Read this and weep for our country

[Mad Mark]

In the Heath Ledger thread (link) (http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57944&page=3), a certain "religious" group was mentioned.
In the maelstrom of unnecessary information we're bombarded with every day, stuff like this gets processed, then pushed out the other ear by the latest batch of inane drivel.
Read this (link) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church), and weep for our country. Then be thankful that this group seems to have topped out at 100 or so rapidly inbreeding idiots.
I don't like to quote the Nazi's all that much, but to call this lot "useless eaters" would be high praise indeed, compared to what they ought to be called.

[Pushmonkey]

In the Heath Ledger thread (link) (http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57944&page=3), a certain "religious" group was mentioned.
In the maelstrom of unnecessary information we're bombarded with every day, stuff like this gets processed, then pushed out the other ear by the latest batch of inane drivel.
Read this (link) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church), and weep for our country. Then be thankful that this group seems to have topped out at 100 or so rapidly inbreeding idiots.
I don't like to quote the Nazi's all that much, but to call this lot "useless eaters" would be high praise indeed, compared to what they ought to be called.


This is where the First Amendment make our Country great. I think all but those 100 people would agree with their message, but at least they have that right. That is what this great Country of ours sticks its neck out and gets blamed for a lot the worlds ills.

[bgfield]

The thing with them is they ARE just idiots. One could call them hate mongers, but in their heads they truly believe they're doing good. I saw a special on them and they were just completely oblivious to the fact that they were hurting people. They thought that by showing up to funerals of fallen soldiers they were helping to spread a good message, that they were doing the surviving family and friends a favor.

As far as religious extremists go, I'll take these obnoxious idiots over those who think blowing themselves up in a crowded area will send them to heaven. That said, one of these days this group is going to piss off the wrong person and they'll have a lot more to fear than the "wrath of God".

[NewMarketSean]

The thing with them is they ARE just idiots. One could call them hate mongers, but in their heads they truly believe they're doing good. I saw a special on them and they were just completely oblivious to the fact that they were hurting people. They thought that by showing up to funerals of fallen soldiers they were helping to spread a good message, that they were doing the surviving family and friends a favor.

As far as religious extremists go, I'll take these obnoxious idiots over those who think blowing themselves up in a crowded area will send them to heaven. That said, one of these days this group is going to piss off the wrong person and they'll have a lot more to fear than the "wrath of God".

If that is the case then they need to be locked up for insanity. If I truly think mercy killing homeless people is "doing good", that makes me crazy and I need to be off the streets. I know what they are doing is not the same, but just because they think they are doing good does not make them any less crazy.

These people should not be allowed to protest at private functions like funerals and I hope they get what they deserve some time in the near future.

[bgfield]

If that is the case then they need to be locked up for insanity. If I truly think mercy killing homeless people is "doing good", that makes me crazy and I need to be off the streets. I know what they are doing is not the same, but just because they think they are doing good does not make them any less crazy.

These people should not be allowed to protest at private functions like funerals and I hope they get what they deserve some time in the near future.

It's not only not the same, it's totally different. Killing and speaking out against something are two completely different things. They aren't causing physical harm. And I doubt they're actually AT the funerals, probably just outside the funeral home somewhere on public property where they, sadly, have the right to protest.

I'm not trying to defend these people, just pointing out that they are doing this with "good" intentions. I still hope someone torches their church with all the members inside someday though.

[FollyFollyToo]

They are lawyers, and they're hoping that either a) someone denies them the right to protest, thereby infringing on their civil rights, or b) someone does serious physical damage to their property or their bodies. Either of these scenarios would result in a huge pay day.

I've also heard a theory that they're paid by left-wing radicals to make right-wing Christians look bad. Granted, it's a stretch, but who knows.

[NewMarketSean]

It's not only not the same, it's totally different. Killing and speaking out against something are two completely different things. They aren't causing physical harm. And I doubt they're actually AT the funerals, probably just outside the funeral home somewhere on public property where they, sadly, have the right to protest.

I'm not trying to defend these people, just pointing out that they are doing this with "good" intentions. I still hope someone torches their church with all the members inside someday though.

I'm pointing out that just because someone thinks they're doing good, doesn't mean that they have the right to do it.

[Danielos38]

How can these idiots be protected by the Constitution?

Last time I checked, hate speech and fighting words were not protected under the Constitution...

Definition of figting words... (per wikipedia)

The fighting words doctrine, in United States constitutional law, is a limitation to freedom of speech as granted in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. In its 9-0 decision, Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942), the U.S. Supreme Court established the doctrine and held that "insulting or 'fighting words', those that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace" are among the "well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech [which] the prevention and punishment of...have never been thought to raise any constitutional problem."

Seems to me that this speech could easily be contested in the Supreme Court. I guess I must be wrong though because I'm sure someone a ton smarter than me has already thought about it and decided that it's protected.

[sakata_catching]

I've also heard a theory that they're paid by left-wing radicals to make right-wing Christians look bad. Granted, it's a stretch, but who knows.

This idea pops up whenever a far fringe group emerges and embarrasses a larger movement as a whole. The politics are reversed, but in principle the same conspiracy theory was floated re: the Symbionese Liberation Army; ie., they were created and controlled by the CIA in order to discredit the New Left. (http://www.whale.to/b/constantine6.html)

At any rate, my favorite anti-Phelps site. (http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/)

[Mark Carver]

This is where the First Amendment make our Country great. I think all but those 100 people would agree with their message, but at least they have that right. That is what this great Country of ours sticks its neck out and gets blamed for a lot the worlds ills.

There is a right of the 1st Amendment, and than there is the denying the right of others to a peaceful funeral/memorial service. Remember the New Year automobile killing of 4 Maryland kids and their mother by a DWI driver in Ohio?

Memorial of lost (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_county/bal-md.co.funeral09jan09,0,5177717.story)



Wearing a head brace, Daniel Griffin Jr. stood in front of friends and relatives filling a Northeast Baltimore church yesterday to remember his wife, Bethany, and four children and stepchildren killed in an Ohio highway collision that police say was caused by a drunken driver.
.
.
The lives of Bethany L. Griffin, 36; Jordan Griffin, 10; Vadie Griffin, 8 weeks; Haley Burkman, 10; and Lacie Burkman, 7, were celebrated in a memorial service yesterday, as friends and family stood to share their memories.
.
.
Yesterday's memorial service was the scene of a demonstration by a group that was recently ordered to pay millions for protesting at the Westminster funeral of a soldier killed in Iraq.

Three members of the Kansas-based Westboro Baptist Church, known for protests at military funerals, were demonstrating about a block from the church in the 7000 block of Harford Road.

The demonstrators said the deaths are God's retaliation against the community for the $11 million award by a jury in Baltimore against the Kansas group.

[Pushmonkey]

There is a right of the 1st Amendment, and than there is the denying the right of others to a peaceful funeral/memorial service. Remember the New Year automobile killing of 4 Maryland kids and their mother by a DWI driver in Ohio?

Memorial of lost (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_county/bal-md.co.funeral09jan09,0,5177717.story)

I did not say that I agree with the message that is delivered. It actually make me ill to think that people believe what they spew out of their uneducated brainwashed minds.

[Mark Carver]

It's not only not the same, it's totally different. Killing and speaking out against something are two completely different things. They aren't causing physical harm. And I doubt they're actually AT the funerals, probably just outside the funeral home somewhere on public property where they, sadly, have the right to protest.

I'm not trying to defend these people, just pointing out that they are doing this with "good" intentions. I still hope someone torches their church with all the members inside someday though.

Obviously a jury found that they were causing an 'invasion of privacy and infliction of emotional distress', when they were found guilty and ordered to pay $11m to the family of Lance Cpl. Matthew A. Snyder when they showed up at his funeral displaying "God Hates You" signs.

$11 Million Awarded in Funeral Protest Suit (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/31/AR2007103102278.html)

I for one think governments intrude into too much of our lives, but not in this case.


As a result of the pickets, several state legislatures have passed bills restricting protests at funerals or tightening existing limits, and lawmakers in more than a dozen other states are considering such measures, the Associated Press said.

[BaltimoreTerp]

There is a right of the 1st Amendment, and than there is the denying the right of others to a peaceful funeral/memorial service. Remember the New Year automobile killing of 4 Maryland kids and their mother by a DWI driver in Ohio?

Memorial of lost (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_county/bal-md.co.funeral09jan09,0,5177717.story)

That was my church (though I don't think I knew any of the family), and as amusing as I find the idea of three people holding signs in the Rite-Aid parking lot across Harford Road (why where they across the street? Because NO ONE can cross Harford Road with its traffic! Or, insert your own "chicken" joke here), I would have loved to go over and express my freedom of speech by insulting them in every crude way possible. Preferably away from any press.

[BaltimoreTerp]

It's not only not the same, it's totally different. Killing and speaking out against something are two completely different things. They aren't causing physical harm. And I doubt they're actually AT the funerals, probably just outside the funeral home somewhere on public property where they, sadly, have the right to protest.

I'm not trying to defend these people, just pointing out that they are doing this with "good" intentions. I still hope someone torches their church with all the members inside someday though.

Oh, I don't think anyone would believe they are doing it with "good" intentions, even if they believe what they spew.

If they do, it means they are trying to shame and humiliate people into their point-of-view, which isn't good in any way.

[Witchy Chick]

It's not only not the same, it's totally different. Killing and speaking out against something are two completely different things. They aren't causing physical harm. And I doubt they're actually AT the funerals, probably just outside the funeral home somewhere on public property where they, sadly, have the right to protest.

I'm not trying to defend these people, just pointing out that they are doing this with "good" intentions. I still hope someone torches their church with all the members inside someday though.



That was my church (though I don't think I knew any of the family), and as amusing as I find the idea of three people holding signs in the Rite-Aid parking lot across Harford Road (why where they across the street? Because NO ONE can cross Harford Road with its traffic! Or, insert your own "chicken" joke here), I would have loved to go over and express my freedom of speech by insulting them in every crude way possible. Preferably away from any press.

I may be mistaken, but I believe a number of families are filing restraining orders to keep these kooks as far away from the actual location of funerals as legally possible.


Witchy

[CamdenChick]

I HATE THOSE GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They protested a funeral here a couple weeks back....but I can't for the life of me remember who it was. I think it was a police officer. On their site, they have a list, like a schedule of different protests they're going to do. Sometimes I'm so tempted to show up at one with a baseball bat and a flame thrower. If I knew how to work one.... They protested the National Firefighters Memorial in October too. I HATE THEM!!!!!!!!!!!

[blueberryale77]

I HATE THOSE GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They protested a funeral here a couple weeks back....but I can't for the life of me remember who it was. I think it was a police officer. On their site, they have a list, like a schedule of different protests they're going to do. Sometimes I'm so tempted to show up at one with a baseball bat and a flame thrower. If I knew how to work one.... They protested the National Firefighters Memorial in October too. I HATE THEM!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually I'm really surprised somebody hasn't done that already.

[CamdenChick]

Dude, if anyone EVER has the itch to go protest THEIR protest, although I dunno if it'd actually do anything -- gimme a hollar. I'll be there with bells on. Well, maybe explosive ones..... *wink*

[blueberryale77]

Dude, if anyone EVER has the itch to go protest THEIR protest, although I dunno if it'd actually do anything -- gimme a hollar. I'll be there with bells on. Well, maybe explosive ones..... *wink*

Problem is, since they protest funerals, counter-protesting them would only further infringe on the privacy of the grieving family. It's not quite the same as when neo-Nazis have a random white power rally and the punks and anti-racist skinheads show up with their brass knuckles.

[Mad Mark]

Surely, some South or Central American country that has made the transition from dictatorship to democracy has a surplus water cannon they'd be willing to move cheap! Imagine the fun...:D

[ChipTait]

Ah, KANSAS...

The only state that makes Texas look like it has a clue.

See here (http://www.statesman.com/search/content/news/stories/local/01/24/0124creation.html)...

[cwalker3]

Problem is, since they protest funerals, counter-protesting them would only further infringe on the privacy of the grieving family. It's not quite the same as when neo-Nazis have a random white power rally and the punks and anti-racist skinheads show up with their brass knuckles.

You're right, counter-protesting wouldn't be appropriate. But how about a drive-by flamethrowing? It would be quick and non-intrusive to the funeral. Let me know when you're ready Camden Chick and we'll flip for who drives and who hits the switch on the flame thrower. And I'll even provide the truck.

Seriously though, these people are just so lucky to be living in the USA. In so many other countries they would have been dealt with quickly and silently in the dead of night, never to be heard from again.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Problem is, since they protest funerals, counter-protesting them would only further infringe on the privacy of the grieving family. It's not quite the same as when neo-Nazis have a random white power rally and the punks and anti-racist skinheads show up with their brass knuckles.

Plus it gives them publicity, which is all they want.

That's why I would go up to them and just insult them and their opinions in every possible way. I'd do it from a few feet away, so as to not be directly intimidating, and in a calm voice that would not be very loud and draw attention from anyone other then the intended targets.

At worst, I get a few things off my chest and feel a little better. At best, they initiate something physical, which could lead to a real criminal case against them, plus a legitimate lawsuit that could shut them down (or at least drain their resources).

[ScottieBaseball]

Westboro Baptist Church is to Christianity what Osama Bin Laden is to Islam.

I'm a Christian and am an active, happy member of a Baptist Church. What bothers me about Westboro is people see these misguided fools, point at their TV's, and say, "See? THAT'S why I don't go to church/don't read the Bible/avoid those crazy born-again neighbors of ours!"

The truth is the actions and teachings of the Westboro pastor and his congregation don't fall in line with anything 99.9% of the other Baptist Churches around the world.

As much as I disagree with their actions and I would never personally condone protesting a funeral, it's their right (within the law) just the same as it is anyone protesting the war in Iraq or picketing for the impeachment of our current president and/or vice-president.

[square634]

Westboro Baptist Church is to Christianity what Osama Bin Laden is to Islam.

I'm a Christian and am an active, happy member of a Baptist Church. What bothers me about Westboro is people see these misguided fools, point at their TV's, and say, "See? THAT'S why I don't go to church/don't read the Bible/avoid those crazy born-again neighbors of ours!"

The truth is the actions and teachings of the Westboro pastor and his congregation don't fall in line with anything 99.9% of the other Baptist Churches around the world.

As much as I disagree with their actions and I would never personally condone protesting a funeral, it's their right (within the law) just the same as it is anyone protesting the war in Iraq or picketing for the impeachment of our current president and/or vice-president.

See, the thing with me is, the Westboro people are crazy (just like the crazies of all religions), but they actually aren't as hypocritical as some more casual religious people. The fact of the matter is, a lot of the stuff they say in their beliefs actually is what is written in the Old Testament! I was raised Jewish and Synagogue is really boring, so I would read the translation of the Old Testament, and I was literally appalled at some of the stuff said in it. Some things were as simple as brutal animal sacrifices, but other things were worse, such as God scorning Saul for refusing to commit genocide, or having Korach swallowed up by the Earth and his friends, relatives, and followers incinerated for daring to say that all people, including women and children, should be considered equal whether they are in the priestly caste or not.

So basically, I could not reconcile my own morals with those of one of the supposed holy texts of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, unless I took it as an allegorical fable written in a different time period and context instead of at face value. Basically, I felt that my choices were to:

A) Abandon my morals.

or

B) Dismiss the Torah as false.

Once I chose option B, I could no longer believe in the religion, especially because a lot of the leaders at my synagogue and Hebrew school teachers said some of the most outrageously hypocritical and ignorant things I have ever heard.

There are some people I have met that believe the Old Testament is the veritable word of God and should be taken literally, but who also believe in, for example, gay rights (even though Leviticus 18:22 is pretty clear on the subject). These are the biggest hypocrites, IMO.

[ScottieBaseball]

See, the thing with me is, the Westboro people are crazy (just like the crazies of all religions), but they actually aren't as hypocritical as some more casual religious people. The fact of the matter is, a lot of the stuff they say in their beliefs actually is what is written in the Old Testament! I was raised Jewish and Synagogue is really boring, so I would read the translation of the Old Testament, and I was literally appalled at some of the stuff said in it. Some things were as simple as brutal animal sacrifices, but other things were worse, such as God scorning Saul for refusing to commit genocide, or having Korach swallowed up by the Earth and his friends, relatives, and followers incinerated for daring to say that all people, including women and children, should be considered equal whether they are in the priestly caste or not.

So basically, I could not reconcile my own morals with those of one of the supposed holy texts of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, unless I took it as an allegorical fable written in a different time period and context instead of at face value. Basically, I felt that my choices were to:

A) Abandon my morals.

or

B) Dismiss the Torah as false.

Once I chose option B, I could no longer believe in the religion, especially because a lot of the leaders at my synagogue and Hebrew school teachers said some of the most outrageously hypocritical and ignorant things I have ever heard.

There are some people I have met that believe the Old Testament is the veritable word of God and should be taken literally, but who also believe in, for example, gay rights (even though Leviticus 18:22 is pretty clear on the subject). These are the biggest hypocrites, IMO.

Have you read the New Testament? It doesn't dismiss the Torah/Old Testament, but puts it in historical perspective. It's not hypocritical and I'm sorry you seem to have soured on your faith.

I haven't been directed to make burnt offerings or anything since joining my church for instance.

[Boy Howdy]

The best thing I ever did to clear up all the supposed contradictions & hypocrisies in the Old & New Testaments was to sit down and actually read them myself..beginning to end.

At seven chapters a day, it took about 5 months, but it's one of the most rewarding things I ever did. That's a lot of time to commit unless you really want to do it for your own reasons, but before you let somebody tell you what it says, I suggest strongly to all my fellow Orioles fans that you take the time to check it out for yourself.

For me anyway, there's a great, timeless consistency at the root. Not to mention some incredible insights into human nature more accurate than PECOTA projections several thousand years later.

[square634]

Have you read the New Testament? It doesn't dismiss the Torah/Old Testament, but puts it in historical perspective. It's not hypocritical and I'm sorry you seem to have soured on your faith.

I haven't been directed to make burnt offerings or anything since joining my church for instance.

Yeah, well I know no one does burnt offerings anymore, but my point is that if they really believe in the religious text, then they should.

And I should say that I haven't read much of the New Testament (or, to be honest, the entire Old Testament, just random parts during services) or much of the Quran, but I have observed the symptoms of the same things that turned me off from Judaism, and, as they say, actions speak louder than words. From everything I've studied, my personally philosophy is most similar to existentialism.

BTW, don't get me wrong, I think religion does good for a lot of people in the vast majority of cases, but I think the perfect case would be if people had a moral compass in the absence of mutually exclusive religions (what I mean by that is religions that say "You are doomed for eternity unless you believe X and/or pay us Z amount of money, which, by their very nature, cause divisiveness among different groups).

In any event, I think the Westboro folks are more misguided than morally bankrupt, and there are certainly pieces of their religion that they can point to as evidence of their beliefs.

[Mad Mark]

Note before reading: there is sarcasm in this post, and it's written by an atheist. Proceed at your own risk!

Things change. When the bible(s) were written--by people, I might add--there were about 400 people living on earth. No real medical knowledge. Lousy food. Worse hygiene. Average lifespan 35 or so. Every other baby died. So, in that context, yeah, having sex for anything other than making a baby was a really, really bad plan. Boy on boy, girl on girl, solo...no! You're here to make babies so the society doesn't die out! So, in that context, eating shellfish or pork was a really, really bad plan. That stuff would kill ya...literally.
Life was brutish, nasty and short...so people, burdened by trying to wrap their large brains around too little information about how the world worked, took the stuff they knew (see sex and food, above), and made up a bunch of other stuff (or recycled and repurposed previous myths) and came up with a religion, which spun off two other religions, the practitioners of each of which have spent inordinate amounts of time killing the people who don't belong to the one they belong to.
Hitler, Stalin and Mao have nothing on you know who when it comes to body counts.

To quote that great Canadian, Moe Berg "You got to laugh to prevent yourself from crying."

[longflyball]

As a member of Westboro Baptist Church and someone who believes in a literal interpretation of religious texts, I am offended by the political and religious arguments in this thread and feel that it should be closed.

[Lt Melmo]

As a member of Westboro Baptist Church and someone who believes in a literal interpretation of religious texts, I am offended by the political and religious arguments in this thread and feel that it should be closed.
Honestly can't tell if this is a joke or not.

[Pedro Cerrano]

I'd say it's 99% sarcastic.

[sakata_catching]

I'd say it's 99% sarcastic.
Based on some of his other posts, I'm willing to go as low as 50-50.:D

At any rate, he appears to be taking a time-out.

[blueberryale77]

The best thing I ever did to clear up all the supposed contradictions & hypocrisies in the Old & New Testaments was to sit down and actually read them myself..beginning to end.

At seven chapters a day, it took about 5 months, but it's one of the most rewarding things I ever did. That's a lot of time to commit unless you really want to do it for your own reasons, but before you let somebody tell you what it says, I suggest strongly to all my fellow Orioles fans that you take the time to check it out for yourself.

For me anyway, there's a great, timeless consistency at the root. Not to mention some incredible insights into human nature more accurate than PECOTA projections several thousand years later.

Whereas if you're a Red Sox, Yankees, Cubs, or Mariners fan forget it 'cause you're not smart enough!

KIDDING!

Seriously, good post. I've started trying to read the whole thing cover to cover a couple of times, but never quite finished the old testament. I've read parts of the new, but not in order. I usually go along for awhile until I find something that I just can't reconcile (like some of the passages Square 364 referenced) and then sit there trying to figure out how the heck that got in there and what the intended meaning of it could possibly be. I guess it's like an exercise program, you have to be almost regimented about it to keep going.

[square634]

I'm not saying this is true for everyone, but I'd venture a guess that many religious people have not read the religious texts they apparently believe in (I have rarely met someone who recognizes the passages of the Old Testament that I reference or even claims to have read it). Heck, John Wycliffe was declared a heretic largely for daring to translate the Bible into the vernacular (in this case English) so that people could actually read it for themselves instead of relying on what the Church leaders said.

[blueberryale77]

Westboro Baptist Church is to Christianity what Osama Bin Laden is to Islam.

I'm a Christian and am an active, happy member of a Baptist Church. What bothers me about Westboro is people see these misguided fools, point at their TV's, and say, "See? THAT'S why I don't go to church/don't read the Bible/avoid those crazy born-again neighbors of ours!"

The truth is the actions and teachings of the Westboro pastor and his congregation don't fall in line with anything 99.9% of the other Baptist Churches around the world.

As much as I disagree with their actions and I would never personally condone protesting a funeral, it's their right (within the law) just the same as it is anyone protesting the war in Iraq or picketing for the impeachment of our current president and/or vice-president.

OK, legally, protesting at funerals is legal except in those states that have enacted specific ordinances to combat Westboro Baptist. However, there is a huge moral difference between protesting at a seat of government, place of business, or other public location and harassing a grieving family trying to bury a loved one at a church, funeral home, or cemetary. The president and vice president chose a public life which would put them in a position of controversy. Parents of a soldier or a firefighter killed in action, or for that matter an actor in a movie about gay people, did not. If the president were attending a funeral for a family member and people showed up to protest the Iraq war, that too would be inappropriate. Moral standards and respect for the privacy and feelings of other human beings should be significantly higher than the standard of simply not breaking the law.

As for people confusing real Baptists with the Phelps people, I'd like to think the vast majority of Americans are well aware that their extremism and complete disconnect from all the Bible's teachings about love is far from the norm. I think to the extent that some people write off all Christians, they are influenced much more by controversial soundbites from more or less mainstream media personalities like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell (who tend to present themselves as if they speak for the entire Christian community when in fact they don't) than by extremist splinter groups. That being said, one of the greatest problems with our society is the tendency of people of all political and religious stripes to pigeonhole others and not bother to get to know or listen to them based on sometimes arbitrary social distinctions. That intellectual and emotional laziness cuts across all spiritual and political lines, unfortunately.

[ScottieBaseball]

OK, legally, protesting at funerals is legal except in those states that have enacted specific ordinances to combat Westboro Baptist. However, there is a huge moral difference between protesting at a seat of government, place of business, or other public location and harassing a grieving family trying to bury a loved one at a church, funeral home, or cemetary. The president and vice president chose a public life which would put them in a position of controversy. Parents of a soldier or a firefighter killed in action, or for that matter an actor in a movie about gay people, did not. If the president were attending a funeral for a family member and people showed up to protest the Iraq war, that too would be inappropriate. Moral standards and respect for the privacy and feelings of other human beings should be significantly higher than the standard of simply not breaking the law.


I want to make clear I don't condone/agree with what Westboro is doing.

As much as I believe my values and morals are the best way for folks to live, I don't believe it's within my right as Joe Citizen to inflict them upon you or anyone else. That is unless I were an elected official. That being said, no matter how ridiculous I might think a protest is and regardless of why I find it absurd, I'll shake my head and sigh, "It's their right." Someday I might feel compelled to express my beliefs via protest and I hope I'll be afforded similar protection under the law.

Regarding the choice of a public profession...I agree. However, the laws and rights of this country apply to everyone regardless of their occupation.


As for people confusing real Baptists with the Phelps people, I'd like to think the vast majority of Americans are well aware that their extremism and complete disconnect from all the Bible's teachings about love is far from the norm. I think to the extent that some people write off all Christians, they are influenced much more by controversial soundbites from more or less mainstream media personalities like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell (who tend to present themselves as if they speak for the entire Christian community when in fact they don't) than by extremist splinter groups. That being said, one of the greatest problems with our society is the tendency of people of all political and religious stripes to pigeonhole others and not bother to get to know or listen to them based on sometimes arbitrary social distinctions. That intellectual and emotional laziness cuts across all spiritual and political lines, unfortunately.

I think you give the majority of Americans too much credit! :D I've been confronted on several occassions about Westboro because I'm a Christian. It's been on various levels, from the sympathetic to the, "Aha! I TOLD you Christians were crazy!" I think most of us are guilty to some degree of taking what we hear on the news as the whole story, so I don't necessarily fault anyone for the judgement. However, I feel compelled to point out that it ain't all of us!

The world would be a much better place if people acted the way you described by getting to know others while declining to accept pigeonholes and social preconceptions.

[Mad Mark]

So, I'm reading this thread, and my ad at the bottom is for a site where I can safely meet Christian singles...too funny!