Greene, Wilson, Renteria are out.

[blackandorange]

Reported on ESPN that Greene has been traded to STL. Doesn't say for who but a right handed bullpen arm. Certainly looks like a salary dump to me. Wonder why the O's didn't pull the trigger.


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3744063

[Sanfran327]

Thanks for the info!!

[OrioleBird79]

Reported on ESPN that Greene has been traded to STL. Doesn't say for who but a right handed bullpen arm. Certainly looks like a salary dump to me. Wonder why the O's didn't pull the trigger.


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3744063

We have been talking about the trade since late last night under another Greene thread. They are getting back two relievers. One lefty and one righty I take it. It was a salary move, but they should get back at least one decent reliever.

[Enjoy Terror]

In his defense, the thread on the main page is "Greene to Baltimore?", this thread is "Green to St Louis, not Baltimore"... so it's not really the same thread, but we would likely be having the same discussion in this thread as we would the other one.

[Greg Pappas]

I would like to point out that unless you go into the Greene to Baltimore thread, you would not be aware that he has been traded. I found out thanks to this thread. Nothing wrong at all with starting a new thread.

I am not surprised by this move, and it will be interesting to see how he responds away from Petco and with a new team.

[Enjoy Terror]

You could probably merge that other thread with this one.

[Greg Pappas]

You could probably merge that other thread with this one.

Nah, the mix wouldn't be right in my view.

[SilentJames]

Greene would not have been a very good move for us.

He would have been an expensive one-year rental. We could have tried to re-sign him, but I think we either need a cheap defensive stop-gap (Izturis) or try to find someone young that can be groomed.

Is there anyone that might be available through Rule 5?

[Basketeer]

I've never really said anything about new guys posting stuff that already exists, but come on... it's literally the top thread on the main page. Does anybody pay any attention to this whatsoever??

I don't understand why it's such a big deal, there were no other threads dedicated to this specific topic. It's always a big pissing match on here to see who can post what first, which is kinda ridiculous.

[bej6789]

Barring something unforseen, doesn't this make Cesar Izturis pretty much our opening day short stop?

[blackandorange]

Thanks Guys.

Who wants to read through 10 pages of stuff about the possible SS for the O's in 2009 and find out on page 12 that Greene actually got traded to STL.

I figure just start a new one to discuss how Greene got away. Wonder what happen? Any insider info? Sounded like a true salary dump to me. Besides starting pitching, SS is the biggest hole we have to fill. Would have been nice to see the numbers Greene would have put up in a stadium like Camden Yards.

[Satyr3206]

Greene would not have been a very good move for us.

He would have been an expensive one-year rental. We could have tried to re-sign him, but I think we either need a cheap defensive stop-gap (Izturis) or try to find someone young that can be groomed.

Is there anyone that might be available through Rule 5?

I tend to agree. While Greene would have been an upgrade I don't like the one year aspect or the salary for a player coming off a terrible year. I also think defense is very important to the pitching staff. Izturis is looking more and more like the 09 starting SS.

[Greg Pappas]

Barring something unforseen, doesn't this make Cesar Izturis pretty much our opening day short stop?

It's a possibility certainly, but far from a sure thing. We still have other options, although a trade would be the more likely route sans Izturis.

[Tx Oriole]

Instead of saying anything to a new guy why not say something to those that have to start a Tex thread? There are a lot of those.

[CrimsonTribe]

I would like to point out that unless you go into the Greene to Baltimore thread, you would not be aware that he has been traded. I found out thanks to this thread. Nothing wrong at all with starting a new thread.

I am not surprised by this move, and it will be interesting to see how he responds away from Petco and with a new team.

I also learned about it from this thread as the actual news that he got traded is somewhere in the middle of that other one.

I'd like to know what relievers they gave up. Until then we can't really evaluate whether or not we should have made a trade for Greene.

[Mackus]

I also learned about it from this thread as the actual news that he got traded is somewhere in the middle of that other one.

I'd like to know what relievers they gave up. Until then we can't really evaluate whether or not we should have made a trade for Greene.What we do know if they asked for Olson for Greene. No word either way if they would have settled for less.

I wouldn't have traded Olson for Greene.

[TheOtherRipken]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3744078&name=Neyer_Rob


This year, Greene was an utter disaster, maybe the biggest disappointment in the majors aside from Andruw Jones. Last year he was pretty good (with all those homers and doubles balanced by a .291 on-base percentage). Two years ago he was good enough to play regularly, but not by a lot. But as a 29-year-old shortstop next season with a $6.5 million salary, Greene's the sort of guy a budget-conscious team like the Cardinals can easily justify acquiring. Especially considering their shortstop last season was Cesar Izturis.
:laughlol::rofl::laughlol::rofl::laughlol:

[CrimsonTribe]

What we do know if they asked for Olson for Greene. No word either way if they would have settled for less.

I wouldn't have traded Olson for Greene.

I wouldn't have either. I just want to know if we could have offered something lesser than Olson, but better than what the Cardinals gave up. Either way, I'm not broken up about it.

[Mackus]

I just want to know if we could have offered something lesser than Olson, but better than what the Cardinals gave up.We probably won't ever know that with any degree of certainty.

[JTrea81]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3744078&name=Neyer_Rob


This year, Greene was an utter disaster, maybe the biggest disappointment in the majors aside from Andruw Jones. Last year he was pretty good (with all those homers and doubles balanced by a .291 on-base percentage). Two years ago he was good enough to play regularly, but not by a lot. But as a 29-year-old shortstop next season with a $6.5 million salary, Greene's the sort of guy a budget-conscious team like the Cardinals can easily justify acquiring. Especially considering their shortstop last season was Cesar Izturis.
:laughlol::rofl::laughlol::rofl::laughlol:

Well Izturis was a better defender than Greene this season, and they are both the same age, but if Greene can't rebound offensively, Izturis would have been a better option for them and they wouldn't have had to trade anything.

The more I think about it, the more I'd like Izturis as a SS option. I look at him as another Mike Bordick tyoe that's able to steal bases. Kind of a poor man's Omar Vizquel...

[BaltimoreTerp]

Well Izturis was a better defender than Greene this season, and they are both the same age, but if Greene can't rebound offensively, Izturis would have been a better option for them and they wouldn't have had to trade anything.

The more I think about it, the more I'd like Izturis as a SS option. I look at him as another Mike Bordick that's able to steal bases.

Put Izturis on the 'roids and he might be another Mike Bordick.

Bordick wasn't a complete Internet meme (http://forum.alsacreations.com/upload/2043-fail-camera.jpg) with the bat; he had a career 83 OPS+ compared to Izturis' 67, and he out-OBPed Izturis by 25 points and out-slugged him by 30.

[JTrea81]

Put Izturis on the 'roids and he might be another Mike Bordick.

Bordick wasn't a complete Internet meme (http://forum.alsacreations.com/upload/2043-fail-camera.jpg) with the bat; he had a career 83 OPS+ compared to Izturis' 67, and he out-OBPed Izturis by 25 points and out-slugged him by 30.

Well what I meant to say I guess is that Izturis was more of the Oakland A's Mike Bordick...

And as Bordick and Vizquel were, Izturis was one of the best defensive SS's in baseball last season.

[CrimsonTribe]

We probably won't ever know that with any degree of certainty.

But we can see what the Cardinals gave up and speculate on whether we could have done better without giving up Olson.

[SilentJames]

But it comes to this. Roch said it best:

What would you rather have, one year of Greene or two years of Izturis for the same price?

We have no one in our system knocking on the door at that posistion. So we could trade for Greene then be right back here in this position in 2010. Might as well keep our players and grab Izturis.

[Mad Mark]

But it comes to this. Roch said it best:

What would you rather have, one year of Greene or two years of Izturis for the same price?

We have no one in our system knocking on the door at that posistion. So we could trade for Greene then be right back here in this position in 2010. Might as well keep our players and grab Izturis.

Agreed. Greene is going to have some kind of "career" year in 09: either a career-saver, or a career-ender. He looks pretty determined to test free agency, so why give up anything for a one-year rental who is something of a mystery in terms of projected production?

[mikezpen]

Didn't want him anyway. Bad fit.

[McLovin]

Agreed. Greene is going to have some kind of "career" year in 09: either a career-saver, or a career-ender. He looks pretty determined to test free agency, so why give up anything for a one-year rental who is something of a mystery in terms of projected production?
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. I'm glad they didn't get him.

[JTrea81]

Izturis is terrible! I'd rather have one year at Greene at the same price just to ensure that Izturis isn't here for 2 years.

If we sign Tex, we can live with Izturis and his stellar defense at SS. The glory days of offensive SS's are over.

Mike Bordick was just like Izturis when the Orioles signed him before the 1997 season.

[dan-O]

Izturis is terrible! I'd rather have one year at Greene at the same price just to ensure that Izturis isn't here for 2 years.

Define terrible. I see him as a .250-.270 hitter who plays very good defense and can steal bases. To me, that's a decent shortstop. The era of power-shortstop is gone for the moment. I haven't checked it, but his OBP has to be better than Greene's .300 or less. Plus he's cheap. You might like to get someone a little younger with more upside and I would agree with that. But I don't think Izturis is a bad option, especially if we can get some pitching and another big bat.

[dan-O]

The glory days of offensive SS's are over.

Beat me to it, but yeah I think this is becoming more and more apparent.

[LookinUp]

Izturis had a .319 OBP last year and an OPS of about .628.

[edit: wrong Izturis. I've corrected the numbers now.]

[dan-O]

Izturis had a .329 OBP last year and an OPS of about .700.

Like I said, it was above .300! :rofl:

I still don't think he'd be a detriment to the team, though.

[Dirtyburnie]

Let's remember, this deal is just being reported nothing is offical. It porbably is but hey, we can have hope:laughlol:

[LookinUp]

He may not be a detriment, but he's not the answer either. I don't mind a stop gap this year, but eventually we need to be bold with SS.

Alternatively, Greene may have been $6.5m and 1-2 minor leaguers wasted but there was at least a chance that he could have been our answer for the next 4 years. Frankly, I'm not upset we didn't get him. I only wanted Greene if he came extremely cheap...like McCrory and Waters or something comparable.

[hoosiers]

I would prefer Greene to Izturis, but we do not know the prospect cost. Maybe we could pick up Greene for nothing next offseason.

[dan-O]

According to MLBTR, Tigers just acquired Jack Wilson. Renteria seems to be officially signed with the Giants. And Greene is reportedly going to St. Louis.

SS options are starting to thin quickly, although I'm not sure any of these guys are great fits for the O's. But you could certainly argue either way.

[TonySoprano]

It seems to be the week for shortstop roulette on the Hot Stove, and the latest is that the Pirates have sent Jack Wilson to the Tigers.

The teams had been in discussions for a while, but according to a person familiar with the deal, it is done. It's unclear what the Pirates get in return. source - NJ Star Ledger (http://www.nj.com/yankees/index.ssf/2008/12/detroit_tigers_acquire_ss_jack.html)

[RVAbird]

Renteria would have been awful, Wilson would have been bad too. I wanted to take a flyer on Greene but, oh well, that's not the end of the world.

It just makes more sense to obtain Cedeno in any trade with the Cubs now.

[JTrea81]

It's up to the Dodgers and Orioles to fight over Izturis, as Furcal will likely go to the A's...

[Pedro Cerrano]

Go get Furcal!!!!!

[rooter]

And so it begins...

[BRob51]

Go get Hu!!!

[PaulFolk]

It's up to the Dodgers and Orioles to fight over Izturis, as Furcal will likely go to the A's...
Orlando Cabrera is still out there too, I believe. I don't want the O's to sign him, but perhaps the Dodgers will.

[dan-O]

Go get Furcal!!!!!

I haven't completely given up hope on Furcal, but he probably is going to the A's. Anything can happen, though.

[JTrea81]

Orlando Cabrera is still out there too, I believe. I don't want the O's to sign him, but perhaps the Dodgers will.

Cabrera was offered arbitration correct? If so no way do I want to give up a draft pick for him. And I doubt the Dodgers want to give up a first round draft pick as well...

[NewMarketSean]

Izturis is as good as signed IMO. He will be an Oriole.

[ChaosLex]

Fahey is our starting SS next year. Book it!

[DrungoHazewood]

Nioka is still out there. And there are always guys in the Eddy Garabito mold who'll outplay last year's Seven Dwarfs and can be had for a bag of used baseballs.

[vab]

What is it, acquire a shortstop day? I'm not really concerned with anything other than acquiring and developing pitching right now. None of this other stuff matters until that gets done so give me the best fielding shortstop and I don't care if he can't hit water if he fell out of a boat.

[BRob51]

Nioka is still out there. And there are always guys in the Eddy Garabito mold who'll outplay last year's Seven Dwarfs and can be had for a bag of used baseballs.

I believe Tomohiro Nioka got traded to from the Giants and signed an extension with his new team (the Hawks?).

EDIT: He got traded to Nippon Ham according to NPBTracker

[JTrea81]

The Orioles need to go after Arias. He's the Rangers' utility player right now and is an excellent defensive SS with good potential with the bat.

[dan-O]

The Orioles need to go after Arias. He's the Rangers' utility player right now and is an excellent defensive SS with good potential with the bat.

I'll buy that. He was pretty productive in 110 ABs last season. 24 years old.

[Sports Guy]

I am glad Wilson and Renteria aren't out there anymore.

Now, let's hope OCab and Furcal sign elsewhere.

Cedeno, Hu, Wood, Brignac, et al...those should be our targets.

[OrioleMagic]

The Orioles need to go after Arias. He's the Rangers' utility player right now and is an excellent defensive SS with good potential with the bat.

I too would like to see this...

[JTrea81]

I would deal Olson or Liz for Arias straight up, but would also be willing to deal Bergesen or Hernandez for him.

BTW this is starting to remind me of drafting in fantasy baseball when there is a run on SS's. Who says MLB isn't like fantasy baseball? :laughlol:

[brvn52]

Really bummed about this. I really thought he'd be a guy we could deal for a sign to a reasonable 3/4 year deal. He could hold us over until one of our MiL SS's or a SS that we draft in the future were ready.

I'd really go hard after Furcal. I think I'd offer him 3/39 with a vesting option to make it 4/52 to start out. I'm really, really hesitant about guaranteeing him a 4th year but I'd do just about anything possible to get him in Baltimore for the next 3 years.

One other question, now, is how much harder does this cause us to go after a guy like Hardy. Is MacPhail willing to part with one of the big 3? If I were him I'd say no. Hold onto the pitching, sign Izturis for a year, and draft a guy like Grant Green. Go into next off-season looking for a veteran stop-gap SS for 1-2 years if we draft Green and if not, look for a long-term solution.

I really feel like the O's are backed into a corner. The SS's are dropping like flies and the O's are gonna have to pay a heavy price - either in money or prospects - to get a legitimate SS for the next 3+ years.

[Mackus]

I'd really go hard after Furcal. I think I'd offer him 3/39 with a vesting option to make it 4/52 to start out. I'm really, really hesitant about guaranteeing him a 4th year but I'd do just about anything possible to get him in Baltimore for the next 3 years. :puke:
I'd much rather have the same group of SS we had last year than sign Furcal to that deal.

[ChaosLex]

I am glad Wilson and Renteria aren't out there anymore.

Now, let's hope OCab and Furcal sign elsewhere.

Cedeno, Hu, Wood, Brignac, et al...those should be our targets.

I will be beyond p.o.ed if we sign OCab. Especially if we miss out on Tex and AJ. I can deal with losing a 2nd round draft pick if it means we obtain Tex or AJ, but OCab!? :angryfire:

[Enjoy Terror]

There's nothing that says we need a legitimate starter at shortstop this year. We aren't having any intention of contending in 2009, not with the rotation the way it is. If a shortstop is the last piece of the puzzle we need by the time we are ready to play ball, then it will be a lot easier to spend serious money or trade prospects to get one.

Right now, the pool for quality shortstops kinda sucks so why does everyone think we need to go off the deep end for one immediately this year? Izturis is a reasonable stopgap for the near future and will placehold until we a) draft one or b) find better options in the next couple free agency classes.

[clapdiddy]

What about Luke Scott for Brandon Wood and Sean Rodriguez?

[tropicos]

There's nothing that says we need a legitimate starter at shortstop this year. We aren't having any intention of contending in 2009, not with the rotation the way it is. If a shortstop is the last piece of the puzzle we need by the time we are ready to play ball, then it will be a lot easier to spend serious money or trade prospects to get one.

Right now, the pool for quality shortstops kinda sucks so why does everyone think we need to go off the deep end for one immediately this year? Izturis is a reasonable stopgap for the near future and will placehold until we a) draft one or b) find better options in the next couple free agency classes.

Agreed. I understand the frustration with the SS position, but it really needs to be pointed out that we aren't contending next year. There is no imminence on having a good SS next year. Some people acted as if it was imperative we give up prospects for 1 year of Greene, and from my pov, that logic is flawed. While I don't want the O's to have the same horrendous SS situation as they did last year, I'm not of the opinion it needs to be solved right now. We need to look towards 2010 or 2011 or beyond. Obviously Izturis is NOT the plan for those years.

[OsandBohs11]

FWIW...mlbtraderumors is now saying the Wilson deal has not happened.

[Sports Guy]

But it comes to this. Roch said it best:

What would you rather have, one year of Greene or two years of Izturis for the same price?

We have no one in our system knocking on the door at that posistion. So we could trade for Greene then be right back here in this position in 2010. Might as well keep our players and grab Izturis.

Neither...

[allstar1579]

Neither...

I'll take 6 years of Green from USC instead thanks ;)

[NJBird]

Interesting aspect to me is the Cardinals feel the need to trade 2 pitchers for one year of Greene's relatively high salary instead of keeping Itzuris. So the Cardinals feel they are upgrading while we are kind of resigning oursleves that Itzuris is an upgrade over last year's SS which might be true but does not say much on creating a winning team with + players.

[allstar1579]

Interesting aspect to me is the Cardinals feel the need to trade 2 pitchers for one year of Greene's relatively high salary instead of keeping Itzuris. So the Cardinals feel they are upgrading while we are kind of resigning oursleves that Itzuris is an upgrade over last year's SS which might be true but does not say much on creating a winning team with + players.

STL needs offense to surround Pujols, and the defensive step down isn't THAT much worse for them since Greene is an above average SS. It's a good gamble for them if they have a chance to compete banking on Greene returning to 27HR status, and some possible protection in the order somewhere, especially if they can drop him next year if it doesn't work out.

[markpolis]

What about Luke Scott for Brandon Wood and Sean Rodriguez?

Do you honestly think the Angels would trade Wood AND Rodriguez for Luke Scott? Luke Scott is not the answer the Angels are looking for. More than likely, Manny Ramirez will be patrolling LF for the Angels next season.

[markpolis]

I'll take 6 years of Green from USC instead thanks ;)

Agreed. Too bad he won't be available when we select at #5. :(

[clapdiddy]

Do you honestly think the Angels would trade Wood AND Rodriguez for Luke Scott? Luke Scott is not the answer the Angels are looking for. More than likely, Manny Ramirez will be patrolling LF for the Angels next season.
Of course, I was implying if Manny was not signed.

Would it be that ridiculous to ask for those two guys? Neither one of them are going to take over for Aybar or Kendrick any time soon.

[allstar1579]

Agreed. Too bad he won't be available when we select at #5. :(

I know...I just keep crossing my fingers that some of these young pitchers really step up and have amazing years. I can see Strasburg and Crow going before him, now we just need 2 other guys to be more appealing than Green. Although I do not see him slipping past SD at #3.

Maybe Miclat will have a breakout type year and really enter the prospect discussion :)

[tropicos]

Of course, I was implying if Manny was not signed.

Would it be that ridiculous to ask for those two guys? Neither one of them are going to take over for Aybar or Kendrick any time soon.

Aren't the Angels looking at Wood as becoming a 3B instead of a SS?

[allstar1579]

Yeah, that would be like the O's trading Ray and Arretta for Vasquez when they can just go out and sign Burnett.

Well with the economic situation the way it is, you could sign Manny for $20 mil for a couple years, or you could have Scott for $1mil per year for 3 more years, and the production won't be TOO far off, Manny will start to decline and settle into the mid 20's HR, and Scott should be around there too, with a worse avg. At least Scott will attempt to play defense.

Gotta save money where you can, especially if you are trying to build a rotation with Sabathia, Lackey, and Santana. Besides if they go in on Peavy, they will need to ship some MINF prospects to SD.

[higgybaby]

I would do just about anything for to see us get Brandon Wood.

[dan-O]

Did this thread get merged? Suddenly I am no longer the creator of this thread. Wah wuh, dan-O.

[rochester]

Greene would not have been a very good move for us.

He would have been an expensive one-year rental. We could have tried to re-sign him, but I think we either need a cheap defensive stop-gap (Izturis) or try to find someone young that can be groomed.

Is there anyone that might be available through Rule 5?

Plus, a bunch of that $6.5MM could be relegated to Tex!!:rofl:

sorry couldn't resist..but true:scratchchinhmm:

[Bart in LA]

Maybe I am late to the party on this, but the reports of Renteria's contact with the Giants blow me away:

"Edgar Renteria became the second free agent to join the San Francisco Giants in as many days, receiving an $18.5 million, two-year contract to replace 11-time Gold Glove shortstop Omar Vizquel. 'He is a complete player on both sides of the ball, a clutch performer and a winner,' Giants general manager Brian Sabean said in a statement Thursday announcing the deal. ... Renteria, a 13-year big league veteran, will be looking to have a better year in 2009. He batted .270 with 10 homers and 55 RBIs this past season for the Tigers, who after the year declined their $11 million option for Renteria and gave him a $3 million buyout."

Implications --

What will Furcal really get?
Isn't Renteria a guy with major signs of being washed up?
Would OH folks have wanted to solve the O's SS crisis at that price (no way, right)?
Does that make the concerns about Greene's $6.5 MM deal seem nonsensical at this point?
If Itsuris is the target, what is HE going to cost now?
Should we pursue Emanuel Burriss of the Giants who now drops down the food chain?
Is Brian Sabean just an idiot (Zito, etc.)?

[FarEastO'sFan]

[QUOTE=Bart Pachino;1537227]Maybe I am late to the party on this, but the reports of Renteria's contact with the Giants blow me away:

"Edgar Renteria became the second free agent to join the San Francisco Giants in as many days, receiving an $18.5 million, two-year contract to replace 11-time Gold Glove shortstop Omar Vizquel. 'He is a complete player on both sides of the ball, a clutch performer and a winner,' Giants general manager Brian Sabean said in a statement Thursday announcing the deal. ... Renteria, a 13-year big league veteran, will be looking to have a better year in 2009. He batted .270 with 10 homers and 55 RBIs this past season for the Tigers, who after the year declined their $11 million option for Renteria and gave him a $3 million buyout."

Implications --

Should we pursue Emanuel Burriss of the Giants who now drops down the food chain?

Young, and reported as talented. That is what we want, right? Does he project as a long term short stop? What would it take to trade for him?

(First post, followed the O's for years on OH living in Asia.)

[BaltimoreTerp]

Maybe I am late to the party on this, but the reports of Renteria's contact with the Giants blow me away:

"Edgar Renteria became the second free agent to join the San Francisco Giants in as many days, receiving an $18.5 million, two-year contract to replace 11-time Gold Glove shortstop Omar Vizquel. 'He is a complete player on both sides of the ball, a clutch performer and a winner,' Giants general manager Brian Sabean said in a statement Thursday announcing the deal. ... Renteria, a 13-year big league veteran, will be looking to have a better year in 2009. He batted .270 with 10 homers and 55 RBIs this past season for the Tigers, who after the year declined their $11 million option for Renteria and gave him a $3 million buyout."

Implications --

What will Furcal really get?
Isn't Renteria a guy with major signs of being washed up?
Would OH folks have wanted to solve the O's SS crisis at that price (no way, right)?
Does that make the concerns about Greene's $6.5 MM deal seem nonsensical at this point?
If Itsuris is the target, what is HE going to cost now?
Should we pursue Emanuel Burriss of the Giants who now drops down the food chain?
Is Brian Sabean just an idiot (Zito, etc.)?

I'd definitely take a look at Burriss, but even though he does seem to get on-base a little and can steal a base, he better have a really good glove because he has no power at all. I wouldn't trade much of anything for him.

And yes, I think it's fairly well-established that Brian Sabean is an idiot.

[bluedog]

Greene would not have been a very good move for us.

He would have been an expensive one-year rental. We could have tried to re-sign him, but I think we either need a cheap defensive stop-gap (Izturis) or try to find someone young that can be groomed.

Is there anyone that might be available through Rule 5?

Daniel Mayora from Colorado plays both 2b and SS and might be a lovely acquisition since he potentially could be our Utility infielder even if he can't hold the starting SS job.

[ACE]

Should we pursue Emanuel Burriss of the Giants who now drops down the food chain?

Young, and reported as talented. That is what we want, right? Does he project as a long term short stop? What would it take to trade for him?

(First post, followed the O's for years on OH living in Asia.)

welcome!

I'd imagine this will lead to a flood of Burriss threads.

Predictions-
- At one point, Luke Scott or David Hernandez will be mentioned in a trade for Burriss.

- Matt Cain's name will also come up in a package scenario.

- Burriss being from DC (He's local!) will come into play but only with us.

[orioles327]

Well with the economic situation the way it is, you could sign Manny for $20 mil for a couple years, or you could have Scott for $1mil per year for 3 more years, and the production won't be TOO far off, Manny will start to decline and settle into the mid 20's HR, and Scott should be around there too, with a worse avg. At least Scott will attempt to play defense.

Gotta save money where you can, especially if you are trying to build a rotation with Sabathia, Lackey, and Santana. Besides if they go in on Peavy, they will need to ship some MINF prospects to SD.

If you actually think Scott will only get 1 million dollars a year over the next 3 years, you dont understand the the abritration process. If you think Manny settle into the mid 20's HR in the next two years, you are are delusional. Luke Scott is a defensive liability in Left field also.

[BaltimoreTerp]

If you actually think Scott will only get 1 million dollars a year over the next 3 years, you dont understand the the abritration process. If you think Manny settle into the mid 20's HR in the next two years, you are are delusional. Luke Scott is a defensive liability in Left field also.

Two out of three isn't bad.

Scott isn't a Gold Glover (then again, with the way they give out Gold Gloves sometimes...), but he's good enough that he doesn't have to be replaced.

[ACE]

If you actually think Scott will only get 1 million dollars a year over the next 3 years, you dont understand the the abritration process. If you think Manny settle into the mid 20's HR in the next two years, you are are delusional. Luke Scott is a defensive liability in Left field also.

This is a common misconception about Scott.

He was actually the 2nd ranked LF in terms of +/-. He has admittedly so less than stellar range (his rzr was pretty low) but lets not act like Luke is playing with the glove on the wrong hand out there.

[wickedwitch]

Should we pursue Emanuel Burriss of the Giants who now drops down the food chain?

Young, and reported as talented. That is what we want, right? Does he project as a long term short stop? What would it take to trade for him?


He needs work at SS, but he showed great improvements through last season. He should be at least average on defense.

[allstar1579]

If you actually think Scott will only get 1 million dollars a year over the next 3 years, you dont understand the the abritration process. If you think Manny settle into the mid 20's HR in the next two years, you are are delusional. Luke Scott is a defensive liability in Left field also.

I was averaging Scott's value over his 6 years. He's made less than $1 mil for 3 years and going into arb will get somewhere in the $2-4 mil range depending on this economic downturn. (arbitration rates are based on comps in the market and the market is about to bottom out, so people going into arbitration are better served to lock up deals now)

And yes, I am willing to bet over the next 2-3 years Manny's numbers fall off dramatically based on his age, the average declining age for players, the number of years in the league, and the fact that he has not been DHing much.

[allstar1579]

This is a common misconception about Scott.

He was actually the 2nd ranked LF in terms of +/-. He has admittedly so less than stellar range (his rzr was pretty low) but lets not act like Luke is playing with the glove on the wrong hand out there.

True but if you are only getting to half of the balls a normal LF gets to and they are falling in for hits, you aren't giving up unearned runs, but you are are giving up more earned runs than a normal LF would give up in additional errors.

[Fan4Life]

How is Wilson out?

[Frobby]

True but if you are only getting to half of the balls a normal LF gets to and they are falling in for hits, you aren't giving up unearned runs, but you are are giving up more earned runs than a normal LF would give up in additional errors.

Yes, but the stats don't show his range to be that bad. Personally I thought he played better as the year went along. He seemed tentative coming in on balls early in the season, but it was less of a problem later on. Maybe a function of switching from RF to LF and making the adjustment?

[SBOriole]

How is Wilson out?

He's not. The talks between the Bucs and the Tigers are "getting stronger" but he is still out there. LAD is interested it seems but talks do not seem to be as strong. MLBTR

[Fan4Life]

He's not. The talks between the Bucs and the Tigers are "getting stronger" but he is still out there. LAD is interested it seems but talks do not seem to be as strong. MLBTR

OK, But read the thread title.

[SBOriole]

OK, But read the thread title.

No, I understand you. At the time of the OP, the rumor was Wilson was a done deal. Things have changed now, like they always do.:rolleyestf:

[Fan4Life]

No, I understand you. At the time of the OP, the rumor was Wilson was a done deal. Things have changed now, like they always do.:rolleyestf:

Thanks. Yes it does seem to change daily.....

[SBOriole]

Thanks. Yes it does seem to change daily.....

No prob. But with the speculation, IMO, I do think he will go to the Tigers. In which chase, would make the market thiner and hopefully AM is looking at Izturis or a trade. I would be happy with Izturis to start with and hope that if nothing can be done by OD, we make a decent trade during the season when our players start to show what they can give us ie. those we deem expendable.

[Fan4Life]

No prob. But with the speculation, IMO, I do think he will go to the Tigers. In which chase, would make the market thiner and hopefully AM is looking at Izturis or a trade. I would be happy with Izturis to start with and hope that if nothing can be done by OD, we make a decent trade during the season when our players start to show what they can give us ie. those we deem expendable.

It'll be interesting to see which direction we take this offseason. Sign a couple high target FA, perhaps trading for a few other players, or, not dong much of anything and likely trading most of the assets we have and try to make a splash in 2011. In either case, I don't see filling the SS position as a critical need. If we find a deal that works great, but there doesn't seem to be many long term options at this point.

[allstar1579]

Yes, but the stats don't show his range to be that bad. Personally I thought he played better as the year went along. He seemed tentative coming in on balls early in the season, but it was less of a problem later on. Maybe a function of switching from RF to LF and making the adjustment?

I agree with you, my season tix are in LF and I noticed it from April to August. I think Camden Yards has a LF that just takes a bit to get used to. The ball gets crushed there and figuring out how deep to play and when to come in takes a good bit of that away.

I did notice however that he did not play balls hit in front of him particularly well, like he just had trouble picking up the ball on line drives, that coupled with how far off the line Dave played him added to quite a few balls dropping into the corner. I never understood why he plays him so far towards CF with Jones and Markakis both having great range, it would be easier to play him closer to the line giving him better position.

[SBOriole]

It'll be interesting to see which direction we take this offseason. Sign a couple high target FA, perhaps trading for a few other players, or, not dong much of anything and likely trading most of the assets we have and try to make a splash in 2011. In either case, I don't see filling the SS position as a critical need. If we find a deal that works great, but there doesn't seem to be many long term options at this point.

I think if we sign someone to play this year within the next few weeks, potentially during the winter meetings, it allows for a full throttle FA or trade offseason. Putting someone in SS that can give us defense and a bat that can have production here and there, then the 100% pain gets alleviated to possibly 65% or better, for 2009. Its just one hole that needs a warm body so that the FO can move on. The only reason, IMO, that it is becoming a high target right now is because of the potential for the better, ha better:laughlol:, options being taken faster than some thought.

[clapdiddy]

I still say...watch out for Furcal.

I'm thinking that he may actually be our "big" signing this offseason.

I don't believe that we have a chance at Burnett or Tex.

[Elon Os Fan]

I still say...watch out for Furcal.

I'm thinking that he may actually be our "big" signing this offseason.

I don't believe that we have a chance at Burnett or Tex.

What if we signed all three. Furcal Burnett and Tex.

Put them all together in the winter meetings and sell the the team.

Extend BRob

Extend Markakis

Trade Scott and Olson for Pie Cedeno and Marshall

2B Roberts
SS Furcal
RF Markakis
1B Teixeria
DH Huff
CF Jones
C Wieters
3B Mora
LF Pie


Furcal makes our team look real nice...Top of the order speed....to go along w/ Kakes Tex Huff Jones Wieters.....looks nice Peter....doesnt it?

[clapdiddy]

What if we signed all three. Furcal Burnett and Tex.

Put them all together in the winter meetings and sell the the team.

Extend BRob

Extend Markakis

Trade Scott and Olson for Pie Cedeno and Marshall

2B Roberts
SS Furcal
RF Markakis
1B Teixeria
DH Huff
CF Jones
C Wieters
3B Mora
LF Pie


Furcal makes our team look real nice...Top of the order speed....to go along w/ Kakes Tex Huff Jones Wieters.....looks nice Peter....doesnt it?

I would certainly take that lineup. Furcal scares me, though. I think he's a very good player when healthy, but I think he's going to wind up being on the DL a few times.

[Elon Os Fan]

Thats why you get Cedeno from the Cubs

[PHRESH]

We should just trade for Brandon Wood.

[dan-O]

No, I understand you. At the time of the OP, the rumor was Wilson was a done deal. Things have changed now, like they always do.:rolleyestf:

I started the thread - at the time, MLBTR had Wilson going to the Tigers and it sounded pretty definite. Things have backed off since then, so please disregard.

[Frobby]

So who is still in the market for a SS besides us? OCab is still out there, and if there's nobody else in need of a starting SS, maybe he can be had for millions less than previously thought, and for a much shorter period of time. I had ruled him out because he'd want too many years and be too expensive, but maybe he'll have to come down the way Huff did when we signed him.

[Sports Guy]

So who is still in the market for a SS besides us? OCab is still out there, and if there's nobody else in need of a starting SS, maybe he can be had for millions less than previously thought, and for a much shorter period of time. I had ruled him out because he'd want too many years and be too expensive, but maybe he'll have to come down the way Huff did when we signed him.

The Dodgers, Twins and Royals off the top of my head.

Maybe Toronto?

[ChaosLex]

So who is still in the market for a SS besides us? OCab is still out there, and if there's nobody else in need of a starting SS, maybe he can be had for millions less than previously thought, and for a much shorter period of time. I had ruled him out because he'd want too many years and be too expensive, but maybe he'll have to come down the way Huff did when we signed him.

I'd risk giving up a 2nd round draft pick for Teixeira or Burnett. No way in hell I give up a high draft pick for OCab.

[Frobby]

I'd risk giving up a 2nd round draft pick for Teixeira or Burnett. No way in hell I give up a high draft pick for OCab.

I hadn't realized that the White Sox had offered him arbitration. Excellent point.