MacPhail on Hobgood

[Hank Scorpio]

http://masnsports.com/2009/06/a-little-more-from-macphail.html


"It distresses me and annoys me that, because the kid wants to go out and play baseball, somehow that's a strike against him. Like all of a sudden, this was a signability pick. They loved the kid. He's immensely talented and they just loved the kid. He wanted to pitch for the Orioles and he's a great, mature kid and Joe (Jordan) just, all things being equal, fell in love with the kid. But it's somehow a detriment that he wants to sign. It really annoys me. It's really, really repugnant that the guy who you have to beg to come play is somehow held in higher regard. I just don't see it. I'm delighted we got the kid, and so is Joe, and that's what matters."

[Lucky Jim]

http://masnsports.com/2009/06/a-little-more-from-macphail.html

Well, that couldn't be much more clear.

[Frobby]

I think the pick is perceived that way because, prior to the draft, scouting publications such as BA didn't rank Hobgood as a top 5 pick, or even a top 10. So, that creates the perception that signability was a factor. It's not a case of outsiders downgrading him because he wasn't viewed as a difficult sign, it's a case of outsiders not ranking him that highly to begin with.

Joe Jordan thinks differently, and that's fine with me. I believe 100% that he went with Hobgood because he thought he was the best player available, and not because he was an easy sign. If outsiders have a different perception, I don't really care.

[Anlbdz]

I believe Jordan weighed the perceived costs with the potential benefits. I think although Matzek probably would have been a better pick, his cost made it prohibitive (as he seemed to be asking for an astounding amount of money). So he looked at the next level of pitchers and really liked Hobgood and went with his gut. I have no problem with this, he probably saw a kid that was enthusiastic with a great head on his shoulders, built like a horse with plus potential and went with him over the others.

Sure maybe he is a bit more signable, but doesn't that factor into things in the business world. I have no problem with him being labled "signable." who cares, it's not like we drafted some scrub who we could low ball. We drafted a guy who we really liked, who might come a touch cheaper than some of the other guys, but we feel can be every bit as good.

That's called a quality business decision.

Plus, Matt sounds like a beast. he's no toothpick HS pitcher.

can we please just call him Hoss? Hoss Hobgood?

[Pruke]

http://masnsports.com/2009/06/a-little-more-from-macphail.html

So..any thoughts on how Andy really feels?

I'm all for the pick. Whether he's considered the best talent at 5 or not - his attitude and desire make up for any potential 'delta' there.

Love that pick.

[JTrea81]

The guy wasn't held in high regard due to the fact as he wasn't as talented as a couple of the other pitchers going after him according to most scouts. Matzek was the most talented pitcher in the draft after Strasburg and that is why he wants the most money.

If anything this shows that MacPhail is more concerned about signablility than having the most talent, and that is not a good thing. I think he's annoyed because suddenly people are calling him on his frugality and they should given the resources this club has at its disposal.

At worst had we not signed our pick, we would have had the 6th pick in the draft next year. We didn't have to draft a signability pick.

[tywright]

The guy wasn't held in high regard due to the fact as he wasn't as talented as a couple of the other pitchers going after him according to most scouts. Matzek was the most talented pitcher in the draft after Strasburg and that is why he wants the most money.

If anything this shows that MacPhail is more concerned about signablility than having the most talent, and that is not a good thing. I think he's annoyed because suddenly people are calling him on his frugality and they should given the resources this club has at its disposal.

At worst had we not signed our pick, we would have had the 6th pick in the draft next year. We didn't have to draft a signability pick.

Well I'm glad to see you aren't attacking Joe Jordan's credibility as a scout :rolleyes:

[Florida_Osfan]

Love the statement from MacPhail. It needed to be expressed not only to the national media but also to our fellow fans, who for varying reasons, have been critical or skeptical of JJ's drafting strategy.

The more I see, read, and listen to this guy, the more impressed I am with both Hobgood and JJ's scouting of him. The kid is a beast, he's first round talent (as to where is debatable), he wants to sign, he wants to start playing, so what more can you ask? If AMac could get "rep" for the things he says, I'd give it to him for that statement.

[Florida_Osfan]

The guy wasn't held in high regard due to the fact as he wasn't as talented as a couple of the other pitchers going after him according to most scouts. Matzek was the most talented pitcher in the draft after Strasburg and that is why he wants the most money.

If anything this shows that MacPhail is more concerned about signablility than having the most talent, and that is not a good thing. I think he's annoyed because suddenly people are calling him on his frugality and they should given the resources this club has at its disposal.

.

All of this is conjecture sold as fact. This is fallacy 101.

And, I don't mean any disrespect to you, but your trend is to fault AMac first, then ignore the evidence that does exist in favor of your opinion. What is the obsession with the O's being the bad guy? Seriously, I'm curious.

[Lucky Jim]

The guy wasn't held in high regard due to the fact as he wasn't as talented as a couple of the other pitchers going after him according to most scouts. Matzek was the most talented pitcher in the draft after Strasburg and that is why he wants the most money.

If anything this shows that MacPhail is more concerned about signablility than having the most talent, and that is not a good thing. I think he's annoyed because suddenly people are calling him on his frugality and they should given the resources this club has at its disposal.

At worst had we not signed our pick, we would have had the 6th pick in the draft next year. We didn't have to draft a signability pick.

I hope you take a more sophisticated, less delusional approach to the world beyond the Orioles.

[BringBackMagic]

The guy wasn't held in high regard due to the fact as he wasn't as talented as a couple of the other pitchers going after him according to most scouts. Matzek was the most talented pitcher in the draft after Strasburg and that is why he wants the most money.

If anything this shows that MacPhail is more concerned about signablility than having the most talent, and that is not a good thing. I think he's annoyed because suddenly people are calling him on his frugality and they should given the resources this club has at its disposal.

At worst had we not signed our pick, we would have had the 6th pick in the draft next year. We didn't have to draft a signability pick.

Where are you getting this from? I'm reading and re-reading McPhail's quote and he said it's NOT a signability pick. You have your mind made up that it was and no matter what anybody shows you, you are going to have your opinions.

I trust McPhail. I trust Jordan. You didn't scout any of these players. The MLB Draft more than anything is a crap-shoot. It's a high possibility that any player you take is going to bust. And in a year where there is considered 1 "lock" (Strasburg) and then Ackley is considered the closest this after that to a sure thing... Jordan went with a known quantity. Projectability is such a subjective thing.

The best curveball in his class. A low to mid 90s heater. A changeup that's on his way. A "bulldog" mentality like that we love about Arrieta. I think Hobgood has just a good a chance to turning into a star as any of the other HS arms.

[QBsILLEST1]

Ive tried defending the pick for a while now and am not gonna repeat what I have said numerous times, but part of the reason for him not being a high ranker in BA is because when BA did their rankings, he was throwing 92-93. He ended up gaining velo and topping out around 97(I actually read 98, but could have been a fast gun). His 1-2 combo is better than or as good as all of the other prep arms. Matzek has more quality pitches and is a lefty, aside from Matzek, Hobgood for me is as good or better than the rest. Matzek is asking for basically our entire budget for the draft, there is no way to do that, opposite of what Trea is saying, it would actually be a bad business move unless they planned on upping the budget....Forget the BA rankings and grade his stuff and youll see why he was picked 5th.....

[Redgrape]

The guy wasn't held in high regard due to the fact as he wasn't as talented as a couple of the other pitchers going after him according to most scouts. Matzek was the most talented pitcher in the draft after Strasburg and that is why he wants the most money.

If anything this shows that MacPhail is more concerned about signablility than having the most talent, and that is not a good thing. I think he's annoyed because suddenly people are calling him on his frugality and they should given the resources this club has at its disposal.

At worst had we not signed our pick, we would have had the 6th pick in the draft next year. We didn't have to draft a signability pick.

I think your trying to read between the lines from a superbly intelligent statement from Macphail. All he's saying is he doesn't understand why people think just because someone doesn't want to sign immediately is a defining correlate on how good someone is. It's not, its a factor, but certainly not a defining factor.

[JTrea81]

All of this is conjecture sold as fact. This is fallacy 101.

And, I don't mean any disrespect to you, but your trend is to fault AMac first, then ignore the evidence that does exist in favor of your opinion. What is the obsession with the O's being the bad guy? Seriously, I'm curious.


It really annoys me. It's really, really repugnant that the guy who you have to beg to come play is somehow held in higher regard.


There's your evidence. MacPhail doesn't want to have to recruit the player to play for the Orioles. Well I'm sorry, but the Orioles especially in the AL East may have to do some actual recruiting to get top talent here. That is MacPhail's job. The Orioles can't sell themselves, even to a HS kid.

There's a reason you have to beg. It's called the player has talent and wants to be compensated for it and would rather get a college education than possibly be stuck on a losing franchise.

Signable does not necessarily = BPA. The Orioles needed to take the BPA and the jury is certainly out if Hobgood was that...

[Hank Scorpio]

There's your evidence. MacPhail doesn't want to have to recruit the player to play for the Orioles. Well I'm sorry, but the Orioles especially in the AL East may have to do some actual recruiting to get top talent here. That is MacPhail's job. The Orioles can't sell themselves, even to a HS kid.

There's a reason you have to beg. It's called the player has talent and wants to be compensated for it and would rather get a college education than possibly be stuck on a losing franchise.

Signable does not necessarily = BPA. The Orioles needed to take the BPA and the jury is certainly out if Hobgood was that...

:laughlol:

[Mizerooskie]

There's your evidence. MacPhail doesn't want to have to recruit the player to play for the Orioles. Well I'm sorry, but the Orioles especially in the AL East may have to do some actual recruiting to get top talent here. That is MacPhail's job. The Orioles can't sell themselves, even to a HS kid.

There's a reason you have to beg. It's called the player has talent and wants to be compensated for it and would rather get a college education than possibly be stuck on a losing franchise.

Signable does not necessarily = BPA. The Orioles needed to take the BPA and the jury is certainly out if Hobgood was that...

This is just absurd on so many levels. How on Earth is that evidence? He explicitly stated it wasn't a signability pick. The scouts loved Hobgood, so AM picked him. Physical talent is not the whole picture when evaluating a player. Hobgood's makeup is off the charts.

I agree with McPhail that you shouldn't have to beg. It's a draft, not free agency. It's "repugnant" that the agents have turned it into Free Agency-lite.

[BringBackMagic]

There's your evidence. MacPhail doesn't want to have to recruit the player to play for the Orioles. Well I'm sorry, but the Orioles especially in the AL East may have to do some actual recruiting to get top talent here. That is MacPhail's job. The Orioles can't sell themselves, even to a HS kid.

There's a reason you have to beg. It's called the player has talent and wants to be compensated for it and would rather get a college education than possibly be stuck on a losing franchise.

Signable does not necessarily = BPA. The Orioles needed to take the BPA and the jury is certainly out if Hobgood was that...

Like I already said. You are capable of taking any line and twisting it to say what you want it to say. It's almost like dealing with my ex-girlfriend. And unless your name is Krysten, I don't think I ever dated you. But your ability to twist things people say into something they don't mean is astounding.

With that line McPhail is simply stating that many times headcases get the benefit of the doubt as being more talented.

If we're trying to twist it, I see it could be taken in one of two ways.

First, he could be saying that when talent is equal, taking the guy that wants to be there is the obvious choice, which could be the situation here. If Hobgood is on the O's board as an A prospect that wants to sign and Wheeler is an A prospect that needs $4.5 mil to sign and Matzek is an A prospect that needs $7 mil to sign, then Hobgood is the logical selection.

Second, he could be drawing a correlation to the fact that publications like BA that put players in the public eye and hype them, making ridiculous comparisons like Tyler Matzek is going to be like Brian Matusz who is going to be like Cole Hamels fills these players' heads with grandeur and suddenly they want money that they really don't deserve.

In my opinion, I'll take Joe Jordan's rankings ahead of BAs.

[sector7g]

I think the pick is perceived that way because, prior to the draft, scouting publications such as BA didn't rank Hobgood as a top 5 pick, or even a top 10. So, that creates the perception that signability was a factor. It's not a case of outsiders downgrading him because he wasn't viewed as a difficult sign, it's a case of outsiders not ranking him that highly to begin with.
Joe Jordan thinks differently, and that's fine with me. I believe 100% that he went with Hobgood because he thought he was the best player available, and not because he was an easy sign. If outsiders have a different perception, I don't really care.

Interestingly Callis has since said he believes they (BA) underated Hobgood before the draft.

[WebLink21]

The guy wasn't held in high regard due to the fact as he wasn't as talented as a couple of the other pitchers going after him according to most scouts. Matzek was the most talented pitcher in the draft after Strasburg and that is why he wants the most money.

If anything this shows that MacPhail is more concerned about signablility than having the most talent, and that is not a good thing. I think he's annoyed because suddenly people are calling him on his frugality and they should given the resources this club has at its disposal.

At worst had we not signed our pick, we would have had the 6th pick in the draft next year. We didn't have to draft a signability pick.

:deadhorse:

[Florida_Osfan]

There's your evidence. MacPhail doesn't want to have to recruit the player to play for the Orioles. Well I'm sorry, but the Orioles especially in the AL East may have to do some actual recruiting to get top talent here. That is MacPhail's job. The Orioles can't sell themselves, even to a HS kid.

There's a reason you have to beg. It's called the player has talent and wants to be compensated for it and would rather get a college education than possibly be stuck on a losing franchise.

Signable does not necessarily = BPA. The Orioles needed to take the BPA and the jury is certainly out if Hobgood was that...

Dude, this isn't evidence. Seriously, it isn't even in the realm of evidence. You're inferring way beyond provable reason. Hobgood is top talent. And MacPhail isn't being literal about "begging" players to come, he's simply making a point that many HS pitchers, like Matzek, were reported to be exaggerated in their demands. Who wants that mess? Why risk passing on one first round talent to get a guy another guy who is more interested in getting the mega-deal than joining a franchise? I think you twisted his words to suit your point. And that's the fallacy, not the evidence.

Oh, and why is the jury out on Hobgood but not on Matzek? Isn't that a double-standard?

If you're unwilling to believe that a guy projected to be taken mid-first round is just as talented as good as any guy in the top 5, then see the drafting history of teams like the Red Sox. When is the last time they drafted in the top 10? Yet they draft and develop good players. Hobgood has the skill set and makeup to be a TOR starter. Whether he's taken 5, 15, or 25 does not define his future. You, like many, are obsessed with the expert's take rather than the expert opinion of JJ. That's bias.

And you're not addressing your other biases, either. You're slanted toward the O's as villain. That seems to be the motif of your posts, and it's part of the reason you are so frequently challenged--not because you have "different" opinions.

[Flip217]

Jeebus, JTrea, you sound more like OldFan every time I read one of your posts. It's almost time for an intervention.

[J.D.]

There's your evidence. MacPhail doesn't want to have to recruit the player to play for the Orioles. Well I'm sorry, but the Orioles especially in the AL East may have to do some actual recruiting to get top talent here. That is MacPhail's job. The Orioles can't sell themselves, even to a HS kid.

There's a reason you have to beg. It's called the player has talent and wants to be compensated for it and would rather get a college education than possibly be stuck on a losing franchise.

Signable does not necessarily = BPA. The Orioles needed to take the BPA and the jury is certainly out if Hobgood was that...

Clearly, that jury isn't out for you. You've already made up your mind that Hobgood wasn't in the ballpark of being the best player available, and somehow us choosing him meant that we "can't sell ourselves to a high-school kid," or that we're somehow too lazy to recruit.

I'm sure other people will have much nicer ways to point out how ridiculous you're being right now, so I'll leave it up to them. It's absolutely repugnant that you look for anything and everything to attack and harp on. When you have an agenda, there's no use or point even having a debate or discussion to the contrary any longer.

[Jimbo81]

Jeebus, JTrea, you sound more like OldFan every time I read one of your posts. It's almost time for an intervention.

That is why I have them both on Ignore.:scratchchinhmm:

After actually doing my own reseach on Hobgood I think it was a good pick. He is a great character guy with just about as much upside as the rest of the prep arms.

BTW, Matzek interview during the draft turned me off on him and, Grant Green just didn't seem worth it to me.

[tywright]

Dan Connolly wrote this last year (http://proathletesonly.com/news/locker-room/orioles-not-afraid-to-spend-big-money-on-draft-picks/)


This year [2008], the Orioles signed 36 of 50 draft picks (and five nondrafted free agents) for a total of $6.9 million in bonuses, the 10th-highest in the majors. They would have been in the top seven had they signed a couple of high school pitchers - including Gaithersburg High’s Kevin Brady - who decided at last week’s deadline to attend college.

Last year[2007], the Orioles’ $7.7 million in signing bonuses was the most spent in the league. According to Baseball America, in the previous four years, the Orioles didn’t crack the top 10 and were last in 2004.

I look forward to a 3rd consecutive year we are in the top 10 in signing bonuses, especially when they sign Harris, Berry, Hoppy, and Coffey.

[QBsILLEST1]

Clearly, that jury isn't out for you. You've already made up your mind that Hobgood wasn't in the ballpark of being the best player available, and somehow us choosing him meant that we "can't sell ourselves to a high-school kid," or that we're somehow too lazy to recruit.

I'm sure other people will have much nicer ways to point out how ridiculous you're being right now, so I'll leave it up to them. It's absolutely repugnant that you look for anything and everything to attack and harp on. When you have an agenda, there's no use or point even having a debate or discussion to the contrary any longer.

Trea, whats your profession? Whatever it is that you do, wouldnt you hate it if someone with absolutely no knowledge of your job comes up to you one day and tries to tell you how to do your job? This is what you do, on a near daily basis here.

So aside from BA's rankings, what is your evidence that he wasnt the BPA? What is it that lags so far behind Matzek, Miller, Purke, Turner and Wheeler? I really want to know your answer to this.....

[JTrea81]

See the thing with Hobgood is that it's fine if Jordan thought he was the BPA, that's his call. But it's the fact that MacPhail has such a negative attitude toward paying for premium talent that gets to me. And you've got to think when counseled in case of a tie of course he will tell Jordan to go with the more signable pick despite the difference in talent, just like he'll tell him to go pitcher instead of position player if there is a tie.

It's those biases that MacPhail has that are hurting this team IMO. We can't afford to have biases toward cheap players because in this division premium talent wins, and cheap while it can be good doesn't neccessarily mean best.

Typically you pay more for the better players, that is why their price tags are what they are. Boras doesn't try to represent inferior talent. And while Matzek isn't a Boras client, he still was the only HS pitcher to have four quality pitches which made him the cream of the HS crop according to many.

Until MacPhail actually acquires some premium talent other than a trade (besides Wieters as he didn't draft him) I will question his frugality because he has done nothing to indicate he's willing to go "all in" for premium talent.

[Frobby]

It really annoys me. It's really, really repugnant that the guy who you have to beg to come play is somehow held in higher regard.


There's your evidence. MacPhail doesn't want to have to recruit the player to play for the Orioles. Well I'm sorry, but the Orioles especially in the AL East may have to do some actual recruiting to get top talent here. That is MacPhail's job. The Orioles can't sell themselves, even to a HS kid.

There's a reason you have to beg. It's called the player has talent and wants to be compensated for it and would rather get a college education than possibly be stuck on a losing franchise.

Signable does not necessarily = BPA. The Orioles needed to take the BPA and the jury is certainly out if Hobgood was that...

So by your logic, if 10 other guys think that a girl is the prettiest girl in the school, and she's making clear she's going to play hard to get, and you happen to think that some other girl is better looking, you should ask the first girl out.

(Disclaimer: No I am not saying that you decide who to ask out based solely on her looks; I'm just trying to keep my analogy simple.)

[Burg]

So by your logic, if 10 other guys think that a girl is the prettiest girl in the school, and she's making clear she's going to play hard to get, and you happen to think that some other girl is better looking, you should ask the first girl out.

(Disclaimer: No I am not saying that you decide who to ask out based solely on her looks; I'm just trying to keep my analogy simple.)

Why bother?

Trea makes up his mind (almost always that the O's front office is the bad guy) and then either ignores all evidence to the contrary or misrepresents the evidence to the contrary in order to support the opinion he's always had.

At this point, the only difference between Trea and OldFan is number of posts.

[Florida_Osfan]

It's those biases that MacPhail has that are hurting this team IMO. We can't afford to have biases toward cheap players because in this division premium talent wins, and cheap while it can be good doesn't neccessarily mean best.

Typically you pay more for the better players, that is why their price tags are what they are. Boras doesn't try to represent inferior talent. And while Matzek isn't a Boras client, he still was the only HS pitcher to have four quality pitches which made him the cream of the HS crop according to many.

Until MacPhail actually acquires some premium talent other than a trade (besides Wieters as he didn't draft him) I will question his frugality because he has done nothing to indicate he's willing to go "all in" for premium talent.

I think it is more of your biases hurting your point of view.

Matusz isn't premium talent? Hadn't heard that one before. And your idea of premium is the one FA (shall go nameless) you're using as a beacon for MacPhail's philosophy.

He signed BRob and Markakis to extensions, netted us a huge trade, and drafted the likes of Matusz (Matzek only with more experience and projectionable talent), yet that isn't adding premium talent?

That's why people bash your posts.

[J.D.]

See the thing with Hobgood is that it's fine if Jordan thought he was the BPA, that's his call. But it's the fact that MacPhail has such a negative attitude toward paying for premium talent that gets to me. And you've got to think when counseled in case of a tie of course he will tell Jordan to go with the more signable pick despite the difference in talent, just like he'll tell him to go pitcher instead of position player if there is a tie.

It's those biases that MacPhail has that are hurting this team IMO. We can't afford to have biases toward cheap players because in this division premium talent wins, and cheap while it can be good doesn't neccessarily mean best.

Typically you pay more for the better players, that is why their price tags are what they are. Boras doesn't try to represent inferior talent. And while Matzek isn't a Boras client, he still was the only HS pitcher to have four quality pitches which made him the cream of the HS crop according to many.


What on earth are you even talking about? He's irritated because he absolutely thinks that Hobgood was the best player available, probably because Jordan thinks he was the best player available, but people are running with the perception that it was just a signability pick. That's all that comment was. It sounds like he just got tired of hearing "Oh, you guys just picked Hobgood because he would sign, not because he was the best talent," and wanted to set the record straight.

You think Matzek's a better pitcher then fine. Whatever. The FO thinks that Hobgood was the better pitcher, and it's certainly a plus BUT NOT THE DETERMINING FACTOR that Hobgood wants to play here and will sign. He's basically saying, "Just because a kid's going to be a tough sign doesn't make him the best player."

[JTrea81]

So by your logic, if 10 other guys think that a girl is the prettiest girl in the school, and she's making clear she's going to play hard to get, and you happen to think that some other girl is better looking, you should ask the first girl out.

(Disclaimer: No I am not saying that you decide who to ask out based solely on her looks; I'm just trying to keep my analogy simple.)

As I said that was Jordan's call. But the publications don't think Matzek was better because he was more expensive, it's because they though he had more talent. And because he is percieved to have more talent, that's why he wants more money and is "hard to get."

Again I hate bringing it up but Teixeira was "hard to get" too and MacPhail sure didn't try to fight for him now did he? MacPhail has a bias against expensive premium talent. He'd rather sign three lesser players than spend the money for one premium guy, to spread out the risk.

I think what happened to Mark Prior has soured him on spending money for premium talent in the draft and for talent in general. He'll make exceptions, but he won't go "all in" for guys.

[dan-O]

What on earth are you even talking about? He's irritated because he absolutely thinks that Hobgood was the best player available, probably because Jordan thinks he was the best player available, but people are running with the perception that it was just a signability pick. That's all that comment was. It sounds like he just got tired of hearing "Oh, you guys just picked Hobgood because he would sign, not because he was the best talent," and wanted to set the record straight.

You think Matzek's a better pitcher then fine. Whatever. The FO thinks that Hobgood was the better pitcher, and it's certainly a plus BUT NOT THE DETERMINING FACTOR that Hobgood wants to play here and will sign. He's basically saying, "Just because a kid's going to be a tough sign doesn't make him the best player."

Couldn't agree more. Jtrea you are misinterpreting MacPhail's quote.

[Burg]

As I said that was Jordan's call. But the publications don't think Matzek was better because he was more expensive, it's because they though he had more talent. And because he is percieved to have more talent, that's why he wants more money and is "hard to get."

Again I hate bringing it up but Teixeira was "hard to get" too and MacPhail sure didn't try to fight for him now did he? MacPhail has a bias against expensive premium talent. He'd rather sign three lesser players than spend the money for one premium guy, to spread out the risk.

No you don't. You love to bring it up. It drives 99% of your anti-FO posts.

Once again, a poster named SEVERAL expensive premium talent players that AM signed. Once again, you ignored a post that directly refuted your opinion.

[wickedwitch]

Markakis was a very easy sign. He took below-slot money. That's turned out pretty well.

[JTrea81]

No you don't. You love to bring it up. It drives 99% of your anti-FO posts.

Once again, a poster named SEVERAL expensive premium talent players that AM signed. Once again, you ignored a post that directly refuted your opinion.

Please point this out to me, I must have missed it.

[dan-O]

As I said that was Jordan's call. But the publications don't think Matzek was better because he was more expensive, it's because they though he had more talent. And because he is percieved to have more talent, that's why he wants more money and is "hard to get."

Again I hate bringing it up but Teixeira was "hard to get" too and MacPhail sure didn't try to fight for him now did he? MacPhail has a bias against expensive premium talent. He'd rather sign three lesser players than spend the money for one premium guy, to spread out the risk.

Tex was never coming here. How that isn't blatantly obvious to you I'll never understand. MacPhail spent over $100 million on premium talent that was already here. And he'll spend more when we're closer to contending. Where the hell would this organization be right now without MacPhail? The progress that's been made as a whole within the entire organization in less than 3 years is nothing less than stunning, IMO. The good MacPhail has brought so insanely outweighs the bad that it's almost worthless discussing something like his comments on Matt Hobgood. Who cares? Joe Jordan felt he was the best available talent and clearly felt the kid has good character, which has been an recent requirement (and how refreshing that is) for new Orioles. MacPhail is just backing up Jordan.

How is it not obvious what MacPhail has done for the Orioles? From scouting and development, to getting our young guys locked up, to prolific trades and bringing in young talent, to improving international presence, to promotion and PR, to - FINALLY - creating some kind of unified Oriole philosophy... I mean, you can say I have a man crush all you want, and I'll agree 100 times over. The man has saved the franchise without a question of a doubt, in my mind.

[csgordos]

I am starting to think that JTrea should become a paid Hangout staff member. Who on this board creates more controversy causing more pages, posts and advertisement to be created? Maybe Tony has figured out a way to make the OH last even longer and be more profitable (JTrea).:D Otherwise I cannot explain or anybody else for that matter can explain what seems to be pretty obvious to the rest of us.

I personally want people who want to be Orioles. I run my own business and don't mind paying for premium talent but if I have to pay more and work my hardest to convince people that I am the right place then I don't want them. Because I have learned over time those people leave the first chance they get, and I never get their best effort because they are only motivated by money. I want people who seek me out to work for me. I guess I am different.:noidea:

[JTrea81]

Tex was never coming here. How that isn't blatantly obvious to you I'll never understand. MacPhail spent over $100 million on premium talent that was already here. And he'll spend more when we're closer to contending. Where the hell would this organization be right now without MacPhail? The progress that's been made as a whole within the entire organization in less than 3 years is nothing less than stunning, IMO. The good MacPhail has brought so insanely outweighs the bad that it's almost worthless discussing something like his comments on Matt Hobgood. Who cares? Joe Jordan felt he was the best available talent and clearly felt the kid has good character, which has been an recent requirement (and how refreshing that is) for new Orioles. MacPhail is just backing up Jordan.

How is it not obvious what MacPhail has done for the Orioles? From scouting and development, to getting our young guys locked up, to prolific trades and bringing in young talent, to improving international presence, to promotion and PR, to - FINALLY - creating some kind of unified Oriole philosophy... I mean, you can say I have a man crush all you want, and I'll agree 100 times over. The man has saved the franchise without a question of a doubt, in my mind.

Markakis was a bargain IMO, and Roberts was probably market value. Both took discounts IMO to stay, Markakis especially. And both players wanted to stay in some fashion, MacPhail didn't have to try to recruit them as they were already here.

MacPhail is not a good recruiter of talent. He won't go the extra mile to get premium talent to sign. He never has.

I agree he's done a lot for the Orioles, but he's also a competent GM. After the years of incompetence, we finally have an average GM and everybody is willing to anoint him as savior of the franchise. But the truth is he could be doing more to add talent to this team with the resources we have. He's doing a lot of good, but there is more than can be done. We aren't spending money right now, that is clear. Until we start using our resources to try to get on the same level as the Yankees and Red Sox competitively, I'll always say MacPhail isn't doing enough. The Orioles get MASN revenue and probably close to $30 million more in merchandising and television fees just from MLB and then you've got revenue sharing money on top of that. That's money that can be spent to improve this club that just isn't.

MacPhail has a lot of convincing left to do IMO before I'm willing to annoint him the savior like so many have. There's still a lot in his plan that could go wrong and more that he could be doing to get us to where we need to be quicker. Just because he has a plan won't make it a successful one.

[J.D.]

Markakis was a bargain IMO, and Roberts was probably market value. Both took discounts IMO to stay, Markakis especially. And both players wanted to stay in some fashion, MacPhail didn't have to try to recruit them as they were already here.

MacPhail is not a good recruiter of talent. He won't go the extra mile to get premium talent to sign. He never has.

I agree he's done a lot for the Orioles, but he's also a competent GM. After the years of incompetence, we finally have an average GM and everybody is willing to anoint him as savior of the franchise. But the truth is he could be doing more to add talent to this team with the resources we have. He's doing a lot of good, but there is more than can be done. We aren't spending money right now, that is clear. Until we start using our resources to try to get on the same level as the Yankees and Red Sox competitively, I'll always say MacPhail isn't doing enough. The Orioles get MASN revenue and probably close to $30 million more in merchandising and television fees just from MLB and then you've got revenue sharing money on top of that. That's money that can be spent to improve this club that just isn't.

MacPhail has a lot of convincing left to do IMO before I'm willing to annoint him the savior like so many have. There's still a lot in his plan that could go wrong and more that he could be doing to get us to where we need to be quicker.

You have no idea how much that money is, whether it really exists (or just, you know, off-sets the losses that the team probably makes in attendance), or how they're using it. Don't let that get in the way of throwing out random numbers you have no way of verifying but firmly believe in them as facts, though.

[BringBackMagic]

You have no idea how much that money is, whether it really exists (or just, you know, off-sets the losses that the team probably makes in attendance), or how they're using it. Don't let that get in the way of throwing out random numbers you have no way of verifying but firmly believe in them as facts, though.

Stop trying JD.
JTrea is a man of principle. He will never allow things like facts to get in the way of his opinions.

[ChaosLex]

The guy wasn't held in high regard due to the fact as he wasn't as talented as a couple of the other pitchers going after him according to most scouts. Matzek was the most talented pitcher in the draft after Strasburg and that is why he wants the most money.

If anything this shows that MacPhail is more concerned about signablility than having the most talent, and that is not a good thing. I think he's annoyed because suddenly people are calling him on his frugality and they should given the resources this club has at its disposal.

At worst had we not signed our pick, we would have had the 6th pick in the draft next year. We didn't have to draft a signability pick.

To be fair, Hobgood started losing weight prior to the draft and his stock skyrocketed. I doubt the O's were the only team with this kid on their mind.

[JTrea81]

You have no idea how much that money is, whether it really exists (or just, you know, off-sets the losses that the team probably makes in attendance), or how they're using it. Don't let that get in the way of throwing out random numbers you have no way of verifying but firmly believe in them as facts, though.

I refer you to this article from 2006:

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/102354


Last year, the D’Rays received $33M, more than their payroll of $26.6M. They also received $34.5M from national TV, cable and radio and the sale of MLB merchandise. This season, the D’Rays began with a $35.4M payroll. In contrast, the Marlins cut payroll this year to $15.9M, from $56.3M, after receiving $32M in revenue sharing last year. Marlins Owner Jeffrey Loria said, “I don’t want to talk about revenue sharing other than saying we want to be revenue-sharing contributors, not receivers.”

Now if those were 2005 #'s, you can pretty much guess the Orioles are recieving at least $30 million in those TV, cable, radio and merchandising rights, because all of those profits are split equally. And then the Orioles also get revenue sharing money on top of that. Probably in the $25-30 milion mark based on what their payroll is now compared to the Marlins of 2005. And I highly doubt those #'s went down even with the economic struggles.

So there is $55-60 million just from MLB alone not including the MASN profits, almost enough to fund the Orioles payroll. Now factor in the gate reciepts along with MASN, and the Orioles have plenty of money to spend that is not being spent.

[Frobby]

As I said that was Jordan's call. But the publications don't think Matzek was better because he was more expensive, it's because they though he had more talent. And because he is percieved to have more talent, that's why he wants more money and is "hard to get."

Again I hate bringing it up but Teixeira was "hard to get" too and MacPhail sure didn't try to fight for him now did he? MacPhail has a bias against expensive premium talent. He'd rather sign three lesser players than spend the money for one premium guy, to spread out the risk.

I think what happened to Mark Prior has soured him on spending money for premium talent in the draft and for talent in general. He'll make exceptions, but he won't go "all in" for guys.

We need to separate out the issue of (1) why we selected Hobgood, and (2) MacPhail's philosophy in general. To the extent you are saying that MacPhail is somewhat risk-averse when it comes to spending top money for permium talent, I might agree with you. But I think that's got nothing to do with why the O's selected Matt Hobgood. They picked him because they liked him best. And I don't think that there is blindingly obvious evidence that Matzek is better, even if some other scouts think he is.

Personally, I think the time to debate the Hobgood pick is over. Hopefully he signs Thursday or Friday, and is in a Bluefield or Aberdeen uniform this time next week, getting his arm ready to pitch. And hopefully he gets results that make us feel that Joe Jordan knew what he was doing.

[J.D.]

I refer you to this article from 2006:

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/102354



Now if those were 2005 #'s, you can pretty much guess the Orioles are recieving at least $30 million in those TV, cable, radio and merchandising rights, because all of those profits are split equally. And then the Orioles also get revenue sharing money on top of that. Probably in the $25-30 milion mark based on what their payroll is now compared to the Marlins of 2005. And I highly doubt those #'s went down even with the economic struggles.

So there is $55-60 million just from MLB alone not including the MASN profits, almost enough to fund the Orioles payroll. Now factor in the gate reciepts along with MASN, and the Orioles have plenty of money to spend that is not being spent.


Anything written in 2006, during a strong climb in the economy, can NOT be used to discuss anything pertinent to 2009, after a swift and steep recession. At least not RATIONALLY. That's not even factoring in the fact that you're talking about the Rays and Marlins to make your point about the Orioles.

This is a pointless argument, though. You're going to ignore it and move forward with finding anything and everything to attack the front office with, and nothing that any sane or rational human being attempts to convey to you is going to have the slightest bit of impact.

[JTrea81]

To the extent you are saying that MacPhail is somewhat risk-averse when it comes to spending top money for permium talent, I might agree with you.

This is my point, and it's that sentence I pointed out that really brings it out for me. I think MacPhail isn't just annoyed about the Hobgood pick, but what it represents, as the Orioles took a more signable pick to avoid spending the premium money and the negotiations which could net them a better player, but also would present a risk because of the money tied up in that one player.

It's that frugality based on his risk adverse nature that is annoying when frugality will not net you premium talent most of the time.

[J.D.]

This is my point, and it's that sentence I pointed out that really brings it out for me. I think MacPhail isn't just annoyed about the Hobgood pick, but what it represents, as the Orioles took a more signable pick to avoid spending the premium money and the negotiations which could net them a better player, but also would present a risk because of the money tied up in that one player.

It's that frugality based on his risk adverse nature that is annoying when frugality will not net you premium talent most of the time.

So, you're saying that Hobgood isn't premium talent. Is that what you're getting at? Because it's pretty clear that Jordan disagrees, and some of the things written by scouts AFTER THE DRAFT would disagree with that assessment.

[Frobby]

This is my point, and it's that sentence I pointed out that really brings it out for me. I think MacPhail isn't just annoyed about the Hobgood pick, but what it represents, as the Orioles took a more signable pick to avoid spending the premium money and the negotiations which could net them a better player, but also would present a risk because of the money tied up in that one player.

It's that frugality based on his risk adverse nature that is annoying when frugality will not net you premium talent most of the time.

Well, I am not so sure about that. There is always a tradeoff of risk vs. reward, and different personalities will judge that differently.

Let's say you think the chance that Hobgood will turn out to be an ace is 20%, while you think that the chance that Matzek will turn out to be an ace is 25%. Does that justify spending $4 mm for Matzek when Hobgood would only cost $2.5 mm? (I am not saying this is how the O's saw it, I am merely posing a hypothetical question.)

[JTrea81]

Well, I am not so sure about that. There is always a tradeoff of risk vs. reward, and different personalities will judge that differently.

Let's say you think the chance that Hobgood will turn out to be an ace is 20%, while you think that the chance that Matzek will turn out to be an ace is 25%. Does that justify spending $4 mm for Matzek when Hobgood would only cost $2.5 mm? (I am not saying this is how the O's saw it, I am merely posing a hypothetical question.)

Yes because the Orioles have that $4 million to burn. Jordan in essence should be given an unlimited budget in the draft because that is our best pipeline of talent into the system. FAs don't want to play in Baltimore in general and we don't seem to be committing our money in the international arena, though that could change. We need the best talent we can get into the system to compete with our AL East rivals (who are more than willing to spend on the draft) and the draft is the best way for this team to acquire it.

[Lucky Jim]

This is my point, and it's that sentence I pointed out that really brings it out for me. I think MacPhail isn't just annoyed about the Hobgood pick, but what it represents, as the Orioles took a more signable pick to avoid spending the premium money and the negotiations which could net them a better player, but also would present a risk because of the money tied up in that one player.

It's that frugality based on his risk adverse nature that is annoying when frugality will not net you premium talent most of the time.

What do you think the value is of the difference between Matzek and Hobgood? And what first-hand information do you base that valuation on?

If you can't answer both of those questions, you're not positioned to determine whether the Orioles were being frugal or instead properly valuing the risk-reward of the top HS arms.

[QBsILLEST1]

What do you think the value is of the difference between Matzek and Hobgood? And what first-hand information do you base that valuation on?

If you can't answer both of those questions, you're not positioned to determine whether the Orioles were being frugal or instead properly valuing the risk-reward of the top HS arms.

This was my question. What is your evidence? And of course wasnt answered because hye doesnt have an answer, what he does have is enough time to go search google and gather enough info to put together a halfhearted argument. Im interested to see what he says though....

To me, Matzek has no more of a chance at being an ace than Hobgood or Miller or Turner etc. The biggest difference between all of them is that it seems that Matzek had the highest floor, he was the safest HS pick, though not necessarily the highest ceiling.

[TGO]

Let's not go to this thread. It is a silly place.

[Pruke]

I tend to think most publications / news outlets rely on the information provided to them by scouts / front office people in the know. In other words, if they are hearing names mentioned repeatedly, they can share that info. My understanding is that Hobgood was a late riser and likely was not being considered in the same light that Joe Jordan's team may have see him in. In Jordan we trust...

[Orioles West]

Ultimately, I think the O's may have another shot Matzek.

I know Oriole fans think the current regime in Baltimore acts a bit too frugal for some tastes the last few years, but the Rockies love to cut corners far more often.

I think Colorado took Matzek because they know they can't afford him. Sounds crazy, but they aren't within a mile (high) of signing him and they knew the kid's demands going in. If the Rox do sign him, I will be surprised.

That aside, I like the idea of a talented pitcher who wants to play for Baltimore, regardless of where he falls in the draft.




-Don

[Lucky Jim]

Yes because the Orioles have that $4 million to burn. Jordan in essence should be given an unlimited budget in the draft because that is our best pipeline of talent into the system. FAs don't want to play in Baltimore in general and we don't seem to be committing our money in the international arena, though that could change. We need the best talent we can get into the system to compete with our AL East rivals (who are more than willing to spend on the draft) and the draft is the best way for this team to acquire it.

Even if they did have $4m to burn, what if they could invest somewhere where the return was better than the marginal difference between prospects? Wouldn't that be a better way to spend the money?

Honestly, this post should disqualify you from opining anywhere but the Rant section. Because you're self-admittedly divorced from reason.

[Lucky Jim]

Well, I am not so sure about that. There is always a tradeoff of risk vs. reward, and different personalities will judge that differently.

Let's say you think the chance that Hobgood will turn out to be an ace is 20%, while you think that the chance that Matzek will turn out to be an ace is 25%. Does that justify spending $4 mm for Matzek when Hobgood would only cost $2.5 mm? (I am not saying this is how the O's saw it, I am merely posing a hypothetical question.)

Yeah. My point, too - though I didn't see this before I made it.

[Hooded Viper]

I think Trea is Brummie_Oriole from Roch's blog. I mean for the love of God, LET IT GO!

[Khaezh12]

I think Trea is Brummie_Oriole from Roch's blog. I mean for the love of God, LET IT GO!

...And Jack

[obannon35]

There's your evidence. MacPhail doesn't want to have to recruit the player to play for the Orioles. Well I'm sorry, but the Orioles especially in the AL East may have to do some actual recruiting to get top talent here. That is MacPhail's job. The Orioles can't sell themselves, even to a HS kid.

There's a reason you have to beg. It's called the player has talent and wants to be compensated for it and would rather get a college education than possibly be stuck on a losing franchise.

Signable does not necessarily = BPA. The Orioles needed to take the BPA and the jury is certainly out if Hobgood was that...

Are you an O's fan?? Everytime I read something you post you're disagreeing with what they're doing....but thing is, the organization is making great strides. So who's right??

[Moose Milligan]

The guy wasn't held in high regard due to the fact as he wasn't as talented as a couple of the other pitchers going after him according to most scouts. Matzek was the most talented pitcher in the draft after Strasburg and that is why he wants the most money.

If anything this shows that MacPhail is more concerned about signablility than having the most talent, and that is not a good thing. I think he's annoyed because suddenly people are calling him on his frugality and they should given the resources this club has at its disposal.

At worst had we not signed our pick, we would have had the 6th pick in the draft next year. We didn't have to draft a signability pick.

Someone call the whambulance. Seriously.

[QBsILLEST1]

Are you an O's fan?? Everytime I read something you post you're disagreeing with what they're doing....but thing is, the organization is making great strides. So who's right??

No hes not an O's fan, he cant be. A fan of the O's doesnt act and say what he does. Even when things werent going good here, though I didnt agree with the franchise's thoughts and direction, I was still a fan, Trea isnt what I consider a fan......Apparently 11 years of losing makes some people fiend for more losing and negativity so they have something to gripe about.

[Shopay]

The more of Trea's posts that I read, the more I become convinced that he is a parody poster that gets his kicks out of "stirring the pot."

[PaulBako]

It's a message board. Some people say whatever they want and want to see the reactions. :D

[ChaosLex]

Someone call the whambulance. Seriously.

http://rowlandwells.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=2907&g2_serialNumber=1

[Hank Scorpio]

:laughlol:

I kinda knew this would incite a riot.

Apologies, all... but it did sound to me like MacPhail was talking directly to our lil buddy in that article.

[SrMeowMeow]

I think it is legitimate to think of Hobgood as a signability pick, or at least to wonder about it. I'm willing to accept that maybe Jordan found a total steal, and I'm not in any way upset about the pick. But when you take a player that's completely off the radar, it seems silly to find it "repugnant" that people are trying on different reasons for why you made that pick.

I think this is just a spirited defense of the organization and Jordan. A PR move to silence some critics and nothing more. But there's nothing wrong with that and I have no more problem with the pick now than I did before (meaning none).

[Moose Milligan]

The more of Trea's posts that I read, the more I become convinced that he is a parody poster that gets his kicks out of "stirring the pot."

+1.

Weaver.

[McNulty]

:laughlol:

I kinda knew this would incite a riot.

Apologies, all... but it did sound to me like MacPhail was talking directly to our lil buddy in that article.

I really wish you would quit calling him our lil buddy, like he's some lovable crazy character. He's an embarrassment to the board. Hobgood's family reads the board, and he just continues to go on and on.

I know you like to think that everyone's opinion is valid, and I would as well, but clearly that's just not the case.

[Hank Scorpio]

I stopped getting mad at his posts around December 18th, and just started giggling at them.

[Frobby]

Hobgood's family reads the board, and he just continues to go on and on.

How do you know they read the board? Did someone post here?

[Hank Scorpio]

How do you know they read the board? Did someone post here?

Yeah, uh... Matt's Uncle & Mom, apparently.

[Hank Scorpio]

Still no confirmation that Milligan's Mom posts here, but McNutts would know.

;)

[Hank Scorpio]

Frob :

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1796506&postcount=274

[McNulty]

Still no confirmation that Milligan's Mom posts here, but McNutts would know.

;)

Come on dude, when does she ever have a free hand?

[ChaosLex]

Come on dude, when does she ever have a free hand?

http://xc5.xanga.com/43a1212770c3575803788/t6731027.gif

Giggity giggity goo!

[JTrea81]

I really wish you would quit calling him our lil buddy, like he's some lovable crazy character. He's an embarrassment to the board. Hobgood's family reads the board, and he just continues to go on and on.

I know you like to think that everyone's opinion is valid, and I would as well, but clearly that's just not the case.

I don't call you an embarrassment to the board just because your opinion doesn't agree with mine. I respect your opinion of MacPhail because you are entitled to it. Just because I don't think Hobgood was as talented as some of the other pitchers doesn't mean I am slandering him. Is it wrong to say Albert Pujols is more talented than Aubrey Huff? Should I worry that Huff's wife will get offended if I say that?

I think the kid has a great head on his shoulders and will be a good player to add to this organization. Could the Orioles have gotten a more talented player? The publications and myself think they could have but chose to go for a more signable player.

Keep in mind as far as Matzek goes, I'm sure if you were in his shoes, you'd hold out for money too. This is the kid's chance to make some real money and he could be only one pitch from losing his entire career. That's a heck of a gamble to risk losing say 4 million over to sign and the worst thing that happens to him is that he gets a free ride to college. I don't blame him one bit for his stance.

I'm happy for Hobgood and I wish him the best in his baseball career and I hope he can eventually be a starter for the Orioles just like I would any Orioles player. As long as he gives 100% I'll be behind him 100%.

[McNulty]

OK Sly, I guess its just the rest of us who are wrong about you and your ridiculous views.

I'm not going to respond further because you don't justify it AND I don't want to get my blood pressure any higher than is necessary.

[J.D.]

I don't call you an embarrassment to the board just because your opinion doesn't agree with mine. I respect your opinion of MacPhail because you are entiled to it. Just because I don't think Hobgood was as talented as some of the other pitchers doesn't mean I am slandering him. Is it wrong to say Albert Pujols is more talented than Aubrey Huff?

I think the kid has a great head on his shoulders and will be a good player to add to this organization. Could the Orioles have gotten a more talented player? The publications and myself think they could have but chose to go for a more signable player.

Keep in mind as far as Matzek goes, I'm sure if you were in his shoes, you'd hold out for money too. This is the kid's chance to make some real money and he could be only one pitch from losing his entire career. That's a heck of a gamble to risk losing say 4 million over to sign and the worst thing that happens to him is that he gets a free ride to college. I don't blame him one bit for his stance.

I'm happy for Hobgood and I wish him the best in his baseball career and I hope he can eventually be a starter for the Orioles just like I would any Orioles player. As long as he gives 100% I'll be behind him 100%.

If by that you mean, "myself and some of the pre-draft publications, one of which has admitted that they may have rated Hobgood too low," then sure. You make it seem like there was a firm consensus that he was a mid-range first rounder, when the consensus is that he was rising up the draft boards very quickly late in the process.

You aren't being called an embarrassment to the board because you disagree, by the way. It was more in the persistent nature in which you go on and on about things once you get them stuck in your head, and the fact that there doesn't seem to be a great deal of logic that factors into the things you get stuck in your head in the first place.

[McNulty]

I very clearly remember Mel Kiper and other "draft experts" blasting the Seahawks for drafting Lofa Tatupu "way too high", and then he made the Pro Bowl.

Repeatedly, Jordan and MacPhail have come out and said that they liked this kid the best, and took him FOR THAT VERY REASON. AM even had to come out today with a post DIRECTED at people like Sly to refute the signability claims and assurtions.

To continue reading into this pick as a "signability" issue takes an extreme bias and lack of rational thought. Its the only way to reach such conclusions.

[Frobby]

How do you know they read the board? Did someone post here?


Yeah, uh... Matt's Uncle & Mom, apparently.


Frob :

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1796506&postcount=274

Thanks! And welcome to the Hobgood family!

[Hank Scorpio]

Thanks! And welcome to the Hobgood family!

Pretty cool, huh?

[JTrea81]

To continue reading into this pick as a "signability" issue takes an extreme bias and lack of rational thought. Its the only way to reach such conclusions.

Please CC me when you e-mail those writers that said Hobgood was drafted as a signablity pick telling them they are extremely biased against Andy MacPhail and they lack rational thought.

I'd like to see their responses to that...

This organization is percieved as cheap, and until MacPhail starts proving otherwise, we will continue to be percieved in that way. We are not spending as much as we can to improve our baseball team. And maybe we don't have to, but why conserve resources when you have them to spend? Conserving resources when the draft and international signings are concerned when smaller market teams like Oakland and Tampa Bay spend more than you do consistantly, just doesn't make sense seeing as you aren't spending it on FAs which they can't afford to do.

And don't even get me started on the ST situation. Seriously, how many major league teams do you know have a tent outdoors setup as the weight room?

It wasn't just the Hobgood pick that is seen as "cheap". It was the fact Jordan passed over Max Stassi only to get an another catcher not rated as high in the first round. It's that he passed over Ian Krol, both of which who were drafted by Oakland and are considered signable. All of this leans toward Jordan not having a big enough budget to draft the BPA, and that is simply unnacceptable.

You hear all about Jordan wanting Hobgood, but why did he pass on Stassi and Krol among others?

[Lucky Jim]

The publications and myself think they could have but chose to go for a more signable player.

If you have no first hand knowledge, no scouting ability, and no information outside of the "publications" that "think" the O's could've gotten someone better, than this isn't really accurate.


The publications think (and I choose to blindly follow them) that the Orioles could have but chose to go for a more signable player.

There. I fixed it for you.

[McNulty]

Please CC me when you e-mail those writers that said Hobgood was drafted as a signablity pick telling them they are extremely biased against Andy MacPhail and they lack rational thought.

I'd like to see their responses to that...

This organization is percieved as cheap, and until MacPhail starts proving otherwise, we will continue to be percieved in that way. We are not spending as much as we can to improve our baseball team. And maybe we don't have to, but why conserve resources when you have them to spend? Conserving resources when the draft and international signings are concerned when smaller market teams like Oakland and Tampa Bay spend more than you do consistantly, just doesn't make sense seeing as you aren't spending it on FAs which they can't afford to do.

It wasn't just the Hobgood pick that is seen as "cheap". It was the fact Jordan passed over Max Stassi only to get an another catcher not rated as high in the first round. It's that he passed over Ian Krol, both of which who were drafted by Oakland and are considered signable. All of this leans toward Jordan not having a big enough budget to draft the BPA, and that is simply unnacceptable.

You hear all about Jordan wanting Hobgood, but why did he pass on Stassi and Krol among others?

Krol has a real tight commitment. And maybe he didn't like Stassi.

Once again, do you scout people for a living? Dude, you wouldn't even know Stassi if you ran into him on the street. It only leans towards "not having a big enough budget" if you are biased to that viewpoint and predisposed to seeing things that way already, like you clearly are.

For the last time, Jordan is one of the best in the business. He picked who he wanted, said so while articulating as to why he liked each one of those players.

You can keep leaping to conclusions. You can keep refusing to listen to everyone on this board tell you that you are doing so. However, we'd all prefer it if you would just keep that to yourself BECAUSE ITS RIDICULOUS.

Once again, I go back to my Lofa Tatupu scenario. They liked the player, and took him. GIVE IT A REST.

[J.D.]

Please CC me when you e-mail those writers that said Hobgood was drafted as a signablity pick telling them they are extremely biased against Andy MacPhail and they lack rational thought.

I'd like to see their responses to that...

This organization is percieved as cheap, and until MacPhail starts proving otherwise, we will continue to be percieved in that way. We are not spending as much as we can to improve our baseball team. And maybe we don't have to, but why conserve resources when you have them to spend? Conserving resources when the draft and international signings are concerned when smaller market teams like Oakland and Tampa Bay spend more than you do consistantly, just doesn't make sense seeing as you aren't spending it on FAs which they can't afford to do.

And don't even get me started on the ST situation. Seriously, how many major league teams do you know have a tent outdoors setup as the weight room?

It wasn't just the Hobgood pick that is seen as "cheap". It was the fact Jordan passed over Max Stassi only to get an another catcher not rated as high in the first round. It's that he passed over Ian Krol, both of which who were drafted by Oakland and are considered signable. All of this leans toward Jordan not having a big enough budget to draft the BPA, and that is simply unnacceptable.

You hear all about Jordan wanting Hobgood, but why did he pass on Stassi and Krol among others?

Who's we? Did you fracture off split personalities?

If you're not upset about the Hobgood pick, then do me a favor. STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT IT!!! All we were talking about here is Hobgood. If you have an issue with the other guys, I'm sure there are plenty of other threads around to do it in.

Again, like everything else in the draft, you don't know what kind of scouting the O's got on Stassi and Krol. Maybe there was something there that they didn't like. Maybe they had other guys rated higher. I know, heaven forbid, they didn't follow the JTrea draft board, but I HEAR that these guys are pretty good.

This organization is perceived as being cheap by YOU. And YOU didn't perceive them as cheap until they missed on Teixeira. Before that, you found other, different reasons to bash the front office.

I still find it hilarious that, even BEFORE everyone gets signed, you're dead certain that Oakland and Tampa spent more than us on the draft, AND that somehow that means that they drafted better. That's a joke.

[BaltimoreFan]

JTrea just thinks that to win, you have to have the best players. Because we're not Boston/New York and can't binge every single offseason, our most viable route to contention is through building the minors. Instead of bringing in the "singable" guys, according to JTrea, we should be going all-out with our bonuses in the draft and international signing as it is a cheap way to build a strong core.

From there, we can spend within our limits on free agent acquisitions; ponying up when needed for guys like Tex and holding back when we are mostly set.

That theory is fine, but what he either fails to realize, at least in this specific situation, is that the O's may actually view the cheaper player as the better future pitcher, irrespective of what Baseball America says.

Because JTrea is just a white guy who looks up numbers on a computer, all he has at his disposal is a few tidbits here and there from a handful of writers every few days. Conversely, Joe Jordan and his scouts probably looked at the top five high school pitchers harder and longer than any other crew in baseball and, via their assessment, Hobgood was the best all around package.

Simply having the most electric stuff according to one publication does not make you the best prospect. These high schools pitchers are 18, and are far from finished projects. Intangibles like poise and determination actually do make for better long-term prospects, believe it or not.

[JTrea81]

Who's we? Did you fracture off split personalities?

If you're not upset about the Hobgood pick, then do me a favor. STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT IT!!! All we were talking about here is Hobgood. If you have an issue with the other guys, I'm sure there are plenty of other threads around to do it in.

Again, like everything else in the draft, you don't know what kind of scouting the O's got on Stassi and Krol. Maybe there was something there that they didn't like. Maybe they had other guys rated higher. I know, heaven forbid, they didn't follow the JTrea draft board, but I HEAR that these guys are pretty good.

This organization is perceived as being cheap by YOU. And YOU didn't perceive them as cheap until they missed on Teixeira. Before that, you found other, different reasons to bash the front office.

I still find it hilarious that, even BEFORE everyone gets signed, you're dead certain that Oakland and Tampa spent more than us on the draft, AND that somehow that means that they drafted better. That's a joke.

I was upset by the MacPhail comments, and then was called an "embarassment to the board" when I responded, so of course I am going to defend myself. Keep piling on though even though this isn't your battle.

BTW Oakland drafted Grant Green, Max Stassi and Ian Krol. And Tampa drafted Luke Bailey and Jeff Malm. All those players will likely take well above slot money to sign. I don't see the Orioles spending more than those two clubs when most of the picks we have wil sign for slot or only for slightly above. We'll see though...

[Moose Milligan]

I was upset by the MacPhail comments, and then was called an "embarassment to the board" when I responded, so of course I am going to defend myself. Keep piling on though even though this isn't your battle.

BTW Oakland drafted Grant Green, Max Stassi and Ian Krol. And Tampa drafted Luke Bailey and Jeff Malm. All those players will likely take well above slot money to sign. I don't see the Orioles spending more than those two clubs when most of the picks we have wil sign for slot or only for slightly above. We'll see though...

Trea, please answer.

In a day and age where everyones reigning in spending and trying to stick to a budget (not just in MLB, but along all lines) what is your beef with paying more than slot? Why do you WANT the Orioles to draft guys that are perceived to take more than slot to sign?

[JTrea81]

Trea, please answer.

In a day and age where everyones reigning in spending and trying to stick to a budget (not just in MLB, but along all lines) what is your beef with paying more than slot? Why do you WANT the Orioles to draft guys that are perceived to take more than slot to sign?

Because that is what Tampa Bay and Oakland do. And we have more resources than them. It's what Boston and New York also do.

And all the other teams in the division spend lots of $ in international amateur bonuses.

So if the teams in our division are doing this, and we are trying to beat these teams, shouldn't we be doing the same?

If FAs don't want to come here, we obviously aren't going to be able to spend money on them. So shouldn't we be taking that money and spending more in the draft and international signings than our rivals, or at least equal?

It's great Joe Jordan has a keen eye for talent. But if there is a package of needles in front of you why spend time and money looking for them in a haystack when you can just buy the needles?

[Moose Milligan]

Because that is what Tampa Bay and Oakland do. And we have more resources than them. It's what Boston and New York also do.

And all the other teams in the division spend lots of $ in international amateur bonuses.

So if the teams in our division are doing this, and we are trying to beat these teams, shouldn't we be doing the same?

First of all, get it out of your head right now. We're not the Yankees and we're not the Sox. Never have been, never will be.

Second, show me where Tampa and Oakland routinely pay over slot to sign picks. I'm not looking for an example here or there, I want you to show me where they make a habit out of it on a yearly basis for multiple picks.

[JJLinn29]

I very clearly remember Mel Kiper and other "draft experts" blasting the Seahawks for drafting Lofa Tatupu "way too high", and then he made the Pro Bowl.

Repeatedly, Jordan and MacPhail have come out and said that they liked this kid the best, and took him FOR THAT VERY REASON. AM even had to come out today with a post DIRECTED at people like Sly to refute the signability claims and assurtions.

To continue reading into this pick as a "signability" issue takes an extreme bias and lack of rational thought. Its the only way to reach such conclusions.

Same thing happened in 2008 with Jerod Mayo...was considered a reach, dude was a beast. The Pats did the same with Logan Mankins in 2005. The list goes on and on.

I'm convinced that even if Hobgood was a carbon copy of Strasburg without the hype, this "thing" referred to as JTrea would think he sucks because he A) doesn't have a greedy agent and B) isn't seeking a well above slot bonus.

The videos I've seen of him make it hard to not like the pick. He touches 94-95 and has a nasty hook. He's not all about money though, so I guess he really does suck.

[Frobby]

This organization is percieved as cheap, and until MacPhail starts proving otherwise, we will continue to be percieved in that way.

Honestly, I could care less how you think we are "perceived." The team was in the top 10 in terms of signing bonuses paid each of the last two years, and our farm system is now ranked in the top 10 after several consecutive good drafts. By my count, in 2009-10 the system will have sent 9 good prospects to the majors, at least (Wieters, Reimold, Snyder, Bergesen, Berken, Hernandez, Tillman, Matusz). That's outstanding by any measure.

[Moose Milligan]

Honestly, I could care less how you think we are "perceived." The team was in the top 10 in terms of signing bonuses paid each of the last two years, and our farm system is now ranked in the top 10 after several consecutive good drafts. By my count, in 2009-10 the system will have sent 9 good prospects to the majors, at least (Wieters, Reimold, Snyder, Bergesen, Berken, Hernandez, Tillman, Matusz). That's outstanding by any measure.

Too bad your measure and his aren't the same.

[JTrea81]

Honestly, I could care less how you think we are "perceived." The team was in the top 10 in terms of signing bonuses paid each of the last two years, and our farm system is now ranked in the top 10 after several consecutive good drafts. By my count, in 2009-10 the system will have sent 9 good prospects to the majors, at least (Wieters, Reimold, Snyder, Bergesen, Berken, Hernandez, Tillman, Matusz). That's outstanding by any measure.

But what place are we in our division? How many teams are better than us?

We can't just be outstanding. We have to be unreal if we are going to have all homegrown talent without major premium FA acquisitions.

Premium talent alone will win this division. The Orioles can't get enough into their system, and we certainly can't afford to pass on any in the draft for $ reasons.

And with the graduation of Wieters and Reimold to the majors, our system is no longer top 10.

Anyway, this thread has turned into another "attack JTrea" thread because I said something contrary to the "MacPhail knows all" mantra. Moose I haven't forgotten about your post and I'll elaborate in another thread, but I've got to gather the info all together first and I didn't want this thread to continue down this path...

[Moose Milligan]

But what place are we in our division? How many teams are better than us?

We can't just be outstanding. We have to be unreal if we are going to have all homegrown talent without major premium FA acquisitions.

Premium talent alone will win this division. The Orioles can't get enough into their system, and we certainly can't afford to pass on any in the draft for $ reasons.

And with the graduation of Wieters and Reimold to the majors, our system is no longer top 10.


Ahem...



Second, show me where Tampa and Oakland routinely pay over slot to sign picks. I'm not looking for an example here or there, I want you to show me where they make a habit out of it on a yearly basis for multiple picks.

Still waiting.

Where have Tampa, Oakland and others made a habit out of going over slot to sign picks? Please show me documentation where they do this on a yearly basis for multiple draft picks.

Thanks.

[Frobby]

But what place are we in our division? How many teams are better than us?

We can't just be outstanding. We have to be unreal if we are going to have all homegrown talent without major premium FA acquisitions.

Premium talent alone will win this division. The Orioles can't get enough into their system, and we certainly can't afford to pass on any in the draft for $ reasons.

And with the graduation of Wieters and Reimold to the majors, our system is no longer top 10.

Who knows if we'll be in the top 10 or not? I'd say it depends on how many of the Big 3 are still considered prospects when the year ends.

My point wasn't that we can afford to be cheap. My point is that we have a very good track record the last few years, and if Joe Jordan thinks Matt Hobgood is a better pick than Tyler Matzek or whoever, I really couldn't care less if you think others perceive us as being cheap. In other words, I think Joe Jordan knows vastly more about how to conduct a successful draft than you do, and I think your perception that MacPhail is preventing him from drafting who he wants due to financial reasons is utter hogwash.

[JTrea81]

Who knows if we'll be in the top 10 or not? I'd say it depends on how many of the Big 3 are still considered prospects when the year ends.

My point wasn't that we can afford to be cheap. My point is that we have a very good track record the last few years, and if Joe Jordan thinks Matt Hobgood is a better pick than Tyler Matzek or whoever, I really couldn't care less if you think others perceive us as being cheap. In other words, I think Joe Jordan knows vastly more about how to conduct a successful draft than you do, and I think your perception that MacPhail is preventing him from drafting who he wants due to financial reasons is utter hogwash.

You can't possibly believe that budget doesn't enter into Joe Jordan's draft process at all. MacPhail definitely gives him a budget to work with and that will limit who he can draft. What I am saying is that I would like to see what Jordan could do without financial constraints.

[J.D.]

You can't possibly believe that budget doesn't enter into Joe Jordan's draft process at all. MacPhail definitely gives him a budget to work with and that will limit who he can draft. What I am saying is that I would like to see what Jordan could do without financial constraints.

You can't possibly believe that MacPhail decides how much of Angelos' money he can spend. MacPhail doesn't give anyone a budget. If anything, Angelos tells MacPhail what he can spend.

[JTrea81]

You can't possibly believe that MacPhail decides how much of Angelos' money he can spend. MacPhail doesn't give anyone a budget. If anything, Angelos tells MacPhail what he can spend.

That's exactly what I think. What is MacPhail's job then if he can't dictate how to spend the money budgeted for Baseball Operations?

You seriously think Angelos spends the time to break out the budget into each area of scouting, draft, FA signings? MacPhail is the keeper of Angelos' checkbook.

We didn't spend anything close to what we could in FA signings, so why not allocate more money to the draft and give Jordan a larger budget to work with?

[J.D.]

That's exactly what I think. What is MacPhail's job then if he can't dictate how to spend the money budgeted for Baseball Operations?

You seriously think Angelos spends the time to break out the budget into each area of scouting, draft, FA signings? MacPhail is the keeper of Angelos' checkbook.

We didn't spend anything close to what we could in FA signings, so why not allocate more money to the draft and give Jordan a larger budget to work with?

You know what? Let's just stop here. We're not even on the original topic anymore, you're driving me gradually more insane, and I'm just done arguing about you're persistently inaccurate, overblown, and dogged beliefs and theories on why the front office is terrible and how we're so clearly cheapskates. I'm done with this conversation. I knew it would end up here five hours ago when I jumped into it.

[JTrea81]

You know what? Let's just stop here. We're not even on the original topic anymore, you're driving me gradually more insane, and I'm just done arguing about you're persistently inaccurate, overblown, and dogged beliefs and theories on why the front office is terrible and how we're so clearly cheapskates. I'm done with this conversation. I knew it would end up here five hours ago when I jumped into it.

Ah I see it's easier to rehash what others have said and pile on some more then to have a thoughtful rebuttal. Well done... :rolleyes:

[J.D.]

Ah I see it's easier to rehash what others have said and pile on some more then to have a thoughtful rebuttal. Well done... :rolleyes:

Yeah, imagine that. I happen to agree with what just about everyone in this thread is saying in response to your antics.

And that? Well, that's pretty much as easy as taking a ridiculous stance, digging a trench, and repeating it in every discussion that comes along.

I do promise you, though, that this'll be the last minute I waste replying to one of your posts. Whether you care about that or not doesn't concern me in the least.

[Hank Scorpio]

Ah I see it's easier to rehash what others have said and pile on some more then to have a thoughtful rebuttal. Well done... :rolleyes:

Silly Trea, all you DO is rehash what others have said. :laughlol:

Have you ever seen Good Will Hunting? Here's what I see, here :


Trea: Well, as a matter of fact, I won't, because MacPhail drastically underestimates the impact of social -

McNulty: MacPhail drastically underestimates the impact of a big bat predicated upon wealth, especially Angelos' wealth"? You got that from John Manuel, "Analyzing the 2009 Draft," page 98, right? Yeah, I read that too. Were you gonna plagiarize the whole thing for us? Do you have any thoughts of your own on this matter? Or do you, is that your thing, you come into a bar, read some obscure passage and then pretend - you pawn it off as your own, as your own idea just to impress some girls, embarrass my friend?

Trea: [looks down in shame]

McNulty: See, the sad thing about a guy like you is, in 50 years you're gonna start doin' some thinkin' on your own and you're going to come up with the fact that there are two certainties in life: one, don't do that, and two, you dropped $99 bucks on a Baseball America subcription when you could have actually watched these kids play and formulated some opinions of your own. You know, done some scouting.

[McNulty]

Do you like apples Sly?

[JTrea81]

I didn't realize one had to be a scout on here to have a valid opinion. Unfortunately I have a job and can't afford the time nor the money to fly around the country to look at these kids and I rely on the reports of others who can. That's why they are paid to do what they do.

Could Joe Jordan be right and everybody else be wrong? Yes it's possible, but there's also a possiblity that Jordan could be wrong as well. And that idea is just blasphemy around here.

Look at Smoak/Posey/Beckham vs. Matusz for instance. You now couldn't trade Matusz to get any of those guys straight up.

As I've said before, just because the Orioles do something, doesn't mean that it is right. And people have the right to question them.

[tywright]

I didn't realize one had to be a scout on here to have a valid opinion. Unfortunately I have a job and can't afford the time nor the money to fly around the country to look at these kids and I rely on the reports of others who can. That's why they are paid to do what they do.

Could Joe Jordan be right and everybody else be wrong? Yes it's possible, but there's also a possiblity that Jordan could be wrong as well. And that idea is just blasphemy around here.

Look at Smoak/Posey/Beckham vs. Matusz for instance. You now couldn't trade Matusz to get any of those guys straight up.

As I've said before, just because the Orioles do something, doesn't mean that it is right. And people have the right to question them.

Well that's mainly due to the teams that own those players not in desperate need of top pitching talent. Texas is loaded with pitchers and San Fran has Bumgarner and Alderson. Now Beckham for Matusz could be doable for the Chisox.

[waroriole]

Ahem...



Still waiting.

Where have Tampa, Oakland and others made a habit out of going over slot to sign picks? Please show me documentation where they do this on a yearly basis for multiple draft picks.

Thanks.

I would like to know the answer to this too. Interesting how he has responded to every other post but this one.

[Orioles West]

I didn't realize one had to be a scout on here to have a valid opinion. Unfortunately I have a job and can't afford the time nor the money to fly around the country to look at these kids and I rely on the reports of others who can. That's why they are paid to do what they do.

Could Joe Jordan be right and everybody else be wrong? Yes it's possible, but there's also a possiblity that Jordan could be wrong as well. And that idea is just blasphemy around here.

Look at Smoak/Posey/Beckham vs. Matusz for instance. You now couldn't trade Matusz to get any of those guys straight up.

As I've said before, just because the Orioles do something, doesn't mean that it is right. And people have the right to question them.


A lot of folks question the O's around here, it really is part of being a fan, I don't have much of a problem with that. I think the problems pop up for any of us here who post opinion as fact. Almost all of us who do that here get called out when assumptions are posted as absolutes.

We can find articles about players, but no one knows how well or even if those players will contribute at the MLB level.

We can assume a player was taken over budget issues, but we don't know the Orioles exact budget for any of it. Four million dollars to burn? I'm not even sure the Yankees would start a bonfire with that much money in this economy.

Yes, we can have opinions on scouting, but I'm not going to trust ANY of those opinions over a person who does the job full time. It is a bit like asking a pharmacist an opinion about my car engine.

In that sense, not all opinions are created equal, and uninformed opinions will generally be criticized in this forum.

And finally, back to Matzek, I don't know if they are using college as a bargaining ploy or not, but in an interview with the Denver Post, his family has expressed they would rather see their son go to school for at least a couple of years. It may not be a money issue at all. I guess we will find out for sure by the end of the summer. But we don't know for sure why 10 teams passed on him. Not yet anyway.



-Don

[QBsILLEST1]

But what place are we in our division? How many teams are better than us?

We can't just be outstanding. We have to be unreal if we are going to have all homegrown talent without major premium FA acquisitions.

Premium talent alone will win this division. The Orioles can't get enough into their system, and we certainly can't afford to pass on any in the draft for $ reasons.

And with the graduation of Wieters and Reimold to the majors, our system is no longer top 10.

Anyway, this thread has turned into another "attack JTrea" thread because I said something contrary to the "MacPhail knows all" mantra. Moose I haven't forgotten about your post and I'll elaborate in another thread, but I've got to gather the info all together first and I didn't want this thread to continue down this path...


The graduation of Wieters and Reimold do not make us fall outside of the top 10 minor league systems in baseball. Even though the both of them are off our top prospects list, the development and progression of best prospects make our system possibly even stronger than last year. Last year we had the #1 guy and then 2 in the 20's and Arrieta was back around 60. Now, both Tillman and Matusz may be top 10 guys in all of baseball(Tillman almost definately). Arrieta will probably be around the top 25 as well. Our 2nd tier pitchers also will be making moves on to the top 100 lists(Britton and Erbe) as long as Erbe returns strong from this rehab assignment. Hobgood will be another one of our top pitching prospects to throw into the mix. Unless the Big3 graduate, I see no way we fall out of the top 10, we may even wind up top 5, dont forget, we arent the only ones who are graduating top prospects this year......



Same thing happened in 2008 with Jerod Mayo...was considered a reach, dude was a beast. The Pats did the same with Logan Mankins in 2005. The list goes on and on.

I'm convinced that even if Hobgood was a carbon copy of Strasburg without the hype, this "thing" referred to as JTrea would think he sucks because he A) doesn't have a greedy agent and B) isn't seeking a well above slot bonus.

The videos I've seen of him make it hard to not like the pick. He touches 94-95 and has a nasty hook. He's not all about money though, so I guess he really does suck.


Ive heard most recently that he sits around 94-95 touching 97 with nasty movement. And a possible future plus plus curve, dudes gonna be nasty.....

[JTrea81]

I would like to know the answer to this too. Interesting how he has responded to every other post but this one.

See the MLB forum.

[waroriole]

See the MLB forum.

Yeah I saw it. Funny that you didn't mention '07 where the O's gave $7.7M in signing bonuses, the most in MLB.

[JTrea81]

Yeah I saw it. Funny that you didn't mention '07 where the O's gave $7.7M in signing bonuses, the most in MLB.

And how much did we spend on international talent? We have never given out a six figure bonus to international amateurs. And the Orioles spent only slightly more than $7 million in 2008 on the draft and it looks like we will spend even less than $6 million in 2009.

Our draft expenditures are decreasing since MacPhail took charge as well as the payroll. That is a fact. And before somebody mentions the down economy, the economy wasn't in recession until the very end of the 2008 season. And even then Peter Angelos had said money was not an issue for this club before going into FA.

It remains to be seen if we will take that money we didn't spend in FA or the draft and use it for international signings. I highly doubt that we will.

[Shopay]

I didn't realize one had to be a scout on here to have a valid opinion. Unfortunately I have a job and can't afford the time nor the money to fly around the country to look at these kids and I rely on the reports of others who can. That's why they are paid to do what they do.

Could Joe Jordan be right and everybody else be wrong? Yes it's possible, but there's also a possiblity that Jordan could be wrong as well. And that idea is just blasphemy around here.

Look at Smoak/Posey/Beckham vs. Matusz for instance. You now couldn't trade Matusz to get any of those guys straight up.

As I've said before, just because the Orioles do something, doesn't mean that it is right. And people have the right to question them.

I don't know if the bolded statement is true or not, and frankly, I doubt you know either. Morevover, I really don't care about that right now. If your statement is true three to five years from now, when presumably all these players will be well into their pro careers, then I will care.

[waroriole]

And how much did we spend on international talent? We have never given out a six figure bonus to international amateurs. And the Orioles spent only slightly more than $7 million in 2008 on the draft and will spend even less than $6 million in 2009.

Our draft expenditures are decreasing since MacPhail took charge as well as the payroll. That is a fact. And before somebody mentions the down economy, the economy wasn't in recession until the very end of the 2008 season. And even then Peter Angelos had said money was not an issue for this club before going into FA.

It remains to be seen if we will take that money we didn't spend in FA or the draft and use it for international signings. I highly doubt that we will.

One of the reasons you catch so much crap on this board is b/c you state opinions as facts. You have no idea how much money we will spend on the draft. Furthermore, you have no idea if that money will be spent more wisely than the A's or Rays. You don't know how much money AM has to spend b/c you haven't seen the books. You speculate that MASN makes tons of money, but ignore the fact that WAS is a drain on MASN. Despite this mountain of information that you don't have, you continue to speak on these subjects as though you are an authority just because you read one article that you think supports your conclusion. However, alot of times the article you refer to does not state the point you think it does.

As far as the "money that we didn't spend on FA" goes, there is a simple explanation. AM said that we were not going to buy any FA's this year. However, if Tex was open to coming to BAL (which he wasn't) then we would deviate from the plan. So, when he didn't sign here, it was not in our plans to use that money for something else.

As far as the draft expenditures dwindling since AM took over, that is just a perfect example of speaking in half-truths. It's similar to what someone like Rush Limbaugh would do. Yes, they have come down since AM took over. But, what you don't mention is that in 07 we spent 7.7M on the draft, the most in MLB. You gotta think that the number is going to come down from that the following year. Second, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WE WILL SPEND ON THE DRAFT THIS YEAR. Therefore, you only have one year to say that the draft spending has come down.

I don't expect you to respond to this post (at least not in any detail), but I hope you read it and take the time to think about how you come across on this board. People don't take your opinions seriously b/c you have an agenda, which is showing that the O's are cheap. Learn to present both sides of the argument and you will have much more credibility.

[QBsILLEST1]

And how much did we spend on international talent? We have never given out a six figure bonus to international amateurs. And the Orioles spent only slightly more than $7 million in 2008 on the draft and will spend even less than $6 million in 2009.

Our draft expenditures are decreasing since MacPhail took charge as well as the payroll. That is a fact. And before somebody mentions the down economy, the economy wasn't in recession until the very end of the 2008 season. And even then Peter Angelos had said money was not an issue for this club before going into FA.

It remains to be seen if we will take that money we didn't spend in FA or the draft and use it for international signings. I highly doubt that we will.


Who told you there was no recession until the end of the 08 season? That was when they declared it a recession, the recession officially began in December of 07 if I remember correctly. It takes longevity of a shrinking economy in order for it to be considered a true recession. So basically the entire time MacPhail as been here, the economy has been in recession.

And the international signings, it takes years to get settled in there and to build a rapport with the players in the itnernational places, with scouts and coaches out there. You have to develop a system out there, which MacPhail is doing, but you cannot create a pipeline of international prospects when you havent been out there for but a year or 2 and all the other teams have been out there for years and have been watching the best prospects develop in front of them and already basically have dibs on them. We cannot just step in after 1 year and seriously expect to pry away a top international free agent away from a team that has helped develop the kid since nearly TBall. It takes time, you must be patient.....

Seriously though Trea, I want all of the best players that are available to us just like you do, but what we have to understand that there is another determining factor besides just wanting something. It is MONEY!! Money doesnt grow on trees, the orioles do not have an infinite amount of money, they have a budget as all teams do. So we cannot dish out as much money as it takes to sign every overslot player available, or sign the most expensive free agents, but we do the best with what we have and that is the important thing....

[JTrea81]

Seriously though Trea, I want all of the best players that are available to us just like you do, but what we have to understand that there is another determining factor besides just wanting something. It is MONEY!! Money doesnt grow on trees, the orioles do not have an infinite amount of money, they have a budget as all teams do. So we cannot dish out as much money as it takes to sign every overslot player available, or sign the most expensive free agents, but we do the best with what we have and that is the important thing....

The Orioles have more money than some of you realize, but MacPhail has done a good job making some of you think they don't. I'm not going to be able to convince you but I sure will call them on it when the evidence is there. And I've already pointed out the enormous sum of money that other teams get with merchandising/TV which is distributed equally to each club and revenue sharing. And all of that is before MASN profits come in.

But some choose to disregard the evidence.

I'll believe what you guys are seeing with MacPhail when I actually see him commit club resources to sign premium talent drafted or to sign a premium FA (amateur or MLB) that is in demand by several clubs. I personally don't think you'll see it...

[QBsILLEST1]

I didn't realize one had to be a scout on here to have a valid opinion. Unfortunately I have a job and can't afford the time nor the money to fly around the country to look at these kids and I rely on the reports of others who can. That's why they are paid to do what they do.

Could Joe Jordan be right and everybody else be wrong? Yes it's possible, but there's also a possiblity that Jordan could be wrong as well. And that idea is just blasphemy around here.

Look at Smoak/Posey/Beckham vs. Matusz for instance. You now couldn't trade Matusz to get any of those guys straight up.

As I've said before, just because the Orioles do something, doesn't mean that it is right. And people have the right to question them.


I really do not see how you can say that, but you are probably just ignoring the progression Matusz has made in the minors. I personally wouldnt trade Matusz for any of those guys right now, he could honestly be the 1st ace we have had since Bedard. Beckham is not as valuable as Matusz is IMO, I dont want Posey for 1 I like Matusz's ceiling better and 2 we have Wieters so hed be redundant. Smoak is premium talent, but to me a #1/2 starter is worth more than a GG 1stbaseman with good power and bat, theres almost always more than 1 good 1stbaseman available per free agency year.

If you spent as much time following the actual players on our team than the ones we didnt draft, maybe youd actually be a fan of the orioles.

[Tony-OH]

You can't possibly believe that budget doesn't enter into Joe Jordan's draft process at all. MacPhail definitely gives him a budget to work with and that will limit who he can draft. What I am saying is that I would like to see what Jordan could do without financial constraints.

There is no scouting director in baseball outside of possibly the Yankees that doesn't have a budget to work from.

[QBsILLEST1]

The Orioles have more money than some of you realize, but MacPhail has done a good job making some of you think they don't. I'm not going to be able to convince you but I sure will call them on it when the evidence is there.

But some choose to disregard the evidence.

I'll believe what you guys are seeing with MacPhail when I actually see him commit club resources to sign premium talent he's drafted or to sign a premium FA (amateur or MLB) that is in demand by several clubs.

Who cares if they have more money than we realize. They could be saving up money for a splash in FA that AM has been talking about, we could be ramping up to sign Sano or another international guy. You are turning the game of baseball into some sort of a conspiracy.

What you fail to realize, is that not every ball player has Baltimore at the top of their list of places to play at. 11 years of losing has put a sour taste in folks mouths about this team. That is what we are trying to rid ourselves of, that image that you continue to look for any evidence possible that we are still the same poorly run ball club we were 5 years ago.... That is why it is so tough for us to get premium talent here from FA. I have never heard you say anything complimentary about this team. If you are gonna be the 1st to criticize why is it so impossible to give props to where its due?

[JTrea81]

Who cares if they have more money than we realize. They could be saving up money for a splash in FA that AM has been talking about, we could be ramping up to sign Sano or another international guy. You are turning the game of baseball into some sort of a conspiracy.

What you fail to realize, is that not every ball player has Baltimore at the top of their list of places to play at. 11 years of losing has put a sour taste in folks mouths about this team. That is what we are trying to rid ourselves of, that image that you continue to look for any evidence possible that we are still the same poorly run ball club we were 5 years ago.... That is why it is so tough for us to get premium talent here from FA. I have never heard you say anything complimentary about this team. If you are gonna be the 1st to criticize why is it so impossible to give props to where its due?

Money talks for international signings. Sano's agent has said money will be the determining factor. If we want him we'd better be the highest bidder. And FAs don't want to play here. That's the point. So we'd be best to invest a larger sum of money than other clubs in international talent and the draft. If we aren't going to be able to spend money for MLB FAs, that is the place to spend it, as money usually is the factor in both instead of popularity. And the FA class keeps getting worse and there will be increased competition. If the Orioles are ramping up for something, they are going to be disappointed and will have let other talent that then can acquire through other avenues, slip through their fingers.

We should have had Oakland's draft IMO as far as talent, as we can afford to spend $15 million on bonuses if need be. We don't have to have a budget under $10 million. If we are going to go hog wild in international signings, then that's fine, but I don't think that is going to happen.

I just keep seeing the Orioles' revenue stream increasing and their expenditures decreasing, and that doesn't make sense to me.

[JTrea81]

There is no scouting director in baseball outside of possibly the Yankees that doesn't have a budget to work from.

But why does ours have to be less than Oakland's when it comes to international signings and the draft?

[itsernst]

There's your evidence. MacPhail doesn't want to have to recruit the player to play for the Orioles. Well I'm sorry, but the Orioles especially in the AL East may have to do some actual recruiting to get top talent here. That is MacPhail's job. The Orioles can't sell themselves, even to a HS kid.

There's a reason you have to beg. It's called the player has talent and wants to be compensated for it and would rather get a college education than possibly be stuck on a losing franchise.

Signable does not necessarily = BPA. The Orioles needed to take the BPA and the jury is certainly out if Hobgood was that...

I swear...you never cease to amaze me. Do you just sit in your room kicking puppy dogs all day? You have to be the most negative person I have ever met. The kid is talented; Matzek may have been the top overall HS pitcher, but the staff felt like he wasnt a good fit. Does McPhail tell you that you are flipping the burgers wrong when you are at work?

The bolded part is just ridiculous; Rarely...very rarely will you see a HS kid pass up millions for college, especially if he is a pitcher; The fact is that injuries are a part of the game and to say a pitcher would pass it up millions of dollars (no matter what franchise) to get a college education is a fallacy.

[JTrea81]

I swear...you never cease to amaze me. Do you just sit in your room kicking puppy dogs all day? You have to be the most negative person I have ever met. The kid is talented; Matzek may have been the top overall HS pitcher, but the staff felt like he wasnt a good fit. Does McPhail tell you that you are flipping the burgers wrong when you are at work?

The bolded part is just ridiculous; Rarely...very rarely will you see a HS kid pass up millions for college, especially if he is a pitcher; The fact is that injuries are a part of the game and to say a pitcher would pass it up millions of dollars (no matter what franchise) to get a college education is a fallacy.

What about Gerrit Cole who the Yankees drafted?

And no I don't flip burgers for a living and frankly I find that offensive not because flipping burgers is beneath me, but because you are trying to insult me by saying that people that flip burgers are lesser people. MacPhail is basically like the CEO of the Orioles, and like any CEO who makes the money he does, he is subject to scrutiny.

[itsernst]

I swear...you never cease to amaze me. Do you just sit in your room kicking puppy dogs all day? You have to be the most negative person I have ever met. The kid is talented; Matzek may have been the top overall HS pitcher, but the staff felt like he wasnt a good fit. Does McPhail tell you that you are flipping the burgers wrong when you are at work?

The bolded part is just ridiculous; Rarely...very rarely will you see a HS kid pass up millions for college, especially if he is a pitcher; The fact is that injuries are a part of the game and to say a pitcher would pass it up millions of dollars (no matter what franchise) to get a college education is a fallacy.

See bold.

-letters

[Lucky Jim]

What about Gerrit Cole who the Yankees drafted?

And no I don't flip burgers for a living and frankly I find that offensive not because flipping burgers is beneath me, but because you are trying to insult me by saying that people that flip burgers are lesser people. MacPhail is basically like the CEO of the Orioles, and like any CEO who makes the money he does is subject to scrutiny.

You don't offer scrutiny. You offer monomaniacal hysteria.

There's a difference, but most of realize by now that you don't know what the difference is.

[itsernst]

What about Gerrit Cole who the Yankees drafted?

And no I don't flip burgers for a living and frankly I find that offensive not because flipping burgers is beneath me, but because you are trying to insult me by saying that people that flip burgers are lesser people. MacPhail is basically like the CEO of the Orioles, and like any CEO who makes the money he does, he is subject to scrutiny.


Wow...just wow.

[McLovin]

Hey guess what - Markakis was scorned as a 'signability' pick. I remember people freaking out because we didn't pick the great Michael Aubrey (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/A/Michael-Aubrey.shtml).

[wickedwitch]

But why does ours have to be less than Oakland's when it comes to international signings and the draft?

If the Orioles do have a lesser budget, why do you assume that this is MacPhail's doing and not Angelos'?

[JTrea81]

If the Orioles do have a lesser budget, why do you assume that this is MacPhail's doing and not Angelos'?

Because I believe MacPhail has total control of Baseball Operations but is risk adverse and frugal just like Angelos. Hence why Angelos trusts him.

[ChaosLex]

This thread is fast approaching "classic" status. ;)

[RenegadeOsFan]

Look at Smoak/Posey/Beckham vs. Matusz for instance. You now couldn't trade Matusz to get any of those guys straight up.

I agree with you Trea, I know you probably could not. That is because a top-tier premium arm like Matusz is either equal or much more valuable to our organization right now than to those three you compare.

I was actually a Smoak proponent during last years draft, but reality hit me a long time ago Trea.

I don't post much around here, but I read here a lot, and your logic hurts. Stop comparing Smoak to Matusz, please man. If there is one thing that I have learned over the past year, it is that pitching outweighs hitting...especially when you are trying to contend in the AL East.

Your constant comparison is not a true comparison. You cannot compare the progress and projection of a positional player to a pitcher like the way you are doing. Instead look at how far Matusz has come in only 3 months so far this year. The kid is going to be amazing. The only way that you can compare Matusz to a positional player, I think, is by looking at how he is progressing as quickly as Weiters did through his movement in the farm systems. Other than that, please only compare Matusz to a pitcher from last years draft from now on.

And about your argument that MacPhail is frugal...again I have to agree with you Trea.

Per Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, frugality is being careful in the use of one's money or resources. MacPhail's track records show that the man is careful with his money and the budgets that he is given. But the record also reflects how efficient and good the man is at his job. He spends money when he needs to and holds back from, as you stated, burning himself.

Why is this direction of running a business bad to you? Especially in an economy that is in the condition it is in today.

I want to reiterate what Moose said, the Orioles are not the Sox or Yankees. We cannot burn money the way that they can, nor can we even burn money the way that you want. The way you have been arguing these past months you could pass yourself off as working for the Federal Treasury or the Federal Reserve by the way you want to toss out money that is not really there. And real quick, have you not heard Dave Johnson report back in April that the Orioles initial offer to Texieira was the $140 and that Boras and his client never contacted the Orioles after that? That's not low-balling, that is negotiating and proof that Mark never wanted to come to B-more.

In regards to the money the A's and Rays have paid to draft picks and international players, was it not only 2 years ago that MacPhail created the international scouting program for the Orioles? Where we are now scouting players in Asia finally and created a complex in the Dominican to scout players from that region? Give the team time to grow before you start lambasting it and comparing them to other teams. Why do you neglect to mention these facts in your posts Trea?

Everyone is allowed his/her opinion and I, like many others, respect some of the opinions you write on the board Trea. However, your constant bias attitude against MacPhail and the FO is repulsive. If you backed your opinions with more facts and not mere puffery then discussions like these will benefit all of us instead of making us having to take two tylenols before refreshing the screen.

[Old#5fan]

What on earth are you even talking about? He's irritated because he absolutely thinks that Hobgood was the best player available, probably because Jordan thinks he was the best player available, but people are running with the perception that it was just a signability pick. That's all that comment was. It sounds like he just got tired of hearing "Oh, you guys just picked Hobgood because he would sign, not because he was the best talent," and wanted to set the record straight.

You think Matzek's a better pitcher then fine. Whatever. The FO thinks that Hobgood was the better pitcher, and it's certainly a plus BUT NOT THE DETERMINING FACTOR that Hobgood wants to play here and will sign. He's basically saying, "Just because a kid's going to be a tough sign doesn't make him the best player."

This thread will be funny to revisit in a few years to see how Matzek's faring compared to Hobgood. I got a bad feeling with Hobgood. I think he's going to join the long list of bad first round picks like Beau Hale, Billy Rowell, Larry Bigbie, et al.

[Lucky Jim]

This thread will be funny to revisit in a few years to see how Matzek's faring compared to Hobgood. I got a bad feeling with Hobgood. I think he's going to join the long list of bad first round picks like Beau Hale, Billy Rowell, Larry Bigbie, et al.

Well, with all that in-depth research you do, this is pretty ominous.

[geschinger]

Look at Smoak/Posey/Beckham vs. Matusz for instance. You now couldn't trade Matusz to get any of those guys straight up.

I don't think you could do the opposite either. I don't think one of Smoak/Posey/Beckham would be enough for the Orioles to trade Matusz.

[Frobby]

Look at Smoak/Posey/Beckham vs. Matusz for instance. You now couldn't trade Matusz to get any of those guys straight up.

Says who? These guys are having good years, but so is Matusz, and I'm just as satisfied with that pick today as I was a year ago.

[RenegadeOsFan]

Says who? These guys are having good years, but so is Matusz, and I'm just as satisfied with that pick today as I was a year ago.

I don't know if we should make a poll for this, but after 3 months of Matusz, and comparing him to the other guys Trea brought up, would you rather a Matusz, a potential #1 starter or someone like Smoak, a potential GG power-hitting positional player?

This goes out to everyone.

I'd take the #1 starter hands-down. Matusz is cleaning up in the minors.

[McLovin]

I don't know if we should make a poll for this, but after 3 months of Matusz, and comparing him to the other guys Trea brought up, would you rather a Matusz, a potential #1 starter or someone like Smoak, a potential GG power-hitting positional player?

This goes out to everyone.

I'd take the #1 starter hands-down. Matusz is cleaning up in the minors.
But we already have so many great starters on the Big League team. We need to develop hitters to mitigate the weak core of Reimold-Jones-Markakis-Roberts-Wieters...

[RenegadeOsFan]

But we already have so many great starters on the Big League team. We need to develop hitters to mitigate the weak core of Reimold-Jones-Markakis-Roberts-Wieters...

Touche McLovin. How could I be so blind to that blatant weakness? :eektf:

[Burg]

This thread will be funny to revisit in a few years to see how Matzek's faring compared to Hobgood. I got a bad feeling with Hobgood. I think he's going to join the long list of bad first round picks like Beau Hale, Billy Rowell, Larry Bigbie, et al.

Considering your past record of predictions, this is the best news I've heard in a long time.

[ChaosLex]

This thread will be funny to revisit in a few years to see how Matzek's faring compared to Hobgood. I got a bad feeling with Hobgood. I think he's going to join the long list of bad first round picks like Beau Hale, Billy Rowell, Larry Bigbie, et al.

A lot of people say they see a lot of Clemens and/or Gossage in Hobgood.

I'll take it! :clap3:

[JTrea81]

But we already have so many great starters on the Big League team. We need to develop hitters to mitigate the weak core of Reimold-Jones-Markakis-Roberts-Wieters...

It's foolish to assume all of these players will all be healthy and productive for the next 4-5 years.

Not to mention Roberts will decline over the next 4 years.

The better the offense you have, the less pressure you put on the pitching.

[Lucky Jim]

It's foolish to assume all of these players will all be healthy and productive for the next 4-5 years.

Not to mention Roberts will decline over the next 4 years.

The better the offense you have, the less pressure you put on the pitching.

They're more likely to be productive than pitchers, though, right?

[SrMeowMeow]

I really wish you would quit calling him our lil buddy, like he's some lovable crazy character. He's an embarrassment to the board. Hobgood's family reads the board, and he just continues to go on and on.

I know you like to think that everyone's opinion is valid, and I would as well, but clearly that's just not the case.

This should be read again. It's why this argument isn't worth having.

[itsernst]

It's foolish to assume all of these players will all be healthy and productive for the next 4-5 years.

Not to mention Roberts will decline over the next 4 years.

The better the offense you have, the less pressure you put on the pitching.

This can go either way. You just always look at it from an offensive standpoint. Better pitching alleviates the need for some hybrid robot hitting team that you envision.

[napbow]

So by your logic, if 10 other guys think that a girl is the prettiest girl in the school, and she's making clear she's going to play hard to get, and you happen to think that some other girl is better looking, you should ask the first girl out.

(Disclaimer: No I am not saying that you decide who to ask out based solely on her looks; I'm just trying to keep my analogy simple.)

What did BA have to say about her?

[PaulBako]

It's foolish to assume all of these players will all be healthy and productive for the next 4-5 years.

Not to mention Roberts will decline over the next 4 years.

The better the offense you have, the less pressure you put on the pitching.

Who says our pitching will be healthy and productive?

[RenegadeOsFan]

The better the offense you have, the less pressure you put on the pitching.

And in that regard, the better pitching you have the less pressure you put on your offense.

Ahhhh...the ying and the yang...the positive and the negative...the good and the bad...

So what are you trying to say with that quote? Say we have a good offense...well a team that has good pitching could come in and shut down the offense, thus resulting in more pressure on the pitching, which in turn will result in lopsided victories right??...

Which in turn will result in fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling! Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

I love the Ghostbusters :clap3:

[CrimsonTribe]

http://briansrapier.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/energizer-bunny.jpg

[QBsILLEST1]

This thread will be funny to revisit in a few years to see how Matzek's faring compared to Hobgood. I got a bad feeling with Hobgood. I think he's going to join the long list of bad first round picks like Beau Hale, Billy Rowell, Larry Bigbie, et al.


Well, with all that in-depth research you do, this is pretty ominous.

LOL this thread is getting better and better!

[QBsILLEST1]

It's foolish to assume all of these players will all be healthy and productive for the next 4-5 years.

Not to mention Roberts will decline over the next 4 years.

The better the offense you have, the less pressure you put on the pitching.

Dude, bottom line is that good pitching beats good hitting. Hence the reason Texas hasnt been in the post season since I can remember, and teams like the Twins are yearly contenders. You need pitching to contend. Right now our offense is playoff caliber, but the pitching isnt. We honestly wouldnt have to make another acquisition for a position player to make the playoffs, we need pitching. Right now if we had the rotation from the Sox or the Yanks or even the Rays, we would be IMO in 1st place in the AL east. What is your obsession with offense?

[Moose Milligan]

What is your obsession with offense?

We haven't had a winning team since Rafael Palmeiro's first go-round with the team.

[PBR Street Gang]

Hobgood won't be a factor on the MLB level until at least '13 and that's if he is rushed. Everyone should give him a chance to develop and grow.

Jordan has done pretty good with his pitching picks lately.

[SrMeowMeow]

Dude, bottom line is that good pitching beats good hitting. Hence the reason Texas hasnt been in the post season since I can remember, and teams like the Twins are yearly contenders. You need pitching to contend. Right now our offense is playoff caliber, but the pitching isnt. We honestly wouldnt have to make another acquisition for a position player to make the playoffs, we need pitching. Right now if we had the rotation from the Sox or the Yanks or even the Rays, we would be IMO in 1st place in the AL east. What is your obsession with offense?

Ugh...enough with the baseball cliches...

[QBsILLEST1]

Ugh...enough with the baseball cliches...

Why? Its not like it isnt true.....If you dont want to read about baseball cliches then you are on the wrong website....

[csgordos]

I don't know if we should make a poll for this, but after 3 months of Matusz, and comparing him to the other guys Trea brought up, would you rather a Matusz, a potential #1 starter or someone like Smoak, a potential GG power-hitting positional player?

This goes out to everyone.

I'd take the #1 starter hands-down. Matusz is cleaning up in the minors.

PITCHING and DEFENSE!!!! Wins every time. We beat Hamels 2-1!!!!

[QBsILLEST1]

Hobgood won't be a factor on the MLB level until at least '13 and that's if he is rushed. Everyone should give him a chance to develop and grow.

Jordan has done pretty good with his pitching picks lately.

Your saying if he is in the minors for 4 years he is being rushed? There is no sense in using generalizations when developing prospects. Every kid is different, some will develop quicker than others. He may be ready in 3 years or even less. He is said to be fairly advanced for a prep arm, and to be completely honest, I expect him to move pretty quickly thro the minors. Its not about the amount of time the prospect spends in certain levels, its about how much they develop while there. Maybe he dominates this year in Bluefield and Aberdeen, kicks off next year with Delmarva and dominates there and they jump him up to Fredrick by the end of 2010. From there he only has 2 levels to the majors, not saying this will happen, but could happen....

[SrMeowMeow]

Why? Its not like it isnt true.....If you dont want to read about baseball cliches then you are on the wrong website....

Of course it's not true. Sometimes good hitting beats good pitching, and sometimes bad hitting beats good pitching, and sometimes bad pitching beats good hitting. Building a winning ballclub can't be reduced to "pitching wins" or "pitching, defense and the three run homer" or everyone would follow the same model.

[QBsILLEST1]

The sayign that good pitching beats good hitting means that no matter how good the hitter is, if the pitcher executes the way they are supposed to, they will win the battle....

[SrMeowMeow]

I don't want to beat this to death, and it's not a big deal. So let me just say that I understand (and understood) what you're saying, and I disagree.

[QBsILLEST1]

I don't want to beat this to death, and it's not a big deal. So let me just say that I understand (and understood) what you're saying, and I disagree.

Ok, but because you disagree doesnt mean I cannot say what I believe.

[tywright]

Hey guess what - Markakis was scorned as a 'signability' pick. I remember people freaking out because we didn't pick the great Michael Aubrey (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/A/Michael-Aubrey.shtml).

Well wouldn't you know, we just acquired Michael Aubrey

http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/06/aubrey_to_the_os.html

[alexei606]

Originally Posted by McLovin View Post
Hey guess what - Markakis was scorned as a 'signability' pick. I remember people freaking out because we didn't pick the great Michael Aubrey.


Well wouldn't you know, we just acquired Michael Aubrey

http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/06/aubrey_to_the_os.html

Pretty freakin' scary - McLovin the Orioles now have both - you called it (though obviously, inadvertently). :)

[Mark Carver]

Well wouldn't you know, we just acquired Michael Aubrey

http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/06/aubrey_to_the_os.html

Ok, inquiring minds want to know. In 2003... how did BA rank him and did the Orioles pass over him? I mean, come on, he's a lefty, he's a 1B'man, he's made for Camden Yards!

;)

[QBsILLEST1]

Ok, inquiring minds want to know. In 2003... how did BA rank him and did the Orioles pass over him? I mean, come on, he's a lefty, he's a 1B'man, he's made for Camden Yards!

;)

Ya know, maybe one day in 2015 we will acquire some AAAA pitcher named Tyler Matzek......And then people will say, "I remember when we passed over him to get Hobgood, boy was I wrong".......Of course no one thinks Matzek will end up AAAA fodder, but Im sure in 2003 no one expected this guy to be AAAA fodder either.....

[BeerIsFood]

If Hobgood is the USA Today High School player of the year...then that is good enough for me, and is proof enough to me. I like the pick, I think Jordan knows more than anyone on this board, and I am going to reserve judgement on this draft pick until at least 2 years down the road. To try and pick this draft apart now is an exercise in futility and is pretty insane if you ask me.

[QBsILLEST1]

If Hobgood is the USA Today High School player of the year...then that is good enough for me, and is proof enough to me. I like the pick, I think Jordan knows more than anyone on this board, and I am going to reserve judgement on this draft pick until at least 2 years down the road. To try and pick this draft apart now is an exercise in futility and is pretty insane if you ask me.

There is nothing wrong with dissecting it and analyzing it with the info that we know now, its just no sense in being overly critical and not to pass judgement until there is actual evidence that a pick was a bad pick.....I personally like this year's draft, a lot, but will not know how truely good or bad of a draft it was until atleast 2014.....

[allstar1579]

There is nothing wrong with dissecting it and analyzing it with the info that we know now, its just no sense in being overly critical and not to pass judgement until there is actual evidence that a pick was a bad pick.....I personally like this year's draft, a lot, but will not know how truely good or bad of a draft it was until atleast 2014.....

I don't know that I'd go quite that far but I agree, I think by 2012 we should have a good guess of how this draft turned out but by 2013 we should have a good full picture :)

If you are hanging the success of this draft on how Hobgood performs, we should feel good about that after we see him in Frederick, other than that I would hinge how we did on how many of these guys we sign. Getting Givens and Hobs under contract would be a pretty good draft already.

[LookinUp]

This is posted in the minors forum, but it's relevant here as well.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/o...,7482701.story

It looks like Hobgood has agreed to terms and is in Baltimore taking his physical today. He should be introduced on Saturday.