The reason dating is fun is because it STINKS

[JohnD]

As handsome and charming as I am, yes indeed I know, it can be tough. ;) Especially for a guy like me with long, odd hours that includes weekends, overnights, things of that ilk. I've had some tremendous stories over time, born mostly out of my rotten luck, but I can laugh at them. But this newest one is something else.

So roughly 11 months ago I'm hanging out at my neighborhood bar with my roommate, and eventually we get to talking to a few girls who are sitting next to us. One in particular was an attractive lawyer, you know, ok, but not beautiful, attractive, and we seemed to click with our personalities. The problem was she had a boyfriend. Oh well, I got her card, we exchanged some pleasant emails, but really that quickly faded away after a couple of months.

So last week, I'm at work one night when I get this email from an address I sort of recognized, but couldn't remember. Eventually it clicked though, I wrote her back, and then in her next email she mentioned several times breaking up with her bf from last year along with this, that, and everything else. A few emails later she's telling me to meet up with her and her sister that night in Baltimore, or that I should at least ask her out some time. Eventually I make plans with her, though all I remember by this point is that she was short with brown hair, and we decide to watch a football game on Sunday, since she likes football and wants to see the game and all of that.

Anyway, we watch the games, have a pretty good time, we split the bill (20 each with me also paying the tip), and are on our way at the end of the night. So far, so good, right? The next day I send an email just to mention how I had a good time, because in reality, it was pretty fun. I don't hear back and so today I send another one asking her about a few things we talked about, and then mentioning how I'm up for hanging out again, and ask her how she feels about it. This is the response, taken right from the email. Remember, this is from a girl who told me to ask her out, and who is a corporate defense lawyer with an office over looking the inner harbor which means I'm guessing she makes at least double what I do. This is her response with the bold emphasis my own....


I wldnt mind "hanging out" as friends. That's what friends do, rt? It just didn't seem like a date 2 me... I mean it's not like we had dinner, nor did u pay... So, if that's what u mean, then sure, we can hang out again sometime.

Again, that was her response. And really, if she didn't want to hang out, I wasn't going to lose any sleep over it. I wasn't "gaga" over her or anything. But that part there, that's what is uncalled for in my mind. So those of you who are married, or have long-standing girlfriends that you're head over heels for, count yourselves lucky. Because this is the kind of nonsense some of us are dealing with. And the a reason why I don't do dinner nor do I pay the whole way on the first date? Well, now you know it. :rolleyes:

[Jimbo81]

Hey man NBD right. This girl and I mean girl, obviously doesn't have a clue what is going on so don't worry. Like you said you're not "gaga". This one is just what I like to call a test. Somewhere along the line your Karma or whatever got a little out of whack and now you have to deal with the crazies. Believe me it is going to turn around quick and you wont even know it;)

Btw, Don't call her let her call you.

Listen to me, like I some kind of stud, phssh:o

[RShack]

She's hunting for somebody who will play his part properly in the Mating Dance. That's hard to do. In your little story here, we see 3 key features of the Mating Dance:
For each person you run into, it's predefined. Everybody has their own ideas about it. Problem is, most of us don't realize that we have our own ideas. Instead, people believe that their idea is really the Natural Order of Things, and if Person-X doesn't conform to it, well, that just proves that that Person-X is a loser, or not interested, or "not my type" or whatever. It's like there's some prefab template, and either you fit into it or don't. Evidently, her template specifies that you're supposed to pay regardless of how much money anybody has.
.
For each person you run into, the template is a friggin' secret. She doesn't know that the she's applying her own template. She doesn't realize that she's doing anything. She's imposing some criteria, but she doesn't even realize that. To her, she's just being normal, that's all. Which is what makes it a secret. It would be different if she *knew* that she was imposing some set of rules. If she knew it, then you could say, "May I please see the rules?". But since she doesn't realize that she's imposing rules, she would have zero idea what you're talking about. Which means it's like an invisible test. But it's invisible to both parties. You can't find out where the sins are until after you already committed one of them. Then, once you commit a sin that you didn't even know was a sin until later, well, oops, too bad, you're an asshole.
.
For each person, it's below the level of awareness. Everybody has their own ideas, but they didn't pick them. You sorta just wind-up programmed somehow about these things, but you don't even know how or why. It's like an accidental character-trait. Everybody is who they are, but nobody knows why. This is true about many things, but the whole sexual dimension of the Mating Dance means it's somehow more loaded, intense, mysterious, and irrational.
So, of course it doesn't make any sense. Everybody is walking around with their own individual, irrational, mostly-unconscious, predefined set of secret-and-invisible Mating Dance rules. What do you think is gonna happen? You think it's gonna make sense? Either you're lucky and find somebody who's a good fit with you or you don't. AFAIK, it's just more proof that God has a pretty warped sense of humor.

ps. This is why they used to have rules about marriage that had nothing to do with love or passion. But those days are gone. Now, everybody is trying to be happy. That's a much higher standard than society used to have.

[mweb]

I don't think it's fair that many women expect guys to still pay for most or all dates/trips etc. That made sense when guys made the vast majority of the money, but it doesn't now, certainly not when the women makes about as much or more than the guy does. Women's lib is fantastic, but some of these traditions that were in place largely because women weren't considered equal should go away now that they are. imo of course.

I'm a Howard Stern fan, and Robin Quivers comes to mind regarding this. She's going out with Jim Florentine(sp?), who is a pretty successful comedian, but surely has nowhere near the money Robin has, yet based on what she says on-air, he pays for everything, and she expects that. Hopefully she'll start paying more if the relationship becomes really serious.

[Witchy Chick]

When baroquen and I first started dating, I think we’d split dinner bills equally for the first few dates. After a while, it got to be that we alternated (he’d pick up one check, I’d get the next, lather/rinse/repeat). Now that we’re married and “his” money is also “my” money (and, I suppose, vice versa LOL) – we still alternate dinner checks. It's just fair and equitable that way.

And I don’t think she’s crazy or (necessarily) high-maintenance. I just think – going into the “date” - she had some specific expectations for it that were not met (through no fault of John’s). Men are from Mars, women are from Venus kinda thing.


I don't think it's fair that many women expect guys to still pay for most or all dates/trips etc. That made sense when guys made the vast majority of the money, but it doesn't now, certainly not when the women makes about as much or more than the guy does. Women's lib is fantastic, but some of these traditions that were in place largely because women weren't considered equal should go away now that they are. imo of course.

I agree. :D


Witchy

[ChrisP]

Maybe it's just me, but I would have paid. I've been married for almost 7 years and my wife was in college (while I was working FT) when we started dating. I paid for everything and never gave it a second thought. I'm happy I don't have to deal w/the whole dating anymore. That email screams "I HAVE ISSUES".

[TakebackOPACY]

Okay, so I'm the last one who should be giving advice. But I picked up something in what you wrote. That is, you revealed her "predefined, friggin' secret" 'rule' that she applied to this particular situation, so maybe you'll see it ahead of time the next time you come across it.

She wanted to go out with you. But she didn't ask you out. Instead, she suggested that you ask her out. Why? Because if you ask her out, you pay.

I am not saying that she got you to ask her out because she didn't want to pay. It's more likely that she didn't want to ask you out because then she doesn't know what to do.

In her mind:


"OMG, if I ask him out, do I pay? Does that imasculate him? Should I still let him pay? Should we split it? What do I do?"

"I know. I'll get him to ask me out. That way, I know what to expect. The guy pays for the first date."

Actually, this is probably an internal conversation she had a long time ago, and now she's on automatic.

Oh, and she read way to much into your words, "hang out". She read that you didn't want to ask her out on a date. Because if you say that, then the 'rule' is, you pay. Her rules are defined in those words that are used to arrange the 'date'. Or maybe because you don't like her that way.

[TakebackOPACY]

Okay, so the 'rule' that I've used is that I pay for the first date. I'm not stuck to the rule. I don't care. But I figure for the first date, I can't go wrong with that.

Years ago, I had a conversation with one of my best female friends. She pointed out that the woman spends more on her hair, more on her clothes, more on everything else to go out on that date. So the guy should at least pay.

The problems are:


I have trouble transitioning to a more financially reasonable solution. I have occasionally set a tone on a first date that I won't be able to maintain financially. This one's no big deal, but I'm not sure what to do if she offers to split the bill. That is, her "predefined, below the level of awareness" rule may be that she should offer and I should insist on paying (seriously, this is probably what John faced in his example), or she may be put off if I don't let her pay. Again, I don't care one way or the other.

Any thoughts?

[bgfield]

The fact that she spells you as "u" and to as "2" says to me you're better off.

It's not the 80's. Everyone should be able to type at a pretty moderate speed by now. There's no reason to be taking such shortcuts anymore. Internet shorthand can make any person (in this case, a lawyer!) seem like a dimwitted 12 year old.

Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt your rant with my own. Sounds like she's a proper beeyatch. Better to find out now than when things may have gotten serious!

[bgfield]

Years ago, I had a conversation with one of my best female friends. She pointed out that the woman spends more on her hair, more on her clothes, more on everything else to go out on that date. So the guy should at least pay.

Wow, what a friggin' copout. Don't get me wrong - I'm more than willing to pay for a date (as long as it isn't assumed that I'll ALWAYS pay, I'm not made of money!), but what a lame justification. What if a couple goes on a date once a week and the guy ends up paying a $30-40 bill every time? Is a woman really spending THAT much on her makeup and hair and clothes? :rolleyes:

[ledzepp8]

Wow, what a sketchy biatch. Thinking about it you probably should have paid, but the way you described it it sounds like you all just made plans to hang out. I mean if you had called/emailed and her and said can I take you to dinner that would have been one thing, but you were basically friends and she said "we should hang out sometime". There's no way you know that is a "date" for sure. I like what Mweb said though, it's time for more women to accept responsibility in the payment process of dating. This isn't the 50s or 60s when women had not jobs and were just waiting to find a guy to marry and keep house and this isn't the 70s and 80s when most women were waitresses. It may not be quite equal but women are making money like men, there's no reason they shouldn't share the bill on a date...especially when it's presented as two pals just hanging out.

[TakebackOPACY]

Wow, what a friggin' copout. Don't get me wrong - I'm more than willing to pay for a date (as long as it isn't assumed that I'll ALWAYS pay, I'm not made of money!), but what a lame justification. What if a couple goes on a date once a week and the guy ends up paying a $30-40 bill every time? Is a woman really spending THAT much on her makeup and hair and clothes? :rolleyes:

Ehh, maybe. The conversation was specifically about the first date, though. And not about an ongoing relationship. I dated her on-and-off, a lot more off than on, from HS senior year through a couple years after college. Our problems weren't related to who pays for dinner.

[bobmc]

The mating/dating process is an evolution. You learned something from this and you move on. You don't whine and rant - I mean you don't gain anything by these activities except draw attention here ;) ). You mark it down and you know a little more about "Venus", as WC said. We are all different peeps. When you find Numero Uno, it will be worth the trip. It took me three marriages but I finally reached Nirvana! In some cases before, I was the jerk and in some cases they were the beeahtch but I learned.

Martian

[Mad Mark]

Thanks, John. A timely reminder that thoughts such as "well, if you wanted the bathroom painted, why am I the one stuck doing it" should be pushed well to the back of the mind, because, clearly "I'm too old for this (dating) $@#t!" :rolleyes:

[theonestevewh]

Bah, paying the check on the first few dates is some big thing now and frankly it's something that shouldn't even be worried about. You're trying to find your soulmate and it's kind of hard if people let little things like the check get in the way. I always make it clear when I make the date arrangements that I'm paying so there is no confusion. I still believe in paying for the first dates because to me it's not a monetary issue rather a sign that I like your company. Women, as all men should know, have trouble communicating ;). Seriously though, unless it was communicated that you were responsible for the check then she's got no right to assume so. Welcome to the wonderful world of 21st Century dating, now serving over 6 BILLION!

[33rd&Ellerslie]

John, I am sorry you had a bad go of it. I have always felt, well my Dad has long told me to feel, that I should be honored each and every time a woman agrees to spend some of her time with me. I am not important to anyone but my family and friends, but I do feel that my time is valuable and I try to respect that in everyone else.

My wife and I flirted around for a while, like most folks do I guess, until one day she came straight out and said, "You know what? You should ask me out sometime; I bet we would have fun." Well, you could've knocked me over with a cat whisker; I am not sure the grin has come off my face some 9 years later.

Of course, as Shack said I had some not-so-secret templates that I applied to each date; I wanted her to love baseball, to believe Cal Ripken was the greatest Shortstop of all time, no offense to Ernie Banks; I, of course held the expectation that she would find all of my jokes hilarious and would look upon me as witty, charming and similar in appearance to Brad Pitt, the latter taking a lot, and I mean a whole lot, of Sangria!

I paid for everything, not out of expectation but out of the privilege of her time and most importantly, her company. To this day I have no idea what in the world she sees in me; I am the luckiest man in the world. She didn't fit my template at all; didn't care one bit about baseball, spelled Ripken with an "in" instead of "en", thought my jokes were stupid and really, I look more like Earnest Borgnine that Brad Pitt, but when she laughs or smiles, when she looks me in the eye and doesn't have to say a word, it really is amazing!

I feel your pain, John, dating stinks sometimes, but I promise you that there is nothing in the world better than finding that one person who makes everything in your life better, simply because they are there and there aren't enough dinner checks or movie tickets that I can ever pay for to thank her for that. Oh and I ruined one of her sweaters yesterday doing the laundry and she still loves me, now there is a test!

[ledzepp8]

Bah, paying the check on the first few dates is some big thing now and frankly it's something that shouldn't even be worried about. You're trying to find your soulmate and it's kind of hard if people let little things like the check get in the way. I always make it clear when I make the date arrangements that I'm paying so there is no confusion. I still believe in paying for the first dates because to me it's not a monetary issue rather a sign that I like your company. Women, as all men should know, have trouble communicating ;). Seriously though, unless it was communicated that you were responsible for the check then she's got no right to assume so. Welcome to the wonderful world of 21st Century dating, now serving over 6 BILLION!

Wha? Women? Communication? That's funny.

J/K ladies.;)

[bgfield]

Also, I want to add: if she wanted you to "ask her out" then why did she want her sister along? Nevermind who paid the tab, a first date - if that's what she was hoping this might be - should not include one's sibling!

[ledzepp8]

Also, I want to add: if she wanted you to "ask her out" then why did she want her sister along? Nevermind who paid the tab, a first date - if that's what she was hoping this might be - should not include one's sibling!

I'm not sure if when John and her went out that her sister was there. I think it was in the email that she told him to come meet her and her sister out one night or to ask her out sometime. Because he says something like, "I eventually asked her out". But yeah you're point remains the same, if her first attempts at hanging out with John as a single woman involved her sister being there, what the hell is he supposed to think?

[JohnD]

No no, it was just us. And I'm not some cheapo afraid to pay for thins. I just usually like to know a bit about the girl before I pick up tabs and stuff. This was only the second time I'd ever seen her. And it was just the attitude itself in that one line that bothered me. For the most part though, trust me, I'm just getting a laugh out of it all now. I had fun the other night, but oh well!

[ScottieBaseball]

Domen, you strike me as about as straight a shooter as there is. I think that might throw the ladies a curve ball, like they feel like you need to be "figured out." It sounds to me like she read WAY too much into splitting the check.

It was the 2nd time you met. Cut your losses. Move on. There are too many fish in the sea that have yet to experience your magic. :D

[JohnD]

Try to understand, try to understand, try try try to understaaaaaaaaand...... ;)

[CrimsonTribe]

Them womens is crazy. Just ask my girlfriend, she'll vouch for that.

[cindyluvsbrady]

As handsome and charming as I am, yes indeed I know, it can be tough. ;) Especially for a guy like me with long, odd hours that includes weekends, overnights, things of that ilk. I've had some tremendous stories over time, born mostly out of my rotten luck, but I can laugh at them. But this newest one is something else.

So roughly 11 months ago I'm hanging out at my neighborhood bar with my roommate, and eventually we get to talking to a few girls who are sitting next to us. One in particular was an attractive lawyer, you know, ok, but not beautiful, attractive, and we seemed to click with our personalities. The problem was she had a boyfriend. Oh well, I got her card, we exchanged some pleasant emails, but really that quickly faded away after a couple of months.

So last week, I'm at work one night when I get this email from an address I sort of recognized, but couldn't remember. Eventually it clicked though, I wrote her back, and then in her next email she mentioned several times breaking up with her bf from last year along with this, that, and everything else. A few emails later she's telling me to meet up with her and her sister that night in Baltimore, or that I should at least ask her out some time. Eventually I make plans with her, though all I remember by this point is that she was short with brown hair, and we decide to watch a football game on Sunday, since she likes football and wants to see the game and all of that.

Anyway, we watch the games, have a pretty good time, we split the bill (20 each with me also paying the tip), and are on our way at the end of the night. So far, so good, right? The next day I send an email just to mention how I had a good time, because in reality, it was pretty fun. I don't hear back and so today I send another one asking her about a few things we talked about, and then mentioning how I'm up for hanging out again, and ask her how she feels about it. This is the response, taken right from the email. Remember, this is from a girl who told me to ask her out, and who is a corporate defense lawyer with an office over looking the inner harbor which means I'm guessing she makes at least double what I do. This is her response with the bold emphasis my own....



Again, that was her response. And really, if she didn't want to hang out, I wasn't going to lose any sleep over it. I wasn't "gaga" over her or anything. But that part there, that's what is uncalled for in my mind. So those of you who are married, or have long-standing girlfriends that you're head over heels for, count yourselves lucky. Because this is the kind of nonsense some of us are dealing with. And the a reason why I don't do dinner nor do I pay the whole way on the first date? Well, now you know it. :rolleyes:

Poor John:( You need a nice O girl!:)

[Harford Bird]

"I got news for you: handicapped people, they don't even want to park there! They wanna be treated just like anybody else! That's why, those spaces are always empty."

"He's right! It's the same thing with the feminists. You know, they want everything to be equal, everything! But when the check comes, where are they?"

[TGO]

Alright, alright! We'll buy her a wheelchair! Wheelchairs, engagement presents...IT NEVER ENDS!

[MChance]

I take my dates to the McDonald's drive thru for something off the dollar menu. If I'm feeling generous, I'll also get them a $.99 ice cream cone. Chicks like ice cream.

[cindyluvsbrady]

I take my dates to the McDonald's drive thru for something off the dollar menu. If I'm feeling generous, I'll also get them a $.99 ice cream cone. Chicks like ice cream.

LOL:D and your rich!!!!!

[Miller192]

I'd write back to her and set up another "date" at some really nice place like Charleston or something with the understanding that I would pay. Except I wouldn't show up.

I'm just saying...

Don't sweat it. I split the tab with this girl I REALLY liked 5 years ago on our first date. She, now my wife, just put our 4 month old to bed after his late night feeding. Hang in there!

[oriolesacox]

This is why you gotta find yourself a sugamama. lol

I was about to start my own rant about my significant other and how she's been driving me up the wall as of late but after reading this, I guess it isn't that bad. I just felt like crying a bit. Thanks lol

[Cavspider]

My take for what its worth...

She obviously had you on the brain cause she initiated contact after a significant delay. A huge, HUGE, ego gamble on her part. She laid her soul bare. She asked you to ask her out. What more can a traditiional girl say that says she is interested, really interested.

And you respond with a date where you split the check at the end? That means, and I think almost universally means, "Eh, you are ok but I'm not romantically interested, friend material is all." It means that despite your email about your good time. And it probably is just reflecting your lack of gaganess over her.

Her response to your email appears a well thought out response after several days where she is likely thinking "WTH is this guy doing playing with me. No way am I going out on an emotional limb like that again...clueless jerk." She is attempting to clarify the nature of your potential relationship by characterizing it and stressing "hangin out" as friends. You take her words literally. But, IMO, she is probing your intentions with serious reservations at this point after being emotionally gutted by you on your "date".

If you really were still interested, you could simply say something to her like: "Hey, sorry for any miscommunication but I really like you and would like to take you out on a real date. I know maybe you think I am a jerk but you seem like a really special person and I'd like a second chance at this." You go on the emotional limb this time and pull your head out of...the sand, yea that's it...well you get the idea.

If you cant see that, well the dating thing will be a long and lonely road.