No more excuses, it's time for Williams to go [Archive]

Tony-OH

06-10-2008, 03:07 PM

Mackus

06-10-2008, 04:02 PM

Still I think suggesting the game has passed Gary by is ridiculous. The team is gonna suck this year, and he's gotta take the hit for that, but I think he can rebuild it faster than anyone else we'd bring in.

I'm not giving him a pass for the sins he's committed since the championship (well moreso since the Gilchrist/McCray/Jones class, up until that class blew up things were fine). He's gotta be accountable for the problems with the team, and I think he is. But I still strongly feel that he's the best guy for getting Maryland back to a Final 4. Its just not gonna be in the next 2 years.

beaner

06-10-2008, 04:04 PM

Dear Maryland,
Please get rid of Gary Williams ASAP.

Sincerely,
Alumni and Fans of the University of North Carolina Basketball program

BaltimoreTerp

06-10-2008, 05:43 PM

Dear Maryland,
Please get rid of Gary Williams ASAP.

Sincerely,
Alumni and Fans of the University of North Carolina Basketball program

I bet you'll have ten other teams signing that letter.

Maybe more like 300+.

beaner

06-10-2008, 05:54 PM

I bet you'll have ten other teams signing that letter.

Maybe more like 300+.

No doubt the rest of the ACC will sign that letter. If the only coach that has consistently challenged Carolina and Duke the past 15 years is on the hot seat, I'd hate to see what happens to truly unsuccesful coaches.

This is still the same Gary Williams that led two teams to the Final Four this decade, right? How many teams have been to two Final Fours this decade? And the same guy who is the only coach besides Roy Williams and Coach K to win the ACC tournament the past 12 years, right? I honestly can't believe some of the Maryland fans on the board would want this.

Eight

06-10-2008, 07:16 PM

Mackus

06-10-2008, 08:19 PM

Gary Williams should not leave now. He has earned the right to have another season to turn this around. If this season is as bad as his detractors claim it will be - and due to the collapse of a once promising '08 recruiting class it may well be - then it will likely be time for him to step down.

That said, when he does step down, Carolina and Duke fans will be wise to hold off on throwing their parades for a bit. Maryland will be a very attractive job and will attract a very good coach.I think its absurd to base his job on the results of this season. At least depending on what your expectations are.

An NCAA trip this year would be worthy of a Coach of the Year award. An NIT trip would have to be considered a pretty solid job by Gary, given the talent on the team.

He's gotta take the hit for the expected poor performance next year and the NIT trip last year (largely due to a poor roster constructed). But if you're gonna be crazy enough to fire him if next year isn't a good season, might as well just do it now, because next year isn't going to be a good season. They're gonna stink.

Gary gets more time than that. This will be the first year where we are very bad. The three NIT years we were probably no more than a win or two away from an NCAA bid. Not where we should be by any means, but still not a disaster. Next year we won't be that close, but people shouldn't be expecting us to be.

inmn

06-10-2008, 08:48 PM

Gary Williams should not leave now. He has earned the right to have another season to turn this around. If this season is as bad as his detractors claim it will be - and due to the collapse of a once promising '08 recruiting class it may well be - then it will likely be time for him to step down.

That said, when he does step down, Carolina and Duke fans will be wise to hold off on throwing their parades for a bit. Maryland will be a very attractive job and will attract a very good coach.

Good post, this would not be the opportune time to make a change anyway.
I would rather see GW go out on top but it doesn't often end that way. They are making inroads with younger recruits than in the past which will hopefully pay dividends in the next few years but I am afraid the next 2-3 years are going to be difficult. There is no excuse for Md basketball to miss the NCAA's 5 of 6 years-which is likely. As pointed out by another poster Md's other sports within the athletic department continue to excel while men's basketball is going the other way. And it's not just on the court, the administrative problems are telling.

My biggest concern if GW goes is that you end up with a coach who can recruit but can't coach (Wade)-which is more frustrating than a great coach that can't recruit or doesn't care to. Don't forget even Wade beat Duke and UNC one year.

GW has been a wonderful coach over the years but his record is eerily the same as Lefty's. Lefty built Md basketball not Gary-he has simply continued the legacy. Md will be a strong if not stronger program when GW goes as it is one of the top jobs in the game.

Eight

06-10-2008, 08:50 PM

I think its absurd to base his job on the results of this season. At least depending on what your expectations are.

An NCAA trip this year would be worthy of a Coach of the Year award. An NIT trip would have to be considered a pretty solid job by Gary, given the talent on the team.

He's gotta take the hit for the expected poor performance next year and the NIT trip last year (largely due to a poor roster constructed). But if you're gonna be crazy enough to fire him if next year isn't a good season, might as well just do it now, because next year isn't going to be a good season. They're gonna stink.

Gary gets more time than that. This will be the first year where we are very bad. The three NIT years we were probably no more than a win or two away from an NCAA bid. Not where we should be by any means, but still not a disaster. Next year we won't be that close, but people shouldn't be expecting us to be.

If you're going to give him a pass on next year, are you going to give him a pass on '09-'10 as well? That will be the same roster with a bit more experience. Greivis may well be gone, especially if this coming season is a disaster. We will likely add one or two recruits, but none of them are likely to be instant impact players.

I am a huge Gary fan. I think he's been dealt a bad hand with how the '08 class has gone down with Gilchrist, Maze, Evans, Jennings, et al, but in the end, the roster construction and the team's performance rests at the feet of the head coach. The '05-'07 classes were recruited by Gary Williams, and if he can't win with them next year, after the recent performances, I hope he will retire for the good of the program. I haven't given up on him yet, but another bad year and I don't see where my optimism about his remaining years will come from.

Mackus

06-10-2008, 08:53 PM

If you're going to give him a pass on next year, are you going to give him a pass on '09-'10 as well? That will be the same roster with a bit more experience. Greivis may well be gone, especially if this coming season is a disaster. We will likely add one or two recruits, but none of them are likely to be instant impact players.

I am a huge Gary fan. I think he's been dealt a bad hand with how the '08 class has gone down with Gilchrist, Maze, Evans, Jennings, et al, but in the end, the roster construction and the team's performance rests at the feet of the head coach. The '05-'07 classes were recruited by Gary Williams, and if he can't win with them next year, after the recent performances, I hope he will retire for the good of the program. I haven't given up on him yet, but another bad year and I don't see where my optimism about his remaining years will come from.
If its up to me he'd have a lifetime pass. I wouldn't be the guy to tell a legend to leave. That's not the way its done in college basketball. I certainly think he'd leave if things were getting to the point where they are irreparable, and if we miss the tourney both of the next two years, I'd expect to see him decide to hang them up.

He's gotta sign a good class for next year though to get an infusion of talent in here. Even if that means taking one or two one-and-dones.

ccbird

06-10-2008, 08:56 PM

I think its absurd to base his job on the results of this season. At least depending on what your expectations are.

An NCAA trip this year would be worthy of a Coach of the Year award. An NIT trip would have to be considered a pretty solid job by Gary, given the talent on the team.
He's gotta take the hit for the expected poor performance next year and the NIT trip last year (largely due to a poor roster constructed). But if you're gonna be crazy enough to fire him if next year isn't a good season, might as well just do it now, because next year isn't going to be a good season. They're gonna stink.

Gary gets more time than that. This will be the first year where we are very bad. The three NIT years we were probably no more than a win or two away from an NCAA bid. Not where we should be by any means, but still not a disaster. Next year we won't be that close, but people shouldn't be expecting us to be.

See this is what gets me and this isn't directed at you as much because I know you've acknowledged that Gary is mostly to blame for the state of the program. The expectations are so low that Gary is already being set up to have people praise him if and when we have even a decent season. It bugs me that Gary can't lose with some people no matter what.

I can almost see how this will play out. Gary is a fighter, he doesn't quit and it's by far his best coaching aspect. With that said, I think he has a chance to get this program back where it was 10 years ago as a consistent NCAA tourny team and because of where this program has fallen he will be hailed by some for getting this program back to that level. I just expected and still expect the next step which is getting top talent and the ability to get to the Final Four. If Gary coming off 2001 and 2002 wasn't able to get this program to that level then that he isn't going to be able to do it now.

Truth be known for anyone who wants to see this program take the next step than the sooner Gary leaves the better. He is getting old, he has never recruited well and didn't take advantage of his best chance when he won the NC.Now, 6 years later and a program in the worst shape it's been since 1992, I fail to see how Gary is gonna take this program to the level where it could and should be.

Ruzious

06-10-2008, 10:17 PM

After reading this article in the Sun (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/basketball/mens/bal-sp.terps10jun10,0,5465156.story) about the upcoming woes, this has to be the final nail in Gary Williams coffin.

Yes, Gary took a program from rags to riches but unfortunately, he's returned them to the rags.

I heard a few months ago that Williams never even uses his entire recruiting budget because he barely goes anywhere.

Thanks for the memories Gary, but the game has change and you didn't change fast enough. The Terps will be an embarrassment this up coming year and it's William's shoddy recruiting that's to blame.

I know Gary has his supporters, but I'm sorry, recent actions/results speak louder than history!!

Gary, do what's best for the school and resign.
There's no news in that article. It's just an excuse to kick the man when he's down.

And what does "recent actions/results speak louder than history" even mean? Are you saying that Maryland winning a national championship didn't matter?

He's obviously not going to resign now - with the contract he's got - unless the state of Maryland pays him off. Would you quit a job that pays you 7 figures - quitting on the kids that you recruited and actually got to keep? How would that help the school - when any coach worth anything has a job? You're basically asking for another Wade/Slaughter situation.

Golgo

06-10-2008, 10:34 PM

Tony-OH

06-10-2008, 10:44 PM

There's no news in that article. It's just an excuse to kick the man when he's down.

And what does "recent actions/results speak louder than history" even mean? Are you saying that Maryland winning a national championship didn't matter?

He's obviously not going to resign now - with the contract he's got - unless the state of Maryland pays him off. Would you quit a job that pays you 7 figures - quitting on the kids that you recruited and actually got to keep? How would that help the school - when any coach worth anything has a job? You're basically asking for another Wade/Slaughter situation.

Williams is a lazy recruiter and it's now coming back to bite him hard. Three out of four years in the NIT and we're looking at an even worse team next year and probably the year after. This program is in a shambles and it's ashamed there are so many people blind to it.

Maryland should be an elite program. Maybe not Duke and North Carolina year in and year out, but no way they should be out of the to 25 year in and year out.

People can make excuses all they like. The same people who point to the national championship were the same people who pointed to Billick winning a Super Bowl. Just because you win it all once doesn't give you an unlimted amount of stinkitude.

I have no problem with you supporters. I just happen to think you are sadly wrong, but I'll try not to remind you when the Terps stink it up again and you eventually realize your mistakes... :D

ccbird

06-10-2008, 11:11 PM

Williams is a lazy recruiter and it's now coming back to bite him hard. Three out of four years in the NIT and we're looking at an even worse team next year and probably the year after. This program is in a shambles and it's ashamed there are so many people blind to it.

Maryland should be an elite program. Maybe not Duke and North Carolina year in and year out, but no way they should be out of the to 25 year in and year out.

People can make excuses all they like. The same people who point to the national championship were the same people who pointed to Billick winning a Super Bowl. Just because you win it all once doesn't give you an unlimted amount of stinkitude.

I have no problem with you supporters. I just happen to think you are sadly wrong, but I'll try not to remind you when the Terps stink it up again and you eventually realize your mistakes... :D

Well I disagreed with you on Billick but I mostly agree here. I'm not quite to the point of firing Gary yet but like I said I do think the sooner he goes the better.

I actually see a lot of comparisons between Billick and Gary. They both have abrasive personalities and egos. Both led their teams from the depths to championships and are the best coaches their franchises/teams have ever had. However, they both have done little since their titles and have had one glaring flaw in their duties as a coach, Billick with his offense and Gary with his recruiting. It's weird how so many were ready to can Billick but most everyone wants Gary to stay.

Eight

06-10-2008, 11:27 PM

Eight

06-10-2008, 11:34 PM

Well I disagreed with you on Billick but I mostly agree here. I'm not quite to the point of firing Gary yet but like I said I do think the sooner he goes the better.

I actually see a lot of comparisons between Billick and Gary. They both have abrasive personalities and egos. Both led their teams from the depths to championships and are the best coaches their franchises/teams have ever had. However, they both have done little since their titles and have had one glaring flaw in their duties as a coach, Billick with his offense and Gary with his recruiting. It's weird how so many were ready to can Billick but most everyone wants Gary to stay.

College sports are worlds different than the pros. In the NFL, except for maybe the Cardinals, you know that EVERY team is going to be competitive enough to have a shot at a championship within a relatively small amount of time. In college, even in major conferences, that expectation isn't there for many, many teams. Being in the top ten in the country happens maybe once every 15 years, if that.

Not to mention, Billick's flaw (offense) was compensated by having a good GM get him good defensive players who were coached by an excellent Defensive Coordinator. Gary's flaw (recruiting; and it wasn't a huge flaw before 2004 or so) was mitigated by what he did - excellent coaching as well as getting guys that work with his system.

I don't see the comparison between the two. One is an icon who should be in the Hall of Fame one day. The other is a coach who got a ring but never sustained a consistent level of success over a period of time.

ccbird

06-11-2008, 12:45 AM

College sports are worlds different than the pros. In the NFL, except for maybe the Cardinals, you know that EVERY team is going to be competitive enough to have a shot at a championship within a relatively small amount of time. In college, even in major conferences, that expectation isn't there for many, many teams. Being in the top ten in the country happens maybe once every 15 years, if that.

Not to mention, Billick's flaw (offense) was compensated by having a good GM get him good defensive players who were coached by an excellent Defensive Coordinator. Gary's flaw (recruiting; and it wasn't a huge flaw before 2004 or so) was mitigated by what he did - excellent coaching as well as getting guys that work with his system.

I don't see the comparison between the two. One is an icon who should be in the Hall of Fame one day. The other is a coach who got a ring but never sustained a consistent level of success over a period of time.

See I completely disagree. I don't believe Gary has done a better job overall than Billick in each of their tenures. Like I said it baffles me how much people want to discredit what Billick did and praise what Gary has done. It is simply harder to coach in the NFL.

For one, with the competitve balance it is harder to sustain any kind of dominance or maintain a level of success in the NFL. That makes it much harder for coaches overall and it usually means a shorter shelf life. Billick being here for 10 years is equal to a much longer run in basketball. It is much easier to get to the top and maintain that level of dominance in college basketball especially when you have the advantages that Gary has had of being in the premier conference, with a state of the art complex and a NC banner. That gives you a built in advantage and prestige where you shouldn't have to rebuild but reload with top recruits. IN football, with a salary cap you are going to have to rebuild at some point.

You say Ozzie gave Billick his talent and players which is true but Gary is solely responsible for his talent. So, while you may give Gary more credit for his NC run than Billick and his SB run you also have to give Gary most of the blame for his poor roster management in recent years where Billick isn't completely responsible for what he has to work with. I've always been an advocate that Billick never had a quality QB to work with which in some ways wasn't his fault.

I mean yes basketball and football are pretty different. Beyond the obvious tihings,football is much more of a team game and there is much more credit that can be passed around in pro football with assistant coaches and Gm's. But man to man on the things you can compare or contrast I do see some parallels between the two coaches and think there career paths have a bunch of similarities.

Eight

06-11-2008, 01:49 AM

See I completely disagree. I don't believe Gary has done a better job overall than Billick in each of their tenures. Like I said it baffles me how much people want to discredit what Billick did and praise what Gary has done. It is simply harder to coach in the NFL.

For one, with the competitve balance it is harder to sustain any kind of dominance or maintain a level of success in the NFL. That makes it much harder for coaches overall and it usually means a shorter shelf life. Billick being here for 10 years is equal to a much longer run in basketball. It is much easier to get to the top and maintain that level of dominance in college basketball especially when you have the advantages that Gary has had of being in the premier conference, with a state of the art complex and a NC banner. That gives you a built in advantage and prestige where you shouldn't have to rebuild but reload with top recruits. IN football, with a salary cap you are going to have to rebuild at some point.

I mean yes basketball and football are pretty different. Beyond the obvious tihings,football is much more of a team game and there is much more credit that can be passed around in pro football with assistant coaches and Gm's. But man to man on the things you can compare or contrast I do see some parallels between the two coaches and think there career paths have a bunch of similarities.

But that's the point. Gary didn't inherit a state of the art facility and a National Championship. He inherited sanctions and Cole Field House which could best be described as venerable. I agree Gary gets the blame for poor roster management in recent years. But the larger point is that he gets credit where Billick doesn't for building all those Sweet Sixteen teams, all those teams that finished top 10 in the polls, the two Final Four teams. It's easy to say teams can just reload in college hoops, but that's not the case outside of UNC and Duke.

As you say, NFL coaches do last a shorter time, but from my vantage point, that's a symptom of their roles. They have less responsibility than a college coach making them more replaceable. They have less authority in choosing personnel and delegate more of their responsibility to assistants. Not that that doesn't happen in college hoops, but the head coach is much more intimately involved in the various facets of the game.

I just can't buy that they're on equal footing. During his tenure here, Gary was one of the ten best coaches in the country. Super Bowl or not, I won't say the same for Billick.

Ruzious

06-11-2008, 09:19 AM

Williams is a lazy recruiter and it's now coming back to bite him hard. Three out of four years in the NIT and we're looking at an even worse team next year and probably the year after. This program is in a shambles and it's ashamed there are so many people blind to it.

Maryland should be an elite program. Maybe not Duke and North Carolina year in and year out, but no way they should be out of the to 25 year in and year out.

People can make excuses all they like. The same people who point to the national championship were the same people who pointed to Billick winning a Super Bowl. Just because you win it all once doesn't give you an unlimted amount of stinkitude.

I have no problem with you supporters. I just happen to think you are sadly wrong, but I'll try not to remind you when the Terps stink it up again and you eventually realize your mistakes... :D
That's fair. I don't give Billick full credit for that SB, because he was an offensive coach, and the offense on that team was probably the worst of any SB championship in history. I'm not sure how much he had to do with their defense and special teams. Besides, Billick bashing is a lot more fun than Gary bashing. :D

Mackus

06-11-2008, 09:45 AM

This team is way more talented than the Sr year Rhoads, Hipp, Simpkins, and Jr year Booth team… way more talented than the Sarunus/Elliott squad…. I think they are fairly comparable to the Sr year Blake / Nicholas team. I disagree with all of that. Completely. Rhoades and Booth were both better players than our best player (Greivis) and we can't match the rest of the talent that those teams had.

Those teams were almost all Sweet 16 type teams. Or at the very least NCAA tournament teams.

This team is not.

DuffMan

06-11-2008, 09:47 AM

Tony,

I respect you, and for the most part usually agree with you… but this is your worst idea since saying the O's should not trade Rodrigo and Julio for Beltran.

We need to see what happens in the next month… does Mosley get his qualifying score in his 3rd attempt?

Kim appears to be coming.. Does that become 100% official?

Does the team sign a player like Darden, someone athletic that can shot-block, and rebound off the bench, to help the post-rotation?

Regardless, I like the guys coming back.. And I scoff at the notion that this is the least talented Terp of Gary's tenure…

This team is way more talented than the Sr year Rhoads, Hipp, Simpkins, and Jr year Booth team… way more talented than the Sarunus/Elliott squad…. I think they are fairly comparable to the Sr year Blake / Nicholas team.

I know Gary likes what he has coming back as well… As big a Gary fan as I am… I do think this team is pretty good, and I expect a successful season where they Dance.

If they do not, I would not be surprised to see Gary step down…

How about letting the season play-out?

I'm pretty sure those teams you just mentioned went to the NCAA tournament. This team will be lucky to make the NIT.

Ruzious

06-11-2008, 10:39 AM

Just throwing this out there, but - Is there any chance Gilchrist ends up staying? Assuming the NCAA doesn't honor his request for eligibility next season if he transfers, it just doesn't make sense for him to transfer. And from what I've heard, the NCAA is very unlikely to grant his request. Dude has changed his mind so many times - maybe he changes it again and decides to make the sensible choice - going to MD. Does that make sense, or am I not understanding the strange situation?

Mackus

06-11-2008, 10:46 AM

Mackus

06-11-2008, 10:52 AM

Stoner, no way is this a top-15 team even with Mosley, Kim, and Darden.

And no way is this team more talented than any of the 3 teams you mentioned. Those teams were all legit NCAA teams. This team is not. It'd take a minor miracle to make the tournament. We've only got one impact player. Everybody else is a role player at best. I'd be surprised if anyone on the team other than Vasquez gets any votes for an All-ACC team this year. I think Vasquez will be the only guy considered in the top 20 or so players in the ACC.

Mackus

06-11-2008, 11:50 AM

I don't think Holden would have the physical ability to handle Burney… Blake is better than Hayes, but comparable… Vasquez does more things well than Nicholas…Up to here you had an argument, but here is where it falls apart.

Nicholas and Blake were both comparable to Vasquez. I think all three of them (Jr year Vasquez) will have about the same impact. Probably 2nd team All-ACC. But Hayes is no where near as good as the other three, so there is a huge gap between Nicholas and Blake and Vasquez and Hayes.

And I'd be very surprised if Burney's soph year, after barely playing his freshamn year, was better than Holden's Sr year. Holden had been a big part of back-to-back Final 4 teams.

inmn

06-11-2008, 12:04 PM

CR,

You are really straining your credibility with these wild comparisions.
I won't even go through them but to compare Hayes and Milbourne to Sarunas and Profit-who both had pro careers and in the former a very good one....the 95-96 team with 8 quality recruits cannot even be compared!!

They return about 2ppg and 2 rebounds per game at the 4 and 5 with no help coming in. Darden is a top 250 6'7" shot blocker-how often do these guys contribute-I can remember one in 40 years of watching the ACC (D Lewis). Kim is 170 pounds!! Your analysis even contradicts Gary's assessment at the end of the year-they were the slowest and weakest in the ACC. Next year they are still slow and even weaker. There is no size, shot blockers or rebounders other than Burney. Milbourne can't play the 4 and Bowie can't handle well enough for GW to play him at the 1. I am not sure they are as bad talent wise as the 2-3 year post Wade teams, but you have no credibility if you think this is a sweet 16 team after 3/4 NIT's, losing your key inside players with no replacements.

Mackus

06-11-2008, 12:28 PM

Junior Hayes vs Senior Blake..

Hayes - As a Soph, he avg 9.9ppg, 4.5 assts to 2.4 turnovers... Did shoot 42.7 from the field... 39.2% from 3... 85% from the line...
Did have 15 games in double figures, including big games against:

Illinois : 18pts, 4 assists, 4 three's
UVA: 15pts, 9 assists, 3 three's
@GaTech: 14pts, 8 assists
NCST: 14pts
@Miami: 14pts, 3 three's

Blake - Great PG, 2 FF's… an assassin as a shooter late in games… As a Senior, he avg 11.5ppg, 7.12 asst to 3.19 turnovers.. Did shoot 41% from the field... 41% from 3, 82% from the line..

Blake as a Senior was better than Hayes as a Soph… but not heads and tails.. And that difference will be even less now, when it is Senior Blake vs Jr Hayes.

Junior Vasquez vs Senior Nicholas

Vasquez - 17ppg, 6.8 assts, 5.7 boards, 43.2% from the field, 30.9% from 3, 78.2% from the line, 4.4 turnovers, 1.4 steals as a Soph… All-ACC…

Nicholas - 17.8ppg, 2.67 assts, 3.8 boards, 44% from the field, 41% from 3, 85% from the line, 2.1 turnovers, 1.2 steals as a Senior.. 2 FF's.. A number of daggers.. All-ACC..

Great year from Drew.. Really a great career… but Vasquez was basically had an equal or better year as a Soph.. And should certainly be better as a Jr.I just can't more completely disagree with both of your conclusions here. Stats can't tell the whole story, especially when comparing different teams who's players had to take on different roles.

Blake was a far better player than Hayes is. Its just a fact. Blake is still playing in the NBA. Hayes has no shot. There is no way any of Hayes' years will ever touch any of Blake's, and certainly not his senior year when he really rounded out his game as a scoring option.

Vasquez and Nicholas is a closer comparison. But I still think Nicholas was better. He wasn't asked to do much his first 3 years, but he really stepped it up his senior year. I think Vasquez can match him as a scorer/slasher, and probably even better at that, but Nicholas laps him as a shooter and in the clutch.

DuffMan

06-11-2008, 12:50 PM

Hayes is going out to Portland this year, and spending a week working Blakes camp, and getting 1 on 1 instruction… everything that physically made Blake a pro - ability to hit an open shot, lead a team, handle the ball, court vision… those are all things Hayes has… we will see if Blake's desire/moxey rubs off on Hayes.

1 week at Blake camp doesn't make him as good as Blake? The part I bolded is something that can't be taught. You either have it or you don't and Hayes doesn't. Hayes hasn't shown me anything that would lead me to believe that he could lead this team and run the offense the way Blake did. I would stop the comparison between these two after mentioning that they can both hit the open shot.

DuffMan

06-11-2008, 02:01 PM

There were plenty of Terp fans during Blake's Soph season that complained about him...

That team got hot, and made the Final Four… but if you remember the St Valentine's Massacre that year, plenty of Terp fans were stating the roster was horrible, and not capable of winning… and that Gary had to go…

You were comparing this coming years roster (which is still up in the air) to other exact years and for your one comparison it was Hayes as what we can expect this fall as a junior to Blake's senior year. But now your talking about his sophmore year. In an earlier post you said this....

You are looking back with revisionist history… you are talking about the players they became, vs the players they were at the time… that is an important distinction.

That being said I don't think you can use Blakes sophomore season as an argument when the intent was to compare his senior year to Hayes upcoming Junior year.

Mackus

06-11-2008, 02:37 PM

Sooooo Blake can build from his Soph year, and ascend to All-time Terp Great, and NBA player… but Hayes can not progress from where he was as a Soph, to be a close approximation of what Blake was? That is nonsense.Something close to that. Blake was an excellent player his Soph year too. He was quite good his freshman year.

I think Hayes can be a good player, but I don't think he has the talent that Blake had. You said there is nothing Blake could do physically that Hayes can't, but I disagree. I think Blake was a better ball handler, better passer, and had better court vision. He was also a better decision maker. He's just a more talented guy, IMO, and I also think he's more driven to make the most out of the talent he has, but that might not be fair.

I certainly think Hayes will improve this year and again before his senior year, I just don't think he'll ever be as good as Blake was, because he's got less to work with.

DuffMan

06-11-2008, 02:39 PM

You are correct.. I am compairing the 2008-9 Terps vs 3 former teams… in this compairsion vs the 2002-3 Terps, I said Blake is better, but not tremendously.

Mackus countered, essientially stating he believed the difference to be vast…..

I showed that Hayes numbers as a Soph, were basically comparable to the numbers Blake produced as a Senior.. Mackus again countered, stating you can not look at stats alone… and I agreed… reminding all that you have to consider the fact that due to circumstance, Hayes was playing out of position at the 2G.

Hayes figures to be a better player as a Junior, than he was as a Soph… and physically, there is nothing that Blake does, that Hayes is not capable of… so the biggest difference between Blake as a Senior, and Hayes as a Soph was mental… which got to my last point, that Blake was not a finished product as a Soph either… point of that compairson being, players progress and mature overtime.

BTW - Here are numbers for Soph Steve Blake…

6.9ppg, 6.9 assts, 3.1 turnovers, 39.9% from the floor, 39% from 3, 71% from the line

& again Soph numbers from Hayes..

9.9ppg, 4.5 assts to 2.4 turnovers... 42.7 from the field... 39.2% from 3... 85% from the line...

Sooooo Blake can build from his Soph year, and ascend to All-time Terp Great, and NBA player… but Hayes can not progress from where he was as a Soph, to be a close approximation of what Blake was? That is nonsense.

If Hayes is such a great PG then why wasn't he playing that position already? If he could really run the offense and create he would be at the point and Vasquez would be the SG. Blake came in off the bat and ran the offense Hayes lost his job as far as being the PG

Eight

06-11-2008, 02:47 PM

Blake's defense alone, along with his toughness, makes him miles and miles ahead of Hayes. That said, I would definitely take Vasquez over Blake or Nicholas, particularly if we're comparing them in their JR year. Nicholas is not even close based on what he did as an underclassman.

I do not expect many wins from next years team, but the backcourt should be deep and talented. Assuming Kim and Mosley are on next season's team, that will give the Terps seven guys who can play the 1-2-3 positions. The team will struggle mightily in the frontcourt, but playing a four guard set or having Milbourne at the four at times can compensate for that to an extent.

I do not think this is close to a Sweet 16 team, but I also do not think it's out of the question that the team is competitive enough to be at least on the bubble if Gary coaches the way he has shown himself capable of coaching in the past.

ccbird

06-11-2008, 03:31 PM

I do think this team might suprise some people this year and stay rather competitive especially if Tucker, Bowie and Burney can build on what they were doing at the end of last year. With that said it is still an uphill climb and right now any comparisons to the '96 team or the '02 are laughable. Those were just more talented teams that each had quality, upperclassmen with a lot of tourney experience.

The Blake- Nicholas vs Vasquez- Hayes comparison isn't even close. Blake was better than both Vas and Hayes and Nicholas was probably better than Vas too though their roles are different. Like someone said earlier you got to stop looking at stats and trying to make comparisons. Blake and Hayes were the much better backcourt. They each handled the ball better than both Hayes and Vas, they are both quicker and play better defense than Hayes and Vas, they didn't turn the ball over as much as Hayes and Vas and they shot better than Hayes and Vas. I mean besides rebounding which is coming mostly from Vas what do Vas and Hayes do as well or better than Nicholas and Blake.

If Gary had his way Hayes would be a part time player this year and that's what he should be anyway. Both Maze and or Evans if they had got here would have been inserted into the starting rotation. I mean Gary said at the end of the year he wanted to move Vas off the point and get the team quicker. He tried to do it in the offseason but it all fell through.

ccbird

06-11-2008, 03:40 PM

Goes back to GV's and Hayes Frosh year..

Team was starting DJ at the 3, and Jones at the 2.. Both seniors having good years… neither was going to sit… GV was ahead of EH as a player, and the spot available for him to play was at the 1…

GV does not shoot will enough to be a true 2, and he does make plays as a 1… but ultimately, he would still be better suited at the off-guard…

Last year's team had limited shooting ability, and it made sense for Hayes to play off the ball, and take open shots… Hayes is a PG, and it sucks that he gets disparaged regularly, while playing out of position…

I will be interested to see what happens with this come October.

Depending on how well Bowie and Tucker come along and possibly even Mosley if he gets qualified there is a good chance that Hayes isn't getting more than 10 or 15 minutes a game come ACC time. He simply isn't as talented as any of those other players. Sure, Gary will have him starting in November because he is a junior but expect his minutes to go down as the year goes on. And if it doesn't go down and he is playing 30+ min a game like he was last year we are in deep deep trouble.

Eight

06-11-2008, 03:56 PM

inmn

06-11-2008, 04:06 PM

CR,

In comparing stats please realize you play as part of the team, Vasquez and Hayes put up numbers they wouldn't on a better team as there were more minutes and fewer options. Beyond that games are won on defense and they are really going to struggle with penetration and no shot blockers other than Burney-GW will have to tweak his defense which is built on interior help.

Then what do you do with a modified flex that runs through a power inside game if you don't have 4/5's that lack passing skills and touch? What do you do if Burney or Dupree are tired or in foul trouble? Md struggled down the stretch because after the Carolina game teams adjusted and shut down the inside game. They still have quickness, outside shooting, rebounding and now shot blocking issues. Are there any points of the game that you think they will excel at? I can't think of one, maybe playing passing lanes because of their perimeter length. Hopefully Bowie will develop and become more consistent as other than Vasquez he is the only other player that can beat someone off the dribble. Unless Kim is much stronger than advertised he will be a project.

In hindsight GW should have taken Thomas and Walsh instead of stinging them along hoping to get (and qualify) Jennings and now Mosley (assuming he doesn't qualify-also Maze (if he qualifies)over Evans. That's what happens when you are counting on marginal qualifiers-it killed Lefty at the end too!!

They may not be as bad as the 91-92 team that went 14-15/5-11 or the next year that went 12-16/2-14 but they aren't going to be good either.

inmn

06-11-2008, 04:14 PM

It's been said that an alcoholic or an addict hits their bottom when the situation around them deteriorates faster than they can lower their standards. That reminds me of Md basketball now; we keep lowering our standards to discussing making the tournament (not the sweet 16), worrying about recruits qualify, and whether we should admit JUCO combos (academics and arrests).
These weren't issues a few years ago.

Eight

06-11-2008, 05:07 PM

Mosley has qualified and will almost certainly be here next year, not worried about that. Would like to have Thomas, but Jennings was too good to pass on, IMO. Unfortunately that would be a moot point if Gilchrist were still here...

inmn

06-11-2008, 06:11 PM

True enough.. And if that is still the situation after this coming year, I think there will be a change…

You believe the bottom is going to fall-out, I do not.. We will see what happens on the court.

As far as Thomas and Walsh over Jennings and Mosley….. I think we should have taken Thomas… though Jennings was regarded as program changing talent…

I don't think you could take Walsh over Mosley realistically…

Gary has been killed for not keeping hometown talent in Maryland… when the Baltimore POY wants to commit to you, you can't take Walsh instead…

I agree, a qualified Mosley is preferable-and a much better player.

Golgo

06-11-2008, 07:22 PM

mweb

06-11-2008, 07:26 PM

mweb

06-11-2008, 07:33 PM

And no, Gary should not be fired, I feel he's reached the level where it will take a lot for him to be fired, and he's not close to being there yet. Yes, I have issues with his recruiting, but he's also had some bad fortune over the past few years in regards to recruiting and assistant coaches.

Golgo

06-11-2008, 07:40 PM

Totally agree. Saying this team is as talented as those others teams is extremely optimistic to say the least.

Milbourne vs Profit a wash???? Laron put up 15.8, 5.2, 3.3 that year.

And before Francis came, he was the face of the team. I know this a tangent, but during the "pre-season" Vitale called Profit the best dunker in college basketball... guess he hadn't seen Francis yet.

Eight

06-11-2008, 08:27 PM

WHen did he qualify?

I believe the issue has never been about being (NCAA) qualified, but rather meeting Maryland academic standards. I would wager that even if he doesn't meet those standards on his next SAT try, he will still wear the Red and White this fall.

ccbird

06-11-2008, 09:55 PM

Whoa, Vas is a MUCH better ballhandler than Nicholas. Vas ran the point on an NCAA Tourney team that won 25 games his frosh year, no chance Nicholas could have done that. He's a much better scorer than Blake and pretty comparable to Nicholas, at least. Switch Vasquez with either of those guys and I doubt people would be saying they were so much better than he was.

Not suprisingly we will agree to disagree. Vas is not a much better ballhandler than Nicholas at least not senior Nicholas. He often brought the ball up his senior year and had the ball in his hands as much if not more than Blake. Not to mention Vas is much more careless in his decision making than both of them. Like I said if you are just gonna look at stats you can make a good argument for Vas over both you must consider Blake was the 4th or 5th scoring option his whole career until his senior year and Nicholas wasn't a starter until his senior year. I don't feel like trying to look it up but I'd be willing to bet Nicholas scoring per minutes is comparable to Vas and I'm almost certain he will have done it with a better FG %.

Eight

06-11-2008, 11:07 PM

Not suprisingly we will agree to disagree. Vas is not a much better ballhandler than Nicholas at least not senior Nicholas. He often brought the ball up his senior year and had the ball in his hands as much if not more than Blake. Not to mention Vas is much more careless in his decision making than both of them. Like I said if you are just gonna look at stats you can make a good argument for Vas over both you must consider Blake was the 4th or 5th scoring option his whole career until his senior year and Nicholas wasn't a starter until his senior year. I don't feel like trying to look it up but I'd be willing to bet Nicholas scoring per minutes is comparable to Vas and I'm almost certain he will have done it with a better FG %.

I guess I'm looking more toward all three as sophomores. Certainly I'd put Nicholas and Blake as seniors ahead of Vasquez.

That said I think Nicholas and Blake, since they played on great teams, tend have all their flaws forgotten. Yes, you do have to account for Blake being the fourth or fifth option on his team, but it works both ways. Vasquez managed seven assists per game playing on an NIT team - the same as Blake did with a championship team. Blake got to play with a lot more talent around him; he didn't have to be the playmaker AND the leading scorer. It's not like he didn't have some healthy turnover numbers earlier in his career, either. Heck, he turned it over a LOT more in his frosh year than Vasquez did in his freshman season.

Nicholas did improve his ballhandling a lot, but he was a disaster at times earlier in his career. He turned into an effective combo, but coming in his was really a true SG.

ccbird

06-11-2008, 11:32 PM

Junior Vasquez vs Senior Nicholas

Vasquez - 17ppg, 6.8 assts, 5.7 boards, 43.2% from the field, 30.9% from 3, 78.2% from the line, 4.4 turnovers, 1.4 steals as a Soph… All-ACC…

Nicholas - 17.8ppg, 2.67 assts, 3.8 boards, 44% from the field, 41% from 3, 85% from the line, 2.1 turnovers, 1.2 steals as a Senior.. 2 FF's.. A number of daggers.. All-ACC..

Told you it was better. :p

Hoenstly though I figured Vas didn't shoot 43% last year. With that said I just looked up Nicholas career stats and he shot 45% for his career which is pretty darn impressive for a guy who was mostly a jump shooter. The other thing I noticed is that ESPN has a stat for points per shot which is somewhat comparable to points per minute and Nicholas was at 1.48 for his junior year only behind Lonny Baxter on that years team. He was at 1.33 his senior year only behind a freshman John Gilchrist. For comparison sake Vasquez was at 1.30 his freh year and 1.25 last year.

ccbird

06-11-2008, 11:54 PM

I guess I'm looking more toward all three as sophomores. Certainly I'd put Nicholas and Blake as seniors ahead of Vasquez.

That said I think Nicholas and Blake, since they played on great teams, tend have all their flaws forgotten. Yes, you do have to account for Blake being the fourth or fifth option on his team, but it works both ways. Vasquez managed seven assists per game playing on an NIT team - the same as Blake did with a championship team. Blake got to play with a lot more talent around him; he didn't have to be the playmaker AND the leading scorer. It's not like he didn't have some healthy turnover numbers earlier in his career, either. Heck, he turned it over a LOT more in his frosh year than Vasquez did in his freshman season.
Nicholas did improve his ballhandling a lot, but he was a disaster at times earlier in his career. He turned into an effective combo, but coming in his was really a true SG.

First Blake and Vas had identical 1.7/1 assists to turnover ratio as freshman but Blake was 2.2 as a soph and Vas slipped to 1.6 as a soph. Now I acknowledge that Blake had better players around him and that is a factor. But here is the thing that stats won't tell you. Blake pushed the ball harder and faster than Vas and made some great passes that led to easy baskets especially on the break. Blake was a much better PG in the open court. Now in the half court Blake's great vision wasn't as much a factor and like Vas at times he tried to force too much and they are much more comparable PGs.

Eight

06-12-2008, 12:36 AM

ccbird

06-12-2008, 02:09 AM

But that's the thing, comparing them in their sophomore years just on their numbers doesn't work. I seriously doubt that if Dixon and Baxter dropped out of school and Blake became the go-to guy in the offense that he would have had anywhere near a 2.2 ratio.

Either way, I think we probably agree that they were both very good and played roles that makes an exact comparison difficult.

They are both good ball players. I just don't think Vas is a true PG whereas Blake was. As I mentioned before Gary said at the end of the year he prefered to move him off the point and even though he ended up not getting Maze I still think you'll see the ball in Vas's hands less this year.

inmn

06-14-2008, 12:33 PM

I just don't understand how MD can fire Gary. How do you fire a guy that is your program?

I didn't want Billick fired either but Billick isn't a Hall of Fame Coach right now. Billick arguably isn't the best coach that Baltimore has ever seen. Gary Williams is the best coach of any sport in the history of MD athletics. Gary built the team into an elite team....They are still a team that contends for the Sweet 16 every year. How do you fire a guy like that? Gary is right next to Coach K, Jimmy Boeheim, Jim Calhoun, Roy Williams....He's right there in that class. Hall of Fame basketball coach. Look at those other schools...I can't believe that anyone here would think it is anything other than INSANE for those coaches to be fired. Hell Boeheim has had a worse run than Gary has the past 4 years and no one thinks he should be fired, outside of Syracuse anyway.

The standards that we as fans expect are there because of Gary...They are Gary's standards. Gary built the team from crap to where we as fans expect to elite 8 every year...So if we don't get there we are going to fire him for not getting to the highs that only he has gotten to?

I just don't see how it's possible for MD to fire Gary. Doesn't make any sense.

GW is not going to be fired, but he certainly is not holding up his end of the bargain-and like it or not making $2m a year has to produce but on the court and in other facets of his job (academics, admin etc..).

Gary has been a fine coach at Md; a HOF coach, but he did not build Md basketball Lefty did-do your due diligence and check Lefty's record in a more competitive ACC. Gary won the NC but Lefty never got the chance with his best teams because he couldn't win the ACC tournament-only the winner went to the NCAA's-and you will note that the NC team didn't win the ACC tournament. Anyone thinking GW should not be retire should ask the same question about Lefty, very similar issues at the end.

The facts are that Md basketball over the past 5 years (and foreseeable future) underachieves versus other programs within the athletic department.
They should be the crown jewel of Md's AD for reasons noted earlier within this thread but they are far from it. 5-7 years is more than a trend and none of the coaches mention above have been down that long nor had the admin problems GW has had recently. Md has not been a threat to make the sweet 16 recently nor will they in the next two years.

BTW GW is not the "best coach in the history of Md athletics", he's not even close to Jim Tatum. He's a very good coach but not in Tatum's league.

weemnj

06-14-2008, 04:07 PM

GW is not going to be fired, but he certainly is not holding up his end of the bargain-and like it or not making $2m a year has to produce but on the court and in other facets of his job (academics, admin etc..).

Gary has been a fine coach at Md; a HOF coach, but he did not build Md basketball Lefty did-do your due diligence and check Lefty's record in a more competitive ACC. Gary won the NC but Lefty never got the chance with his best teams because he couldn't win the ACC tournament-only the winner went to the NCAA's-and you will note that the NC team didn't win the ACC tournament. Anyone thinking GW should not be retire should ask the same question about Lefty, very similar issues at the end.

The facts are that Md basketball over the past 5 years (and foreseeable future) underachieves versus other programs within the athletic department.
They should be the crown jewel of Md's AD for reasons noted earlier within this thread but they are far from it. 5-7 years is more than a trend and none of the coaches mention above have been down that long nor had the admin problems GW has had recently. Md has not been a threat to make the sweet 16 recently nor will they in the next two years.

BTW GW is not the "best coach in the history of Md athletics", he's not even close to Jim Tatum. He's a very good coach but not in Tatum's league.

Do you or don't you believe that Yow's animosity toward GW is a major hindrance to the BB program?

inmn

06-14-2008, 04:59 PM

Do you or don't you believe that Yow's animosity toward GW is a major hindrance to the BB program?

Weem,

I honestly don't know. I hear rumors they don't care for each other but as we saw with Evans Yow supported him and got him through with an exemption. I don't believe admissions are the issue many do and Evans, Darden, and Mosley are good examples. I don't know what happened with the Clark issue or whether she could have been more supportive. He certainly has all the funding he needs. I know she is not happy with the admin side of the program-with good rason. If you have anything specific I would be interesting in reading it. I just don't see how she has had a big negative impact on the program.

I have met them both and like GW but think she is kind of a cold fish. The issue I have with those that don't like her is that her record at Md is strong and she is very well respected among other AD's and the coaches I know.

inmn

06-14-2008, 05:09 PM

Lefty laid the groundwork but he did not take MD to the next level. Lefty certainly gets his share, and even if the circumstances were more difficult, bottom line is that MD was not the national competitor year in and year out that they are now. It's not like they were extremly close to being in that class the year Gary came in...They were in turmoil and he took them from that, to a NC and a NCAA contender year in and year out. As Beaner said he's the only coach in the ACC that's challenged Duke and NC year in and year out.

Please do your due diligence before posting. Lefty coached at Md for 16 years-8 of those years Md's final ranking was in the top 11!!!! he had final national rankings of 11,10, 4, 5, 11, 8, 11, and 10!!! How is that not a "national competitor"?? He had a better overall win % and a better win % in the ACC.

In comparison GW has had 5 top 15 teams in 19 years (4 top 11). GW has done a great job they simply are not a national contender every year, they have been maybe 3-4 out of 19 years.

BTW as detailed here before GW had a pretty talented team the year he came in with 3 guys who went to the pros.
I think you mean in subsequent years with probation kicking in.

How old are you-do you have any sense of history of the Md program??

inmn

06-14-2008, 05:11 PM

MD was 3 points away from making the sweet 16 the year before last against Butler. How is that not a threat?

Sorry but how is that contending for the Sweet 16 EVERY year??
Kind of hard to do from the NIT-or were you referring to the NIT sweet 16?

Eight

06-14-2008, 07:26 PM

inmn

06-14-2008, 08:56 PM

GW has a higher ACC winning percentage (165-140, .541) than Lefty (112-100, .528) did during his tenure here although Lefty did indeed have the overall lead in winning percentage.

Lefty had 7 (not 8) top 11 finishes whereas GW has had 5 (not 4). Of course that stat is a bit of cherry picking as GW had 5 other teams finish the season ranked but outside the top 11 whereas Lefty had just 1. Obviously pretty similar especially since Lefty's teams were by and large done as National contenders after '76.

In the end both had great careers, both had great teams although obviously the Final Four years were under GW's watch. And unfortunately it looks like neither could sustain their earlier success as their career would down.

Thanks for the correction, I dropped a digit there-GW does have a better win % in the ACC. GW also did have 5 top 11's. As per the attached though Lefty did have 8 top 11's. He also had a good run at the end with 3 top 11's in the last five years. Obvously it depends whether you are looking at the coaches or AP-I like coaches as final AP is before the end of the NCAA's?

IMO Lefty holds no comparison to GW as a coach but I don't like the revisionist history that there was no program here before GW. Lefty had 8 top 11 programs in 16 years-how many coaches can say that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland_Terrapins_men%27s_basketball

weemnj

06-14-2008, 10:54 PM

Weem,

I honestly don't know. I hear rumors they don't care for each other but as we saw with Evans Yow supported him and got him through with an exemption. I don't believe admissions are the issue many do and Evans, Darden, and Mosley are good examples. I don't know what happened with the Clark issue or whether she could have been more supportive. He certainly has all the funding he needs. I know she is not happy with the admin side of the program-with good rason. If you have anything specific I would be interesting in reading it. I just don't see how she has had a big negative impact on the program.

I have met them both and like GW but think she is kind of a cold fish. The issue I have with those that don't like her is that her record at Md is strong and she is very well respected among other AD's and the coaches I know.

INMN;

There are things that I know----I was a contemporary of Gary (Ralph as well) and Gary was a total introvert who said maybe 20 words a week---by delegation he was very successful----he left Ohio State with a top 10 caliber team to come to a wounded Maryland.--As an extreme introvert , he succeeded by delegating tasks he was weak at to others (RECRUITING)-------a system that worked very well for him thru the national championship years.

Yow resents him as a legacy--a success that she cannot take credit for.

If you go to the Md sport site http://forums.scout.com/mb.aspx?S=174&FIX=1#s=174&f=2580 and muck around there is a good amount of anti-Yow (as well as anti Gary) sentiment.

Stoner is just as optimistic over there by the way.:rolleyes:

The reality is mens BB is the only major profit center with football being the only other profitable sport-----but barely so.

The fall of BB to this point is that assistant coach turnover has been so high---based on the sheer success of the program and the ACTIVE interference of Yow (Moxley).

Gary gets nill support in having recruits admitted---Clark---------AND I AM PROUD THAT GARY REFUSES TO FLY 500 MILES TO WAIVE AT A RECRUIT DURING A "NO CONTACT PERIOD" like Donovan did to Shavlik (who ended up at Duke)---and that he refused to be extorted for local---"don't rat" Anthoney======what a stellar character that Gary was criticized for not pursuing more aggressively.

inmn

06-15-2008, 08:53 AM

You said that they were not a threat to make the Sweet 16 recently...That is obviously false since they were within 3 points of making it 2 years ago.

Please reference your original point!!

inmn

06-15-2008, 09:03 AM

Chill out big guy.

I didn't mean it as though MD was some kind of dormat under Lefty. As you said he had some great teams. However they were not at the top national level towards the end of his years, and around the time that GW took over. And for all of those rankings you threw out they didn't get past the Elite 8, which is certainly a good feat but you'd think with those rankings they would have at least been to the final four once. I believe you should at least have to at least get to the Final Four once for your program to catapult as far as recruiting and being considered elite, and even doing it once doesn't mean you reach elite status.

GW had back to back final fours and won a Championship. Opened up the Comcast Center...2002 was likely the best all around year for MD BBall up to that date. Whatever level that Lefty was at, Gary took it multiple steps forward. Don't really see how that can be argued.

GW has done a great job.
Lefty likely would have been to the final 4 if the rules are similar to today, conversly GW would not have gone to the final 4 if the same rules from Lefty's early teams applied.

"they were not at the national level at the end of his career"
A reasonable person would conclude that 3 top 11 final rankings in 5 years is a "national" program". If you aren't even reading my posts there is no reason to continue this!!

inmn

06-15-2008, 09:12 AM

INMN;

There are things that I know----I was a contemporary of Gary (Ralph as well) and Gary was a total introvert who said maybe 20 words a week---by delegation he was very successful----he left Ohio State with a top 10 caliber team to come to a wounded Maryland.--As an extreme introvert , he succeeded by delegating tasks he was weak at to others (RECRUITING)-------a system that worked very well for him thru the national championship years.

Yow resents him as a legacy--a success that she cannot take credit for.

If you go to the Md sport site http://forums.scout.com/mb.aspx?S=174&FIX=1#s=174&f=2580 and muck around there is a good amount of anti-Yow (as well as anti Gary) sentiment.

Stoner is just as optimistic over there by the way.:rolleyes:

The reality is mens BB is the only major profit center with football being the only other profitable sport-----but barely so.

The fall of BB to this point is that assistant coach turnover has been so high---based on the sheer success of the program and the ACTIVE interference of Yow (Moxley).

Gary gets nill support in having recruits admitted---Clark---------AND I AM PROUD THAT GARY REFUSES TO FLY 500 MILES TO WAIVE AT A RECRUIT DURING A "NO CONTACT PERIOD" like Donovan did to Shavlik (who ended up at Duke)---and that he refused to be extorted for local---"don't rat" Anthoney======what a stellar character that Gary was criticized for not pursuing more aggressively.

Weem,

Gary will sometimes open up if he is around people he knows (not me) but it is obvious you know him as he is an introvert-which I think may hurt him in recruiting. I would suspect there is blame to go around on both sides. It's sad to see two people so well respected in their professions unable to get along. I do know she worked to get Evans admitted and then felt burned when the additional arrest came to light-when you deal with guys like Evans they are often not the most honest people. You are right, mens basketball funds the AD to with about an $8m profit-not revenue..profit.

Tony-OH

06-15-2008, 03:53 PM

Sorry but how is that contending for the Sweet 16 EVERY year??
Kind of hard to do from the NIT-or were you referring to the NIT sweet 16?

Nice job in trying to get through, but the Williams apologists will never, ever see any logical or anything wrong with their God.

It's the same as the Billick apologists.

I've given up even trying, because we could go to the NIT ten years straight and they'll still be behind their guy.

It's almost a cult-like devotion if you ask me.

I just let them post away with each other where they can enjoy their NITs and their hopes that the next class will finally put MD back on the basketball map.

Eight

06-15-2008, 04:27 PM

WOW! Cult like devotion? Were you one of the people lambasting GW for not being able to get past the Sweet 16 back around 2000?

No, pro-GW or anti-GW, I hardly see where it's unreasonable to think that a coach with a Hall of Fame track record deserves more than 3 mediocre, 19 win seasons before getting the axe.

What happens with the next coach who has no such track record? Fire him the first time he has a mediocre season?

Tony-OH

06-16-2008, 10:19 AM

Ravenbird meet eight, eight meet Ravenbird...

There now, you guys are buddies and can go polish your GW statues.

Don't worry about all the evidence that suggests GW is no longer a good head coach at a major basketball program. Don't worry about him being an introvert and not recruiting well because of it. Don't worry about the fact that he doesn't even use all of his recruiting budget every year because he doesn't go anywhere. don't worry about the fact that the program is staring at it's fourth year out of five playing in the NIT and that two top recruits just decided to go elsewhere.

Don't worry about any of that stuff. Just sit back and tell yourself he's a hall of fame coach.

Hey while you are at, let's get rid of Dave Trembley and bring back Earl Weaver? I mean, Trembley had no major league experience and afterall, Earl is a hall of fame manager who has two World Championships under his belt and made his team a perrenial winner year in and year out.

It's easier to sit back at home at just ignore all the hard facts and blame it on bad luck or bad players (funny you never accept the fact that these are Williams' players that he brought in). It's always, if this guys didn't leave, or he was acedemically eligible, yada yada yada.

Williams is turning this program into an after thought on the college basketball scene and unfortunately as long as he's turning a profit for the University he's not going anywhere until he really takes a hard look at himself and makes the right decision and resigns.

I really don't want to see him get fired because I don't think that's good for anyone. But I do hope the University puts enough pressure on him that he chhooses to do the right thing for the program and it's fans.

clapdiddy

06-16-2008, 10:51 AM

I truly thought that when Comcast Center opened, we would be looking at a team that would be able to recruit at least some of the BEST players in the country. Gary was coming off of a National Championship, and things were still looking bright for the program.

Now, it seems as if Gary doesn't put the effort into the recruiting process and it shows on the floor. How long do we have to go with a team that can't shoot from the outside? It's been a problem for quite a few years, and it still hasn't been addressed. Also, Gary's in-game coaching hasn't been great, either. His teams have rarely been able to run a capable half-court offense and other teams know this. They've got very little inside presence now, and they are going to rely on the inconsistent Vazquez even more now...and that scares the bejeebers out of me! :eektf:

A couple of years ago, I would agree that he needed some slack. But these last two years have convinced me that its time for Gary to go.

Eight

06-16-2008, 03:31 PM

Ravenbird meet eight, eight meet Ravenbird...

There now, you guys are buddies and can go polish your GW statues.

Wow, I guess this is better than substantively discussing the relevant points others have brought up.

Don't worry about all the evidence that suggests GW is no longer a good head coach at a major basketball program. Don't worry about him being an introvert and not recruiting well because of it. Don't worry about the fact that he doesn't even use all of his recruiting budget every year because he doesn't go anywhere. don't worry about the fact that the program is staring at it's fourth year out of five playing in the NIT and that two top recruits just decided to go elsewhere.

Don't worry about any of that stuff. Just sit back and tell yourself he's a hall of fame coach.

Did he just start becoming an introvert? No, he hasn't recruited well lately, but that's a funny one. Who said he doesn't use his whole recruiting budget - do you really think the men's basketball program has a true budget on that sort of thing? The criticism that he "doesn't go anywhere" is just fictitious and overstated if you actually follow recruiting, not that I think you do. And of course that recruiting budget nonsense doesn't really take into account how many good prospects are in the region where it costs nothing but gas money to go see them.

(By the way, what did the evidence suggest about Gary Williams being a good head coach in 2006-2007?)

It's easier to sit back at home at just ignore all the hard facts and blame it on bad luck or bad players (funny you never accept the fact that these are Williams' players that he brought in). It's always, if this guys didn't leave, or he was acedemically eligible, yada yada yada.

Who said he didn't bring in the players? Does that mean that bad luck doesn't exist? The fact is that the first two NIT years the team missed by one game, and under a different set of circumstances, the Terps would have been dancing both of those years. And if that happens, this silly thread doesn't even exist.

Ruzious

06-16-2008, 04:57 PM

Yeah, that's the first time I ever hear G Dub referred to as an introvert. I'm half expecting him to be called a pedofile next.

Mackus

06-16-2008, 05:33 PM

The fact is that the first two NIT years the team missed by one game, and under a different set of circumstances, the Terps would have been dancing both of those years. And if that happens, this silly thread doesn't even exist.I disagree with this.

The people who hate Gary have hated him for a long time, and even if we make the tournament during the Gilchrist/McCray years, they'd still be calling for his head coming off the loss to Butler last year and the NIT trip this year. He'll, people wanted him fired in February of 2001 after the loss to FSU. All he did to shut up the critics then was take the team to the Final 4 and then the NC the next year.

Gary's made some mistakes, for sure. The poor state of the program right now is 100% on him due to the poor recruiting classes the last 3-4 years (although the Greivis/Milbourne/Hayes class isn't a bad one, we just need a star to go with all the good players). But I think the people who think Gary doesn't deserve a chance to turn things around clearly have an agenda of hatred against the man. They can throw catchy phrases like "go pray to your Gary statues" around and try and needlessly bash the people who aren't out for blood all they want. It doesn't bother me.

I still think Gary is the best man on the planet to get Maryland back to the upper echelon program we should be. Maybe he'll screw it up, its certainly possible. But I firmly believe he is qualified, willing, and able to get the ship righted. Gary strikes me more as a Lute Olson type rather than a Bobby Knight type who is out of touch with the current athlete. I think he'll get the job done.

And I know that he deserves the opportunity, regardless of what some of his critics have to say. How long that opportunity lasts depends on numerous factors, but he definitely deserves the chance.

Tony-OH

06-16-2008, 06:51 PM

Please do your due diligence before posting. Lefty coached at Md for 16 years-8 of those years Md's final ranking was in the top 11!!!! he had final national rankings of 11,10, 4, 5, 11, 8, 11, and 10!!! How is that not a "national competitor"?? He had a better overall win % and a better win % in the ACC.

In comparison GW has had 5 top 15 teams in 19 years (4 top 11). GW has done a great job they simply are not a national contender every year, they have been maybe 3-4 out of 19 years.

BTW as detailed here before GW had a pretty talented team the year he came in with 3 guys who went to the pros.
I think you mean in subsequent years with probation kicking in.

How old are you-do you have any sense of history of the Md program??

Great post. Thanks for the history lesson for those who's memories only remember Williams.

Tony-OH

06-16-2008, 07:07 PM

Wow, I guess this is better than substantively discussing the relevant points others have brought up.

Dude, chill out. Just a play on the old David Letterman Oprah, meet Uma thing. Try to enjoy yourself and stop the little whining.

Did he just start becoming an introvert? No, he hasn't recruited well lately, but that's a funny one. Who said he doesn't use his whole recruiting budget - do you really think the men's basketball program has a true budget on that sort of thing?

It's been widely reported including a post on here that GW is a bit of introvert. As for the budget, I don't have the link to the article but the Sun did a piece a few months back that talked extensively on how GW does not use his recruiting budget because he doesn't go anywhere. It also stated that the Women's programs actually spends more to recruit.

The criticism that he "doesn't go anywhere" is just fictitious and overstated if you actually follow recruiting, not that I think you do. And of course that recruiting budget nonsense doesn't really take into account how many good prospects are in the region where it costs nothing but gas money to go see them.

Sorry, it may be a simplification by saying he "doesn't go anywhere," but he certainly has never beaten the trails as much as the ohter big name coaches. Again, this was in the article.

Who said he didn't bring in the players? Does that mean that bad luck doesn't exist? The fact is that the first two NIT years the team missed by one game, and under a different set of circumstances, the Terps would have been dancing both of those years. And if that happens, this silly thread doesn't even exist.

See, this is not a silly thread at all. It's brought out exactly what I wanted, which is discussion on the merits of GW as coach of the Terps. Just because you don't agree with my facts and opinions, does not make it silly. I'll be nice and not knock you the rep points for saying my thread is silly, because I think I've earned enough respect around here to not be mocked.

Now, to your point. Please show me the NBA players that GW has brought in since the National Championship? Ok, none really, so show me the players who have graduated? Oh yeah, he stinks there too.

How in the world do you take the momentum that a National Championship season brings a program and turn it into the disaster that we certainly are going through?

You know how? Laziness and feeling like the job was done. I truly believe Williams got lazy in his approach and felt players would just be fawning all over themselves to be the next Juan Dixon and Lonny Baxter.

I'll tell you what, the last top notch player GW recruited was Chris Wilcox. I really thought he turned the corner with that recruit but I think Williams felt betrayed when Wilcox went pro and decided to try and find the next Lonny Baxter and Juan Dixon instead of getting a few Wilcox's who may only give the program one or two years, but who will keep your program dancing.

I used to be a big GW fan, but I feel betrayed by his laziness and arrogance that has led to this program being in shambles. Players leaving at every opportunity, NITs in 3 out of 4 years, and staring straight at another NIT season.

Maybe that's ok to you and some others, but I believe we deserve more.

Mackus

06-16-2008, 07:33 PM

I'll tell you what, the last top notch player GW recruited was Chris Wilcox. I really thought he turned the corner with that recruit but I think Williams felt betrayed when Wilcox went pro and decided to try and find the next Lonny Baxter and Juan Dixon instead of getting a few Wilcox's who may only give the program one or two years, but who will keep your program dancing.They may not have panned out exactly as hoped, but Gilchrist, Garrison, Jones, Ibekwe and Gist were all pretty highly rated guys IIRC. Similar to Wilcox. At least certainly at the time they signed, I think Wilcox shot up a lot after committing to MD. His late rise was one of the big reasons he was able to sneak out of North Carolina.

I agree he hasn't delivered any top tier guys the last 3 years, and have criticized him for it. But he has been involved with the right type of guys, and even gotten commits but for various reasons they haven't made it to CP.

Tony-OH

06-16-2008, 09:04 PM

They may not have panned out exactly as hoped, but Gilchrist, Garrison, Jones, Ibekwe and Gist were all pretty highly rated guys IIRC. Similar to Wilcox. At least certainly at the time they signed, I think Wilcox shot up a lot after committing to MD. His late rise was one of the big reasons he was able to sneak out of North Carolina.

I agree he hasn't delivered any top tier guys the last 3 years, and have criticized him for it. But he has been involved with the right type of guys, and even gotten commits but for various reasons they haven't made it to CP.

I hear your Mac, but if you claim GW has brought in the high level recruits, then you have to question his ability to develop that talent.

He's brought in some decent college guys, no doubt, but he's missing that impact guy, and that in my opinion comes from going out and showing the love to these kind of guys.

This is the me generation. I'm not thrilled with it either, but it comes down to the fact that guys like Rudy Gay leave our own backyard and that should not happen. With the right coach, it would not of happened in my opinion.

This is an honest question to the GW backers, is it the players GW recruited that have been sub par, or were they not developed properly? If it's neither, then what has it been?

BaltimoreTerp

06-16-2008, 09:08 PM

Mackus

06-16-2008, 09:26 PM

I hear your Mac, but if you claim GW has brought in the high level recruits, then you have to question his ability to develop that talent.

He's brought in some decent college guys, no doubt, but he's missing that impact guy, and that in my opinion comes from going out and showing the love to these kind of guys.

This is the me generation. I'm not thrilled with it either, but it comes down to the fact that guys like Rudy Gay leave our own backyard and that should not happen. With the right coach, it would not of happened in my opinion.

This is an honest question to the GW backers, is it the players GW recruited that have been sub par, or were they not developed properly? If it's neither, then what has it been?I think Jones was supposed to be one of those super elite talents. He just didn't pan out. Whether its from coaching, being over-hyped or whatever reason. He was still a good player, just not the stud he was supposed to be. I don't know enough to know where or why he fell short, just that he did.

Missing out on Gay was big too. That really hurt. From what I've read Gary had realized that his two classes following the NC didn't have a star and went after Gist and Gay to be the two headliners along with supporting cast from the veterans. Missing out on Gay really hurt that. I put that more on some shady tactics from Calhoun than Gary not doing his work. I think most of the people who are really into recruiting share that opinion. I don't think Gay left due to lack of effort from Gary, although again there are people more in the know than me, several on this board who hopefully can shed some light.

Since then though, the shortcomings are on Gary, no doubt. He's gotten the ear of a few really talented guys, but they just haven't come here. That's on him and he's gotta account for that. I just think he should be given the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to fix his mess rather than get canned without any regard for what he's done or meant to the program.

And by "his mess" I mean the team last year and likely this upcoming year. I don't really view the first two NIT teams as indictments of Gary as a coach. There were very obvious outlying circumstances those seasons. Those teams as visualized by Gary were Sweet 16 caliber at worst. But losing their best player in mid-season (gilchrist has to be considered lost, at least his mind) turned those teams into bubble teams. I do agree they weren't Final 4 caliber teams as they should've been after the NC, but that's not a heinous crime, just a bit disappointing.

Gofannon

06-16-2008, 09:29 PM

I'll be honest - I really don't know what to do with Gary.

This offseason has been as bad as an offseason could possibly be without a recruiting violation or some genuine tragedy in the program. The following people have committed to play here in the fall of '08, whether a letter of intent or a verbal - Gilchrist, Jennings, Maze, Evans, Mosley. We may go 0 for 6, and that's with people who have committed to us! That doesn't even include the local talent that's gone elsewhere, other ships that have passed in the night (Ken Bowman, anyone? Ater Majok's soft verbal?), or Shane Walker leaving.

To look at this offseason as anything other than an unmitigated disaster and to hope that next year's team has a better chance to make the tournament than last year's team is not just putting lipstick on a pig, it's putting lipstick on the back end of a pig.

Basketball coaches have to do four things - win, recruit, graduate, maintain alumni support. Right now Williams hasn't been recruiting and hasn't been graduating anyone. If he doesn't win, he's 0 for 3, and alumni support will start to go as well, don't you think?

To place the blame on Yow or Gilchrest or Gilchrist or McCray or Garrison or any of the other popular whipping boys while tooting what Gary's built here is complete blindness. This is Gary's program. He's built it - you're right. That means he gets blame, too. He's the one who has recruited these guys. He's responsible for this horrible recruiting year. He's also worked with Yow for 14 years. Shouldn't he now know how to work within the parameters she's giving him?

To compare Williams to Roy Williams or Jim Calhoun, as others have on here, is crazy unless you're going by age group. Just looking at recent records, I guess Jim Boeheim is a possible comparison, though his squad is loaded for next year.

I've always agreed with the Billick comparisons to some degree, though on a college basketball level, I wonder how much we're looking at the end of the Denny Crum era. Similar highs, similar lows, though Crum had recruiting violations that Gary never has. I think Crum resigned at 64. When Gary's 64, he may well have just led his team to its 4th NIT in 5 years.

It's scary to think of the Maryland program without Williams. They could be like Louisville after Crum (bring in big-name coach and have the program return to glory), or they could be like St. John's after Lou Carnesecca (4 or 5 coaches in 15 years).

I sure hope things turn around, because I love Maryland basketball, and I hope recruiting and graduation rates turn around. But I think Maryland is now set up to have even more trouble recruiting. You know other schools will be talking to recruits about Maryland's downturn, this disastrous offseason, and the fact that there coach is getting a Social Security check and may be in the twilight of his career.

Again, as I said at the beginning, I don't know what to do with him. It's hard to envision firing him, but next year is set up to be a bad one. Do we wait a year and fire him next year, when he's got 4 NITs out of 5 and is a year older? Are we just putting the program on hold if we do that? Has he earned that? I don't know. I do know I wouldn't give him a lifetime pass.

For those of you who got this far, thanks for reading.

Mackus

06-16-2008, 09:38 PM

Again, as I said at the beginning, I don't know what to do with him. It's hard to envision firing him, but next year is set up to be a bad one. Do we wait a year and fire him next year, when he's got 4 NITs out of 5 and is a year older? Are we just putting the program on hold if we do that? Has he earned that? I don't know. I do know I wouldn't give him a lifetime pass.I don't think he gets a lifetime pass, but I certainly don't think its fair to tell him "do it next year or you are gone". The majority of this anger is because next year is looking to be so bad. So to basically tell him he has to overachieve by a great amount or he's gone is absurd, in my view. If you tell him he needs to get things looking in better shape within a year, thats a different story. Tell him he needs to bring in a very good class, that should be able to work with what is already here and make us a legit NCAA team by the following year.

That would be the minimal thing that he deserves, and I'd probably give him even another year beyond that, although if things aren't looking very good by that point, I'd expect him to gracefully walk away rather than force Yow and, more importantly to him, the boosters and University in general make an ugly decision.

I still think it'll be several years longer before Gary and this University that I love part ways, and I think that is a very good thing. I've just got confidence in the man to get this program to where we all think it should be.

EddieO's21

06-16-2008, 10:34 PM

I don't think he gets a lifetime pass, but I certainly don't think its fair to tell him "do it next year or you are gone". The majority of this anger is because next year is looking to be so bad. So to basically tell him he has to overachieve by a great amount or he's gone is absurd, in my view. If you tell him he needs to get things looking in better shape within a year, thats a different story. Tell him he needs to bring in a very good class, that should be able to work with what is already here and make us a legit NCAA team by the following year.

That would be the minimal thing that he deserves, and I'd probably give him even another year beyond that, although if things aren't looking very good by that point, I'd expect him to gracefully walk away rather than force Yow and, more importantly to him, the boosters and University in general make an ugly decision.

I still think it'll be several years longer before Gary and this University that I love part ways, and I think that is a very good thing. I've just got confidence in the man to get this program to where we all think it should be.

Mac as much as I love your passion, the program is going under legendary status for this "fall from grace." I can't remember a program in recent memory that has had so many recruiting and performance struggles so early after a national championship. As cliche as it sounds, Gary is really having a tough haul keeping up with the times.

The game hasn't passed him by, but certainly the intangibles and minor idiosyncrasies that surround it and are vital to success might have. Good on the court coaching can only take you so far

Golgo

06-16-2008, 11:06 PM

Mac as much as I love your passion, the program is going under legendary status for this "fall from grace." I can't remember a program in recent memory that has had so many recruiting and performance struggles so early after a national championship. As cliche as it sounds, Gary is really having a tough haul keeping up with the times.

The game hasn't passed him by, but certainly the intangibles and minor idiosyncrasies that surround it and are vital to success might have. Good on the court coaching can only take you so far

I think you can find programs that have had similar falls (I guess it depends on what you consider recent): UMass, Arkansas, Cinci, UNC (with a recent resurgence), Syracuse (to a lesser extent), Georgetown (with a recent resurgence), etc.

Also, the landscape of college basketball has changed dramatically since the NC. THis is mainly due to the major rise of the "mid majors." Back then you were talking about a couple of mids making regular splashes (gonzaga, creighton), but now you start adding teams like Butler, W-Kentucky, Davidson, etc. making splashes in the tourney on a regular basis. This is not to say that Gary gets a free pass on this, but I think the changes have been pretty dramatic. The UNCs, the Dukes, UCLAs, etc don't have as much trouble making this adjustment due to being able to recruit almost exclusively on legacy. Gary may be taking a bit longer than some in adjusting. I dont think he necessarily gets a lifetime pass, but I think he should get cut some slack - more slack than some on this board are willing to give him.

Gofannon

06-16-2008, 11:56 PM

I don't think he gets a lifetime pass, but I certainly don't think its fair to tell him "do it next year or you are gone".

I was just basing the lifetime pass comment on something you mentioned on the first page. Others here feel the same way. I'm not sure if you were saying that you'd give him a lifetime pass, but you don't think he gets one. I understand that.

I do agree with you that you can't tell him to do it next year or he's gone. The man has done enough for the school and the program that they won't put him in that situation - do well with a team inferior to last year or you're out of there.

Oh, and he certainly doesn't go anywhere on June 16th, either.

I just think we can't assume things will be worse without him or better without him. That depends on whether you replace him with a Rick Pitino or a Craig Esherick (figuratively speaking).

Eight

06-17-2008, 01:15 AM

Ok, none really, so show me the players who have graduated? Oh yeah, he stinks there too.

See this is the type of criticism that bothers me. The infamous 0% graduation rate was about the classes that made up a large part of the National Championship roster. While I'd like to see some of them graduate (and some like Tahj Holden, have), do people REALLY care about them not graduating?

Not to mention that over the past two years Ibekwe, Bowers, Brown, Gist, and Osby graduated, making it five of the last seven scholarship seniors. Dave Neal will likely be added to that list next year making it 6-of-8 but we rarely here about that.

You know how? Laziness and feeling like the job was done. I truly believe Williams got lazy in his approach and felt players would just be fawning all over themselves to be the next Juan Dixon and Lonny Baxter.

Hey, I don't disagree that he hasn't put 100% effort into keeping the program at an elite level. He's too good of a coach for this to be his best effort. But I think it is a vast oversimplification.

The main issue has been recruiting. The '02 and '03 classes were good. Regardless of results and regardless of people claiming years later that "everyone knew they were overrated", those classes were highly touted. Was that the product of laziness? Gilchrist was pretty close to being the big timer you say we've lacked, but unfortunately his head wasn't on straight.

Now, the next two classes did stink. A guy like Dave Neal should not have been given a scholarship, especially in a year with few to give. The lack of getting a four year PG, and instead taking Ledbetter and Brown, was bad. The Rudy Gay-Calhoun episode hurt a lot, and so did Shane Clark mysteriously falling through the cracks. Still, those were not good classes.

Then the next two classes ('06-'07) were solid, but with the lack of upper class leadership from the previous two bomb classes, combined with the lack of a big timer in those classes has made those two classes look worse than they are.

'08 is a completely different story. There have been a ton of talented players that have committed here at one time or another only to end up elsewhere - Gus Gilchrist, Bobby Maze, Tyree Evans, Terrence Jennings, Ken Bowman, maybe Ater Majok - that speaks to things happening that are outside of Gary not doing his job.

So I'm not sure what the answer is or what the exact problem is. In the end Gary's results will stand on their own merits, good or bad. But right now, on 6/17/2008, I think Gary deserves at least one more season to turn it around.

accinfo

06-17-2008, 09:16 AM

'08 is a completely different story. There have been a ton of talented players that have committed here at one time or another only to end up elsewhere - Gus Gilchrist, Bobby Maze, Tyree Evans, Terrence Jennings, Ken Bowman, maybe Ater Majok - that speaks to things happening that are outside of Gary not doing his job.

It does speak to the job he is doing. It is well known that Jennings, Bowman, Evans and MAze had severe academic and/or other outside problems. That is why they were available at this way late stage. Lets see how many of them ever play college basketball next semester or ever. Instead of grasping as these straws Gary williams should have signed a 2008 class two years ago with talent and that could read and write.

Golgo

06-17-2008, 12:02 PM

Ruzious

06-17-2008, 01:49 PM

It's been widely reported including a post on here that GW is a bit of introvert.
Can you provide a link for that and how it's affected his job performance?

Gofannon

06-17-2008, 02:23 PM

[QUOTE=Ravenbird;1363593]Guys like Gircrest, Jones, Garrison, Ibekwe...These guys were all highly rated as has been said by other guys in this thread. I think it's a reflection of both Gary and the players that they didnt' pan out. However, maybe it's just me being naive, but it's really hard for me to put alot of blame on a coach with the track record as Gary when a guy doesn't develop. 18 year old guy full ride all the luxuries, or Hall of Fame coach? Which is the one that has more of an inclination for something to go wrong on their end?
QUOTE]

A couple of things here:

While Gary does have a track record, the track record is with guys who finished playing 5 or more years ago. Recently there have been a lot more guys who haven't lived up to their supposed potential (Gilchrest, Jones, Garrison, Ibekwe, Caner-Medley) than guys who have reached their "potential" (Strawberry, maybe Gist). That doesn't include low-ceiling guys such as Osby, who certainly improved.

Even with Gary's track record, the track record of the last five years is nowhere near as strong.

I'm sure the ever-revolving door of assistant coaches has something to do with that, but there's no denying he's swung and missed more than he's connected even before this recruiting season.

weemnj

06-17-2008, 04:09 PM

Can you provide a link for that and how it's affected his job performance?

Over the years Gary had ,quite successfully, delegated a major part of recruiting to his asst. coaches. With the success of the national championship many of Gary's asst. coaches were hired away to better positions-one of the prices of success. This hiring away and Moxley's alleged mistreatment at the hands of Yow caused a serious disruption to ,not only recruiting, but player development as well.

accinfo

06-17-2008, 10:26 PM

Gary is going to be there this year…

There is a lot of off season left.

Mackus

06-17-2008, 10:56 PM

There is a lot of off season left.Oh come on. :rolleyestf:

mweb

06-18-2008, 01:39 AM

I think Gary should stay as I've said, just want to add that it doesn't make sense to compare keeping Gary Williams at MD to keeping Billick with the Ravens. Very different situations.

Tony-OH

06-19-2008, 01:19 PM

See this is the type of criticism that bothers me. The infamous 0% graduation rate was about the classes that made up a large part of the National Championship roster. While I'd like to see some of them graduate (and some like Tahj Holden, have), do people REALLY care about them not graduating?

Not to mention that over the past two years Ibekwe, Bowers, Brown, Gist, and Osby graduated, making it five of the last seven scholarship seniors. Dave Neal will likely be added to that list next year making it 6-of-8 but we rarely here about that.

Hey, I don't disagree that he hasn't put 100% effort into keeping the program at an elite level. He's too good of a coach for this to be his best effort. But I think it is a vast oversimplification.

The main issue has been recruiting. The '02 and '03 classes were good. Regardless of results and regardless of people claiming years later that "everyone knew they were overrated", those classes were highly touted. Was that the product of laziness? Gilchrist was pretty close to being the big timer you say we've lacked, but unfortunately his head wasn't on straight.

Now, the next two classes did stink. A guy like Dave Neal should not have been given a scholarship, especially in a year with few to give. The lack of getting a four year PG, and instead taking Ledbetter and Brown, was bad. The Rudy Gay-Calhoun episode hurt a lot, and so did Shane Clark mysteriously falling through the cracks. Still, those were not good classes.

Then the next two classes ('06-'07) were solid, but with the lack of upper class leadership from the previous two bomb classes, combined with the lack of a big timer in those classes has made those two classes look worse than they are.

'08 is a completely different story. There have been a ton of talented players that have committed here at one time or another only to end up elsewhere - Gus Gilchrist, Bobby Maze, Tyree Evans, Terrence Jennings, Ken Bowman, maybe Ater Majok - that speaks to things happening that are outside of Gary not doing his job.

So I'm not sure what the answer is or what the exact problem is. In the end Gary's results will stand on their own merits, good or bad. But right now, on 6/17/2008, I think Gary deserves at least one more season to turn it around.

Ok, although I don't agree, that's a valid assessment. I just get frustrated with the people who give Williams a lifetime pass.

Let me ask you though, what would need to happen in this next season for you to be for Williams being shown the door? NIT? Losing record in ACC?

I think most of us agree we're looking at a tough season next year, so what has to to happen for you to finally get on the Gary needs to go train? :)

Ruzious

06-19-2008, 04:08 PM

Ok, although I don't agree, that's a valid assessment. I just get frustrated with the people who give Williams a lifetime pass.

Let me ask you though, what would need to happen in this next season for you to be for Williams being shown the door? NIT? Losing record in ACC?

I think most of us agree we're looking at a tough season next year, so what has to to happen for you to finally get on the Gary needs to go train? :)
You can't make an inteligent quantitative decision like that when you don't know what the quality of the other ACC schools' teams will be and what injuries and luck (good or bad) the Terps might have. You also have to look on how the future looks at the end of the season. There are too many unknown variables. How those variables turn out = reality; not excuses.

Hallas

06-27-2008, 04:59 AM

Let me preface this by saying that I can't believe what I'm about to type. I am not that old (not old enough for the Len Bias thing to have an effect on me). Nonetheless I remember, very vividly, what Williams brought the basketball team back from, and I believe that he is the best basketball coach that Maryland will ever have, at least during my lifetime. That said...

There is something amiss in College Park. Williams has recruited NBA-level talent from 1989 until about 4 years ago. I simply don't buy into the notion that he is a lazy recruiter. A lot of hype is made over how he turned players like Dixon and Baxter into the players they are. But he also snagged Blake, who if I recall was highly recruited. And Wilcox. And before that, he had players like Joe Smith. Hipp. Francis. Morris. The list goes on. You could argue that Patsos played a role in recruiting, but Williams was able to recruit Walt and field a serviceable team in the face of NCAA sanctions, all before Patsos' time. The fact that he can't do so now is simply unfathomable given what he's done in the past.

I believe that his (non)relationship with Debbie Yow is finally affecting his ability to do his work. If that's the case, then, as much as it pains me to say this, either Yow or Williams must go. Since Yow is technically Williams' boss, and has the power of public relations on her side, I have the sense that it will be Williams that goes.

Mark my words: if Williams is the one that goes, then University of Maryland basketball will not approach the level of success from the early 2000s anytime in the next 5 years. I strongly believe that Williams is up there with the great coaches of college ball, and there is absolutely no way in my mind that our current swoon is the result of a lack of effort or skill on Williams' part. But there is a problem in College Park, and unfortunately if fixing that problem involves getting rid of Gary Williams, then so be it. But I also know that my dedication to Maryland basketball will be significantly tempered if he is let go.

Golgo

06-27-2008, 11:25 AM

But he also snagged Blake, who if I recall was highly recruited. And Wilcox. And before that, he had players like Joe Smith. Hipp. Francis. Morris. The list goes on. You could argue that Patsos played a role in recruiting, but Williams was able to recruit Walt and field a serviceable team in the face of NCAA sanctions, all before Patsos' time.

Actually Billy Hahn was the big recruiter for Gary (before Patsos). He is credited with recruiting Williams, Smith and Francis (among others). I think losing Hahn (and Patsos soon after) has had the largest impact on the program.

I'm sure there are lots of other issues involved, but I wonder why Hahn wasn't brought back after he was fired from La Salle? He didnt leave LaSalle with the best publicity. He is at WVU now.

beaner

06-27-2008, 11:47 AM

Actually Billy Hahn was the big recruiter for Gary (before Patsos). He is credited with recruiting Williams, Smith and Francis (among others). I think losing Hahn (and Patsos soon after) has had the largest impact on the program.

I'm sure there are lots of other issues involved, but I wonder why Hahn wasn't brought back after he was fired from La Salle? He didnt leave LaSalle with the best publicity. He is at WVU now.

Art Perry signed Smith, who wasn't even the highest rated player on his High school team. Perry went to Virginia to recruit Ed Geth, who ended up sitting on Coach Smith's bench in Chapel Hill for four years while Smith became a monster. Joe Smith is the best example of a guy who thrived under Gary Williams. He and Dixon both went from decent prospects to NBA players.

I've given my outsider view on Gary throughout these threads so I won't go into it again. Recruiting was never his strength, never has been, never will be. I count four McDonald's All Americans that he's recruited over the years. Jimmy Jackson, Danny Miller, Travis Garrison, and Mike Jones. It's not like he's been bringing these type of prospects in before the last few years, he never did. So to say it's the recent recruiting is just not logical.

weemnj

06-27-2008, 03:01 PM

Gary had almost always delegated recruiting----losing his ass't coaches at an increased rate since the natty caused the recruiting slump------along with the situation alluded to in Hallas's middle paragraphs,,,and Yow is a very formidable roadblock.

Hallas

06-27-2008, 08:55 PM

Art Perry signed Smith, who wasn't even the highest rated player on his High school team. Perry went to Virginia to recruit Ed Geth, who ended up sitting on Coach Smith's bench in Chapel Hill for four years while Smith became a monster. Joe Smith is the best example of a guy who thrived under Gary Williams. He and Dixon both went from decent prospects to NBA players.

I've given my outsider view on Gary throughout these threads so I won't go into it again. Recruiting was never his strength, never has been, never will be. I count four McDonald's All Americans that he's recruited over the years. Jimmy Jackson, Danny Miller, Travis Garrison, and Mike Jones. It's not like he's been bringing these type of prospects in before the last few years, he never did. So to say it's the recent recruiting is just not logical.

I think it's largely because of who else is in the conference that he cannot recruit the McD all-Americans. There's only so much room in the ACC for elite-level teams... I don't know if Williams is really to blame for his inability to snag the best high-school recruits, though I will admit that he probably doesn't help himself as much as he could.

beaner

06-27-2008, 09:16 PM

I think it's largely because of who else is in the conference that he cannot recruit the McD all-Americans. There's only so much room in the ACC for elite-level teams... I don't know if Williams is really to blame for his inability to snag the best high-school recruits, though I will admit that he probably doesn't help himself as much as he could.

I think you may have misinterpreted my post. I am a Gary supporter (even as a Carolina fan). I think his strength is developing players, whether they were highly recruited or not. By pointing out his lack of McDonalds AA guys, I was just saying that I strongly disagree with those who say his recruiting has slipped recently. He's bringing in the same level player he has since he left American for Boston College. From John Bagley and Dana Barros, to Jamaal Brown and Chris Jent, to Joe Smith and Juan Dixon, I've always felt Williams strength was taking that "B" level prospect and turning them into NBA players.

In fact he's had less success with the few McDonald's guys he's recruited. You can't count Jimmy Jackson because he didn't get to coach him, but Miller, Garrison, and Jones were nice players but far from what experts projected for them out of High School.

Hallas

06-28-2008, 08:02 AM

I think you may have misinterpreted my post. I am a Gary supporter (even as a Carolina fan). I think his strength is developing players, whether they were highly recruited or not. By pointing out his lack of McDonalds AA guys, I was just saying that I strongly disagree with those who say his recruiting has slipped recently. He's bringing in the same level player he has since he left American for Boston College. From John Bagley and Dana Barros, to Jamaal Brown and Chris Jent, to Joe Smith and Juan Dixon, I've always felt Williams strength was taking that "B" level prospect and turning them into NBA players.

In fact he's had less success with the few McDonald's guys he's recruited. You can't count Jimmy Jackson because he didn't get to coach him, but Miller, Garrison, and Jones were nice players but far from what experts projected for them out of High School.

I'm not doubting you there re: Williams' strengths in player development, I'm just adding that Williams has a strike against him in the ACC because of the existence of two strong programs with very rich histories.

inmn

06-28-2008, 10:56 AM

It has been shown here many, many times GW's best teams were his most highly ranked recruited teams. Yes he is wonderful at developing players, but when he has gotten the top 50 or 75 players his teams were much better. On the NC team alone Wilcox was a top 25 guy; Blake, Holden, Baxter, and Mouton (transfer) were all top 75 or better-Randle was a top 25 JUCO.

Who would you rather have Baxter, Wilcox, Holden and Randle or Burney/Dupree/Neal?

Md will not make the NCAA's this year and most likely not next year.
You can make all the excuses you want: assistants (I agree on this, but he was the guy that hired Adams), Yow (this has some merit, but he won the NC under Yow-and no one else has a problem with her), admissions (this is out this with Evans/Darden). Either way GW is responsible; he is paid for a premium product, he won under the same circumstances......no more excuses!!

The notion that they can't recruit premium players because of UNC and Duke doesn't work when you look at ACC history let alone what Wake, Tech and State have done. Are you saying Beasley, Durant, Gay, and others were afraid of Duke and UNC???

BTW it appears they have already missed on their two self professed biggest targets for next year: Dawkins (Duke) and Taylor. New year, same old story-maybe they can start scouting the JUCO's early......

Eight

06-28-2008, 05:02 PM

Dawkins is a class of 2010 player who was not very likely to go anywhere but Duke.

inmn

06-28-2008, 05:45 PM

Dawkins is a class of 2010 player who was not very likely to go anywhere but Duke.

Everyone but Md is in 2010 :rolleyes:

Eight

06-28-2008, 05:52 PM

No idea what that means.

inmn

06-28-2008, 07:41 PM

No idea what that means.

Sorry, got interrupted in the middle-a reference to Md still trying to fill this year's class. My understanding is that Dawkins was personally recruited by GW, so I don't think Md considered him a lock. It is good to see GW involved with underclassmen.

Pedro Cerrano

07-02-2008, 03:13 PM

This article is very telling...

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=oneil_dana&id=3469331

BaltimoreTerp

07-02-2008, 04:52 PM

This article is very telling...

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=oneil_dana&id=3469331

Yeah, it tells us that the AAU coaches in the area don't like him :laughlol:

Between the almost-exclusive use of (probably) anti-Williams sources, and quality research like this:

Barring late summer additions, Sean Mosley -- whose academic status was tenuous but is now expected to qualify, according to the Baltimore Sun -- will be the lone member of Maryland's freshman class.

...ignoring Kim (I'll give a pass on Goings, since that just came about), it gives me questions about the overall motivation behind the article. But most of it can't really be argued (especially since it is all a re-hash of what we already know, though of course not written for the superfan).

Still interesting to see what happens between Yow and Williams, especially if (when ;) :laughlol: ) there is a resurgance in the program.