Eaton's spring debut

[Frobby]

Per Roch:


Adam Eaton also threw nine pitches in the third inning, six for strikes.

That makes 30 pitches and 24 strikes. He's allowed two runs and four hits, walked none and struck out one.

Talk about pounding the strike zone. He had a rough first inning but not a bad first outing I'd say. Too soon to cut him I guess.

[adamwolff11]

I guess if we have to put arms that really aren't that great into the rotation, they might as well be arms that will at least give our defense a chance.

[NewMarketSean]

Per Roch:



Talk about pounding the strike zone. He had a rough first inning but not a bad first outing I'd say. Too soon to cut him I guess.

He's going to make the rotation.

[Capn Vivi]

I won't be too upset if he makes the rotation. We're hoping that Rich Hill returns to form aren't we? Might as well wish the same for Eaton.

[JTrea81]

He's going to make the rotation.

Unfortunately. :(

[ChaosLex]

I won't be too upset if he makes the rotation. We're hoping that Rich Hill returns to form aren't we? Might as well wish the same for Eaton.

Difference is, Hill has upside. Eaton... not so much. ;)

[Aglets]

I just posted on the GameDay thread my projected starting rotation for Opening Day:

Guthrie
Uehara
Penn
Bergesen
Eaton

Eaton is the bubble guy. I think if Baez really outperforms him he'll get the spot; otherwise he's gone. I also think Eaton might go if Hill gets healthy. Although I confess it's perhaps more likely that they would just demote BB and give his spot to Eaton.......but I hope that doesn't happen.

[Capn Vivi]

Difference is, Hill has upside. Eaton... not so much. ;)

Well, Hill is only 2 1/2 years younger than Eaton, at one point, what you see with Hill is going to be what you get.

I'd be content if he can contribute at all.

[MCL1021]

I guess we have to put someone in the rotation that is healthy since half of the other potential guys are all banged up right now....:rolleyes:

[Sports Guy]

Per Roch:



Talk about pounding the strike zone. He had a rough first inning but not a bad first outing I'd say. Too soon to cut him I guess.

Its never too soon to cut a guy who has no business on the team.

[jerios55]

Per Roch:



Talk about pounding the strike zone. He had a rough first inning but not a bad first outing I'd say. Too soon to cut him I guess.

2 runs and 4 hits in the first inning and it still only took 12 pitches. That's crazy.

[Camden_yardbird]

Its never too soon to cut a guy who has no business on the team.

Yes it can be too soon especially when that guy could prove to be a solid rotation piece.

Eaton has a lifetime record above .500 and an ERA below 5. He has almost twice as many strikeouts as walks.

That means a lot to a rotation that otherwise has only one pitcher with more than one season of major league experience.

[NewMarketSean]

Its never too soon to cut a guy who has no business on the team.

Unless you're "forcing" some younger guys into the rotation, guys like Eaton and Baez are going to get their chances this spring to make the rotation with a bunch of guys pulling up lame.

[LookitsPuck]

Unless you're "forcing" some younger guys into the rotation, guys like Eaton and Baez are going to get their chances this spring to make the rotation with a bunch of guys pulling up lame.

Baez = pulling up lame

How long has it been since he's been effective?
How long has it been since he's been an effective starter?

[Three Run Homer]

Eaton strikes me as no better than Hendrickson as an option for the rotation. The best that you can say about either is that both have been in the majors for several seasons.

Even in his so-called "good" years, Eaton never got his ERA below 4.00 despite pitching in a great pitchers' park in San Diego, and he has been downright awful for the last three seasons--poor ERAs, awful peripherals.

He really should be seen as no more than a fallback option in case not enough of the younger pitchers (including Penn, Liz, Bergesen, Hill) are healthy and pitch reasonably well this spring.

Let's put it this way: if Adam Eaton makes the opening rotation, it will be a sign that a lot of things went wrong for the O's young pitchers this spring.

[BillySmith]

Eaton said he's confident that if he continues to throw strikes, he will win a place in the Opening Day starting rotation.

"I would think so,'' he said. "All the signs I'm getting are that there is a spot for me. That feels good. Whether it's one to five (in the rotation), I don't care as long as I'm out there."


Crazy, crazy, crazy. He woulda thunkit when camp opened?

[NewMarketSean]

Baez = pulling up lame

How long has it been since he's been effective?
How long has it been since he's been an effective starter?

It doesn't matter. If he's healthy he's going to be given more than a chance.

[BillySmith]

Over in the game thread they're reporting Penn has given up 7 hits and a walk in 2.1 innings. Just FYI as it relates to Eaton.

[RZNJ]

My current projection for the rotation to open the season.

Guthrie
Uehara
Eaton
Hendrickson (until Hill is ready)
Bass

Lets face it. They got Eaton to fill a spot in the rotation and he'll do enough to nail it down. Penn is pitching himself out of a spot and it's even 50/50 if he'll do enough to get a spot in the pen. The O's see Hendrickson as a swing guy to he's the perfect guy in their eyes to hold a spot until Hill is ready. The fifth spot is wide open. I could see Pauley, Bass, Bergesen, Waters, or Penn taking it and I'd rank them about the same right now. I think Bass might steal it away from Pauley.

[NewMarketSean]

My current projection for the rotation to open the season.

Guthrie
Uehara
Eaton
Hendrickson (until Hill is ready)
Bass

Lets face it. They got Eaton to fill a spot in the rotation and he'll do enough to nail it down. Penn is pitching himself out of a spot and it's even 50/50 if he'll do enough to get a spot in the pen. The O's see Hendrickson as a swing guy to he's the perfect guy in their eyes to hold a spot until Hill is ready. The fifth spot is wide open. I could see Pauley, Bass, Bergesen, Waters, or Penn taking it and I'd rank them about the same right now. I think Bass might steal it away from Pauley.

Isn't Hendrickson kind of banged up too?

[Pedro Cerrano]

Let's not sign Pedro Martinez, though (rolls eyes).

[BillySmith]

Penn goes three, giving up 7 hits, a walk, 2 earned runs, and 2 k's. Awesome. :rolleyes:

[MCL1021]

My current projection for the rotation to open the season.

Guthrie
Uehara
Eaton
Hendrickson (until Hill is ready)
Bass

Lets face it. They got Eaton to fill a spot in the rotation and he'll do enough to nail it down. Penn is pitching himself out of a spot and it's even 50/50 if he'll do enough to get a spot in the pen. The O's see Hendrickson as a swing guy to he's the perfect guy in their eyes to hold a spot until Hill is ready. The fifth spot is wide open. I could see Pauley, Bass, Bergesen, Waters, or Penn taking it and I'd rank them about the same right now. I think Bass might steal it away from Pauley.

I hope somehow Bergesen can get that 5th spot and not Bass or Pauley...

[NewMarketSean]

I hope somehow Bergesen can get that 5th spot and not Bass or Pauley...

I think the guys without options are going to get the BOTD to start the year.

[NCRaven]

Eaton is no worse than Pauley, Bass, Penn, Albers, etc.. All of them are merely placeholders until Tillman, Arrieta, Matusz, Erbe, and Bergesen are ready. So who cares? In Pauley's, Bass's and Penn's case youth is no virtue if they can't pitch well enough to beat out the Eaton's of the world. Albers and Patton aren't healthy enough to hold down a rotation spot, so Eaton isn't taking anything from either of them. Eaton is a healthy, major league arm. I'll say it again. This season isn't about this season. It's about getting more experience, at whatever level it comes at for:

Jones, Pie, Wieters, Tillman, Arrieta, Matusz, Erbe, Bergesen, Hernnandez, Spoone, Liz, Britton, Butler, Bundy, Drake, Beato, Snyder, Rowell, Hoes, Avery, Miclat, etc.. They are the guys that this team is about. What happens with Eaton, Bass, Penn (though I've been a booster), Scott and Moore, is relatively meaningless.

[Sports Guy]

Eaton said he's confident that if he continues to throw strikes, he will win a place in the Opening Day starting rotation.

"I would think so,'' he said. "All the signs I'm getting are that there is a spot for me. That feels good. Whether it's one to five (in the rotation), I don't care as long as I'm out there."


Crazy, crazy, crazy. He woulda thunkit when camp opened?

As soon as Eaton signed, he was a favorite to get one of the rotation spots...That's why some of us were pissed to begin with.

[NewMarketSean]

As soon as Eaton signed, he was a favorite to get one of the rotation spots...That's why some of us were pissed to begin with.

We always knew MacPhail was eyeing another vet SP. Maybe he thought they might be able to get away with a Bass, Waters, Pauley or Hennessey taking that spot, but after some of those guys went down -- or didn't perform well -- he knew he had to go out and get that guy.

At least Eaton is on a MiL contract and we aren't on the hook for any serious money or years. I'd rather have Eaton as we have him that what Looper wanted from us.

[BaltimoreTerp]

As soon as Eaton signed, he was a favorite to get one of the rotation spots...That's why some of us were pissed to begin with.

They all laughed at us...they all wondered "What's the big deal? He's not going to earn a spot!"

Well...?

[wildcard]

I hope they make Eaton earn it. He certainly did not earn it today. 2 ER in 3 IP is a 6.00 ERA. That is about the norm for him and it should not be enough to win a spot. If he outpitches the other candidates then fine, but make him earn it.

Right now I have Bergesen, Liz, Baez and Bass ahead of him and by opening day I think Hill will be ahead of him also.

[Moose Milligan]

As soon as Eaton signed, he was a favorite to get one of the rotation spots...That's why some of us were pissed to begin with.

Yeah, but who are we kidding here? Isn't it still painfully obvious that we're in a holding pattern until Matusz, Arrieta and Tillman are ready?

[BaltimoreTerp]

Yeah, but who are we kidding here? Isn't it still painfully obvious that we're in a holding pattern until Matusz, Arrieta and Tillman are ready?

Yeah. And while I'm at it, I'm not going to my job interview today because I'm holding tonight's winning lottery ticket ;)

[Moose Milligan]

Yeah. And while I'm at it, I'm not going to my job interview today because I'm holding tonight's winning lottery ticket ;)

Well the Orioles look like they're holding three winning lottery tix.

;)

Nah, point made. IMO though, typical OH much ado about nothing...just waiting for our Big 3.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Well the Orioles look like they're holding three winning lottery tix.

;)

Nah, point made. IMO though, typical OH much ado about nothing...just waiting for our Big 3.

What we need to be doing, though, is allowing any of our young pitchers that we believe are ready show it at the major-league level. It's not just "the big three" (especially since, as the other thread is pointing out, we've had "big threes" in the past), it's Bergesen and Penn and others. Right now it appears that Penn is in, and there's a bunch of hurt guys, but if Bergesen pitches like he has all spring training and gets bumped for Adam Eaton, there should be a LOT of pissed-off fans.

[Enjoy Terror]

Per Roch:



Talk about pounding the strike zone. He had a rough first inning but not a bad first outing I'd say. Too soon to cut him I guess.

Lifetimes statistics do not lie. Luis Hernandez didn't suddenly become a great shortstop and Adam Eaton suddenly didn't become a great starting pitcher.

[TonySoprano]

Well the Orioles look like they're holding three winning lottery tix.Please throw out the old lottery tickets with the numbers 29(Loewen), 18(Olson), and 61(Maine). Also, the pick-four ticket with the above and 49(Penn) is no longer valid.

[Three Run Homer]

Eaton is no worse than Pauley, Bass, Penn, Albers, etc.. All of them are merely placeholders until Tillman, Arrieta, Matusz, Erbe, and Bergesen are ready. So who cares? In Pauley's, Bass's and Penn's case youth is no virtue if they can't pitch well enough to beat out the Eaton's of the world. Albers and Patton aren't healthy enough to hold down a rotation spot, so Eaton isn't taking anything from either of them. Eaton is a healthy, major league arm. I'll say it again. This season isn't about this season. It's about getting more experience, at whatever level it comes at for:

Jones, Pie, Wieters, Tillman, Arrieta, Matusz, Erbe, Bergesen, Hernnandez, Spoone, Liz, Britton, Butler, Bundy, Drake, Beato, Snyder, Rowell, Hoes, Avery, Miclat, etc.. They are the guys that this team is about. What happens with Eaton, Bass, Penn (though I've been a booster), Scott and Moore, is relatively meaningless.

If we're going to have lousy starting pitching, I'd rather have lousy starting pitchers that have some chance of getting better--Penn and Liz, for instance--than lousy starting pitchers who have no chance of getting better--Eaton and Hendrickson, for instance.

Eaton has been in the majors for several seasons, but that doesn't make him a major league arm. He was just as bad as Liz or Olson last season and has been below replacement level for three seasons.

[scOtt]

As has been said, Eaton is just one of many possible placeholders til the prospects get here. Hey, even getting banged around some in the first (his first start against hitters who are ahead of him...) he still only threw thirty pitches in 3 innings. Hell, he had to throw a mini-bullpen just to stretch him out.

HE. THROWS. STRIKES. What more do y'all want this year?

EDIT: Put it in play and let our defense rock.

[BaltimoreTerp]

As has been said, Eaton is just one of many possible placeholders til the prospects get here. Hey, even getting banged around some in the first (his first start against hitters who are ahead of him...) he still only threw thirty pitches in 3 innings. Hell, he had to throw a mini-bullpen just to stretch him out.

HE. THROWS. STRIKES. What more do y'all want this year?

EDIT: Put it in play and let our defense rock.

One start doesn't contradict years of evidence showing he can't pitch many innings or throw strikes.

[scOtt]

One start doesn't contradict years of evidence showing he can't pitch many innings or throw strikes.
I don't even disagree, Terp. Just that we need innings, with all the guys going down. If Eaton can provide them, then that's really all we need this year. Not necessarily quality innings, but innings nonetheless.

[Capn Vivi]

One start doesn't contradict years of evidence showing he can't pitch many innings or throw strikes.

Well, he has a career 2:1 K-BB ratio, but he also has a career ERA+ of 86 (to go along with a 1.42 WHIP) and a 1.25 HR/9. All but 65 innings of this in the national league.

According to his Wikipedia page (I'm not sure where else to look for this information) he was once DL'd for stabbing himself while opening a DVD, twice for straining a finger (missing half the year in 2006) and for Tommy John surgery in 2001. He's not quite injury prone, but he's been so bad recently he just hasn't been able to log many innings.

At the same time, I'm not quite ready to ready to cut him just because I don't like his stats. He's a live arm who seems to be healthy and eager to contribute. If he can't, he'll be cut just like Trax was last year. I won't lose any sleep over it unless he takes innings away from someone more deserving.

[DallasOsFan]

I just posted on the GameDay thread my projected starting rotation for Opening Day:

Guthrie
Uehara
Penn
Bergesen
Eaton

Eaton is the bubble guy. I think if Baez really outperforms him he'll get the spot; otherwise he's gone. I also think Eaton might go if Hill gets healthy. Although I confess it's perhaps more likely that they would just demote BB and give his spot to Eaton.......but I hope that doesn't happen.

I admit I don't get to see the guys in the minors, and only see my Birds when they're in town to play the stRangers or in the one or two times they get on TV down here.

With that said ... can you explain to me why you (and many others) seem so enthusiastic about Hayden Penn?

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the guy. But his name has been around for years as one of the "next" pitchers for the Birds, and I have yet to read about him doing anything at the major league level. Maybe he gets the No. 5 spot, maybe he goes to the bullpen, maybe he goes back down.

A quick Google search indicates:

1. He never made it to the majors at all last year.
2. He went 0-4 the year before, giving up 38 hits in 19.2 innings, allowing 33 runs, walking 13 and striking out 8 ... and posting a not-so-sizzling ERA of 15.10.

Again, I'm not ripping the guy - I hope he turns out to be the second coming of Jim Palmer or Mike Mussina (pre-MFYankee years, of course).

What am I missing here?

Thanks

[scOtt]

At the same time, I'm not quite ready to ready to cut him just because I don't like his stats. He's a live arm who seems to be healthy and eager to contribute. If he can't, he'll be cut just like Trax was last year. I won't lose any sleep over it unless he takes innings away from someone more deserving.
Better than I said it.



On Penn, because he's still only 23. You have to give a guy like that a chance. He's shown plenty of upside.

[OrangeJerseys]

I admit I don't get to see the guys in the minors, and only see my Birds when they're in town to play the stRangers or in the one or two times they get on TV down here.

With that said ... can you explain to me why you (and many others) seem so enthusiastic about Hayden Penn?

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the guy. But his name has been around for years as one of the "next" pitchers for the Birds, and I have yet to read about him doing anything at the major league level. Maybe he gets the No. 5 spot, maybe he goes to the bullpen, maybe he goes back down.

A quick Google search indicates:

1. He never made it to the majors at all last year.
2. He went 0-4 the year before, giving up 38 hits in 19.2 innings, allowing 33 runs, walking 13 and striking out 8 ... and posting a not-so-sizzling ERA of 15.10.

Again, I'm not ripping the guy - I hope he turns out to be the second coming of Jim Palmer or Mike Mussina (pre-MFYankee years, of course).

What am I missing here?

Thanks

An emergency appendectomy in May of '06 and getting speared by a broken bat in August of '08.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I don't even disagree, Terp. Just that we need innings, with all the guys going down. If Eaton can provide them, then that's really all we need this year. Not necessarily quality innings, but innings nonetheless.

What part of "years of evidence showing he can't pitch many innings..." did you not see? :D ;)

I forget what the numbers were when I calculated them in the Epic Eaton thread, but he wasn't much over five innings a start last year, and not even at 5 2/3 a start for his career.

If we want guys who can save the bullpen, why would we start a guy who can't save the bullpen? :laughlol:

[scOtt]

What part of "years of evidence showing he can't pitch many innings..." did you not see? :D ;)

I forget what the numbers were when I calculated them in the Epic Eaton thread, but he wasn't much over five innings a start last year, and not even at 5 2/3 a start for his career.

If we want guys who can save the bullpen, why would we start a guy who can't save the bullpen? :laughlol:
Wow, I lost it here, Penn replaces Eaton. :p

Still, Eaton is the last of our problems. Hell, he's kind of an asset.

[Birds of B'more]

Please throw out the old lottery tickets with the numbers 29(Loewen), 18(Olson), and 61(Maine). Also, the pick-four ticket with the above and 49(Penn) is no longer valid.

We didn't throw out that ticket. We traded it for some nachos and a Big Gulp. And they did fill us up for a little bit. The problem is, while that ticket wasn't a jackpot winner by any means, it turned out to be a 5-out-of-6 match and paid the guy we traded it to a nice little dividend. ;)

[Birds of B'more]

Wow, I lost it here, Penn replaces Eaton. :p

Still, Eaton is the last of our problems. Hell, he's kind of an asset.

Eaton himself isn't the problem. The problem is that someone of his ability and track record can be picked off the trash heap, invited to ST on MiL deal, and yet may very well be "good" enough to win a spot in the rotation. I know it's not ultimately about what the staff looks like on Opening Day, but it would still be a sad indictment on how things stand as of right now.

[Anonymous]

Why doesn't it surprise me that what should have been a feel-good thread about an encouraging first outing by a guy who obviously had sufficient tools to warrant a very generous contract offer from Philly (which he clearly had a lot of trouble earning in full through his subsequent performance) turns into full-bash mode? Rather than hope Eaton does great and that other candidates for the pitching staff do even better, many posters who don't want him on the team would prefer that he sucks worse than the other ones suck!

[RShack]

Why doesn't it surprise me that what should have been a feel-good thread about an encouraging first outing by a guy who obviously had sufficient tools to warrant a very generous contract offer from Philly (which he clearly had a lot of trouble earning in full through his subsequent performance) turns into full-bash mode? Rather than hope Eaton does great and that other candidates for the pitching staff do even better, many posters who don't want him on the team would prefer that he sucks worse than the other ones suck!
If they want him to fail, it's because his failure will support their own belief that they can be a superior GM by looking up stats on the internet. If he pitches decently, that would demonstrate that a GM needs to know more than it is possible for us to know as amateurs looking in from the outside, and that would blow-up the whole thing about being a message-board expert. So, not only would they'd rather he fail, they're indignant that he even has an opportunity. In this respect, whether he might actually help the O's is a very secondary matter. It's not about a "feel-good thread" about something encouraging, it's about feeling superior to a guy whose stats don't look so hot.

[Sports Guy]

Why doesn't it surprise me that what should have been a feel-good thread about an encouraging first outing by a guy who obviously had sufficient tools to warrant a very generous contract offer from Philly (which he clearly had a lot of trouble earning in full through his subsequent performance) turns into full-bash mode? Rather than hope Eaton does great and that other candidates for the pitching staff do even better, many posters who don't want him on the team would prefer that he sucks worse than the other ones suck!
If you don't understand why we want him to fail, then you clearly haven't looked at Eaton's stats, health, age, etc...over the last few years.

[JourneyFan]

On Penn, because he's still only 23. You have to give a guy like that a chance. He's shown plenty of upside.

And when was the last time we saw that upside?

[Three Run Homer]

Why doesn't it surprise me that what should have been a feel-good thread about an encouraging first outing by a guy who obviously had sufficient tools to warrant a very generous contract offer from Philly (which he clearly had a lot of trouble earning in full through his subsequent performance) turns into full-bash mode? Rather than hope Eaton does great and that other candidates for the pitching staff do even better, many posters who don't want him on the team would prefer that he sucks worse than the other ones suck!

It's not that people want Eaton or Baez or anyone else to fail, per se. It's just that people find disturbing the idea that the front office would view someone like Adam Eaton as a security blanket, just because he has been in the majors for a long time, never mind the fact that he has never been very good and in fact has been quite bad for the last 2-3 seasons.

One of Bill James' biggest contributions to baseball knowledge was exposing the fallacy of relying on "proven" veterans, who really had never proven anything aside from the fact that they weren't very good, rather than giving "unproven" young players a chance.

Adam Eaton is the ultimate "proven veteran". Even if he manages to pitch 20 decent innings in Spring Training, it shouldn't outweigh the years of evidence that suggest that he isn't very good. If people on the board are bashing Eaton, it's because they are worried that the team is about to make a classically dumb decision because of an overreliance on recent small samples of data and a misplaced faith in the value of prior service time.

[Sports Guy]

And when was the last time we saw that upside?

But its not like he is 27 either.

[BMoreJayMo]

If you don't understand why we want him to fail, then you clearly haven't looked at Eaton's stats, health, age, etc...over the last few years.

If so, you clearly haven't looked at the jersey on Eaton's back. Regardless of past performance, and how ridiculous the Philthy contract has proven out, the guy is an Oriole now. "Wanting him to fail" is a position that a true Oriole fan could never adopt now that he is wearing the orange, black and white. :angryfire:

[Sports Guy]

If so, you clearly haven't looked at the jersey on Eaton's back. Regardless of past performance, and how ridiculous the Philthy contract has proven out, the guy is an Oriole now. "Wanting him to fail" is a position that a true Oriole fan could never adopt now that he is wearing the orange, black and white. :angryfire:

No, the guy is in ST now...I don't want him to ever be an "official" Oriole.

The rest of this is just ra-ra fan stuff that ignores the big picture.

[BMoreJayMo]

If they want him to fail, it's because his failure will support their own belief that they can be a superior GM by looking up stats on the internet. If he pitches decently, that would demonstrate that a GM needs to know more than it is possible for us to know as amateurs looking in from the outside, and that would blow-up the whole thing about being a message-board expert. So, not only would they'd rather he fail, they're indignant that he even has an opportunity. In this respect, whether he might actually help the O's is a very secondary matter. It's not about a "feel-good thread" about something encouraging, it's about feeling superior to a guy whose stats don't look so hot.

This is the only explanation that makes sense to me. We are not talking about the "old" O's regime anymore. Eaton was brought in on a MiL contract and will not be forced onto the 40-man if it will result in the team losing a more valuable commodity. On OD, if the rotation includes Eaton, that means he has outperformed the other candidates in the ST audition, not that AM and the rest of the FO are hopelessly mired in a pre-Bill James mindset regarding the value of "proven veterans."

[BMoreJayMo]

No, the guy is in ST now...I don't want him to ever be an "official" Oriole.

The rest of this is just ra-ra fan stuff that ignores the big picture.

In ST for which squad? And please do explain your second sentence here and your omniscient perspective on the "big picture."

[Anonymous]

It's not that people want Eaton or Baez or anyone else to fail, per se. It's just that people find disturbing the idea that the front office would view someone like Adam Eaton as a security blanket, just because he has been in the majors for a long time, never mind the fact that he has never been very good and in fact has been quite bad for the last 2-3 seasons.

One of Bill James' biggest contributions to baseball knowledge was exposing the fallacy of relying on "proven" veterans, who really had never proven anything aside from the fact that they weren't very good, rather than giving "unproven" young players a chance.

Adam Eaton is the ultimate "proven veteran". Even if he manages to pitch 20 decent innings in Spring Training, it shouldn't outweigh the years of evidence that suggest that he isn't very good. If people on the board are bashing Eaton, it's because they are worried that the team is about to make a classically dumb decision because of an overreliance on recent small samples of data and a misplaced faith in the value of prior service time.We inked an experienced major league starting pitcher, an area of need last time I looked, to a MINOR LEAGUE CONTRACT. This veteran was perceived a couple of years ago as good enough to warrant a very generous contract offer from the Phillies. If that transaction is trashed as bringing in a security blanket, I think the Orioles along with every other team in the league would gladly plead guilty -- and ask where they could go to replicate this despicable crime spree.

[Orioles West]

No, the guy is in ST now...I don't want him to ever be an "official" Oriole.

The rest of this is just ra-ra fan stuff that ignores the big picture.


But actually wanting someone to fail is a part of the big picture?

I'm not sure I follow.

What I understand is the Birds are trying out a veteran pitcher who has clearly struggled a bunch. However, if he gets 9-10 wins, keeps an ERA just south of 5 and runs out to the mound for 180 innings, isn't he similar to what we were trying to do with Looper?

A veteran arm to eat innings and allow the kids some time to get ready, be it this year or next IS part of the big picture. Eaton isn't any kind of long term answer, but the way the spring is going he could emerge as one of the best five arms we have to start the season.

We didn't sign him to a five-year deal, we signed the player to buy some time for younger pitchers who may not be ready today.

Why would we not want access to someone who could potentially fill that temporary veteran pitcher the team has wanted all winter long??

If he fails, he fails, but it didn't break the bank or harm any minor league pitcher's shot at the show. Because if ANY of the young guys are ready, they are going to get a spot.

And if most of our young pitchers are not ready, why WANT any pitcher to fail, who is here simply to buy time until they are ready to claim a spot?



-Don

[Fan4Life]

It's not that people want Eaton or Baez or anyone else to fail, per se. It's just that people find disturbing the idea that the front office would view someone like Adam Eaton as a security blanket, just because he has been in the majors for a long time, never mind the fact that he has never been very good and in fact has been quite bad for the last 2-3 seasons.

One of Bill James' biggest contributions to baseball knowledge was exposing the fallacy of relying on "proven" veterans, who really had never proven anything aside from the fact that they weren't very good, rather than giving "unproven" young players a chance.

Adam Eaton is the ultimate "proven veteran". Even if he manages to pitch 20 decent innings in Spring Training, it shouldn't outweigh the years of evidence that suggest that he isn't very good. If people on the board are bashing Eaton, it's because they are worried that the team is about to make a classically dumb decision because of an overreliance on recent small samples of data and a misplaced faith in the value of prior service time.


If you follow SG's logic in the other thread "Does it matter who starts opening day" and realize that this FO doesn't care how 2009 goes, at least the first half of it, then beating up on Eaton, Baez, et al is a waste of time. The only alternative is starting our AA talent, then this thread could be arguing whether we're ruining the career of several run pitchers by bringing them up too soon. At least that would be a worthy argument. Bashing pitchers (who are only here for 2009) on a team going nowhere in 2009 lends itself to Shacks explanation. LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME.

[Sports Guy]

But actually wanting someone to fail is a part of the big picture?
I'm not sure I follow.

What I understand is the Birds are trying out a veteran pitcher who has clearly struggled a bunch. However, if he gets 9-10 wins, keeps an ERA just south of 5 and runs out to the mound for 180 innings, isn't he similar to what we were trying to do with Looper?

A veteran arm to eat innings and allow the kids some time to get ready, be it this year or next IS part of the big picture. Eaton isn't any kind of long term answer, but the way the spring is going he could emerge as one of the best five arms we have to start the season.

We didn't sign him to a five-year deal, we signed the player to buy some time for younger pitchers who may not be ready today.

Why would we not want access to someone who could potentially fill that temporary veteran pitcher the team has wanted all winter long??

If he fails, he fails, but it didn't break the bank or harm any minor league pitcher's shot at the show. Because if ANY of the young guys are ready, they are going to get a spot.

And if most of our young pitchers are not ready, why WANT any pitcher to fail, who is here simply to buy time until they are ready to claim a spot?



-Don
Yes because he is awful and has no business making our team.

So yes, I hope he does fail so that we don't bring him north.

[Mike B]

IMO, all the complaining about signing Eaton and then putting him, or for that matter Baez, Bass, Hendrickson etc. in the rotation is silly. The organization has made the decision not to rush the young pitchers to the majors, for 2 reasons, 1. Because it usually does not work and 2. because they do not plan to challenge until 2011. They will not waste service time, and they want the calvary to arrive basically together. With all that said, it stands to reason that our rotation will be filled with place holders. I am no fan of Eaton, Hendrickson etc. because history shows they are not very good, but if it helps us have a core of major league ready guys for 2010 and 2011 then so be it.

One other point, does any one else feel like Bergesson may get the call this year only because he pitches to contact (strikes) but mainly because he has the lowest ceiling of all the young guys. To paraphrase one of my favorite movies, BB may be expendable, in that they do not envision him in the group that will anchor the rotation for a period of 6 or 7 years. I have seen BB and like him but I think but he seems more like a back of the rotation guy in stuff.

[BMoreJayMo]

Yes because he is awful and has no business making our team.

So yes, I hope he does fail so that we don't bring him north.\\\

And you have now surpassed JTrea81 for the OH post that makes the least sense, fails to respond to critique in a rational fashion and blindly holds to an untenable position without offering even a shred of credible supporting evidence.

Again, one last try - IF Eaton makes the 40-man it is because he has outperformed the other candidates for that spot and has shown the FO/DT he has more to offer this season than what any of the other candidates have shown.

[Mike B]

Yes because he is awful and has no business making our team.

So yes, I hope he does fail so that we don't bring him north.

With all due respect, that is a warped way of rooting for the team.

[Lucky Jim]

\\\

And you have now surpassed JTrea81 for the OH post that makes the least sense, fails to respond to critique in a rational fashion and blindly holds to an untenable position without offering even a shred of credible supporting evidence.

Again, one last try - IF Eaton makes the 40-man it is because he has outperformed the other candidates for that spot and has shown the FO/DT he has more to offer this season than what any of the other candidates have shown.

I'm not sure what outperforming other pitchers in spring training proves, with a guy like Eaton who's got virtually no upside and a terrible track record.

I really don't care one way or the other, as long as no one is cut to keep him. But it's eminently reasonable to say that giving Eaton innings at the expense of a younger guy is a waste of time. And, if you believe that a good ST performance will only obscure the underlying truth (of his sub-mediocrity) then it's fair to say you prefer that he fail and thus not deceive the O's FO.

[BMoreJayMo]

IMO, all the complaining about signing Eaton and then putting him, or for that matter Baez, Bass, Hendrickson etc. in the rotation is silly. The organization has made the decision not to rush the young pitchers to the majors, for 2 reasons, 1. Because it usually does not work and 2. because they do not plan to challenge until 2011. They will not waste service time, and they want the calvary to arrive basically together. With all that said, it stands to reason that our rotation will be filled with place holders. I am no fan of Eaton, Hendrickson etc. because history shows they are not very good, but if it helps us have a core of major league ready guys for 2010 and 2011 then so be it.

One other point, does any one else feel like Bergesson may get the call this year only because he pitches to contact (strikes) but mainly because he has the lowest ceiling of all the young guys. To paraphrase one of my favorite movies, BB may be expendable, in that they do not envision him in the group that will anchor the rotation for a period of 6 or 7 years. I have seen BB and like him but I think but he seems more like a back of the rotation guy in stuff.

Agreed with the first paragraph, though I would say '10 is the year the Os challenge - maybe not for the AL East, but the wild card should at least be in sight deep into the season. Depending, of course, on the development the young guns show in the minors this season and potentially increasing if AM's '09 trade deadline activities bring in some value that will contribute next year.

Partially agreed on the second paragraph - yes on BB having a better shot at making an OPACY appearance this year than the young guns. More so because he does pitch to contact and looks like he will continue that approach in the bigs - for what ST performance is worth. I wouldn't call him expendable though, as a solid 4th SP is definitely valuable, particularly when efficient.

[Anonymous]

Agreed with the first paragraph, though I would say '10 is the year the Os challenge - maybe not for the AL East, but the wild card should at least be in sight deep into the season. Depending, of course, on the development the young guns show in the minors this season and potentially increasing if AM's '09 trade deadline activities bring in some value that will contribute next year.

Partially agreed on the second paragraph - yes on BB having a better shot at making an OPACY appearance this year than the young guns. More so because he does pitch to contact and looks like he will continue that approach in the bigs - for what ST performance is worth. I wouldn't call him expendable though, as a solid 4th SP is definitely valuable, particularly when efficient.With the teams we have in our division, these two things are nearly identical. And I'm not quite ready to throw in the towel on '09. A 5% chance is good enough for me to be excited.

[Sports Guy]

With all due respect, that is a warped way of rooting for the team.

Ask me if I care?

And I am not rooting against the Orioles...I am rooting against Eaton....Little bit of a difference there...hopefully you can understand the distinction between the 2.

[Sports Guy]

\\\

And you have now surpassed JTrea81 for the OH post that makes the least sense, fails to respond to critique in a rational fashion and blindly holds to an untenable position without offering even a shred of credible supporting evidence.

Again, one last try - IF Eaton makes the 40-man it is because he has outperformed the other candidates for that spot and has shown the FO/DT he has more to offer this season than what any of the other candidates have shown.

LOL...That is funny since obviously YOU are the one who needs "one last try"..It is obvious the point is flying over your head.

Let me say it again..this time maybe you will understand it.

I AM ROOTING AGAINST EATON TO MAKE THE TEAM!

This has NOTHING to do with what happens if/when he does make it...I am hoping he is worse than everyone else and has no shot at making the club.

I am rooting against Eaton and for all the younger pitchers...Do you not understand this simple and obvious concept?

And what does a few good ST innings prove?

[BillySmith]

Hopefull Hill, Liz and Bergesen grab the final three spots and Mr. Eaton will have to decide if he want to pitch in Norfolk.

[Old Beta]

If they want him to fail, it's because his failure will support their own belief that they can be a superior GM by looking up stats on the internet. If he pitches decently, that would demonstrate that a GM needs to know more than it is possible for us to know as amateurs looking in from the outside, and that would blow-up the whole thing about being a message-board expert. So, not only would they'd rather he fail, they're indignant that he even has an opportunity. In this respect, whether he might actually help the O's is a very secondary matter. It's not about a "feel-good thread" about something encouraging, it's about feeling superior to a guy whose stats don't look so hot.

This is the single-most insightful post on message board behavior, particularly baseball message board behavior, that I've ever read.

The only thing it lacks is a reference to the age factor, in which younger posters of this type (in their 20s) tend to dislike players older than themselves.

[BMoreJayMo]

With the teams we have in our division, these two things are nearly identical. And I'm not quite ready to throw in the towel on '09. A 5% chance is good enough for me to be excited.

Definitely the class of the AL, but I don't think we can entirely rule out an overachieving run by "X" team in the West or Central every year. Kudos on the excitement for this year - I share it, even if the playoff shot were 0.1%. Just having some young talent under club control, a GM with a plan and the apparent authority to pull it off and a chance to win any given game is enough for me though. Maybe it's still the kid in me, I enjoy the wins even if we don't make the playoffs.

[Orioles West]

Yes because he is awful and has no business making our team.




Unless the team thinks more of our young pitchers need additional starts in the minor leagues before bringing them up.





-Don

[Fan4Life]

Unless the team thinks more of our young pitchers need additional starts in the minor leagues before bringing them up.

-Don


Why should what the team thinks matter? :scratchchinhmm:

[Sports Guy]

Unless the team thinks more of our young pitchers need additional starts in the minor leagues before bringing them up.





-DonThen give his spot to guys like Bass and Waters...Guys who have nothing left to prove in the minors but could potentially be a piece long term.

Let me put it another way...Asking you and anyone else in favor of Eaton.

Give me your 12 or 13 man staff with Eaton in it...Who else comprises it for you?

[Anonymous]

Definitely the class of the AL, but I don't think we can entirely rule out an overachieving run by "X" team in the West or Central every year. Kudos on the excitement for this year - I share it, even if the playoff shot were 0.1%. Just having some young talent under club control, a GM with a plan and the apparent authority to pull it off and a chance to win any given game is enough for me though. Maybe it's still the kid in me, I enjoy the wins even if we don't make the playoffs.During this AARP entry year for me, it remains part of my life plan never to lose that kid in me. If you can't get excited about this stuff, you're really missing a pretty important part of the psyche. That's why we have this thing called sports.

[Orioles West]

Why should what the team thinks matter? :scratchchinhmm:

My bad. I forgot some folks here are better suited to evaluate the needs of our pitching staff than any Oriole scouts, coaches and managers.




-Don

[BMoreJayMo]

I'm not sure what outperforming other pitchers in spring training proves, with a guy like Eaton who's got virtually no upside and a terrible track record.

I really don't care one way or the other, as long as no one is cut to keep him. But it's eminently reasonable to say that giving Eaton innings at the expense of a younger guy is a waste of time. And, if you believe that a good ST performance will only obscure the underlying truth (of his sub-mediocrity) then it's fair to say you prefer that he fail and thus not deceive the O's FO.

It only proves he has done more with the opportunity than others have done with the same/similar opportunity. Don't get me wrong, I hope the Os have five better options for the rotation that have nothing left to learn/develop in the minors. All of whom have great upside, projectability, stuff..whatever you want to call it.

However, if the only reason we have five better options is that Eaton has completely blown the opportunity, and none of the others have earned the spot through superior performance, I do not view that as a positive development. Just because someone is younger does not mean they present a better option to help the club this year. Exhibit A: G.Olson and his tremendous season in '08.

I do not have so little faith in the FO that I think they will be deceived by a good ST performance. Personally, I do not look at the cumulative numbers so much in ST, but do look at specific performance indicators and performance in specific situations. At that's from far away. IMO, the professionals in the organization are doing something similar but from a much better vantage point.

Adam Eaton's agent I am not, nor am I related to him in any way. I have no personal stake in Adam Eaton's success or failure. In fact, you could put any name you want on the back of that particular jersey/skill set and my opinion would remain the same, as follows:
- AM will not keep him around at the expense of losing an asset with an expected greater value, regardless of ST performance;
- AM and the FO are in a far better position to evaluate the players' potential than me;
- I hope the player succeeds in the Oriole uniform and provides additional value to the team even if merely in the form of pushing the other rotation candidates to perform better;
- a team can never have too much pitching, particularly in ST;
- the young guns will all benefit from at least starting the year in the minors and the less pressure on the team to bring them up for a minimal impact this year, the better

[rochester]

Better than I said it.



On Penn, because he's still only 23. You have to give a guy like that a chance. He's shown plenty of upside.

Unfortunately, IMO, Penn will be exposed, pass through and end up back in Norfolk (maybe). And I know about the fluke injuries, momentary lapses of reason, deer in the headlights look against major league hitting, etc. etc. but...when was the last time he showed "plenty of upside?"

Nothing would make me happier than saying I have been wrong for the past 2 years about him

[Sports Guy]

It only proves he has done more with the opportunity than others have done with the same/similar opportunity. Don't get me wrong, I hope the Os have five better options for the rotation that have nothing left to learn/develop in the minors. All of whom have great upside, projectability, stuff..whatever you want to call it.

However, if the only reason we have five better options is that Eaton has completely blown the opportunity, and none of the others have earned the spot through superior performance, I do not view that as a positive development. Just because someone is younger does not mean they present a better option to help the club this year. Exhibit A: G.Olson and his tremendous season in '08.

I do not have so little faith in the FO that I think they will be deceived by a good ST performance. Personally, I do not look at the cumulative numbers so much in ST, but do look at specific performance indicators and performance in specific situations. At that's from far away. IMO, the professionals in the organization are doing something similar but from a much better vantage point.

Adam Eaton's agent I am not, nor am I related to him in any way. I have no personal stake in Adam Eaton's success or failure. In fact, you could put any name you want on the back of that particular jersey/skill set and my opinion would remain the same, as follows:
- AM will not keep him around at the expense of losing an asset with an expected greater value, regardless of ST performance;
- AM and the FO are in a far better position to evaluate the players' potential than me;
- I hope the player succeeds in the Oriole uniform and provides additional value to the team even if merely in the form of pushing the other rotation candidates to perform better;
- a team can never have too much pitching, particularly in ST;
- the young guns will all benefit from at least starting the year in the minors and the less pressure on the team to bring them up for a minimal impact this year, the better

So, let's see your staff with Eaton...I want to see who you are cutting, leaving off, etc....

[BMoreJayMo]

Apologies for the delay.

With 3+ weeks until Opening Day, no one is position to give a final rotation, not even the professionals. Undoubtedly, injuries will play a major factor in the final make up and the FO will likely use the DL to protect any of the arms they feel are worth keeping but are not ready to go, probably Hill unless he makes a swift comeback. As I said before, I do not have a vested interest in Eaton. I do hope he continues to show improvement in performance, both in game and otherwise, for the reasons listed above. I for one, hope Penn "rediscovers" the talent exhibited in his minor league years, do not expect BB to start the year in the rotation and consider Eaton/Hendrickson/Baez interchangeable except for the money involved. Ideally, and with caveats aside:

Guts
Koji
Hill
Penn
Liz

Penn and Liz still have to consistently show improvement. More realistically, unless those two "prove" they deserve a spot and until Hill is ready:

Guts
Koji
Hendrickson
Pauley/Eaton/Baez for the last two.

[Sports Guy]

Apologies for the delay.

With 3+ weeks of ST left to go, no one is position to give a final OD rotation, not even the professionals. Undoubtedly, injuries will play a major factor in the final make up and the FO will likely use the DL to protect any of the arms they feel are worth keeping but are not ready to go, probably Hill unless he makes a swift comeback. As I said before, I do not have a vested interest in Eaton. I do hope he continues to show improvement in performance, both in game and otherwise, for the reasons listed above. I for one, hope Penn "rediscovers" the talent exhibited in his minor league years, do not expect BB to start the year in the rotation and consider Eaton/Hendrickson/Baez interchangeable except for the money involved. Ideally, and with caveats aside:

Guts
Koji
Hill
Penn
Liz

Penn and Liz still have to consistently show improvement. More realistically, unless those two "prove" they deserve a spot and until Hill is ready:

Guts
Koji
Hendrickson
Pauley/Eaton/Baez for the last two.

Full staff...What is it with Eaton?(this includes BP)

If you are going to take shots at posters fandom and you think it is bad to root against a player, then you need to come to the table with your solutions, your roster, etc....

[BMoreJayMo]

Full staff...What is it with Eaton?(this includes BP)

If you are going to take shots at posters fandom and you think it is bad to root against a player, then you need to come to the table with your solutions, your roster, etc....

My "shot" is rooting against players in an Oriole uniform and claiming to be a fan of the team. If you want to restate your perspective along the lines of rooting for some of the other candidates to show enough to convince the FO that Eaton is redundant/worthless, I have no complaint against that.

I do not propose that I, or anyone else, will have the solution at this point in time. All I could offer at any point, and nearly everyone else posting here that is not affiliated in a professional capacity with the team, is an amateur opinion based on limited information that is almost entirely provided through a third party lens.

The history of baseball is littered with examples of pitchers that have been written off but for some reason or another rebounded to produce quality seasons for their respective teams.....Jeremy Guthrie as a recent Oriole example. In no way do I insist Eaton will be one of those examples, but I will not ever root against the possibility of such a development for someone in an Oriole uniform.

Other than Roger Clemens.

[Birds of B'more]

Forgive the west coast guy for the delayed response.

I'm not rooting for Eaton to fail, per se. I actually hope that we see the best he has at ST. But knowing what his "best" is and what we can expect if he spends 2009 in our rotation, then what I truly hope for is that somehow three among the group of Penn, Pauley, Liz, Hill, Bergeson and Waters are good enough that we can let him go before before leaving Ft. Lauderdale. If not, it will be a huge disappointment, IMO

[BMoreJayMo]

Forgive the west coast guy for the delayed response.

I'm not rooting for Eaton to fail, per se. I actually hope that we see the best he has at ST. But knowing what his "best" is and what we can expect if he spends 2009 in our rotation, then what I truly hope for is that somehow three among the group of Penn, Pauley, Liz, Hill, Bergeson and Waters are good enough that we can let him go before before leaving Ft. Lauderdale. If not, it will be a huge disappointment, IMO

No worries, I do remember the West Coast days though it's been a few years. :)

That's a perspective on the staff I can both appreciate and respect (which prob has the same value as a doughnut hole), although I believe BB will not make the OD roster. Maybe Waters can show something that indicates he will be a better "innings eater" than Eaton/Hendrickson/Baez for '09. I have more hope for Pauley, but would prefer either.

[BaltimoreTerp]

My "shot" is rooting against players in an Oriole uniform and claiming to be a fan of the team. If you want to restate your perspective along the lines of rooting for some of the other candidates to show enough to convince the FO that Eaton is redundant/worthless, I have no complaint against that.

I do not propose that I, or anyone else, will have the solution at this point in time. All I could offer at any point, and nearly everyone else posting here that is not affiliated in a professional capacity with the team, is an amateur opinion based on limited information that is almost entirely provided through a third party lens.

The history of baseball is littered with examples of pitchers that have been written off but for some reason or another rebounded to produce quality seasons for their respective teams.....Jeremy Guthrie as a recent Oriole example. In no way do I insist Eaton will be one of those examples, but I will not ever root against the possibility of such a development for someone in an Oriole uniform.

Other than Roger Clemens.

I for one am not rooting for Eaton to fail, and frankly I find that insinuation extremely insulting.

I just don't see the need to add inferior talent to a team that needs as much superior talent as we can get.

Go look at what Eaton has done in the majors. He has not had a remotely decent season since 2005, and his ERA was still below-average then. His last two terrible seasons were in the (inferior) National League. His WHIP has increased for four straight years and wasn't particularly good at it's low level. His strikeout rate has dropped for three straight years, and his walk rate went up for three straight before taking a slight dip last year.

He's also 31. To give you some scale, Jeremy Guthire is a baseball year younger (really, a year and a half), and was 28 when we picked him off the scrap heap and gave him a chance when we had no other options.

Signing Adam Eaton and giving him a rotation spot is either a lazy move or a desperation move. Either way it doesn't say good things for the people making such decisions.

(And before someone proves how much of a moron they are and wonders how I can have such a low opinion of the people in charge after they did such a good job, they need to think for a minute if they can and realize that since everyone is human, mistakes can be made. That doesn't mean that the move that is a mistake should be ignored, lest it be repeated.)

[Fan4Life]

I for one am not rooting for Eaton to fail, and frankly I find that insinuation extremely insulting.

I just don't see the need to add inferior talent to a team that needs as much superior talent as we can get.

Go look at what Eaton has done in the majors. He has not had a remotely decent season since 2005, and his ERA was still below-average then. His last two terrible seasons were in the (inferior) National League. His WHIP has increased for four straight years and wasn't particularly good at it's low level. His strikeout rate has dropped for three straight years, and his walk rate went up for three straight before taking a slight dip last year.

He's also 31. To give you some scale, Jeremy Guthire is a baseball year younger (really, a year and a half), and was 28 when we picked him off the scrap heap and gave him a chance when we had no other options.

Signing Adam Eaton and giving him a rotation spot is either a lazy move or a desperation move. Either way it doesn't say good things for the people making such decisions.

(And before someone proves how much of a moron they are and wonders how I can have such a low opinion of the people in charge after they did such a good job, they need to think for a minute if they can and realize that since everyone is human, mistakes can be made. That doesn't mean that the move that is a mistake should be ignored, lest it be repeated.)


What would your alternative be? If you've already stated it, I apologize in advance.

[BaltimoreTerp]

What would your alternative be? If you've already stated it, I apologize in advance.

Whatever pitcher(s) the team feels are ready for the majors.

My fear the whole time is that they would make the lazy decision to go with the veteran pitcher over a younger guy just because.

So if the team feels that Bergesen or Matusz (for example) are ready to handle pitching in the majors, they should get the spot over a 31-year-old who is who we think he is.

[Crazysilver03]

Unfortunately, IMO, Penn will be exposed, pass through and end up back in Norfolk (maybe). And I know about the fluke injuries, momentary lapses of reason, deer in the headlights look against major league hitting, etc. etc. but...when was the last time he showed "plenty of upside?"

Nothing would make me happier than saying I have been wrong for the past 2 years about him

I doubt the Padres pass on Penn if given the chance.

[connja]

at this point, I think Eaton will make the rotation out of the gate, and it will look like this:

Guts
Koji
Eaton
Baez
Penn

with Hill opening on the DL and replacing either Eaton or Baez if/when ready.

[BMoreJayMo]

I for one am not rooting for Eaton to fail, and frankly I find that insinuation extremely insulting.

I just don't see the need to add inferior talent to a team that needs as much superior talent as we can get.

Go look at what Eaton has done in the majors. He has not had a remotely decent season since 2005, and his ERA was still below-average then. His last two terrible seasons were in the (inferior) National League. His WHIP has increased for four straight years and wasn't particularly good at it's low level. His strikeout rate has dropped for three straight years, and his walk rate went up for three straight before taking a slight dip last year.

He's also 31. To give you some scale, Jeremy Guthire is a baseball year younger (really, a year and a half), and was 28 when we picked him off the scrap heap and gave him a chance when we had no other options.

Signing Adam Eaton and giving him a rotation spot is either a lazy move or a desperation move. Either way it doesn't say good things for the people making such decisions.

(And before someone proves how much of a moron they are and wonders how I can have such a low opinion of the people in charge after they did such a good job, they need to think for a minute if they can and realize that since everyone is human, mistakes can be made. That doesn't mean that the move that is a mistake should be ignored, lest it be repeated.)

It's not an insinuation when SG's exact quote was "So yes, I hope he does fail so that we don't bring him north." Apology not requested.

[BMoreJayMo]

I for one am not rooting for Eaton to fail, and frankly I find that insinuation extremely insulting.

I just don't see the need to add inferior talent to a team that needs as much superior talent as we can get.

Go look at what Eaton has done in the majors. He has not had a remotely decent season since 2005, and his ERA was still below-average then. His last two terrible seasons were in the (inferior) National League. His WHIP has increased for four straight years and wasn't particularly good at it's low level. His strikeout rate has dropped for three straight years, and his walk rate went up for three straight before taking a slight dip last year.

He's also 31. To give you some scale, Jeremy Guthire is a baseball year younger (really, a year and a half), and was 28 when we picked him off the scrap heap and gave him a chance when we had no other options.

Signing Adam Eaton and giving him a rotation spot is either a lazy move or a desperation move. Either way it doesn't say good things for the people making such decisions.

(And before someone proves how much of a moron they are and wonders how I can have such a low opinion of the people in charge after they did such a good job, they need to think for a minute if they can and realize that since everyone is human, mistakes can be made. That doesn't mean that the move that is a mistake should be ignored, lest it be repeated.)

It is not an insinuation when SG's exact quote, above, reads "So yes, I hope he does fail so that we don't bring him north." Apology not requested.

[Sports Guy]

It's not an insinuation when SG's exact quote was "So yes, I hope he does fail so that we don't bring him north." Apology not requested.

Oh, I admit it...I hope Eaton fails...Because if he doesn't, he will make the team...And then you know what will happen? That pitching staff that you choose not to name, will end up being without Pauley, Penn or Sarfate in all likelihood.

[BMoreJayMo]

Whatever pitcher(s) the team feels are ready for the majors.

My fear the whole time is that they would make the lazy decision to go with the veteran pitcher over a younger guy just because.

So if the team feels that Bergesen or Matusz (for example) are ready to handle pitching in the majors, they should get the spot over a 31-year-old who is who we think he is.

I am now of the opinion that those who have nothing to add other than "it's the lazy decision" are self-projecting their thought process re: posts to the O's FO process in evaluating pitching candidates for the roster this year.

[BaltimoreTerp]

It's not an insinuation when SG's exact quote was "So yes, I hope he does fail so that we don't bring him north." Apology not requested.

Anonymous and RShack made the insinuation before SG commented on it. And I don't remember requesting an apology, from you or otherwise.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I am now of the opinion that those who have nothing to add other than "it's the lazy decision" are self-projecting their thought process re: posts to the O's FO process in evaluating pitching candidates for the roster this year.

And I'm of the opinion that you are just being argumentative to anyone who you feel disagrees with your opinion.

[Mike B]

Agreed with the first paragraph, though I would say '10 is the year the Os challenge - maybe not for the AL East, but the wild card should at least be in sight deep into the season. Depending, of course, on the development the young guns show in the minors this season and potentially increasing if AM's '09 trade deadline activities bring in some value that will contribute next year.

Partially agreed on the second paragraph - yes on BB having a better shot at making an OPACY appearance this year than the young guns. More so because he does pitch to contact and looks like he will continue that approach in the bigs - for what ST performance is worth. I wouldn't call him expendable though, as a solid 4th SP is definitely valuable, particularly when efficient.

Fair point on the last note. I am a fan of they young pitchers and tried to make the rounds in past years to see them. BB is a battler who I hope far exceeds the sum of his tools but I just have a hunch the FO is far more willing to take chances with him than some of the more publicized guys.

[BMoreJayMo]

Fair point on the last note. I am a fan of they young pitchers and tried to make the rounds in past years to see them. BB is a battler who I hope far exceeds the sum of his tools but I just have a hunch the FO is far more willing to take chances with him than some of the more publicized guys.

Well stated and I look forward to seeing them in person - have not had the opportunity to date.

Then I guess we agree to agree - insert emoticon of two frosty mugs clinking here.

[Fan4Life]

Whatever pitcher(s) the team feels are ready for the majors.

My fear the whole time is that they would make the lazy decision to go with the veteran pitcher over a younger guy just because.

So if the team feels that Bergesen or Matusz (for example) are ready to handle pitching in the majors, they should get the spot over a 31-year-old who is who we think he is.

Considering we don't plan to be competitive until next year at the earliest, what is the harm in playing Eaton and preserving the service time of all the quality guys we think will be part of our future? If Eaton is horrble, a la Trachsel, we dump him and plug in one of the younger pitchers and we'll have saved the service time. If Eaton is at least 5.00 ERA or less though the Allstar break, so much the better. Trade him or drop him then. We'll have had half a minor league season to determine who has successfully worked on the items they were told to concentrate on when they left camp.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Considering we don't plan to be competitive until next year at the earliest, what is the harm in playing Eaton and preserving the service time of all the quality guys we think will be part of our future? If Eaton is horrble, a la Trachsel, we dump him and plug in one of the younger pitchers and we'll have saved the service time. If Eaton is at least 5.00 ERA or less though the Allstar break, so much the better. Trade him or drop him then. We'll have had half a minor league season to determine who has successfully worked on the items they were told to concentrate on when they left camp.

Do you want to be giving guys their first experience in a year where we want to contend?

I would much rather take the guys who we think are going to be important members of the team for next year and, if the team sees them as able to handle the major leagues and improve at that level, let them work out their issues and gain experience up here.

[Fan4Life]

Do you want to be giving guys their first experience in a year where we want to contend?

I would much rather take the guys who we think are going to be important members of the team for next year and, if the team sees them as able to handle the major leagues and improve at that level, let them work out their issues and gain experience up here.

I don't disagree with this at all. I suppose the question comes down to whether or not we trust what the team decides if it isn't what we think should happen.

I suppose it's possible the FO plans to bring some of them up at the break and feel half a season is plenty enough time to get acclimated to the MLB environment.

[BMoreJayMo]

Anonymous and RShack made the insinuation before SG commented on it. And I don't remember requesting an apology, from you or otherwise.

Then why quote me when you made the "frankly I find that insinuation extremely insulting?" If you are responding to someone else, reply to their post; if you quote mine and reply I will address it. No insinuation will be required if I intend to insult you - which to this point I have gone to great lengths to avoid.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I don't disagree with this at all. I suppose the question comes down to whether or not we trust what the team decides if it isn't what we think should happen.

I suppose it's possible the FO plans to bring some of them up at the break and feel half a season is plenty enough time to get acclimated to the MLB environment.

I've said all along that I'm not near the situation so I could be wrong.

However, there needs to be some sensible reason to put someone like Eaton in the rotation ahead of a more-talented player. There isn't a statistical one, and anything that ends up being said to the effect of him "being a veteran" and the like are going to come off as poor excuses (and anything about "innings-eater" is a pure 100% LIE).

Basically, if putting not putting him on the roster for Opening Day means that we will only have four available starters, then we'll talk :D

[BaltimoreTerp]

Then why quote me when you made the "frankly I find that insinuation extremely insulting?" If you are responding to someone else, reply to their post; if you quote mine and reply I will address it. No insinuation will be required if I intend to insult you - which to this point I have gone to great lengths to avoid.

Because I was responding to your entire post, and was mentioning specifically that I am not rooting for him to fail, and generally that it is an insulting insinuation.

Are you going to keep up the discussion on semantics, or are you going to argue for or against certain points?

[RShack]

I for one am not rooting for Eaton to fail, and frankly I find that insinuation extremely insulting.

Anonymous and RShack made the insinuation before SG commented on it. And I don't remember requesting an apology, from you or otherwise.
The topic of what you are responding to was rooting for Eaton to fail. If that doesn't describe you, then I don't understand why you are making everything personal, as if everybody is talking about you.

I can't speak for Anonymous or anyone else, but I was responding neither to you nor about you. I was responding to the idea that somebody else mentioned, that some folks are rooting for Eaton to fail. That's what my comments were about. I trust you to judge whether you hope he fails. I don't study or take notes about the details of exactly who says what, and I have no idea if you ever said that or not. I have no reason to not believe you. If you say you didn't, I believe you.

But the idea that all this is in reference to you is a bit goofy. It's not the case that everybody is talking about you. The topic was people rooting for Eaton to fail. The topic was not BTerp. If you think think people were "insinuating" that, then you might wanna chill out some. That's what is known as having "ideas of reference". I wish you would just back up some and quit making everything personal. People aren't thinking about you nearly as much as you seem to think they are.

[BaltimoreTerp]

The topic of what you are responding to was rooting for Eaton to fail. If that doesn't describe you, then I don't understand why you are making everything personal, as if everybody is talking about you.

I can't speak for Anonymous or anyone else, but I was responding neither to you nor about you. I was responding to the idea that somebody else mentioned, that some folks are rooting for Eaton to fail. That's what my comments were about. I trust you to judge whether you hope he fails. I don't study or take notes about the details of exactly who says what, and I have no idea if you ever said that or not. I have no reason to not believe you. If you say you didn't, I believe you.

But the idea that all this is in reference to you is a bit goofy. It's not the case that everybody is talking about you. The topic was people rooting for Eaton to fail. The topic was not BTerp. If you think think people were "insinuating" that, then you might wanna chill out some. That's what is known as having "ideas of reference". I wish you would just back up some and quit making everything personal. People aren't thinking about you nearly as much as you seem to think they are.

I'm not making it personal. You two were insinuating that people arguing against Eaton were rooting for him to fail. I'm not, so I'm pointing that out, as well as my opinion on the insinuation.

And you two WERE doing so, because no one said they were doing anything of the sort until after you two had posted your comments. Either you two were making a generalization about everyone with a differing opinion, or you were (once again in your case) taking things WAY out of context and shaping them to match your preconceptions.

Look, if you don't want to make this personal, then don't. If you feel that I am, then don't respond to the statement you feel is doing so. Whining about it in every single thread where someone disagrees doesn't make me want to listen to your arguments. And if people won't listen then what's the point of making them?

[RShack]

I'm not making it personal. You two were insinuating that people arguing against Eaton were rooting for him to fail. I'm not, so I'm pointing that out, as well as my opinion on the insinuation.

And you two WERE doing so, because no one said they were doing anything of the sort until after you two had posted your comments. Either you two were making a generalization about everyone with a differing opinion, or you were (once again in your case) taking things WAY out of context and shaping them to match your preconceptions.

Look, if you don't want to make this personal, then don't. If you feel that I am, then don't respond to the statement you feel is doing so. Whining about it in every single thread where someone disagrees doesn't make me want to listen to your arguments. And if people won't listen then what's the point of making them?
BTerp, you're getting a little bit crazy here. I was not "insinuating" anything about you, or about folks who did not approve of the Eaton signing. To tell you the truth, I wasn't especially enthused about it myself, but I wasn't gonna have a fit about it because I know very little about the guy. The topic at hand was about folks who, after Eaton became an Oriole, were hoping he would fail. Now, what part of that sentence don't you understand?

This idea that people are somehow "up to something" in a sneaky, behind-the-back kind of way, and that folks are "insinuating" things which you then take as "insults", well, that's a little nuts. Really, it is. There is no reason to think that I would say you're wrong behind your back, because you know full well that I will say it to your face. You want proof? Here: I think you are Wrong, Wrong, Wrong about several things. See? Is that clear enough? ;-)

Now that we've cleared that up, go look up "ideas of reference". Not "delusions of reference", but "ideas of reference": it refers to being convinced that people are talking about you when they aren't. What I said was not an "insinuation". It ain't about you, or about your opinion about whether AM should have signed Eaton. That idea exists 100% inside your head. Like I said, people are not thinking about you or talking about you nearly as much as you seem to think they are.

[El Gordo]

It seems to me the issue boils down to Eaton vs Pauley and Penn(there is no way IMO, that Sarfate gets bumped because of Eaton). I think the people who are opposed to Eaton, are saying in effect, that under no circumstances should Pauley and Penn(perhaps Bass to a lesser extent, though I doubt SG will be shedding too many crocodile tears if he is waived) be waived to make room for Eaton, no matter how bad they may pitch in ST, or how good Eaton pitches. They have promise for the future and Eaton does not. My question is, is this true? Is there no way Penn/Pauley or Bass(who is pitching much better than the other two, and could have a spot in the pen) could pitch badly enough to warrant Eaton's inclusion? I am not concerned with Liz because he has options as does Bergeson. Hill will be on the DL initially, and if he is throwing well, should take priority over all of them IMO.

[Anonymous]

It seems to me the issue boils down to Eaton vs Pauley and Penn(there is no way IMO, that Sarfate gets bumped because of Eaton). I think the people who are opposed to Eaton, are saying in effect, that under no circumstances should Pauley and Penn(perhaps Bass to a lesser extent, though I doubt SG will be shedding too many crocodile tears if he is waived) be waived to make room for Eaton, no matter how bad they may pitch in ST, or how good Eaton pitches. They have promise for the future and Eaton does not. My question is, is this true? Is there no way Penn/Pauley or Bass(who is pitching much better than the other two, and could have a spot in the pen) could pitch badly enough to warrant Eaton's inclusion? I am not concerned with Liz because he has options as does Bergeson. Hill will be on the DL initially, and if he is throwing well, should take priority over all of them IMO.We don't know this yet. Take a look at the fantastic OP by csgordos on JJ. Based on what I read there, I an now suspecting that Johnson will start the year on the DL. A lot of additional developments can and will take place over the next few weeks. So I think it's way too premature to try gaming the system, hoping that Player A fails so that Player B with more upside can make the club. We may need BOTH A and B. Now if it's coming down to the wire and we're really down to Eaton vs. Penn or Eaton vs. Bass for the final spot on the roster, even I would be rooting for Eaton to "fail" at that point -- as I not only acknowledge, but also fully agree with, the logic that guys with upside for the future are valuable commodities that I would be loath to throw away (I don't know that Pauley would quite fit that category). I just think it's kind of nuts to adopt that stance at this early point in the process.

[El Gordo]

We don't know this yet. Take a look at the fantastic OP by csgordos on JJ. Based on what I read there, I an now suspecting that Johnson will start the year on the DL. A lot of additional developments can and will take place over the next few weeks. So I think it's way too premature to try gaming the system, hoping that Player A fails so that Player B with more upside can make the club. We may need BOTH A and B. Now if it's coming down to the wire and we're really down to Eaton vs. Penn or Eaton vs. Bass for the final spot on the roster, even I would be rooting for Eaton to "fail" at that point -- as I not only acknowledge, but also fully agree with, the logic that guys with upside for the future are valuable commodities that I would be loath to throw away (I don't know that Pauley would quite fit that category). I just think it's kind of nuts to adopt that stance at this early point in the process.I agree it's nuts to adopt any stance this early in the process. I'm just trying to characteriize the position of the I hope Eaton Fails crowd. Too many variables now IMO.

[RShack]

We don't know this yet. Take a look at the fantastic OP by csgordos on JJ. Based on what I read there, I an now suspecting that Johnson will start the year on the DL. A lot of additional developments can and will take place over the next few weeks. So I think it's way too premature to try gaming the system, hoping that Player A fails so that Player B with more upside can make the club. We may need BOTH A and B. Now if it's coming down to the wire and we're really down to Eaton vs. Penn or Eaton vs. Bass for the final spot on the roster, even I would be rooting for Eaton to "fail" at that point -- as I not only acknowledge, but also fully agree with, the logic that guys with upside for the future are valuable commodities that I would be loath to throw away (I don't know that Pauley would quite fit that category). I just think it's kind of nuts to adopt that stance at this early point in the process.
I agree with your basic point: that we might need both Players A and B. However, I disagree with the idea that hoping for player failure is "premature". I think it's just flat-out arrogant. The entire premise behind hoping for that is that the O's leadership is bound to make a bone-headed decision based on how somebody does in ST. Now, there could well be folks who make far too big a deal about how a given player does in a few exhibition games in ST, but I don't know why anybody would conclude that AM is the leader of that pack.

Regardless of who does fine in ST and who doesn't, he's gonna make a bunch of decisions, and some of them will be iffy ones, just because of the short-term P-situation. He's gonna be doing a balancing act that puts the priority on the future while at the same time trying to ensure that the BP isn't toast by the AS-game. How that fact means that fans should be rooting for somebody to fail is beyond me. The only way it makes any sense whatsoever is if the baseline assumption is that AM is not only prone to doing stupid things that sacrifice the future, but is also such an idiot about it that we need player failure to somehow take the decision out of his hands.

In the case of Eaton, he is a spare part. Nothing more, nothing less. God forbid we should have a spare part if by the end of ST it looks like we need one. What's especially ironic about this is that, should Eaton be on the team, he will be there in lieu of a kid-P who AM thinks should be in the minors. Thus, keeping Eaton around will be a case of AM taking steps to protect the future by not messing with some kid-P's development by throwing him to the lions before he's ready. Yet if that's what happens, he will be criticized for (get this!) taking too much of a short-term view. I think it is more accurate to say that the short-term view is to say, "What the hell, just roll the dice, throw some kids out there, see what happens to them, and let the future take care of itself".

[scOtt]

Fascinating thread! A true classic.

[Orioles West]

Then give his spot to guys like Bass and Waters...Guys who have nothing left to prove in the minors but could potentially be a piece long term.

Let me put it another way...Asking you and anyone else in favor of Eaton.

Give me your 12 or 13 man staff with Eaton in it...Who else comprises it for you?


I'm not in favor of Eaton. The point of my post was IF he is the best TEMPORARY option, while some young arms mature, then why want him to fail?

What I AM in favor of, is a functional MLB staff until the team determines the younger talent is ready for a shot at the show.

If Eaton can contribute is still a very legitimate question and concern, I get that. But if the Orioles don't think any of the younger pitchers are ready or able to pitch MLB baseball, then Eaton will eat some innings and let those with better potential have time to get ready.

To use your specific examples, what if the team doesn't think Bass or Waters have MLB ability, that they have each gone as far as they can go?

I don't think the O's would even take a look at Eaton if they didn't have some serious concerns about their borderline pitchers that are out of options or nearly out of options.

Honestly, I'd much rather see a younger pitcher get that spot, regardless, but if the people watching them much closer, everyday don't think they are a better option than Eaton, I can't pull for the guy to fail.

I have to hope they are right and he wins those 9-10 games and a 4.8ish ERA the Birds were looking for from a player like Looper.

If I played GM for a day, Eaton wouldn't be there, but I'm not in that clubhouse through every inning of spring training.



-Don