... :D

Seriously, it was nice to see that he realized he made a mistake and was willing to correct this shows that he's willing to do what it takes to make and keep this a winning team.

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 03:31 PM

I am torn- part of me wants Rex to get promoted. I like him.

But, another part of me wants to start totally fresh with an outsider.

But the defense doesn't really need to be changed all that much.

It is the offense.

This isn't like the Orioles and the organization has a losing culture.

The offense just needs to be fixed.

Hire an OC that can basically be a second head coach(like Marvin Lewis was when he went to Washington) and that should be fine.

alev

12-31-2007, 03:32 PM

Mike Preston always comments on how the defense loves playing for Rex Ryan. I think alot of our problems this year have been due to Billick's inability to inspire anything in this football team. They showed against the Patriots that they are capable of beating (or at least playing with) any team in the league.

I feel that if Rex Ryan is hired he would be able to bring out the most in his players and help this team play up to it's full potential. Add in the return of some injured players and a new offensive system and I feel like the Ravens can be playoff bound again in 2008.

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 03:32 PM

I have a bad feeling Marty Ball might be coming this way...

Not with Rex Ryan and Singletary as possibilities. Boring Marty ball is way to much like Billick-ball.

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 03:33 PM

Also word was Rob Ryan was being fired in OAK so I wouldn't be suprised to see him land here as D coach.

That's interesting...Could see that happening.

BTW, this just increases the chances Suggs and Ogden come back IMO.

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 03:33 PM

Seriously, it was nice to see that he realized he made a mistake and was willing to correct this shows that he's willing to do what it takes to make and keep this a winning team.

Absolutely. Eating $15 million is not easy for anyone, but it's the right thing for this football team.

AgentOrange

12-31-2007, 03:34 PM

Seriously, it was nice to see that he realized he made a mistake and was willing to correct this shows that he's willing to do what it takes to make and keep this a winning team.

That's what you get when you are dealing with a Salisbury grad!!! :p

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 03:38 PM

I am torn- part of me wants Rex to get promoted. I like him.

But, another part of me wants to start totally fresh with an outsider.

I hear you, but Rex is well liked and we know he won't try and be an offensive coordinator. I like the idea of hiring Rex and going out and getting Cameron as o-coordinator if he's fired.

glenn__davis

12-31-2007, 03:39 PM

Some here owe Bisciotti an apology for the insinuations that he doesnt get it or puts money in the way of doing what he thinks is right for the team.

But...but...but...this proves that Ozzie doesn't have complete autonomy over personnel decisions!!!

Seriously, while I know it's not totally an apples to apples comparison, I do always wonder why people want Bisciotti to get involved, but they expect Angelos to be completely hands off. Can't have it both ways.

longflyball

12-31-2007, 03:42 PM

But...but...but...this proves that Ozzie doesn't have complete autonomy over personnel decisions!!!

Seriously, while I know it's not totally an apples to apples comparison, I do always wonder why people want Bisciotti to get involved, but they expect Angelos to be completely hands off. Can't have it both ways.

I don't have a problem with an owner wanting to have his say on the hiring/firing of coaches/managers. Players are another story.

Greg Pappas

12-31-2007, 03:42 PM

Happy Happy Joy Joy!!!!

Will Ryan be the next HC?

AgentOrange

12-31-2007, 03:44 PM

But...but...but...this proves that Ozzie doesn't have complete autonomy over personnel decisions!!!

Seriously, while I know it's not totally an apples to apples comparison, I do always wonder why people want Bisciotti to get involved, but they expect Angelos to be completely hands off. Can't have it both ways.

I think it has more to do with what is hands on and what is hands off. If it is dealing with actual players, keep off.

If it is dealing with coaches, hands on.

ccbird

12-31-2007, 03:45 PM

longflyball

12-31-2007, 03:46 PM

But we can't start having a revolving door at coach, and making a bad hire can really, really set a team back.

We can't hire someone, go 9-7 next year miss by 1 game, not like him but give him another year, then go 7-9 the next year and fire him, then you bring in a new guy and go through the cycle again.

This certainly is a risk. I'm confident that Bisciotti weighed it into his decision, and I'm optimistic that he'll hire the right guy and stick with him.

glenn__davis

12-31-2007, 03:47 PM

I think it has more to do with what is hands on and what is hands off. If it is dealing with actual players, keep off.

If it is dealing with coaches, hands on.

So, if Angelos decided he didn't want Trembley here and would rather go with someone else, that would be OK?

ChaosLex

12-31-2007, 03:47 PM

Not with Rex Ryan and Singletary as possibilities. Boring Marty ball is way to much like Billick-ball.

Rex Ryan's brother is the defensive coordinator for the Raiders, right? Any chance we lure him away and make him our DC, if Rex gets the heach coach position? :D

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 03:48 PM

66-70-83-??

12-31-2007, 03:49 PM

But...but...but...this proves that Ozzie doesn't have complete autonomy over personnel decisions!!!

Seriously, while I know it's not totally an apples to apples comparison, I do always wonder why people want Bisciotti to get involved, but they expect Angelos to be completely hands off. Can't have it both ways.

Owners obviously pick the management team to run the club. But, that doesn't mean he should micro-manage them or make their decisions for them.

For ex. - telling your GM who to select in the 4th round of the draft, who to start at RG, or what play to run is off limits to an owner.

Miller192

12-31-2007, 03:50 PM

I sincerely hope that this was more of a disagreement between Steve and Brian about how to go forward. I'd hate to think that Steve woke up this morning after a spirited win and decided to fire Brian after the reassurances he was given, reportedly. We already have one owner in town who likes to meddle, we don't need two.

As for the firing itself, if the organization feels that this was necessary than I support it. They have earned the benefit of doubt, the Ravens are a great organization and they have proved that time and time again.

I just hope there was a little more to it than players running to the owner complaining. I believe there was so I'll leave it at that.

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 03:51 PM

Yep totally agree. I lost a bit of respect for Bischotti here as well and I have to question if he's going to be as great as an owner as some people think.

I hope we promote Ryan as well. Hell we have a winning tradition already in Baltimore...No need to bring in an outside guy.

So, Bisciotti talks with all the players and they tell him Billick has lost the clubhouse and can't get it back and Bisciotti is wrong for firing Billick?

The guy is eating $15 million dollars a year after giving him an extension. If anything, this proves to me that he really will do what he thinks is best and i have gained a ton of respect for Bisciotti.

This Billick love needs to go away 9and thankfully will). One playoff win in seven seasons since the Super bowl season. i know you were a young impressionable kid when we won the super Bowl and Billick probably seemed bigger than life, but facts are facts and Bisciotti just proved to everyone that he will do what's right regardless of the financial costs.

66-70-83-??

12-31-2007, 03:52 PM

Well many of you got your wish. I just think you're in for a slap in the face when you realize the grass isn't always greener.

It sounds like from Bisciotti's quote that he had told Billick he was back and that the Glazer report from yesterday might be accurate. If that is the case I think Billick had to go. However, Billick has to feel completely stabbed in the back. He is a guy who has always stood up for his players, treated them like men, and often went further than he needed to defend them and they turn on him.

Good post.

I agree. The grass is always greener..... Be careful what you wish for.

Billick always treated the players like men and NEVER threw any of them under the bus. But, they turned on him in the end. As did the owner who may have changed his mind at the last minute.

Billick will find success with another team. Bisciotti may regret this decision.

Suppose, Ray and Company don't "like" the new guy ?

AgentOrange

12-31-2007, 03:52 PM

So, if Angelos decided he didn't want Trembley here and would rather go with someone else, that would be OK?

It all depends man. Of course you are talking about a guy who, right now, is viewed in a positive light from the fan base.

But look at the Perlozzo thing, or the Mazilli thing. If Angelos was the one who did that, I don't see how many here would have had a problem with it.

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 03:52 PM

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 03:53 PM

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 03:56 PM

What could it have been though? Obviously the veteran players will piss and moan when we're 5-11. But you don't go from a great coach last year to a fired coach this year when we have had 3 losing seasons since he's been here.

Hopefully we hear the true explanation at the press conference today.

Exactly.. Billick was not a great coach last year regardless of the record.

Oh, and we've won one playoff game in the last seven seasons.... 9-7 is a winning record but it normally doesn't get you into the playoffs.

MikeAD

12-31-2007, 03:56 PM

Jim Fassle anyone?

Does this mean that the Brian Billick show tommorow night is cancled?

I hope whoever comes in will just make a difference.

I don't think Rex Ryan is right for the job, I just don't as much as I like him. However if they do make him HC, they should make his brother DC, if he wants to come here. Rob Ryan's contract is up in Oakland and I don't know if they will give him another.

lpt2569

12-31-2007, 03:58 PM

One playoff win in seven seasons since the Super bowl season.

That's the key right there. With all the talent this team has had (mostly on defense, but a few on offense as well) over these last seven years, and what has Billick accomplished? Nothing. And that Super Bowl win was thanks to Marvin Lewis more than anybody. This was long overdue imo.

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 03:59 PM

Losing the locker room is justification enough to fire a coach, in any sport.

Couple that with him not being able to put together a competent offense and, likely, his unwillingess to hire an OC to run the offense and you have neough reason to get rid of him.

You know what's funny Rob, all of the Billick apologists suddenly saying things like "The grass is not always greener" or "Bisciotti is meddling like Angelos."

Face it, there is nothing people can tell them that will convince them that their "perfect coach" should have been fired.

This is a great day for the Ravens and Baltimore and no one is going to ruin this.

I really do hope the Ravens hire Ryan if the players like him as much as is reported. This team is not that far from being a competitor again and with a new offensive coordinator, I'm excited about what Troy smith and the offense can do next year.

66-70-83-??

12-31-2007, 04:00 PM

That's the key right there. With all the talent this team has had (mostly on defense, but a few on offense as well) over these last seven years, and what has Billick accomplished? Nothing. And that Super Bowl win was thanks to Marvin Lewis more than anybody. This was long overdue imo.

Most ridiculous comment in this entire thread.

How is the "defensive genius" doing in Cincy ?

Billick is fired. Celebrate if you want.

But, don't try to rewrite history. Billick had more to do with turning around this franchise and winning that Super Bowl as anyone.

Without Billick, we wouldnt have won that SB.

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 04:01 PM

Care to expand on this statement?

I've explained that 1000 times so it's no use going into it again anyways. Besides, I'm looking forward now, not back. I got what I wanted and I'm happy.

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 04:02 PM

From Nestor's blog.........

Word now outta the Ravens locker room is that Steve Bisciotti announced to the players that Brian Billick was fired and that a "future" Hall of Fame coach would be coming to take over the team
Ewwwww!!! This sounds like Shottenheimer to me.

Miller192

12-31-2007, 04:02 PM

What could it have been though? Obviously the veteran players will piss and moan when we're 5-11. But you don't go from a great coach last year to a fired coach this year when we have had 3 losing seasons since he's been here.

Hopefully we hear the true explanation at the press conference today.

I'm willing to bet it has more to do with how an offensive coordinator would run the offense then, gossip from players.

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 04:03 PM

66-70-83-??

12-31-2007, 04:04 PM

You know what's funny Rob, all of the Billick apologists suddenly saying things like "The grass is not always greener" or "Bisciotti is meddling like Angelos."

Face it, there is nothing people can tell them that will convince them that their "perfect coach" should have been fired.

This is a great day for the Ravens and Baltimore and no one is going to ruin this.

I really do hope the Ravens hire Ryan if the players like him as much as is reported. This team is not that far from being a competitor again and with a new offensive coordinator, I'm excited about what Troy smith and the offense can do next year.

Even if he deserved to be fired- it isn't a "great day" for Baltimore. :confused:

Don't be a sore winner. Why continue to bash "apologists" for their opinions ?

Call me crazy (or apologist) but I like the guy (Billick) and wish him well in the future. I also realize that a good case can be made for making a change.

MikeAD

12-31-2007, 04:05 PM

Rocky1983

12-31-2007, 04:05 PM

This day had to come. I will miss Billick, he was a good coach with a GREAT personality. The quote he made back in 2000 about going into the lion's den and screaming like banchies was awesome.

Here is who I think will be talked to:

Marty
Cowher
Jason Garrett- Cowboys OC
Rex Ryan
Mike Singletary

Depending on who else was let go on the coaching staff, if Rex Ryan was untouched then he is the #1 choice. Here is my preference:

Mike Singletary
Rex Ryan
Jason Garrett
The 2 former coaches can go elsewhere in my opinion. They are good. No way I can root for Cowher after calling him every name in the book for the last 10 years. Marty does not excite me. Hopefully JO does retire to free up about $13 million in cap room, but Billick being let go might motivate him to return.

Miller192

12-31-2007, 04:07 PM

Losing the locker room is justification enough to fire a coach, in any sport.

Couple that with him not being able to put together a competent offense and, likely, his unwillingess to hire an OC to run the offense and you have neough reason to get rid of him.

I'm not saying there isn't justification to fire the guy. I'm just hoping it's more than players running to him complaining about Billick. Of course, I say this without any knowledge of what went on. If Ray, Todd and Jonathan went to Steve and layed a solid case of why he should be fired then I can go along with that.

I guess what I am trying to say is, I hope the reasons for his firing have more to do with a difference of opinion then anything else.

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 04:07 PM

lpt2569

12-31-2007, 04:08 PM

Most ridiculous comment in this entire thread.

How is the "defensive genius" doing in Cincy ?

Billick is fired. Celebrate if you want.

But, don't try to rewrite history. Billick had more to do with turning around this franchise and winning that Super Bowl as anyone.

Without Billick, we wouldnt have won that SB.

I have nothing against Billick, I just think he's incredibly overrated, and I think we would have won that Super Bowl without him as coach, and possibly at least been to one or two since then with a different coach. Billick was supposed to be an "offensive genius", correct? What happened there? He's had tremendous talent and a strong coaching staff, yet has accomplished very little when it comes down to winning when it counts.

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 04:09 PM

Yeah, me too....You know Ozzie is a big fan of him as well from their Cleveland days.

I'd really really hate that move. Sure, we might see a more explosive offense...but at what cost?

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 04:13 PM

Most ridiculous comment in this entire thread.

How is the "defensive genius" doing in Cincy ?

Billick is fired. Celebrate if you want.

But, don't try to rewrite history. Billick had more to do with turning around this franchise and winning that Super Bowl as anyone.

Without Billick, we wouldnt have won that SB.

I'm not going to say Billick didn't contribute the Super Bowl year because that would not be fair, but I don't know if you can go that far either. We went five games without a TD during that year and caught every single break imaginable. I give Billick credit for the Super Bowl, and I give him credit for helping to turn this organization around, but I would never go as far to say we would not have won the Super Bowl without him.

Miller192

12-31-2007, 04:14 PM

I just heard from Aaron Wilson that this move was more of Bisciotti changing his mind.

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 04:15 PM

On the Anita Marks show right now they just said that all of the coaches were called to a meeting, Rex Ryan was escorted out and every coach was dismissed/fired. It is believed that all coaches are fired except for Ryan, who will be with the team in some capacity.

That is paraphrased. Yikes!

Holy snikies batman.....

Wow. Not surprised really, but it sure does show how bad the players were against the coaching minus Rex.

66-70-83-??

12-31-2007, 04:15 PM

I have nothing against Billick, I just think he's incredibly overrated, and I think we would have won that Super Bowl without him as coach, and possibly at least been to one or two since then with a different coach. Billick was supposed to be an "offensive genius", correct? What happened there? He's had tremendous talent and a strong coaching staff, yet has accomplished very little when it comes down to winning when it counts.

First of all, he never had tremendous talent on the offense.

You can't have it all in the NFL. You can't have a top defense and a top offense. Maybe he could have sacrificed more defensive talent for more offensive talent a few years ago. Maybe that wasn't his decision ?

Regardless, looking at the big picture (W/L) he was pretty good.

Name all the teams that won more games than the Ravens since Billick got here (Hint- it isn't a very long list).

Billick is no more the offensive guru than Marvin is the defensive guru. It takes good players to make good coaches.

If Bisciotti and/or Newsome believe it is time for a change because the message is stale or whatever reason- fine.

But, I don't see the reason to kick Brian out the door with arrows in his back. He deserves better.

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 04:15 PM

I'm not going to say Billick didn't contribute the Super Bowl year because that would not be fair, but I don't know if you can go that far either. We went five games without a TD during that year and caught every single break imaginable. I give Billick credit for the Super Bowl, and I give him credit for helping to turn this organization around, but I would never go as far to say we would not have won the Super Bowl without him.

People do tend to forget that part of the Super Bowl year, don't they?

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 04:18 PM

First of all, he never had tremendous talent on the offense.

You can't have it all in the NFL. You can't have a top defense and a top offense. Maybe he could have sacrificed more defensive talent for more offensive talent a few years ago. Maybe that wasn't his decision ?

Regardless, looking at the big picture (W/L) he was pretty good.

Name all the teams that won more games than the Ravens since Billick got here (Hint- it isn't a very long list).

Billick is no more the offensive guru than Marvin is the defensive guru. It takes good players to make good coaches.

If Bisciotti and/or Newsome believe it is time for a change because the message is stale or whatever reason- fine.

But, I don't see the reason to kick Brian out the door with arrows in his back. He deserves better.

If the man lost the team, he lost the team. There are player quotes coming out now that support that this is what happened. He wasn't going to get them back, and it's a lot easier to fire one guy than 40.

Mackus

12-31-2007, 04:19 PM

On the Anita Marks show right now they just said that all of the coaches were called to a meeting, Rex Ryan was escorted out and every coach was dismissed/fired. It is believed that all coaches are fired except for Ryan, who will be with the team in some capacity.

That is paraphrased. Yikes!I'm gonna go ahead an not believe this for a second.

It doesn't make any sense, if they are keeping Ryan, why would they fire all the defensive coaches under him?

Lot of crazy speculation going on today.

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 04:19 PM

First of all, he never had tremendous talent on the offense.

You can't have it all in the NFL. You can't have a top defense and a top offense. Maybe he could have sacrificed more defensive talent for more offensive talent a few years ago. Maybe that wasn't his decision ?

Regardless, looking at the big picture (W/L) he was pretty good.

Name all the teams that won more games than the Ravens since Billick got here (Hint- it isn't a very long list).

Billick is no more the offensive guru than Marvin is the defensive guru. It takes good players to make good coaches.

If Bisciotti and/or Newsome believe it is time for a change because the message is stale or whatever reason- fine.

But, I don't see the reason to kick Brian out the door with arrows in his back. He deserves better.

For a guy who says he's not apologist you sure do sound like one. ;)

Seriously though, how about this one. name the teams who have won more than one playoff game since 2000. (hint - it's a long one).

66-70-83-??

12-31-2007, 04:20 PM

I'm gonna go ahead an not believe this for a second.

It doesn't make any sense, if they are keeping Ryan, why would they fire all the defensive coaches under him?

Lot of crazy speculation going on today.

Right.

That wouldn't make sense.

And Rex probably wouldn't go along with that either.

longflyball

12-31-2007, 04:22 PM

A thought just occurred to me: Somewhere right now, Kyle Boller is out there changing his underwear.

66-70-83-??

12-31-2007, 04:28 PM

For a guy who says he's not apologist you sure do sound like one. ;)

Seriously though, how about this one. name the teams who have won more than one playoff game since 2000. (hint - it's a long one).

I admit- I am torn.

I like the guy but realize it might be time for a change.

With Perlozzo- I KNEW it was time for a change. But, I wasn't happy when he was fired.

I am ok with Billick getting fired but I really don't like all the arrows being shot at him on the way out. I feel the need to defend him.

He deserves much better. Like him or not- he was always a man of integrity.
He never threw any player or coach under the bus although he had opportunities (Matt Cavanaugh for ex).

He was always good and loyal to this city and its fan base. He was often the last guy standing and signing autographs in Westminster until everyone who wanted one got it.

Remember when Cleveland put the full court press on him and offered him a lucrative job offer that he had to take on the spot ? If he went to interview w/ Balto the offer was void.

He kept his word and came to Balto with no guarantees. Would you turn down your dream job offer (1st NFL HC job) because you "gave your word" to Ozzie that you would also interview with Balto ? (Holmgren didnt, remember that ?)

Go ahead Billick bashers and continue to insult him and kick him while he is down (and out).

I would rather thank him and wish him well. ;)

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 04:28 PM

The press conference is going to be televised I think...at 3:30 for those who are interested.

Some quotes:

"Sometimes the message can get repetitive after a while," 12-year offensive tackle Jonathan Ogden said.

"I'm not saying I agree with it," kicker Matt Stover said of Billick's dismissal, "but sometimes things have to change."

lpt2569

12-31-2007, 04:30 PM

First of all, he never had tremendous talent on the offense.

You can't have it all in the NFL. You can't have a top defense and a top offense. Maybe he could have sacrificed more defensive talent for more offensive talent a few years ago. Maybe that wasn't his decision ?

Regardless, looking at the big picture (W/L) he was pretty good.

Name all the teams that won more games than the Ravens since Billick got here (Hint- it isn't a very long list).

Billick is no more the offensive guru than Marvin is the defensive guru. It takes good players to make good coaches.

If Bisciotti and/or Newsome believe it is time for a change because the message is stale or whatever reason- fine.

But, I don't see the reason to kick Brian out the door with arrows in his back. He deserves better.

Wins and losses mean nothing in the NFL if you can't win a few playoff games and get to the Super Bowl. That's the whole point, right? Who really cares if the Patriots go undefeated but lose in the first round of the playoffs? You have to be able to coach the team to a few wins when it really counts and the opportunity is in front of you, and he doesn't have what it takes to do so, imo.

ChrisAF79

12-31-2007, 04:32 PM

I'm definitely in the minority here in that I liked Billick and was willing to give him a mulligan for the season. But what's done is done, and I'm anxious to see in which direction we go from here.

I wish him nothing but the best in the future (except against us), and I hope he lands on his feet. Thanks for everything Brian...

longflyball

12-31-2007, 04:32 PM

From The Sun: (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/football/bal-billick1231,0,7946013.story)

Asked whether he specifically told Billick that he would return earlier this month, Bisciotti said, "There were indications but no promises."

Is this proof enough that Billick was not "stabbed in the back"?

Fairfax Bird

12-31-2007, 04:33 PM

Name all the teams that won more games than the Ravens since Billick got here (Hint- it isn't a very long list).

Hmmm,

Indy, Pittsburgh, NE, Denver, GB, Seattle, Philly ... who am I missing?

BaltimoreTerp

12-31-2007, 04:37 PM

A few thoughts...

1) All the best to Brian Billick. He did a lot for this team.

2) With all of the coaches being fired (WMAR just said even Ryan is out, but he is a head coaching candidate), I hope that we look to do a complete housecleaning and rebuilding process. Find someone like Jason Garrett or Mike Singletary to run the team, hire a young staff, and get ready to make this another long tenure.

3) Any thought that Ozzie, who seemed to be pretty set with this team and Billick, would be out as well? He is just as much to blame for many of the issues the team has had recently.

4) *bleep* Marty Schottenheimer. Do we really want MartyBall? I'd take Billick's offense, because at least then we know what we are getting and that it won't fail us at the worst possible moment.

Bisciotti just said that we are looking for the "next Hall-of-Fame coach", so I guess that doesn't necessarily mean a retread.

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 04:38 PM

Listening to the press conference...Bischotti didn't say he was going to hire a HOF coach...He said that they need to find that HOF coach that is out there.

Not neccassarily meaning that someone like Marty who has the credentials already...But someone, perhaps like Tomlin, who is a young bright mind who could become a HOF caliber coach.

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 04:41 PM

Billick was willing to hire a new OC and give up play calling according to Bisciotti.

That's interesting.

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 04:41 PM

Think Josh McDaniels will get an interview?

I would think that is possible especially if they are doing a house cleaning.

BaltimoreTerp

12-31-2007, 04:42 PM

Think Josh McDaniels will get an interview?

So we can find the next Brian Billick?

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 04:42 PM

Billick was willing to hire a new OC and give up play calling according to Bisciotti.

That's interesting.

Yeah, what did he say the firing came down to, a gut feeling?

MikeAD

12-31-2007, 04:42 PM

They just asked Bischotti if he talked to players, and he said no, he talked to other personell in the organization.

Also Billick was willing to get a new O-Coordinator and give over the reigns. 5-6 weeks ago the job was going to go to Neuhisel, but Bischotti was against it, as Neuhisel wasn't the man for the job, due to him having offers for other jobs.

Bischotti says he never went into the locker room nor did he ever meet or interview Bill Cowher.

Excuse spelling, trying to get it all down.

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 04:44 PM

Bisciotti seems really screwed up over this.

Just said that the other coaches are welcome to stay, but they can't guaruntee that the new HC will want them.

MikeAD

12-31-2007, 04:44 PM

Sounds like Billick's staff is all gone unless the new HC wants to keep them.

BaltimoreTerp

12-31-2007, 04:44 PM

Billick was willing to hire a new OC and give up play calling according to Bisciotti.

That's interesting.

People seem to think Billick only sounds smart, and that his ego overrules his intelligence.

I think he is smart-enough to know what has to be done.

At least we know how hard a decision this is, Bisciotti sounds like this is a funeral service.

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 04:45 PM

Yeah, what did he say the firing came down to, a gut feeling?

Just time for a change.

Bisciotti said he came to the decision yesterday.

MikeAD

12-31-2007, 04:46 PM

Ozzie just said that Rex Ryan will be interviewed but that they will ensure that the best man is hired.

MikeAD

12-31-2007, 04:48 PM

Bischotti says we should be at the top of any coach's list. Great organiztion, pro bowl calibur players etc.

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 04:52 PM

It's pretty obvious that he likes Billick. Just doesn't think he's his coach.

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 04:56 PM

Boy, you really have to be impressed by Bisciotti and the way he holds himself and everyone else accountable.

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 04:57 PM

I admit- I am torn.

I like the guy but realize it might be time for a change.

With Perlozzo- I KNEW it was time for a change. But, I wasn't happy when he was fired.

I am ok with Billick getting fired but I really don't like all the arrows being shot at him on the way out. I feel the need to defend him.

He deserves much better. Like him or not- he was always a man of integrity.
He never threw any player or coach under the bus although he had opportunities (Matt Cavanaugh for ex).

He was always good and loyal to this city and its fan base. He was often the last guy standing and signing autographs in Westminster until everyone who wanted one got it.

Remember when Cleveland put the full court press on him and offered him a lucrative job offer that he had to take on the spot ? If he went to interview w/ Balto the offer was void.

He kept his word and came to Balto with no guarantees. Would you turn down your dream job offer (1st NFL HC job) because you "gave your word" to Ozzie that you would also interview with Balto ? (Holmgren didnt, remember that ?)

Go ahead Billick bashers and continue to insult him and kick him while he is down (and out).

I would rather thank him and wish him well. ;)

I agree with all of this and I will give him his props for that stuff. I have no problems with Billick as a man and I do wish him well.

Hank Scorpio

12-31-2007, 04:57 PM

Not with Rex Ryan and Singletary as possibilities. Boring Marty ball is way to much like Billick-ball.

I would be completely shocked if Singletary got the head coaching position.

Bill Cowher is definitely a possibility.

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 04:59 PM

I think the 1300 guys missed the part of the presser when Bisciotti said that he had given Billick some goals, and while Billick did his best he came up short.

clapdiddy

12-31-2007, 05:00 PM

I would be completely shocked if Singletary got the head coaching position.

Bill Cowher is definitely a possibility.
Did you hear this from someone, or is this your speculation?

Hank Scorpio

12-31-2007, 05:00 PM

Holy Jeebus...

Rex was also fired, but will be given an opportunity to interview for the head coaching position.

Hank Scorpio

12-31-2007, 05:00 PM

Did you hear this from someone, or is this your speculation?

I've heard his name and Marvin Lewis' as well.

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 05:04 PM

Billicks' statement, per ESPN.com:

"It has been a great ride with the Ravens and the fans here. My family and I have grown to love this area, and this is where we will continue to live.

"I've always bragged that this is the best organization, and it is because of the people here. They are the most competent. They made my job easier because of the support they give to make sure the focus is always about finding a way to win. In particular, my relationship with Ozzie Newsome is special. I think the way we worked is the way coaching and personnel should. I'll miss our scrimmaging about how to make things work for the team.

"The passion, the dedication and the willingness to work by the players is so appreciated. Even in this difficult season, they fought through it. My respect for the players -- every single one who has played for the Ravens in the last 9 years -- is hard to articulate. They have my complete respect and admiration.

"I believe in the partnership that Steve Bisciotti has assembled. The process does work. I was part of that. He had to make a hard decision, and he did what he believes is best for the Ravens. We are friends and will remain friends."

clapdiddy

12-31-2007, 05:04 PM

I've heard his name and Marvin Lewis' as well.
I'm not thrilled with either of those choices. I'd like to see someone new...like a Jason Garrett.

Mackus

12-31-2007, 05:05 PM

After watching the press conference and then hearing Billick's statement, the one obvious conclusion is that this organization is incredibly classy. They handled the firing respectfully, refusing to throw Billick under the bus (Bischotti even refused to cite the examples of Billick's shortcomings), they explained how the process will go for hiring the new coach, they are honoring all the contracts given out to Billick and his coaches, even offering their support for the new coaches to go out and look for new jobs.

Billick's statement was very classy as well, and praised the Ravens organization as the best in football. He's definitely shown a lot more class than the people who are rejoicing that he lost his job.

MikeAD

12-31-2007, 05:08 PM

Rex was also fired, but will be given an opportunity to interview for the head coaching position.

Does this mean he won't be the DC next year, or will that be up to the new HC, if it is not Ryan.

And I don't know how I feel about Marvin Lewis..could be great could be awful.

lpt2569

12-31-2007, 05:08 PM

He's definitely shown a lot more class than the people who are rejoicing that he lost his job.

Let's not take this so seriously. He's not making minimum wage, he's gonna be just fine, most likely as a Head Coach for another team.

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 05:09 PM

Viviano made a good point...Bisciotti stressed that they had good players and a SB caliber core...Knowing that and with Bisciotti's desire to win now, i am not sure a young, up and coming coach is the way they will go but they did say they would be very thorough and reach out for a lot of help on this decision.

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 05:11 PM

Does this mean he won't be the DC next year, or will that be up to the new HC, if it is not Ryan.

And I don't know how I feel about Marvin Lewis..could be great could be awful.

I will be very surprised if Ryan came back next year if he isn't named the head coach.

Hank Scorpio

12-31-2007, 05:11 PM

Does this mean he won't be the DC next year, or will that be up to the new HC, if it is not Ryan.

And I don't know how I feel about Marvin Lewis..could be great could be awful.

It means he's fired along with all the rest of the coaching staff, but with the understanding that he will have an opportunity to interview for the head coaching position. I would be surprised if he got the job, though. Whoever the new head coach is will be in charge of assembling his own coaching staff.

I would be surprised if it wasn't Bill Cowher.

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 05:14 PM

Billick's statement was very classy as well, and praised the Ravens organization as the best in football. He's definitely shown a lot more class than the people who are rejoicing that he lost his job.

That's a bunch of crap. This organization has always been classy but to take shots at the people who are elated over this is just plain stupid. Billick is going to make $15 million to stay at home. No one should be crying for him. He handled things a classy way and I expected nothing less. Billick has always been classy in his remarks about the city and the fans for the most part and considering he's getting paid $15 million to do nothing, I'd say he has no reason to be too upset.

We are rejoicing because this is what this team needs, so to take shots at us is pretty damn ridiculous.

Mackus

12-31-2007, 05:14 PM

I will be very surprised if Ryan came back next year if he isn't named the head coach.I agree, he's either the HC or he's gone.

I hope he gets the job. I'd rather have him than Cowher or certainly Marty. And I don't think Jason Garrett leaves Dallas, he knows he's the head coach there as soon as Phillips steps down, why would he leave?

longflyball

12-31-2007, 05:16 PM

I would be surprised if it wasn't Bill Cowher.

Bisciotti did his best to squash the Cowher rumor in the press conference, but I see it is still very much alive.

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 05:16 PM

It means he's fired along with all the rest of the coaching staff, but with the understanding that he will have an opportunity to interview for the head coaching position. I would be surprised if he got the job, though. Whoever the new head coach is will be in charge of assembling his own coaching staff.

I would be surprised if it wasn't Bill Cowher.

I think that's the key here and it's the right thing to do. Whoever is brought in should be able to work with Ozzie to pick his staff.

Mackus

12-31-2007, 05:16 PM

That's a bunch of crap. This organization has always been classy but to take shots at the people who are elated over this is just plain stupid. Billick is going to make $15 million to stay at home. No one should be crying for him. He handled things a classy way and I expected nothing less. Billick has always been classy in his remarks about the city and the fans for the most part and considering he's getting paid $15 million to do nothing, I'd say he has no reason to be too upset.

We are rejoicing because this is what this team needs, so to take shots at us is pretty damn ridiculous.Its not a bunch of crap. Billick has handled this with nothing but class. Perhaps he was expected to do that, but after having been given assurances he wasn't going to be fired, it would be hard to blame him for having some hard feelings. Not only did he not gripe and complain, he was magnanimous in his praise of the organization as the best in the business. That's a step beyond just taking his firing like a man.

And I definitely think its more than just "rejoicing because this is what the team needs", especially when there are people still bashing him for various reasons in the Billick Appreciation Thread.

MikeAD

12-31-2007, 05:17 PM

It means he's fired along with all the rest of the coaching staff, but with the understanding that he will have an opportunity to interview for the head coaching position. I would be surprised if he got the job, though. Whoever the new head coach is will be in charge of assembling his own coaching staff.

I would be surprised if it wasn't Bill Cowher.

Noo!!

I don't want the spitter as the new HC.

No offense, but I hope you are entirely wrong :D.

Have you heard anything other than grumblings about Marvin Lewis?

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 05:17 PM

Bisciotti did his best to squash the Cowher rumor in the press conference, but I see it is still very much alive.

Tom Matte just said the same thing on 1300. He would not be surprised to see Cowher. I don't know if I could take that jaw. :D

Why Not?

12-31-2007, 05:19 PM

I think it was time for Billick to go, but I think that fact is unfortunate. The majority of NFL coaches lose more than they win, which is why teams hold on to the good ones for so long. The Ravens' next coach will probably be less successful and coach here for a shorter period than Billick did.

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 05:20 PM

Its not a bunch of crap. Billick has handled this with nothing but class. Perhaps he was expected to do that, but after having been given assurances he wasn't going to be fired, it would be hard to blame him for having some hard feelings. Not only did he not gripe and complain, he was magnanimous in his praise of the organization as the best in the business. That's a step beyond just taking his firing like a man.

And I definitely think its more than just "rejoicing because this is what the team needs", especially when there are people still bashing him for various reasons in the Billick Appreciation Thread.

And what the hell is wrong with that? Get over yourself. This is not a funeral. We are getting a new HC and the old one is going to be making $15 million to do nothing over the next three years if he wants. Billick was not a good HC. He was fired, and you are darn right I'm going to rejoice.

Mackus

12-31-2007, 05:21 PM

Tom Matte just said the same thing on 1300. He would not be surprised to see Cowher. I don't know if I could take that jaw. :DYeah I don't think I want Cowher either. He really isn't all that much different from Billick in terms of their coaching credentials, Cowher's SB just came at the end of his reign, whereas Billick's came early. The few seasons before Pittsburgh's SB Steelers fans spoke of Cowher quite similarly to the way Raven's fans spoke of Billick over the past 2-3 seasons.

clapdiddy

12-31-2007, 05:21 PM

I don't want Cowher or Marvin Lewis.

Please make it a young, up and coming guy like Tomlin in Pittsburgh. We need a fresh face.

lpt2569

12-31-2007, 05:21 PM

And I definitely think its more than just "rejoicing because this is what the team needs", especially when there are people still bashing him for various reasons in the Billick Appreciation Thread.

There may be a few who are piling on, like a feeding frenzy, but I agree with Tony. This is not only a good for the team, it's good for the city of Baltimore, the state of Maryland, and all ravens fans from all over the country. It will bring new interest and excitement for the town and the team. That's worth rejoicing.

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 05:21 PM

I am not sure if I would want Cowher or not...First of all, he is a Steeler.

Secondly, i would prefer a younger coach.

ccbird

12-31-2007, 05:22 PM

I don't want Ryan. Since they decided to completely clean house than Ryan needs to be gone too.

To me it seems obvious their first choice is going to be someone outside the organization and probably Cowher. Rex will probably be the fall back option.

Mackus

12-31-2007, 05:22 PM

Why Not?

12-31-2007, 05:22 PM

I think that's the key here and it's the right thing to do. Whoever is brought in should be able to work with Ozzie to pick his staff.

So you don't think Rick Dempsey and Terry Crowley should be part of the next head coach's staff?

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 05:24 PM

I am not sure if I would want Cowher or not...First of all, he is a Steeler.

Secondly, i would prefer a younger coach.

I'm with you and the others that are not for Cowher. Cowher is a Steeler, and to tell you the truth, I'll be hoping the Ravens go with another choice.

Just like I would not want Joe Torre as manager of the Orioles, no on Cowher.

Besides, I think Cowher is going to head down to Miami. Just a hunch.

beaner

12-31-2007, 05:27 PM

I'm with you and the others that are not for Cowher. Cowher is a Steeler, and to tell you the truth, I'll be hoping the Ravens go with another choice.

Just like I would not want Joe Torre as manager of the Orioles, no on Cowher.

Besides, I think Cowher is going to head down to Miami. Just a hunch.

I think Cowher is waiting on Carolina to make a decision on Fox. That's the job I think he'll end up taking, if he does return.

ccbird

12-31-2007, 05:28 PM

Miller192

12-31-2007, 05:29 PM

I'm with you and the others that are not for Cowher. Cowher is a Steeler, and to tell you the truth, I'll be hoping the Ravens go with another choice.

Just like I would not want Joe Torre as manager of the Orioles, no on Cowher.

Besides, I think Cowher is going to head down to Miami. Just a hunch.

I don't care who or where he coached. If he gets us some more Super Bowl wins his name could be Jeffrey Maier :D

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 05:30 PM

Tony... You and some other fans are completely setting yourself up for me to tell you I told you so, and believe me I will when this offense and team are just as bad with the next guy.

And you just did the same thing if it goes the other way.

Mackus

12-31-2007, 05:31 PM

Cowher may be a good coach but he's a Steeler...Don't want him here. We're Ravens and the Steelers are our rival...We hate the Steelers and really we hate Cowher too.Thats the same thing some Michigan fans said about Bo Schembechler. Good thing they didn't even bother to interview that bum!

I don't think Cowher is the best choice, but who he coached for before is absolutely irrelevant.

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 05:32 PM

Tony... You and some other fans are completely setting yourself up for me to tell you I told you so, and believe me I will when this offense and team are just as bad with the next guy.

The offensive system is brutal...I know you want to pin it all on the QB but you are wrong.

Plenty of teams have had average at best QBs and been able to run an offense better than us...Plenty of teams have been more disciplined, had better clock management and things like that.

BaltimoreTerp

12-31-2007, 05:33 PM

Tom Matte just said the same thing on 1300. He would not be surprised to see Cowher. I don't know if I could take that jaw. :D

It's a beak...;)

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 05:33 PM

Thats the same thing some Michigan fans said about Bo Schembechler. Good thing they didn't even bother to interview that bum!

I don't think Cowher is the best choice, but who he coached for before is absolutely irrelevant.

Not completely, but not in the way most people are talking about it. I think it influences Cowher more than someone else. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would make himself a pariah to Pittsburgh by going to a heated division rival.

Mackus

12-31-2007, 05:34 PM

Not completely, but not in the way most people are talking about it. I think it influences Cowher more than someone else. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would make himself a pariah to Pittsburgh by going to a heated division rival.Oh I agree it probably plays a role in Cowher's decision-making, but it absolutely should not in ours.

DuffMan

12-31-2007, 05:34 PM

BaltimoreTerp

12-31-2007, 05:34 PM

Thats the same thing some Michigan fans said about Bo Schembechler. Good thing they didn't even bother to interview that bum!

I don't think Cowher is the best choice, but who he coached for before is absolutely irrelevant.

When you coached for a team for a decade-and-a-half, led them to two Super Bowls and won one, and became so ingrained in the culture of the team that the frickin' mascot is modeled off of you, I think it's fair to make that kind of point.

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 05:35 PM

Seriously this offense has been below average for years!!!! All we need to do is get a head coach that can even bring the offense up to average and that will be a great improvement!

What we need, to be honest, is a HC or OC that won't try to fit square pegs in to round holes.

ccbird

12-31-2007, 05:37 PM

And you just did the same thing if it goes the other way.

That's fine. If the next guy can come in and win and have a good offense with Boller or Troy Smith as his QB I'll take anything you guys want to dish out.

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 05:38 PM

That's fine. If the next guy can come in and win and have a good offense with Boller or Troy Smith as his QB I'll take anything you guys want to dish out.

What are the odds of a new coach sticking with all the same personnel? You have a loaded "bet" there.

ccbird

12-31-2007, 05:39 PM

What are the odds of a new coach sticking with all the same personnel? You have a loaded "bet" there.

There is a great chance Boller or Smith is the QB next year.

Hank Scorpio

12-31-2007, 05:40 PM

Cowher may be a good coach but he's a Steeler...Don't want him here. We're Ravens and the Steelers are our rival...We hate the Steelers and really we hate Cowher too.

Yes, the FANS hate the Steelers... but the owner likes Cowher and they are in need of a head coach who is a bit of a disciplinarian. I know that Bisciotti and Cowher are boys. Cowher's been in the owner's box this year.

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 05:41 PM

Yes, the FANS hate the Steelers... but the owner likes Cowher and they are in need of a head coach who is a bit of a disciplinarian. I know that Bisciotti and Cowher are boys. Cowher's been in the owner's box this year.

You realize this directly contradicts what Bisciotti very publically claimed today, right?

Hank Scorpio

12-31-2007, 05:42 PM

Billick's firing will essentially avert a mass exodus and lessen trade demands that were coming. There is a chance that McAlister, Suggs and Ogden all come back now that Billick is history.

Hank Scorpio

12-31-2007, 05:42 PM

You realize this directly contradicts what Bisciotti very publically claimed today, right?

Ock just saying....

Hank Scorpio

12-31-2007, 05:43 PM

You realize this directly contradicts what Bisciotti very publically claimed today, right?

Also, didn't Bisciotti claim that Billick's job was safe a few weeks ago?

"I just changed my mind," Bisciotti told The Sun.

I'm not saying Cowher is a definite, but he is at the top of the short list.

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 05:44 PM

Ock just saying....

I know you were just saying, and I know you are more "in" than the rest of us, but Bisciotti was quite adamant about the fact that he has never even met Cowher, and if he did, it was in such a way that he doesn't remember (his example was "shaking his hand five years ago at an NFL meeting"). I don't really see him telling such a bald faced lie, you know?

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 05:45 PM

Also, didn't Bisciotti claim that Billick's job was safe a few weeks ago?

I'm not saying Cowher is a definite, but he is at the top of the short list.

No, according to all the reports today, he didn't. He never publically said anything to that effect, and I read one thing today that said when Billick was crowing about staying he was contacted and wouldn't confirm.

mweb

12-31-2007, 05:47 PM

Tony...come on now man.

Do you realize the tone of what you're saying? We get it...You didn't like Billick. Some of us do, some don't.

But the guy won a SB, 2 division titles, and basically put Baltimore back on the map. We are a powerhouse NFL franchise now for a variety of reasons...Billick is one of them.

You're going a bit extreme by saying it's a great day in Baltimore.

They are?:confused: Tony is being nice with his 1 playoff win in the last 7 years comment, since if you start at 2002, it's 0 playoff wins in that past 6 seasons, and only 2 playoff appearances. How is that a resume of a powerhouse franchise? Some of you Raven fans really have some delusions about how good your team has performed in recent years.

I think this is a good move for the Ravens considering Billick lost the locker room and apparently wouldn't be able to get it back.

Hank Scorpio

12-31-2007, 05:49 PM

I know you were just saying, and I know you are more "in" than the rest of us, but Bisciotti was quite adamant about the fact that he has never even met Cowher, and if he did, it was in such a way that he doesn't remember (his example was "shaking his hand five years ago at an NFL meeting"). I don't really see him telling such a bald faced lie, you know?

More importantly.... did you pick up on "Ock just saying"?

Hank Scorpio

12-31-2007, 05:49 PM

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 05:51 PM

More importantly.... did you pick up on "Ock just saying"?

Well, I picked up on the just saying part...not sure what Ock means. Beyond Doc Ock. Wait, did you get your info from Doc Ock?? ;)

I'm not doubting you, but at the same time, it's hard to believe he'd say something so easily refuted.

mweb

12-31-2007, 05:51 PM

Ewwwww!!! This sounds like Shottenheimer to me.

I don't get why everyone is so anti-Marty, is it just because he's older or hasn't won the big one? He did go 14-2 in 2006, and his team lead the league in scoring, I don't think "Marty Ball" is boring or lacking in results on the offensive end. Is it as exciting as if Mike Martz or someone like that took over, no, but it produces wins.

Hank Scorpio

12-31-2007, 05:51 PM

Well, I picked up on the just saying part...not sure what Ock means. Beyond Doc Ock. Wait, did you get your info from Doc Ock?? ;)

I'm not doubting you, but at the same time, it's hard to believe he'd say something so easily refuted.

Ah, it's from a Simpsons episode where two cavemen are having an argument. I use that one all the time.

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 05:51 PM

This is definitely not true, that I am sure of.

Well again, Bisciotti seems entirely too smart to tell such a bald faced and easily refutable lie. But if he did, you surely won't be the only one to call him on it.

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 05:52 PM

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 05:53 PM

Ah, it's from a Simpsons episode where two cavemen are having an argument. I use that one all the time.

Oooooh, okay. I think of it more like ook.

Hank Scorpio

12-31-2007, 05:54 PM

Well again, Bisciotti seems entirely too smart to tell such a bald faced and easily refutable lie. But if he did, you surely won't be the only one to call him on it.

Well, if they do hire him, they could always say they decided he was the best guy going forward, etc.... they really don't have to address whether or not Bisciotti has played golf with him. I have heard from more than 2 people that this is the case.

I didn't caddy for him or anything, though... so you never know. ;)

ccbird

12-31-2007, 05:55 PM

The offensive system is brutal...I know you want to pin it all on the QB but you are wrong.

Plenty of teams have had average at best QBs and been able to run an offense better than us...Plenty of teams have been more disciplined, had better clock management and things like that.

I've never said Billick's system was great or even good and I've never defended his poor clock management. I've always said I believed we could be a top 12 ball, control offense with Billick but I've also been an advocate of him turning the offense over to someone else.

Yes, I'll stick by my belief that the biggest problem has been poor QB play. I don't think we will be much, if any better if our Qb's are as bad as they've been this year. There are so many people rejoicing that Billick is gone and that it is a forgone conclussion that the offense and team are going to be much better with the next guy and I completely disagree with that.

Miller192

12-31-2007, 05:55 PM

I wonder how the veterans are going to feel when they are forced to stay at training camp instead of going home to their families.

The Wedge

12-31-2007, 05:56 PM

Well, if they do hire him, they could always say they decided he was the best guy going forward, etc.... they really don't have to address whether or not Bisciotti has played golf with him. I have heard from more than 2 people that this is the case.

I didn't caddy for him or anything, though... so you never know. ;)

Well, like I said, if it was a lie, it's entirely too easy to refute, and you won't be the only one to refute it. I mean, I guess I wouldn't be surprised if he lied about it, but he was so matter of fact and decisive about it. Keep in mind that was one of the only things he was direct about in the whole presser.

Why Not?

12-31-2007, 05:58 PM

I wonder how the veterans are going to feel when they are forced to stay at training camp instead of going home to their families.

I don't know, but that's exactly what they need. This team failed to show up way too often.

Hank Scorpio

12-31-2007, 05:58 PM

Well, like I said, if it was a lie, it's entirely too easy to refute, and you won't be the only one to refute it. I mean, I guess I wouldn't be surprised if he lied about it, but he was so matter of fact and decisive about it. Keep in mind that was one of the only things he was direct about in the whole presser.

Yah, I didn't see it. I would have liked to but I was playing FLOOR HOCKEY!!!!!

Man that's fun.

mweb

12-31-2007, 05:59 PM

I don't mean powerhouse as far as wins obviously. I said organization in that we have a Top GM, young up and coming owner who has his head in the right place, and top talent on the team. We are usually competitive and have SB aspirations at the start of every season. Realistically, not just hope.
When you look at the Ravens you see a successful, top franchise in the NFL. I'm not sure that can really be disputed.

Strongly disagree with the bolded part. And I do think it can be disputed, yes you have a good GM and draft well, but he obviously hasn't done a very good job on assembling an offense. I'm not sure what the owner has done to be viewed in a better light than most owners. Looks like some of that top talent will be lost this offseason, some of it is getting up there in years(Ogden, Ray, Pyrce, CMac, Mason), and most of it is on one side of the ball.

If you define top franchise as top half of the league, sure, they're that, top 10, borderline, top 5, no.

Hank Scorpio

12-31-2007, 06:02 PM

I wonder how the veterans are going to feel when they are forced to stay at training camp instead of going home to their families.

Me too. Most of the team loved Billick's trust in them.

Miller192

12-31-2007, 06:03 PM

I don't know, but that's exactly what they need. This team failed to show up way too often.

I don't think it makes a difference either way. I just think it's going to be a little hard to undo some of the things Billick has done here. These guys were treated much differently than they would be in other organizations.

AgentOrange

12-31-2007, 06:05 PM

Who would you put over the Ravens?

Colts
Pats
Jags
Chargers
Steelers
Dallas
Seahawks
Giants

Not sure I would put anyone else up there yet. A lot of teams close though, IMO.

mweb

12-31-2007, 06:08 PM

Who would you put over the Ravens?

Pats, Colts, Steelers, Broncos, Jags, Eagles, Chargers, Seahawks, Cowboys, Packers.

ccbird

12-31-2007, 06:10 PM

The Ravens have clearly and continue to be a top ten NFL franchise this decade. That isn't borderline. Top 5 is borderline. Indy and New Englnd and Pittsburgh are the only teams clearly ahead of the Ravens.

Bisciotti was absolutely right today. We have the personel from the FO to players combined with a great stadium, training facilities and fan base that make us a very desirable place for any potential coach.

blakesta

12-31-2007, 06:12 PM

Anyone think Mike Singletary would make for a good head coach here?

ccbird

12-31-2007, 06:13 PM

Pats, Colts, Steelers, Broncos, Jags, Eagles, Chargers, Seahawks, Cowboys, Packers.

Rofl at the Jags, Chargers and Seahawks. We aren't talking just talent which would be debatable anyway.

Hank Scorpio

12-31-2007, 06:15 PM

Anyone think Mike Singletary would make for a good head coach here?

I don't think he's ready to be a head coach.

AgentOrange

12-31-2007, 06:15 PM

No way the Chargers, Giants, or Jags are better organizations than the Ravens. I'm talking overall. No way IMO. Just because they have good teams now don't mean they are looked at as better organization. Look at the total picture. Owner, GM, draft, hell even fan experience...Jags can't even sellout all of their games.

I put us up there with the Pats, Cowboys, Broncos, Packers, Colts, Eagles, Steelers, and Seahawks as the top organizations in the NFL.

I would say that keys to success is winning games.

The Chargers have drafted very very well recently. Just because they have a weak fan base, shouldn't count against them as an organization, same goes with the Jags.

The Jags went with Garrard and look what happened. That is a sign of a great organization, they have a great coach and I don't even think they had a pro bowler this year and they are a playoff team. That means they have solid players all around the board. This didn't happen by accident. They have also drafted very well and have good player decision makers.

I forgot about the Broncos. They belong up there.

Eagles... I would put them on the same level as the Ravens, IMO.

They Giants have been a pretty good team recently as well. Look at some of the players they have drafted as well. They are consistently solid, which is hard to do.

Tony-OH

12-31-2007, 06:17 PM

Tony... You and some other fans are completely setting yourself up for me to tell you I told you so, and believe me I will when this offense and team are just as bad with the next guy.

Riiiiiiight. Because you've been so right so far.. :)

mweb

12-31-2007, 06:23 PM

How are you guys saying the Jags and Chargers? 4 years ago the Chargers had Eli Manning refuse to play for them...They just fired their coach after 14-2 because their GM didn't like him.

Chargers have been much better these past 4 years, and are more likely to be better in the immediate future, so what if they were terrible in 2000 and 2001. I also like the Jags going forward more than the Ravens, and they have obviously done better the last 4 years as well.

mweb

12-31-2007, 06:25 PM

But your just looking at team performance. So the Jags made a good switch at QB? That's a personnel decision for the team this year...I'm talking about an overall view of the organization.

Solid owner, still up and coming. Will obviusly spend money and make the tough decisions.

Top GM in football.

Top Draft and Scouting Personnel in Football.

Head coach continunity until today...Hopefully that continues.

Top Training Facility, Top Stadium, Top home field advantage, Top Fan support

This is before we even talk about the players....We don't have the history that teams like the Packers and Pitt have but when you look at the whole organization from the outside it is one of the best in the business.

If all this is true, then your boy Billick must be terrible! 0 playoff wins in the past 6 years, only two playoff appearances with all that going for them! I don't see how you can believe all that and think Billick was a very good coach during that timespan.

AgentOrange

12-31-2007, 06:29 PM

mweb

12-31-2007, 06:30 PM

Rofl at the Jags, Chargers and Seahawks. We aren't talking just talent which would be debatable anyway.

Rofl at much of what you said in the NFL forum about the Ravens this year.

The Seahawks have made the playoffs 5 straight years, and were in the SB in 2005, that's very good. I've already explained the other two. Yeah, if you want to go back to the 2000 season, you may be ahead of most or all of those teams, but that's a long way to go back to determine who is the top franchises now, unless there has been consistent success since that time, which there obviously hasn't been.

mweb

12-31-2007, 06:31 PM

Either that, or the QB position is a lot more important than we give it credit...

I'd say both(except the terrible part, just say mediocre), and I'd say one can't be the best GM in the league if he does a poor job at the QB position.

AgentOrange

12-31-2007, 06:34 PM

I'd say both(except the terrible part, just say mediocre), and I'd say one can't be the best GM in the league if he does a poor job at the QB position.

I still feel like its more to do with the offense that was being run than the QBs. I mean look at some of the QBs around the league. Most are nothing special as far as tools they have, but they get it done because the offense they are in works for them.

I mean hell, look at Todd Collins. He is not good at all, but he knows his system very well and has looked like Tony Romo circa '06 this year so far for you guys. HE doesn't have any great tools but he can run the hell out of that offense and you guys are ballin' right now on offense.

ccbird

12-31-2007, 06:38 PM

If all this is true, then your boy Billick must be terrible! 0 playoff wins in the past 6 years, only two playoff appearances with all that going for them! I don't see how you can believe all that and think Billick was a very good coach during that timespan.

Billick wasn't very good during this time span. Nobody believes Billck was doing a bang up job and while some of us would have prefered to have kept him nobody has denied that the move wasn't without justification or necessary if he lost his players.

The Billick debate wasn't black and white. Sure some people chose their sides and drew their line in the sand but I think most were somewhere in the middle and undecided on him. With the way everything has played out and hearing him speak today it sounds like the owner himself was very much conflicted by a Billick decision. Heck, he said as much at the end of the press conference.

mweb

12-31-2007, 06:39 PM

I still feel like its more to do with the offense that was being run than the QBs. I mean look at some of the QBs around the league. Most are nothing special as far as tools they have, but they get it done because the offense they are in works for them.

I mean hell, look at Todd Collins. He is not good at all, but he knows his system very well and has looked like Tony Romo circa '06 this year so far for you guys. HE doesn't have any great tools but he can run the hell out of that offense and you guys are ballin' right now on offense.

Well the most important tool a QB has is his brain imo, knowing the offense up and down, reading the defense, managing the game, and making the right decisions. So maybe Collins is better in that regard than your average QB, but I agree that the system and other offensive players is critical to a QB being successful.

glenn__davis

12-31-2007, 06:40 PM

You know what's funny Rob, all of the Billick apologists suddenly saying things like "The grass is not always greener" or "Bisciotti is meddling like Angelos."

Actually I think I'm the only one who said that, and I don't care one way or the other about Billick.

ccbird

12-31-2007, 06:48 PM

Rofl at much of what you said in the NFL forum about the Ravens this year.

The Seahawks have made the playoffs 5 straight years, and were in the SB in 2005, that's very good. I've already explained the other two. Yeah, if you want to go back to the 2000 season, you may be ahead of most or all of those teams, but that's a long way to go back to determine who is the top franchises now, unless there has been consistent success since that time, which there obviously hasn't been.

Please, like what. I never once claimed them a Super Bowl contender. I said like in week 4 they had the feel of a mediocre 8-8 team and said that a few more times even when they had a winning record. The only thing I did was have them higher ranked higher than you in the power rankings but never by some big margin.

I am as hard on the Ravens and my teams as any fan can be. Look at my take on the Terps. I am far from a guy who wears tinted glasses.

mweb

12-31-2007, 06:55 PM

Please, like what. I never once claimed them a Super Bowl contender. I said like in week 4 they had the feel of a mediocre 8-8 team and said that a few more times even when they had a winning record. The only thing I did was have them higher ranked higher than you in the power rankings but never by some big margin.

I am as hard on the Ravens and my teams as any fan can be. Look at my take on the Terps. I am far from a guy who wears tinted glasses.

Fine, if you say so, I'm not going to look for quotes, I recall you and SG being the most critical of my placement of the Ravens and anything I said about them before and during the season. I don't see you being very hard on them with your top franchise comments either, but whatever, if you believe you're hard on them, fine.

Any response to what you laughed at while rolling on the floor?

66-70-83-??

12-31-2007, 07:04 PM

I don't get why everyone is so anti-Marty, is it just because he's older or hasn't won the big one? He did go 14-2 in 2006, and his team lead the league in scoring, I don't think "Marty Ball" is boring or lacking in results on the offensive end. Is it as exciting as if Mike Martz or someone like that took over, no, but it produces wins.

Who cares about leading the league in scoring ?

The object is to win the SB.

Billick had one Pro Bowl QB (McNair) for one healthy year (2006). What did he do with him ? Finished 11th in Passing in NFL, 12th in Offensive Scoring.

That is pretty darn good considering Jamal was holding back the offense last year AND the fact that we had the #1 defense. Having the defense we had for years has cost the Ravens offense. You can't have it all in the NFL with the salary cap.

Bottom line: Brian Billick is a very good coach who shelf life expired (lost the locker room).

He deserves respect not insults. He is taking the high road out of town.
He will have success in the NFL again. Hopefully, we find a new coach that is as good as he was.

mweb

12-31-2007, 07:11 PM

Who cares about leading the league in scoring ?

The object is to win the SB.

Billick had one Pro Bowl QB (McNair) for one healthy year (2006). What did he do with him ? Finished 11th in Passing in NFL, 12th in Offensive Scoring.

That is pretty darn good considering Jamal was holding back the offense last year AND the fact that we had the #1 defense. Having the defense we had for years has cost the Ravens offense. You can't have it all in the NFL with the salary cap.

Bottom line: Brian Billick is a very good coach who shelf life expired (lost the locker room).

He deserves respect not insults. He is taking the high road out of town.
He will have success in the NFL again. Hopefully, we find a new coach that is as good as he was.

Only the first two lines have to do with what I said, so I'll respond to that. Yes, Marty has not won a SB, but it's not like he's had a bunch of teams that were expected to win it all. He's a very good coach who hasn't won it all, that doesn't mean he can't win it all. I'm not saying he should be the Ravens first choice, but I also don't get why he's being bashed so much, unless it's just a desire to go with a young up and comer, which is fine.

66-70-83-??

12-31-2007, 07:11 PM

Billick's firing will essentially avert a mass exodus and lessen trade demands that were coming. There is a chance that McAlister, Suggs and Ogden all come back now that Billick is history.

Not according to what I heard on the radio.

I think it was Stan White who was saying that he talked to Ogden who said- it (coaching change) may prevent him from coming back. It is a whole new system, new terminology, etc. to have to learn at this point in his career". :confused:

If we are going to do a mini-rebuild (or full blown) it would be easier if Ogden retired.

If we are going for the SB- I hope he does come back.

cindyluvsbrady

12-31-2007, 07:15 PM

Why not get rid of Raven stadium? Id like to have my old O parking place back;)
:D Im just kidding
Dont kill me!:(

ccbird

12-31-2007, 07:34 PM

Fine, if you say so, I'm not going to look for quotes, I recall you and SG being the most critical of my placement of the Ravens and anything I said about them before and during the season. I don't see you being very hard on them with your top franchise comments either, but whatever, if you believe you're hard on them, fine.

Any response to what you laughed at while rolling on the floor?

If you are going to call me out you better back it up.

Here you go this was after week 4 when Baltimore was 2-2.

Pretty much a smack in the face to me on some teams this week. I have been giving some leeway and rope to teams like Philly and San Diego, Chicago and to an extent Carolina and Baltimore. At this point I can't and won't say these teams are playoff caliber. They have to prove themselves form here out.

Baltimore has got to win the next 3 games or they probably have no chance at the playoffs. They just have a 2006 Steelers vibe to me. One where they have the talent but the combination have losing 2-3 games to bad teams and a tough schedule will lead to an 8-8 record or so.

And after week 7 when they went to 4-2 on the season.

Baltimore's D was impressive but against a scrub Rams defense. The offense was still not good enough to beat any good teams. I just get the 2004 vibe that this team will beat who they should beat and lose to all the good teams. Still IMO, staring 8-8 or 9-7 right in the face. With that said, at this point they are in the top 10 in the power rankings

Even when they were winning games I never had hopes of them being anything special this year. We debated places in your rankings but that was about it.

And as far as top franchises I can't disagree more strongly if you really believe Seattle, San Diego or Jacksonville are clearly ahead of the Ravens.

mweb

12-31-2007, 07:36 PM

If you are going to call me out you better back it up.

Here you go this was after week 4 when Baltimore was 2-2.

And after week 7 when they went to 4-2 on the season.

Even when they were winning games I never had hopes of them being anything special this year. We debated places in your rankings but that was about it.

And as far as top franchises I can't disagree more strongly if you really believe Seattle, San Diego or Jacksonville are clearly ahead of the Ravens.

Well if you are going to call me out, then back it up, you haven't at all concerning the top franchises remark.

And now I will have to dig up some quotes to satisfy you, but not right now, gotta go. But at least you admitted you were wrong on the Ravens and some other teams, I'll give you credit for that. I was obviously wrong on many things as well, including the Ravens, I thought you guys overrated them, but obviously expected them to be much better than they ended up.

Hank Scorpio

12-31-2007, 07:44 PM

Not according to what I heard on the radio.

I think it was Stan White who was saying that he talked to Ogden who said- it (coaching change) may prevent him from coming back. It is a whole new system, new terminology, etc. to have to learn at this point in his career". :confused:

If we are going to do a mini-rebuild (or full blown) it would be easier if Ogden retired.

If we are going for the SB- I hope he does come back.

Totally disagree with the bolded part.

I don't think there is a scenario where we wouldn't benefit from having a healthy Jonathon Ogden on the left side of this line. He was easily our best offensive lineman this year at about 75%.

I have heard that the only way JO would consider coming back was if Billick relingquished the offensive playcalling.

I'm not saying that he will be back, just that he wouldn't have come back if BB was still calling the plays. I also heard that a bunch of other players wanted out if Billick was still leading the offense.

ccbird

12-31-2007, 08:03 PM

Well if you are going to call me out, then back it up, you haven't at all concerning the top franchises remark.

And now I will have to dig up some quotes to satisfy you, but not right now, gotta go. But at least you admitted you were wrong on the Ravens and some other teams, I'll give you credit for that. I was obviously wrong on many things as well, including the Ravens, I thought you guys overrated them, but obviously expected them to be much better than they ended up.

Here is one fairly respected man's opinion before the season started.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2814205

It all depends on what you factor into top organizations. I mean how far back do you factor in franchise history. Do you go back from the begining of the Superbowl era, just the last two decades, the last 10 years, 5 years, 3 year. You are going to get a different set of teams in all of those scenarios.

What about fan base and team stadium and facilities?

I said in my first post that I was going back to the start of the decade, 7 years, which I think is fair and I was factoring in player talent, FO and coaching talent and stablility, and state of the art facilities and stadium along with a great fan base. With those things I believe we are ahead of all of those teams.

You give me some guidelines and I'll debate with you. But even if you factor in just the last 3 or 4 years as long as you're not going strictly on team record those teams are not clearly ahead.

Sports Guy

12-31-2007, 08:09 PM

NE, Indy, Philly, Den, Baltimore and Pitt are the best organizations(all around) in the sport IMO.

Now, certain organizations on a year to year basis or a few years can jump into this discussion and right now, following a 5-11 season, with player unrest and now a coaching vacancy, other organizations could be put ahead of the Ravens.

mweb

12-31-2007, 08:35 PM

Here is one fairly respected man's opinion before the season started.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2814205

It all depends on what you factor into top organizations. I mean how far back do you factor in franchise history. Do you go back from the begining of the Superbowl era, just the last two decades, the last 10 years, 5 years, 3 year. You are going to get a different set of teams in all of those scenarios.

What about fan base and team stadium and facilities?

I said in my first post that I was going back to the start of the decade, 7 years, which I think is fair and I was factoring in player talent, FO and coaching talent and stablility, and state of the art facilities and stadium along with a great fan base. With those things I believe we are ahead of all of those teams.

You give me some guidelines and I'll debate with you. But even if you factor in just the last 3 or 4 years as long as you're not going strictly on team record those teams are not clearly ahead.

Funny that you need guidelines to debate me, but not to roll on the floor while laughing at me.:rolleyes:

Did you happen to read the reason the Ravens were ranked 5th going into this season? Obviously that can't be the reason anymore, and this horrible season would knock them down regardless.

I don't care about fanbase, and I barely care about stadium and facilities. Win/loss record(plus playoff appearances/wins) is by far the most important to me in this. Coaches, GM's, and the owner are obviously important as well, but their performance is judged mostly on win/loss record. Perceived future of the teams is the other main factor. Timespan wise, I'd say 5 years is fair.

mweb

12-31-2007, 08:52 PM

I'm not going to look through every thread to find quotes, and from the little I did look at, you(CCBird) weren't that bad with the Ravens, and I obviously said some stuff that looks dumb now as well, but here's the best quote I saw from the 3 threads I looked at:

"No way are the Packers a better team than the Ravens."

:D ;)

You were pretty down on the Pack back then. I just wish I got those insane odds you were willing to give on them making the SB.

However, in that same thread, I did say the Ravens would likely end up better than the Pack.:eek: :D

ccbird

12-31-2007, 10:13 PM

Funny that you need guidelines to debate me, but not to roll on the floor while laughing at me.:rolleyes:

Did you happen to read the reason the Ravens were ranked 5th going into this season? Obviously that can't be the reason anymore, and this horrible season would knock them down regardless.

I don't care about fanbase, and I barely care about stadium and facilities. Win/loss record(plus playoff appearances/wins) is by far the most important to me in this. Coaches, GM's, and the owner are obviously important as well, but their performance is judged mostly on win/loss record. Perceived future of the teams is the other main factor. Timespan wise, I'd say 5 years is fair.

Fine. You can dismiss fanbase and stadium and facilities but when you're trying to bring in FA talent or coaches it is going to be a factor.

Now onto the last 5 years. In this case Sea has a legit beef based on win/loss, playoff appearances and playoff success. However, not with SD or Jac. Both have a few more reg season wins over the time frame but neither has won a playoff game. Del Rio was on the hot seat coming into the season and has been a couple times over the last few years and SD just had a coaching change and took a step back compared to their '06 and '04 reg seasons.

Again, IMO a good organization goes beyond wins and losses. Was Dallas not a top 10 organization when they struggled earlier in the decade. I think they still were. You knew Jones was a good owner commited to winning and they had talent. It was only a matter of time before they got some good people in place and things turned around.

mweb

12-31-2007, 10:38 PM

Fine. You can dismiss fanbase and stadium and facilities but when you're trying to bring in FA talent or coaches it is going to be a factor.

Now onto the last 5 years. In this case Sea has a legit beef based on win/loss, playoff appearances and playoff success. However, not with SD or Jac. Both have a few more reg season wins over the time frame but neither has won a playoff game. Del Rio was on the hot seat coming into the season and has been a couple times over the last few years and SD just had a coaching change and took a step back compared to their '06 and '04 reg seasons.

Again, IMO a good organization goes beyond wins and losses. Was Dallas not a top 10 organization when they struggled earlier in the decade. I think they still were. You knew Jones was a good owner commited to winning and they had talent. It was only a matter of time before they got some good people in place and things turned around.

I think the vast majority of free agents consider fan base and facilities just about as much as I am. Money, chance to play, coaches/system, chance to win, and location are typically much more important to free agents.

SD has 7 more wins over the past 5 years, 13 more over the past 4, 6 more this year, pretty big difference, and I bet they'll win more next year as well, and they have a good shot at winning a playoff game on Sunday. They've also made the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years.

The Jags have 7 more wins over the past 4 years, only 2 over the past 5 due to a bad season in 2003, 6 more this year, and also have a good shot at winning a playoff game this coming weekend. I also like JAX next year over BAL.

Your biggest knocks against them are a coaching change and Del Rio was on the hot seat(obviously isn't now), well the Ravens obviously have to be knocked even more for that since Billick and his coaches were just fired.

Both of those teams have done better in recent years, had a much better 2007 season, have a coaching staff, and have at least as much talent imo. I don't see the Ravens side of this unless you're putting a lot of stock into facilities and fan base, which I don't really how these teams stack up.

Concerning the Cowboys, no they weren't that good of an organization in the late 90's, early 00's, they were old in many key spots, weren't very talented, and didn't have good coaching. They became a good organization again when they landed one of the best coaches ever, who also happens to be a good talent evaluator.

mweb

12-31-2007, 10:51 PM

Never had a good QB and too many injuries. Excuses but valid ones.

Too many injuries this year, but I don't think it's as good of an excuse when used over a 6 year time period. Plus, the Skins went through at least as much this year with the loss of Sean and all their injuries, yet they've persevered.

Never had a good QB, ok, well if that's the case, how can Ozzie be the best GM in the game? Now AO said it was more the coaching that was holding the QB's back. So it's either a big blemish on Ozzie or Billick or both.

ccbird

12-31-2007, 11:26 PM

I think the vast majority of free agents consider fan base and facilities just about as much as I am. Money, chance to play, coaches/system, chance to win, and location are typically much more important to free agents.

SD has 7 more wins over the past 5 years, 13 more over the past 4, 6 more this year, pretty big difference, and I bet they'll win more next year as well, and they have a good shot at winning a playoff game on Sunday. They've also made the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years.

The Jags have 7 more wins over the past 4 years, only 2 over the past 5 due to a bad season in 2003, 6 more this year, and also have a good shot at winning a playoff game this coming weekend. I also like JAX next year over BAL.

Your biggest knocks against them are a coaching change and Del Rio was on the hot seat(obviously isn't now), well the Ravens obviously have to be knocked even more for that since Billick and his coaches were just fired.

Both of those teams have done better in recent years, had a much better 2007 season, have a coaching staff, and have at least as much talent imo. I don't see the Ravens side of this unless you're putting a lot of stock into facilities and fan base, which I don't really how these teams stack up.

Concerning the Cowboys, no they weren't that good of an organization in the late 90's, early 00's, they were old in many key spots, weren't very talented, and didn't have good coaching. They became a good organization again when they landed one of the best coaches ever, who also happens to be a good talent evaluator.

I disagree, they were still a top organization and a few down years doesn't change that. Even so, the things you say they lacked the Ravens have. They have the overall talent and they have a guy regarded as a great talent evaluator. I've always said and will stick by the belief that a lack of a quality QB has held this team back and it is quite amazing that they have been a winning organization despite never having one above average QB. As long as they find a good QB, heck just an above average QB, I will happily take this organization over almost any other going forward.

mweb

12-31-2007, 11:30 PM

How have the Skins gone through more injury wise than us? It was a much tougher time for the team obviously when a teammate dies, but the injuries were much worse for us IMO.

I'm not trying to be a homer and think that all is better here in Ravenland....I want to be objective.

But we lost our QB, pro bowl LT, pro bowl TE, pro bowl DE/pass rusher, pro bowl corner, very good #2 corner, which means we lost our top 2 cornerbacks, as well as our 3rd for some time. Our big play WR...And I'm sure I'm missing some others. How do you compare that to the Skins injuries. I admit I'm not as familar as them as you but I don't see how they are missing the caliber and number of guys we were this year...

BTW...I'm not using it over a 6 year period. But this year the biggest, with 2005 a close second, the year was lost to to injuries #1 and QB play #2. Now, it's on both Ozzie and Billick for not finding a QB. That's a big negative. No question. But we are still likely playoff teams both years if not for the injuries. Those years we both had more injuries than happen to most NFL teams...We had injuries in 2004 that hurt us alot when we went 9-7 but no one is using that as an excuse because you can't expect to go injury free like we did last year. Unfortunatley for this team it's been one end of the extreme and hasn't been somewhere in the middle when it came to injuries.

I was combining the injuries and Sean's death, I don't think the Ravens have been through more than that.

Concerning your list:

-Boller was better than McNair, so no big deal.
-Ogden came into the year with an injury that typically lingers, so they should have been prepared for that, and was it you that was recently saying he's no longer a pro bowl player?
-Heap hurt, shocking.
-Yes, the rest of the guys you list were big losses, although Rolle is not a very good corner imo, and Clayton isn't as good as many teams big play WR's.

Skins list:
-RT and RG for almost the entire season, both near pro bowl players.
-Center for a few games, backup RT for much of the year.
-Moss, Randle-El missed games and have played through injuries through much of the year.
-Campbell, but not going to complain about that.
-Starting DE, DT, and OLB all missed a few games. The other starting OLB was knocked out for the season a few games ago.
-Rogers(was playing very well) knocked out for season in the 7th game.
-Smoot missed a few games, and I think Springs missed some time as well.
-Taylor was hurt, then shot.

I've been told countless times how great the Ravens depth is, and how bad the Skins is, so if that's the case, I guess coaching was the difference. I don't know.

mweb

12-31-2007, 11:37 PM

I disagree, they were still a top organization and a few down years doesn't change that. Even so, the things you say they lacked the Ravens have. They have the overall talent and they have a guy regarded as a great talent evaluator. I've always said and will stick by the belief that a lack of a quality QB has held this team back and it is quite amazing that they have been a winning organization despite never having one above average QB. As long as they find a good QB, heck just an above average QB, I will happily take this organization over almost any other going forward.

Why, just because of Jerry Jones?

I don't think the Ravens talent is as great as many on here do, and it seems like a few key guys will likely be lost this offseason. Good luck with the QB situation, how many years has it been a problem? Now with Billick gone, I might have more confidence in it getting solved though.

Out of the 3 teams I mentioned and the Ravens, who do you have the most confidence in next year? I know it's way too early to say with conviction, but I'll go with the Chargers or Jags.

ccbird

12-31-2007, 11:40 PM

I was combining the injuries and Sean's death, I don't think the Ravens have been through more than that.

Concerning your list:

-Boller was better than McNair, so no big deal.
-Ogden came into the year with an injury that typically lingers, so they should have been prepared for that, and was it you that was recently saying he's no longer a pro bowl player?
-Heap hurt, shocking.
-Yes, the rest of the guys you list were big losses, although Rolle is not a very good corner imo, and Clayton isn't as good as many teams big play WR's.

Skins list:
-RT and RG for almost the entire season, both near pro bowl players.
-Center for a few games, backup RT for much of the year.
-Moss, Randle-El missed games and have played through injuries through much of the year.
-Campbell, but not going to complain about that.
-Starting DE, DT, and OLB all missed a few games. The other starting OLB was knocked out for the season a few games ago.
-Rogers(was playing very well) knocked out for season in the 7th game.
-Smoot missed a few games, and I think Springs missed some time as well.
-Taylor was hurt, then shot.

I've been told countless times how great the Ravens depth is, and how bad the Skins is, so if that's the case, I guess coaching was the difference. I don't know.

QB play QB play QB play. Boller may have been slightly better than McNair '07 but nowhear near McNair '06. Collins saved your season. You know it and I know it. He was a systems guy and came in and played very well. I have every right to believe Campbell wasn't going to get your team to the playoffs.

ccbird

12-31-2007, 11:42 PM

Why, just because of Jerry Jones?

I don't think the Ravens talent is as great as many on here do, and it seems like a few key guys will likely be lost this offseason. Good luck with the QB situation, how many years has it been a problem? Now with Billick gone, I might have more confidence in it getting solved though.

Out of the 3 teams I mentioned and the Ravens, who do you have the most confidence in next year? I know it's way too early to say with conviction, but I'll go with the Chargers or Jags.

Right now as of this moment any of those teams. Now ask me again in September when I know who our head coach and starting QB is. My answer might be different.

mweb

12-31-2007, 11:46 PM

QB play QB play QB play. Boller may have been slightly better than McNair '07 but nowhear near McNair '06. Collins saved your season. You know it and I know it. He was a systems guy and came in and played very well. I have every right to believe Campbell wasn't going to get your team to the playoffs.

Can't I just say QB play QB play QB play in this debate about top organizations, and then have you guys realize that you're not a top organization? Unless your consider borderline top 10 to match that description? QB is a pretty big deal! If you can't come close to getting that right, you're going to have a hard time consistently winning football games.

Collins has been better, but I think they may have still made the playoffs without him, the defense has been great of late, the running game has picked it up somewhat, and the receivers are finally totally healthy.

mweb

12-31-2007, 11:50 PM

Right now as of this moment any of those teams. Now ask me again in September when I know who our head coach and starting QB is. My answer might be different.

So they're clearly better now, have been better in recent years, and you have more confidence in them next year, yet the Ravens are the better organization because...:confused:

mweb

12-31-2007, 11:52 PM

Now watch the Ravens draft Matt Ryan or someone else, and he becomes a HOF'er, but the defense falls apart.:D ;)

mweb

12-31-2007, 11:58 PM

BTW, shouldn't the loss of Savage be factored into this as well, it wasn't just Newsome who did the talent evaluating/team building. If the Ravens still had him and the QB who plays for his team, they'd be higher up on my list.

ccbird

01-01-2008, 12:00 AM

Can't I just say QB play QB play QB play in this debate about top organizations, and then have you guys realize that you're not a top organization? Unless your consider borderline top 10 to match that description? QB is a pretty big deal! If you can't come close to getting that right, you're going to have a hard time consistently winning football games.
Collins has been better, but I think they may have still made the playoffs without him, the defense has been great of late, the running game has picked it up somewhat, and the receivers are finally totally healthy.

For the most part here you aren't going to get an argument from me. Like I said before you can't be a consistent winner year in and year out unless you have good QB play. It has been the glaring weakness for this organization. However, don't you think this speaks volumes about the overall talent of the team when they can have a winning record, 4 playoff appearances and a Super Bowl title over the last 8 years despite never having a good QB.

mweb

01-01-2008, 12:13 AM

For the most part here you aren't going to get an argument from me. Like I said before you can't be a consistent winner year in and year out unless you have good QB play. It has been the glaring weakness for this organization. However, don't you think this speaks volumes about the overall talent of the team when they can have a winning record, 4 playoff appearances and a Super Bowl title over the last 8 years despite never having a good QB.

I think it speaks volumes for the team back in 2000, not so much now. The Ravens have obviously done a great job putting together defenses throughout the years, but not that good at creating complete teams.

ccbird

01-01-2008, 12:28 AM

So they're clearly better now, have been better in recent years, and you have more confidence in them next year, yet the Ravens are the better organization because...:confused:

Not knowing who the head coach is is huge. Not having a starting caliber NFL QB on our roster is huge. I I know the rest of the talent on this team is good, I know the GM is good, I have every right to believe the owner is good. It will take two good, smart decisions to make this team a Super Bowl contender year in and year out but at this point without knowing what those two decisions are I can't say Baltimore is in a better position than those teams.

Let me put it this way, there are many teams who I could put a certain caliber QB on and have a certain caliber coach coaching them and believe that doesn't make them a legit Superbowl contender. With the Ravens and the said QB and coach I believe they could be contenders.

Again though, this is all from a talent prespective whether it be FO, coaches or players. While that is certainly a huge factor in an overall organization it isn't the only thing. How good is the owner. Does he treat his employees well, does he provide the necessary money to max his teams potential. Are the team doctors and trainers top notch and are they looking out for the best interest of the player's and their careers. Is the team making money and is there any threat of relocation( definitely is in Jac BTW).

Hallas

01-01-2008, 05:03 AM

And what the hell is wrong with that? Get over yourself. This is not a funeral. We are getting a new HC and the old one is going to be making $15 million to do nothing over the next three years if he wants. Billick was not a good HC. He was fired, and you are darn right I'm going to rejoice.

I'm sorry, but it's not Billick's responsibility to be a gracious ex-HC. It was his job to be a good HC. The money he is making for nothing has absolutely nothing to do with how gracious he should be - that contract is on Bisciotti, not Billick. It's pretty classless for you to kick the dog while he's down and completely discount Billick's role in putting the Ravens on the football map, and for winning a Super Bowl.

Say what you want about his weaknesses (and they pretty much glared the past 2-3 years, so no one can say too much in defense of him when you talk about his playcalling on offense or his clock management abilities). He brought some very tangible, and positive qualities to the Ravens, and there should be no doubt that, as much as he is to blame for the failures of the current Ravens, he was also a major instrument in giving us a Super Bowl and putting the Ravens on the football map.

mweb

01-01-2008, 07:30 AM

Not knowing who the head coach is is huge. Not having a starting caliber NFL QB on our roster is huge. I I know the rest of the talent on this team is good, I know the GM is good, I have every right to believe the owner is good. It will take two good, smart decisions to make this team a Super Bowl contender year in and year out but at this point without knowing what those two decisions are I can't say Baltimore is in a better position than those teams.

Let me put it this way, there are many teams who I could put a certain caliber QB on and have a certain caliber coach coaching them and believe that doesn't make them a legit Superbowl contender. With the Ravens and the said QB and coach I believe they could be contenders.

Again though, this is all from a talent prespective whether it be FO, coaches or players. While that is certainly a huge factor in an overall organization it isn't the only thing. How good is the owner. Does he treat his employees well, does he provide the necessary money to max his teams potential. Are the team doctors and trainers top notch and are they looking out for the best interest of the player's and their careers. Is the team making money and is there any threat of relocation( definitely is in Jac BTW).

Yes, the Ravens could be very good to great if they made strong upgrades at QB and coach, so it's easy to identify their problems, I guess that's a plus.

I don't think we really know how good the Ravens or some other teams owners are, they are almost all willing to spend enough money, so this isn't like baseball, and I doubt many of us or any of us know much about how all of them treat their employees. Same with the next line in your last paragraph. I think every team makes money, and don't care much about the threat of relocation. Again, very small issues in this imo.

mweb

01-01-2008, 07:32 AM

Stadium and fan support is a big part of it as well. We are creating a history and tradition here in Baltimore that teams like Pitt, Dallas, and GB have....Sunday's in Baltimore are something very, very special. The stadium atmosphere is top knotch. That means something as well.

It's not a big part of this debate at all imo. You're also getting very carried away with that paragraph imo, and yes, I have been to Ravens games, and recently.

Darthy Katt

01-01-2008, 10:20 AM

Billick came from Minnesota, billed as an offensive guru, yet the Ravens suffered from a lack of balanced offensive play and a revolving door of quarterbacks. One Super Bowl does not a dynasty make. Bishotti wants to build a franchise into a dynasty, not a revoling door for over the hill or mediocre quarterbacks. I'm glad that Bishotti had the balls to eat the contract & do the right thing.

NewMarketSean

01-01-2008, 12:42 PM

I was away from a computer all weekend. I do have to admit it was troubling to hear that Billick was fired. Here is someone who turned this franchise into a laughinstock of the NFL and turned them into a respectable organization with a Super Bowl. Now, Billick wasn't the only person who did this but he was a big part of it. And I do feel bad for him, given the injuries he's had to deal with this season. But you could tell that the team wasn't responding to him like they used to so if this was the case, then he had to go. I do wish Billick the best of luck. It'll be strange to see someone different wearing the headset and roaming the sidelines next season.

birdsfan4ever

01-01-2008, 01:14 PM

I think this pretty much guarantees Ogden will retire

Tony-OH

01-01-2008, 01:23 PM

I'm sorry, but it's not Billick's responsibility to be a gracious ex-HC. It was his job to be a good HC. The money he is making for nothing has absolutely nothing to do with how gracious he should be - that contract is on Bisciotti, not Billick. It's pretty classless for you to kick the dog while he's down and completely discount Billick's role in putting the Ravens on the football map, and for winning a Super Bowl.

Say what you want about his weaknesses (and they pretty much glared the past 2-3 years, so no one can say too much in defense of him when you talk about his playcalling on offense or his clock management abilities). He brought some very tangible, and positive qualities to the Ravens, and there should be no doubt that, as much as he is to blame for the failures of the current Ravens, he was also a major instrument in giving us a Super Bowl and putting the Ravens on the football map.

If I'm classless because I'm happy that Billick is gone as the head coach, then you are clueless in reading comprehension. Billick is making $15 million not to coach the Ravens. I wish I could be as down as that. :rolleyes:

BTW, go back and read other threads before you spout your stupidity, I gave Billick his credit for bringing respectability back and for the super Bowl.

square634

01-01-2008, 01:29 PM

I think this pretty much guarantees Ogden will retire

I wouldn't say that.

Ryan also earned a nod from the offensive players. "He's familiar with us," Ogden said. "He knows the personnel on both sides of the ball, and I think he'd be an excellent head coach. So that'll be a nice selection if they did it. I wouldn't be opposed to it at all."

"Oh yeah, it will," Ogden said, laughing heartily. "A new system, a new coach, a double-edged sword. Some things we needed to change about the offense, but a whole change -- I don't know. I have no idea what they're going to do, who they're going to get. But I'll definitely wait and see. I'll probably try to come in and talk to whoever the new coach is and see what the situation is and kind of go from there."

I don't think those quotes sound like someone who is definitely going to retire, especially the first one. I think if Billick had stayed, Ogden would have retired because there would be no reason to expect anything to change.

birdsfan4ever

01-01-2008, 01:35 PM

I wouldn't say that.

I don't think those quotes sound like someone who is definitely going to retire, especially the first one. I think if Billick had stayed, Ogden would have retired because there would be no reason to expect anything to change.

That is a good point too, I was thinking that he would be more likely to stay with Billick because he knows what he is coming back too and knows he wouldnt have to go through a tough camp. Im sure whoever comes in will have at least a little bit tougher training camp than Billick. ;)