Cubs trade targets update

[Frobby]

Through games of 3/12:

Murton .367/.424/.433 (33 PAs)
Patterson .273/.333/.455 (24 PAs)
Cedeno .190/.227/.238 (23 PAs)

Gallager 6 IP, 5 H, 4 R, 4 ER, 2 BB, 5 K's
Marshall 5.1 IP, 4 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 3 BB, 4 K's

If you are interested in others they can be found here: http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?c_id=chc&baseballScope=CH2&subScope=pos&teamPosCode=all&statType=Overview&timeSubFrame=23&sitSplit=&venueID=&Submit=Submit&timeFrame=1

[Moose Milligan]

Pie 1.000/twisted/testicle

Murton intrigues me for some reason.

[ChaosLex]

Through games of 3/12:

Murton .367/.424/.433 (33 PAs)
Patterson .273/.333/.455 (24 PAs)
Cedeno .190/.227/.238 (23 PAs)

Gallager 6 IP, 5 H, 4 R, 4 ER, 2 BB, 5 K's
Marshall 5.1 IP, 4 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 3 BB, 4 K's

If you are interested in others they can be found here: http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?c_id=chc&baseballScope=CH2&subScope=pos&teamPosCode=all&statType=Overview&timeSubFrame=23&sitSplit=&venueID=&Submit=Submit&timeFrame=1

IMO, if Pie isn't included, any deal with the Cubs will include four of this guys.

[NewMarketSean]

I used to not care who we got out of Cedeno and EPatt but I am definitely an EPatt guy now. Cedeno scares the poo out of me.

[Maverick2143]

Wow I guess baseballs in Arizona don't really need to be afraid of Cedeno. .465 OPS :eek:

I though OPS was like the SAT, you get a least 500 Points just for writing your name correctly.



Just kidding Cubbie's :)

[ChaosLex]

You guys don't know what you're talking about. Cedeno is clearly an everyday shortstop and a future All-Star. ;):D:rolleyes:

[bej6789]

Every single one of those players, with the exception of a fully realized potential Marshall is a backup at this level.

[CubbieMD]

Pie 1.000/twisted/testicle

Murton intrigues me for some reason.

He should, Moose.

Now, whether or not you guys like the potential in these players or not, but, you guys are reportedly getting some of the best minor leaguers in our system.

Many Cubs fans, myself NOT included, really don't want a potential Roberts deal to transpire, as they don't want to lose any, moreover, all of these guys.

Gallagher is the most MLB-ready pitcher in the organization right now. Hands down.

Whether you'd like to realize this or not, Cubs pitching has been pretty solid in/out of the minors over the years. Hill, Marshall, Wuertz, Zambrano, Marmol, Veal, Ceda, Mateo, Prior, D. Willis, Mitre, and Nolasco. Obviously, some of these guys aren't with the organization anymore, but there's been a decent amount of talent that's proven to be able to pitch in the bigs.

So, while our minor league system is ranked in the middle of the pack, the pitching has been pretty decent over the past 5-6 years.

Also, please remember, that the Cubs have been all about winning NOW since 2003, for obvious reasons. We had a manager for 4 years who really did not want to play young talent, even amid horrible seasons. So, there's been little chance for players like Murton and Cedeno to really prove themselves as every day players. Patterson has a future for sure. He's a better player than his brother.

These guys, I feel, if given the chance, can really shine with some consistent playing time. I think you might be pleasantly surprised.

This whole Roberts thing is getting really old. I know how much some of you love the guy, and that's so understandable. But, he is 30 years old, and your teams' management is basically blowing this thing up. It's not fair to him to keep him around for 2 more years of rebuilding and, um, growing pains.

I'm not saying the Cubs are going to do anything spectacular, but on paper, and based on the recent success of last year, they're in a much better position for the post-season, and moreover, winning, than your O's at this point.

Let Roberts at least taste this and have the opportunity. He's gone in 2 years anyway. Let him try and thrive with a ballclub that at least has a chance.

Mark Grace left the Cubs for AZ. He was a Roberts-like icon in town. Still is. Nobody begrudged him for wanting to play for a potential winning team that year. He ended up winning a WS and made a nice career for himself in Phoenix.

I think you get my point.

[ChaosLex]

Let Roberts at least taste this and have the opportunity. He's gone in 2 years anyway. Let him try and thrive with a ballclub that at least has a chance.

As much as it hurts me to say this, I agree with you. Roberts does deserve better.

Let's hope there's resolution (one way or another) within the next week.

[clapdiddy]

As much as it hurts me to say this, I agree with you. Roberts does deserve better.

Let's hope there's resolution (one way or another) within the next week.
Something tells me you'll be posting this again NEXT week! ;)

[bej6789]

I have no doubt about it, the Cubs farm system is very, very solid. It just so happens that I think the Orioles are getting no solid position players, to go along with 2 solid pitchers in return.

I do have to disagree with you on your point when it comes to letting Roberts taste victory. It was him who signed the deal with the Orioles, it was the Orioles who held onto him, it was the Orioles who traded Hairston when they could've traded Robers. And most importantly, it's the Orioles who 100% embraced him when he admitted to using performance enhancing drugs with the lousy excuse of "nobody asked me." In this day and age, I have no sympathy for people who "want to win" yet they sign a deal with a bad team. He saw who the owner was, he was what the farm system looked like, he could easily have avoided playing with the Orioles for an extra season, but he chose not to. He should show up to work every day, and be thankful the Orioles now have a head on their shoulders with Mcphail finally. And if he doesn't get dealt.... cry me a river brob. You have 2 seasons left. This time, don't sign an extension if you think you may regret it.

[Lucky Jim]

I have no doubt about it, the Cubs farm system is very, very solid. It just so happens that I think the Orioles are getting no solid position players, to go along with 2 solid pitchers in return.

I do have to disagree with you on your point when it comes to letting Roberts taste victory. It was him who signed the deal with the Orioles, it was the Orioles who held onto him, it was the Orioles who traded Hairston when they could've traded Robers. And most importantly, it's the Orioles who 100% embraced him when he admitted to using performance enhancing drugs with the lousy excuse of "nobody asked me." In this day and age, I have no sympathy for people who "want to win" yet they sign a deal with a bad team. He saw who the owner was, he was what the farm system looked like, he could easily have avoided playing with the Orioles for an extra season, but he chose not to. He should show up to work every day, and be thankful the Orioles now have a head on their shoulders with Mcphail finally. And if he doesn't get dealt.... cry me a river brob. You have 2 seasons left. This time, don't sign an extension if you think you may regret it.

Are you even a fan of this team? You're dismissive of Roberts because he liked Baltimore, his teammates, and hoped to win here rather than elsewhere?

Makes no sense to me.

[wildcard]

He should, Moose.

Now, whether or not you guys like the potential in these players or not, but, you guys are reportedly getting some of the best minor leaguers in our system.

Many Cubs fans, myself NOT included, really don't want a potential Roberts deal to transpire, as they don't want to lose any, moreover, all of these guys.

Gallagher is the most MLB-ready pitcher in the organization right now. Hands down.

Whether you'd like to realize this or not, Cubs pitching has been pretty solid in/out of the minors over the years. Hill, Marshall, Wuertz, Zambrano, Marmol, Veal, Ceda, Mateo, Prior, D. Willis, Mitre, and Nolasco. Obviously, some of these guys aren't with the organization anymore, but there's been a decent amount of talent that's proven to be able to pitch in the bigs.

So, while our minor league system is ranked in the middle of the pack, the pitching has been pretty decent over the past 5-6 years.

Also, please remember, that the Cubs have been all about winning NOW since 2003, for obvious reasons. We had a manager for 4 years who really did not want to play young talent, even amid horrible seasons. So, there's been little chance for players like Murton and Cedeno to really prove themselves as every day players. Patterson has a future for sure. He's a better player than his brother.

These guys, I feel, if given the chance, can really shine with some consistent playing time. I think you might be pleasantly surprised.

This whole Roberts thing is getting really old. I know how much some of you love the guy, and that's so understandable. But, he is 30 years old, and your teams' management is basically blowing this thing up. It's not fair to him to keep him around for 2 more years of rebuilding and, um, growing pains.

I'm not saying the Cubs are going to do anything spectacular, but on paper, and based on the recent success of last year, they're in a much better position for the post-season, and moreover, winning, than your O's at this point.

Let Roberts at least taste this and have the opportunity. He's gone in 2 years anyway. Let him try and thrive with a ballclub that at least has a chance.

Mark Grace left the Cubs for AZ. He was a Roberts-like icon in town. Still is. Nobody begrudged him for wanting to play for a potential winning team that year. He ended up winning a WS and made a nice career for himself in Phoenix.

I think you get my point.

Kinda makes you wonder why Colvin and Ceda are reported to be off the table doesn't it.

[RZNJ]

I'd be happy with Murton, Gallagher, & Cedeno.

I think I'd be happier with Gallagher, Cedeno & Colvin.

[Sports Guy]

I'd be happy with Murton, Gallagher, & Cedeno.

I think I'd be happier with Gallagher, Cedeno & Colvin.

Ultimately, i think the deal is going to be(and should be):

Veal/Colvin/Ceda
EPat
Cedeno
Gallagher

for

BRob
Payton

I do think we should include 2-3 million of Payton's salary to ensure we get the guy like EPat. I would rather pay some contract and get the 4th player.

My guess is the hold up on the deal is choosing between Veal/Ceda/Colvin.

My guess is the Cubs would do it for Veal...The Orioles probably want one of the other 2.

[olehippi]

I'd be happy with Murton, Gallagher, & Cedeno.

I think I'd be happier with Gallagher, Cedeno & Colvin.

I'll be happier when something finally happens. This whole Roberts drama has become worse than a bad "B" movie.

[RZNJ]

I'll be happier when something finally happens. This whole Roberts drama has become worse than a bad "B" movie.

Or IF something happens. LOL

Can you imagine if nothing happens? :eek:

[Sports Guy]

Can you imagine if nothing happens? :eek:

I really can't...This has been discussed for too long and each side wants it done bad enough that I would be shocked if it doesn't get done.

[olehippi]

Or IF something happens. LOL

Can you imagine if nothing happens? :eek:

I dread the thought of how many "woulda...coulda...shoulda" Roberts threads we'll have if nothing happens?

[66-70-83-??]

Or IF something happens. LOL

Can you imagine if nothing happens? :eek:

Yes, I can. :(

Then all the PA is meddling threads will come out of the closet.

[bej6789]

Are you even a fan of this team? You're dismissive of Roberts because he liked Baltimore, his teammates, and hoped to win here rather than elsewhere?

Makes no sense to me.

Perhaps I was a bit too dramatic with my response. Yes, I love the Orioles. I bleed black and orange. And I'm a firm believer that once this baseball team is back, that Baltimore has always been a baseball town. With that being said. Roberts signed a deal here, and I expect him to honor that deal. Letting him "taste" victory with another team is something I'm not a supporter of if it doesn't make us better.

[Lucky Jim]

Perhaps I was a bit too dramatic with my response. Yes, I love the Orioles. I bleed black and orange. And I'm a firm believer that once this baseball team is back, that Baltimore has always been a baseball town. With that being said. Roberts signed a deal here, and I expect him to honor that deal. Letting him "taste" victory with another team is something I'm not a supporter of if it doesn't make us better.

Fair enough. I wasn't questioning your fanhood, really (though it may have sounded like it) as much as trying to point out what I considered a contradiction.

I think Roberts is fine with staying. And he'll play hard. I think it's fair, too, if he can't help but be intrigued by playing on a contender. He's human. I'm sure he'd like to win again. Some time.

I can live with either, myself. Which I'm sure will make everyone sleep better.

[OsLuvrInKy]

Personally, and I am basing this on AM's past trades, I think the deal we see finally will be.....Pie, Gallagher, and 1-2 lower level prospects for Roberts and Payton+2-3Mil.

From everything I have watched Andy do plus what I have been reading it looks to be lining up that way. Andy stated he was open to trading his players, not giving them away. Sorry Davearm but the deal you suggest stinks!! Given that offer O's keep Brob and Chicago can try for another 100 years to win it all. Andy has the trump card again and he knows it.

[Sports Guy]

Perhaps I was a bit too dramatic with my response. Yes, I love the Orioles. I bleed black and orange. And I'm a firm believer that once this baseball team is back, that Baltimore has always been a baseball town. With that being said. Roberts signed a deal here, and I expect him to honor that deal. Letting him "taste" victory with another team is something I'm not a supporter of if it doesn't make us better.

No offense but this is ridiculous.

What about the Orioles honoring their side to it?

They have turned this organization into a laughing stock and yet you just think the players should be happy about that?

BRob has never publicly asked for a trade. While i am sure he wants one, how on earth can you belittle him for it?

[clapdiddy]

No offense but this is ridiculous.

What about the Orioles honoring their side to it?

They have turned this organization into a laughing stock and yet you just think the players should be happy about that?

BRob has never publicly asked for a trade. While i am sure he wants one, how on earth can you belittle him for it?

I get the feeling that Roberts has asked for a trade, but he's done it behind the scenes.

I wouldn't blame him if he did, and I think we need to move him. I'm still not optimistic about a deal getting done, but I'm hopeful that we do.

[lint06]

No offense but this is ridiculous.

What about the Orioles honoring their side to it?

They have turned this organization into a laughing stock and yet you just think the players should be happy about that?

BRob has never publicly asked for a trade. While i am sure he wants one, how on earth can you belittle him for it?

In no way was the man belittling BRob; he was just stating that if you sign a contract--guaranteed money, mind you--that he expects Roberts to show up and do his job, because he chose this route. Of course Brob wants to win, but the point is that no one one should just expect that we'll ship BRob off because he "deserves" it. The organization was in shambles when he signed his contract, but they are better now; so he can either weather this storm or not; be traded or not; but the the major factor in moving the man shouldn't be how much he "deserves" a shot a winning. A contract is a contract.

[davearm]

Personally, and I am basing this on AM's past trades, I think the deal we see finally will be.....Pie, Gallagher, and 1-2 lower level prospects for Roberts and Payton+2-3Mil.

From everything I have watched Andy do plus what I have been reading it looks to be lining up that way. Andy stated he was open to trading his players, not giving them away. Sorry Davearm but the deal you suggest stinks!! Given that offer O's keep Brob and Chicago can try for another 100 years to win it all. Andy has the trump card again and he knows it.
Well here's your chance to put your money where your mouth is. The bet is simple.

If Pie's in the deal, you win. If Pie's not in the deal, I win. If the deal expands beyond just Roberts and Payton, then no action. You name the stakes.

I've got one bet with Peace21, with him putting up crabcakes and me putting up Chicago style pizza. So far he's been the only taker.

So you are you in?

[bej6789]

No offense but this is ridiculous.

What about the Orioles honoring their side to it?

They have turned this organization into a laughing stock and yet you just think the players should be happy about that?

BRob has never publicly asked for a trade. While i am sure he wants one, how on earth can you belittle him for it?

Your right, when he signed the deal, I'm sure he thought the Orioles were committed to winning. I'm not saying the players should be happy about it, I'm saying the players should be happy because they get to play professional baseball. No matter if they're a cub, Oriole, or Indian. They should get together and do something about it. And while some of the teams maybe haven't been the best over these past few years. The front office hasn't screwed everything up. The players should be held accountable, too. Thats not meant to say that Brob is at fault, but these teams that have collapsed a few times in the past 10 years haven't all been the fault of the front office. Beyond my more of a rant in my first post in this thread, I don't believe that I've belitted Roberts. What I look down upon is letting a player get to win and thus trading him when the offer isn't right. I expect all sides to honor their part of the deal. If Brian doesn't like the rebuilding effort, thats fine. But thats the way the Orioles are going to win again. If we can't get an offer for him, he's going to net us comp. picks eventually. As long as he continues to play at a level that he's capable of, you won't read anything negative from me about him. That is, unless he starts whining. I'm a firm believer in coaches coach, players play.

[Lucky Jim]

In no way was the man belittling BRob; he was just stating that if you sign a contract--guaranteed money, mind you--that he expects Roberts to show up and do his job, because he chose this route. Of course Brob wants to win, but the point is that no one one should just expect that we'll ship BRob off because he "deserves" it. The organization was in shambles when he signed his contract, but they are better now; so he can either weather this storm or not; be traded or not; but the the major factor in moving the man shouldn't be how much he "deserves" a shot a winning. A contract is a contract.

This is completely backwards.

There's no insinuation or suggestion by anyone that Roberts will do anything but show up, be professional, and play hard for the Orioles.

And who said that "deserving" a winner was "the major factor"? It's just a consideration with a guy who's been the face of the franchise.

If the point is that we shouldn't trade him just to please him...well, again, who ever made that argument?

[RShack]

Personally, and I am basing this on AM's past trades, I think the deal we see finally will be.....Pie, Gallagher, and 1-2 lower level prospects for Roberts and Payton+2-3Mil.

From everything I have watched Andy do plus what I have been reading it looks to be lining up that way. Andy stated he was open to trading his players, not giving them away.
I'm no good at this trade thing, but I agree. (I already know that Cubs fans think this is nuts, no reason to go off again.) I'd guess #3 is Cedeno.

[Insomniac]

Ultimately, i think the deal is going to be(and should be):

Veal/Colvin/Ceda
EPat
Cedeno
Gallagher

for

BRob
Payton

I do think we should include 2-3 million of Payton's salary to ensure we get the guy like EPat. I would rather pay some contract and get the 4th player.

My guess is the hold up on the deal is choosing between Veal/Ceda/Colvin.

My guess is the Cubs would do it for Veal...The Orioles probably want one of the other 2.

IF this deal ever happens (and I still do not think it will), then I don't see AM pulling the trigger without a "veteran" pitcher coming back to the Os in the deal. I'm not saying I agree with him, but my gut says it's just the way it will be.

In the unlikely event this deal happens, I suspect the Cubs will have to agree to a 5-2: Gallagher, Veal, Marshall, EPat, & Cedeno for BRob & Payton. Due to the 40-man roster issues, I think this trade would also result in Trax, Fahey and Bynum finding new homes in 2008 (although I could maybe see AM keeping Trax and sending Burress down in favor of Marshall at the swing spot).

The reason I don't see this trade happening is that I don't think AM does the deal without getting this type of excessive return, and IMO the Cubs would be foolish to pay such a high cost. IMO, substituting Colvin or Ceda for Veal would make the deal that much more unlikely, even if Marquis and his ugly contract was also substituted for Marshall.

[lint06]

This is completely backwards.

There's no insinuation or suggestion by anyone that Roberts will do anything but show up, be professional, and play hard for the Orioles.

And who said that "deserving" a winner was "the major factor"? It's just a consideration with a guy who's been the face of the franchise.

If the point is that we shouldn't trade him just to please him...well, again, who ever made that argument?

I was just recapping what I believed the OP was getting at, and that he wasn't belittling BRob at all. I thought perhaps you missed his point.

[Lucky Jim]

I was just recapping what I believed the OP was getting at, and that he wasn't belittling BRob at all. I thought perhaps you missed his point.

Got it. He's taking a (I think a misplaced) hardline stance with players' ethics and obligations. Just seems odd to do so with B-Rob, who's been nothing but professional and dedicated in his time with the O's.

I think the "deserves to win" thing comes in more on our side than the Roberts; by which I mean that it's tough to let good players go, but with Roberts there's the feeling it will be good for him. And so we accept it a bit easier.

[lint06]

Got it. He's taking (I think misplaced) hardline stance with player's ethics and obligations. Just seems odd to do so with B-Rob, who's been nothing but professional and dedicated in his time with the O's.

I think the "deserves to win" thing comes in more on our side than the Roberts; by which I mean that it's tough to let good players go, but with Roberts there's the feeling it will be good for him. And so we accept it a bit easier.

I agree with you, and would certainly feel great for BRob if he did well elsewhere, which, as you pointed, is a different beast than player obligations.

[Gurgi]

Just looking back at Roberts early career. His numbers for his first 600 or so ab's seem pretty similar to what Cedeno did. Then it seemed he figured out the league by 2004 and exploded in 2005. Why couldnt Cedeno do the same? He even has the stats last year in AAA to show he could be ready. I think the people who are writing him off as just a utility player are missing the point. He has lots of upside still.

[Harry Carry]

IF this deal ever happens (and I still do not think it will), then I don't see AM pulling the trigger without a "veteran" pitcher coming back to the Os in the deal. I'm not saying I agree with him, but my gut says it's just the way it will be.

In the unlikely event this deal happens, I suspect the Cubs will have to agree to a 5-2: Gallagher, Veal, Marshall, EPat, & Cedeno for BRob & Payton. Due to the 40-man roster issues, I think this trade would also result in Trax, Fahey and Bynum finding new homes in 2008 (although I could maybe see AM keeping Trax and sending Burress down in favor of Marshall at the swing spot).

The reason I don't see this trade happening is that I don't think AM does the deal without getting this type of excessive return, and IMO the Cubs would be foolish to pay such a high cost. IMO, substituting Colvin or Ceda for Veal would make the deal that much more unlikely, even if Marquis and his ugly contract was also substituted for Marshall.I wouldn't be surprised if a player to be named later is in the deal.

[NewMarketSean]

His last 2 years in the MiL do look very nice... but before that he was underwhelming and his stints in the majors have been brutal.

I still think there is a chance that he can be good in the majors, but choosing between the two, it looks like EPatt is the more consistent player at this point, at least at the plate.

However, they are the same age and Cedeno already has 600 MLB AB's under his belt. So Cedeno might be ready to reach that next level while it might take EPatt a year or two to get to where Cedeno could be this year.

[Harry Carry]

His last 2 years in the MiL do look very nice... but before that he was underwhelming and his stints in the majors have been brutal.

I still think there is a chance that he can be good in the majors, but choosing between the two, it looks like EPatt is the more consistent player at this point, at least at the plate.

However, they are the same age and Cedeno already has 600 MLB AB's under his belt. So Cedeno might be ready to reach that next level while it might take EPatt a year or two to get to where Cedeno could be this year.I think EPat has a chance to be a Allstar type player he has all the ability and from what I have seen this spring his hard work with Trammel is paying off.His defense has really been good so far.

[CubbyFanForever]

I think EPat has a chance to be a Allstar type player he has all the ability and from what I have seen this spring his hard work with Trammel is paying off.His defense has really been good so far.

Agreed,he just has to mature a bit,his attitude is great this spring,he knows now that the team comes first,he has been working hard and it shows,I see him play,seems to get on base often,gets around the bases fast,bunts for hits,this kid can play.

[FutureOwner]

Id like them as our starting SS and 2B this year if we trade Roberts.

[ChaosLex]

I wouldn't be surprised if a player to be named later is in the deal.

Vitters?

/*ducks* ;) :D

[bej6789]

This is completely backwards.

There's no insinuation or suggestion by anyone that Roberts will do anything but show up, be professional, and play hard for the Orioles.

And who said that "deserving" a winner was "the major factor"? It's just a consideration with a guy who's been the face of the franchise.

If the point is that we shouldn't trade him just to please him...well, again, who ever made that argument?

The first page in the thread, I believe. A cubs poster made that argument, as did someone else. It's not a "major" factor, as you're implying. I'm not too sure about what you think is backwards. I'm saying that Roberts deserving to play for a winner shouldn't factor into the deal. Also, I'm saying that he has a duty to honor his contract, and whether he asked for a trade behind the scenes or not.... it doesn't matter. He signed his contract, he honors it. According to you, thats both nonsense and ridiculous. Not too sure where that is coming from.

[Harry Carry]

Vitters?

/*ducks* ;) :DTony Thomas maybe?

[CubbyFanForever]

As much as it hurts me to say this, I agree with you. Roberts does deserve better.

Let's hope there's resolution (one way or another) within the next week.

He has so much respect for the Orioles orginization and fans,hope AM can respect his wishes to have a shot at the playoffs and beyond,he is 30 years old,time is ticking.

[bej6789]

Got it. He's taking a (I think a misplaced) hardline stance with players' ethics and obligations. Just seems odd to do so with B-Rob, who's been nothing but professional and dedicated in his time with the O's.

I think the "deserves to win" thing comes in more on our side than the Roberts; by which I mean that it's tough to let good players go, but with Roberts there's the feeling it will be good for him. And so we accept it a bit easier.

Just after I post my previous point I see this. I guess you could call my stance a hardline stance with ethics and obligations. But I think the Orioles now, more than ever, need to start approaching things with that method (front office style, that is). There needs to be a system in place, with a strict hierarchy. Players on the field need to understand that the people up top make the decisions, and the people up top need to understand that they need to put winners on the field. I get frustrated when (in my opinion), one side breaches the other (not to say that Brob has breached that line). I'm saying that the Orioles are a team. And when we start to get into honoring some players wishes more so than others, we're starting up that practice of worrying about the names on the back of the jerseys more so than the front.

[bej6789]

Not saying your agreeing or disagreeing, but names that come to mind include in recent history:

1. Letting Kevin Millar open the game for the Red Sox

2. Not granting Nick Markakis the raise

3. Letting Erik Bedard rehab in Canada, while Guthrie remained with the team with the same injury

4. Continuing to trot out Jay Gibbons because he's making money, compared to producing statistics.

[Tx Oriole]

6789, since when did Roberts ever asked to be traded? This is the FO wanting to trade him for players can be used in the rebuild. And yes he signed a contract for the O's. If the O's trade him before his contract is up then it is not his fault. And i can't blame him if he goes to a team that is close to the WS or ahs a chance at it. I have bnever read where Roberts went to the FO and asked to be tarded to a Winner. It seems to me that you are just reaching for anything you can use to nail Roberts.

[hoosiers]

Just looking back at Roberts early career. His numbers for his first 600 or so ab's seem pretty similar to what Cedeno did. Then it seemed he figured out the league by 2004 and exploded in 2005. Why couldnt Cedeno do the same? He even has the stats last year in AAA to show he could be ready. I think the people who are writing him off as just a utility player are missing the point. He has lots of upside still.

Cedeno's early major league K numbers are frightening, IMO. People claim Cedeno took a big step forward last year. We'll see.

I was initially happy to take a chance on Cedeno as a small part of the BRob deal, but I am indifferent now. I do not believe Cedeno has much to offer and would just as soon take a chance on a different Cubs prospect and go in another direction at SS or 2B.

There is some attraction to buying low with Cedeno, but there's a good chance his production stays low, IMO.

[blueberryale77]

Just looking back at Roberts early career. His numbers for his first 600 or so ab's seem pretty similar to what Cedeno did. Then it seemed he figured out the league by 2004 and exploded in 2005. Why couldnt Cedeno do the same? He even has the stats last year in AAA to show he could be ready. I think the people who are writing him off as just a utility player are missing the point. He has lots of upside still.

1. Roberts improved a lot more than most people would have expected based on his early numbers. You can't expect any player with somewhat similar stats at the same stage to do the same and you wouldn't have considered 25 year old Roberts to be a major piece in a trade package for an established 30 year old star either.

2. The big difference is baseball instincts and intangibles. Roberts was always a guy who got noticed more for doing "the little things" well than for his stats. Cedeno is the type of guy who manages to get thrown out advancing to second on a walk because he was trying to steal with a three ball count, ignored the "ball four" call, and overslid the bag and couldn't get back. (Taken by itself that's just a freak lapse in judgment, but it's not uncharacteristic for a guy who has been erratic in every aspect of his game).

3. Cedeno had played in nearly 500 minor league games before his first call up; Roberts, less than 150. (Obviously that was because of college, but players who have been pro's since 18 are typically more advanced at 23 than college guys who were drafted at 21.)

I'm not completely opposed to Cedeno being included in a package, but he should be the 4th player in a 4 or 5 (with Payton going back) player deal.

[ugadawg38]

I think if yall get E patt in the deal you will be very happily surprised with him. I think he might be a good one and yall can afford to take his lumps at second. I think that is why we arent giving him a shot. We cant afford to have him playing a sloppy second base for us.

[nyjimbo]

I think if yall get E patt in the deal you will be very happily surprised with him. I think he might be a good one and yall can afford to take his lumps at second. I think that is why we arent giving him a shot. We cant afford to have him playing a sloppy second base for us.

Now there's a ringing endorsement. Thats just what our young pitching needs. The reports I've read on this spring is he's working hard at improving his defense at 2nd though. I think he'll be an adequate 4th or 5th player in the deal. Gallagher, Colvin, Marshall, EPat, +1 non-40 man roster prospect. and I'll be happy. I don't see Cubs moving Pie, and I wouldn't if I were them.

[ugadawg38]

Now there's a ringing endorsement. Thats just what our young pitching needs. The reports I've read on this spring is he's working hard at improving his defense at 2nd though. I think he'll be an adequate 4th or 5th player in the deal. Gallagher, Colvin, Marshall, EPat, +1 non-40 man roster prospect. and I'll be happy. I don't see Cubs moving Pie, and I wouldn't if I were them.

You arent going to get all of that. That is the most lopsided proposal I have seen in a while. I dont think his defense is as bad as advertised but we cant afford for him to learn on the job. I like him a lot though.

[CubbyFanForever]

6789, since when did Roberts ever asked to be traded? This is the FO wanting to trade him for players can be used in the rebuild. And yes he signed a contract for the O's. If the O's trade him before his contract is up then it is not his fault. And i can't blame him if he goes to a team that is close to the WS or ahs a chance at it. I have bnever read where Roberts went to the FO and asked to be tarded to a Winner. It seems to me that you are just reaching for anything you can use to nail Roberts.

I read that he said he does not want to be on a rebuilding team,he wants to win now,and AM told him that we will scout the other team.

[Gurgi]

The more I am looking over his minor league numbers the less I like him. He doesnt walk much.

[davearm]

2. The big difference is baseball instincts and intangibles. Roberts was always a guy who got noticed more for doing "the little things" well than for his stats. Cedeno is the type of guy who manages to get thrown out advancing to second on a walk because he was trying to steal with a three ball count, ignored the "ball four" call, and overslid the bag and couldn't get back. (Taken by itself that's just a freak lapse in judgment, but it's not uncharacteristic for a guy who has been erratic in every aspect of his game).

Frankly I could see that SB gaffe happening to any ballplayer.

You're running full-out on the pitch, and for whatever reason you're not sure what the HP ump's call was -- maybe you were screened by the hitter, maybe you see the catcher's coming up throwing, whatever -- now you're almost on the 2B bag and you gotta make a decision. If you go in standing up assuming ball 4, and are wrong and get tagged out, you look REAL stupid.

So you slide, just to be on the safe side. Well your timing was disrupted by the split-second hesitation enough that you overslide the bag. Before you can scramble back, you're tagged out.

Now I wouldn't disagree with your questioning Cedeno for his baseball smarts and instincts. I too think they're suspect. I'm just more willing than most to give him the benefit of the doubt in this particular situation.

[davearm]

The more I am looking over his minor league numbers the less I like him. He doesnt walk much.
That's been a big point of emphasis with Cedeno since the new coaching regime took over last spring.

Dusty was perfectly happy to have everyone hack away, but Lou and Gerald Perry have a much different philosophy (thank goodness).

Cedeno seemed to adjust to this new approach very quickly, and the results in ST and in the minors were quite encouraging. The results in the bigleague ABs weren't nearly as good, obviously (although the sample size is small).

[Harry Carry]

Frankly I could see that SB gaffe happening to any ballplayer.

You're running full-out on the pitch, and for whatever reason you're not sure what the HP ump's call was -- maybe you were screened by the hitter, maybe you see the catcher's coming up throwing, whatever -- now you're almost on the 2B bag and you gotta make a decision. If you go in standing up assuming ball 4, and are wrong and get tagged out, you look REAL stupid.

So you slide, just to be on the safe side. Well your timing was disrupted by the split-second hesitation enough that you overslide the bag. Before you can scramble back, you're tagged out.

Now I wouldn't disagree with your questioning Cedeno for his baseball smarts and instincts. I too think they're suspect. I'm just more willing than most to give him the benefit of the doubt in this particular situation.IMO Ronnie just needs to slow down a liitle a let the game come to him a little bit more.One thing I like about Cedeno he has ability and all the tools he just needs to get consistent playing time and he can do that in Baltimore.

[davearm]

IMO Ronnie just needs to slow down a liitle a let the game come to him a little bit more.One thing I like about Cedeno he has ability and all the tools he just needs to get consistent playing time and he can do that in Baltimore.
I think more than anything else, the kid just needs to mature. He's got the skills, he just needs the smarts and experience to go with them.

Hopefully a lot of that happened in 2007, after his failures in 2006.

[Camden_yardbird]

I don't like a cubs trade now because I don't think they are dealing from the highest position of power right now. There is one, maybe two teams interested in Roberts right now. The one thing the orioles do have is time. If they trade Roberts at the deadline they are still granting him his wish and will be dealing from a better position. If he is rational then AM talking to him and saying I just don't think this is the right time for the club will be good enough.

[JTrea81]

I think for a change of pace from the Roberts vs. DeRosa debates, it's time to address another topic. There is some concern that when Roberts leaves, that the offense will suffer because of a lack of a leadoff hitter.

I offer Eric Patterson's stats at the #1 spot for the Iowa Cubs last season

403 AB, .295 AVG, .363 OBP, .462 SLG, .824 OPS

http://www.minorleaguesplits.com/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?pl=452221&tm=IowPCL&bp=b

So if we can get Patterson back, I think he'd do fine at the leadoff spot.

[Camden_yardbird]

Why not wait and see how he improves for half a season, and then make or don't make him one of the centerpieces for a Roberts deal at the deadline.

If he figures it out: Cedeno, Ceda/veal, 2 more for Roberts, Payton

If he doesn't: then you explore other options, other teams and other players

[davearm]

If he figures it out then obviously you get a lot less with him than you can get now.

[MarCakes21]

I think for a change of pace from the Roberts vs. DeRosa debates, it's time to address another topic. There is some concern that when Roberts leaves, that the offense will suffer because of a lack of a leadoff hitter.

I offer Eric Patterson's stats at the #1 spot for the Iowa Cubs last season

403 AB, .295 AVG, .363 OBP, .462 SLG, .824 OPS

http://www.minorleaguesplits.com/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?pl=452221&tm=IowPCL&bp=b

So if we can get Patterson back, I think he'd do fine at the leadoff spot.

Do you think these kind of numbers will transfer to the Bigs though? I am not quite sold that he is ready to hit leadoff this year. I think he can a couple of years down the road though.

These are good numbers, and good enough for a leadoff guy, but I would like to see better stolen base numbers and consistency.

[Mackus]

If we get Patterson, he's undoubtedly our 2B this season and most likely the #1 or #2 hitter (with Mora filling the other hole).

He may or may not pan out, but he'll definitely be given a shot this season.

[OSfanfromCT]

If we get Patterson, he's undoubtedly our 2B this season and most likely the #1 or #2 hitter (with Mora filling the other hole).

He may or may not pan out, but he'll definitely be given a shot this season.

Where does Jones hit if Patterson and Mora are 1 and 2? Just curious how you see the lineup unfolding under this scenario. IMO, i'd rather have Jones up at the top rather than Mora, whom I see batting around six or seven in the order.

[JTrea81]

Where does Jones hit if Patterson and Mora are 1 and 2? Just curious how you see the lineup unfolding under this scenario. IMO, i'd rather have Jones up at the top rather than Mora, whom I see batting around six or seven in the order.

Patterson
Jones
Markakis
Scott
Mora
Huff
Hernandez
Moore
Cedeno

That's my dream lineup for this season...

[Fairfax Bird]

Patterson
Jones
Markakis
Scott
Mora
Huff
Hernandez
Moore
Cedeno

That's my dream lineup for this season...

That certainly is a dream. Here is the opening day lineup I think you will see:

2B Patterson
3B Mora
RF Markakis
1B Millar
DH Huff
C Hernandez
LF Scott
CF Jones
SS Cedeno

P Guthrie

[markdublya]

Patterson
Jones
Markakis
Scott
Mora
Huff
Hernandez
Moore
Cedeno

That's my dream lineup for this season...

I've heard/read a LOT this Spring that Jones initially hits more like 7th.

[OSfanfromCT]

Patterson
Jones
Markakis
Scott
Mora
Huff
Hernandez
Moore
Cedeno

That's my dream lineup for this season...

I might switch Mora and Hernandez, but that would depend on in-season performance. As of now, that seems to be in line with what i'd propose...(I assume in your dream world you've traded Millar as well)

[Mackus]

Where does Jones hit if Patterson and Mora are 1 and 2? Just curious how you see the lineup unfolding under this scenario. IMO, i'd rather have Jones up at the top rather than Mora, whom I see batting around six or seven in the order.I think I'd start with something like:

2B Patterson
3B Mora
RF Markakis
DH Huff
LF Scott
1B Millar
CF Jones
C Hernandez
SS Hernanez (or Cedeno if we get him too)

I'm assuming we take a sort of Markakis approach with Jones, start him lower in the order and move him up as he adjusts. I don't think he'll take as long as Nick did since he's already had a couple months in the bigs. Patterson I put at the top right away since a) he's gonna be a top of the lineup hitter b) we really don't have any other solid options and c) hitting isn't going to be the question mark for him, it'll be his glove.

[JTrea81]

That certainly is a dream. Here is the opening day lineup I think you will see:

2B Patterson
3B Mora
RF Markakis
1B Millar
DH Huff
C Hernandez
LF Scott
CF Jones
SS Cedeno

P Guthrie

Sadly I think you are right, because Trembley thinks Millar is a better cleanup hitter than Scott because of his handedness. Trembley won't dare to bat two lefties back to back, even if one of them had an .850 OPS against LHP last season. :rolleyes:

Patterson at leadoff, however should be a given.

[Insomniac]

I think I'd start with something like:

2B Patterson
3B Mora
RF Markakis
DH Huff
LF Scott
1B Millar
CF Jones
C Hernandez
SS Hernanez (or Cedeno if we get him too)

I'm assuming we take a sort of Markakis approach with Jones, start him lower in the order and move him up as he adjusts. I don't think he'll take as long as Nick did since he's already had a couple months in the bigs. Patterson I put at the top right away since a) he's gonna be a top of the lineup hitter b) we really don't have any other solid options and c) hitting isn't going to be the question mark for him, it'll be his glove.

Based on DT's recent comments that Mora's patience in the #2 spot pays big dividends for BRob being able to steal bases, I think Mora is almost a lock for the #2 spot whenever he is in the lineup.

[Cubsfan]

I don't like a cubs trade now because I don't think they are dealing from the highest position of power right now. There is one, maybe two teams interested in Roberts right now. The one thing the orioles do have is time. If they trade Roberts at the deadline they are still granting him his wish and will be dealing from a better position. If he is rational then AM talking to him and saying I just don't think this is the right time for the club will be good enough.

We're still waiting for any kind of proof that there's any other team that has made an offer for Roberts.

[Camden_yardbird]

We're still waiting for any kind of proof that there's any other team that has made an offer for Roberts.

That is the point. If you read the post you will find the point is that the fact that there are no teams in the mix means the Orioles are not dealing from their best position of power. Therefore I don't think the O's should deal Roberts now. Even if they do end up dealing Roberts to the cubs later for the exact same package they would get now I think its the wrong way to go about it.

Read the post.

[Cubsfan]

That is the point. If you read the post you will find the point is that the fact that there are no teams in the mix means the Orioles are not dealing from their best position of power. Therefore I don't think the O's should deal Roberts now. Even if they do end up dealing Roberts to the cubs later for the exact same package they would get now I think its the wrong way to go about it.

Read the post.

"no teams in the mix" is different that "one maybe two teams interested in Roberts". I read both posts and quoted them. There has been discussion about Roberts' value and I think most people agree that this is the point where he has maximum value. The Orioles won't be in a position of power with a Roberts' trade unless there is a catastrophic injury to a contending team's 2B and even then, most teams can fill in adequately with a sub (i.e. Ojeda for Hudson last year). Part of the the attraction is his age and two years left on his contract and those both go in a negative direction in the future.

[Owatcher]

I think if yall get E patt in the deal you will be very happily surprised with him. I think he might be a good one and yall can afford to take his lumps at second. I think that is why we arent giving him a shot. We cant afford to have him playing a sloppy second base for us.

Neither can we.

[Stevo5278]

Through games of 3/12:

Murton .367/.424/.433 (33 PAs)
Patterson .273/.333/.455 (24 PAs)
Cedeno .190/.227/.238 (23 PAs)

Gallager 6 IP, 5 H, 4 R, 4 ER, 2 BB, 5 K's
Marshall 5.1 IP, 4 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 3 BB, 4 K's

If you are interested in others they can be found here: http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?c_id=chc&baseballScope=CH2&subScope=pos&teamPosCode=all&statType=Overview&timeSubFrame=23&sitSplit=&venueID=&Submit=Submit&timeFrame=1

With numbers like that from Cedeno and LH, I'll take Brandon Fahey everyday at SS. :D

[Owatcher]

"no teams in the mix" is different that "one maybe two teams interested in Roberts". I read both posts and quoted them. There has been discussion about Roberts' value and I think most people agree that this is the point where he has maximum value. The Orioles won't be in a position of power with a Roberts' trade unless there is a catastrophic injury to a contending team's 2B and even then, most teams can fill in adequately with a sub (i.e. Ojeda for Hudson last year). Part of the the attraction is his age and two years left on his contract and those both go in a negative direction in the future.

It doesn't matter what his value is 6, 12 or 24 months from now. That is irrelevant when it comes to how the O's should value him in THIS deal. The O's have almost ALL of the leverage. The Cubs have practically none. The Cubs basically have a deadline. They want him before Opening Day and have made no effort to hide their desire. That's 2 weeks away. TIME IS RUNNING OUT! Couple that with the fact that the O's really don't need to trade him right now in this deal and it's pretty clear who's in the driver's seat.

[rynomites]

you are predicted to lose over 90 games & be buried in fifth place while opening the season w/ Steve Trachsel on the mound. Yeah...you are right...that sure sounds like a team in the drivers seat. You will then lose roberts in another year to free agency & in a year when his value will significantly decrease, but you are in the drivers seat. I'd hate to be in the back seat after seeing the driver's seat position.

[hatepaste]

you are predicted to lose over 90 games & be buried in fifth place while opening the season w/ Steve Trachsel on the mound. Yeah...you are right...that sure sounds like a team in the drivers seat. You will then lose roberts in another year to free agency & in a year when his value will significantly decrease, but you are in the drivers seat. I'd hate to be in the back seat after seeing the driver's seat position.

I've seen a few of your posts the past week or so. And I can't wait til the Brian Roberts deal goes down (with the Cubs or whoever), so I can just laugh.

What leverage have the Cubs shown? Any player that the O's have asked for, the Cubs have supposedly offered. The only exception to that is Pie, but then the rumors come out that the Cubs may trade for Crisp so they can trade Pie.

But you can call it whatever you want, front seat, back seat, I don't know. I do know that when I look in the rear view mirror, I see three world series rings from the past 100 years...And no goats in sight!

[EddeeEddee]

you are predicted to lose over 90 games & be buried in fifth place while opening the season w/ Steve Trachsel on the mound. Yeah...you are right...that sure sounds like a team in the drivers seat. You will then lose roberts in another year to free agency & in a year when his value will significantly decrease, but you are in the drivers seat. I'd hate to be in the back seat after seeing the driver's seat position.

Well, the players the Cubs are offering for Roberts don't do much to help the O's get back in the driver's seat. The O's may be better off letting Roberts play out his contract and then getting extra draft pick when (if) he leaves as a free agent.

[Bloopandablast]

I've seen a few of your posts the past week or so. And I can't wait til the Brian Roberts deal goes down (with the Cubs or whoever), so I can just laugh.

What leverage have the Cubs shown? Any player that the O's have asked for, the Cubs have supposedly offered. The only exception to that is Pie, but then the rumors come out that the Cubs may trade for Crisp so they can trade Pie.

But you can call it whatever you want, front seat, back seat, I don't know. I do know that when I look in the rear view mirror, I see three world series rings from the past 100 years...And no goats in sight!

What? While I would not argue that AM has some levereage it must not be absolute or there would already be a deal.

And any player O's have asked for the Cubs have offered? There have been dozens and dozens of posts and posters that would dispute that.

And the Cubs have been looking for a guy who can hit from the right side to supplement Pie not replace him. Those rumors have included Byrd, Willits, and Crisp, I would be very surprised if Felix is in the deal.

[ChaosLex]

But you can call it whatever you want, front seat, back seat, I don't know. I do know that when I look in the rear view mirror, I see three world series rings from the past 100 years...And no goats in sight!

Slam. Dunk. Score.

[hatepaste]

What? While I would not argue that AM has some levereage it must not be absolute or there would already be a deal.

And any player O's have asked for the Cubs have offered? There have been dozens and dozens of posts and posters that would dispute that.

And the Cubs have been looking for a guy who can hit from the right side to supplement Pie not replace him. Those rumors have included Byrd, Willits, and Crisp, I would be very surprised if Felix is in the deal.

Crisp is whining in Boston because he's not going to be starting, not sure why the Cubs would trade for him to bench him. Also, can't Murton play CF? Saw he had one game there last year.

Ok maybe AM doesn't have total control, but close to it. O's are happy with sitting on Brian Roberts. Cubs are the one that want him. O's have no plans (world series plans) this year, so they're content. The Cubs that are trying to win now; they're the ones that need him now.

[Bloopandablast]

Crisp is whining in Boston because he's not going to be starting, not sure why the Cubs would trade for him to bench him. Also, can't Murton play CF? Saw he had one game there last year.

Ok maybe AM doesn't have total control, but close to it. O's are happy with sitting on Brian Roberts. Cubs are the one that want him. O's have no plans (world series plans) this year, so they're content. The Cubs that are trying to win now; they're the ones that need him now.

I agreed with you who has more leverage, but Hendry has also shown that he is patient.

I think AM did so well with both the TeJada and Bedard trades that fans have come to expect it and think it also allows Andy to be more patient. I would agree with the more patient part, but JH obviously does not feel as pressed as Bavasi did for Bedard.

There does come a time when the rebuilding O's have to move on too and I really think the only reason that both guys have not said it's over is because they have agreed to a couple of players and agreed to make a trade adding x players from a list of y candidates. Now the O's are trying to make the best selections for them from that list. That is why the O's are waiting for the minor league camp to open.

No Murton can not play CF.

Yes Crisp has been whining about not starting and that concerns me too, but getting quite a few starts against lefties coupled with changes which happen because of double changes would mean he would get more AB's in Chicago than in Boston.

If Crisp comes I would expect that Payton does not come along with Roberts.

[ChaosLex]

Anyone else get the feeling the Cubs-O's deal is basically done, it's just that MacPhail wants a few extra days to watch Veal, Ceda, etc., on the mound before he chooses his final player (or two)? Sorry if this has been mentioned on here already!

[hatepaste]

Anyone else get the feeling the Cubs-O's deal is basically done, it's just that MacPhail wants a few extra days to watch Veal, Ceda, etc., on the mound before he chooses his final player (or two)? Sorry if this has been mentioned on here already!

That's quite possible too. I think with their previous working relationship, each guy is working real hard not to get hoodwinked by the other.

[rynomites]

theriot has been named the new leadoff hitter so it appears to me that hendry has moved on. Like I said, the Cubs appear headed to the playoffs again & you appear heading for 90 wins w/ an ex-steroid using, overpriced & soon to be FA 2B. Good luck w/ that.

[ChaosLex]

theriot has been named the new leadoff hitter so it appears to me that hendry has moved on. Like I said, the Cubs appear headed to the playoffs again & you appear heading for 90 wins w/ an ex-steroid using, overpriced & soon to be FA 2B. Good luck w/ that.

Enjoy your stay here on the Hangout! It won't be a long one.

[The Rick]

theriot has been named the new leadoff hitter so it appears to me that hendry has moved on. Like I said, the Cubs appear headed to the playoffs again & you appear heading for 90 wins w/ an ex-steroid using, overpriced & soon to be FA 2B. Good luck w/ that.

I find it hard to believe you have a red pip. :confused:

[RobertsIsMyHero]

theriot has been named the new leadoff hitter so it appears to me that hendry has moved on. Like I said, the Cubs appear headed to the playoffs again & you appear heading for 90 wins w/ an ex-steroid using, overpriced & soon to be FA 2B. Good luck w/ that.

dude backoff a bit. there are some Cubs fans here that enjoy the baseball conversation, you get a free insight into some very intelligible baseball conversations here, and your starting to ruin it. i am not a frequent poster here but i check OH everyday, just because i enjoy the level of baseball knowledge. rynomites, please stop slandering the name of Cubs fans, this site has been very gracious to all of us north siders...

[Gurgi]

theriot has been named the new leadoff hitter so it appears to me that hendry has moved on. Like I said, the Cubs appear headed to the playoffs again & you appear heading for 90 wins w/ an ex-steroid using, overpriced & soon to be FA 2B. Good luck w/ that.

You will be standing and cheering as your team wins the pennant Roberts stealing third in a tight game and coming home on a sac fly.. Any negative thoughts you might of had long forgotten as you give high fives to your drunk buddies.

While we eat some pie and celebrate the best young outfield in all of baseball. While Gallagher throws a shutout and Cedeno is the pivot of the winning double play. For the 83-79 "moving on up" Orioles.

Maybe we go out for a nice italian meal and have a nice Veal Parmesian.

[Harry Carry]

dude backoff a bit. there are some Cubs fans here that enjoy the baseball conversation, you get a free insight into some very intelligible baseball conversations here, and your starting to ruin it. i am not a frequent poster here but i check OH everyday, just because i enjoy the level of baseball knowledge. rynomites, please stop slandering the name of Cubs fans, this site has been very gracious to all of us north siders...I agree with you totally.The Orioles fans have been good to us Cubs fans IMO.

[Harry Carry]

Anyone else get the feeling the Cubs-O's deal is basically done, it's just that MacPhail wants a few extra days to watch Veal, Ceda, etc., on the mound before he chooses his final player (or two)? Sorry if this has been mentioned on here already!I think you hit the nail on the head.Minor league games start tommorow and I think this trade happens rather quickly.I still think there could be a player to be named later.That would give AM more options to see what the Orioles need.That's just my opinion.

[davearm]

It doesn't matter what his value is 6, 12 or 24 months from now. That is irrelevant when it comes to how the O's should value him in THIS deal. The O's have almost ALL of the leverage. The Cubs have practically none. The Cubs basically have a deadline. They want him before Opening Day and have made no effort to hide their desire. That's 2 weeks away. TIME IS RUNNING OUT! Couple that with the fact that the O's really don't need to trade him right now in this deal and it's pretty clear who's in the driver's seat.
LOL, what Roberts' value is 6, 12 or 24 months from now is the ONLY thing that matters.

The only chance that Roberts is a part of the next good O's team is if they overpay for his declining years, just like they did with Mora. How's that working out?

Seeing as that's not a real appealing scenario, the one and only thing MacPhail should be focused on is maximizing the return he can get by trading Roberts -- today, next month, next year, whenever.

In that context, how much his value will change (read: decline) over time is vitally important.

The O's don't have all the leverage. Their asset is depreciating (or at least the only reasonable expectation is that it will depreciate).

[davearm]

Crisp is whining in Boston because he's not going to be starting, not sure why the Cubs would trade for him to bench him. Also, can't Murton play CF? Saw he had one game there last year.

Ok maybe AM doesn't have total control, but close to it. O's are happy with sitting on Brian Roberts. Cubs are the one that want him. O's have no plans (world series plans) this year, so they're content. The Cubs that are trying to win now; they're the ones that need him now.
Yep, ten straight losing seasons with no end in sight.

The O's should be totally content.

[RZNJ]

Yep, ten straight losing seasons with no end in sight.
The O's should be totally content.

Gee! Should I break board rules and call this guy the myriad of names that are on the tip of my fingers or should I just count to 1,000 and let it slide? Hmmmmm. Believe me, I had to delete my first response. And this joke keeps talking about how the Cubs are furious with the Orioels over this trade. Well, I am sick and tired of reading this kind of crap. Hey Einstein! We know all about the 10 losing seasons in a row. I can even put up with it from an O's fan, but to repeatedly see it typed in by someone like you is INFURIATING!!!!!!!!!

P.S. I don't mind having other fans on this board. Most of them are good posters. Even this guy has his good side, but he can be a giant pain in the ... as well. Oriole fans are well aware of the losing. Keep the reminders to yourself. Thank you.

[BedardisAce]

Yep, ten straight losing seasons with no end in sight.

The O's should be totally content.

How does that mean that we should give Roberts away for less than we feel he is worth when he is our last valuable trade target? Awful logic... I expect much better from a veteran poster like you, davearm.
AM has got to be comfortable with the deal, and after the first 2 trades, I'm gonna trust him here.

[TonySoprano]

Yep, ten straight losing seasons with no end in sight.

The O's should be totally content.After 100 years without a World Series title, five losing seasons out of the last ten, generations of Cubs fans have learned what it means to be content.

[hatepaste]

Yep, ten straight losing seasons with no end in sight.

The O's should be totally content.

End is definitely in sight...

But this is going to be 11th straight year, with or without ROberts. There is some "content" in that.

[hatepaste]

How does that mean that we should give Roberts away for less than we feel he is worth when he is our last valuable trade target? Awful logic... I expect much better from a veteran poster like you, davearm.
AM has got to be comfortable with the deal, and after the first 2 trades, I'm gonna trust him here.

That's exactly what I'm saying. The 2008 season isn't going to change much for the O's with or without Roberts. MacPhail can kind of wait for Hendry to "cave in".

[davearm]

How does that mean that we should give Roberts away for less than we feel he is worth when he is our last valuable trade target? Awful logic... I expect much better from a veteran poster like you, davearm.
AM has got to be comfortable with the deal, and after the first 2 trades, I'm gonna trust him here.
Your last valuable trade chip is losing value as he gets closer to free agency.

If the O's are "content" and "happy with sitting on Brian Roberts," then they're making a big mistake IMO.

This notion that the O's have all the time in the world here is just very misguided.

At any rate, I hope this trade with the Cubs never materializes. If so, I suspect my point will be made months from now when the O's are contemplating even lesser offers at the deadline and/or next winter.

[hatepaste]

Your last valuable trade chip is losing value as he gets closer to free agency.

If the O's are "content" and "happy with sitting on Brian Roberts," then they're making a big mistake IMO.

This notion that the O's have all the time in the world here is just very misguided.

At any rate, I hope this trade with the Cubs never materializes. If so, I suspect my point will be made months from now when the O's are contemplating even lesser offers at the deadline and/or next winter.

Honestly, how much do you think his value diminishes between now and the trading deadline? I mean pick your favorite Cubs offer for Roberts now, and how do you think it changes at the deadline?

Only two things can really happen at the deadline:

More teams get interested.
Roberts has a major injury.


Roberts has been mostly durable, so I don't know about the second one. And right now, Cubs are the only ones showing major interest, so I could definitely see more teams getting involved.

[66-70-83-??]

Your last valuable trade chip is losing value as he gets closer to free agency.

If the O's are "content" and "happy with sitting on Brian Roberts," then they're making a big mistake IMO.

This notion that the O's have all the time in the world here is just very misguided.

At any rate, I hope this trade with the Cubs never materializes. If so, I suspect my point will be made months from now when the O's are contemplating even lesser offers at the deadline and/or next winter.

You are right.

Trade him NOW, right this MINUTE.

It can't wait until tomorrow. :rolleyes:

So, you would rather see Roberts stay an Oriole and lose value than have your team upgraded so they have a better shot at winning their first title in 100 years? :confused:

LOL. No more pity for Cubs fans. They are getting (100 yrs of losing) what they want.

[davearm]

Honestly, how much do you think his value diminishes between now and the trading deadline? I mean pick your favorite Cubs offer for Roberts now, and how do you think it changes at the deadline?

Only two things can really happen at the deadline:

More teams get interested.
Roberts has a major injury.


Roberts has been mostly durable, so I don't know about the second one. And right now, Cubs are the only ones showing major interest, so I could definitely see more teams getting involved.
Position players tend to bring less in return at the deadline than they do in the offseason.

Teixeira brought the Rangers a big package but you'd be very hard pressed to find another example like that. Meanwhile you've got topend guys like Bobby Abreu and Carlos Beltran and Carlos Lee being dealt for not much at all, and the Nats couldn't even get an offer on Soriano that exceeded the value of the draft pick compensation. Now granted some of those examples were 2-3 month rentals, but the general point remains.

Hopefully 4 months from now DeRosa will be playing great and the Cubs will have no interest in Roberts, and their focus will be on using their trade chips to upgrade at SS or add a good SP.

[davearm]

You are right.

Trade him NOW, right this MINUTE.

It can't wait until tomorrow. :rolleyes:

So, you would rather see Roberts stay an Oriole and lose value than have your team upgraded so they have a better shot at winning their first title in 100 years? :confused:

LOL. No more pity for Cubs fans. They are getting (100 yrs of losing) what they want.
*Sigh*

We've been over this before.

At the right price, an upgrade a would be great.

It seems abundantly obvious to anyone paying attention that MacPhail isn't interested in selling at what Hendry believes is the right price.

[allstar1579]

Yep, ten straight losing seasons with no end in sight.

The O's should be totally content.

Rather have 10 losing seasons than 100 without a WS title.

[TonySoprano]

*Sigh*

We've been over this before.

At the right price, an upgrade a would be great.

It seems abundantly obvious to anyone paying attention that MacPhail isn't interested in selling at what Hendry believes is the right price.Because Hendry believes it is the right price, does it mean that it is really the right price?

[66-70-83-??]

*Sigh*

We've been over this before.

At the right price, an upgrade a would be great.

It seems abundantly obvious to anyone paying attention that MacPhail isn't interested in selling at what Hendry believes is the right price.

OK. :confused:


I hope this trade with the Cubs never materializes

But, your quote didn't seem to indicate that sentiment.

[Sports Guy]

Yep, ten straight losing seasons with no end in sight.

The O's should be totally content.

LOL...Got to love it when a CUBS FAN points out futility.

[Sports Guy]

*Sigh*

We've been over this before.

At the right price, an upgrade a would be great.

It seems abundantly obvious to anyone paying attention that MacPhail isn't interested in selling at what Hendry believes is the right price.If it is so obvious, why hasn't Hendry broken off discussions?

[davearm]

Because Hendry believes it is the right price, does it mean that it is really the right price?
What I obviously meant by "right price" was, a price that makes sense for the Cubs.

And yes, in that matter Hendry's opinion is indeed the only one that matters.

[hatepaste]

Position players tend to bring less in return at the deadline than they do in the offseason.

Teixeira brought the Rangers a big package but you'd be very hard pressed to find another example like that. Meanwhile you've got topend guys like Bobby Abreu and Carlos Beltran and Carlos Lee being dealt for not much at all, and the Nats couldn't even get an offer on Soriano that exceeded the value of the draft pick compensation. Now granted some of those examples were 2-3 month rentals, but the general point remains.

Hopefully 4 months from now DeRosa will be playing great and the Cubs will have no interest in Roberts, and their focus will be on using their trade chips to upgrade at SS or add a good SP.

Woah...Hold up a little bit. Bobby Abreu was basically a salary dump.

Carlos Lee - Got traded for Kevin Mench (was averaging .270 -25 homers at the big league level for past 3 years when traded), and was prolly looked at as a replacement for Lee, and they got Francisco cordero, who is one of the better closers in the league. These were both players who had performed at the major league level

Beltran - None of the players KC got has performed well, and I don't know how they were looked at when the trade happened...Mike Wood, Mark Teahan and John Buck. Alll seemed to have pretty good minor league stats, at first glance.

As for Soriano, who knows what th Nats were looking at. I know they let out that they thought they could sign him long turn, so maybe that's why they didn't trade him.

But again...Assuming if Derosa is so-so, and Cubs still interested in Roberts. How do you think their offer changes from where it is now?

[monstermjp]

After 100 years without a World Series title, five losing seasons out of the last ten, generations of Cubs fans have learned what it means to be content.

You took the words right out of my mouth. +rep

[Cubsfan]

It doesn't matter what his value is 6, 12 or 24 months from now. That is irrelevant when it comes to how the O's should value him in THIS deal. The O's have almost ALL of the leverage. The Cubs have practically none. The Cubs basically have a deadline. They want him before Opening Day and have made no effort to hide their desire. That's 2 weeks away. TIME IS RUNNING OUT! Couple that with the fact that the O's really don't need to trade him right now in this deal and it's pretty clear who's in the driver's seat.

There's no doubt that the O's are in the driver's seat, which is why this deal is taking so long to complete. As for what his value will be in 6, 12, or 24 months, I think it should (and does) matter to Angelos, McPhail, and the fans. With all of the discussion about the "face of the franchise", "great community person", "he's worth 5 players", etc., he will be traded for much less in 6 or 12 months and next to nothing in 24 months. Regardless of anybody's opinion of McPhail and Angelos, they're business men and they know that it's much better to sell high than to sell low. As I pointed out in another post, part of the attraction to Roberts is his age and two years left on his contact. Why do you think you got more for Bedard than the Twins got for Santana? The age and contract part of the attraction puts the O's on the timeclock too.

[Old#5fan]

You are right.

Trade him NOW, right this MINUTE.

It can't wait until tomorrow. :rolleyes:

So, you would rather see Roberts stay an Oriole and lose value than have your team upgraded so they have a better shot at winning their first title in 100 years? :confused:

LOL. No more pity for Cubs fans. They are getting (100 yrs of losing) what they want.

Roberts could also have an -all-star caliber year and increase his trade value couldn't he? I see no reason to be in such a great haste to unload one of the best leadoff hitters the Orioles have ever had. He will also be hard to replace.

[Old#5fan]

There's no doubt that the O's are in the driver's seat, which is why this deal is taking so long to complete. As for what his value will be in 6, 12, or 24 months, I think it should (and does) matter to Angelos, McPhail, and the fans. With all of the discussion about the "face of the franchise", "great community person", "he's worth 5 players", etc., he will be traded for much less in 6 or 12 months and next to nothing in 24 months. Regardless of anybody's opinion of McPhail and Angelos, they're business men and they know that it's much better to sell high than to sell low. As I pointed out in another post, part of the attraction to Roberts is his age and two years left on his contact. Why do you think you got more for Bedard than the Twins got for Santana? The age and contract part of the attraction puts the O's on the timeclock too.

Unless you have a crystal ball you have no way of knowing that Roberts trade value will go down in 6-12 months. Granted as he gets closer to becoming a free agent it will go down but not this soon.

[Cubsfan]

Anyone else get the feeling the Cubs-O's deal is basically done, it's just that MacPhail wants a few extra days to watch Veal, Ceda, etc., on the mound before he chooses his final player (or two)? Sorry if this has been mentioned on here already!

It was posted before in January (3 times), February (108 times), and March (92 times and counting).:D :D :D :D :D

[Sports Guy]

Roberts could also have an -all-star caliber year and increase his trade value couldn't he? I see no reason to be in such a great haste to unload one of the best leadoff hitters the Orioles have ever had. He will also be hard to replace.

The only way his value increases is if come July 31, he is having a very good year, has been healthy AND he has several teams gunning for him.

The last part is the key...The longer you wait to trade him, the less time a team has for him to be on their roster which is obviously why his value could go down.

But if by July 31, the Cubs still want him, the Rockies are involved and perhaps another team or 2, his value may be higher than it is right now.

However, you are relying on a lot of things to happen there and its not worth the risk if you can get a good deal now, which the Orioles can.

[ugadawg38]

Neither can we.


Of course you can. If your not contending there is no reason not to trot him out there and let him get some experience. He could not be worse than Todd Walker.

[davearm]

Woah...Hold up a little bit. Bobby Abreu was basically a salary dump.

Carlos Lee - Got traded for Kevin Mench (was averaging .270 -25 homers at the big league level for past 3 years when traded), and was prolly looked at as a replacement for Lee, and they got Francisco cordero, who is one of the better closers in the league. These were both players who had performed at the major league level

Beltran - None of the players KC got has performed well, and I don't know how they were looked at when the trade happened...Mike Wood, Mark Teahan and John Buck. Alll seemed to have pretty good minor league stats, at first glance.

As for Soriano, who knows what th Nats were looking at. I know they let out that they thought they could sign him long turn, so maybe that's why they didn't trade him.

But again...Assuming if Derosa is so-so, and Cubs still interested in Roberts. How do you think their offer changes from where it is now?
I anticipate the Cubs' offer would go down.

The Cubs have a lot of somewhat goofy theories, and one of them is that there's some urgency to get Roberts right now because a) they play most of April outdoors in cold-weather cities, making HRs rarer and "small ball" more important, and b) they want to get out of the gates quickly unlike last year, so they don't have to play catchup again.

Couple that with the fact that Roberts will be that much closer to free agency come July, and you've got some good reasons why the Cubs could be less interested then than they are now.

[hoosiers]

Position players tend to bring less in return at the deadline than they do in the offseason.

Teixeira brought the Rangers a big package but you'd be very hard pressed to find another example like that. Meanwhile you've got topend guys like Bobby Abreu and Carlos Beltran and Carlos Lee being dealt for not much at all, and the Nats couldn't even get an offer on Soriano that exceeded the value of the draft pick compensation. Now granted some of those examples were 2-3 month rentals, but the general point remains.

Hopefully 4 months from now DeRosa will be playing great and the Cubs will have no interest in Roberts, and their focus will be on using their trade chips to upgrade at SS or add a good SP.

Wasn't Abreau a salary dump? Weren't the Nats offered more than the picks by at least one team - the Twins who offered Garza? None of these guys were dealt with two years remaining on their contracts are poor comps.

I don't understand the last paragraph either. Why upgrade at SS when Ronny Cedeno is waiting in the wings?

[Cubsfan]

Honestly, how much do you think his value diminishes between now and the trading deadline? I mean pick your favorite Cubs offer for Roberts now, and how do you think it changes at the deadline?

Only two things can really happen at the deadline:

More teams get interested.
Roberts has a major injury.

Roberts has been mostly durable, so I don't know about the second one. And right now, Cubs are the only ones showing major interest, so I could definitely see more teams getting involved.

You forgot one option:
Less teams are interested. As many have pointed out in other posts, look at trade deadline deals and look at the returns in those deals. The first thing you will notice is that there are very few deals involving a 2B. Most of the deals involve starting pitchers or middle-of-the-order hitters. The return is usually a couple of AA prospects.

[66-70-83-??]

Roberts could also have an -all-star caliber year and increase his trade value couldn't he? I see no reason to be in such a great haste to unload one of the best leadoff hitters the Orioles have ever had. He will also be hard to replace.

Umm, I was being sarcastic when I stated to trade him NOW.

Hence, the :rolleyes:

[ChaosLex]

Anyone else get the feeling the Cubs-O's deal is basically done, it's just that MacPhail wants a few extra days to watch Veal, Ceda, etc., on the mound before he chooses his final player (or two)? Sorry if this has been mentioned on here already!

It was posted before in January (3 times), February (108 times), and March (92 times and counting).:D :D :D :D :D

Well, once more won't hurt. ;)

[hatepaste]

I anticipate the Cubs' offer would go down.

The Cubs have a lot of somewhat goofy theories, and one of them is that there's some urgency to get Roberts right now because a) they play most of April outdoors in cold-weather cities, making HRs rarer and "small ball" more important, and b) they want to get out of the gates quickly unlike last year, so they don't have to play catchup again.

Couple that with the fact that Roberts will be that much closer to free agency come July, and you've got some good reasons why the Cubs could be less interested then than they are now.

How does it go down, though, that's what I"m asking. If the offer is Gallagher, Cedeno, Veal and Patterson...Does Veal get dropped? Or gallagher? How specifically do you think it'll change.

[davearm]

How does it go down, though, that's what I"m asking. If the offer is Gallagher, Cedeno, Veal and Patterson...Does Veal get dropped? Or gallagher? How specifically do you think it'll change.
How the heck can I answer that?

Between now and July, some of the Cubs' guys will play great and exceed expectations, and their trade values will be enhanced. Others will struggle and disappoint, and their trade values will be diminished. And one or two might be hurt.

Between March '07 and July '07, Donald Veal's stock took a huge hit, whild Geo Soto's stock skyrocketed. The same thing will probably happen again this year, but there's no possible way to put names to the arrows.

The best we can say is that the landscape will look different in July than it does now.

[rynomites]

how does it change? Like this. The Cubs decide to put theriot in the leadoff spot & trade prospects to toronto for AJ Burnett. That would take chicago out of the running. One less team interested. How's that for a change?

[davearm]

how does it change? Like this. The Cubs decide to put theriot in the leadoff spot & trade prospects to toronto for AJ Burnett. That would take chicago out of the running. One less team interested. How's that for a change?
Burnett will definitely be a guy to keep an eye on. Very interesting situation developing there.

[Sports Guy]

how does it change? Like this. The Cubs decide to put theriot in the leadoff spot & trade prospects to toronto for AJ Burnett. That would take chicago out of the running. One less team interested. How's that for a change?

And when do you think this would happen?

With Jannsen out for the year, they likely aren't trading AJ anytime soon.

And if it were to happen now, that doesn't mean they still wouldn't/couldn't trade for BRob.

[hatepaste]

You forgot one option:
Less teams are interested. As many have pointed out in other posts, look at trade deadline deals and look at the returns in those deals. The first thing you will notice is that there are very few deals involving a 2B. Most of the deals involve starting pitchers or middle-of-the-order hitters. The return is usually a couple of AA prospects.

Well couple of things there...There isn't that many high quality second basemen in the league, let alone middle-of-the-order ones. So when they do get traded, they don't make the headlines like a Lee, Teixeira or whoever else. Plus by default there are 3 times as many OF's in the league then 2B. Good 2B are hard to come by, so they don't usually get traded.

Closest trade I can find is:

Julio Lugo
for
3B Joel Guzman
OF Sergio Pedroza

And I don't know much about either of those prospects, but both have put up good numbers in the minors. And Roberts is a much better then Lugo.

Less teams could be interested...But looking at contending teams...NY Mets and Seattle could possibly be interested; they could use a second basemen. But if the general consensus is that one team is interested now, I highly doubt that there will be NO teams interested in July.

[ChaosLex]

how does it change? Like this. The Cubs decide to put theriot in the leadoff spot & trade prospects to toronto for AJ Burnett. That would take chicago out of the running. One less team interested. How's that for a change?

I think the Cubs could trade for something better than an oft-injured starting pitcher.

[ChaosLex]

And when do you think this would happen?

With Jannsen out for the year, they likely aren't trading AJ anytime soon.

And if it were to happen now, that doesn't mean they still wouldn't/couldn't trade for BRob.

The Blue Jays are struggling to find starting pitchers? Interesting.

Considering our surplus, I'd love to find a way to nab Snider. He's probably off-limits though.

[hatepaste]

how does it change? Like this. The Cubs decide to put theriot in the leadoff spot & trade prospects to toronto for AJ Burnett. That would take chicago out of the running. One less team interested. How's that for a change?

Right...Toronto has eyes of competing for the playoffs this year. I'm sure they'll just drop out so they can trade with Chicago.

And if it does happen, and the Cubs get Burnett...At least that'll be one less person in the stands who could potential interfere with a foul ball; he'll at least know better.

[davearm]

Right...Toronto has eyes of competing for the playoffs this year. I'm sure they'll just drop out so they can trade with Chicago.

And if it does happen, and the Cubs get Burnett...At least that'll be one less person in the stands who could potential interfere with a foul ball; he'll at least know better.
The hypothetical question you asked pertained to what the Cubs might be looking to do at the trade deadline, and how their offer for Roberts might be different then. So we're talking about what may or may not be brewing months from now.

IMO AJ Burnett is a strong candidate to be on the trade block this July. If Burnett is healthy and pitching well (pretty likely), and Toronto is out of the race (quite likely), then Ricciardi ought to be looking to move him.

And adding a quality starter could very well be at the top of the Cubs' priority list come the deadline.

[Gurgi]

And adding a quality starter could very well be at the top of the Cubs' priority list come the deadline.

I think Hendry would want to get Traschel again!:D

[rynomites]

when? try tomorrow as theriot is being moved to the leadoff spot on friday. if that works out, then the brob need is not there. keep in mind, the cubs are happy w/ derosa but not happy w/ soriano leading off. that is the reason they were chasing brob. the jays are not happy w/ burnett & i've read they are not looking to resign. this one has been rumored before as has blanton from the a's. me thinks the back end of the cub rotation will become more of a pressing need once the season starts than a leadoff hitter. The market for roberts will only go down from here.

[hatepaste]

when? try tomorrow as theriot is being moved to the leadoff spot on friday. if that works out, then the brob need is not there. keep in mind, the cubs are happy w/ derosa but not happy w/ soriano leading off. that is the reason they were chasing brob. the jays are not happy w/ burnett & i've read they are not looking to resign. this one has been rumored before as has blanton from the a's. me thinks the back end of the cub rotation will become more of a pressing need once the season starts than a leadoff hitter. The market for roberts will only go down from here.

That .326 OBP last year from Theriot will be huge in the leadoff spot.

[Sports Guy]

when? try tomorrow as theriot is being moved to the leadoff spot on friday. if that works out, then the brob need is not there. keep in mind, the cubs are happy w/ derosa but not happy w/ soriano leading off. that is the reason they were chasing brob. the jays are not happy w/ burnett & i've read they are not looking to resign. this one has been rumored before as has blanton from the a's. me thinks the back end of the cub rotation will become more of a pressing need once the season starts than a leadoff hitter. The market for roberts will only go down from here.

Is this english?

[Intimidator301]

when? try tomorrow as theriot is being moved to the leadoff spot on friday. if that works out, then the brob need is not there. keep in mind, the cubs are happy w/ derosa but not happy w/ soriano leading off. that is the reason they were chasing brob. the jays are not happy w/ burnett & i've read they are not looking to resign. this one has been rumored before as has blanton from the a's. me thinks the back end of the cub rotation will become more of a pressing need once the season starts than a leadoff hitter. The market for roberts will only go down from here.

Well, I hope that the Cubs have moved on. I don't see much in any rumored deals that makes me too excited.

The Blue Jays don't have to resign Burnett, he already signed thru 2010 I believe, however he can opt out of the deal after 08.

How will Cubs fans feel when the Jays are asking for Gallagher, Marhshall, and Colvin/Veal/Marmol for a 2 month rental in Burnett, or Beane asks for Pie and Gallagher for Blanton?

[ugadawg38]

when? try tomorrow as theriot is being moved to the leadoff spot on friday. if that works out, then the brob need is not there. keep in mind, the cubs are happy w/ derosa but not happy w/ soriano leading off. that is the reason they were chasing brob. the jays are not happy w/ burnett & i've read they are not looking to resign. this one has been rumored before as has blanton from the a's. me thinks the back end of the cub rotation will become more of a pressing need once the season starts than a leadoff hitter. The market for roberts will only go down from here.

Seriously please stop posting this type of uninformed trash. Moving Theriot up now makes it more likely to acquire Roberts. I get that you are frustrated but dont come on to this board break their rules and just act disrespectful. We arent getting Burnett and Blanton doesnt strike any one out. Re-evaluate what you are doing here please because you give other Cubs fans who post here to talk baseball a bad name.

[rynomites]

speak for yourself. Hendry isn't going to pay more than market value for roberts & I don't see anyone else clamoring for him. soriano had a lower obp than theriot so what's your point? the fact that theriot has been moved to that spot tells me that plan b has been put into motion & that doesn't involve roberts. He will not mortgage the future for him. It doesn't look like anyone else is either.

[nyjimbo]

Position players tend to bring less in return at the deadline than they do in the offseason.

Teixeira brought the Rangers a big package but you'd be very hard pressed to find another example like that. Meanwhile you've got topend guys like Bobby Abreu and Carlos Beltran and Carlos Lee being dealt for not much at all, and the Nats couldn't even get an offer on Soriano that exceeded the value of the draft pick compensation. Now granted some of those examples were 2-3 month rentals, but the general point remains.

Hopefully 4 months from now DeRosa will be playing great and the Cubs will have no interest in Roberts, and their focus will be on using their trade chips to upgrade at SS or add a good SP.

Isn't this what Cedeno and Gallagher allegedly are? Make a choice, are they solid major leaguers or garbage? You've been ramming this down our throats for months!

[ugadawg38]

speak for yourself. Hendry isn't going to pay more than market value for roberts & I don't see anyone else clamoring for him. soriano had a lower obp than theriot so what's your point? the fact that theriot has been moved to that spot tells me that plan b has been put into motion & that doesn't involve roberts. He will not mortgage the future for him. It doesn't look like anyone else is either.

One last post on this but Theriot goes to the leadoff to tell hendry "look i will really bat our worse hitter leadoff all year, if you really want to do that fine but you are the one with a contract up after this year not me. GO GET ME ROBERTS NOW!!"

Market value for Roberts is what the teams agree on. What I think is fair is Gallagher, Cedeno, Patterson, and Ceda/Veal... Roberts I have come to the conclusion is very close to an elite second baseman. One that would put the Cubs over the edge.

I agree that no other teams are interested in him as of now.

[hatepaste]

speak for yourself. Hendry isn't going to pay more than market value for roberts & I don't see anyone else clamoring for him. soriano had a lower obp than theriot so what's your point? the fact that theriot has been moved to that spot tells me that plan b has been put into motion & that doesn't involve roberts. He will not mortgage the future for him. It doesn't look like anyone else is either.

Really, do you even know what you're talking? Honestlly, now.

Soriano had a HIGHER (check that, HIGHER) OBP then Theriot. Ohh and he hit 30 more homers, and makes a ton more money.

[Harry Carry]

I think the Cubs could trade for something better than an oft-injured starting pitcher.I agree with you Burnett would be a huge mistake.

[hatepaste]

One last post on this but Theriot goes to the leadoff to tell hendry "look i will really bat our worse hitter leadoff all year, if you really want to do that fine but you are the one with a contract up after this year not me. GO GET ME ROBERTS NOW!!"

Market value for Roberts is what the teams agree on. What I think is fair is Gallagher, Cedeno, Patterson, and Ceda/Veal... Roberts I have come to the conclusion is very close to an elite second baseman. One that would put the Cubs over the edge.

I agree that no other teams are interested in him as of now.

I would say Utley is the only better second basemen in the majors.

Cubs fans are just trying to justify not trading for Roberts at this point. They are making up excuses for Hendry; we got Theriot! We got Derosa!

I'm glad the O's didn't go after Torri Hunter, Andruw Jones or Fukudome. I mean we already have Aubrey Huff waiting in the wings. He had a higher OPS then Jones! No need for him.

Well maybe we should do it. I mean outfielders that have low OBP's, hit homers and strikeout a lot make great leadoff hitters.

[Cubsfan]

Well couple of things there...There isn't that many high quality second basemen in the league, let alone middle-of-the-order ones. So when they do get traded, they don't make the headlines like a Lee, Teixeira or whoever else. Plus by default there are 3 times as many OF's in the league then 2B. Good 2B are hard to come by, so they don't usually get traded.

Closest trade I can find is:

Julio Lugo
for
3B Joel Guzman
OF Sergio Pedroza

And I don't know much about either of those prospects, but both have put up good numbers in the minors. And Roberts is a much better then Lugo.

Less teams could be interested...But looking at contending teams...NY Mets and Seattle could possibly be interested; they could use a second basemen. But if the general consensus is that one team is interested now, I highly doubt that there will be NO teams interested in July.

Another point that I have posted a few times is that contending teams usually have a strong enough lineup to get by with a substitute 2B in the case of an injury. A perfect example was Ojeda playing when Hudson got hurt. One of the underlying issues in this trade is the fact that Roberts is very good offensively at a position that offense is not really expected. (Quite awhile ago, one poster said it best "baseball treats 2B like a red-headed step child"). The fact Roberts is good at a non-offensive position and the O's are bad leads to overvaluation of Roberts.

[hatepaste]

Another point that I have posted a few times is that contending teams usually have a strong enough lineup to get by with a substitute 2B in the case of an injury. A perfect example was Ojeda playing when Hudson got hurt. One of the underlying issues in this trade is the fact that Roberts is very good offensively at a position that offense is not really expected. (Quite awhile ago, one poster said it best "baseball treats 2B like a red-headed step child"). The fact Roberts is good at a non-offensive position and the O's are bad leads to overvaluation of Roberts.

Sure you can get by with a mediocre second basement (offensively). But can you get by without a leadoff hitter?

And yes, Ojeda was a great substitute. But is losing in the playoffs want the Cubs have their eyes on?

Cubs have a good lineup, but seems like there is a lot of question marks. Someone (DaveARM?) posted they are starting 3 rookies. You have no idea what Fukodome is going to do. As good as half your lineup is, is equal to how bad the other half could be.

[WebLink21]

speak for yourself. Hendry isn't going to pay more than market value for roberts & I don't see anyone else clamoring for him. soriano had a lower obp than theriot so what's your point? the fact that theriot has been moved to that spot tells me that plan b has been put into motion & that doesn't involve roberts. He will not mortgage the future for him. It doesn't look like anyone else is either.

Why do you use capitalization sometimes and then other times not use it? I am not even going to go into the punctuation errors. I think Sports Guy asked a very good question about this being English.

[Harry Carry]

Why do you use capitalization sometimes and then other times not use it? I am not even going to go into the punctuation errors. I think Sports Guy asked a very good question about this being English.The market value for Roberts is what AM and Hendry agree on plain and simple.

[WebLink21]

The market value for Roberts is what AM and Hendry agree on plain and simple.

I agree with you 100%

[hatepaste]

Why do you use capitalization sometimes and then other times not use it? I am not even going to go into the punctuation errors. I think Sports Guy asked a very good question about this being English.

Who needs punctuation when you got Ryan Theriot??!?!?

[hatepaste]

I agree with you 100%

Yah I've been saying that over and over, cause some of the cubs fans are talking about Roberts being overvalued. He is valued at whatever someone is willing to give up for him. Probably find out what this is soon enough.

[Mackus]

But can you get by without a leadoff hitter?No, you can't. But only in the sense that MLB forces you to have somebody bat first for you each game.

Teams can win without a "stereotypical leadoff hitter". Teams don't neccesarily need a slap-hitting fast guy leading off.

[Harry Carry]

Yah I've been saying that over and over, cause some of the cubs fans are talking about Roberts being overvalued. He is valued at whatever someone is willing to give up for him. Probably find out what this is soon enough.I am A Cub fan that really likes Roberts.You put him in the leadoff spot and that lineup will be plain out scarry.The only guy I don't want to go is Pie simply because he is are CF.I am sure AM and Hendry are working on a package that will be 4 players.The package will probably be from the players we have talked about.

[Cubsfan]

Sure you can get by with a mediocre second basement (offensively). But can you get by without a leadoff hitter?

And yes, Ojeda was a great substitute. But is losing in the playoffs want the Cubs have their eyes on?
Cubs have a good lineup, but seems like there is a lot of question marks. Someone (DaveARM?) posted they are starting 3 rookies. You have no idea what Fukodome is going to do. As good as half your lineup is, is equal to how bad the other half could be.

Well, it depends on what you mean by a leadoff hitter? If you mean a "traditional" leadoff man, that's one thing, but Soriano has batted leadoff for much of his career and the stats prove he hits better in the leadoff position. I'm not a "stats geek", but I've seen arguments from people stating that the position in the lineup doesn't really matter when it comes to the number of runs scored (I don't necessarily agree). These same posters point out that "leadoff" isn't a position. To answer your second point, no losing in the playoffs isn't what the Cubs have their eyes on, but while acquiring Roberts does make us better, it doesn't guarantee that we will make the playoffs or win in the playoffs.

[WebLink21]

Yah I've been saying that over and over, cause some of the cubs fans are talking about Roberts being overvalued. He is valued at whatever someone is willing to give up for him. Probably find out what this is soon enough.

I gave up on arguing about it. I don't think either side will give in to the other so I don't even like to get involved anymore. I am just waiting to see when/if it goes down. I just hope we get a good package. I think we will if the trade goes down. AM has given me all the confidence that I need from the Bedard/Tejada trades that he will do the right thing.

[WebLink21]

I am A Cub fan that really likes Roberts.You put him in the leadoff spot and that lineup will be plain out scarry.The only guy I don't want to go is Pie simply because he is are CF.I am sure AM and Hendry are working on a package that will be 4 players.The package will probably be from the players we have talked about.

I said this in an earlier thread. It may have been this one. They are all blending together to me. haha. I really think that if you get Roberts to be your leadoff hitter, your offense becomes very scary. I would put them right up there with any other lineup as far as projected production.

[NCRaven]

No, you can't. But only in the sense that MLB forces you to have somebody bat first for you each game.

Teams can win without a "stereotypical leadoff hitter". Teams don't neccesarily need a slap-hitting fast guy leading off.

But that isn't what Roberts is. He hits doubles and enough homeruns to make it interesting. He has a very good onbase percentage, which is even more important than his base stealing which can only come into play once you're on base in the first place. He is an excellent "all-round" leadoff hitter, not just a "slap-hitting fast guy.

[davearm]

If you want a listing of the best leadoff hitters in baseball, then just go to mlb.com's stat page and sort on OBP. There's your list right there.

Getting onbase is the single most important thing for a leadoff hitter to do. (For that matter it's the single most important thing for all hitters to do, but leadoff hitters especially). Seeing a lot of pitches is nice too, but again that's valuable anywhere in the lineup. The speed element is nice, but in my experience significantly overrated.

Guys like Scott Hatteberg and Kevin Youkilis have been terrific leadoff hitters.

Adam Dunn would be a great leadoff hitter. Heck Barry Bonds would too.

[davearm]

Isn't this what Cedeno and Gallagher allegedly are? Make a choice, are they solid major leaguers or garbage? You've been ramming this down our throats for months!
Guys like Gallagher and Cedeno and the rest are all potential. The odds are good that they'll be solid major leaguers (perhaps more than that even), but it might not happen right away, since they're still developing and gaining experience.

The O's are in a position where they won't be contending this year, so they should be stockpiling as many guys like this as they can get their hands on, since whatever happens this year, in terms of wins and losses, is mostly irrelevant to the big picture, and they've got all kinds of time to be patient with the developmental process.

The Cubs are in the exact opposite situation. They're trying to win now, and have a limited tolerance for suffering through the typical growing pains. Dealing away future potential for an immediate boost from a proven vet makes perfect sense.

But all of this should be commonly understood and immediately obvious to anyone on this board. This is like kindergarten level stuff here.

It's always amusing when folks get so fired up and desperate to try and stick it to another poster with some "gotcha" post that they end up making themselves look bad.

[hatepaste]

Well, it depends on what you mean by a leadoff hitter? If you mean a "traditional" leadoff man, that's one thing, but Soriano has batted leadoff for much of his career and the stats prove he hits better in the leadoff position. I'm not a "stats geek", but I've seen arguments from people stating that the position in the lineup doesn't really matter when it comes to the number of runs scored (I don't necessarily agree). These same posters point out that "leadoff" isn't a position. To answer your second point, no losing in the playoffs isn't what the Cubs have their eyes on, but while acquiring Roberts does make us better, it doesn't guarantee that we will make the playoffs or win in the playoffs.

Of course it doesn't guarantee a playoff spot, world series spot or win. But it's all about playing percentages. Roberts give you another way of being able to win games/score runs; get on base, steal bases, get home. Don't really have anyone in your lineup that can do this. So, while you have a lot of big HR guys, you need to diversify your lineup a bit.

I've seen the stats about Soriano, hitting like 3rd, 4th and leadoff. I haven't studied them that much so I can't comment. But I do have questions about them...Like who was hitting behind him/in front of him in each of those spots? Like when he was hitting 3rd in the Nat's much weaker lineup? Those would bear lower stats (not to mention how big the park is).

[Frobby]

Through games of 3/12 (now updated as of 3/19):

Murton .367/.424/.433 (33 PAs) .350/.409/.400 (44 PAs)
Patterson .273/.333/.455 (24 PAs) .290/.353/.419 (34 PAs)
Cedeno .190/.227/.238 (23 PAs) .269/.296/.423 (27 PAs)

Gallager 6 IP, 5 H, 4 R, 4 ER, 2 BB, 5 K's
Marshall 5.1 IP, 4 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 3 BB, 4 K's 8.1 IP, 8 H, 4 R, 3 ER, 4 BB, 6 K's

If you are interested in others they can be found here: http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?c_id=chc&baseballScope=CH2&subScope=pos&teamPosCode=all&statType=Overview&timeSubFrame=23&sitSplit=&venueID=&Submit=Submit&timeFrame=1

Note that Gallagher hasn't pitched in a week (was he reassigned to minor league camp?), and Cedeno has been limited to 4 PA's (pulled hamstring I believe).

[Ruzious]

If you want a listing of the best leadoff hitters in baseball, then just go to mlb.com's stat page and sort on OBP. There's your list right there.

Getting onbase is the single most important thing for a leadoff hitter to do. (For that matter it's the single most important thing for all hitters to do, but leadoff hitters especially). Seeing a lot of pitches is nice too, but again that's valuable anywhere in the lineup. The speed element is nice, but in my experience significantly overrated.

Guys like Scott Hatteberg and Kevin Youkilis have been terrific leadoff hitters.

Adam Dunn would be a great leadoff hitter. Heck Barry Bonds would too.
Barry Bonds was a leadoff hitter back in his 180 lb days.

I think there's a big difference between leading off in the AL vs the NL - simply because it's not an RBI position in the NL - due to the pitcher batting 9th and most NL teams not having a good #8 hitter. I would not feel comfortable batting Dunn leadoff in the NL.

[Harry Carry]

Note that Gallagher hasn't pitched in a week (was he reassigned to minor league camp?), and Cedeno has been limited to 4 PA's (pulled hamstring I believe). Cedeno played yesterday and went 3for3 so he is fine. Gallagher is getting a start I believe Friday or Saturday.

[RZNJ]

Someone posted that Gallagher hadn't pitched in awhile. Unless he pitched in a minor league game, it looks like they skipped his turn. Now, on the same day Loewen is out of control, Gallagher comes in, in relief, and goes 1/3 of an innign and walks 3 guys. Something going on there? Injury? Just asking, Cub fans.

[Harry Carry]

Someone posted that Gallagher hadn't pitched in awhile. Unless he pitched in a minor league game, it looks like they skipped his turn. Now, on the same day Loewen is out of control, Gallagher comes in, in relief, and goes 1/3 of an innign and walks 3 guys. Something going on there? Injury? Just asking, Cub fans. Gallagher is supposed to get a start on Friday I believe. Lou is skipping Z to set him up for opening day. Z will pitch a couple innings in the minor league camp.

[clarence]

Gallagher is probably doing his best to fail right now, hoping he doesn't get dealt to the O's. I wouldn't read too much into his line. It just shows the kid has a good head on his shoulders. I've been an O's fan all my life and I don't know if I would want to pitch in the ALEast for the O's with the lineup we are going to be running out there.

[The Rick]

Gallagher is probably doing his best to fail right now, hoping he doesn't get dealt to the O's. I wouldn't read too much into his line. It just shows the kid has a good head on his shoulders. I've been an O's fan all my life and I don't know if I would want to pitch in the ALEast for the O's with the lineup we are going to be running out there.

I hear what you are saying, but I doubt this is the case at all. That kind of mindset would set the kid up for failure in general. What happens when the Cubbies reach the WS and are facing the Yanks or Sox? Duck and run?

[RZNJ]

I hear what you are saying, but I doubt this is the case at all. That kind of mindset would set the kid up for failure in general. What happens when the Cubbies reach the WS and are facing the Yanks or Sox? Duck and run?

I assumed that Clarence's post was a joke. :confused:

[The Rick]

I assumed that Clarence's post was a joke. :confused:

Could have been. I've heard radio shows talking about Cedeno possibly tanking it this spring because he doesn't want to go to the O's. Which doesn't make sense because I believe he's out of options, so he can't tank it too bad. Maybe i'm not picking up on things very well. ;)

[raiders3604]

Gallagher is supposed to get a start on Friday I believe. Lou is skipping Z to set him up for opening day. Z will pitch a couple innings in the minor league camp.

I was at the game and just wanted to add that Gallagher was hurried in warm-ups. Dempster was on a pitch count and Gallagher didn't get that many pitches in the pen. Gallagher has been a starter his entire career and hasn't adjusted to coming out of the pen. His velocity and pitches looked good just couldn't find the plate.

[clarence]

I was at the game and just wanted to add that Gallagher was hurried in warm-ups. Dempster was on a pitch count and Gallagher didn't get that many pitches in the pen. Gallagher has been a starter his entire career and hasn't adjusted to coming out of the pen. His velocity and pitches looked good just couldn't find the plate.

Thanks for the update. Personally, I want the kid, but at this pace he is going to be washed up by the time a deal gets done.

[umfan83]

I hear what you are saying, but I doubt this is the case at all. That kind of mindset would set the kid up for failure in general. What happens when the Cubbies reach the WS and are facing the Yanks or Sox? Duck and run?

The Cubs will never reach the World Series

[blueberryale77]

Could have been. I've heard radio shows talking about Cedeno possibly tanking it this spring because he doesn't want to go to the O's. Which doesn't make sense because I believe he's out of options, so he can't tank it too bad. Maybe i'm not picking up on things very well. ;)

That would be idiotic. Does he think he's going to get a chance to start on a winning team? Seriously, the dude needs to find his way to a bad team in order to revive his career after how he screwed up his rookie season. If there is even a grain of truth to that I certainly hope the O's scouts are taking it into consideration. I wouldn't give an allegation like that a second thought unless it were at least the second or third thing I'd heard about a player that made me wonder if it could be true (which it is with Cedeno). That would make him 0-for-2 on the Trembley cliches ("major league players who are major league people" and "guys who want to be here").

By the way, Cubs people, what's up with Cedeno's hamstring? Someone mentioned he hurt it a couple of days ago. Is he back in the lineup?

[Harry Carry]

That would be idiotic. Does he think he's going to get a chance to start on a winning team? Seriously, the dude needs to find his way to a bad team in order to revive his career after how he screwed up his rookie season. If there is even a grain of truth to that I certainly hope the O's scouts are taking it into consideration. I wouldn't give an allegation like that a second thought unless it were at least the second or third thing I'd heard about a player that made me wonder if it could be true (which it is with Cedeno). That would make him 0-for-2 on the Trembley cliches ("major league players who are major league people" and "guys who want to be here").

By the way, Cubs people, what's up with Cedeno's hamstring? Someone mentioned he hurt it a couple of days ago. Is he back in the lineup?

Yes he played yesterday and went 3for3 with a single, double and a game tying triple in the 9 inning.

[Frobby]

Do you like Ronny Cedeno as a deep middle infield sleeper on the chance that he gets traded to Baltimore? - Dave

Definitely. Cedeno with 550 at-bats could even have mixed league value. If he played that much he could certainly go .275-15-65-65-10. Cedeno has a lot going for him—about a full season's worth of at-bats at Triple-A with an OPS over .900, and a year under his belt taking his big-league lumps in '06.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/fantasy-mailbag-kemp-braun-cedeno-parra/

[JohnD]

Who??????????

[Frobby]

Who??????????

Do you think I know? :p If the Hardball Times takes him seriously enough to print it, then I take it seriously enough to post it. ;)

[BillySmith]

He's the MLBTraderumors.com guy. All of 24 yo.

[Number5]

He's the MLBTraderumors.com guy. All of 24 yo.

...and a Cub fan.

[Fairfax Bird]

...and a Cub fan.

That is the key, he is partial to the Cubbies and that comes through clearly.

[wildcard]

Alot happened today.

1) Dempster solidified his spot in the rotation with 5 scoreless innings. It Zambrano, Lilley, Dempster, Hill and Leiber with Marshall as the long man.

2) This means the Cubs have to trade Marquis by Opening day. There is no place for him. They will probably have to eat some salary.

3) Loewen probably dropped in the rotation if he stays in it. He may be the fifth starter which will give him more rest between starts when there is a day off.

It looks like the cards are all played. There is no reason to wait any longer. If the trade is to happen, now is the time. I'd think in the next four days. I have never predicted the time for Roberts trade before but it just feels like push has come to shove. If it does not happen by Monday it seems like time may be passing it by.