Reimold is a beast..gotta get him here soon

[Roy Firestone]

Hes got an RBI in a third of his AB's. Hes hitting close to .420. He has 6 HR in 60 AB's.Two more today. His strikeouts are down. Theres still a few of you out there who dont believe. I do now.Hes a monster in Norfolk.What are they gonna do?
This franchise has ignored him for so long, they cant keep ignoring him now.Maybe you bring up Wieters and Reimold and send down Albers and Lou.
Nolan is rollin'.

[JTrea81]

He'll be up at the end of May, if Pie continues to struggle IMO. That should put Pie at his 100 AB evaluation.

They can't ignore Reimold's production for much longer.

Reimold owns Price BTW...

[ChaosLex]

Trade him for a stud pitching prospect.

Would the Reds trade Homer Bailey for him straight up? If so, would you pull the trigger on that deal?

[Agent0]

I agree, but I'd still like to keep Pie as the 4th OF.

So in order to do that, we'll probably have to wait for another injury to a non pitcher/catcher. As soon as we get that, he should be the next guy up.

[GnatsFan]

Curious if those who thought Pie wouldn't be blocking Reimold [because Reimold needed a year or so at AAA] are still feeling the same way?

No way the Pie experiment ends for at least another 2 months (and that's only if he isn't showing any flashes) and if Scott isn't traded (doubt that happens) Reimold may not see the Majors until September.

Interesting.

[Mackus]

I still think Pie deserves until at least early June. Give him two solid months, that's enough time to make a decent judgement of him. Of course if he's really, really struggling and Reimold continues to just dominate, that could change the time frame, but I think early June is a good point.

I'm still hopeful Pie will put things together, but I am also very excited to see what Reimold can do when he gets up to the majors. He's certainly answered all the questions so far at Norfolk, although obviously it's still incredibly early.

This is one of those good problems.

[Jagwar]

Trade him for a stud pitching prospect.

Would the Reds trade Homer Bailey for him straight up? If so, would you pull the trigger on that deal?

I don't know the answer to your first question, but as for the second, I wouldn't pull the trigger. IMO the O's need more position prospects not more pitchers.

[Agent0]

Curious if those who thought Pie wouldn't be blocking Reimold [because Reimold needed a year or so at AAA] are still feeling the same way?

No way the Pie experiment ends for at least another 2 months (and that's only if he isn't showing any flashes) and if Scott isn't traded (doubt that happens) Reimold may not see the Majors until September.

Interesting.

I was concerned that a trade for Pie meant that the O's were down on Nolan. However, I think it was worth the risk to get him and we still can have both guys up here (though I want Nolan playing nearly every day if they call him up).

Lou will probably go down for Mora...and then any injury to a position player would be a chance for Nolan to come up. I'm not rooting for injuries but you know it will happen.

[RZNJ]

Reimold is practically off the charts right now. He deserves a callup but let's see where he is one month from now. If he's still en fuego, then he'll force the O's to do something. Without an injury occurring, Pie will really have to get it in gear. I can't see the O's moving Scott or Huff just to make room for Reimold. If Pie isn't in some kind of groove by the end of May & Reimld is hitting close to the pace he is right now, then Pie would lose his starting job. If Pie is hitting by then, the decision becomes really, really difficult. I've always liked Reimold but he's doing better than I could have hoped for. .420? 3 stolen bases in 3 attempts? Remember the questions about him hitting top level pitching and perhaps feeding off of the weak in AA? Two homers off of David Price so ar this year. A .420 average against AAA pitching. Are there any doubters still out there? He's hit and hit for power at every level. I still say we need to give Pie time because he's a talent as well but there's no denying that Reimold's time is close at hand.

[rolliefingers]

Trade him for a stud pitching prospect.

Would the Reds trade Homer Bailey for him straight up? If so, would you pull the trigger on that deal?

Not sure about Bailey, but that's a great idea if someone's willing to give up some talent. Reimold might not share anything with Delmon Young except a position and power hitting, but...

[notfast]

Scott DH

Reimold LF

Pie/Montanez as 4th OF? Which one stays?

[Mackus]

Pie/Montanez as 4th OF? Which one stays?
That's a tough choice. Montanez, especially if we are using the assumption that Pie blew his chance and Reimold is coming up for him, is clearly the better hitter. Pie, obviously, is the better defender and can play CF, which Montanez can't really do. If Pie can put up a low 700s OPS then he should be the guy because of his ability to play CF. If not, then probably go with Montanez and either get away with poor defense in CF when Jones needs to come out or add anther backup OF who can play CF.

[Agent0]

Scott DH

Reimold LF

Pie/Montanez as 4th OF? Which one stays?

Lou will probably be optioned when Mora comes back. I don't think it's a choice between Lou and Pie.

[notfast]

I agree, but in the long term *later this year* -- If Montanez is hitting, you can't leave him down at norfolk....

[Mark Carver]

How has the franchise ignored him for so long, when he's only been in the organization for 4 years. And 2008 was his first year that he was actually healthy...

2008 = 139 games
2007 = 59 games
2006 = 119 games
2005 = 73 games

[Agent0]

I agree, but in the long term *later this year* -- If Montanez is hitting, you can't leave him down at norfolk....

This situation will sort itself out. In a way, Lou and Nolan are redundant anyway if Jones and Nick are givens. We could have them both up and get rid of Pie, but I think the O's were willing to give Pie most if not all of this year when they made the Olson deal.

I'm thinking that one of Lou and Nolan will have to bite the bullet until playing time opens up next year. Of course, the more injuries we have this year, the more they both be given ML looks up here.

The O's shouldn't feel pressured to do anything since Nolan and Lou have all their options left.

[RZNJ]

How has the franchise ignored him for so long, when he's only been in the organization for 4 years. And 2008 was his first year that he was actually healthy...

2008 = 139 games
2007 = 59 games
2006 = 119 games
2005 = 73 games

I think you're stretching here. 2005 was his debut season and he was healthy for the time after he was drafted. He hurt his back and foot in 2006 but still played 119 of a possible 140 games. That ain't bad. Last year of course he played the full season. I mean, really 2007 was the only time he missed a significant chunk of the season, although I guess you could say that he was not completely healthy even when he did play in the second half of 2006. IMO, the O's never ignored Reimold. Many jumped to conclusions based on the fact that he wasn't invited to ST in 2008. However, the O's sent Reimold to the AFL for three years running. That's where you send you top guys. Why would they send him there if they were ignoring him?

[Osfan13]

If Reimold continues to hit into June and Pie is still a sub- .200 hitter who is struggling in the field, the I can see a Reimold/Weiters call up mid-summer with Moeller and ??? leaving.

[Hank Scorpio]

I'd see if I could find a way to get Reimold some time at first base.

I think his bat would play there, and I think he could likely handle the defensive responsibilities as well.

[The Rick]

All I know is that this is such a good problem to have for once. It's good to know that if Pie doesn't pan out, we have Reimold behind him who very likely will. A lot of people are all up in a frenzy about what is really honestly a good problem to have.

[Bond007]

I was at the game today in Norfolk. Didn't realize he was such a big dude.

His 2 HRs were BOMBs. He hit the crap out of them.

[Hank Scorpio]

If by some act of God Pie pulls it together offensively, I really would consider giving Reimold a look at first base.

[GnatsFan]

All I know is that this is such a good problem to have for once. It's good to know that if Pie doesn't pan out, we have Reimold behind him who very likely will. A lot of people are all up in a frenzy about what is really honestly a good problem to have.

Depends how committed the organization is to Pie. If its an honest tryout then its a good problem to have... if there is some sort of Daniel Cabrera attachment to Pie's tools and they hold onto him in hopes he turns the corner (assuming he hasn't already)... then this could be a bad problem.

All comes down to what is the measuring stick to determine if Pie hasn't panned out? :scratchchinhmm:

[blakesta]

If by some act of God Pie pulls it together offensively, I really would consider giving Reimold a look at first base.

Honestly, I really do not see Pie ever equaling the production that Reimold would give this offense.

[The Rick]

Depends how committed the organization is to Pie. If its an honest tryout then its a good problem to have... if there is some sort of Daniel Cabrera attachment to Pie's tools and they hold onto him in hopes he turns the corner (assuming he hasn't already)... then this could be a bad problem.

All comes down to what is the measuring stick to determine if Pie hasn't panned out? :scratchchinhmm:

This is a fair point, but the thing about DCab is that he would tease the organization with actual results, making everyone think he had rounded the corner and was on his way up.

This would be much more difficult for Pie to do unless he actually turned into a solid producer.

I fail to see a scenario here that would make this a bad situation for the O's. Even if they traded Reimold for good talent and Reimold went on to produce for another organization.

[Dipper9]

If Reimold continues to hit into June and Pie is still a sub- .200 hitter who is struggling in the field, the I can see a Reimold/Weiters call up mid-summer with Moeller and ??? leaving.

If Reimold and especially Wieters are still in AAA in June while Pie and Zauny continue to hit under my weight, then we have some serious issues in our front office.

I was in section 82 today. Pie still doesn't get it. He caused Izturis' error on Saturday night, and today he tried to take the throw on a double away from Jones in center when Jones clearly has the better arm. He also could have caught that ball that was down the line. He got a very late jump on the ball. His speed makes up for his lack of judgement, but he still has very poor baseball instincts. The sooner Reimold takes his spot in left, the better this team will be.

[RZNJ]

If Reimold and especially Wieters are still in AAA in June while Pie and Zauny continue to hit under my weight, then we have some serious issues in our front office.

I was in section 82 today. Pie still doesn't get it. He caused Izturis' error on Saturday night, and today he tried to take the throw on a double away from Jones in center when Jones clearly has the better arm. He also could have caught that ball that was down the line. He got a very late jump on the ball. His speed makes up for his lack of judgement, but he still has very poor baseball instincts. The sooner Reimold takes his spot in left, the better this team will be.



Pie must be pretty amazing actually. There's no ball he shouldn't catch according to some people. :eek::D


He's also never done anything right. That is truly amazing.

[GnatsFan]

This is a fair point, but the thing about DCab is that he would tease the organization with actual results, making everyone think he had rounded the corner and was on his way up.

This would be much more difficult for Pie to do unless he actually turned into a solid producer.

True, but you never know... we've seen it already.

A bunch of not so good defensive plays that make you cringe and then *poof* he pulls a sensational catch out of his hat in Arlington.

Just when you think he can't hit his way out of a paper bag. *BOOM* A pretty looking homerun or a 2 hit day.

These potential guys are quite a scary breed... you never want to give up on them. :mwahaha:

Hopefully, he turns into a complete stud or a complete dud because anything in between makes me worry. ;)

[Stotle]

If by some act of God Pie pulls it together offensively, I really would consider giving Reimold a look at first base.

I've actually been pretty impressed with Pie's approach the last few games. Not there yet (obviously) but it looks like improvement to me.

[Hank Scorpio]

I've actually been pretty impressed with Pie's approach the last few games. Not there yet (obviously) but it looks like improvement to me.

So have I.

He's going to have his struggles against lefties, but I think he could end up becoming Adam Jones-lite.

I'm still not sure there's enough power in his frame to hold down left field offensively, but if his defense ends up being that advanced, it might not matter.

Any thoughts as to whether Reimold could handle first base?

[Three Run Homer]

I've actually been pretty impressed with Pie's approach the last few games. Not there yet (obviously) but it looks like improvement to me.

I've been skeptical on Pie, but I have to admit that his plate appearances lately have been encouraging. He's laying off pitches out of the strike zone and he's working the count. His overall BB/K numbers do not suggest a hitter who is overmatched. I think he could bust out anytime now. Given that his minor league numbers scream "potential impact bat", the O's have to give him the better part of the season to try to turn the corner. The O's gave Markakis and Jones the same opportunity and I'm sure they're glad they did.

But I'm also a big Reimold fan, and he's done nothing lately to suggest he's not ready to rake in the majors. He needs a shot too.

I think it's time to start shopping Luke Scott, and I think it's time to give Reimold some starts at 1B.

[Stotle]

So have I.

He's going to have his struggles against lefties, but I think he could end up becoming Adam Jones-lite.

I'm still not sure there's enough power in his frame to hold down left field offensively, but if his defense ends up being that advanced, it might not matter.

Any thoughts as to whether Reimold could handle first base?

I don't think it's worth finding out yet. My focus would be to get Pie confident, established and useful. Give Reimold a call-up in August. Let Pie compete for a job next Spring, but have him pencilled in as a 4th OF if he hasn't progressed enough. If he is a good everyday player, you can figure out whether or not Reimold needs to be 1B/DH to get the ABs.

Short answer, Reimold could handle 1B. Bonus: he has the reach and the size to actually profile as a solid 1B, frame-wise. He's much more valuable in a COF, so that's where I keep him until next Spring. If nothing has changed then (someone moved, someone failed, new signing, etc.), explore position switch.

[ccbird]

So have I.

He's going to have his struggles against lefties, but I think he could end up becoming Adam Jones-lite.

I'm still not sure there's enough power in his frame to hold down left field offensively, but if his defense ends up being that advanced, it might not matter.

Any thoughts as to whether Reimold could handle first base?

Defensively yeah, offensively probably. If Pie establishes himself in left and Huff leaves in FA I think there is a good chance one of Reimold or Scott would be considered as an in house replacement at 1st.


BTW... I'm a big Reimold fan and am ecstatic to see him off to this start but let's keep in mind that he has been a very streaky player over his career. A 3/30 run could be just around the corner.

[Mike B]

Trade him for a stud pitching prospect.

Would the Reds trade Homer Bailey for him straight up? If so, would you pull the trigger on that deal?

Go back and look at Bailey's numbers. He has numbers very similar to the ones that got Penn traded out of the org. He is still very young but his numbers at AAA were awful last year and his brief time in the majors has not been good. His walks/hits to IP is bad. I think there is a tendency for people to fall in love with people who are brought up as potential acquisitions, without ever seeing them or researching them. I fell pretty confident that if Bailey was in the Oriole system many would be posting trade idea's for him. Out of here idea's.

I will stick with Reimold.

[ChaosLex]

Go back and look at Bailey's numbers. He has numbers very similar to the ones that got Penn traded out of the org. He is still very young but his numbers at AAA were awful last year and his brief time in the majors has not been good. His walks/hits to IP is bad. I think there is a tendency for people to fall in love with people who are brought up as potential acquisitions, without ever seeing them or researching them. I fell pretty confident that if Bailey was in the Oriole system many would be posting trade idea's for him. Out of here idea's.

I will stick with Reimold.

I'd prefer to keep Reimold; however, I wouldn't be surprised if Pie becomes a serviceable LF and the O's look to trade Nolan while he's hot in AAA. If that's the case, I doubt you'd do any better than Bailey. Yes, he's stunk in the majors (and as of late in AAA), but he has youth and upside. That's exactly what this team needs now.

Now if the O's decide to convert Reimold to 1B (and in a perfect world, they would), everything would work out perfectly. :clap3:

[ThisIsOurHouse]

Pie has had only two strike puts in his last 14 at bats, also he had 3 walks. I think he has improved his bat since the start of the season considering he had 11 strike outs in his first 11 games. I see progress, I think by the end of May he can get up to a .250 average.
On the discussion on whether he or Montanez should be the 4th OF if Reimold is brought up. I think Pie would be a better fit because he can play all OF positions and he adds a boost of speed. Montanez does add his own tools in his defense, but I'd rather have Pie than Montanez.
Lets say we trade Scott, do we bring up Reimold to play DH when we have Wiggington?

[Owen21]

Hes got an RBI in a third of his AB's. Hes hitting close to .420. He has 6 HR in 60 AB's.Two more today. His strikeouts are down. Theres still a few of you out there who dont believe. I do now.Hes a monster in Norfolk.What are they gonna do?
This franchise has ignored him for so long, they cant keep ignoring him now.Maybe you bring up Wieters and Reimold and send down Albers and Lou.
Nolan is rollin'.

He went deep off David Price !

[Stotle]

Go back and look at Bailey's numbers. He has numbers very similar to the ones that got Penn traded out of the org. He is still very young but his numbers at AAA were awful last year and his brief time in the majors has not been good. His walks/hits to IP is bad. I think there is a tendency for people to fall in love with people who are brought up as potential acquisitions, without ever seeing them or researching them. I fell pretty confident that if Bailey was in the Oriole system many would be posting trade idea's for him. Out of here idea's.

I will stick with Reimold.

To Bailey's credit, today vs. Toledo:

6.1 IP, 4 H, 2 ER, 2 BB, 15 SO, 1 HR

[Hank Scorpio]

To Bailey's credit, today vs. Toledo:

6.1 IP, 4 H, 2 ER, 2 BB, 15 SO, 1 HR

That's not terrible at all.

[Mike B]

To Bailey's credit, today vs. Toledo:

6.1 IP, 4 H, 2 ER, 2 BB, 15 SO, 1 HR

Ouch, 15 K. A pretty impressive line.

[Flosman]

I think people need to remember Reimold has had 60 ABs this hot before. Just like Pie needing 200 ABs to prove he sucks, Reimold needs a couple more ABs to prove he is the next Barry Bonds. This is not to say that I would think the O's were making a mistake calling him up. I am just saying that Patience is the correct paths for Pie and Riemold, IMO.

[doctorbj]

I really want Reimold here, but, as I've asked in another thread:

Who plays CF if Pie is not here and Jones is hurt, needs a day off, etc?

Barry

[Frobby]

How has the franchise ignored him for so long, when he's only been in the organization for 4 years. And 2008 was his first year that he was actually healthy...

2008 = 139 games
2007 = 59 games
2006 = 119 games
2005 = 73 games

Exactly right. And the Os have sent him to the AFL three years in a row to try to make up the ABs he lost. They have hardly ignored him

His performance in ST and in Norfolk has been very impressive. He will get his shot eventually.

[JTrea81]

That's not terrible at all.

That's easily his best start of the season. He got thrown out of his last start vs. Toledo and has just been mediocre. He lowered his ERA to 6.20 in 4 starts with that performance and he's given up 6 dingers on the season making him a horrible play in OPACY.

Just say no to Bailey.

[Hank Scorpio]

That's easily his best start of the season. He got thrown out of his last start vs. Toledo and has just been mediocre. He lowered his ERA to 6.20 in 4 starts with that performance and he's given up 6 dingers on the season making him a horrible play in OPACY.

Just say no to Bailey.

I certainly was not advocating we trade Reimold for him.

Just sayin'... that's an impressive line.

[The Rick]

That's easily his best start of the season. He got thrown out of his last start vs. Toledo and has just been mediocre. He lowered his ERA to 6.20 in 4 starts with that performance and he's given up 6 dingers on the season making him a horrible play in OPACY.

Just say no to Bailey.

To the Bizarro Endorsement (http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80017&page=3) thread we go...

[wildcard]

First off....

Reimold is very unlikely to hit for a 1200 OPS for another month. He is a streaky hitter and he is on a hot streak at the moment.

Second......

Pie is already showing more patience at the plate which will translate to better at bats and a high average. He probably will be hitting better in a month. He is starting to look more comfortable in left also.

So......

I would expect that the decision will not be easy to move Riemold to left.

The one thing I am sure of is MacPhail would rather have two or three good options then none. And he is up to the responsibility of deciding what to do.

Should be fun to watch.

[crowmst3k!]

Trade him for a stud pitching prospect.

Would the Reds trade Homer Bailey for him straight up? If so, would you pull the trigger on that deal?

That is a good question, because as much as pitching is needed, this team will need as much pop as they can get in their lineup once the pitchers come through. The Yanks and the Sux are just absolutely stacked in their lineups.

[Sports Guy]

Reimold has gone through these hot spells before...He is like Luke Scott...Very streaky.

But he does deserve to be here regardless of that.

Problem is, there is no room for him right now....Pie deserves a lot more time and the Orioles are jammed up at DH.

If I were the Orioles, I would be looking to deal Huff or Scott now...I know deals never happen this early and nothing will likely happen but I would look to move one of them sooner than later.

Despite what a select few what to make everyone believe, Pie hasn't looked as bad this year as his stats show....His defense hasn't be Berroa-esque, although you would think it is by the way some talk on here.

So, with that being said, if Pie can keep having good plate appearances, improve his approach and continue to get adjusted in LF, he is going to show that he needs to be the starter in LF because he will be better defensively than Reimold.

So, that brings us back to the need to get rid of one of Scott or Huff...That way Reimold can get everyday at bats...He could also get some time in the OF...With Pie on the team and Reimold able to play either corner, there should be enough games where Nolan can get in the OF.

So, look at Reimold in one more month...Give him another month in AAA and Pie another month up here playing everyday and see what is going on....By that time, you are getting closer to potential trade time and Huff, Reimold, Pie and Scott can all be evaluated.

[Old#5fan]

If by some act of God Pie pulls it together offensively, I really would consider giving Reimold a look at first base.

Most big men make better firstbasemen than they do outfielders. I agree, Reimold should be converted to a first baseman, which the Orioles don't really have in the pipeline anyway at least now as far along as Reimold seems to be.

[Anonymous]

Reimold has gone through these hot spells before...He is like Luke Scott...Very streaky.

But he does deserve to be here regardless of that.

Problem is, there is no room for him right now....Pie deserves a lot more time and the Orioles are jammed up at DH.

If I were the Orioles, I would be looking to deal Huff or Scott now...I know deals never happen this early and nothing will likely happen but I would look to move one of them sooner than later.

Despite what a select few what to make everyone believe, Pie hasn't looked as bad this year as his stats show....His defense hasn't be Berroa-esque, although you would think it is by the way some talk on here.

So, with that being said, if Pie can keep having good plate appearances, improve his approach and continue to get adjusted in LF, he is going to show that he needs to be the starter in LF because he will be better defensively than Reimold.

So, that brings us back to the need to get rid of one of Scott or Huff...That way Reimold can get everyday at bats...He could also get some time in the OF...With Pie on the team and Reimold able to play either corner, there should be enough games where Nolan can get in the OF.

So, look at Reimold in one more month...Give him another month in AAA and Pie another month up here playing everyday and see what is going on....By that time, you are getting closer to potential trade time and Huff, Reimold, Pie and Scott can all be evaluated.Good post all around, SG. But I would keep Montanez (whom you did not mention) in the 25-man mix.

[Sports Guy]

Good post all around, SG. But I would keep Montanez (whom you did not mention) in the 25-man mix.

Possible depending on the shape of the roster but yes, he should be able to be on the team as a back up OFer, which is all he is.

[rolliefingers]

Reimold has gone through these hot spells before...He is like Luke Scott...Very streaky.

But he does deserve to be here regardless of that.

Problem is, there is no room for him right now....Pie deserves a lot more time and the Orioles are jammed up at DH.

If I were the Orioles, I would be looking to deal Huff or Scott now...I know deals never happen this early and nothing will likely happen but I would look to move one of them sooner than later.

Despite what a select few what to make everyone believe, Pie hasn't looked as bad this year as his stats show....His defense hasn't be Berroa-esque, although you would think it is by the way some talk on here.

So, with that being said, if Pie can keep having good plate appearances, improve his approach and continue to get adjusted in LF, he is going to show that he needs to be the starter in LF because he will be better defensively than Reimold.

So, that brings us back to the need to get rid of one of Scott or Huff...That way Reimold can get everyday at bats...He could also get some time in the OF...With Pie on the team and Reimold able to play either corner, there should be enough games where Nolan can get in the OF.

So, look at Reimold in one more month...Give him another month in AAA and Pie another month up here playing everyday and see what is going on....By that time, you are getting closer to potential trade time and Huff, Reimold, Pie and Scott can all be evaluated.I agree. Scott, Huff and Reimold should all be shopped in an attempt to sell high and clear room. Obviously I'd rather trade Huff and Scott, in that order, but if someone offers you a good deal for Reimold, we should consider it.

[foxfield]

Patience....

Pie is going to get all the time he needs and it would be foolish to not do so. Reimold is looking like a beast and that is great.

Both players are where they need to be...this is not an either or situation that needs to have a resolution by the end of May.

It is an unusual issue for the O's, but also one that signals that maybe we are on the right track. Now if Reimold has these numbers in August and he doesnt get a sniff, then we'll see.

I think this could work out well for both Pie and Reimold. What that means to the O's is nothing but good news.

[JTrea81]

Chad Moeller right now is outhitting Felix Pie. He may be looking better at the plate, but it's not translating into anything.

His BA has sunk to .167 and he now has a line of .167/.259/.229/.488

That .488 OPS is dead last in the AL for LFers.

He's not going to last until June if he keeps up that poor production.

[hoosiers]

Our FO needs to figure a way to get Reimold at-bats on the major league club while continuing with the Pie experiment in LF.

[csgordos]

Most big men make better firstbasemen than they do outfielders. I agree, Reimold should be converted to a first baseman, which the Orioles don't really have in the pipeline anyway at least now as far along as Reimold seems to be.

I don't know about that. I saw Snyder today and he looks like a good 1st baseman with a bat. Don't forget he has NO, and I mean, NO protection around him in the order at Bowie. Still not a bad idea with Nolan to 1st and maybe Snyder back to 3rd, but didn't we do like 3000 threads on stuff like that this winter?

[JTrea81]

And for those wondering about Jones and Markakis because people like to compare them to Pie:

Markakis - March/April 2006:

74 PA, .182/.270/.288/.558, 2 HR, 5 RBI, 7 BB, 16 K

Jones - March/April 2008:

103 PA, .263/.311/.389/.700, 1 HR, 8 RBI, 6 BB, 23 K

And keep in mind Jones and Markakis were only 22...

[Moose Milligan]

And for those wondering about Jones and Markakis because people like to compare them to Pie:

Markakis - March/April 2006:

74 PA, .182/.270/.288/.558, 2 HR, 5 RBI, 7 BB, 16 K

Jones - March/April 2008:

103 PA, .263/.311/.389/.700, 1 HR, 8 RBI, 6 BB, 23 K

And keep in mind Jones and Markakis were only 22...

Why do I get the idea you're rooting for Pie to fail?

[Sports Guy]

And for those wondering about Jones and Markakis because people like to compare them to Pie:

Markakis - March/April 2006:

74 PA, .182/.270/.288/.558, 2 HR, 5 RBI, 7 BB, 16 K

Jones - March/April 2008:

103 PA, .263/.311/.389/.700, 1 HR, 8 RBI, 6 BB, 23 K

And keep in mind Jones and Markakis were only 22...

Did they also have a 194 BABIP?

If Pie's BABIP was just 250ish(which is still unlucky), he would probably have an OPS similar to Jones.

He has a big spread between BA and OBP because he is taking walks and that is very encouraging.

He isn't having many bad plate appearances.

[Moose Milligan]

Did they also have a 194 BABIP?

If Pie's BABIP was just 250ish(which is still unlucky), he would probably have an OPS similar to Jones.

He has a big spread between BA and OBP because he is taking walks and that is very encouraging.

He isn't having many bad plate appearances.

Right.

This is one of those times where batting average isn't telling the whole story.

[JTrea81]

Why do I get the idea you're rooting for Pie to fail?

I've seen enough of Pie and want the better player (Reimold) on the team. I know the Orioles won't make the switch though. They'll give him another 50 or so PAs...

[Moose Milligan]

I've seen enough of Pie and want the better player (Reimold) on the team. I know the Orioles won't make the switch though. They'll give him another 50 or so PAs...

Oh, ok.

And how much of Reimold have you seen?

[JTrea81]

Oh, ok.

And how much of Reimold have you seen?

I'm seeing what he's doing in AAA right now and what he did in the AA playoffs.

[JJLinn29]

I'd love to know what drug he takes before he posts here...drug dealers across the world will be chomping at the bit to get a hold of it.

[Moose Milligan]

I'm seeing what he's doing in AAA right now and what he did in the AA playoffs.

And so if Reimold comes up and struggles for his first few months, you should be calling for us to get rid of him and find someone else.

Fair is fair.

[Rex Thunder]

Hes got an RBI in a third of his AB's. Hes hitting close to .420. He has 6 HR in 60 AB's.Two more today. His strikeouts are down. Theres still a few of you out there who dont believe. I do now.Hes a monster in Norfolk.What are they gonna do?
This franchise has ignored him for so long, they cant keep ignoring him now.Maybe you bring up Wieters and Reimold and send down Albers and Lou.
Nolan is rollin'.

I have to agree with that- but damn, poor Lou. Reimold is just demanding it right now.

Surprised noone has brought up the idea of trading him away yet actually. :)

[JTrea81]

And so if Reimold comes up and struggles for his first few months, you should be calling for us to get rid of him and find someone else.

Fair is fair.

I'll give him 275+ ABs just like Pie has received before he came to the Orioles...

[MurphDogg]

I'll give him 275+ ABs just like Pie has received before he came to the Orioles...

Over three seasons being jerked up and down from AAA to playing sporadically for the big club?

[PHRESH]

I'd pass on Bailey, but how many of you would trade Reimold straight up for Wood?

[wildcard]

I don't think that MacPhail will feel any pressure to trade someone to make room for Riemold or Montanez during the 2009 season. They will be called up to replace injured players. That is their opportunity. Barring injuries their next best opportunity is September.

Huff may well get extended mid year.
Scott is adjusting well at DH.

Pie will get every chance to succeed and he is showing improvement. He is taking more pitches and improving his pitch recognition. He is looking more comfortable in left. He will have lapses. But overall he is getting better.

When the O's call up Wieters in June the lineup will be so deep that offense will not be a problem on this team. The need for offense is not going to press the O's to promote Reimold. Injuries might.

[crawjo]

This shouldn't be about Pie. It's not that he's doing anything particularly wrong, it's just that Reimold has performed so well he simply needs to be up here to be given a chance to perform. You can't have solid prospects destroying AAA pitching like this and not reward them for it.

[Boston Dave]

I'd see if I could find a way to get Reimold some time at first base.

I think his bat would play there, and I think he could likely handle the defensive responsibilities as well.

Good thought, but I would think if they thought he could handle first they would have tried him there already. It's obviously a position of need in the near future. Or maybe it's more not wasting his arm on an infield spot.

[UMDTerrapins]

I think it's a reasonable assumption that between Pie, Reimold and Montanez, we have left field well covered for the next 3 years or so. One of them or more will likely prove worthy of a full time job. I'm frustrated with Montanez sitting on the bench, I'd rather have him playing every day in AAA.

It's hard to make the "I worry that there are too many holes in Reimold's swing to be effective against ML pitching" while he's crushing the ball in AAA. But I still think Montanez will give the best offensive production of the 3. I do hate having young hitters blocked from playing time on a team that is in the developing talent stage.

[DrungoHazewood]

And so if Reimold comes up and struggles for his first few months, you should be calling for us to get rid of him and find someone else.

Fair is fair.

Replace "months" with "minutes" and that would align better with our Pie experience.

[DrungoHazewood]

I'll give him 275+ ABs just like Pie has received before he came to the Orioles...

Would you yo-yo him up and down to Norfolk four or five times, making sure to impress upon him that his career depended on his next four at bats, and that the Orioles are not in a position to have a kid failing on them in the lineup? Oh, and maybe go out and trade for Reed Johnson and give him Reimold's job for a while to make a point. You know, just to make things equal.

[Moose Milligan]

Would you yo-yo him up and down to Norfolk four or five times, making sure to impress upon him that his career depended on his next four at bats, and that the Orioles are not in a position to have a kid failing on them in the lineup? Oh, and maybe go out and trade for Reed Johnson and give him Reimold's job for a while to make a point. You know, just to make things equal.

No, that doesn't matter to the Trea.

Like I said...he wants Pie to fail, for whatever reason. He'll never admit it though.

[Dipper9]

No, that doesn't matter to the Trea.

Like I said...he wants Pie to fail, for whatever reason. He'll never admit it though.

I won't speak for JTrea but I am starting to hope he fails just because of the arrogance of some of the posters on here (NOT referring to you Moose.) It seems like every time someone has ANYTHING even remotely disparaging to say about Pie, about 50 people come out to defend the guy. I mentioned on page three of this thread that I was there yesterday, sitting about 50 feet from Pie, and had some observations about his jump on the ball and other things. I was met with a blanket "some people just want him to fail" response with ZERO supporting facts. If someone (the same guy who keeps trolling every one of my Pie posts) wants to dispute what I observed on Sunday, go to it, but don't give me this "Dip just doesn't like Pie" bullcrap. I GET that a lot of you want to give him the season to show what he's got. Fine. I understand your point, and truthfully, now that we have traded for him, we DO need to give him time. BUT, don't try to disguise the fact that the "experiment" with Pie IS INDEED holding Reimold down. Some of you are ready to change Reimold's position based on some theory that Pie MAY get it together. Others want to trade Huff or Scott or even Reimold based on the theory that Pie MAY become something. It boggles my mind. I understand letting him play out this experiment and see what happens, but how can you trade guys before seeing any factual evidence that Pie WILL become something? Its mind boggling. My point in all of this is that there are truly two ways to look at this Pie experiment. Those of us who think he will become nothing more than a 4th outfielder are not WRONG to think that way, contrary to what (my troll) and others may think.

[RZNJ]

It must have been page2 because you have no posts on page 3. OMG! I must be the troll. How dare someone question your observations! What boggles the mind is how, according to certain posters (I won't name names), Pie does something wrong on EVERY play. You could be right on the play that Pie didn't get to down the line off of Andruw Jones. However, you no doubt have proven and even admitted a bias so I take anything you say on the subject with a huge grain of salt. So when you want me to believe that Pie got a poor jump on a ball that was

1. Not hit directly at him so no question whether to go in or back
2. Not hit anywhere close to him as to question which direction to turn
3. Hit hard and far away from him to leave no question that he'd have to run hard

So you want me to believe that Luke Scott or Nolan Reimold or Lou Montanez somehow would have reacted to that ball quicker than Felix Pie, yeah I'll question it. And if you think this is trolling than get used to it because every time I see something I disagree with or question I'm calling you out on it. Can't stand the heat? Take off the Betty Crocker apron!

BTW, something tells me that your mind is easily boggled. Good luck with that.

[Mackus]

BUT, don't try to disguise the fact that the "experiment" with Pie IS INDEED holding Reimold down.Pie isn't currently blocking Reimold.

He may at some point, but if we had Scott in LF and Wigginton at DH everyday (which would be the case if we never traded for Pie) Reimold would not be up this soon.

He would probably be up sooner without Pie's presence, but he certainly is not being blocked right now. Montanez would have been the first guy called up to be a backup, just the same. Reimold won't be up here until we have a spot for him to play everyday. And the team almost certainly wants him to get some solid time at Norfolk before making the jump to MLB. Pie eventually will probably be blocking him (either justifiably or not once June or July rolls around), but he definitely is not holding him down right now, the FO is doing that and would be doing the same even if Pie wasn't here.

[Dipper9]

It must have been page2 because you have no posts on page 3. OMG! I must be the troll. How dare someone question your observations! What boggles the mind is how, according to certain posters (I won't name names), Pie does something wrong on EVERY play. You could be right on the play that Pie didn't get to down the line off of Andruw Jones. However, you no doubt have proven and even admitted a bias so I take anything you say on the subject with a huge grain of salt. So when you want me to believe that Pie got a poor jump on a ball that was

1. Not hit directly at him so no question whether to go in or back
2. Not hit anywhere close to him as to question which direction to turn
3. Hit hard and far away from him to leave no question that he'd have to run hard

So you want me to believe that Luke Scott or Nolan Reimold or Lou Montanez somehow would have reacted to that ball quicker than Felix Pie, yeah I'll question it. And if you think this is trolling than get used to it because every time I see something I disagree with or question I'm calling you out on it. Can't stand the heat? Take off the Betty Crocker apron!

BTW, something tells me that your mind is easily boggled. Good luck with that.

Your analysis of the play is what I was looking for the first time, not "you're wrong!" As for the "I can't take the heat" comment, you are quite wrong, and I would love nothing more than to continue this conversation for as long as Pie is around. For all the loving Pie and gotta give him time people, I just want to know if you'll admit it was a waste if this guy develops into nothing? I have admitted time and again (though YOU don't ever seem to read this part of my Pie opinion) that now that we traded for him, I want to see him get time and see what he's got, and I WANT to see him prove me wrong. But just because my OPINION is that he will not prove me wrong, YOU RZNJ call me wrong? Okay sir. Fine by me. I shall turn the other cheek. I guess most of you are happy with a .170 hitting outfielder. I personally expect more.

[Burg]

Your analysis of the play is what I was looking for the first time, not "you're wrong!" As for the "I can't take the heat" comment, you are quite wrong, and I would love nothing more than to continue this conversation for as long as Pie is around. For all the loving Pie and gotta give him time people, I just want to know if you'll admit it was a waste if this guy develops into nothing? I have admitted time and again (though YOU don't ever seem to read this part of my Pie opinion) that now that we traded for him, I want to see him get time and see what he's got, and I WANT to see him prove me wrong. But just because my OPINION is that he will not prove me wrong, YOU RZNJ call me wrong? Okay sir. Fine by me. I shall turn the other cheek. I guess most of you are happy with a .170 hitting outfielder. I personally expect more.

It will not be a waste because the 2009 Orioles are exactly the kind of team that can give Pie a chance. This fact, for some reason, continues to allude you. Whether or not Pie succeeds or fails DOES NOT MATTER when deciding if the decision to give him an extended look was the proper one.

The RESULT doesn't determine whether the PROCESS was correct.

[Dipper9]

It will not be a waste because the 2009 Orioles are exactly the kind of team that can give Pie a chance. This fact, for some reason, continues to allude you. Whether or not Pie succeeds or fails DOES NOT MATTER when deciding if the decision to give him an extended look was the proper one.

The RESULT doesn't determine whether the PROCESS was correct.

You and others keep going back to "This season doesn't matter so the Orioles can do this." I VERY respectfully disagree. If by June 1 we are 10 games back and looking at another lousy season, then give Pie the rest of the year to show his worth. But putting an "experiment" out there on OD and saying, "go ahead and show us what you have...we aren't going to win anyway" is not how I would run the team. Guys like Markakis and Jones you could do that because they had that special "IT" quality. Pie is very raw. I personally would not give up on a season before it even begins, but if Pie makes it, then you can all say "Thank God Dip doesn't run the club." :D

[Burg]

You and others keep going back to "This season doesn't matter so the Orioles can do this." I VERY respectfully disagree. If by June 1 we are 10 games back and looking at another lousy season, then give Pie the rest of the year to show his worth. But putting an "experiment" out there on OD and saying, "go ahead and show us what you have...we aren't going to win anyway" is not how I would run the team. Guys like Markakis and Jones you could do that because they had that special "IT" quality. Pie is very raw. I personally would not give up on a season before it even begins, but if Pie makes it, then you can all say "Thank God Dip doesn't run the club." :D

And if we continue to use this thinking we will continue to rack up losing seasons. You HAVE to give guys with Pie's record an extended look. And there is NO better time to do this than 2009.

Also, Reimold is an "experiment" too.

Will you have just as short a leash with him? Or does he have this mythical "IT" quality?

[RZNJ]

Your analysis of the play is what I was looking for the first time, not "you're wrong!" As for the "I can't take the heat" comment, you are quite wrong, and I would love nothing more than to continue this conversation for as long as Pie is around. For all the loving Pie and gotta give him time people, I just want to know if you'll admit it was a waste if this guy develops into nothing? I have admitted time and again (though YOU don't ever seem to read this part of my Pie opinion) that now that we traded for him, I want to see him get time and see what he's got, and I WANT to see him prove me wrong. But just because my OPINION is that he will not prove me wrong, YOU RZNJ call me wrong? Okay sir. Fine by me. I shall turn the other cheek. I guess most of you are happy with a .170 hitting outfielder. I personally expect more.

I'll admit I was wrong about Pie if he fails. No problem. I will not admit it was a waste of time. This is the point that you and JTread fail to understand time and time again. It makes total sense to give Pie a chance to succeed. It makes no sense to pull the plug too fast on a guy with that much talent. The fact is that some of the people in the anti-Pie camp are jumping on every little thing and maybe making up a few on the way. No one is happy with a .170 hitting OF. Those who think Pie is a .170 hitting OF who is a butcher are defense will either be vindicated or declared blind at a later date. Get your German Shepherd and dark sunglasses ready.



BTW, how can you say you want him to have the time to succeed or fail and then say afterwards that it was a waste of time. That is contradictory. What you are really saying is that you think Pie stinks and it is a waste of time. Which means you really don't want him to get a chance. Why don't you just admit it!


Oh boy! Now we have Dipper and others deciding who has the IT quality. Something tells me they can only come to this decision after the IT player has started to show IT.

[Dipper9]

And if we continue to use this thinking we will continue to rack up losing seasons. You HAVE to give guys with Pie's record an extended look. And there is NO better time to do this than 2009.

Also, Reimold is an "experiment" too.

Will you have just as short a leash with him? Or does he have this mythical "IT" quality?

Eddie Murray was run out of Baltimore for a perception that he didn't "get the uniform dirty." This is a player with a proven record, and the fans and media ran him out of town. Now, we are willing to watch a guy flounder with a sub .200 average because he has these mythical five tools. My oh my how the times have changed.

[NewMarketSean]

The question remains... do you give time to a struggling player with talent or do you go with more of the sure thing at this point?

I do want to see Pie get his chance, but I think Reimold is forcing the issue and shortening Pie's trial here in Baltimore.

[Burg]

Eddie Murray was run out of Baltimore for a perception that he didn't "get the uniform dirty." This is a player with a proven record, and the fans and media ran him out of town. Now, we are willing to watch a guy flounder with a sub .200 average because he has these mythical five tools. My oh my how the times have changed.

Nice aside, but it's irrelevant. We aren't talking about Eddie Murray.

My questions remain.

Do you acknowledge that Reimold is just as much of an experiment as Pie?

Would you give Reimold the same short leash that you've given Pie?

[Burg]

The question remains... do you give time to a struggling player with talent or do you go with more of the sure thing at this point?

I do want to see Pie get his chance, but I think Reimold is forcing the issue and shortening Pie's trial here in Baltimore.

I don't see Reimold as any more of a sure thing than Pie. They are both experiments and they both deserve extended looks.

Keep Reimold at AAA until you can ensure that he's playing every day.

[Dipper9]

I'll admit I was wrong about Pie if he fails. No problem. I will not admit it was a waste of time. This is the point that you and JTread fail to understand time and time again. It makes total sense to give Pie a chance to succeed. It makes no sense to pull the plug too fast on a guy with that much talent. The fact is that some of the people in the anti-Pie camp are jumping on every little thing and maybe making up a few on the way. No one is happy with a .170 hitting OF. Those who think Pie is a .170 hitting OF who is a butcher are defense will either be vindicated or declared blind at a later date. Get your German Shepherd and dark sunglasses ready.



BTW, how can you say you want him to have the time to succeed or fail and then say afterwards that it was a waste of time. That is contradictory. What you are really saying is that you think Pie stinks and it is a waste of time. Which means you really don't want him to get a chance. Why don't you just admit it!

Oh boy! Now we have Dipper and others deciding who has the IT quality. Something tells me they can only come to this decision after the IT player has started to show IT.

I HAVE admitted that I did NOT want to trade for him. BUT, I have also ADMITTED that sice we did, we should give him some time. Do I like him? NO. Do I "think" he will succeed? NO. Am I a major league scout? HELL NO! I am just an Orioles fan who wants to see my team win. If that is with Pie, fantastic! If Pie ends up being lousy, then I can say "see, I told you we should not have TRADED for him." What I cannot and will not say is that we should not have given him three months to prove himself. We HAVE to do that, whether I like it or not.

As for the "IT" factor, see my comment above about not being a scout. However, those who keep comparing Pie with Nick and Jones, I just don't see the comparison.

[RZNJ]

Eddie Murray was run out of Baltimore for a perception that he didn't "get the uniform dirty." This is a player with a proven record, and the fans and media ran him out of town. Now, we are willing to watch a guy flounder with a sub .200 average because he has these mythical five tools. My oh my how the times have changed.

You are really losing it now. Comparing a veteran and team leader to a virtual rookie. Cal Ripken sucked for a month or two as a rookie. So did Markakis. Those would be valid comparisons. Comparing the Murray situation to Pie is ridiculous and that's putting it mildly. I thought JTrea was the nuttier of the two. I have no problem admitting I was wrong.

[Dipper9]

You are really losing it now. Comparing a veteran and team leader to a virtual rookie. Cal Ripken sucked for a month or two as a rookie. So did Markakis. Those would be valid comparisons. Comparing the Murray situation to Pie is ridiculous and that's putting it mildly. I thought JTrea was the nuttier of the two. I have no problem admitting I was wrong.

You missed my point. Burg said you've got to give a player with Pie's "record" some time. I am trying to figure out exactly what Pie's "track record" IS? What has he done to earn this extended look other than having these mythical magical five tools?

As for JTrea, I don't think I can match his nuttiness in general, as he takes many stands on many players and sticks by them for years, see Tex and Millar. For me, I am just hung up with this Pie stuff. Either way though, you lumping me with JTrea brings a tiny tear to my eye! :002_scry:

[Burg]

You missed my point. Burg said you've got to give a player with Pie's "record" some time. I am trying to figure out exactly what Pie's "track record" IS? What has he done to earn this extended look other than having these mythical magical five tools?

As for JTrea, I don't think I can match his nuttiness in general, as he takes many stands on many players and sticks by them for years, see Tex and Millar. For me, I am just hung up with this Pie stuff. Either way though, you lumping me with JTrea brings a tiny tear to my eye! :002_scry:

Is this a legitimate question or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

Pie's MiL track record is, I thought, common knowledge. And it certainly justifies an extended look at the big league level. NOT 250+ ABs spread out over several years, but an EXTENDED look (that's for the inevitable Trea retort).

[Dipper9]

You are really losing it now. Comparing a veteran and team leader to a virtual rookie. Cal Ripken sucked for a month or two as a rookie. So did Markakis. Those would be valid comparisons. Comparing the Murray situation to Pie is ridiculous and that's putting it mildly. I thought JTrea was the nuttier of the two. I have no problem admitting I was wrong.


Is this a legitimate question or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

Pie's MiL track record is, I thought, common knowledge. And it certainly justifies an extended look at the big league level. NOT 250+ ABs spread out over several years, but an EXTENDED look (that's for the inevitable Trea retort).

I will say this...discussing this with you fellas in a civilized manner has been nice. There's been no name calling or blows beneath the belt. Thank you gentlemen!


(as they turn around, Dip grabs a steel chair and wallops them both over their heads!) ;)

[bobmc]

You are really losing it now. Comparing a veteran and team leader to a virtual rookie. Cal Ripken sucked for a month or two as a rookie. So did Markakis. Those would be valid comparisons. Comparing the Murray situation to Pie is ridiculous and that's putting it mildly. I thought JTrea was the nuttier of the two. I have no problem admitting I was wrong.

Stop trolling RZ, don't want to get yourself banned for indecent behavior! ;):clap3:

[RZNJ]

You missed my point. Burg said you've got to give a player with Pie's "record" some time. I am trying to figure out exactly what Pie's "track record" IS? What has he done to earn this extended look other than having these mythical magical five tools?

As for JTrea, I don't think I can match his nuttiness in general, as he takes many stands on many players and sticks by them for years, see Tex and Millar. For me, I am just hung up with this Pie stuff. Either way though, you lumping me with JTrea brings a tiny tear to my eye! :002_scry:

I guess you think you are clever with the "mythical" five tools that you keep preaching. Scouts say that Pie has power, speed, the ability to hit for average, a plus throwing arm, and is generally a good defensive player. Tools are about talent which Pie has plenty of. I guess you don't see any talent or any tools. Some people only see those tools after the player has succeeded which is what it looks like it will take for you to concede that Pie has the tools. Pie's track record is in the minors. His track record in the majors is poor and incomplete.

BTW, Cal Ripken was batting .123 with a .356 after his first April. That's after a callup the previous summer when he hit .128 with a .278 OPS. The 1982 team was a "real" contender. If you had been around then I can only imagine the things you'd be saying.

[Sports Guy]

Can someone tell me what we have lost with Pie on the team?

[RZNJ]

Can someone tell me what we have lost with Pie on the team?

We have 10 losses. All ten can be directly attributed to Pie.

[DrungoHazewood]

Can someone tell me what we have lost with Pie on the team?

So much arguing produced enough hot air that the ambient temperature of the Baltimore area increased. Hot air is less dense than cooler air, so the ball travels farther, leading directly to many of the opposition's homers, and therefore more losses.

[Hank Scorpio]

Meh, they're just fans who want to see the kid they've followed for 3 or 4 years now.

I get it, but it's not necessarily fact that Reimold gives us a better chance to win than Pie does over the course of a season.

JTrea, Dip, I know it pains you guys, but with our pitching staff, it doesn't really make much difference who our left fielder is right now. I'm not sure Pie will ever end up becoming a prototypical left fielder in terms of his bat, but he could make up for it in terms of his defense.

Either way, now is the ideal time to figure that out.

[Three Run Homer]

In fairness to JTrea, I think we have to acknowledge that Reimold probably is a better player than Pie right now, even considering speed and defense. If Reimold had been the starting LF coming out of Spring Training rather than Pie, we would have had more production out of the LF position up to this point, and might have won 1-2 more games.

That said, it makes sense to give Pie a shot now, because (1) he's out of options; (2) he is younger and has more upside potential than Reimold.

It's not always about who is a better player at this moment. Chris Tillman might be a better major league pitcher right now than Bergesen, for instance, but that doesn't mean that he should have been called up first.

Really, it's a good problem to have, and hopefully the O's will be able to take advantage by dealing one of their veteran hitters for something useful later this season.

[Dipper9]

I guess you think you are clever with the "mythical" five tools that you keep preaching. Scouts say that Pie has power, speed, the ability to hit for average, a plus throwing arm, and is generally a good defensive player. Tools are about talent which Pie has plenty of. I guess you don't see any talent or any tools. Some people only see those tools after the player has succeeded which is what it looks like it will take for you to concede that Pie has the tools. Pie's track record is in the minors. His track record in the majors is poor and incomplete.

BTW, Cal Ripken was batting .123 with a .356 after his first April. That's after a callup the previous summer when he hit .128 with a .278 OPS. The 1982 team was a "real" contender. If you had been around then I can only imagine the things you'd be saying.

I am gonna take the advice of another poster and just stop with the Pie talk, since obviously YOU all are right and those minority of us are WRONG. Wish I could live in your world where everything is so black and white!

Here's hoping to Pie hitting .200 by the All-Star break! :beerchug1: That way you all can tell me how much improvement he is showing!

[Sports Guy]

BTW, for all you people calling for Reimold...If you want to blame someone in all of this, you blame Andy MacPhail for failing to cut Payton last July/August and not giving Reimold a look last year.

Had he done that, MAYBE Reimold shows enough to where they don't even acquire Pie.

Personally, I think we are much better off with BOTH of these guys in the organization but this is what happens when you don't give guys looks at the end of the year.

[NewMarketSean]

Yeah but has Reimold worked on his bunting????

[sweetestdecline]

as my cubs friend told me, Felix Pie is a 5-tool player, it's just a shame that none of those 5-tools remotely relate to baseball.

[RShack]

You missed my point. Burg said you've got to give a player with Pie's "record" some time. I am trying to figure out exactly what Pie's "track record" IS? What has he done to earn this extended look other than having these mythical magical five tools?
Oh, come on Dip, I think you know: Prior to coming here, his record and AJ's were just about the same, and reviews of their potential were very similar. Now, nobody knows what will happen, but their pre-BAL performance numbers, scouting reports, and press clippings were almost interchangeable. That's a pretty stout reason. The main baseball-related diff is the org they came from and how those org's managed them.

Another thing that I think is making a big diff around here (not saying to you personally, but just in general) is that AJ comes across like a Wholesome All-American Kid, whereas Pie somehow seems like a slightly odd foreigner. Except maybe for the race part (depending on where you live), AJ could have been the kid down the street who used to cut your grass and babysit your kids. I bet if Pie was easier to identify with, the story around here would be way different. But, as it is, he talks funny and looks a little bit too much like Deepest Darkest Africa to get a lot of sympathy. If he talked American, blew bubbles, and was a shade or two lighter, I bet the general reaction would be somewhat different. I certainly can't prove it, but that's my own personal guess. Again, I am not saying this is true for you personally, but just about the general hysteria with people taking oh-so-very-strong critical stances that are all based on not much.



As for JTrea, I don't think I can match his nuttiness in general, as he takes many stands on many players and sticks by them for years, see Tex and Millar. For me, I am just hung up with this Pie stuff. Either way though, you lumping me with JTrea brings a tiny tear to my eye! :002_scry:
I don't quite get why. Reimold would be at Norfolk anyhow. He only had 1 real year at AA. IMO, if anybody has reason to be bothered about it, it's Luke fans, not Reimold fans. I'm a Luke fan, and I was hoping to see him in LF more this year, not less. But I agree that we gotta find out about Pie, and there's only one way to do that.

[JTrea81]

Oh, come on Dip, I think you know: Prior to coming here, his record and AJ's were just about the same, and reviews of their potential were very similar. Now, nobody knows what will happen, but their pre-BAL performance numbers, scouting reports, and press clippings were almost interchangeable. That's a pretty stout reason. The main baseball-related diff is the org they came from and how those org's managed them.

Another thing that I think is making a big diff around here (not saying to you personally, but just in general) is that AJ comes across like a Wholesome All-American Kid, whereas Pie somehow seems like a slightly odd foreigner. Except maybe for the race part (depending on where you live), AJ could have been the kid down the street who used to cut your grass and babysit your kids. I bet if Pie was easier to identify with, the story around here would be way different. But, as it is, he talks funny and looks a little bit too much like Deepest Darkest Africa to get a lot of sympathy. If he talked American, blew bubbles, and was a shade or two lighter, I bet the general reaction would be somewhat different. I certainly can't prove it, but that's my own personal guess. Again, I am not saying this is true for you personally, but just about the general hysteria with people taking oh-so-very-strong critical stances that are all based on not much.


I don't quite get why. Reimold would be at Norfolk anyhow. He only had 1 real year at AA. IMO, if anybody has reason to be bothered about it, it's Luke fans, not Reimold fans. I'm a Luke fan, and I was hoping to see him in LF more this year, not less. But I agree that we gotta find out about Pie, and there's only one way to do that.

This has nothing to do about race and everything to do about hype vs. performance. I could care less if Pie was actually orange with black polka dots. He's a 24 year old former prospect that is only on this team because the GM favors him and not due to his performance. And you've got another prospect in the minors that has paid his dues and should be on the team instead given his performance. Pie had so much hype that he's failed to live up to, and he continues to disappoint all those except for the ones who still think he'll live up to his potential despite his numerous chances where he failed to do so.

Jones was given the benefit of the doubt because he was regarded so highly and there wasn't really another alternative that was better, not just because he's an American. There are better alternatives to Pie in the system and he is not the same age, nor had the same prospect status as Jones yet people continue to insist he's the same player.

Pie seems to be all hype and no substance. That's why people are getting tired of his act and want to see Reimold. We aren't tired of him because he's Dominican. That has nothing to do with it. We want to see the future this year and Pie just doesn't seem to be part of it. It's time to see if Reimold can and he deserves the full time LF job so that we can evaluate him properly. He's earned that opportunity unlike Pie who was just handed it by Andy MacPhail.

[Mackus]

This has nothing to do about race and everything to do about hype vs. performance. I could care less if Pie was actually orange with black polka dots. He's a 24 year old former prospect that is only on this team because the GM favors him and not due to his performance.I agree this has nothing to do with race.

I think you're out of your mind if you think there is any reason Pie is here right now other than performance and scouting reports (which are more important than performance in the minors, just ask Bill James). His record in the minors was fantastic and every scout who's seen him rated him very highly. His MLB performance obviously has been disappointing, but he hasn't had a good enough chance to prove that he can't eventually figure things out up here. Unless he's costing us wins that matter, and obviously he's not since none of our games really matter this year in terms of competition, we're in a perfect position to give him a chance to sink or swim.

If he's still not hitting his weight in mid-June, most people will be ready to say the trial didn't work out. But saying that three weeks into the season is obviously too soon.

If you were saying rational things like "he hasn't looked good and I don't expect him to figure things out, but we still need to give him a shot" then people wouldn't think you were so clueless. But you're saying ridiculous things like "the only reason he's here is because MacPhail favors him", so people respond to you ridiculously.

Dipper has a fine opinion here. I disagree with his assessment of Pie, but he realizes that since he is here, we have to give him a shot to see what we've got. JohnnyK is similar, although a bit more aggressive in his negative opinions on Pie than Dipper, but even he isn't saying that we shouldn't give him a chance, just that he doesn't think he's gonna put it together than he hopes the chance is shorter rather than longer. But your opinion makes little sense, because you are so close-minded and wanted the plug to be pulled a week into the season.

[RShack]

This has nothing to do about race...
I don't think it's about race per se. I think it's partially about how "different" he seems. Regardless of race, AJ seems like an All-American guy. Like I said, depending on your neighborhood, AJ seems like he could have been the kid down the street, while Pie seems like somebody who's different, somebody from someplace else. I think that makes it harder for some to identify with him, and easier to react to him like he's an intruder, an interloper, which makes it subtly easier to get hostile towards him. (Just my opinion...)

[ChrisAF79]

I'm beginning to feel like a broken record, but I'm going to regurgiate a previous post that I feel never gets answered to my satisfaction.

My biggest point in all of this is: what do the O's have to lose by playing Pie? So what if he flops and the O's lose more games as a result? We all know this year ain't about W's and L's. It's about finding what we've got and how best to utilize it.

Give the man 200-300 Ab's and then try to make a more informed opinion. It's best for Pie, and it's best for the O's. Again, what's the rush? Reimold will get his shot in due time later this season.

[JTrea81]

I don't think it's about race per se. I think it's partially about how "different" he seems. Regardless of race, AJ seems like an All-American guy. Like I said, depending on your neighborhood, AJ seems like he could have been the kid down the street, while Pie seems like somebody who's different, somebody from someplace else. I think that makes it harder for some to identify with him, and easier to react to him like he's an intruder, an interloper, which makes it subtly easier to get hostile towards him. (Just my opinion...)

You may have something there with your last part, but it's not due to race, rather the fact he's from outside the organization and was brought in by MacPhail vs. Reimold who has been with the Orioles all along and is a homegrown player. I think people want to see the homegrown player get his shot because he's earned it vs. the player that was brought in by the GM and handed a job without having to prove anything first.

[Sports Guy]

You may have something there with your last part, but it's not due to race, rather the fact he's from outside the organization and was brought in by MacPhail vs. Reimold who has been with the Orioles all along and is a homegrown player. I think people want to see the homegrown player get his shot because he's earned it vs. the player that was brought in by the GM and handed a job without having to prove anything first.
To say Pie hasn't proved anything shows a total lack of knowledge.

And Reimold can and will get his shot.

The fact that you can't grasp these 2 easy and simple concepts is just mind boggling to me.

[crawdad]

You may have something there with your last part, but it's not due to race, rather the fact he's from outside the organization and was brought in by MacPhail vs. Reimold who has been with the Orioles all along and is a homegrown player. I think people want to see the homegrown player get his shot because he's earned it vs. the player that was brought in by the GM and handed a job without having to prove anything first.

I think the issue is mainly this. Montanez came out of nowhere to do well in AA last year. People think that he was robbed for not being given consideration for the 25 man roster this year.

Reimold solidified his standing as a prospect last year and did well in ST as well as in AAA so far.

Pie has done well in AAA, but notsomuch in the majors. His ST was bad. His month of ball for us has also been pretty bad. I imagine though . . . if Pie had not had any MLB service time he would be more welcomed than he currently is.

It has little to nothing to do with race or being from outside the organization. It is that Pie has shown no ability to play MLB level ball so far. That said . . . I would stick through July with him.

[Mackus]

I think people want to see the homegrown player get his shot because he's earned it vs. the player that was brought in by the GM and handed a job without having to prove anything first.This is why people can't stand you right now. This is so uninformed and incorrect that it borders on being a lie.

Pie has earned this shot more than Reimold has. He's had better numbers in the minors at better ages. Reimold is deserving of a shot, but Pie is even moreso. Add that to the fact that Pie is out of options, and its obvious who should be up here right now.

We can either give Pie a shot and then if he fails give Reimold a shot after having half a season at AAA and being more likely to be successful when he does get his shot, thus having two very good prospects to try and find one guy who can play LF for us for the next several seasons. Or we can give only Reimold a shot right away when he isn't exactly set up to succeed as best as he could be.

One of those options is clearly and inarguably better than the other. Which one do you think it is?

[Fairfax Bird]

You may have something there with your last part, but it's not due to race, rather the fact he's from outside the organization and was brought in by MacPhail vs. Reimold who has been with the Orioles all along and is a homegrown player. I think people want to see the homegrown player get his shot because he's earned it vs. the player that was brought in by the GM and handed a job without having to prove anything first.

If Reimold has "earned" it here, what did Pie "earn" in Chicago's system. At a much younger age he had great numbers at AAA two years ago and never "earned" a chance with the Cubs. If Reimold has 50 ABs and is hitting .180 are you going to say that it is time to give a chance to Montanez because he has "earned" it also?

[TyCobb]

Probably because Pie isn't good and fans don't like bad players.

[Rolotomassie]

I'm beginning to feel like a broken record, but I'm going to regurgiate a previous post that I feel never gets answered to my satisfaction.

My biggest point in all of this is: what do the O's have to lose by playing Pie? So what if he flops and the O's lose more games as a result? We all know this year ain't about W's and L's. It's about finding what we've got and how best to utilize it.

Give the man 200-300 Ab's and then try to make a more informed opinion. It's best for Pie, and it's best for the O's. Again, what's the rush? Reimold will get his shot in due time later this season.

Agree 100%, but then message boards pretty much exist for kneejerkism.

The thing to remember is you really can tell very little about Pie OR Reimold from minor league stats or even a month's worth of major league at-bats. At this time in his rookie season Markakis was hitting .100 with no power. But at any rate I'm so happy that MacPhail has a much more appropriate level of patience and persepctive on this season than many fans on here.

[Mackus]

Probably because Pie isn't good and fans don't like bad players.Another thoroughly researched and well-thought out opinion :rolleyes:

[Fan4Life]

Jones was given the benefit of the doubt because he was regarded so highly and there wasn't really another alternative that was better, not just because he's an American. There are better alternatives to Pie in the system and he is not the same age, nor had the same prospect status as Jones yet people continue to insist he's the same player.


If we used your reactionary logic, we'd have replaced Jones with Montanez last year and we'd have missed out on what he's becoming. This team isn't going anywhere this season unless the pitching is corrected. If the pitching is corrected, then Pie has most of this baseball season to work things out. His lack of production isn't the difference in anything right now. Replacing him with Reimold doesn't fix any of our current problems.

[Sports Guy]

Another thoroughly researched and well-thought out opinion :rolleyes:

Did you expect anything else?

[TyCobb]

Another thoroughly researched and well-thought out opinion :rolleyes:

I would do the work and write out why I think he isn't more than a 4th OFer, but the most of you guys simply response with "You are wrong."

[gatoto]

[QUOTE=Sports Guy;1730331]To say Pie hasn't proved anything shows a total lack of knowledge.

And Reimold can and will get his shot.

The fact that you can't grasp these 2 easy and simple concepts is just mind boggling to me.[/QUOTE


The only thing that Pie has proven is that in any season where he gets over 300 at bats (which just about everyone on this board agrees is the minimum sample size that a player needs to prove himself) he can't crack an ops of .803.

* I have no idea what I did to make my quote of Sports Guy look like this

[Sports Guy]

I would do the work and write out why I think he isn't more than a 4th OFer, but the most of you guys simply response with "You are wrong."

Here is what you can't come up with...A reason as to why he shouldn't be getting a chance to prove himself.

Yes, he may only be a 4th OFer...Its possible that he will be an AS or a bench guy...Could be anything in between...Who knows.

But still, it doesn't change the idea that he should be getting an extended look to see what he can do.

[TyCobb]

Here is what you can't come up with...A reason as to why he shouldn't be getting a chance to prove himself.

Yes, he may only be a 4th OFer...Its possible that he will be an AS or a bench guy...Could be anything in between...Who knows.

But still, it doesn't change the idea that he should be getting an extended look to see what he can do.

He doesn't have the bat to play LF. He won't have an OBP over .300 if you give him 1000 ABs at the MLB level.

[Fan4Life]

Here is what you can't come up with...A reason as to why he shouldn't be getting a chance to prove himself.

Yes, he may only be a 4th OFer...Its possible that he will be an AS or a bench guy...Could be anything in between...Who knows.

But still, it doesn't change the idea that he should be getting an extended look to see what he can do.

Ditto me... their comments are all subjective opinions... ours is facts based on stats, performance, scouts. Doesn't mean we'll be right, and they'll be wrong. But willy nilly doesn't often win over logic and reason.

[snatch311]

Pie is seeing a reasonable 3.7 P/PA. That's the same as Adam Jones last year and Markakis in 2006.
Pie has 6 walks in 55 PAs. Thats a better walk rate than Jones or Markakis as first year regulars.
Pie has a LD% higher than any Orioles had in 2008.
Pie has a lower BABIP than any Oriole with more than 11 abs had in 2008.
Pie's avg/obp adjusted for league averages on balls in play should be around .250/.327.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Probably because Pie isn't good and fans don't like bad players.

Careful - you seem to be using an "I don't care what the scouts, numbers, or common sense tell me, I trust my eyes, dammit!" argument here. You're stealing another poster's schtick.

[Fairfax Bird]

The only thing that Pie has proven is that in any season where he gets over 300 at bats (which just about everyone on this board agrees is the minimum sample size that a player needs to prove himself) he can't crack an ops of .803.

Yeah ... um check out these numbers:

High A - 19 years old - .799
AA - 20 years old - .903 (240 ABs because of injury)
AAA - 21 years old - .792 (yeah I know that the PCL is a hitters league)
AAA - 22 years old - .973 (low at-bat total so that he could go up and ride the pine in Chicago)
AAA - 23 years old - .802 (twisted testicle + sitting on the bench in Chicago for a month and a half.

This kid has talent. You can not put up a .799 OPS in High A as a 19 year old without some talent. The question is whether it transfers to the bigs. If you are satisfied after 50 ABs that it doesn't then you must not have thought much of Markakis and Jones.

BTW, he is actually showing a good eye at the plate this year.

[Mackus]

He doesn't have the bat to play LF. He won't have an OBP over .300 if you give him 1000 ABs at the MLB level.He had a minor league OBP of .355 in the minors. Why shouldn't he be given an ample opportunity to prove he can or can't approach that as an MLB player?

[Sports Guy]

He doesn't have the bat to play LF. He won't have an OBP over .300 if you give him 1000 ABs at the MLB level.

There is no evidence to show that this is correct.

If he ends up as good in LF as he was in CF(and no reason to think this won't happen) and has a 720ish OPS, he will be a league average LFer.

None of the advanced projection systems had him getting less than a 300 OBP.

He is walking at a good rate right now and if he wasn't getting so unlucky, his OBP would easily be over 300.

[Mackus]

Did you expect anything else?From him, actually yes, yes I did.

[Mackus]

There is no evidence to show that this is correct.There is evidence that his statement is correct, but what there certainly isn't is proof. The "evidence" we have, his poor MLB numbers, isn't anything even remotely close enough to prove that it is time to give up on someone with his level of talent and potential.

[crawdad]

Pie is seeing a reasonable 3.7 P/PA. That's the same as Adam Jones last year and Markakis in 2006.
Pie has 6 walks in 55 PAs. Thats a better walk rate than Jones or Markakis as first year regulars.
Pie has a LD% higher than any Orioles had in 2008.
Pie has a lower BABIP than any Oriole with more than 11 abs had in 2008.
Pie's avg/obp adjusted for league averages on balls in play should be around .250/.327.

What method are your using for Pie's predicted avg/obp?

I am using a modified PROPS formula and get:

.274/.351/.401

[Sports Guy]

There is evidence that his statement is correct, but what there certainly isn't is proof. The "evidence" we have, his poor MLB numbers, isn't anything even remotely close enough to prove that it is time to give up on someone with his level of talent and potential.

Well, if the argument is using a bunch of sproadic at bats scattered over a few seasons and ignores consistent at bats, scouting reports, etc...then the evidence is worthless and poorly used.

[TyCobb]

Ditto me... there comments are all subjective opinions... ours is facts based on stats, performance, scouts. Doesn't mean we'll be right, and they'll be wrong. But willy nilly doesn't often win over logic and reason.

His minor league numbers aren't anything special for a LFer. I don't put much weight into the fact that he had a great season or two when he was younger than the opponents.

His OBP is largely going to be based on what his BA is. His BA is going to be bad because he doesn't have a clue at the plate.

We never should have made the trade so it would have been easier to start Reimold in LF on OD.

[Sports Guy]

I would do the work and write out why I think he isn't more than a 4th OFer, but the most of you guys simply response with "You are wrong."

Gee, I wonder why:


His minor league numbers aren't anything special for a LFer. I don't put much weight into the fact that he had a great season or two when he was younger than the opponents.

His OBP is largely going to be based on what his BA is. His BA is going to be bad because he doesn't have a clue at the plate.

We never should have made the trade so it would have been easier to start Reimold in LF on OD.

[snatch311]

What method are your using for Pie's predicted avg/obp?

I am using a modified PROPS formula and get:

.274/.351/.401

I just took 35 balls in play, 8 LDs, 5 Popouts, 13 groundouts, 9 fly balls.
.74 x 8 = 6 hits
.01 x 5 = 0 hits
.28 x 13 = 4 hits
.22 x 9 = 2 hits

13 hits in 48 abs = .271 (i forgot the homer the first time around)
19 on base in 55 pas = .345 (adding the homer)

So, I guess it should be a lot closer to what you said. I forgot to add the home run in. I did it really quickly.

I couldn't think of a very good way to generate the slug.

[TyCobb]

Gee, I wonder why:

Yea because it is a fact that if you perform well in the minors at a young age you are going to be a everyday player.

[Mackus]

Well, if the argument is using a bunch of sproadic at bats scattered over a few seasons and ignores consistent at bats, scouting reports, etc...then the evidence is worthless and poorly used.I agree, its pretty weak evidence.

Just a minor pet peeve of mine when people use 'evidence' and 'proof' interchangeably. They have pretty different meanings.

[snatch311]

Either way, what Crawdad and I just showed is that with average luck, Pie looks like a decent player.

So, why don't we wait and see.

I would predict a .260/.310/.400 for the year for Pie. That won't be good enough for most people here, but I mean, come on, look at what Jones did.

Pie won't EVER be Markakis, but who is.

[TyCobb]

He had a minor league OBP of .355 in the minors. Why shouldn't he be given an ample opportunity to prove he can or can't approach that as an MLB player?

Because his BA was .299. I don't see Pie hitting above .250.

[Mackus]

Yea because it is a fact that if you perform well in the minors at a young age you are going to be a everyday player.No, but its certainly a trend. Success at a younger age is a very good indicator of future success.

With some many players, nothing is a hard and fast rule. You can't definitively say anything about any player, but you can look at historical trends and make more educated guesses than just "this guy sucks" or "he's really tall".

[gatoto]

Yeah ... um check out these numbers:

High A - 19 years old - .799
AA - 20 years old - .903 (240 ABs because of injury)
AAA - 21 years old - .792 (yeah I know that the PCL is a hitters league)
AAA - 22 years old - .973 (low at-bat total so that he could go up and ride the pine in Chicago)
AAA - 23 years old - .802 (twisted testicle + sitting on the bench in Chicago for a month and a half.

This kid has talent. You can not put up a .799 OPS in High A as a 19 year old without some talent. The question is whether it transfers to the bigs. If you are satisfied after 50 ABs that it doesn't then you must not have thought much of Markakis and Jones.

BTW, he is actually showing a good eye at the plate this year.


Ummm I did check out the numbers, and you did nothing to refute my point, even though I think you were trying to :D. And to have a .799 ops at age 19 is nice. However, its not great if you are 24 and people are using your stats at 19 to convince others you have talent hidden somewhere. Chalk me up as another guy who thinks this guy is all hype and no substance.

[TyCobb]

No, but its certainly a trend. Success at a younger age is a very good indicator of future success.

With some many players, nothing is a hard and fast rule. You can't definitively say anything about any player, but you can look at historical trends and make more educated guesses than just "this guy sucks" or "he's really tall".

I agree with that. I am simply stating I don't put much weight into that. And since I don't put much weight as SG you thinks I'm wrong.

Sure if a player is going to be great (multiple AS) he is most likely to be great at a young age at any league he plays at. Pie was giving a chance for the Cubs. They saw something they didn't like. I am seeing things I don't like about him.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I am seeing things I don't like about him.

And there it is again...

[snatch311]

Because his BA was .299. I don't see Pie hitting above .250.

Nick Markakis hit .301 in the minors. Reimold has hit .283 in the minors.

[TyCobb]

And there it is again...

What is wrong with that exactly?

[crawdad]

I just took 35 balls in play, 8 LDs, 5 Popouts, 13 groundouts, 9 fly balls.
.74 x 8 = 6 hits
.01 x 5 = 0 hits
.28 x 13 = 4 hits
.22 x 9 = 2 hits

13 hits in 48 abs = .271 (i forgot the homer the first time around)
19 on base in 55 pas = .345 (adding the homer)

So, I guess it should be a lot closer to what you said. I forgot to add the home run in. I did it really quickly.

I couldn't think of a very good way to generate the slug.

Right . . . to do slg I did a simple correlation between hit type and base results. I also associated it with a speed score.

Regardless, Pie has been incredibly unlucky. Hopefully, he turns it around soon. He looks like he has talent and it would be good for him to have something tangible to show for it.

[Nigel Tufnel]

What is wrong with that exactly?

Because your entire argument is based on what you see or think you see, instead of scout's opinions, numbers, or common sense. That's a problem.

EDIT: I should add that I think there's actually a pretty good chance - probably at least 50% - that you're right. It's just that for me, the rewards if you're wrong outweigh the negatives if you happen to be right.

[DrungoHazewood]

His minor league numbers aren't anything special for a LFer. I don't put much weight into the fact that he had a great season or two when he was younger than the opponents.

His OBP is largely going to be based on what his BA is. His BA is going to be bad because he doesn't have a clue at the plate.

We never should have made the trade so it would have been easier to start Reimold in LF on OD.

IYO.

There are a lot of contrary scouting reports and ways to read the information.

I just don't see how it's a bad thing to let the man have a chance to prove the believers right. That's all I've ever asked for anyone with half a chance to contribute to a winning O's team.

[TyCobb]

Because your entire argument is based on what you see or think you see, instead of scout's opinions, numbers, or common sense. That's a problem.

Really? My entire argument?

So I should be reading scout's opinion from 2 or 3 years ago instead of actually watching his ABs.

[snatch311]

Really? My entire argument?

So I should be reading scout's opinion from 2 or 3 years ago instead of actually watching his ABs.

Well, from watching his ABs, how did you come up with the thought that his OBP is going to be average based, when he has 6 walks already in 48 abs?

[DrungoHazewood]

Really? My entire argument?

So I should be reading scout's opinion from 2 or 3 years ago instead of actually watching his ABs.

Both. You can't afford to discard any relevant information. Pie hit really well 2-3 years ago, hasn't had any kind of big injury or anything that would lead one to believe he's a radically different player. So why would you completely dismiss the record of how he played before his playing time went all haywire?

[Sports Guy]

Really? My entire argument?

So I should be reading scout's opinion from 2 or 3 years ago instead of actually watching his ABs.

Yes you should because what YOU are seeing with Pie is wrong.

As Stotle has showed, if you just adjust his BABIP to league average levels, he would have a 350ish OBP.

I have seen you quote LD% often on here yet you ignore it for Pie...Gee, I wonder why?

[TyCobb]

IYO.

There are a lot of contrary scouting reports and ways to read the information.

I just don't see how it's a bad thing to let the man have a chance to prove the believers right. That's all I've ever asked for anyone with half a chance to contribute to a winning O's team.

Of course it is my opinion.

I don't think Pie has a chance to be anything other than a 4th OFer. That is why I THINK we are wasting our time. I rather give Lou ABs over Pie to see if maybe Lou is some freak like Melvin Mora who just got it at a later age.

My choice would be to just let Reimold take over LF. He is hitting the ball extremely well right now. That could give him the confidence out of the gate to his MLB career. Better than letting him hit in the MLB for the first time during a cold streak.

[ChrisAF79]

I still never got an answer to what I was looking for. Surprise surprise.

Why do Trea and his minions continue to ignore the obvious? I just don't get it. Allowing Pie to get 200-300 AB's before determining what to do is not some crime.

Reimold's not going anywhere. If he's still raking come June and and Pie is still struggling, then you make the change. Why make a hasty decision before then? It makes no logical sense.

[TyCobb]

Yes you should because what YOU are seeing with Pie is wrong.

As Stotle has showed, if you just adjust his BABIP to league average levels, he would have a 350ish OBP.

I have seen you quote LD% often on here yet you ignore it for Pie...Gee, I wonder why?

How about because using LD% with 55 PA is ridiculous. It isn't going to tell you a thing.

[DrungoHazewood]

What is wrong with that exactly?

Because you're using a subjective view of a handful of at bats to declare authoritatively whether or not Pie is going to have a successful major league career.

If you said that "based on what I've seen of him I doubt he'll pan out" I can respect that. But my feeling is that you're much, much more definitive in your belief that he's terrible based on a watching him for just few weeks.

[Mackus]

How about because using LD% with 55 PA is ridiculous. It isn't going to tell you a thing.But watching him for 55 PA and judging him and completely writing him off based on that isn't?

[Sports Guy]

How about because using LD% with 55 PA is ridiculous. It isn't going to tell you a thing.

LOL...EXACTLY!!!

Using ANY INFORMATION based on 55 at bats is ridiculous...But its what you and many others are doing.

All we are saying is that in that very small sample size, he has been very unlucky.

To say that he doesn't have a clue at the plate, which is what you said, just shows you don't know what you are watching.

[TyCobb]

Both. You can't afford to discard any relevant information. Pie hit really well 2-3 years ago, hasn't had any kind of big injury or anything that would lead one to believe he's a radically different player. So why would you completely dismiss the record of how he played before his playing time went all haywire?

The scouts 2-3 years ago thought Pie was going to get better and better (relatively young age with good performance) . I am going to guess this is main reason why the rated him so highly. Pie doesn't seem to have reached that next level.

Does anyone have a scouting report from this year?

[snatch311]

The problem is, the pressure and the attitudes of fans could possibly yield unwelcome effects. Shouldn't everyone be as supportive as possible. I mean, why root against a young developing player. Makes no sense. Why do we want to see playing time bounced around?

[TyCobb]

But watching him for 55 PA and judging him and completely writing him off based on that isn't?

I think it is a little better than looking at his LD% for 55 PA. He hasn't hit the ball hard. His 1 hard hit ball I remember was his HR in Texas. Everything else has been light hit balls up the middle or roll over ground balls to the right side of the field.

[Big Mac]

Pie has looked very good in his AB's recently, I don't see how anyone who is actually watchcing the games can dispute that.

[Mackus]

I think it is a little better than looking at his LD% for 55 PA. He hasn't hit the ball hard. His 1 hard hit ball I remember was his HR in Texas. Everything else has been light hit balls up the middle or roll over ground balls to the right side of the field.Ok so your method is "a little better" than "ridiculous". This is all according to you in your own words.

Its "a little better" than something that "isn't going to tell you a thing".

Sounds pretty reliable to me...

Maybe we should just give Pie an actual meaningful amount of plate appearances and then see what we have then, rather than everyone jumping to conclusions after a fairly meaningless number of at bats.

[TyCobb]

LOL...EXACTLY!!!

Using ANY INFORMATION based on 55 at bats is ridiculous...But its what you and many others are doing.

All we are saying is that in that very small sample size, he has been very unlucky.

To say that he doesn't have a clue at the plate, which is what you said, just shows you don't know what you are watching.

Where did I say he was unlucky. He isn't hitting the ball hard. There isn't anything unlucky about that.

I will take my opinion of a players abilities over yours. I may not be the oldest fan (22), but I have watched a lot of baseball in my life and I think I can evaluate a players abilities to gauge future performance.

[Fairfax Bird]

I think it is a little better than looking at his LD% for 55 PA. He hasn't hit the ball hard. His 1 hard hit ball I remember was his HR in Texas. Everything else has been light hit balls up the middle or roll over ground balls to the right side of the field.

Did Adam Jones show you more at this time last year?

[TyCobb]

Ok so your method is "a little better" than "ridiculous". This is all according to you in your own words.

Its "a little better" than something that "isn't going to tell you a thing".

Sounds pretty reliable to me...

Maybe we should just give Pie an actual meaningful amount of plate appearances and then see what we have then, rather than everyone jumping to conclusions after a fairly meaningless number of at bats.

I was being sarcastic with " a little better". Watching 55 ABs is a lot more useful than 8 LD out of 35 balls recorded as an Hits or outs.

[DrungoHazewood]

Where did I say he was unlucky. He isn't hitting the ball hard. There isn't anything unlucky about that.

I will take my opinion of a players abilities over yours. I may not be the oldest fan (22), but I have watched a lot of baseball in my life and I think I can evaluate a players abilities to gauge future performance.

Yesterday he hit the dog snot out of the ball on his line drive single. Of course that doesn't mean much, but neither does going 8-for-48.

[TyCobb]

Did Adam Jones show you more at this time last year?

I honestly can't remember what I was saying about Adam Jones at the beginning of last year.

I thought A. Jones was going to be a great player for us by the end of last year.

Erik Bedard is my favorite player so I was probably just angry at the time.

[JTrea81]

To say Pie hasn't proved anything shows a total lack of knowledge.



This is why people can't stand you right now. This is so uninformed and incorrect that it borders on being a lie.

Pie has not proven anything while he's been a member of this organization to warrant playing time over Nolan Reimold.

If we are to give him a blank slate coming in, then we wipe away his accomplishments in AAA and the minors as well as his failures. You can't just look at his success and disregard the fact he has done nothing at the ML level despite the sample size. He's been given enough chances so that if he was as good as he was supposed to be he'd have something to show for it.

Right now disregarding past history, Nolan Reimold is a better player than Felix Pie and looks to have the brighter future. Disregard the hype of his past and the one good season he had in 2007 and then see what you actually have.

Fans such as myself aren't looking at what Pie did in AAA 2 years ago because that was two years ago. He hasn't done anything since then especially not part of this organization. He did nothing in ST, and has done nothing during the regular season. Nolan Reimold while he's been a member of this organization has constantly improved at every level and deserves his shot at the ML level.

[TyCobb]

Yesterday he hit the dog snot out of the ball on his line drive single. Of course that doesn't mean much, but neither does going 8-for-48.

Sure and his HR in Texas was a nice hard LD too.

[crawdad]

How about because using LD% with 55 PA is ridiculous. It isn't going to tell you a thing.

It does tell you about what happened, but not so much about what will happen at this point. It indicates whether performance accurately describes his talent level. I doubt anyone is saying that he will continue a 24% LD rate.

[Sports Guy]

Pie has not proven anything while he's been a member of this organization to warrant playing time over Nolan Reimold.

If we are to give him a blank slate coming in, then we wipe away his accomplishments in AAA and the minors as well as his failures.

Right now disregarding past history, Nolan Reimold is a better player than Felix Pie. Disregard the hype of his past and the one good season he had in 2007 and then see what you actually have.

Fans such as myself aren't looking at what Pie did in AAA 2 years ago because that was two years ago. He hasn't done anything since then especially not part of this organization. He did nothing in ST, and has done nothing during the regular season.

Ok..Then you admit that you are dismissing his career MiL numbers..You admit that all you care about is the small sample size of this year?

You admit that you don't care that he is changing positions and that he should be as good in LF right now as he was iN CF..a position he played for years.

[amateurfan]

Did Adam Jones show you more at this time last year?

I think so. He was hitting .275 in April of last year. He had one bad month before his injury and that was May. Otherwise, he was pretty consistent.

I don't think there are many similarities between Jones and Pie. I think OPS gives the impression that they are similar. Jones crushed the PCL his second time over 101 games. I was not aware of Pie's twisted testicle during 2008, but he has never had success in AAA over an extended period of time (which is why we should be cautious when thinking about Reimold, too).


I was hoping some one could answer questions about adjusting Pie's stats. I was under the impression that BABIP was really only useful for pitchers. If hitters can control their BABIP, which has been shown, why readjust Pie's avg to league avg? Is it the number of line drives?

[Fan4Life]

Pie has not proven anything while he's been a member of this organization to warrant playing time over Nolan Reimold.

The same measuring stick you are using to justify Reimold, you are ignoring of Pie. Which is the definition of a JTrea post.

[Burg]

Pie has not proven anything while he's been a member of this organization to warrant playing time over Nolan Reimold.

If we are to give him a blank slate coming in, then we wipe away his accomplishments in AAA and the minors as well as his failures.

Right now disregarding past history, Nolan Reimold is a better player than Felix Pie and looks to have the brighter future. Disregard the hype of his past and the one good season he had in 2007 and then see what you actually have.

Fans such as myself aren't looking at what Pie did in AAA 2 years ago because that was two years ago. He hasn't done anything since then especially not part of this organization. He did nothing in ST, and has done nothing during the regular season. Nolan Reimold while he's been a member of this organization has constantly improved at every level and deserves his shot at the ML level.

You can't "disregard past history". Otherwise we'd be playing guys based on who chews gum the best.

Also, and I would love to hear the answer to this one, if we "disregard past history" for Reimold and he has the same slow start as Pie, will you be all over him?

[GnatsFan]

All we are saying is that in that very small sample size, he has been very unlucky.

I'm still trying to figure out why people are using the unlucky tag with Pie's performance... because he hit 13 groundballs he should statistically have 4 hits or something and should somehow be batting .271 instead of .125 if it weren't for bad luck?

Pie has not really hit the ball hard [HR & high flyball to CF warning track & about 3 fairly crisp LD hits]. Ever since about the 3rd game his groundouts are routine turnovers to 2B & 1B. I don't even recall one close play at 1B. Its not unlucky... he is missing good pitches and not hitting the ball square. He has a few nice LD hits where he simply drops the head of the bat on the ball, but otherwise they have been pretty routine bloop LDs. I have yet to see Pie get robbed once or a hard hit ball directly at someone to declare Pie unlucky. Pie hasn't gotten remotely close to hitting a LD down any of the lines or any GBs into any of the infield holes has he? Did I miss something? Is there some luck stat I'm not aware of?

[El Gordo]

Did Adam Jones show you more at this time last year?
Actually he did. April '08: .272 .320 .402 .722, 1 HR, 8 RBI, 6 BB, 7 2B, 1 3B, 10 R, 25 H/95 AB. Pie 's got some catcing up to do the next 3 days.:laughlol:

[Hank Scorpio]

I think it is a little better than looking at his LD% for 55 PA. He hasn't hit the ball hard. His 1 hard hit ball I remember was his HR in Texas. Everything else has been light hit balls up the middle or roll over ground balls to the right side of the field.

Did you miss the single he hit yesterday?

Right on the screws.

[crawdad]

I honestly can't remember what I was saying about Adam Jones at the beginning of last year.

I thought A. Jones was going to be a great player for us by the end of last year.

Erik Bedard is my favorite player so I was probably just angry at the time.

Huh, you blacked it all out?

Maybe my mind just works differently. I remember my perspective about players because it lets me know when I am right and when I am wrong. It helps me hone my skills and make myself better. Forgetting your past critiques does not help you progress as an evaluator. I know my major failing is raw talent players. I have a difficult time determining whether their skill set with be complemented by baseball skills.

Being wrong is never a bad thing. No one is always right. Accepting fallibility allows you to move forward.

I am not saying your are right about Pie or that you are wrong. I do think you rationale about Pie is a bit light, but that just might be the medium in which this discussion is taking place. If it makes you feel better . . . a lot of guys supporting Pie also have pretty light arguments.

[Sports Guy]

I'm still trying to figure out why people are using the unlucky tag with Pie's performance... because he hit 13 groundballs he should statistically have 4 hits or something and should somehow be batting .271 instead of .125 if it weren't for bad luck?

Pie has not really hit the ball hard [HR & high flyball to CF warning track & about 3 fairly crisp LD hits]. Ever since about the 3rd game his groundouts are routine turnovers to 2B & 1B. I don't even recall one close play at 1B. Its not unlucky... he is missing good pitches and not hitting the ball square. He has a few nice LD hits where he simply drops the head of the bat on the ball, but otherwise they have been pretty routine bloop LDs. I have yet to see Pie get robbed once or a hard hit ball directly at someone to declare Pie unlucky. Pie hasn't gotten remotely close to hitting a LD down any of the lines or any GBs into any of the infield holes has he? Did I miss something? Is there some luck stat I'm not aware of?

His BABIP is 194..League average is anywhere from 270-300.

If Pie had 4 more hits, he would be hitting 250 and have an OBP over 300...He would look that much better.

Yes, he has been unlucky despite what some what to make you think.

[GnatsFan]

Did Adam Jones show you more at this time last year?

Adam Jones' problem was he swung at bad pitches. When he got one he liked he showed he could crush it. Explosive hips and a powerful swing. Ability to hit with power to all fields and potential to be a 25 HR player in the not so distant future.

Pie's game is, "put the head of the bat on the ball". That's fine. Nice singles LD hitter... but Jones showed a lot more potential in my opinion even when he was struggling both by his swing type, how hard he hit the ball, and his body size [6'1" 200 lbs was it?]. Jones' stance and swing kind of reminded me of young A'Rod [obviously he will never be that good].

Anyone else agree?

[TyCobb]

Huh, you blacked it all out?

Maybe my mind just works differently. I remember my perspective about players because it lets me know when I am right and when I am wrong. It helps me hone my skills and make myself better. Forgetting your past critiques does not help you progress as an evaluator. I know my major failing is raw talent players. I have a difficult time determining whether their skill set with be complemented by baseball skills.

Being wrong is never a bad thing. No one is always right. Accepting fallibility allows you to move forward.

I am not saying your are right about Pie or that you are wrong. I do think you rationale about Pie is a bit light, but that just might be the medium in which this discussion is taking place. If it makes you feel better . . . a lot of guys supporting Pie also have pretty light arguments.

I remember my mistakes. I just don't remember what I first thought of Jones.

I wanted to sign Pierre to be our Leadoff Hitter. Yikes. That was 4 years ago and because of OH I won't make that same mistake again.

[JTrea81]

Ok..Then you admit that you are dismissing his career MiL numbers..You admit that all you care about is the small sample size of this year?

You admit that you don't care that he is changing positions and that he should be as good in LF right now as he was iN CF..a position he played for years.

He wasn't that spectacular in CF, just average to above if you look at his MiL stats.

And why can a player like Manny Ramirez switch from RF to LF in one season and not have as many issues as Pie is having? I don't recall him having problems judging the ball.

The reason Pie is having so many struggles is that he's not a baseball player, but an athlete IMO. He's still raw and instincts can't be taught. You may produce at one level, but atheticism can only get you so far if you don't have the instincts and I think we are seeing that with Pie. He's got the tools, but doesn't have the baseball player mindset to use them and that is hurting him at the pro level.

[Burg]

He wasn't that spectacular in CF, just average to above if you look at his MiL stats.

And why can a player like Manny Ramirez switch from RF to LF in one season and not have as many issues as Pie is having? I don't recall him having problems judging the ball.

The reason Pie is having so many struggles is that he's not a baseball player, but an athlete IMO. He's still raw and instincts can't be taught. You may produce at one level, but atheticism can only get you so far if you don't have the instincts and I think we are seeing that with Pie. He's got the tools, but doesn't have the baseball player mindset to use them and that is hurting him at the pro level.

You are attempting to bolster your argument by relying on Manny Ramirez's fielding?

And further down the rabbit hole we go . . .

[Sports Guy]

He wasn't that spectacular in CF, just average to above if you look at his MiL stats.

And why can a player like Manny Ramirez switch from RF to LF in one season and not have as many issues as Pie is having? I don't recall him having problems judging the ball.

The reason Pie is having so many struggles is that he's not a baseball player, but an athlete IMO. He's still raw and instincts can't be taught. You may produce at one level, but atheticism can only get you so far if you don't have the instincts and I think we are seeing that with Pie. He's got the tools, but doesn't have the baseball player mindset to use them and that is hurting him at the pro level.

Athletes first, baseball players second do not have the success in the minors that Pie had..You are just flat out wrong here.

[crawdad]

I remember my mistakes. I just don't remember what I first thought of Jones.

I wanted to sign Pierre to be our Leadoff Hitter. Yikes. That was 4 years ago and because of OH I won't make that same mistake again.

Ouch.

Yeah, hopefully other posters remember mistakes as well.

Joe Koshansky
Phil Humber

Those are two errors in talent evaluation that I hope some remember.

[JTrea81]

You are attempting to bolster your argument by relying on Manny Ramirez's fielding?

And further down the rabbit hole we go . . .

Manny Ramirez may not be able to get to balls, but he didn't have problems making a routine play like Pie does. Pie doesn't take good routes to balls and constantly misjudges balls that are hit.

That's not what you expect from a prospect as hyped as he was. He even looked lost in CF in the short time he played there. He misjudges balls, but is able to make up for some of that with his speed, just like Corey Patterson, but unlike Patterson he doesn't even seem to know which balls to go after, hence the near collisions with Jones and the non catch that was behind Izturis.

He may be adjusting at the plate, but he looks like a 19 year old rookie in the field, and maybe even worse than that, and that's all due to him never learning to be a baseball player at an early age IMO.

[JTrea81]

Athletes first, baseball players second do not have the success in the minors that Pie had..You are just flat out wrong here.

Again as I pointed out, he wasn't that spectacular defensively. I'm not talking about his skills at the plate.

[GnatsFan]

His BABIP is 194..League average is anywhere from 270-300.

If Pie had 4 more hits, he would be hitting 250 and have an OBP over 300...He would look that much better.

Yes, he has been unlucky despite what some what to make you think.

Isn't that an over-generalization of a statistic? A player automatically has to have a league average BABIP or he is unlucky? Conversly, anyone with above average BABIP is lucky? Or maybe he just has more quality contact with the ball and routinely hits it harder? Shouldn't we take into account the quality of Pie's balls put into play and not just the fact that he put them in play? Could it be that for the most part his .194 is fully justified up to this point and not the result of poor luck? I'm sure Pie isn't the only one with a low BABIP and I wouldn't just blindly label all those players unlucky... maybe they are just not making solid contact at the moment (which if we rewind the tape Pie for the most part hasn't really been doing. I.e. Weak flyballs and weak groundballs)?

E.g. Andruw Jones had a .231 BABIP last year. I'm guessing that was more the result of suck then poor luck.

[JTrea81]

Isn't that an over-generalization of a statistic? A player automatically has to have a league average BABIP or he is unlucky? Conversly, anyone with above average BABIP is lucky? Or maybe he just has more quality contact with the ball and routinely hits it harder? Shouldn't we take into account the quality of Pie's balls put into play and not just the fact that he put them in play? Could it be that for the most part his .194 is fully justified up to this point and not the result of poor luck? I'm sure Pie isn't the only one with a low BABIP and I wouldn't just blindly label all those players unlucky... maybe they are just not making solid contact at the moment (which if we rewind the tape Pie for the most part hasn't really been doing. I.e. Weak flyballs and weak groundballs)?

E.g. Andruw Jones had a .231 BABIP last year. I'm guessing that was more the result of suck then poor luck.

I thought BABIP was a more accurate stat for pitcher's luck and the defense behind them than anything else...

I agree for hitters, they have control because they try to hit it into play and hitting it where the defenders aren't does involve skill. And the hitter has more control than the pitcher of where the ball is going to go.

[GnatsFan]

I thought BABIP was a more accurate stat for pitcher's luck and the defense behind them than anything else...

I agree for hitters, they have control because they try to hit it into play and hitting it where the defenders aren't iboth involves skill and some luck.

Yep, I mean if we just went by BABIP and found two players with the same amount of BBs & Ks, but one was batting .330 and the other was batting .213 its as if some would conclude the only reason for the separation was luck... which seems to be a distortion of a stat... in this case BABIP.

[crawdad]

Isn't that an over-generalization of a statistic? A player automatically has to have a league average BABIP or he is unlucky? Conversly, anyone with above average BABIP is lucky? Or maybe he just has more quality contact with the ball and routinely hits it harder? Shouldn't we take into account the quality of Pie's balls put into play? Could it be that for the most part his .194 is fully justified up to this point and not the result of poor luck? I'm sure Pie isn't the only one with a low BABIP and I wouldn't just blindly label all those players unlucky... maybe they are just not making solid contact at the moment (which if we rewind the tape Pie for the most part hasn't really been doing. I.e. Weak flyballs and weak groundballs)?

E.g. Andruw Jones had a .231 BABIP last year. I'm guessing that was more the result of suck then poor luck.

Well, I think SG is not giving you the right metrics. Pie has a .24 line drive rate, but a .206 BABIP based on the stat line available to me. Line drives are line drives. There really is not much to tear apart there. Line drives fall for hit 73% of the time. No one deviates from this by more than a couple percentage points over a career line. It is just a very weird line.

[Sm00tSmack]

He will be here soon... and he will beast out!

[crawdad]

I thought BABIP was a more accurate stat for pitcher's luck and the defense behind them than anything else...

I agree for hitters, they have control because they try to hit it into play and hitting it where the defenders aren't does involve skill. And the hitter has more control than the pitcher of where the ball is going to go.

Right. BABIP is tighter for pitchers than it is for hitters because pitchers tend to induce the same kind of contact depending on what kind of pitcher they are. Hitters are more varied due to opposition and hitting style.

Sports Guy is not presenting you the argument in the right way. He is overstating what BABIP can explain.

The point of BABIP is then to look at how it has been generated. Based on hit profile of Pie . . . you would expect a much better avg/obp/slg. It is truly remarkable how unusual his line is.

He should be hitting in the mid to high 200s.

[GnatsFan]

Well, I think SG is not giving you the right metrics. Pie has a .24 line drive rate, but a .206 BABIP based on the stat line available to me. Line drives are line drives. There really is not much to tear apart there. Line drives fall for hit 73% of the time. No one deviates from this by more than a couple percentage points over a career line. It is just a very weird line.

There is a little to tear apart and that being the fine line between a line drive and a flyball, but yeah generally I agree... even some of Pie's softly hit line drives if placed a little better and we could easily be talking a few extra base hits as it seems like a lot of his line drives have thus far been more or less relatively close to the defenders. Would be nice to see him yank one down the right field line for his 1st double (which I saw him do a lot with the Cubbies in ST), but considering the coaches want him to go the other way and try to hit grounders I can see why we haven't seen them yet. I can patiently wait...

[crawdad]

There is a little to tear apart and that being the fine line between a line drive and a flyball, but yeah generally I agree... even some of Pie's softly hit line drives if placed a little better and we could easily be talking a few extra base hits as it seems like a lot of his line drives have thus far been more or less relatively close to the defenders. Would be nice to see him yank one down the right field line for his 1st double (which I saw him do a lot with the Cubbies in ST), but considering the coaches want him to go the other way and try to hit grounders I can see why we haven't seen them yet. I can patiently wait...

I think he has faced a whole lot of bad luck and he is not graceful. His defense is actually much improved from the beginning of the year. He is not the gold glove guy we were expecting, but he really is not far away from that if he continues to progress. It seems that maybe he had difficulty reading balls hit to left field. Projectile perspective is slightly different. Players often have little issue other than knowing where people will be when they switch from one corner to the other, but center to the corners has a bit more transition required.

That said . . . Pie with normal luck is a 750 OPS guy. He needs to have very good defense to be average in terms of production. If he can push up his defense or get himself in the low to mid 800 OPS range . . . he can stay there. If not, he should be an average to above average MLB CF for another team.

[JTrea81]

I'm not as concerned with his hitting as I am with his defense. For all the hype he's recieved as being a good defender, from what I've seen even in CF he doesn't show it and his minor league defensive stats don't show that he's a superior defender either.

If Pie's defensive problems are a result of a lack of instincts, he's not going to be able to overcome that IMO. And if he's not a good defender, that takes away all the value from his bat, as he doesn't have Adam Jones' future potential at the plate IMO.

Luke Scott was one of the best defensive LFers in baseball. And if Pie can't meet or exceed his defense or offense, there's no point in Pie being in LF full time. Reimold has a chance at meeting or exceeding Scott's offense IMO even though his defense may not be as good, but the fact that he's a possible upgrade in one category is good enough for me to see what he can do out there for the rest of the season.

[crawdad]

I'm not as concerned with his hitting as I am with his defense. For all the hype he's recieved as being a good defender, from what I've seen even in CF he doesn't show it and his minor league defensive stats don't show that he's a superior defender either.

If Pie's defensive problems are a result of a lack of instincts, he's not going to be able to overcome that IMO. And if he's not a good defender, that takes away all the value from his bat, as he doesn't have Adam Jones' future potential at the plate IMO.

Luke Scott was one of the best defensive LFers in baseball. And if Pie can't meet or exceed his defense or offense, there's no point in Pie being in LF full time. Reimold has a chance at meeting or exceeding Scott's offense IMO even though his defense may not be as good, but the fact that he's a possible upgrade in one category is good enough for me to see what he can do out there for the rest of the season.

Luke Scott is not one of the best defensive LFers in baseball. Jeez. You are way overselling a point. Scott is toward the lower end of the top third LFers in baseball. He is average to above average.

Second, Pie flashed a plus glove in CF in the minors, but was never considered above average there. He had a good arm and good range, but his first step and routes left some to be desired. By the time his got to AAA and MLB . . . he refined his approach and was considered average in CF and still learning. The idea was that switching to left field, he would be above average to very good in left. His arm plays quite well there and he has very good range for a left fielder. He did not immediately adapt to left field as quickly as some would hope. The last couple of weeks he rates about average, but he is improving.

[Sports Guy]

Right. BABIP is tighter for pitchers than it is for hitters because pitchers tend to induce the same kind of contact depending on what kind of pitcher they are. Hitters are more varied due to opposition and hitting style.

Sports Guy is not presenting you the argument in the right way. He is overstating what BABIP can explain.

The point of BABIP is then to look at how it has been generated. Based on hit profile of Pie . . . you would expect a much better avg/obp/slg. It is truly remarkable how unusual his line is.

He should be hitting in the mid to high 200s.
Bottom line is his LD% is high and his BABIP is ridiculously low...He has clearly been unlucky.

That can't be argued and that is my point.

[crawdad]

Bottom line is his LD% is high and his BABIP is ridiculously low...He has clearly been unlucky.

That can't be argued and that is my point.

I agree with that bottom line.

[Dipper9]

Here is a quip from CBS Sports Fantasy Baseball about Nolan...

Nolan Reimold, OF BAL
News: Orioles outfield prospect Nolan Reimold is hitting an amazing .417 with six homers (two Sunday) and 19 RBI in only 16 games back at Triple-A Norfolk. Orioles manager Dave Trembley has noticed, reports MASNsports.com. "He ended spring training on a real upswing," Trembley said Monday. "I talked to our scouts about him. He's off to a real nice start and I hope it continues because he's a guy that we all feel can help us. When that is, I'm not sure, but I know he is probably a lot further along than we all anticipated at this particular point in time."
Analysis: Reimold is a future 30-homer threat and a potential June 1 call-up for the Orioles, who are slotting guys like underwhelming Felix Pie and Luke Scott in left. Scott primarily DHs, so Reimold could be called up even before June 1. "If he came here, I would think the opportunity would be for him to play, not be a reserve," Trembley said. Reimold would be an impact player in all AL-only and some deeper mixed leagues right now.

[Sports Guy]

I'm not as concerned with his hitting as I am with his defense. For all the hype he's recieved as being a good defender, from what I've seen even in CF he doesn't show it and his minor league defensive stats don't show that he's a superior defender either.

If Pie's defensive problems are a result of a lack of instincts, he's not going to be able to overcome that IMO. And if he's not a good defender, that takes away all the value from his bat, as he doesn't have Adam Jones' future potential at the plate IMO.

Luke Scott was one of the best defensive LFers in baseball. And if Pie can't meet or exceed his defense or offense, there's no point in Pie being in LF full time. Reimold has a chance at meeting or exceeding Scott's offense IMO even though his defense may not be as good, but the fact that he's a possible upgrade in one category is good enough for me to see what he can do out there for the rest of the season.

They aren't.

Stop relying on MiL defensive stats...They are a guide...nothing more.

He has always been a brilliant defensive player.

[GnatsFan]

Just curious... where are you guys able to find BABIP based upon hit type?

i.e. BABIP on LDs; BABIP on GBs; BABIP on FBs

[Dipper9]

They aren't.

Stop relying on MiL defensive stats...They are a guide...nothing more.

He has always been a brilliant defensive player.

You have finally managed to confuse me SG. You tell me and Jtrea and TyCobb not to ignore Minor League stats when we say, "What has Pie done to deserve a chance?" Then, you say to ignore minor league stats when looking at his fielding? You can't have it both ways!

[crawdad]

Just curious... where are you guys able to find BABIP based upon hit type?

i.e. BABIP on LDs; BABIP on GBs; BABIP on FBs

There have been a few studies. I am doing it based on memory.

Here is a short thing on it: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/expected-babip-for-pitchers

[GnatsFan]

He has always been a brilliant defensive player.

WOAH :eektf:

Pull back the reins there cowboy.

[crawdad]

You have finally managed to confuse me SG. You tell me and Jtrea and TyCobb not to ignore Minor League stats when we say, "What has Pie done to deserve a chance?" Then, you say to ignore minor league stats when looking at his fielding? You can't have it both ways!

Actually, he is right about fielding stats being more difficult to use than offensive stats. First off, there are really no useful fielding stats available to the public for minor league performance. Second, it is hard to back calculate them like you can with decades past because the play by play data just is not there. You should almost completely rely on scouting for defensive ability in the minors.

[crawdad]

They aren't.

Stop relying on MiL defensive stats...They are a guide...nothing more.

He has always been a brilliant defensive player.

Yeah, that is completely untrue.

See, you were coming from a strong point and I think you are mainly in the right. Then you make up something like this. He has never been considered a plus defender. He was below average with traits that gave him the potential to be a plus defender . . . he never was though.

[snatch311]

Here is context for Pie's luck:

Since 2004, the lowest qualified O's hitter BABIP was Kevin Millar last year at .245, and that came with 19% line drive percentage and a 30% groundball percentage (so 51% of his balls in play were flyballs or popups, which generate more outs)

Pie has a .200ish BABIP with a 24% ld% and a 36% groundball percentage.

Actually the closest comp is Markakis so far this year, who with relatively similar LD% and GB% has a .400+ BABIP.

Expanding it to non O's, guys with 24/25% LD%s and 36ish GB%s

Michael Young 2004- .333 BABIP
Chone Figgins 2004- .346 BABIP
Morneau 2006- .328 BABIP

In fact, the lowest BABIP in all of the AL in the last 5 years with an LD% > 20% is .248.

So if you can't see how Pie has been unlucky, you probably didn't understand a word of what you just read.

[GnatsFan]

In fact, the lowest BABIP in all of the AL in the last 5 years with an LD% > 20% is .248.

So if you can't see how Pie has been unlucky, you probably didn't understand a word of what you just read.

Any way to figure out what Pie's BABIP is by category?

BABIP on LDs
BABIP on GBs
BABIP on FBs

:confused:

I see he has 8 hits. is there a site to see if they all came off line drives?

[GnatsFan]

There have been a few studies. I am doing it based on memory.

Here is a short thing on it: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/expected-babip-for-pitchers

Thanks for the link BTW.:thumbsup1:

[crawdad]

Any way to figure out what Pie's BABIP is by category?

BABIP on LDs
BABIP on GBs
BABIP on FBs

:confused:

I see he has 8 hits. is there a site to see if they all came off line drives?

Nothing readily available. You have to dive into the play by play.

[snatch311]

Any way to figure out what Pie's BABIP is by category?

BABIP on LDs
BABIP on GBs
BABIP on FBs

:confused:

I see he has 8 hits. is there a site to see if they all came off line drives?

Tracked it down for you on the ones in play.

Hit 1- LD against NYY
Hit 2- LD against NYY
Hit 3- LD against Tex
Hit 4- LD Against Tex
Hit 5- FB against Chi
Hit 6- LD against Chi
Hit 7- LD against Tex

This is all according to MLB.com gameday, so I'm not sure if they're tracking data 100% the same as THT (where im getting my ball in play data).

So 6 hits on LDs (like I said he should have) 1 hit on FBs (compared to the 2 that he "should" have) and 0 hits on 13 GBs.

But ya, if people think that it's normal to go 1 for 22 or so on GBs and FBs in play. If they think it's not bad luck at all, then what can I say?

[Sports Guy]

Yeah, that is completely untrue.

See, you were coming from a strong point and I think you are mainly in the right. Then you make up something like this. He has never been considered a plus defender. He was below average with traits that gave him the potential to be a plus defender . . . he never was though.

Never considered that by who? You?

I have read many scouting reports that disagree with that. I have always read that he is a plus defender.

[Big Mac]

Felix Pie and Nolan Reimold should both be on this team.

This is a very good problem to have.

[rolliefingers]

I remember my perspective about players because it lets me know when I am right and when I am wrong. It helps me hone my skills and make myself better. Forgetting your past critiques does not help you progress as an evaluator.

Huh. You lost me there. I thought that learning from your mistakes made you gay.

[crawdad]

Never considered that by who? You?

I have read many scouting reports that disagree with that. I have always read that he is a plus defender.

I have never heard of him being called a plus defender. Callis, Law, Sickells, etc none of them has ever mentioned him being considered a plus defender. He was always below average in the field, but with the raw talent to be plus. He has never achieved plus. Both Law and Sickells went out of their way to mention that playing an average CF for the Cubs was the best they had ever seen of him and that they thought he was poised to make good strides on defense.

Here is a quick cite I can find:
http://www.minorleagueball.com/story/2008/2/16/16476/4956

Your memory must be faulty or you read guys off the grid.

[crawdad]

Tracked it down for you on the ones in play.

Hit 1- LD against NYY
Hit 2- LD against NYY
Hit 3- LD against Tex
Hit 4- LD Against Tex
Hit 5- FB against Chi
Hit 6- LD against Chi
Hit 7- LD against Tex

This is all according to MLB.com gameday, so I'm not sure if they're tracking data 100% the same as THT (where im getting my ball in play data).

So 6 hits on LDs (like I said he should have) 1 hit on FBs (compared to the 2 that he "should" have) and 0 hits on 13 GBs.

But ya, if people think that it's normal to go 1 for 22 or so on GBs and FBs in play. If they think it's not bad luck at all, then what can I say?

You are missing a fly ball hit on April 13th against Texas.

[GnatsFan]

[...]

So 6 hits on LDs (like I said he should have) 1 hit on FBs (compared to the 2 that he "should" have) and 0 hits on 13 GBs.

[...]

So in summary... all his bad luck thus far is coming on ground balls?

[snatch311]

You are missing a fly ball hit on April 13th against Texas.

Haha, doesn't count for BABIP.

[snatch311]

So in summary... all his bad luck thus far is coming on ground balls?

He should have hits on ABOUT 25% of GBs and FBs in play, and he has 1 in 22 abs. If he had 5 hits in 22 at bats, it'd still be below average luck, but he'd be hitting .250

So the question is, if Pie had "bad" but reasonable luck, and had that .250/.328 line that I brought up earlier (slug around .390 we'll say), would people look at .250/.328/.390 and call him a bum that could never ever play and didn't belong in the majors at any point ever?

[Sports Guy]

http://www.cubshub.com/?p=479

BA has talked about his excellent arm..talking both in terms of strength and accuracy.

Now, reading over some things, I do see that he has improved but hasn't ALWAYS been considered that...I guess I either heard that from the Cubs fans on here or something like that discussing it.

Lots of talk about how his speed has allowed him to run down balls but hasn't always taken the right route to get to the balls.

And AM has certainly praised his defense a lot...And many people discussed how having Jones, Markakis and Pie would give us a great defensive OF.

[Dipper9]

http://www.cubshub.com/?p=479

BA has talked about his excellent arm..talking both in terms of strength and accuracy.

Now, reading over some things, I do see that he has improved but hasn't ALWAYS been considered that...I guess I either heard that from the Cubs fans on here or something like that discussing it.

Lots of talk about how his speed has allowed him to run down balls but hasn't always taken the right route to get to the balls.

And AM has certainly praised his defense a lot...And many people discussed how having Jones, Markakis and Pie would give us a great defensive OF.

Geeze, when I mentioned that I noticed this in yesterday's game (when I was 50 feet away, no less) I was told by RZNJ that I am wrong and just being biased towards Pie and that I was no major league scout. I guess now that YOU have found "evidence" RZNJ will believe you! :rolleyes:

[crawdad]

http://www.cubshub.com/?p=479

BA has talked about his excellent arm..talking both in terms of strength and accuracy.

Now, reading over some things, I do see that he has improved but hasn't ALWAYS been considered that...I guess I either heard that from the Cubs fans on here or something like that discussing it.

Lots of talk about how his speed has allowed him to run down balls but hasn't always taken the right route to get to the balls.

And AM has certainly praised his defense a lot...And many people discussed how having Jones, Markakis and Pie would give us a great defensive OF.

He has a very good arm and good accuracy. He has never been a plus defender though. The idea that he would be this season was because his speed and arm would be above what one typically has as a left fielder.

[amateurfan]

He should have hits on ABOUT 25% of GBs and FBs in play, and he has 1 in 22 abs. If he had 5 hits in 22 at bats, it'd still be below average luck, but he'd be hitting .250

So the question is, if Pie had "bad" but reasonable luck, and had that .250/.328 line that I brought up earlier (slug around .390 we'll say), would people look at .250/.328/.390 and call him a bum that could never ever play and didn't belong in the majors at any point ever?

I don't understand why he should have hits on 25% of his GBs and FBs. I don't understand the reason in projecting his GB back to league average when the average for BABIP is not an indicator of individual success. I just don't know.

Considering the number of PAs he's had anyways, isn't better to evaluate the quality of GBs rather than the number?

[snatch311]

One last point:

If Adam Jones had Pie's "luck" with balls in play this year, he'd be hitting .196.

If Nick Markakis had Pie's "luck" with balls in play this year, he'd be hitting .194

If Brian Roberts had Pie's "luck" with balls in play this year, he'd be hitting .206

So, obviously Pie's BABIP has something to do with something.

[GnatsFan]

He should have hits on ABOUT 25% of GBs and FBs in play, and he has 1 in 22 abs. If he had 5 hits in 22 at bats, it'd still be below average luck, but he'd be hitting .250

So the question is, if Pie had "bad" but reasonable luck, and had that .250/.328 line that I brought up earlier (slug around .390 we'll say), would people look at .250/.328/.390 and call him a bum that could never ever play and didn't belong in the majors at any point ever?

I think that's where the luck/no luck sides are bumping slightly. Why should he be entitled to a 25% hit rate on groundballs and flyballs when his GBs and FBs have been so weakly and routinely hit?

Someone said his BABIP is too low for his LD%, but his BABIP on LDs is league average isn't it? So, no bad luck on his line drives.

His BABIP is just slightly too low for his FB%, but he fell into a horrible slump of weakly hit routine flyballs. So, not really any bad luck on his fly balls as it was his own fault.

His BABIP is incredibly low for his GB%, but he hasn't hit any worthy groundballs after the first two games. So, is it bad luck or very poor quality groundballs?

Well... hmmm... guess there isn't much farther we can take this... I have a feeling most will agree with you, but I'm okay with that... just had to get that off my chest. ;)

[snatch311]

I don't understand why he should have hits on 25% of his GBs and FBs. I don't understand the reason in projecting his GB back to league average when the average for BABIP is not an indicator of individual success. I just don't know.

Considering the number of PAs he's had anyways, isn't better to evaluate the quality of GBs rather than the number?

It's not enough data either way. The point is that, if his luck was good, we'd be thinking he was the second coming. As is, his luck has been astronomically bad, so people think he's garbage.

[crawdad]

I think that's where the luck/no luck sides are bumping slightly. Why should he be entitled to a 25% hit rate on groundballs and flyballs when his GBs and FBs have been so weakly and routinely hit?

Someone said his BABIP is too low for his LD%, but his BABIP on LDs is league average isn't it? So, no bad luck on his line drives.

His BABIP is just slightly too low for his FB%, but he fell into a horrible slump of weakly hit routine flyballs. So, not really any bad luck on his fly balls as it was his own fault.

His BABIP is incredibly low for his GB%, but he hasn't hit any worthy groundballs after the first two games. So, is it bad luck or very poor quality groundballs?

Well... hmmm... guess there isn't much farther we can take this... I have a feeling most will agree with you, but I'm okay with that... just had to get that off my chest. ;)

That was me. I'll let you know where that comment was coming from. I had not done the inner working of the data yet and a rough estimate is often just adding 12% to LD% to come up with a rough estimate. When I began running numbers, I saw a lower rate. This is primarily due to the fact that Pie puts fewer balls in play than a typical player . . . as we all have seen. Still, that number was high because it normalized the hits. Looking at the specific data, you can see the discrepancy comes from groundballs.

Regarding the other comments . . . the reason why BABIP is rough to use as a predictor is because so many things go into BABIP, such as LD, GB, FB, InfFB, and Bunts. At this level . . . basically line drives are line drives. Fly balls are fly balls. Ground balls are typically hard or soft.

That said . . . if all Pie hit were soft grounders . . . he would be able to leg a couple out on average. I think more of what is happening is that he is just hitting grounders to people. That is where the bad luck was coming into play.

[crawdad]

It's not enough data either way. The point is that, if his luck was good, we'd be thinking he was the second coming. As is, his luck has been astronomically bad, so people think he's garbage.

Right. In general his tendencies are probably going to regress to the mean. He will hit a streak (if someone lets him play) where more grounders make it through than they should.

[amateurfan]

It's not enough data either way. The point is that, if his luck was good, we'd be thinking he was the second coming. As is, his luck has been astronomically bad, so people think he's garbage.

I'm more interested in the process than anyone's ideas on Pie right now. The luck, which of course happens, is the key with Pie. Is he really the victim of bad luck or is he not a good hitter? That's why I was asking questions, just to learn, and you seem knowledgeable.

Is there information on GBs and BABIP that contains information on defense, defense shifts and quality of ball hit? Is that even important? Last week, I forget which team, a manager put the shift on Huff. He took an outside pitch the opposite way on a grounder and got a hit. That's not luck, but a good piece of hitting (and it seemed like he intended to do that). I haven't kept track of Pie's hits so I don't know.

[crawdad]

I'm more interested in the process than anyone's ideas on Pie right now. The luck, which of course happens, is the key with Pie. Is he really the victim of bad luck or is he not a good hitter? That's why I was asking questions, just to learn, and you seem knowledgeable.

Is there information on GBs and BABIP that contains information on defense, defense shifts and quality of ball hit? Is that even important? Last week, I forget which team, a manager put the shift on Huff. He took an outside pitch the opposite way on a grounder and got a hit. That's not luck, but a good piece of hitting (and it seemed like he intended to do that). I haven't kept track of Pie's hits so I don't know.

He could be both.

Yeah, defense shifts and GB quality is very important, but that is data we do not have. I imagine a front office somewhere has that, but it is not accessible to the general public.

[amateurfan]

That was me. I'll let you know where that comment was coming from. I had not done the inner working of the data yet and a rough estimate is often just adding 12% to LD% to come up with a rough estimate. When I began running numbers, I saw a lower rate. This is primarily due to the fact that Pie puts fewer balls in play than a typical player . . . as we all have seen. Still, that number was high because it normalized the hits. Looking at the specific data, you can see the discrepancy comes from groundballs.

Regarding the other comments . . . the reason why BABIP is rough to use as a predictor is because so many things go into BABIP, such as LD, GB, FB, InfFB, and Bunts. At this level . . . basically line drives are line drives. Fly balls are fly balls. Ground balls are typically hard or soft.

That said . . . if all Pie hit were soft grounders . . . he would be able to leg a couple out on average. I think more of what is happening is that he is just hitting grounders to people. That is where the bad luck was coming into play.

Isn't that bad hitting and not bad luck? It does seem to me that I never see IFs diving to stop Pie's GBs.

[amateurfan]

He could be both.

Yeah, defense shifts and GB quality is very important, but that is data we do not have. I imagine a front office somewhere has that, but it is not accessible to the general public.


This answers my other post - so thank you. This was good and I appreciate you and 311 discussing it.

[GnatsFan]

That said . . . if all Pie hit were soft grounders . . . he would be able to leg a couple out on average. I think more of what is happening is that he is just hitting grounders to people. That is where the bad luck was coming into play.

True... in the first few games he was hitting groundballs to the left side [if he kept doing this I'd give him bad luck points], but ever since its been 3 and 4 rollover hoppers to 2B and 1B where his speed is negated... so weakly hit that it doesn't have to be right at the fielder for a fielder to make a play. Hence, I'm not granting him the league average of 25%. While guys like Markakis, B'Rob, and Jones have such higher BABIPs because they are flat out scorching the ball... low grounders that one skip into the outfield. There is definitely some luck to be extrapolated from BABIP, but if looked at on a base by base case sometimes a low and high BABIP can be attributed to skill where the the highly skilled players (high BABIPs) mixed with the poorly skilled players (low BABIPs) create this notion of a measurement of league average luck.

[snatch311]

I'm more interested in the process than anyone's ideas on Pie right now. The luck, which of course happens, is the key with Pie. Is he really the victim of bad luck or is he not a good hitter? That's why I was asking questions, just to learn, and you seem knowledgeable.

Is there information on GBs and BABIP that contains information on defense, defense shifts and quality of ball hit? Is that even important? Last week, I forget which team, a manager put the shift on Huff. He took an outside pitch the opposite way on a grounder and got a hit. That's not luck, but a good piece of hitting (and it seemed like he intended to do that). I haven't kept track of Pie's hits so I don't know.

The shift KILLS guys that they use it on. For example, there was a year where Giambi hit .94 worse on grounders when there was no one on.

Speedy hitters SHOULD have higher BABIP on GBs than slower players (that's logic isn't it). I am offsetting my view of Pie as a below average hitter with the fact that he has above average speed.

[crawdad]

True... in the first few games he was hitting groundballs to the left side [if he kept doing this I'd give him bad luck points], but ever since its been 3 and 4 rollover hoppers to 2B and 1B where his speed is negated... so weakly hit that it doesn't have to be right at the fielder for a fielder to make a play. Hence, I'm not granting him the league average of 25%. While guys like Markakis, B'Rob, and Jones have such higher BABIPs because they are flat out scorching the ball... low grounders that one skip into the outfield. There is definitely some luck to be extrapolated from BABIP, but if looked at on a base by base case sometimes a low and high BABIP can be attributed to skill where the the highly skilled players (high BABIPs) mixed with the poorly skilled players (low BABIPs) create this notion of a measurement of league average luck.

I have not noticed such an extreme shift in his groundball rates. I have noticed hard hit bats. I just worry that such definite assumptions are a bit too homogenous and not exactly what I would expect from the type of swing Pie has. He does induce soft grounders, but I has seen a few hard ones too.

[snatch311]

True... in the first few games he was hitting groundballs to the left side [if he kept doing this I'd give him bad luck points], but ever since its been 3 and 4 rollover hoppers to 2B and 1B where his speed is negated... so weakly hit that it doesn't have to be right at the fielder for a fielder to make a play. Hence, I'm not granting him the league average of 25%. While guys like Markakis, B'Rob, and Jones have such higher BABIPs because they are flat out scorching the ball... low grounders that one skip into the outfield. There is definitely some luck to be extrapolated from BABIP, but if looked at on a base by base case sometimes a low and high BABIP can be attributed to skill where the the highly skilled players (high BABIPs) mixed with the poorly skilled players (low BABIPs) create this notion of a measurement of league average luck.

Sure, so that's why I took a hit away from him vs. the average when I gave him the .250

Obviously the best players in the league are going to have the highest BABIPs, but there's a ton of total garbage that's near the top right now. Unless you think Jesus Flores is MVP.

[snatch311]

Also, you don't see the Pie supporters getting reactionary and saying "Oh My God, he's walked 6 times in 55 PAs. Once the hits start dropping, he's going to be even better than anyone thought!!!!!!!!!"

[amateurfan]

Pie's k/pa varied in the minors from 16% to 27%. The 16% was his last year in AAA (his third time there).

Is there information available on his GB, FB, and LD percentages from the minors? I think this is important especially considering his rate of contact. The year he exploded in AAA (2007), he struck out just about 21% of the time. Is it possible that his .362 avg was the result of good luck? Even if it is good hitting, what is the likelihood (or historical precedence) for maintaining such a high average with such a high k rate?

I have been a proponent of giving Pie time, but there are new questions that I have about his chances of success.

[GnatsFan]

Is there information available on his GB, FB, and LD percentages from the minors?

http://www.minorleaguesplits.com/cgi-bin/pl.cgi

Link kinda not working... gotta type in Pie's name once at the link.

[GnatsFan]

I have not noticed such an extreme shift in his groundball rates. I have noticed hard hit bats. I just worry that such definite assumptions are a bit too homogenous and not exactly what I would expect from the type of swing Pie has. He does induce soft grounders, but I has seen a few hard ones too.

Unfortunately it is there... not sure why he is doing it... haven't looked, but I'd guess most of his hits were to LF, which would make all his GBs towards RF quite odd. And as you pointed out... he has a good swing for going the other way.

Picture of his GB by direction [hit charts]: http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll188/peanutsticks/PieGBs.jpg

[snatch311]

Pie's k/pa varied in the minors from 16% to 27%. The 16% was his last year in AAA (his third time there).

Is there information available on his GB, FB, and LD percentages from the minors? I think this is important especially considering his rate of contact. The year he exploded in AAA (2007), he struck out just about 21% of the time. Is it possible that his .362 avg was the result of good luck? Even if it is good hitting, what is the likelihood (or historical precedence) for maintaining such a high average with such a high k rate?

I have been a proponent of giving Pie time, but there are new questions that I have about his chances of success.

I dont think there's info of minor league ball in play %s readily available. You can compile them manually using minorleaguebaseball.com, but be a LOT of effort.

K'ing 20% of PAs = high k-rate right?

Just saw Gnatfan's post. "Should've" hit .303 in 2007, but that's saying that minor league fielders are as good as major league fielders, which they aren't.

[amateurfan]

I dont think there's info of minor league ball in play %s readily available. You can compile them manually using minorleaguebaseball.com, but be a LOT of effort.

K'ing 20% of PAs = high k-rate right?

I thought so, but maybe I'm wrong.

[crawdad]

Pie's k/pa varied in the minors from 16% to 27%. The 16% was his last year in AAA (his third time there).

Is there information available on his GB, FB, and LD percentages from the minors? I think this is important especially considering his rate of contact. The year he exploded in AAA (2007), he struck out just about 21% of the time. Is it possible that his .362 avg was the result of good luck? Even if it is good hitting, what is the likelihood (or historical precedence) for maintaining such a high average with such a high k rate?

I have been a proponent of giving Pie time, but there are new questions that I have about his chances of success.

Eh, if you look at his 2008 rate in Iowa . . . based on the generalized formula he should have gotten 97 hits. He instead got 99. Not sure if that helps with anything.

I do think his big year had some helium in it.

[crawdad]

Unfortunately it is there... not sure why he is doing it... haven't looked, but I'd guess most of his hits were to LF, which would make all his GBs towards RF quite odd. And as you pointed out... he has a good swing for going the other way.

Picture of his GB by direction [hit charts]: http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll188/peanutsticks/PieGBs.jpg

I am referring to strength of grounder, not location. I think I may have skipped a beat in my thinking. I guess you were referring to the slow grounder idea I had in passing.

I am now referring toward making the strength of grounder a generic concept as my previous post shows.

[Hank Scorpio]

Stockstill on Reimold :


"He was at Double-A last year and hurt the year before. To take him up to the big leagues now would be rushing him. To leave him in Triple-A would be pretty normal," Stockstill said. "... The plan for right now is to have him do his best every day and we'll see."


http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-sp.minors27apr27,0,6405529.story

[JTrea81]

Pie's k/pa varied in the minors from 16% to 27%. The 16% was his last year in AAA (his third time there).

Is there information available on his GB, FB, and LD percentages from the minors? I think this is important especially considering his rate of contact. The year he exploded in AAA (2007), he struck out just about 21% of the time. Is it possible that his .362 avg was the result of good luck? Even if it is good hitting, what is the likelihood (or historical precedence) for maintaining such a high average with such a high k rate?

I have been a proponent of giving Pie time, but there are new questions that I have about his chances of success.

Here is what you are looking for:

http://www.minorleaguesplits.com/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?pl=429712