Ichiro and 3000

[DrungoHazewood]

The other night Ichiro got his 3000th professional hit (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jdhzAG_PVP2AfaE6tQrpwNHdMA0gD9280M5O0). Surprised there wasn't even a mention of it here. Of course most of the reason why is that 1,287 of them came in Japan. Still a very impressive feat for a 34-year-old. There's a legitimate chance he'll get 3000 major league hits, and some chance he'll break (with his combined numbers) Pete Rose's records for MLB hits (4256) and professional hits (4683).

What I'd really like to see one day is baseball-reference.com have a combined site that presented the complete records of as many players as possible, including their time in the US majors, affiliated minors, non-affiliated minors, and foreign leagues. Give us totals for each category, and grand totals. The baseball cube is pretty good for this, but has a lot of gaps. SABR has a minor league database (http://minors.sabrwebs.com/cgi-bin/index.php) that's in an early form, but trying to fill in the gaps for the US minors going back to the beginning of time. And I've heard rumors bb-ref is sitting on a ton of Japanese data, and plans on releasing it sometime in the future.

Major league numbers are great, of course. But other leagues have millions of wonderful stories to tell, too.

[BaltimoreTerp]

It did get a metion on Sportscenter, so I'll give credit for that.

I think it is impossible to get any kind of truly accurate database for all of professional baseball, just because of the sheer number of teams that have existed at different times in different places with no one keeping track of things, or especially in the 1800s records being lost or destroyed.

Its like the trouble with Negro League stats, only multiplied.

It is a great idea to try and build, though.

[DrungoHazewood]

Don't ask me where I got this, since I clearly couldn't have put it together in the middle of the work day, but here's a list of the top players ranked by professional hits:


Rank Name MLB MLB Rk Minors Total Missing
1 Pete Rose 4256 1 427 4683 0
2 Ty Cobb 4189 2 166 4355 1
3 Hank Aaron 3771 3 324 4095 0
4 Stan Musial 3630 4 371 4001 0
5 Tris Speaker 3514 5 451 3965 0
6 Julio Franco 2566 75 1376 3942 1
7 Paul Waner 3152 15 635 3787 0
8 C. Yastrzemski 3419 6 363 3782 0
9 Sam Crawford 2961 29 781 3742 4
10 Wade Boggs 3010 24 724 3734 0
11 Eddie Murray 3255 11 451 3706 0
12 R. Henderson 3055 20 650 3705 0
13 Cal Ripken 3184 13 463 3647 0
14 G. VanHaltren 2532 77 1037 3569 0
15 Jake Beckley 2930 T33 616 3546 1
16 Nap Lajoie 3242 12 303 3545 0
17 George Brett 3154 14 325 3479 0
18 Willie Mays 3283 10 179 3462 0
19 Cap Anson 2995 27 423 3418 0
20 Honus Wagner 3415 7 0 3415 0
21 Paul Molitor 3319 8 86 3405 0
22 Tony Gwynn 3141 17 246 3387 0
23 Jesse Burkett 2850 41 531 3381 0
24 Tony Perez 2732 50 617 3349 0
25 Rod Carew 3053 21 285 3338 0
26 Rafael Palmeiro 3020 23 303 3323 0
27 Eddie Collins 3312 9 7 3319 0
28 Al Simmons 2927 35 383 3310 0
29 Sam Rice 2987 28 289 3276 0
30 Frank Robinson 2943 30 331 3274 0
31 Al Oliver 2743 48 516 3259 0
32 Craig Biggio 3060 19 171 3231 0
33 Billy Williams 2711 56 510 3221 0
34 Robin Yount 3142 16 69 3211 0
35 Brooks Robinson 2848 42 361 3209 0
36 Vada Pinson 2757 46 449 3206 0
37 Lou Brock 3023 22 181 3204 0
38 Harold Baines 2866 40 335 3201 0
39 Goose Goslin 2735 49 460 3195 0
40 Roberto Alomar 2724 51 466 3190 0
41 Joe Medwick 2471 86 718 3189 0
42 Nellie Fox 2663 61 518 3181 0
43 Dave Parker 2712 55 457 3169 0
44 Zack Wheat 2884 36 283 3167 1
45 C. Gehringer 2839 43 323 3162 0
46 Lave Cross 2644 66 508 3152 0
47 Rogers Hornsby 2930 T33 215 3145 0
48 Tim Raines 2605 T68 524 3129 0
49 R.Maranville 2605 T68 515 3120 0
50 Dave Winfield 3110 18 0 3110 0
51 Isao Harimoto 0 N/A 3085 3085 0
52 Bill Buckner 2715 54 368 3083 0
53 George Sisler 2812 44 260 3072 0
54 Barry Bonds 2935 31 122 3057 0
55 Heinie Manush 2524 79 532 3056 0
56 Omar Vizquel 2631 67 423 3054 0
57 R. Clemente 3000 26 38 3038 0
58 Jimmy Ryan 2502 82 523 3025 0
59 Ichiro Suzuki 1726 ?? 1287 3013 0
60 Andre Dawson 2774 45 235 3009 0
61 Ted Williams 2654 64 354 3008 0
62 Al Kaline 3007 25 0 3007 0
63 Mickey Vernon 2495 83 511 3006 0
64 Doc Cramer 2705 57 289 2994 0
65 Lou Gehrig 2721 52 270 2991 0
66 Willie Keeler 2932 32 43 2975 0
67 Willie Davis 2564 76 407 2971 0
68 Fred McGriff 2490 84 465 2955 0
69 Luis Aparicio 2677 58 264 2941 0
70 Rusty Staub 2716 53 220 2936 0
71 H. Heilmann 2660 T62 262 2922 0
72 Steve Garvey 2599 70 311 2910 0
73 Babe Ruth 2873 39 28 2901 0
74 Katsuya Nomura 0 N/A 2901 2901 0
75 Frankie Frisch 2880 37 0 2880 0
76 Richie Ashburn 2574 74 305 2879 0
77 Mel Ott 2876 38 0 2876 0
78 Luke Appling 2749 47 122 2871 0
79 Ted Simmons 2472 85 393 2865 0
80 Steve Finley 2548 78 284 2832 0
81 Joe Morgan 2517 80 307 2824 0
82 Buddy Bell 2514 81 292 2806 0
83 Max Carey 2665 60 121 2786 0
84 Sadaharu Oh 0 N/A 2786 2786 0
85 Reggie Jackson 2584 72 201 2785 0
86 Jimmie Foxx 2646 65 111 2757 0
87 Rogor Connor 2467 87 257 2724 2
88 George Davis 2660 T62 19 2679 0
89 Harry Hooper 2466 88 210 2676 0
90 Fred Clarke 2672 59 0 2672 0
91 Lloyd Waner 2459 90 187 2646 0
92 Ed Delahanty 2597 71 0 2597 0
93 Ernie Banks 2583 73 0 2583 0
94 Ozzie Smith 2460 89 87 2547 0

This does not include Negro League games, nor Winter League games. But it does include MLB, affiliated and non-affiliated minors, Japan, and Korea.

And I'm sure it has some mistakes and omissions. The missing column is the total number of minor league seasons where the player's records are missing. Usually from 100+ years ago.

From what I can tell, Ichiro! is 59th in all time professional hits at the age of 34. If he plays five more years and averages about 150 hits per year he'd rank around 10th. He needs to get 1671 hits to pass Pete Rose.

[GeorgiaBird]

Major league numbers are great, of course. But other leagues have millions of wonderful stories to tell, too.

I agree with you on this, but there is just a huge inconsistency on how we deal with the Japanese league. For example, if Ichiro qualified for rookie of the year consideration his first year in the majors, then why should the hits in Japan count any more than hits other players get in the minors?

[DrungoHazewood]

I agree with you on this, but there is just a huge inconsistency on how we deal with the Japanese league. For example, if Ichiro qualified for rookie of the year consideration his first year in the majors, then why should the hits in Japan count any more than hits other players get in the minors?

They don't. As far as official records go. MLB sees MLB as the only game in the world, and everyone else as a two-bit minor league good for little besides supplying players to MLB.

I exaggerate, but only a bit.

I don't particularly care how people look at minor league numbers or Japanese numbers. I just find them fascinating. I see a huge continuum of baseball from the lowest pro levels through the majors, with few sharp dividing lines. I think the majors would do well to keep a set of major league records like they do now. But someone outside of the majors (SABR? International governing body? Someone else?) should keep professional record books that combine everything, and give credit to those whose very real accomplishments have been swept under the rug because they weren't sanctioned by MLB.

[RShack]

Don't ask me where I got this, since I clearly couldn't have put it together in the middle of the work day, but here's a list of the top players ranked by professional hits:
Very cool.

Is it easy or hard to add a column for hits-per-year?
(Ideally hits per full-time year, but I imagine that would be a major pain.)

[DrungoHazewood]

Very cool.

Is it easy or hard to add a column for hits-per-year?
(Ideally hits per full-time year, but I imagine that would be a major pain.)

Yea, actually it would. Sorry.

[Migrant Redbird]

Since the colleges function in a limited way as minor leagues, we should include them too, for those players who didn't go pro immediately after high school. :)

Sorry, but it's difficult enough to compare players of different major league eras, without lumping in minor league statistics too. Combined stats are an interesting curiosity, but little more.

[DrungoHazewood]

Since the colleges function in a limited way as minor leagues, we should include them too, for those players who didn't go pro immediately after high school. :)

Sorry, but it's difficult enough to compare players of different major league eras, without lumping in minor league statistics too. Combined stats are an interesting curiosity, but little more.

I think they're a lot more than a curiosity. There have been many, many teams and some leagues deemed "minor" that were (and are) better than some major leagues and major league teams.

I don't think a combined set of records or record book should take the place of a MLB one, but I think there should be one to supplement the MLB book.

[Sports Guy]

Ichiro a HOFer right now...Yes or no?

[mrbig1]

Ichiro a HOFer right now...Yes or no?

Rookie of the year, MVP, 7 gold gloves, 2 batting titles, all star game MVP, 7 straight seasons with 200 hits. I vote yes.

[JamesI]

Ichiro a HOFer right now...Yes or no?

once he reaches the 10 season minimum, yes.

[scOtt]

I have recently thought of starting an Ichiro - HOFer? thread. The guy definitely has the goods, but is his "split" career a hindrance? Do his Japanese League stats count on this side of the Pacific? Along with the amazing things he has done here?

I personally think he's a lock. First ballot. ;)

[DrungoHazewood]

I have recently thought of starting an Ichiro - HOFer? thread. The guy definitely has the goods, but is his "split" career a hindrance? Do his Japanese League stats count on this side of the Pacific? Along with the amazing things he has done here?

I personally think he's a lock. First ballot. ;)

I think Ichiro's situation is sort of analogous to players like George and Harry Wright, Candy Cummings, and others whose careers began before there was such a thing as major league baseball. Or, maybe like Negro Leaguers such as Larry Doby, or Roy Campanella, or maybe Satchel Paige, who were in mid-career before the color line was broken. (Edit: I originally said Minnie Minoso, but then it occurred to me that the HOF voters haven't realized his greatness yet.)

They played baseball very, very well at the highest level they were allowed to play. When it became possible to move to MLB they did. And the Hall of Fame let them in based on their overall accomplishments.

Yes, Ichiro is a little different, in that he could have come to the US if he really, really, really had wanted to. But it would have taken some steps that I'd find unreasonable - like him retiring forever from Japanese Baseball. He, or anyone in his position, was going to think it was ridiculous to give up his fame, status, salary, and livelihood in their home country and culture forever to play major league baseball.

As a player he's one of those odd Jeter-like players who are both over- and underrated at the same time. He's not often been a top hitter in the majors. But as an overall player, he's pretty great. Speed, defense, good baserunning and high percentage basestealing, and about as durable as anyone since Cal. And a completely unique, popular, groundbreaking player.

I'd certainly vote him in.

[ElToro75]

Rookie of the year, MVP, 7 gold gloves, 2 batting titles, all star game MVP, 7 straight seasons with 200 hits. I vote yes.

Let's also not forget that he has hit at a .331 average over his 8 seasons. The only recent players in that league are Tony Gwynn @ .338 and Wade Boggs @ .328

Were he to retire today he would end up ranking tied for 21st All-Time for BA.

Oh, BTW I would vote for him to get in if I had a vote.

[DrungoHazewood]

Let's also not forget that he has hit at a .331 average over his 8 seasons. The only recent players in that league are Tony Gwynn @ .338 and Wade Boggs @ .328

Were he to retire today he would end up ranking tied for 21st All-Time for BA.

Oh, BTW I would vote for him to get in if I had a vote.

That's impressive (as far as batting average only tells a part of the whole offensive story), and more so keeping in mind that the deviation between the best and worst players has steadily decreased over time. Many, or most, of the hitters ahead of Ichiro played during times when not only were they facing inferior competition, but the whole league would hit .290 or .300 or higher.

I'm very confident that Ichiro would have hit well over .400 many times had he played in the 1890s or 1920s/30s.

[ElToro75]

That's impressive (as far as batting average only tells a part of the whole offensive story), and more so keeping in mind that the deviation between the best and worst players has steadily decreased over time. Many, or most, of the hitters ahead of Ichiro played during times when not only were they facing inferior competition, but the whole league would hit .290 or .300 or higher.

I'm very confident that Ichiro would have hit well over .400 many times had he played in the 1890s or 1920s/30s.

Yeah, I should have put that "disclaimer" about batting averages :)

Never thought about him playing in those era's, but I'd have to agree that he probably would have hit .400+ during those days. Now, if only I could perfect my time machine to test that theory... :)

[Migrant Redbird]

Let's also not forget that he has hit at a .331 average over his 8 seasons. The only recent players in that league are Tony Gwynn @ .338 and Wade Boggs @ .328

Not to mention some kid named Albert Pujols who's hitting .354 in his 8th season. Over his career, he has a .333 BA.

[ElToro75]

Not to mention some kid named Albert Pujols who's hitting .354 in his 8th season. Over his career, he has a .333 BA.

Odd, he didn't show up on MLB's website (http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/historical/leaders.jsp?c_id=mlb&baseballScope=mlb&statType=1&sortByStat=AVG&timeFrame=3&timeSubFrame2=0) for historical leaders (it does state the 5,000 min. AB's are required, which Mr. Pujols fell short of). I forgot he was hitting that that high of a career clip.:o

[SpringBarb]

I was out on the West Coast last week and caught a bunch of Mariners games on tv. The announcers, etc., kept talking about Ichiro reaching 3000 hits, only occasionally mentioning that it was combined. For a while, I was trying to figure out how I hadn't heard about it before.

[BRob51]

For all of you interested in Ichiro, I suggest you read the book "Ichiro on Ichiro". The whole book is an interview of Ichiro, and I thought it was great. One of the most interesting things about Ichiro that I read was that he said he could hit 40 HR and .240 or hit 10 HR and .330 (Forgot the actual numbers, not the point though). I don't understand how that's possible, but if anyone can do it I bet it's Ichiro. Fantastic player, he'll be in Cooperstown in no time.

[Mad Mark]

Ichiro should be considered for the hall simply for proving that Japanese position players are viable in MLB.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Guess what!

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

I'm sure some people would argue it.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

Yes.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

At least before Guerrero switched leagues, but also arguable afterward.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

At least three in eight years.

5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?

Unknown.

6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

Probably not.

7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?

Not using BBRef's comps, but he hasn't been around long enough, either.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

He's getting there.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Not really.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

Possibly (I haven't looked through the list of right fielders not in).

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

ROY and MVP in '01. Top ten MVP in '04 and '07.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go to the Hall of Fame?

Eight-for-eight in All-Star games for his career.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

I think so.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

He paved the way for Japanese position players to come to the U.S. and showed they could be successful. Also helped to increase Japanese interest in American baseball.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

Haven't heard anything otherwise.

Based on this, I think you could make a pretty good argument now, and eventually he will make it.

[scOtt]

Guess what!

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

I'm sure some people would argue it.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

Yes.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

At least before Guerrero switched leagues, but also arguable afterward.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

At least three in eight years.

5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?

Unknown.

6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

Probably not.

7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?

Not using BBRef's comps, but he hasn't been around long enough, either.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

He's getting there.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Not really.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

Possibly (I haven't looked through the list of right fielders not in).

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

ROY and MVP in '01. Top ten MVP in '04 and '07.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go to the Hall of Fame?

Eight-for-eight in All-Star games for his career.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

I think so.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

He paved the way for Japanese position players to come to the U.S. and showed they could be successful. Also helped to increase Japanese interest in American baseball.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

Haven't heard anything otherwise.

Based on this, I think you could make a pretty good argument now, and eventually he will make it.
All that and he is the All-Time single season hits leader.... a record set in 1930 IIRC...

[BustaJ2632]

Drungo, are stats from leagues such as the Federal League and the Players League counted towards the officially recognized MLB totals for players from that era?

This is a very interesting project, nice job.

[DrungoHazewood]

Drungo, are stats from leagues such as the Federal League and the Players League counted towards the officially recognized MLB totals for players from that era?

This is a very interesting project, nice job.

There are quite a few leagues that MLB recognizes as "Major" leagues. Off the top of my head those are:

The NL, 1876-present.
The AL, 1901-present.
The American Association from 1882-1891
The Union Association of 1884
The Players League of 1890
The Federal League of 1914-15

This was done years ago, before there was any real research into the quality of those leagues. Some of them are almost laughable in retrospect. The Union Association was probably about the same level as today's Carolina League, or maybe the Atlantic League. The AA had some years where it was clearly inferior to the National League. The Federal League had some good players, but probably wasn't on par with the established majors.

There are other leagues, and many other teams with some claim to major league status. But they've been excluded for one reason or another. The National Association of 1871-75 was the only professional league at the time, but had some crazy scheduling and record keeping, so it's been excluded. Lots of minor league teams like the IL Orioles of the teens and 20s, and many 19th century teams, were certainly good enough to compete in the majors. In the 1800s it was commonplace for a major league team to disappear, be replaced by a minor league team, and have the minor league team finish respectably the next year in the majors.

Today's Japanese League is probably a better overall league than three or four of the leagues I listed above. If Fred Dunlap (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/dunlafr01.shtml)'s stats from the UA count, Ichiro's Japanese numbers certainly should.

[ElToro75]

Ichiro should be considered for the hall simply for proving that Japanese position players are viable in MLB.

But simply proving Japanese position players are viable in MLB doesn't, and shouldn't help his HOF candidacy. If that were the case, why not give Hideo Nomo HOF consideration for proving that Japanese pitchers are viable in MLB?

Plus, it's not like Ichiro was the first Japanese player to play here either. He didn't break any "barriers" like Jackie Robinson did (and Larry Doby in the AL).

[Mad Mark]

There are quite a few leagues that MLB recognizes as "Major" leagues...

Jon,
Isn't there some significant feeling that the PCL of the 30s and 40s was good enough to have been a third "major league?"

[DrungoHazewood]

Jon,
Isn't there some significant feeling that the PCL of the 30s and 40s was good enough to have been a third "major league?"

Not that I know of. There were PCL teams throughout the first half of the 20th century who kept players for years who were good major leaguers. But it's probably a bit of a stretch to say the league was MLB-quality.

Of course that depends on your definition of "MLB-quality."

Some more information to mull over, from a Clay Davenport article (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1330) in 2002:



Hitting Triple-A to Japan .948
Hitting Major Leagues to Japan .946
Pitching Triple-A to Japan .910
Pitching Major Leagues to Japan .960

The mean of these values is .941.

For perspective, the Federal League, compared to the AL and NL of the mid-teens, rated as .93 and .95 in its two years of existence. It is considered a major league. The American Association of the 1880s lasted nine years; compared to the NL of the same era, it rated as low as .78 (in its debut year), and eventually got as high as .94. The AA is considered a major league. The Union Association only existed for one year, 1884, and it rated at .71, about the same as the present Midwest League. It is considered, by Major League Baseball, to have been a major league (a very bad decision, in my opinion; the St. Louis team, led by Fred Dunlap, was major-league quality, but no other team in the league was.) The Players League of 1890 actually rated as stronger than the NL, with a 1.01 rating. The American League of 1901, when Nap Lajoie hit .426, has a rating of .93.

The Japanese leagues meet or beat all of them. By historical standards, the present-day Central and Pacific Leagues are fully deserving of the "major league" label.

As you can see, many of the leagues MLB rates as major league were, in fact, inferior to today's Japanese Leagues (or today's AAA for that matter). Nap Lajoie, in 1901, faced competition that was inferior to what Ichiro faced in Japan (Relative to the existing majors at the time. In a vacuum I think today's Japanese Leagues are more competitive and of higher quality than any baseball that existed up until WWII - that whole increasing quality of play over time/slope of history thing).

[mrbig1]

Just think if he played for the redsox or the yankees. How many runs would he score. I don't think 150+ is out of the question. He can steal bases and run the bases as good as any player in the game. Also has one of the best arms in baseball. He's in the HoF no doubt.

[DrungoHazewood]

Just think if he played for the redsox or the yankees. How many runs would he score. I don't think 150+ is out of the question. He can steal bases and run the bases as good as any player in the game. Also has one of the best arms in baseball. He's in the HoF no doubt.

Oh, I think it is. Only one player, Alex Rodriguez, has scored 140 runs in a season for the Yanks or Red Sox since Ichiro came into the league. Ichiro himself has only one season of more than 111 runs.

Rodriguez, the one year he scored 143 runs, got on base 42% of the time, which would be a career high for Ichiro. Most of the time he's in the .370-380 range. ARod drove himself in 48 times on homers, and he played in the middle of a 900-run lineup.

Actually, the Sox and Yanks have had a good proxy for Ichiro over the last while - Johnny Damon. Damon has more power and plate discipline than Ichiro, although he's less of a base stealer most years. But they're close. And during Damon's 6 1/2 years with the Sox and Yanks he's never scored more than 123 runs in a season.