Has it really been just ten years?

[Bibliomaniac]

Moderators: Feel free to move this to the Orioles History Forum if you think it belongs there.

I constantly see the adage that "it's been ten years since the O's were a comptetive team". I wouild like to differ.

I say it's been much longer than ten years. Yes, I know that we went to the postseason in 1996 and 1997, but we did so trying to be the MFY's and buying up a bunch of free agent talent. Those two years are aberrations. The truth is, except for those two years, we've stunk since the mid-80's.

Those who constantly repeat the "ten years" line are, I feel, implying that the team's problems belong solely to Peter Angelos. Now, I am not a big Angelos booster, but it's not all his fault. What Peter tried to do was put a Band-Aid on a sucking chest wound. But (to carry a disgusting analogy further) he didn't create the sucking chest wound, that was done by Edward Bennett Williams and especially Eli Jacobs.

So, people, just relax and sit back. It's taken us a long while to fall this far, and, while it won't take as long to get back up, it might take a little while. We're on the right path, I beleieve, so just have a little patience and enjoy the next few yeras...

[RShack]

Exactly right. Things started going to hell in '79 when EBW bought the team and starting ignoring the farm system. It took a few years for the damage to show, simply because guys like Cal were in the pipeline already and the guys on the team were good. But the destruction of the Oriole Way started big-time in '79. That's almost 30 years ago.

The mid-90's were just a temporary distraction due to PA spending out the wazoo to be like Steinbrenner. It was impossible to sustain that, and it didn't fix anything.

[calunitas1]

This is actually something I realized a long time ago. The O's have been terrible since I was a little kid (I am 28 now). And to be honest 96 and 97 never felt right because most of the guys on the team weren't (to paraphrase a MFY sentiment) "Real Orioles"

[orayole]

Well I just started watching baseball in '96 so I got spoiled. :(

[TonySoprano]

But the destruction of the Oriole Way started big-time in '79. That's almost 30 years ago. Was the 1983 world series also an abberation? Angelos has been on the job since late 1993, well more than enough time for a competent owner to rebuild a farm system and fix what ails the team.

[bgtimber75]

Is this the old "Angelos isn't that bad if you consider how bad the person was before him" argument? Yes the team has been horrible for 10 years. As TonySoprano said he's had the team since 1993. 14 full years and 2 playoff years is a horrible record no matter how you want to lay it out there.

[Aurelius]

Well I just started watching baseball in '96 so I got spoiled. :(

1969 for me. Spoiled? You have no idea. That team was the best Oriole team ever and now I go thru life realizing it will probably never be topped. And was too young to appreciate what I was seeing.

[RShack]

Was the 1983 world series also an abberation?
It was no aberration, it was the last gasp of a dying system. It takes time for a drying-up farm system to be visible at the ML level. Cal was already in the system when EBW killed the Oriole Way. Cal was the very last guy. The problem only showed up at the ML level when there was nobody coming through the pipeline after Cal. You stop filling-up your car with gas, it doesn't stop running right away. It only stops after you use up the gas that was already in the tank. Same thing.

[mikezpen]

It's true that EBW was the beginning of the end for the Oriole organization. I think Jacobs was worse than Angelos, but he wasn't around long enough for his cheap ways to really damage the team.The late 80's/early 90's featured some great #1 picks like Mussina, McDonald and Olson, but the system didn't really produce them. I think their college programs developed them more than the Orioles did.

[33rdst]

A guy the Orioles don't get credit for developing, who went on to have a very solid and long career is Steve Finley. He's a guy the Orioles would love to have kept instead of Anderson but the Astros refused to take Brady.

That trade after the '89 season really sent this organization into a tail spin. The 89 team was comprised primarily of young guys from our farm system or guys we acquired in trades. We almost caught the Blue Jays in what would have been a miracle year. Roland Heyman, a nice man, but I'll never forgive him, traded away our future grasping for the ring. That deal also began the demise of Frank Robinson.

[hoosiers]

Was the 1983 world series also an abberation? Angelos has been on the job since late 1993, well more than enough time for a competent owner to rebuild a farm system and fix what ails the team.

I'm not really sure how one disputes this post.

PA is the one constant and he's had enough time to get this together. It's PA's fault for running off Gillick and Wren, despite minor disputes, that would have left us with far superior teams over the past 10 years. PA's choices regarding Thrift, B&F and B&D were clearly poor ones in retrospect.

IMO, the thing that is doubly disappointing is that even with mediocre/bad GMS, if we had a quality scouting director in place before Jordan during most of this time, we'd have been considerably more competitive.

[geschinger]

I'm not really sure how one disputes this post.

PA is the one constant and he's had enough time to get this together. It's PA's fault for running off Gillick and Wren, despite minor disputes, that would have left us with far superior teams over the past 10 years. PA's choices regarding Thrift, B&F and B&D were clearly poor ones in retrospect.

IMO, the thing that is doubly disappointing is that even with mediocre/bad GMS, if we had a quality scouting director in place before Jordan during most of this time, we'd have been considerably more competitive.

The original post and the post you reply to both have some merit. Angelos has had plenty of time to "fix" things. But at the same time he didn't destroy a thriving franchise either. He took over a severely broken franchise and it continued to be a severely broken franchise and only in the last couple of years have issues like a poor minor league system been addressed.

[NattyBo]

A guy the Orioles don't get credit for developing, who went on to have a very solid and long career is Steve Finley. He's a guy the Orioles would love to have kept instead of Anderson but the Astros refused to take Brady.

That trade after the '89 season really sent this organization into a tail spin. The 89 team was comprised primarily of young guys from our farm system or guys we acquired in trades. We almost caught the Blue Jays in what would have been a miracle year. Roland Heyman, a nice man, but I'll never forgive him, traded away our future grasping for the ring. That deal also began the demise of Frank Robinson.


100% agree with this statement. Had we held on to Finley, Harnisch, and Schilling the O's would have been competitive for several years after. I became a die-hard fan during that season. It's been years of disappointment ever since.

[RShack]

It's true that EBW was the beginning of the end for the Oriole organization. I think Jacobs was worse than Angelos, but he wasn't around long enough for his cheap ways to really damage the team.
Jacobs was broke. We don't know how he would have been had he not been broke. But, yes, he was broke and he sure didn't help revive the Oriole Way that EBW killed. Neither did PA. We've had 3 bad owners in a row. PA is the only one who spent to try to fix things. Didn't do it the right way, hasn't been a good owner, but he's the only one who spent money to try. His 2 post-season appearances in 14 years equals how many happened in the previous 14. Just because PA has been bad, that doesn't mean the previous guys didn't wreck it before he got here. They did. PA didn't ruin the system, it was already ruined. He just didn't fix it.

The one big thing we do owe Jacobs for is the cool, special nature of OPACY. He's the guy who pushed hard for the features and charm of old-timey in-the-city ball yards.


The late 80's/early 90's featured some great #1 picks like Mussina, McDonald and Olson, but the system didn't really produce them. I think their college programs developed them more than the Orioles did.
I agree. We got a couple hits from the draft but, AFAIK, there is nothing about those guys that the farm system deserves credit for.

[TonySoprano]

PA is the only one who spent to try to fix things. Didn't do it the right way, hasn't been a good owner, but he's the only one who spent money to try. Do you mean how after fourteen years on the job, how money is only now being invested in the D.R.? How after fourteen years, only now is he expanding his "Asian outreach?"
Just because PA has been bad, that doesn't mean the previous guys didn't wreck it before he got here. They did. PA didn't ruin the system, it was already ruined. He just didn't fix it.He "just didn't fix it" (aw shucks) despite the fact he has been owner nearly twice as long (fourteen years to eight) as EBW. Incredibly, in your tale, EBW remains the primary villain.

[RShack]

Incredibly, in your tale, EBW remains the primary villain.
He's just the first villian... and the one who has zero positives to go along with the negatives. He's the guy who killed the Oriole Way. I know you like him, dunno why, but I know you do. (Is it because he was a Mafia lawyer? ;-) But no matter how you cut it, he's the guy who killed the Oriole Way. It was there before him, and it got killed because of him. By the time the other guys came along, it was just history.

The other two have *something* on the positive side of the ledger. Not much, not nearly enough, but something. The two main things EBW did were (a) destroy the best franchise in baseball, and then (b) sell it for 6 times what he paid for it. On a brighter note, at least he's dead.

[TonySoprano]

Zero positives despite a 1983 world series trophy? That's some objective analysis. The Orioles had a winning record from 1980-1985. Six seasons of winning in eight full years as owner (he died in August, 1988), which is also twice the amount under PA in fourteen years. Williams and then mayor "Willie Don" Schaeffer brokered the deal for what became Oriole Park at Camden Yards, a virtual golden goose, until PA killed attendance.

Zero positives?

Horse hockey.

[Lucky Jim]

Do you mean how after fourteen years on the job, how money is only now being invested in the D.R.? How after fourteen years, only now is he expanding his "Asian outreach?" He "just didn't fix it" (aw shucks) despite the fact he has been owner nearly twice as long (fourteen years to eight) as EBW. Incredibly, in your tale, EBW remains the primary villain.

Can't we also blame Eli Jacobs?

[TonySoprano]

Can't we also blame Eli Jacobs?If you listen to Shack, Jacobs had "some positives" (though I can't name them). Angelos has owned the team longer than the last two owners, combined.

[RShack]

Zero positives despite a 1983 world series trophy? That's some objective analysis.
You keep bringing up '83. That team was left over from the Oriole Way that EBW killed. It wasn't EBW's fault that it took some time for his destruction of the system to have ill-effects at the ML level. If you have a good ML team, and if you dynamite the farm system, that doesn't make the ML team instantly suck. The ML team will stay good until you need some new guys and don't have them. Just like if you decide to quit putting gas in your car, your car doesn't stop right then. It has to use up the old tank-full of gas first. It's the same thing. What about this do you disagree with?



Williams and then mayor "Willie Don" Schaeffer brokered the deal for what became Oriole Park at Camden Yards
If EBW is responsible for OPACY being located where it is, then I agree that's a positive. He's not responsible for it being a very cool place, Jacobs did that. But if EBW got the basic deal done, then I completely retract my comment that he has nothing on the positive side of the ledger. If that's correct, then he's just like PA and Jacobs: a very short list of positives that in no way outweighs the fact that they were very bad owners. We have not had a decent owner since the local beer guys got out of the baseball business.

[Birds of B'more]

PA is the only one who spent to try to fix things. Didn't do it the right way, hasn't been a good owner, but he's the only one who spent money to try.

As I recall, EBW was willing to spend money for talent, it may not seem that way relative to today's salaries, but I don't remember him being cheap. Fred Lynn and Lee Lacy come to mind, plus spending enough to keep Cal and Eddie. I always thought EBW's problem was he either spent money or traded young talent for players that were washed up trying to chase one more WS.

[mojmann]

Zero positives despite a 1983 world series trophy? That's some objective analysis. The Orioles had a winning record from 1980-1985. Six seasons of winning in eight full years as owner (he died in August, 1988), which is also twice the amount under PA in fourteen years. Williams and then mayor "Willie Don" Schaeffer brokered the deal for what became Oriole Park at Camden Yards, a virtual golden goose, until PA killed attendance.

Zero positives?

Horse hockey.

The 1983 team was really a holdover from the Hoffberger era. Most of the players on that team were from the great farm system of the 1970s Orioles -- Eddie, Rich Dauer, Cal, Storm Davis, Flanagan, an old Palmer (actually 60s for him) -- or from the great deals of the mid- to late-70s (Lowenstein, Dempsey, McGregor)

EBW deserves zero credit for that 83 team. As a matter of fact, he deserves to be villified for not putting the proper person in charge of that 83 team after Earl's retirement. Cal Sr. was the right person and would have kept the team on a good course.

EBW was the main reason for the decline of the Oriole Way. That is just a fact. I don't even think it's a matter of opinion. The record is clear.

[TonySoprano]

If you have a good ML team, and if you dynamite the farm system, that doesn't make the ML team instantly suck. I'd like some specific examples of how EBW did this because I took the time and went through the Orioles transactions from 1980-1987 and didn't find anything that would lead one to that conclusion.

[RShack]

If you listen to Shack, Jacobs had "some positives" (though I can't name them).
I already told you. He's the guy who wanted OPACY to be weird and quirky like old-timey ballparks. He grew up at Ebbetts field, that's why RF is the way it is. At the time, MLB has goofy rules about standard dimensions and symmetry. To do what Jacobs wanted, the O's had to get special exemptions from MLB. As we all know, OPACY is a landmark in baseball stadium design, and Jacobs is the guy who steered it that way.

AFAIK, that's the only positive for him. But it's a big one, not just for the O's, but also in terms of things that are important for all of baseball, like re-inventing the idea of baseball stadiums and putting them right smack dab in the city. He was broke and a bad owner, but he did one thing very-right.

[RShack]

I'd like some specific examples of how EBW did this because I took the time and went through the Orioles transactions from 1980-1987 and didn't find anything that would lead one to that conclusion.
It's not about player transactions. A good system is not just about signing kids. Signing kids matter, but it's not enough. The main reason the O's were the best franchise in baseball for 30+ years is because of the Oriole Way: that's the combination of signing good kids, plus the standardized player-development system that AM's daddy told his baseball guys to invent, plus the priority on guys having the right attitude that AM's daddy insisted on. EBW killed the Oriole Way. It's not about bad trades. He bought *THE* best organization in baseball. Under his leadership, it got completely nuked. It did not develop even one single everyday player under his tenure. It's hard to take the best organization in baseball, and make it be *that* bad *that* fast. It's hard, but it's not impossible, and EBW managed to pull it off. Then, after raping the Baltimore Orioles franchise, he sold it for 6 times what he paid. I don't know if the Baseball Gods have any say-so about who goes to hell but, if they do, then EBW is there right now.

[TonySoprano]

Then, after raping the Baltimore Orioles franchise, he sold it for 6 times what he paid.[/quoteThis whole "argument" is a red herring. Do you not believe in the free market system? Steinbrenner bought the Yankees for $10 million and it's now worth over $1 billion. In what possible way does the amount EBW's estate earned on the sale (you see, because EBW was dead when the franchise was sold) have to do with anything? Was Jacobs in anyway coerced to pay what he did for the franchise?


It did not develop even one single everyday player under his tenure. The Orioles drafted Mike Young in 1980 and he was an "everyday" player from 1982-1987. Bill Ripken and Jim Traber were drafted in 1982. Jeff Tackett was drafted in 1984. Craig Worthington was picked in 1985. Steve Finley was drafted in 1987 only to be traded away by Eli Jacobs in 1991. Gregg Olson, Peter Harnisch, Bob Milacki, Ken Dixon, Jeff Ballard, Arthur Rhodes, while not "everyday players" were among some of the pitchers drafted during EBW's tenure.

"The Oriole Way" - draft picks eight years before EBW:
1979 - Bob Melvin, Allan Ramirez, Storm Davis, Bill Swaggerty

1978 - Cal Ripken, Larry Sheets , Mike Bod****er

1977 - Drungo Hazewood, Mark Smith

1976 - Dallas Williams, Jim Smith

1975 - Dave Ford, Steve Lake, Jeff Rineer, Darryl Cias

1974 - Rich Dauer, Tom CHism, Mike Darr, Randy Miller

1973 - Mike Parrot, Eddie Murray, Bob Pate, Mike Flanagan

1972 - Bobby Brown, Mike Willis, Willie Royster


I don't know if the Baseball Gods have any say-so about who goes to hell but, if they do, then EBW is there right now.Your bias is showing. If EBW is destined for hell, in your book, it's a real good thing Angelos knows a thing or two about asbestos.

Class dismissed.

[bgtimber75]

Mike Bod****er?

How odd.

[RShack]

This whole "argument" is a red herring. Do you not believe in the free market system?
No, I am not saying that the fact that EBW destroyed THE best franchise in baseball means that we should become Socialists. But neither do I think that a guy's ability to destroy a great organization and still make a profit makes him a good guy. Nor am I saying Jacobs and PA were not bad owners. They were. Why do you keep bringing them up to defend EBW? Since EBW was dead by the time the other guys got the team, I don't understand what they have to do with how EBW ruined the franchise.

If you just look at what he did, you're fighting a losing battle. Look at this way: If you're counting on the organization to develop players and maintain a winning culture, it's not an instant thing. Unless you're pulling a Steinbrenner and buying stars who you didn't grow, it takes a while. Can we agree about that? So, how long should we say it takes for the dried-up pipeline to cause problems? The O's signed Cal in '78, and his big ROY year was '82. So, that's a diff of 4 years. I guess we could argue for a little more or a little less, but using Cal seems like a very Oriole thing to do, so let's just say it takes 4 years, OK?

Since EBW was responsible for the 80-88 seasons, that means the effects of the system will be visible on the ML club from 84-92 (unless we had a Steinbrenner in there, which we didn't.) I just looked up the O's winning percentage for those years. They work out to an average winning percentage of .468. For 162 games, that's 76 wins. If we back up and look at the 8 years previous to that, it was .580, which translates to 94 wins. That means that during the years of "the EBW effect", the O's went from *averaging* 94 wins per year, all the way down to 76 wins per year. Now, I know you like to think that Jacobs and PA are way worse than EBW, but they're not. If you take all the O's seasons after the EBW effect, then the winning percentage is .476, which is 77 wins over a 162 game season.

So, to review:
EBW was in charge for about 8 years.
In the 8 years prior to EBW's destruction of the Orioles organization trickling up to the ML club, the O's had an average winning pct of .580, or 94 wins per year.
During the years that EBW's effects show up, the franchise sunk to an average winning pct. of .468, or 76 wins.
In all the years after that time period combined, the franchise had an average winning pct. of .476, or 77 wins.

Face it, Tony, EBW is the guy who screwed the pooch and destroyed the franchise. The 2 guys since have just continued the level of crapitude that EBW established.



Your bias is showing. If EBW is destined for hell, in your book, it's a real good thing Angelos knows a thing or two about asbestos.
Jacobs and PA have zilch to do with EBW. He's they guy who put the O's in the toilet.
What is your allegiance to EBW? I don't get it. Was he your cousin or something?



Class dismissed.
Just one more thought: You keep wanting to give EBW credit for working out a deal with Schaeffer to put the new stadium in the City. Um, how hard do you think it was to convince Willie Don Schaeffer to put it in the City? Don't you think that was approximately as hard as convincing the Pope that it's good to be Catholic?

[mojmann]

I already told you. He's the guy who wanted OPACY to be weird and quirky like old-timey ballparks. He grew up at Ebbetts field, that's why RF is the way it is. At the time, MLB has goofy rules about standard dimensions and symmetry. To do what Jacobs wanted, the O's had to get special exemptions from MLB. As we all know, OPACY is a landmark in baseball stadium design, and Jacobs is the guy who steered it that way.



This is a very good point, Shack. People forget that William Donald Schaefer was fighting for OPACY to be another Skydome.

It was Jacobs and Luchino who held to the vision of an old-style park.

You know your Oriole history, sir.

[Boy Howdy]

I'd like some specific examples of how EBW did this because I took the time and went through the Orioles transactions from 1980-1987 and didn't find anything that would lead one to that conclusion.

I can't point the finger directly at EBW, but on his watch, the Orioles farm system had an embarrassingly low number of black players in the mid-to-late '80's.

I was in high school at the time, but I remember a report on the radio quoting some insanely low figure like 6 or 8 players from Rookie league to AAA. Ironically, this was when the major league roster featured Murray-Young-Shelby-Rayford-Snell-Lacy, etc...

(It's something I've been meaning to research for quite some time, but who knows when I'll get around to it).

Coupled with the fact that the Orioles didn't feature a single Dominican-born player (with the exception of 1 at bat by Bronx resident Ozzie Virgil in 1962) until Rule 5 draftee Jose Bautista came aboard in 1988, you have just two symptoms of a minor league network in decay (of dying from failing to evolve) whatever you want to call it.

[NewMarketSean]

Just because the Orioles may have been headed in the wrong direction in 1979 or whenever doesn't take any blame away from Peter ANgelos. He had the resources once OPACY was built to field a competitive team and improve the MiL. Instead he decided to use the team to boost his ego and prove that everyone else around him was wrong. Except that he was the one who was wrong save for turning down some trades that wouldn't have worked out.

It's like watching Citizen Kane.

Angelos may be a decent person, but you can't tell me anything to make me take away any blame from him for what he has done to this team. Just because it was bad before he got here proves nothing. He had the time to change things and didn't. That's the point.

[RShack]

Just because the Orioles may have been headed in the wrong direction in 1979 or whenever doesn't take any blame away from Peter ANgelos.
Who are you talking to? Nobody said it did. Nobody.

[TonySoprano]

Since EBW was dead by the time the other guys got the team, I don't understand what they have to do with how EBW ruined the franchise. You seem stuck on the premise that once something is "ruined" that it is irrevocably broken. EBW had Hank Peters as his GM for seven years of his tenure, the same guy that was GM for four years before EBW arrived. Criticizing EBW is also an indictment of Peters, as the two are constants throughout the 1980-1987 timeframe. Do you want to go there to make your case?

By contrast, Angelos has gone through Hemond, Gillick, Wren, Thrift, B&F, Flanagan part deux, and now MacPhail. Thrift was a particularly dubious selection, not that those that followed were particularly inspired choices either, to be polite. (I reserve judgement on MacPhail at this juncture.)


So, how long should we say it takes for the dried-up pipeline to cause problems? The O's signed Cal in '78, and his big ROY year was '82. So, that's a diff of 4 years. I guess we could argue for a little more or a little less, but using Cal seems like a very Oriole thing to do, so let's just say it takes 4 years, OK? Fine, use four years, and go back to my list of draft picks and see who was in the "pipeline" four years before EBW: Ripken, Bod****er, and Storm Davis. You have to go back to 1973 to find other players that came up through the Orioles "pipeline" and later spent significant time on the roster. EBW wasn't yet the owner when the Orioles, decided to start going the free agent route, with Reggie Jackson being the first big example.

The 2 guys since have just continued the level of crapitude that EBW established. Talk about your understatements. If I apply the four-year rule to PA, from 1998-2007, the winning percentage is .446 or 72 wins and every single season a losing one.


What is your allegiance to EBW? I don't get it. Was he your cousin or something? I grow tired of these constant "jokes." Usually that's the last resort when one is otherwise running out of arguments in a debate. Instead of addressing some tougher counter-arguments, you make the subject about me personally. The dripping irony is you're the one so clouded in your objectivity that you, in your own words, wish EBW was in hell.


Just one more thought: You keep wanting to give EBW credit for working out a deal with Schaeffer to put the new stadium in the City. Um, how hard do you think it was to convince Willie Don Schaeffer to put it in the City? Don't you think that was approximately as hard as convincing the Pope that it's good to be Catholic?Um, do you think it's easy to convince a politician to publicly finance a new stadium? Ask the Marlins how easy it has been for them. The Yankees are paying the bulk ($1 billion) of the costs associated with their new stadium.

[RShack]

You seem stuck on the premise that once something is "ruined" that it is irrevocably broken.

[stuff deleted]

I grow tired of these constant "jokes." Usually that's the last resort when one is otherwise running out of arguments in a debate. Instead of addressing some tougher counter-arguments, you make the subject about me personally. The dripping irony is you're the one so clouded in your objectivity that you, in your own words, wish EBW was in hell.
Tony, look... you hate PA, I understand that. I'm not telling you to not-hate PA... I'm not defending the guy. And, no, I don't think it's "irrevocably broken". To the contrary, I get in all kinds of discussions with folks about what's broken and how to fix it. So, I don't know where you're getting that. I don't think it's permanently broken but I do hate EBW... because I think he's the guy who broke it to begin with. I'm not saying you're supposed to, but I do. Why can't you accept that he's just as hate-worthy as PA is? ;-)

I don't give "constant jokes as a last resort when running out of arguments". That's just not true. I gave you a good argument, one that shows that EBW and PA are comparable in their crapitude, and that the main difference is that EBW was bad way before PA was bad. What are you defending the guy for? You think the Orioles franchise *didn't* become crappy on EBW's watch? You think the Oriole Way was doing just fine under EBW's reign? Is that what you think?

"Constant jokes" might be one thing people do when they don't have a good argument. Getting mad is another one.
Come on, Tony, everybody agrees that PA sucks, but what are you sticking up for EBW for?

[66-70-83-??]

FWIW-

Eli Jacobs didn't have much to do with building OPACY.

The construction started just a few months after he bought the team.

All the long, hard groundwork (lobbying, funding, designing, etc) was already done.

He was just at the right place at the right time. He was owner for the construction and opening of the ballpark but I don't recall him having much influence.

Janet Marie Smith and Larry Lucchino are the two who are given credit for insisting on the unique look (keeping the warehouse for ex).

EBW and Schaefer are responsible for making OPACY a reality. They were the two that fought for the new stadium.

The only thing Jacobs did was fight with Schaefer over the name. Eli wanted Oriole Park, Schaefer wanted Camden Yards. So, they compromised- OPACY.

[hoosiers]

I am not sure I understand how someone can contest most of what Tony is writing. Even if the organization was in a desperate state of disrepair when PA took over the franchise (not saying it was), PA has had more than enough time to get us to a better situation than we are in today - I don't understand how this can be reasonably contested.

PA's choices for GMs the past eight years have been thoroughly uninspiring and that is more evident every day with the progress AM makes in dealing our veterans, expanding our scouting presence, etc.

[TonySoprano]

IMO, still arguing about what EBW did is as relevant as discussing about how Hoover brought us into the Great Depression, when we're talking about the current economy in 2008. (No, I'm not the one saying that EBW was as bad as Hoover; I'm just trying to bring perspective into the discussion.)

EBW allegedly "dynamited" the Oriole Way, while at the same time, employing the same GM (Peters), and field manager (Weaver) as his predecessor, which one would argue is a rather curious feat. We're also to believe that he was such a screw-up that after his fourth season on the job, his team still managed to win the world series, despite him and all of his attempts to destroy the franchise.

I can not recall stories of EBW going last minute into the draft room and directing his GM who not to draft, as PA did, which got us the Wade Townsend fiasco.

Angelos rode Davey Johnson out of town, who was also trained in the Oriole Way. Davey resigned, Peter accepted is the official story, but what drove Johnson to do so in the first place? Ever since Angelos overruled Gillick in 1996, he has wrongly assumed that his baseball acumen was on a par with his hired baseball professionals.

Despite others attempts to interpret what I think, I don't hate Peter Angelos, the man. That's a wasted emotion on something so relatively insignificant in the grand scheme of life as baseball.

Whatever misdeeds may have occured in EBW's time, it doesn't come close to the track record of one Peter G. Angelos. IMHO, Angelos' overall record, as owner of the Orioles has been a failure, brought about by his own arrogance. To drag EBW into the discussion only serves as a way of mitigating the failures of the past fourteen years, which, to do so, in my book is chicanery.

[NewMarketSean]

IMO, still arguing about what EBW did is as relevant as discussing about how Hoover brought us into the Great Depression, when we're talking about the current economy in 2008. (No, I'm not the one saying that EBW was as bad as Hoover; I'm just trying to bring perspective into the discussion.)

EBW allegedly "dynamited" the Oriole Way, while at the same time, employing the same GM (Peters), and field manager (Weaver) as his predecessor, which one would argue is a rather curious feat. We're also to believe that he was such a screw-up that after his fourth season on the job, his team still managed to win the world series, despite him and all of his attempts to destroy the franchise.

I can not recall stories of EBW going last minute into the draft room and directing his GM who not to draft, as PA did, which got us the Wade Townsend fiasco.

Angelos rode Davey Johnson out of town, who was also trained in the Oriole Way. Davey resigned, Peter accepted is the official story, but what drove Johnson to do so in the first place? Ever since Angelos overruled Gillick in 1996, he has wrongly assumed that his baseball acumen was on a par with his hired baseball professionals.

Despite others attempts to interpret what I think, I don't hate Peter Angelos, the man. That's a wasted emotion on something so relatively insignificant in the grand scheme of life as baseball.

Whatever misdeeds may have occured in EBW's time, it doesn't come close to the track record of one Peter G. Angelos. IMHO, Angelos' overall record, as owner of the Orioles has been a failure, brought about by his own arrogance. To drag EBW into the discussion only serves as a way of mitigating the failures of the past fourteen years, which, to do so, in my book is chicanery.

Ding, ding, ding!!!

Thanks for saying what I wanted to say, but couldn't find the right words.

[RShack]

Even if the organization was in a desperate state of disrepair when PA took over the franchise (not saying it was), PA has had more than enough time to get us to a better situation than we are in today - I don't understand how this can be reasonably contested.
Nobody is contesting that. Nobody.

*Everybody* agrees that PA has been a very crappy owner who should have repaired the franchise. He had both the time and the money to do so, but he didn't. Everybody agrees with that. Nobody says otherwise.

That has nothing to do with this. The only thing people seem to be disagreeing about is that some folks (like me) think that EBW is the guy who destroyed the franchise to begin with. Other people seem to think that EBW wasn't a terrible owner, that he wasn't the guy who bought *THE best* franchise in baseball and ruined it. I don't know why they would think that, but that's what the disagreement is about.