Gordon Beckham Write-Up

[Stotle]

I figured I'd throw Camden Depot's hat into the ring (shameless plug alert). Our write-up (http://camdendepot.blogspot.com) on Beckham is the first of six covering potential first round picks for Baltimore. I hope to have two more posts (for a total of 8) covering round 2-3 and 4-5. Tomorrow I will try to have Posey and Smoak up. Hope you enjoy the read!

[crawdad]

I figured I'd throw Camden Depot's hat into the ring (shameless plug alert). Our write-up (http://camdendepot.blogspot.com) on Beckham is the first of six covering potential first round picks for Baltimore. I hope to have two more posts (for a total of 8) covering round 2-3 and 4-5. Tomorrow I will try to have Posey and Smoak up. Hope you enjoy the read!

Maybe you are on over here . . .

What makes the hitch OK for the college pitching, but not the pros?

Is it because:
A) a lighter bat gives you more time to swing
B) a greater "sweet spot" allows you to hit the ball well even if mistimed
C) something else

[Stotle]

Maybe you are on over here . . .

What makes the hitch OK for the college pitching, but not the pros?

Is it because:
A) a lighter bat gives you more time to swing
B) a greater "sweet spot" allows you to hit the ball well even if mistimed
C) something else

Sorry, just responded. Here is what I wrote:

Yeah, that's basically it. The easiest way to conceptualize it is "the shorter your swing, the longer you can wait to start it and the faster you can get the bat to the ball". This is more important at higher levels because 1) pitching tends to be faster and the bats are heavier, 2) pitching is located more effectively making bat control and pitch ID more important (the extra split second you can wait to swing makes a huge difference in differentiating between a fastball and a slider, for example), and 3) the breaking stuff is better (this ties into #2 -- if you have to start your swing prior to properly IDing the pitch you'll have a much harder time squaring up on the ball when it breaks).

Shorter version -- what you said above.

[crawdad]

Yeah, I wanted to be sure. We often talk short-hand about this or that being a bad thing and we rarely mention why it is.

Thanks.

[markpolis]

I figured I'd throw Camden Depot's hat into the ring (shameless plug alert). Our write-up (http://camdendepot.blogspot.com) on Beckham is the first of six covering potential first round picks for Baltimore. I hope to have two more posts (for a total of 8) covering round 2-3 and 4-5. Tomorrow I will try to have Posey and Smoak up. Hope you enjoy the read!

Great stuff Stotle. May I suggest you put a video clip of Beckham's swing with your article. His swing and the perceived holes in it seem to be the hot topic with him and whether he is worthy of the #4 pick.

Here's a pretty good clip of Beckham fielding and hitting from youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqc3g873RRU

He looks very smooth on defense. He does have a big loop in his swing that will need to be corrected for him to be successful at the next level.

[crawdad]

Great stuff Stotle. May I suggest you put a video clip of Beckham's swing with your article. His swing and the perceived holes in it seem to be the hot topic with him and whether he is worthy of the #4 pick.

Here's a pretty good clip of Beckham fielding and hitting from youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqc3g873RRU

He looks very smooth on defense. He does have a big loop in his swing that will need to be corrected for him to be successful at the next level.

I actually already have that linked in the comments section. He does look smooth on defense.

[Stotle]

Great stuff Stotle. May I suggest you put a video clip of Beckham's swing with your article. His swing and the perceived holes in it seem to be the hot topic with him and whether he is worthy of the #4 pick.

Here's a pretty good clip of Beckham fielding and hitting from youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqc3g873RRU

He looks very smooth on defense. He does have a big loop in his swing that will need to be corrected for him to be successful at the next level.

Sorry to disappoint -- I don't think I'll have time to transfer the game film to my computer this week. Perhaps when NoVoA posts his write-up he'll let us use his video on our site, as well.

[crawdad]

I think his performance on the Cape pushed him up higher. I think before then he was listed as a fringe first rounder. I'm not sure though.

[Stotle]

Interesting write-up...

One thing I noticed is that you state going into this season, he was not considered a top 15 pick... this link below shows Baseball America did.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/colum...ark&id=3358555

Baseball America named Beckham the 12th-best pro prospect for the 2008 amateur draft before the season started.

The summation was intersting… and it is a resaonble question to ask if the hitch in his swing will allow him to be successful with a wooden bat…. But I think the fact that he dominated the Cape Cod league should help address that question, even if it was only against college pitching.

I also like Beckham's own quote when asked about using a wooden bat:

College Baseball Prospects: How tough was it to adjust to the wood bats being used in Cape Cod this summer? Did you have to change your approach at all?

Gordon Beckham: I actually enjoy wood bats more than metal. I realized there is a lot less room for error and I guess tried to tighten up my swing. I tried to do less, and by doing so I did more.

Hmmm. As of February 11, 2008 Baseball America's Plus Scouting Service ranked G-Bex the 16th best college player, putting him in the 20-30 range overall.

http://prospectsplus.baseballamerica.com/rankings/?rank=college&year=2008

Your link isn't working for me, but I am going to assume that ESPN was not using the right rankings. Not that any of us would be surprised that ESPN messed up in doing, or simply did not do, their homework ;)

Regarding the Cape, it's definitely a cause for optimism. I don't remember if I pointed this out in the write-up or not (I tried not to drag on too long) but I don't see him running into trouble until the high minors. Against A-ball pitching, he'll still see enough mistakes and unrefined stuff to mash. I think when he runs into pitching that can consistently change speeds and command the strike zone, the fact that he needs to start his swing a little early could catch up with him.

I read that interview as well -- I love his confidence and humility. Seems like a great kid and a hard worker. I still stand behind the stance that I don't necessarily think he is worth all the risk at #4, but I truly hope he has a successful career. He is a lot of fun to watch.

[Stotle]

For non-scouting service members, here is the list up to Beckham:

1. Pedro Alvarez 3b Jr. L-R 6-2 225 Vanderbilt
2. Brian Matusz lhp Jr. L-L 6-4 193 San Diego
3. Aaron Crow rhp Jr. R-R 6-2 195 Missouri
4. Justin Smoak 1b Jr. B-L 6-4 215 South Carolina
5. Yonder Alonso 1b Jr. L-L 6-2 215 Miami
6. Christian Friedrich lhp Jr. R-L 6-3 208 Eastern Kentucky
7. Brett Hunter rhp Jr. R-R 6-4 215 Pepperdine
8. Buster Posey c Jr. R-R 6-2 200 Florida State
9. Ryan Perry rhp Jr. R-R 6-4 200 Arizona
10. Shooter Hunt rhp Jr. R-R 6-3 200 Tulane
11. Jacob Thompson rhp Jr. R-R 6-6 215 Virginia
12. Dennis Raben of Jr. L-L 6-3 220 Miami
13. Luke Burnett rhp Jr. R-R 6-8 260 Louisiana Tech
14. Tanner Scheppers rhp Jr. R-R 6-4 200 Fresno State
15. Cody Satterwhite rhp Jr. R-R 6-4 205 Mississippi
16. Gordon Beckham ss Jr. R-R 6-0 181 Georgia

[Greg Pappas]

I figured I'd throw Camden Depot's hat into the ring (shameless plug alert). Our write-up (http://camdendepot.blogspot.com) on Beckham is the first of six covering potential first round picks for Baltimore. I hope to have two more posts (for a total of 8) covering round 2-3 and 4-5. Tomorrow I will try to have Posey and Smoak up. Hope you enjoy the read!

Shameless plug alert... hmmmmmm, I like that. May I borrow that line? :D

As usual, interesting read. I love these sort of analysis, as it points out potential issues from a true mechanics viewpoint. Well done. I don't know enough about these things to offer an opinion, so... we'll see. :)

[markpolis]

Shameless plug alert... hmmmmmm, I like that. May I borrow that line? :D

As usual, interesting read. I love these sort of analysis, as it points out potential issues from a true mechanics viewpoint. Well done. I don't know enough about these things to offer an opinion, so... we'll see. :)

I think it's an easy correctable flaw. Beckham alluded to it himself in making the transition to the wooden bat for the Cape Cod league. Simply by lowering his hands during his set up will help alleviate some of his hitch and shorten his swing.

[crawdad]

I think it's an easy correctable flaw. Beckham alluded to it himself in making the transition to the wooden bat for the Cape Cod league. Simply by lowering his hands during his set up will help alleviate some of his hitch and shorten his swing.

I agree that it is a correctable flaw, but I wonder how much the correction will hurt his other abilities. Stotle has mentioned it before, but I wonder how Todd Frazier relates here. He had a similar issue. I don't know if he corrected it or not, but there seems to be a significant drop in production from what I would have expected.

[Stotle]

I think it's an easy correctable flaw. Beckham alluded to it himself in making the transition to the wooden bat for the Cape Cod league. Simply by lowering his hands during his set up will help alleviate some of his hitch and shorten his swing.

Eh, the issue is his elbow and leaving his hands back as his body moves forward, creating space between his hands and body. It is certainly correctible, but how "easy" it will be remains to be seen. Beckham has gotten very comfortable with his swing and his approach; it will take a fair amount of work to overhaul the first half (load through the swing). He seems like the type of player who will put in the work, but I'm not sure we can just write it off as a non-issue.

[crawdad]

Eh, the issue is his elbow and leaving his hands back as his body moves forward, creating space between his hands and body. It is certainly correctible, but how "easy" it will be remains to be seen. Beckham has gotten very comfortable with his swing and his approach; it will take a fair amount of work to overhaul the first half (load through the swing). He seems like the type of player who will put in the work, but I'm not sure we can just write it off as a non-issue.

Do you know if Frazier changed his mechanics?

[66-70-83-??]

Sorry, just responded. Here is what I wrote:

Yeah, that's basically it. The easiest way to conceptualize it is "the shorter your swing, the longer you can wait to start it and the faster you can get the bat to the ball". This is more important at higher levels because 1) pitching tends to be faster and the bats are heavier, 2) pitching is located more effectively making bat control and pitch ID more important (the extra split second you can wait to swing makes a huge difference in differentiating between a fastball and a slider, for example), and 3) the breaking stuff is better (this ties into #2 -- if you have to start your swing prior to properly IDing the pitch you'll have a much harder time squaring up on the ball when it breaks).

Shorter version -- what you said above.

That is true, but there have been enough successful major league hitters despite a hitch that it isn't necessarily a fatal flaw. For some it is part of their timing mechanism.

Ted Williams, Frank Robinson, Barry Bonds are just a few great hitters who had a hitch in their swing.

[Stotle]

I agree that it is a correctable flaw, but I wonder how much the correction will hurt his other abilities. Stotle has mentioned it before, but I wonder how Todd Frazier relates here. He had a similar issue. I don't know if he corrected it or not, but there seems to be a significant drop in production from what I would have expected.

Yeah, similar "issue", though the flaw was a little different. Ultimately, it comes down to what some scouts refer to as a "metal bat swing".

Frazier hit well in Rookie ball and LoA last year. He started out well against LoA this year before being promoted. He has not looked great in his first 167 games .258/.342/.548, 17 SO/8 BB. For a supplemental round pick, and 22 year old accomplished college hitter (holds various big east and rutgers records on top of being considered for the Golden Spikes and receiving All-American honors) it's a bit troubling...

Todd Frazier was not as advanced a hitter, so I'd expect G-Bex to last a little longer, but I still see him hitting a wall around AA/AAA.

[Stotle]

That is true, but there have been enough successful major league hitters despite a hitch that it isn't necessarily a fatal flaw. For some it is part of their timing mechanism.

Ted Williams, Frank Robinson, Barry Bonds are just a few great hitters who had a hitch in their swing.

Yeah, if you read my write-up it states that baseball is littered with questionable mechanics getting results. It really doesn't speak to whether or not you just ignore the flaws when you have a #4 pick.

In the game I scouted, G-Bex was 3-4 with 2 HR and a single. Great day. It was apparent, however, that his hitch has to potential to be a problem. On his single, while facing an inferior pitcher (mid- to high-80s FB, so-so CB) he was fooled on a CB. He is strong enough that the metal bat allowed him to hit a pretty hard ball up the middle, but a wood bat likely would have broken and resulted in a groundout. More likely, the CB would have been better and there would have been a large enough speed difference that G-Bex would have missed the pitch completely (he was way out in front when there was really no cause to be).

His actual ground out has against the starter, Peavey, who threw in the low 90s with his 4-seam and mid- to high-80s with his 2-seam (sinking). He grooved a 3-0 FB in the first AB -- HR. He hung a slider in the second AB -- HR. He came inside with a 4-seam then threw the 2-seam low and out. It wasn't a great pitch, but G-Bex's swing was a little premature; the timing was off and he didn't square up (my guess is because he didn't ID the 2-seam soon enough) -- weak grounder to 2b.

Again, as I acknowledged in the write-up, it's possible he succeeds despite these flaws, but they are already manifesting poor results in certain situations. Just to risky a pick for my taste at #4.

[Stotle]

Do you know if Frazier changed his mechanics?

I don't. I haven't seen any HiA Sarasota Reds ball yet this year. I'd like to catch a game or two to check out Frazier and Valaika, but I doubt I'll get down there and MiLB TV usually doesn't have the best camera angles (and usually doesn't show a ton of HiA stuff).

[crawdad]

I don't. I haven't seen any HiA Sarasota Reds ball yet this year. I'd like to catch a game or two to check out Frazier and Valaika, but I doubt I'll get down there and MiLB TV usually doesn't have the best camera angles (and usually doesn't show a ton of HiA stuff).

Ask and ye shall receive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSVoDRtdjyc

[66-70-83-??]

Yeah, if you read my write-up it states that baseball is littered with questionable mechanics getting results. It really doesn't speak to whether or not you just ignore the flaws when you have a #4 pick.

In the game I scouted, G-Bex was 3-4 with 2 HR and a single. Great day. It was apparent, however, that his hitch has to potential to be a problem. On his single, while facing an inferior pitcher (mid- to high-80s FB, so-so CB) he was fooled on a CB. He is strong enough that the metal bat allowed him to hit a pretty hard ball up the middle, but a wood bat likely would have broken and resulted in a groundout. More likely, the CB would have been better and there would have been a large enough speed difference that G-Bex would have missed the pitch completely (he was way out in front when there was really no cause to be).

His actual ground out has against the starter, Peavey, who threw in the low 90s with his 4-seam and mid- to high-80s with his 2-seam (sinking). He grooved a 3-0 FB in the first AB -- HR. He hung a slider in the second AB -- HR. He came inside with a 4-seam then threw the 2-seam low and out. It wasn't a great pitch, but G-Bex's swing was a little premature; the timing was off and he didn't square up (my guess is because he didn't ID the 2-seam soon enough) -- weak grounder to 2b.

Again, as I acknowledged in the write-up, it's possible he succeeds despite these flaws, but they are already manifesting poor results in certain situations. Just to risky a pick for my taste at #4.

It is tough to judge these kids.

They are still learning the game. And it is a very tough game.

It is hard to project who will learn and develop, who will stagnate or even regress.

I am glad it isn't my call (#4). :p

[Stotle]

It is tough to judge these kids.

They are still learning the game. And it is a very tough game.

It is hard to project who will learn and develop, who will stagnate or even regress.

I am glad it isn't my call (#4). :p

Agreed on all counts.

[Stotle]

Ask and ye shall receive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSVoDRtdjyc

His hands still look like they are too far from his body as he starts his swing. Now please realize I don't have frame-by-frame on youtube -- i was hitting pause really fast.

If you pause at 0:05, you can see his body moving forward and his hands behind and out from the ideal load position. His bat is going to take a longer path as a result. Here is a picture of Beckham -- the similarities are pretty impressive!

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper871/stills/5vb15nzo.jpg

Wow. I just put them side by side on the screen and they are very similar. Frazier is a little more out in front with his body, making his swing a little more problematic. I wonder if he is cheating a little more now that he's using wood bats? That might be a stretch.

Anyway, to answer your question I still see a long swing with Frazier and think his SO numbers will continue at HiA unless he fixes it. Noting, of course, the video is Frazier earlier in the season at LoA. ;)

[LookinUp]

That is true, but there have been enough successful major league hitters despite a hitch that it isn't necessarily a fatal flaw. For some it is part of their timing mechanism.

Ted Williams, Frank Robinson, Barry Bonds are just a few great hitters who had a hitch in their swing.

I'm curious what some people more knowledgeable than me think about Bonds' swing. To me, he has a clear load, but not a clear hitch. In fact, I think he's the quickest/shortest to the ball that I've ever seen. Granted, some of that appears to be *cough* chemically induced.

[markpolis]

It is tough to judge these kids.

They are still learning the game. And it is a very tough game.

It is hard to project who will learn and develop, who will stagnate or even regress.

I am glad it isn't my call (#4). :p

Agreed. That's why it's so important to see progress year after year. I like the fact Beckham knows he needs to make adjustments, he did so in Cape Cod and had success and continues to succeed this year. That's one of the most impressive things with Posey. Not only did he switch positions, but he did it seamlessly and continued to improve at the plate.

That's one of my biggest question marks with Smoak. He struggled with Team USA and took quite a bit of time to straighten things out. He seems to have answered those question marks by rebounding strongly later in the year, but it did take him quite a long time to bounce back.

You don't want to take kids who have already reached their peak. Another reason why (IMO) it is easier to gauge future success with college players as opposed to high school players.

[NoVaO]

Eh, the issue is his elbow and leaving his hands back as his body moves forward, creating space between his hands and body. It is certainly correctible, but how "easy" it will be remains to be seen. Beckham has gotten very comfortable with his swing and his approach; it will take a fair amount of work to overhaul the first half (load through the swing). He seems like the type of player who will put in the work, but I'm not sure we can just write it off as a non-issue.

This sounds right. His swing has some length to it. I managed to get the Youtube video to my computer so I could see it frame-by-frame and he also opens his hips a tad earlyish (at least in this one swing) and gets his hands a little too far out in front.

Fraizer has a long swing but the strides into foot plant are very different. I actually think the actions Gordon has mechanically looks like Alex Rodriguez, with that high leg kick and quick plant.

The difference is that A-Rod keeps the bat closer to his body and is better at keeping his hands back and letting the hands and hips turn together. Beckham is also much "taller" than A-Rod, which isn't as helpful in terms of balance and weight shifting into foot plant.

I'm actually going to hold off on the G. Beckham article until Sunday or Monday. I'm going to do Tim Beckham first, who's swing I'm not all that crazy about after getting a better look at it.