I don't get all of the whining

[McLovin]

The Ravens lost that game. The refs didn't beat them. Heck, I'm not sure the Patriots beat them. The Ravens lost that game, period.

I just don't understand all of the whining. It's a national story. It's embarrassing to our city and to our fanbase.

I watched that entire game, and I think the refs got every call right. All three roughing the passer calls (yes, including Flacco's) were legit. They were sloppy, undisciplined plays by the defender's.

That motion penalty on the fake FG was a gift too BTW. It looked like he stopped just fine on the replay. It could have easily been overlooked.

And Harbaugh deserved the penalty he got. Yet another embarrassing and undisciplined act.

The Ravens lost that game. No one beat them. Quit whining, it's unbecoming.

[ShaneDawg85]

Because in their minds and everyone elses, it's always someone elses fault.

Maybe if Carr, who has been horrible all season, doesn't fumble on the opening kickoff we don't give up the field goal and that's the difference, resulting in a win. Maybe if twice when we get deep in their territory we don't turn it over and remember to catch passes, we at least get some field goals and the score is tied. Maybe if we don't commit 9 penalties, including one on the sideline, ie the coach, we win the game.

But instead it's the refs fault. It's someone elses fault. The Ravens had the Patriots on the ropes again, and once again they lost their resolve and couldn't come up when it matters the most. I still think this team is going to do very well this season. But until they come through and keep themselves together against a quality opponent, I don't see this team rising to the next level. Great teams don't implode, they don't commit stupid penalties and blow chances, and they don't blame everyone else.

[Satyr3206]

I must be a geezer because when I played you actually had to get hit to draw a roughing flag.

[MikeAD]

I must be a geezer because when I played you actually had to get hit to draw a roughing flag.

If we had covered a Wide Receiver the flag on Suggs wouldn't have been an issue.

Sorry, as always the calls aren't nearly as important as all of the failed/poor plays.

[The Wedge]

What I don't get is how the Peter King, who is usually really great, calls Clayton Michael three separate times in his MMQB column.

[MikeAD]

What I don't get is how the Peter King, who is usually really great, calls Clayton Michael three separate times in his MMQB column.

Whats weird is that this is pretty common and not just for Clayton. At least there IS a Michael Clayton. A lot of our players get called the wrong thing all the time, and not just by the terrible CBS crew.

[McLovin]

I must be a geezer because when I played you actually had to get hit to draw a roughing flag.
That's fine, but a rule is a rule. It's pretty simple really. Just because it's not 'tuff', doesn't mean they don't have to follow it.

[McLovin]

Great teams don't implode, they don't commit stupid penalties and blow chances, and they don't blame everyone else.
That sums it up nicely.

I'm not down on the Ravens - they will be fine. Like I said, the Ravens beat the Ravens yesterday.

[The Wedge]

That's fine, but a rule is a rule. It's pretty simple really. Just because it's not 'tuff', doesn't mean they don't have to follow it.

Well, you get two reasons for the whining...you get your initial whining because it kills the team plus you see Tom Brady begging for the flag and getting it, or that's how it's perceived. So a double dagger there and people start complaining. Then, after the game, half the analysts out there are complaining about it, giving them credence and clearance to complain more about the flags.

[Hank Scorpio]

If we had covered a Wide Receiver the flag on Suggs wouldn't have been an issue.

Sorry, as always the calls aren't nearly as important as all of the failed/poor plays.

100% agree with this and the OP.

The rules are the rules. Yeah, some of them are BS, but all the defensive players know them.

[TGO]

Our defenders know the rules, or they should. They got flags for doing stupid things. They did stupid things because the Pats OL owned them in pass protection all day.

[Burg]

That's fine, but a rule is a rule. It's pretty simple really. Just because it's not 'tuff', doesn't mean they don't have to follow it.


And sometimes a rule is a bad rule. Should defensive players not try to swat a pass down because they may graze the QB's helmet? That's ridiculous. Roughing, IMO, implies an intent to injure. The league has gone overboard with the "protecting the QB thing". And Brady wasn't even hit on the second one.

I agree with the gist of your post. The Ravens, despite the horrible calls, should have won that game. But I cannot disagree with you more when you state that the roughing calls (all 3, the one on Flacco was BS too) were acceptable.

[Satyr3206]

That's fine, but a rule is a rule. It's pretty simple really. Just because it's not 'tuff', doesn't mean they don't have to follow it.

Sort of like the law against jaywalking?:D

[McLovin]

And sometimes a rule is a bad rule. Should defensive players not try to swat a pass down because they may graze the QB's helmet? That's ridiculous. Roughing, IMO, implies an intent to injure. The league has gone overboard with the "protecting the QB thing". And Brady wasn't even hit on the second one.

I agree with the gist of your post. The Ravens, despite the horrible calls, should have won that game. But I cannot disagree with you more when you state that the roughing calls (all 3, the one on Flacco was BS too) were acceptable.
Just because it's a bad rule, doesn't mean the Ravens can ignore it. You hit the big round thing on a QB's head? 15 yards. You hit the long skinny things below the knees? 15 yards. That's how it works, like it or not. And this is not a fluke with the Ravens. It's a pattern. They get these 15 yard roughing the passer penalties all the time in big games.

[Hank Scorpio]

Listen guys, if it's ever CLOSE to questionable and the quarterback happens to be Tom Brady, who blew out his knee and missed an entire season a few years ago, and he turns around and requests a flag, he is going to get that flag every single solitary time.

Period.

They allllllllllllllll know this. The entire league knows this.

[Satyr3206]

Listen guys, if it's ever CLOSE to questionable and the quarterback happens to be Tom Brady, who blew out his knee and missed an entire season a few years ago, and he turns around and requests a flag, he is going to get that flag every single solitary time.

Period.

They allllllllllllllll know this. The entire league knows this.

And you think that's fair? That means the league is playing favorites. That's disgusting.

[nemO821]

And you think that's fair? That means the league is playing favorites. That's disgusting.

There not just conspiracy theories. If a Patriots player dove at Joe Flacco's knee he and you would both be begging for a flag as well, but the Patriots know the rules so it didnt happen.

[Satyr3206]

There not just conspiracy theories. If a Patriots player dove at Joe Flacco's knee he and you would both be begging for a flag as well, but the Patriots know the rules so it didnt happen.

The simple solution to this is to play the game the way it was intended. It's not two handed touch or flag football. If you put on the equipment you can be hit. Simple.

[nemO821]

The simple solution to this is to play the game the way it was intended. It's not two handed touch or flag football. If you put on the equipment you can be hit. Simple.

Ya but Bradys not the one throwing the flags out even though every one thinks he is.

[Who's On 1st]

100% agree with this and the OP.

The rules are the rules. Yeah, some of them are BS, but all the defensive players know them.

I agree with this! Too many STUPID rules in this New Era of football.

Our Defense just didn't play as good as they are up to. Way too many missed tackles!!!!

Our team got called for way too many flags. You make mistakes you pay! You move on.

We BEAT ourselves on this one.

[McLovin]

The simple solution to this is to play the game the way it was intended. It's not two handed touch or flag football. If you put on the equipment you can be hit. Simple.
And until the time when that's what the rulebook says, the simple solution is to follow the rules.

[geschinger]

Just because it's a bad rule, doesn't mean the Ravens can ignore it. You hit the big round thing on a QB's head? 15 yards. You hit the long skinny things below the knees? 15 yards. That's how it works, like it or not. And this is not a fluke with the Ravens. It's a pattern. They get these 15 yard roughing the passer penalties all the time in big games.

This is not entirely accurate or at least that is not supposed to be how it works. The Brady rule says:

"A rushing defender is prohibited from forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground, even if the initial contact is above the knee. It is not a foul if the defender is blocked (or fouled) into the passer and has no opportunity to avoid him."

At the very least I think it was a misinterpretation of the Brady rule as what happened could not be classified as "forcibily hitting" by any definition of "forcibly" that I am aware of.

[Sports Guy]

There not just conspiracy theories. If a Patriots player dove at Joe Flacco's knee he and you would both be begging for a flag as well, but the Patriots know the rules so it didnt happen.

What if the player is pushed though?

See, that's the difference...Is it an accident that couldn't be prevented or is it intentional.

As Hank said, it just is what it is..There is nothing that can be done about it...The league babies the star QBs and they always will.

But they need to get rid of the gray area in the rule book...You either truly rough a guy with intention or you go to block a pass and barely touch his helmet...A blow to the head and unintentionally barely touching the helmet aren't the same thing and anyone who thinks it is doesn't have a freaking clue as to what they are talking about.

Hell, on the play Gaither got hurt on yesterday, the Pats clearly hit Flacco well after he had gotten rid of the ball and nothing was called on that...and you know what, it shouldn't have been called...Momentum of huge athletes caused them to hit Flacco but that is a call that should have been made if you look at what they do in this league.

I heard Dilfer discussing how Russell got clocked up near his head yesterday in a game and it didn't get called...why? because he is JaMarcus Russell.

[McLovin]

This is not entirely accurate or at least that is not supposed to be how it works. The Brady rule says:

"A rushing defender is prohibited from forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground, even if the initial contact is above the knee. It is not a foul if the defender is blocked (or fouled) into the passer and has no opportunity to avoid him."

At the very least I think it was a misinterpretation of the Brady rule as what happened could not be classified as "forcibily hitting" by any definition of "forcibly" that I am aware of.
OK, fine, sure. I wasn't being literal.

The Suggs play was almost a dirty play. He kind of run-crawled directly at his knees, and hit him late to boot.

[NewMarketSean]

I am not whining, but the NFL is overly protecting Brady. I mean he asked for a penalty on the one RTP call and the ref gave it to him! Those RTP calls were borderline at best. Granted they were to the face but they were incidental because the guys were going for the ball.

The call on the bench was also pretty awful too. I wonder what is said to the refs by other HC's in the league and what they get away with.

[geschinger]

OK, fine, sure. I wasn't being literal.

The Suggs play was almost a dirty play. He kind of run-crawled directly at his knees, and hit him late to boot.

I don't think it should have drawn a flag. I find it hard to disagree w/Dungy's take...

"The rule states that you cannot hit a quarterback low, forcibly. This was not enough force to make this call."

[Mackus]

OK, fine, sure. I wasn't being literal.

The Suggs play was almost a dirty play. He kind of run-crawled directly at his knees, and hit him late to boot.It most certainly was not dirty. I won't go as far to say he was blocked into Brady, but there was contact with the offensive lineman as he started falling down when he made that last dive. The only way you could think it was a dirty play is if you are making up your own dialogue to go along with the action on the field.

So, penalty? Yes. Dirty play? Absolutely not.

[McLovin]

It most certainly was not dirty. I won't go as far to say he was blocked into Brady, but there was contact with the offensive lineman as he started falling down when he made that last dive. The only way you could think it was a dirty play is if you are making up your own dialogue to go along with the action on the field.
Contact with an offensive lineman? He ran five yards and dove at Brady's knees. It was either one of two things - dirty or dumb.

The 12 second mark has the best view. The closest relevant offensive lineman is 10 yards away.

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[Old#5fan]

Because in their minds and everyone elses, it's always someone elses fault.

Maybe if Carr, who has been horrible all season, doesn't fumble on the opening kickoff we don't give up the field goal and that's the difference, resulting in a win. Maybe if twice when we get deep in their territory we don't turn it over and remember to catch passes, we at least get some field goals and the score is tied. Maybe if we don't commit 9 penalties, including one on the sideline, ie the coach, we win the game.

But instead it's the refs fault. It's someone elses fault. The Ravens had the Patriots on the ropes again, and once again they lost their resolve and couldn't come up when it matters the most. I still think this team is going to do very well this season. But until they come through and keep themselves together against a quality opponent, I don't see this team rising to the next level. Great teams don't implode, they don't commit stupid penalties and blow chances, and they don't blame everyone else.

Conversely, I don't want to hear how awesome the Patriots are because they were outplayed in that game and if Clayton catches a ball he catches 99/100 times I think the Patriots would be the team whining. The Patriots are the most overated team in the NFL right now, and yes they get every borderline call and Brady is treated like a primma donna by the referees. If you don't see that you are blind to the obvious.

[McLovin]

Conversely, I don't want to hear how awesome the Patriots are because they were outplayed in that game and if Clayton catches a ball he catches 99/100 times I think the Patriots would be the team whining. The Patriots are the most overated team in the NFL right now.
I don't know if they are overrated. But the Ravens are the better team.

[Old#5fan]

I don't know if they are overrated. But the Ravens are the better team.

Amen brother. The Patriots are a dropped pass away from being beaten on their home turf with all of their players that were supposedly "injured" before the game started (Wilford and Welker) playing the entire game like there was no tomorrow. (Another thing which torqued me about in how Bellicheck lied that they probably wouldn't play.:angryfire:

[Dr. FLK]

If we had covered a Wide Receiver the flag on Suggs wouldn't have been an issue.

Sorry, as always the calls aren't nearly as important as all of the failed/poor plays.

The pass defense still doesn't look so hot...

[Mackus]

Contact with an offensive lineman? He ran five yards and dove at Brady's knees. It was either one of two things - dirty or dumb.

The 12 second mark has the best view. The closest relevant offensive lineman is 10 yards away.

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The LG gives him a shove as Suggs ran by him and as he was going towards Brady he stumbles over the leg of the LT as he's lunging for Brady.

He very obviously wasn't in entire control of his body, he was off balance and stumbling the whole time he was trying to get to Brady. If you're saying its a dirty play then you're putting your own spin on this that just isn't there.

Put it this way, if it was anything even remotely dirty, the Pats would be complaining about it being a cheap shot. They aren't the type of organization that doesn't bring it up when they think someone has taken a cheap shot at them. That wouldn't prove it is dirty if they were complaining, but the lack of complaint is pretty convincing evidence that it wasn't dirty.

[Dr. FLK]

The LG gives him a shove as Suggs ran by him and as he was going towards Brady he stumbles over the leg of the LT as he's lunging for Brady.

He very obviously wasn't in entire control of his body, he was off balance and stumbling the whole time he was trying to get to Brady. If you're saying its a dirty play then you're putting your own spin on this that just isn't there.

Put it this way, if it was anything even remotely dirty, the Pats would be complaining about it being a cheap shot. They aren't the type of organization that doesn't bring it up when they think someone has taken a cheap shot at them. That wouldn't prove it is dirty if they were complaining, but the lack of complaint is pretty convincing evidence that it wasn't dirty.

I agree with you on this one completely. I don't see anything dirty/intentional about that play at all. He really didn't even make much contact with the Golden Boy. I don't know why they don't put QBs out there in pink skirts now. That was kind of pathetic.

[McLovin]

The LG gives him a shove as Suggs ran by him and as he was going towards Brady he stumbles over the leg of the LT as he's lunging for Brady.
I literally am seeing something completely different. I see no shove. I see a guy trying to hold his hand, but that would have the opposite effect of a shove.

Like I said, sure, it might not have been dirty. If not though, it was at least stupid. The ball was out of his hand before Suggs went into his dive.

[Dipper9]

So I guess now as fans we're not allowed to complain when our team gets shafted?

What's next? We all join hands and forgive Jeffrey Maier, because, after all, it was just one play and the Orioles should have been able to overcome it! :rolleyes:

The Ravens blew the game when Clayton dropped that pass, but to say we are "whining" when the officiating was clearly awful is a bit too much to take.

[MurphDogg]

I watched that entire game, and I think the refs got every call right.

Hey, I agree with you about the whining, I hate it too, but if you think that the refs got every call right in ANY NFL game, you are delusional. The Ravens had a chance to win the game and couldn't get it done. That's the bottom line. That said, Suggs doesn't draw that flag for stumbling around the quarterback if it is Derek Anderson or JaMarcus Russell. Any other quarterback that pumps his fist while waiting for the flag is rightly called out for it, as that in my opinion is taunting the defense.

[Hank Scorpio]

I literally am seeing something completely different. I see no shove. I see a guy trying to hold his hand, but that would have the opposite effect of a shove.

Like I said, sure, it might not have been dirty. If not though, it was at least stupid. The ball was out of his hand before Suggs went into his dive.

This is the key.

Brady isn't stupid. He knows how closely the officials watch this crap. He took advantage of a weak ass rule, and he was smart to do so. It's part of what makes him such a great player.

He's extremely smart.

Suggs put him in a position to take advantage of it.

[Satyr3206]

This is the key.

Brady isn't stupid. He knows how closely the officials watch this crap. He took advantage of a weak ass rule, and he was smart to do so. It's part of what makes him such a great player.

He's extremely smart.

Suggs put him in a position to take advantage of it.

I usually agree with you but not this time. I don't see it as smart to lobby for a penalty. In fact I find it childish and petty. That's why they had to put a rule in soccer to stop the dives and faking. Maybe that's the next rule they should add. After the one that says you blow a kiss at the QB and it's a sack.

[McLovin]

So I guess now as fans we're not allowed to complain when our team gets shafted?

What's next? We all join hands and forgive Jeffrey Maier, because, after all, it was just one play and the Orioles should have been able to overcome it! :rolleyes:

The Ravens blew the game when Clayton dropped that pass, but to say we are "whining" when the officiating was clearly awful is a bit too much to take.
You can whine all you want, I don't care.

The point still stands - the Ravens lost, they weren't beaten, and it wasn't taken from them. They were stupid. They didn't execute. They called the wrong plays. No one beat them - not the refs, not even the Patriots. If you want to complain about something, go ahead. But you're complaining about the wrong thing if it's the standard "the NFL hates the Ravens" argument.

I guess I'm a "take responsibility" kind of guy.

[Hank Scorpio]

I usually agree with you but not this time. I don't see it as smart to lobby for a penalty. In fact I find it childish and petty. That's why they had to put a rule in soccer to stop the dives and faking. Maybe that's the next rule they should add. After the one that says you blow a kiss at the QB and it's a sack.

Maybe they will eventually institute a rule for diving.

But as it stands right now, the rule is in place and referees are mandated to protect the quarterbacks.

Especially when their name is Tom Brady. He knows it and he takes advantage of it whenever he can, and he is smart to do so. It benefits his team and gives them a better chance to win.

Does it make him look like a sissy? Sure it does.

Does he care? No, he wins because he takes advantage of every bone you throw him.

[Dipper9]

I usually agree with you but not this time. I don't see it as smart to lobby for a penalty. In fact I find it childish and petty. That's why they had to put a rule in soccer to stop the dives and faking. Maybe that's the next rule they should add. After the one that says you blow a kiss at the QB and it's a sack.

My biggest problem with the "rule" is due to quarterbacks like Big Ben. Like him or not (and I don't) you gotta give him credit. He takes a lickin' and does not go down. In order to sack him, you have to hit him hard. So they go in hard but then he gets rid of the ball just before the hit. Penalty. Or, as has happened to us many times, we will have him in the grasp but not finish the play in fear of getting a penalty, and Ben will get away for a big play. I agree that the QBs are the money makers for the NFL, but these rules are getting out of hand now.

[McLovin]

I usually agree with you but not this time. I don't see it as smart to lobby for a penalty. In fact I find it childish and petty. That's why they had to put a rule in soccer to stop the dives and faking. Maybe that's the next rule they should add. After the one that says you blow a kiss at the QB and it's a sack.
I kind of agree. It's not my style. If I'm a Patriots fan though, I guess I'm happy.

Net/net - Brady smart, Suggs not so much.

[Satyr3206]

You can whine all you want, I don't care.

The point still stands - the Ravens lost, they weren't beaten, and it wasn't taken from them. They were stupid. They didn't execute. They called the wrong plays. No one beat them - not the refs, not even the Patriots. If you want to complain about something, go ahead. But you're complaining about the wrong thing if it's the standard "the NFL hates the Ravens" argument.

I guess I'm a "take responsibility" kind of guy.

I agree that the Ravens made to many mistakes. And I don't subscribe to the NFL hates the Ravens theory. But I also think the Refs and the rules comittee should be accountable too. Aren't they professionals too?

[Dipper9]

You can whine all you want, I don't care.

The point still stands - the Ravens lost, they weren't beaten, and it wasn't taken from them. They were stupid. They didn't execute. They called the wrong plays. No one beat them - not the refs, not even the Patriots. If you want to complain about something, go ahead. But you're complaining about the wrong thing if it's the standard "the NFL hates the Ravens" argument.

I guess I'm a "take responsibility" kind of guy.

Go back and read Ray's rant. Numerous times he says the calls did not cost us the game. However, wrong is wrong, and we got the bad calls many times yesterday. Hell, I had my Steeler friend from Houston texting me the whole game saying how bad the officiating was, and he HATES the "rat birds" as he calls us.

[McLovin]

But I also think the Refs and the rules comittee should be accountable too. Aren't they professionals too?
Sure, they might get a talking-to. From the Ravens perspective, it's got to be "Don't do the crime if you ain't got the time". This is not the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd time Suggs has done this.

[Mackus]

I usually agree with you but not this time. I don't see it as smart to lobby for a penalty. In fact I find it childish and petty. That's why they had to put a rule in soccer to stop the dives and faking. Maybe that's the next rule they should add. After the one that says you blow a kiss at the QB and it's a sack.Nah, you're wrong here. Begging for a call isn't what he did. He pointed to the ref to make sure he saw the penalty.

Players ask for flags all the time. How often do you see a defender point at an offensive lineman to indicate he's committed a false start? A receiver calling for a pass interference penalty? A coach signaling to an official that his player was held?

Its not petty to try and get the refs to see a penalty that you think was just committed.

[Satyr3206]

Nah, you're wrong here. Begging for a call isn't what he did. He pointed to the ref to make sure he saw the penalty.

Players ask for flags all the time. How often do you see a defender point at an offensive lineman to indicate he's committed a false start? A receiver calling for a pass interference penalty? A coach signaling to an official that his player was held?

Its not petty to try and get the refs to see a penalty that you think was just committed.

We just look at it differently. When I played I might say something to the Ref when the play was over but I never jumped up and down and pointed. I just think it's juvenile. JMO.

[Dipper9]

Nah, you're wrong here. Begging for a call isn't what he did. He pointed to the ref to make sure he saw the penalty.

Players ask for flags all the time. How often do you see a defender point at an offensive lineman to indicate he's committed a false start? A receiver calling for a pass interference penalty? A coach signaling to an official that his player was held?

Its not petty to try and get the refs to see a penalty that you think was just committed.

How many of them then walk up to the opposition and say "that was a cheap one" like Brady did to the Ravens?

[Avsfan]

The play where Gaither got hurt was a blatant non call as well....Flacco had released the ball...the defender took two steps and hit him.

[Sport Foo]

I think the point here to the complaining about the calls were pretty valid. The call against Ngata was roughing and it gets called 50% of the time, however as they said after the game, when its Brady the number goes up to 100%. Ngata was turning away from the play as he came down, and his hand was up to block the pass...Brady's throwing motion carried him through and into Ngatas hand. The contact was because of both players, however that gets called a bit. I didnt have an issue with this call as much as the Suggs call. As they said on NFL network the Suggs penalty was not one and the rules state that as well. The contact in the "Brady Rule" must be intentional and the player making the contact must make it on his own. In this situation he was off balance and was coming off a block, you can tell Suggs was heading for the chest when he started to fall, and I am not sure but it most likely was because the lineman was trying to drive him down and outside.

Those were roughing it happens but the point was in all honestly they were very ticky tack. The true complaints were the ones you will hear from Reed and Harbaugh. These are the complaints about the spotting of the football. It has been brought up in a few spots about the spot of the McGahee 4th down run, that was spotted a few feet behind were the ball landed. His knee touched, but his body was close to lateral to the field, therefor the ball had to be further than the knee was and it was obvious. However the refs spotted the knee, and Harbaugh was visibly upset. Im sure he didnt challenge because it still would have been close to a first down, but at least it would have been a chance.

The Patriots 4th down debacle on the fake kick will cost Ron Winters and his crew a shot at the Super Bowl, that was a debacle and the referees have to make a concrete call. The referee throwing the flag was also the referee that was supposed to spot the catch out of bounds and did not, so the Ravens had to burn a timeout and challenge just to find out if he made the first down. There were two other horrible spots in the game that have been pointed out and all this lead up to Harbaurgh getting a penalty on the PI call against Carr.

I think all in all you see alot of this when teams play the Patriots and you hear former players on NFL shows saying that its talked about alot in the locker rooms, then there is an issue. Yes the Ravens blew alot of things on their own, but the Pats got some help.

[McLovin]

Not saying it was 100% definitely taken from them, but if you don't think that the flow of the game was impacted negatively against the Ravens because of the 2 roughing the passer calls, that call on Carr when Harbaugh went nuts, and numerous spots, then you are just kidding yourself and looking to support whatever argument you're trying to make here.

I absolutely can't stand when people say, "well yeah, there were some calls but in the end you lost the game yourself." That's why they have rules! There is a reason there are rules! There is a reason there are referees! To get calls right! To ensure the game is called fairly. That game was not called fairly.

How about the bogus hands to the face the refs called against the Pats? Or the minor bump to Flacco's head on the roughing the passer? Or the call on the illegal shift on the fake field goal (he was set in time)?



When the Ravens practice in Westminster, they bring refs to the practice? Why is that? Because the refs are a part of the game. It is common knowledge that when you play a game in the NFL, that the refs are a part of the game, and that you play the game within the rules. When those rules are called incorrectly and taken out of context, you change the complexion of the game.

Do they let the defenders hit the QB's in practice?



So yes, Carr shouldn't have fumbled...Flacco shouldn't have thrown that pick.

Oh, and the play calling was horrible. And Flacco threw a pick at the worst time. And Clayton dropped a touchdown in the final 2 minutes. And Clayton dropped a 4th and 2 pass. And they couldn't move 1 yard on a 3rd and 1 and a 4th and 1. And the all-world D allowed 5 long drives. Etc.



Let me ask you this...Say Ravens play the Bengals next week, it's 20-20 in the 4th quarter with 2 seconds left, Ravens going in on the 45 yard line. Hauschka missed a 30 yard FG in the first quarter.

Flacco goes back to pass, finds Mason wide open in the back of the endzone...the CB finds Mason, tackles him while the ball is in the air, and it falls incomplete. No one else was around the play. No flag is called.

So, did the Ravens beat themselves since Hauscka missed the kick? Or did the ref impact the game and lose the game for us?
Great analogy - since there were so many no-calls yesterday. And if it's 20-20 with 2 seconds left, and the refs blow the game on a missed pass interference call - I'd say the horrible play calling would be the thing that lost the game, since a field goal would do...:laughlol:

[Why Not?]

I don't think the officiating was the key to the game. It comes down to the Ravens falling just short on their last drive. I think any additional analysis is overkill. It was really a great game between two outstanding teams.

I noticed early in the game that the ball spots were consistently generous whenever the play ended around the first-down marker. Honestly, I was sort of digging it. It was like the refs figured if you get near the marker, give the guy and extra yard and save the time of bringing out the chains. It was keeping the game moving.

[ChaosLex]

Judging by the comments, most Pats fans feel Suggs should be suspended for "trying" to take out Brady's knee.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/10/05/harrison-says-brady-knew-the-jab-was-coming/

[Fist Bump]

Great analogy - since there were so many no-calls yesterday. And if it's 20-20 with 2 seconds left, and the refs blow the game on a missed pass interference call - I'd say the horrible play calling would be the thing that lost the game, since a field goal would do...:laughlol:

A field goal when they have it at the 45 yd line? Not impossible but a pretty tough one to make.

[McLovin]

A field goal when they have it at the 45 yd line? Not impossible but a pretty tough one to make.
In our imaginary scenario, the wind was at their backs and Hauschka made a 62 yarder with ease earlier in the game.

[BaltimoreTerp]

There's a lot of overreaction on both sides of the argument in this thread.

Calls made by officials have exactly the same effect as plays made by the players when it comes to the outcome of a game. So no, the calls didn't cost or give away the game, but they had as much of an impact as a fumbled kick-off at the beginning or a dropped pass at the end or any big play in-between.

Anyone who says that bad calls by the official were what cost the team the game is wrong. Anyone that says that the calls weren't the issue and aren't worth complaining about is wrong.

[Tank]

So I guess now as fans we're not allowed to complain when our team gets shafted?

What's next? We all join hands and forgive Jeffrey Maier, because, after all, it was just one play and the Orioles should have been able to overcome it! :rolleyes:

The Ravens blew the game when Clayton dropped that pass, but to say we are "whining" when the officiating was clearly awful is a bit too much to take.

I agree. Absolutely, the Ravens lost the game. Clayton dropped those two passes, the play calling was bad (not running McClain on 3-2, 4-1), and Carr fumbling the opening kickoff were the main reason we lost. But I still feel like the officiating was terrible in the game. I disagree with the Suggs roughing the passer call, he was stumbling and barely touched Brady's legs. The one on Ngata... ok sure. The illegal contact call was BS, Welker clearly pushed off. And on that fake field goal attempt theres no way that was a first down. Although I agree with McLovin that the illegal formation shouldn't have been called.

[ccbird]

McLovin has so many bad takes in this thread it's funny. I seriously think he's trying to be the Preston of the Ravens board. Hell, even Preston, who never takes a chance to get Raven's fans hot under the collar, said the officiating was horrible and not balanced. My favorite is saying Harbaugh deserved the flag when the only thing you could here him say was: " That was a BS call". Now, tell me how you come to the conclusion at home that a flag was justified when that's the only thing you saw or heard. That's a line a football ref hears every single week from coaches whether it's HS, College, NFL, or even some youth levels .

[McLovin]

McLovin has so many bad takes in this thread it's funny. I seriously think he's trying to be the Preston of the Ravens board. Hell, even Preston, who never takes a chance to get Raven's fans hot under the collar, said the officiating was horrible and not balanced. My favorite is saying Harbaugh deserved the flag when the only thing you could here him say was: " That was a BS call". Now, tell me how you come to the conclusion at home that a flag was justified when that's the only thing you saw or heard. That's a line a football ref hears every single week from coaches whether it's HS, College, NFL, or even some youth levels .
Awesome argument ccbird. Great contribution there.

[Birds of B'more]

McLovin has so many bad takes in this thread it's funny. I seriously think he's trying to be the Preston of the Ravens board. Hell, even Preston, who never takes a chance to get Raven's fans hot under the collar, said the officiating was horrible and not balanced. My favorite is saying Harbaugh deserved the flag when the only thing you could here him say was: " That was a BS call". Now, tell me how you come to the conclusion at home that a flag was justified when that's the only thing you saw or heard. That's a line a football ref hears every single week from coaches whether it's HS, College, NFL, or even some youth levels .

That one really irritated me. How many times have we watched old NFL Films highlights of coaches going ballistic at referees, where every other word is bleeped out, and nary a flag is thrown? They could do an entire segment of just that stuff each week on Inside the NFL. The tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist in me says the only reason a flag was thrown was because CBS's field mics just happened to be open and picked Harbaugh up, causing a network exec to radio to the official and demand a penalty in hopes that it would send a message to other coaches to not swear and keep the FCC off CBS's back. But obviously there is no way that happened. Most likely, the referee that threw it was either in a bad mood that day, stressed out over some aspect of his life, or is just too thin-skinned to be in that line of work.

[ccbird]

Awesome argument ccbird. Great contribution there.

-Ray "whined" and it became a national story and guess what, the majority of what I have read and heard from the national media agreed with Ray.

- You could ask the refs who worked the game if they got every call right yesterday and they'll probably admit they didn't. Yet you seem to think they did. :rolleyestf:

- Harbaugh yelling at the ref that it's a BS call is an embarrassing and undiciplined act. I guess every football coach at every level in America is undiciplined and embarrassing.:rolleyestf:


I get that you were trying to make a point. Your first paragraph in your first post was correct. The Ravens didn't play good football and have themselves to blame for the loss. However, you didn't need to proceed with the over the top criticism and hyperbole in the rest of your post.

[xKHx]

-Ray "whined" and it became a national story and guess what the majority of what I have read and heard from the national media agreed with Ray.

- You could ask the refs who worked the game to their face if they got every call right yesterday and they'll probably admit they didn't. Yet you seem to think they got every one right. :rolleyestf:

- Harbaugh yelling at the ref that it's a BS call is an embarrassing and undiciplined act. I guess every football coach at every level in America is undiciplined and embarrassing.:rolleyestf:


I get that you were trying to make a point. Your first paragraph in your post was correct. The Ravens didn't play good football and have themselves to blame for the loss. However, you didn't need to proceed in the rest of your post with over the top hyperbole.

I pretty much agree with everything you said here. We yell at the refs after every missed call/call made we don't agree with in high school and we have yet to get a penalty. Every school does it I really hope this isn't a precedent where they start calling these types of calls.

[snatch311]

This is the Ravens. We get at least 1 Horrible Screwjob per season, so if this is the one, at least it's over with.

[Stevo5278]

I usually agree with you but not this time. I don't see it as smart to lobby for a penalty. In fact I find it childish and petty.

Whining and begging with the officials must be part of the Boston sports culture. Brady's lobbying for penalties reminds me of Kevin Youkilis when he stares down the ump on a called strike as if to say, "How dare you! I would never take a pitch if it was in the zone!"

[BaltimoreTerp]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4537139

No fines for comments.

[The Wedge]

Which speaks volumes.

Yeah it does. That's as close to a mea culpa as they'll probably get.

[DuffMan]

I'm thinking it was a good thing that I was out of town and unable to watch this game. Whew.

[obannon35]

The Ravens lost that game. The refs didn't beat them. Heck, I'm not sure the Patriots beat them. The Ravens lost that game, period.

I just don't understand all of the whining. It's a national story. It's embarrassing to our city and to our fanbase.

I watched that entire game, and I think the refs got every call right. All three roughing the passer calls (yes, including Flacco's) were legit. They were sloppy, undisciplined plays by the defender's.

That motion penalty on the fake FG was a gift too BTW. It looked like he stopped just fine on the replay. It could have easily been overlooked.

And Harbaugh deserved the penalty he got. Yet another embarrassing and undisciplined act.

The Ravens lost that game. No one beat them. Quit whining, it's unbecoming.

The refs didn't beat the Ravens I agree, but to say that all the calls were correct is way off base.

The Suggs roughing call was horrible, he barely if at all made contact with Brady. Bad call

The Carr penalty was awful, the receiver pushed off of him, the same thing and same play that Mason was later flagged for. Bad call

The play where Gaither was hurt was the most obvious roughing the passer penalty in the game and wasn't called. Bad call

These calls all influenced the game, did it cost us the game?? Not a chance, we did enough to beat ourselves. To say that all the calls were correct is just way off base, as video just doesn't lie. Feel free to re-evaluate and change your opinion, I won't hold it against you forever.:clap3:

[primetime]

The fact the Ray and Reed didn't get fined is very telling. The NFL KNOWS the officials had a bad, 1-sided game and this is the only way they can acknowledge it without directly calling out the officiating crew.

Here's a question, is there any chance the competition commitee looks into tweaking the QB protection rules to make the similar to the kicker protection rules? ie; there could still be roughing the passer but they could add in "running into the passer". So the Suggs play, for example, would only be a 5 yd penalty and not an automatic first down?

I understand that QBs are the marquee players, they make the most money and the league loves scoring but the scales have tipped too far to the offense in recent years, with the rule changes and "points of emphasis".

[Dipper9]

Yeah it does. That's as close to a mea culpa as they'll probably get.

And proves that we, as fans anyway, are correct to ***** about the bad officiating!

[Birds of B'more]

Yeah it does. That's as close to a mea culpa as they'll probably get.

Problem is, the league won't do anything more about it than try to sweep it under the rug. In fact, I bet part of the reason they didn't fine anyone is because they didn't want to draw further attention to it. The quality of officiating in the NFL has deteriorated, IMO. But I don't think the referees are the primary problem. The big problem is all of these knee-jerk rules the league institutes because of extremely isolated incidents. One time in the long history of the NFL a star QB missed a season because a defender couldn't halt his momentum and rolled into his lower leg causing an injury, and all of a sudden the league has to make a rule that is going to change the flow of future games and possibly affect the outcome? Ridiculous.

Sammy Baugh
Johnny Unitas
Joe Namath
Terry Bradshaw
Joe Montana
Dan Marino
John Elway
Jim Kelly

That's just a short list off the top of my head of QBs who had Hall of Fame careers without needing to be coddled. Think some of those guys are peeved that they didn't get to play during this era of ridiculous rules? I bet the record books would look a lot different today if they did. Guys like Brett Favre and Peyton Manning would have to play 10 more years before they'd break some of the career records that would have been set.

Back to the referees. If there is one big criticism that I have of them, it is that they are not decisive enough nowadays. Too often they hesitate to make a call and allow themselves to be influenced by the other officials or even players and coaches. Just call what you saw immediately and stand by it...chances are your first impression is correct. Don't be so wishy washy. And most of all, don't disrupt the flow of the game so you and the other refs, who didn't have as good a view as you did anyway, can huddle up and talk about it for a couple minutes. Make the damn call and let's move on!

[Satyr3206]

Try reading between the lines.

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/blog/2009/10/nfl_responds_to_ravens_concerns.html

[xKHx]

I wonder if Mclovin still thinks we are whining?

[McLovin]

I wonder if Mclovin still thinks we are whining?
I still feel that:

- The Ravens lost the game. They were not beaten. They were not hosed. The didn't execute well enough at the right times to win the game. They lost the turnover battle, fumbled the opening kickoff, threw an interception in the red zone, dropped passes, missed tackles, coached poorly, and played undisciplined. And they still almost won.

- The roughing the passer calls were legit. Whether they should have been called or not is not a matter of debate for me. It's up to the defender to be smart about it. What Ngata and Suggs did is against the rules. It seems obvious to everyone in the world this week that Brady at home gets special treatment. I don't think this is something that the world just realized this week.

- The motion penalty on NE was a gift to the Ravens, and stopped a TD drive.

- There were ticky tack calls made on NE as well.

- Harbaugh deserved the penalty. He was in the refs ear, and popped his head forward in a barking motion into the refs ear while emphasizing the 'bull' in 'bullspit'.

- If the spots were so horrible, a challenge should have been made.

I will revise my opinion on whether the refs "got all the calls right". The roughing calls that were made followed the letter of the law. As they say though, holding could be called on 90% of every down. Some discretion needs to be had. This doesn't excuse the fact that the Ravens of all teams - the woebegone, persecuted, eternally scorned, forever dissed, and constantly cheated Ravens - should know better.

I also think the Ravens handled themselves correctly and with class while avoiding controversy after they cooled down.

[obannon35]

I still feel that:

- The Ravens lost the game. They were not beaten. They were not hosed. The didn't execute well enough at the right times to win the game. They lost the turnover battle, fumbled the opening kickoff, threw an interception in the red zone, dropped passes, missed tackles, coached poorly, and played undisciplined. And they still almost won.

- The roughing the passer calls were legit. Whether they should have been called or not is not a matter of debate for me. It's up to the defender to be smart about it. What Ngata and Suggs did is against the rules. It seems obvious to everyone in the world this week that Brady at home gets special treatment. I don't think this is something that the world just realized this week.

- The motion penalty on NE was a gift to the Ravens, and stopped a TD drive.

- There were ticky tack calls made on NE as well.

- Harbaugh deserved the penalty. He was in the refs ear, and popped his head forward in a barking motion into the refs ear while emphasizing the 'bull' in 'bullspit'.

- If the spots were so horrible, a challenge should have been made.

I will revise my opinion on whether the refs "got all the calls right". The roughing calls that were made followed the letter of the law. As they say though, holding could be called on 90% of every down. Some discretion needs to be had. This doesn't excuse the fact that the Ravens of all teams - the woebegone, persecuted, eternally scorned, forever dissed, and constantly cheated Ravens - should know better.

I also think the Ravens handled themselves correctly and with class while avoiding controversy after they cooled down.



Well the you're right the calls didn't cost us the game, but as far as the officiating goes, you're wrong, and it's not really close......

[tvz1997]

I was fairly amused to hear McNabb commenting on the hit that broke his ribs:


"He did (come in late), but there's nothing you can do about it at this point," McNabb said. "Maybe I should have jumped up like Tom Brady did (last Sunday vs. the Ravens) and asked for the flag. It's over with. That was weeks ago ... I won't be the last it happens to."

[Tony-OH]

-Ray "whined" and it became a national story and guess what, the majority of what I have read and heard from the national media agreed with Ray.

- You could ask the refs who worked the game if they got every call right yesterday and they'll probably admit they didn't. Yet you seem to think they did. :rolleyestf:

- Harbaugh yelling at the ref that it's a BS call is an embarrassing and undiciplined act. I guess every football coach at every level in America is undiciplined and embarrassing.:rolleyestf:


I get that you were trying to make a point. Your first paragraph in your first post was correct. The Ravens didn't play good football and have themselves to blame for the loss. However, you didn't need to proceed with the over the top criticism and hyperbole in the rest of your post.

Cary is good dude, but I have no idea where he's coming up with this stuff as well. Suggs' play was not intentional and the call on Harbaugh was in fact "BS."

I don't think the refs cost us the game, but they certainly where skewwed towards the Patriots.

[Hank Scorpio]

Cary is good dude, but I have no idea where he's coming up with this stuff as well. Suggs' play was not intentional and the call on Harbaugh was in fact "BS."

I don't think the refs cost us the game, but they certainly where skewwed towards the Patriots.

Guys, I have heard coaches say the most astonishingly horrible things to side judges over the last 9 years and not get flagged for it. I hear it every single solitary game, and to be honest, Harbaugh takes it extremely lightly on them comparatively speaking.

I was surprised to see that flag. There's reason to be annoyed with that one.

[VTmook213]

I still feel that:

- The Ravens lost the game. They were not beaten. They were not hosed. The didn't execute well enough at the right times to win the game. They lost the turnover battle, fumbled the opening kickoff, threw an interception in the red zone, dropped passes, missed tackles, coached poorly, and played undisciplined. And they still almost won.
Why do you think they were coached poorly?

Why do you think they played undisciplined? Because there were several questionable penalties called on them? Not only did most of the media agree with this sentiment, but apparently the NFL did, too (see: lack of fine).

They had 3 big mistakes that ultimately cost them the game.
1) Fumble on the opening kickoff - this cost them 3 points (FG at the end would've tied it, were it not for this play)
2) Flacco's interception right before half-time. They were in FG range and had plenty of time to try for a TD. This cost them at least 3 points (again, FG at the end would've tied it)
3) Clayton's drop - obviously gets them a first down. No guarantee they would've scored, but still. That's a ball that should've been caught.

So you think the defense played poorly (lack of tackles), the offense played poorly (dropped balls), the coaching was terrible (?), and the players were undisciplined and not focused ... and yet we had a great chance to win the game (and probably should have) at the end. Geez, can't imagine what the Ravens can do on a day where they actually play well!


- The roughing the passer calls were legit. Whether they should have been called or not is not a matter of debate for me. It's up to the defender to be smart about it. What Ngata and Suggs did is against the rules. It seems obvious to everyone in the world this week that Brady at home gets special treatment. I don't think this is something that the world just realized this week.
So just because it should be obvious that Brady gets special treatment, this means people can't complain about said treatment? And the fact that you admit it's special treatment should tell you that the calls were NOT, in fact, legit. Or maybe listening to the media would tell you that. Or maybe the fact that the NFL didn't fine the Ravens players for complaining about reffing - when's the last time you saw that?!

But even if you ignore the roughing the passer penalties (sorry, the Suggs one was ridiculous. He barely touched Brady. That should NOT have been a penalty), I think the pass interference calls were pretty egregious as well. Not just the one that was called (I think) on Carr against Welker - that coverage was so bad, there's no way he could've interfered! - but also the one that wasn't called against Clayton in the endzone in the last few minutes. Defensive back holding a receivers arm down so he can only catch the ball with one? Apparently that's allowed now!




- The motion penalty on NE was a gift to the Ravens, and stopped a TD drive.

Perhaps, but I'd argue he was knocked out before the first down marker. In fact, watching the replays, it very much shows he was. Really, there should've been no FG there.



- There were ticky tack calls made on NE as well.
Like what? Name one.


- Harbaugh deserved the penalty. He was in the refs ear, and popped his head forward in a barking motion into the refs ear while emphasizing the 'bull' in 'bullspit'.
First of all, wasn't he given that penalty for walking onto the field?
Second, if so, don't they usually give benches a warning first before penalizing them? That's always the way I've seen it.
Third, if it really was for him cursing ... when have you ever, ever, EVER seen a head coach get flagged for yelling at the refs? Really? I can't even believe you're arguing this! They show highlight reels of coaches chewing out refs all the time, and yet there's no flags thrown.

I viewed that penalty in the same light as a baseball manager getting himself thrown out of a game after a terrible call - good for Harbaugh for standing up for his team and his players.



- If the spots were so horrible, a challenge should have been made.
In one case, it was. It was still upheld. In the rest ... they only get 2 (maybe 3) challenges all game. Are you telling me the Ravens should have been forced to use all of them on blown spots by the refs? C'mon, that's an asinine argument. The refs should get the calls correct the first time; the Ravens should not be forced to correct their mistakes for them.



_________

All that being said about whether the officiating was good or not, what I am taking away from this game is that even when calls/plays don't go the Ravens way, they had the opportunity at the end of the game to beat a good NE team on the road. It's disappointing they lost, but I was glad they didn't just fade away or let the refs' calls get the better of them mentally like they would've allowed in previous seasons.

[nemO821]

The pass interfernce call on Carr you can thank the Colts and Bill Polian for.

[ChaosLex]

Brady is used to a crowd being around him; he just doesn't like them near his knees. But he admitted Wednesday that some of the calls he received against the Ravens were "fortunate."

"I think we were on the fortunate end of a few [calls] last week. Other times, we haven't been. In the end, they all probably even out."

Brady pointed out that he doesn't make the rules, but he's happy to ask for a call if it helps his team win a game.

"I want the penalty called. I want 15 yards. I don't care if they hit me or not. That's an advantage for our offense. You just want to make sure the refs . . . I go hug the refs before the game, and ask about his kids and stuff like that. I'm trying to get him on our side."

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/10/07/brady-admits-calls-last-week-were-fortunate/

[JohnnyK27]

Brady pointed out that he doesn't make the rules, but he's happy to ask for a call if it helps his team win a game.

"I want the penalty called. I want 15 yards. I don't care if they hit me or not. That's an advantage for our offense. You just want to make sure the refs . . . I go hug the refs before the game, and ask about his kids and stuff like that. I'm trying to get him on our side."


He's a panzy & begging for flags should be a penalty.

[McLovin]

In one case, it was. It was still upheld. In the rest ... they only get 2 (maybe 3) challenges all game. Are you telling me the Ravens should have been forced to use all of them on blown spots by the refs? C'mon, that's an asinine argument.
OK, I was enjoying your well thought out post, until the part that you had to insult me and call my argument asinine. Awesome. Appreciate that.

[McLovin]

Guys, I have heard coaches say the most astonishingly horrible things to side judges over the last 9 years and not get flagged for it. I hear it every single solitary game, and to be honest, Harbaugh takes it extremely lightly on them comparatively speaking.

I was surprised to see that flag. There's reason to be annoyed with that one.
Well, we're all making assumptions as well. I don't know what should be tolerated and what shouldn't. None of us know what else was said or done outside of what was on TV. Harbaugh has been quiet on the matter, so who knows.

[BaltimoreTerp]

He's a panzy & begging for flags should be a penalty.

I don't know about a penalty, but...

Hey Tom, you know how everyone took Rodney Harrison's "take off the skirt" comment so seriously, even after he admitted it was basically a joke towards you? This is why.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Well, we're all making assumptions as well. I don't know what should be tolerated and what shouldn't. None of us know what else was said or done outside of what was on TV. Harbaugh has been quiet on the matter, so who knows.

Watch an NFL Films special showing Jon Gruden on the sidelines. Anything that level or below should not be called :laughlol:

[Hank Scorpio]

He's a panzy & begging for flags should be a penalty.

Meh, I disagree.

He's smart to take advantage of a bad rule.

[ChaosLex]

Meh, I disagree.

He's smart to take advantage of a bad rule.

Can't he be both? :wedge:

[VTmook213]

OK, I was enjoying your well thought out post, until the part that you had to insult me and call my argument asinine. Awesome. Appreciate that.

I didn't insult you. I do, however, think that the argument that it's OK for the refs to make bad calls because the Ravens have the ability to challenge them is asinine. If you'd prefer me to use other words in the future like "silly" I can.

And I'm still waiting to hear what ticky tacky calls were made on NE. :confused:

edit: You negative repped me for that, too!? Good grief man, lighten up.



He's a panzy & begging for flags should be a penalty.
Nah, all players do that. Even Ravens players do it. 8 out of 10 times when there's touching downfield and the ball isn't caught, the WR gets up and looks at the ref, telling him it was pass interference. That doesn't, however, mean that the opposing fans can't complain when the team they're playing are blatantly campaigning for calls and then having the refs nod at them and throw the flag.

It's not the players' fault; it's the refs' fault for allowing themselves to be swayed.

[nemO821]

I didn't insult you. I do, however, think that the argument that it's OK for the refs to make bad calls because the Ravens have the ability to challenge them is asinine. If you'd prefer me to use other words in the future like "silly" I can.

And I'm still waiting to hear what ticky tacky calls were made on NE. :confused:

edit: You negative repped me for that, too!? Good grief man, lighten up.



Nah, all players do that. Even Ravens players do it. 8 out of 10 times there's touching downfield and the ball isn't caught, the WR gets up and looks at the ref, telling him it was pass interference. That doesn't, however, mean that the opposing fans can't complain when the team they're playing are blatantly campaining for calls and then having the refs nod at them and throw the flag.

It's not the players' fault; it's the refs' fault for allowing themselves to be swayed.

The roughing the passer call against Wright. Also you could go back to the Bills game where he hit Edwards above his waist and was called for hitting the QB below the knees. And he still got fined for it.

[Birds of B'more]

He's a panzy & begging for flags should be a penalty.

Back in the day, punters used to do horrible acting jobs looking for a roughing the kicker call anytime a player came within a foot of them. One year the NFL decided to make that sort of thing an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty and the problem went away, for the most part. Time to do the same for QB's before the AFA renames the Oscars into the Brady's.

[VTmook213]

The roughing the passer call against Wright.
I think he pretty squarely bopped Flacco in the helmet; I think that was a less egregious call than the rest.

[BaltimoreTerp]

OK, I was enjoying your well thought out post, until the part that you had to insult me and call my argument asinine. Awesome. Appreciate that.

I think you are starting to get out of line here, man. He made a pretty good argument against what you said, didn't insult you at all, and if he thinks your argument is so poor that it enters "asinine" territory, well, based on most responses in here he's likely not the only one.

You obviously seem set in your belief here, so argue it. It doesn't look good when you go for the strawman argument instead.

[nemO821]

I think he pretty squarely bopped Flacco in the helmet; I think that was a less egregious call than the rest.

Really? I mean really? How was that any worse the Ngata's?:confused:

[xKHx]

Really? I mean really? How was that any worse the Ngata's?:confused:

He was pushing his up face in the air no contact with the helmet, up under his chin it was an easy call.

[GoldGlove21]

The Ravens fumbled the opening punt which set the Patriots up for a score. They didn't get nearly enough pressure on Brady even though they seemed to blitz often. They threw the ball something like 47 times compared to running it only 17 times. Rice was averaging almost 10 yards a carry, but we went away from the run. The Flacco pick looked like miscommunication between the route the receiver was running and the route Flacco thought he should have ran. Even with all the complaining about the officiating, if Clayton catches that pass at the 9 we have three chances at the end zone to win the game.

While I think the refs cost us a win in a game that we played below our ability, if we take away two mistakes (Flacco pick, fumble) we probably win that game 27-20. I think the argument by some is compounded by the fact that this happen to us when we played the Patriots at home as well. Some teams in the NFL do seem to get calls other teams do not.

On the flip side, hands to the face is hands to the face. The refs are going to call that one everytime. The Suggs attempt on Brady's knees seemed kind of shady to me, but he could have been pushed. He was really late on that one. Flacco was hit in the arm by a players helmet and that looked like it should have been called. The league changed these rules and it puts the refs in uncomfortable situations on when to interpret the rule. It is tought to make calls by interpreting malice.

The fake punt play was of particular interest to me, because that flag seemed to come very late. It was like the refs were fooled and didn't know what to call. When there is a neutral zone infraction or an actual offsides and the play is run before the whistle blows it dead, can't the team gaining from the penalty choose to decline it for a lose of down? I think the guy was short and the Ravens should have been able to decline that penalty and obtain the ball, but I am not sure of the leagues rules in those situations.

While I see McLovin's point, complaining is what we do when the refs and not the players seem to sway the outcome of the game substantially. If the Patriots do not score 13 points off of the three plays mentioned above, then I doubt we complain as fans. The refs wanted to make sure that they helped us give that game away. The Ravens should have beaten the Patriots by 10 points or more on Sunday.

[JohnnyK27]

The fake punt play was of particular interest to me, because that flag seemed to come very late. It was like the refs were fooled and didn't know what to call. When there is a neutral zone infraction or an actual offsides and the play is run before the whistle blows it dead, can't the team gaining from the penalty choose to decline it for a lose of down? I think the guy was short and the Ravens should have been able to decline that penalty and obtain the ball, but I am not sure of the leagues rules in those situations.


I believe they called illegal shift. In that call the play goes on & the defense gets the benefit of the result of the play or the penalty should the play result in a 1st down.

What the Officials said is that the Pats got enough for the 1st down. So the Ravens couldnt decline the penalty.

The officials couldnt seem to get the call right even with replay.

[JohnnyK27]

Nah, all players do that. Even Ravens players do it. 8 out of 10 times when there's touching downfield and the ball isn't caught, the WR gets up and looks at the ref, telling him it was pass interference. That doesn't, however, mean that the opposing fans can't complain when the team they're playing are blatantly campaigning for calls and then having the refs nod at them and throw the flag.

It's not the players' fault; it's the refs' fault for allowing themselves to be swayed.




Birds Of Baltimore....... Back in the day, punters used to do horrible acting jobs looking for a roughing the kicker call anytime a player came within a foot of them. One year the NFL decided to make that sort of thing an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty and the problem went away, for the most part. Time to do the same for QB's before the AFA renames the Oscars into the Brady's.

This is exactly my point! The lobbying for calls are really a sign of poor sportsmanship. I believe your on to something Birds ...It could help fix the problem. Watching players working the refs is a a part of the game thats not needed.

Two of the biggest culprits are Brady & Roeisberger. I've watch the Steelers play when they dont play the same time as the Ravens & it seems like Ben is always asking for the Pass interference flags..... Shut up & play!


Thats the nice thing about ref'ing youth football .... We can actually tell them to do so.:D;)

[McLovin]

Why do you think they were coached poorly?
Because they passed too much. Because they made stupid decisions throughout the game. Like calling for Rice to run the very next play after a 50 yard run (he was gassed). Like waiting until the playclock was down to 4 seconds before calling a timeout to end the first half. Stuff like that.


Why do you think they played undisciplined? Because there were several questionable penalties called on them? Not only did most of the media agree with this sentiment, but apparently the NFL did, too (see: lack of fine).
The Ravens are the maligned team of the league when it comes to playing too tuff. In both cases, the roughing penalties could have been avoided. It sucks, and I'm not saying it's right. That's just the way it is. The hit zone for a QB is from the shoulders to above the knees. It's really that simple.



So you think the defense played poorly (lack of tackles), the offense played poorly (dropped balls), the coaching was terrible (?), and the players were undisciplined and not focused ... and yet we had a great chance to win the game (and probably should have) at the end. Geez, can't imagine what the Ravens can do on a day where they actually play well!
Um, not sure I have disagreed with any of that. I've said from the beginning that the Patriots did not beat the Ravens. They are a good team.



So just because it should be obvious that Brady gets special treatment, this means people can't complain about said treatment? And the fact that you admit it's special treatment should tell you that the calls were NOT, in fact, legit. Or maybe listening to the media would tell you that. Or maybe the fact that the NFL didn't fine the Ravens players for complaining about reffing - when's the last time you saw that?!

But even if you ignore the roughing the passer penalties (sorry, the Suggs one was ridiculous. He barely touched Brady.
Jerome Bettis (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jerome_bettis/10/06/bus.stops/index.html#) sums it up perfectly for me. Perfectly.


I'll say this about Terrell Suggs' questionable hit on Tom Brady: If Tom hadn't gotten his right leg out of the way, there would have been a much bigger, much nastier collision. If I were a ref, there was just enough contact, even with Tom saving his own butt, for me to make that call. It was a 50-50 play: If they hadn't flagged it, I would have understood it. They did, and I understood that.

I also understand what Ray Lewis is concerned about. The league-wide approach to handling quarterbacks is all wrong; it sends a terrible message to the rest of the NFL: the quarterback is 10 times more important than everyone else. Does Brady get any special treatment? Obviously I believe that, too. Peyton Manning as well. And that's bad for the game. But you know what? You can't blame Brady for playing within the rules and the way a game is called.


Like what? Name one.
I was sure there was a hands to the face call on Walker, but I can't find it in the game log. And the roughing on Flacco was just as much of a gift as the one on Ngata.



First of all, wasn't he given that penalty for walking onto the field?
Second, if so, don't they usually give benches a warning first before penalizing them? That's always the way I've seen it.
Third, if it really was for him cursing ... when have you ever, ever, EVER seen a head coach get flagged for yelling at the refs? Really? I can't even believe you're arguing this! They show highlight reels of coaches chewing out refs all the time, and yet there's no flags thrown.

I viewed that penalty in the same light as a baseball manager getting himself thrown out of a game after a terrible call - good for Harbaugh for standing up for his team and his players.
We're all making assumptions here.



In one case, it was. It was still upheld. In the rest ... they only get 2 (maybe 3) challenges all game. Are you telling me the Ravens should have been forced to use all of them on blown spots by the refs? C'mon, that's an asinine argument. The refs should get the calls correct the first time; the Ravens should not be forced to correct their mistakes for them.
If the Ravens thought they blew the call, yes, they have to challenge. Or just not challenge and complain about it later.

[nemO821]

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d8133c7c5/Official-Review-Week-4

Head of referees says all the calls made in the game were correct.

[Sports Guy]

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d8133c7c5/Official-Review-Week-4

Head of referees says all the calls made in the game were correct.

Of course he is going to say that.

[ChrisAF79]

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d8133c7c5/Official-Review-Week-4

Head of referees says all the calls made in the game were correct.
Well color me shocked :rolleyes:

[Miller192]

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d8133c7c5/Official-Review-Week-4

Head of referees says all the calls made in the game were correct.

No, actually he said they are judgement calls and the league will stand behind the judgement of the referee at the time.

In Winter's mind, Suggs went at Brady with forceable contact below knees. That's his judgement.

There's no right or wrong here. You've just got to live with the decision and move on.

[Hank Scorpio]

No, actually he said they are judgement calls and the league will stand behind the judgement of the referee at the time.

In Winter's mind, Suggs went at Brady with forceable contact below knees. That's his judgement.

There's no right or wrong here. You've just got to live with the decision and move on.

...and learn from it, which is something Suggs hasn't been able to do thus far in his career.

[McLovin]

...and learn from it, which is something Suggs hasn't been able to do thus far in his career.
Right. Which is part of my point. It's unfortunate, but they have to stay below the head and above the knees. If he was pushed (I don't think he was), he has to at least pretend to get out of the way.

[primetime]

Here's another observation.....last year the league eliminated the "incidental" face mask (the 5 yd penalty) and now only call the 15 yd personal foul face mask. In essence, the competition comittee left it up to the officials' descretion as to whether throw the flag or not. And one officials may view a grab and release of the face mask as a personal foul, whereas another official veiwing the same play, may keep the flag in his pocket.

So why did the competition comittee put the officials in a box and mandate that ANY contact with the QBs helmet or below the knees is a personal foul? Why is it that the officials are not afforded to use their judgement on roughing the passer personal fouls the same way they use their judgement on face mask personal fouls?

If protecting players is the concern, don't you risk injury by having your head twisted around as a runner much more than having your helmet touched as a QB?

[Satyr3206]

Here's another observation.....last year the league eliminated the "incidental" face mask (the 5 yd penalty) and now only call the 15 yd personal foul face mask. In essence, the competition comittee left it up to the officials' descretion as to whether throw the flag or not. And one officials may view a grab and release of the face mask as a personal foul, whereas another official veiwing the same play, may keep the flag in his pocket.

So why did the competition comittee put the officials in a box and mandate that ANY contact with the QBs helmet or below the knees is a personal foul? Why is it that the officials are not afforded to use their judgement on roughing the passer personal fouls the same way they use their judgement on face mask personal fouls?

If protecting players is the concern, don't you risk injury by having your head twisted around as a runner much more than having your helmet touched as a QB?

Because they want to protect the sensitive wittle QB's that whine like a 3 year old.

[primetime]

Right. Which is part of my point. It's unfortunate, but they have to stay below the head and above the knees. If he was pushed (I don't think he was), he has to at least pretend to get out of the way.

I don't see how you can look at the clip you posted of the Suggs hit and think that (A) he dove at Brady's legs intentionally or (B) had enough control over his body to get out of the way anymore than he did.

But, it's Thursday, time to move on to the Bengals. (Incidentally, their QB suffered a torn ACL and MCL on a low hit by Kimo Von Olhoffen of the Steelers and that didn't spark any rule changes. Hmmm:scratchchinhmm:

[The Wedge]

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d8133c7c5/Official-Review-Week-4

Head of referees says all the calls made in the game were correct.

And yet the league doesn't fine the numerous players who went off on the officiating. Which is usually an automatic fine for having the sheer audacity to question the officiating.

Actions speak louder than words.

[RShack]

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d8133c7c5/Official-Review-Week-4

Head of referees says all the calls made in the game were correct.
Naturally.

The thing you need to see is something we never see: The play-by-play critique they all get every week. Football in general is good about doing that. Even Div-III ref's get their video reviewed on every play every week by former NFL ref's. Very detailed, like, for example, "on this play you weren't looking in the right place" or "you were standing in the wrong place by 2 feet", etc, etc. They get corrected about a lot more stuff than just iffy calls.

[Hank Scorpio]

Word is Chris Carr has lost his job to Mr. Webb.

[McLovin]

Word is Chris Carr has lost his job to Mr. Webb.
Which job?

[Hank Scorpio]

Ah, valid question.

Kick returner.

[McLovin]

Ah, valid question.

Kick returner.
Hmm, I was hoping the other job. He was very shaky on kicks in the pre-season.

This says Webb on KO's and Carr on punts. That makes sense. Punts are harder and sure hards are required.

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/blog/2009/10/webb_to_take_kick_returns_carr_punt_returns.html

[orayole]

Because a roughing the QB penalty when the QB didn't even go to the ground is ridiculous. If they're going to call this crap they should rename the penalty to "Touching the passer".

Oh and then all the penalties against the Patriots that weren't called.

[VTmook213]

Because they passed too much. Because they made stupid decisions throughout the game. Like calling for Rice to run the very next play after a 50 yard run (he was gassed). Like waiting until the playclock was down to 4 seconds before calling a timeout to end the first half. Stuff like that.

-Passed too much: First let me say that I've been complaining about the play calling from the very first game - we have two very good, very dynamic running backs and a young quarterback. Why are we not running the ball more?

That being said, I'm not sure I would say the Ravens lost because they were poorly coached or because there was poor play calling (I think those two are different, but that's another argument for another time). Is a 47/17 split ridiculous? Yes. Were we running at will on them? Pretty much: if you remove the 50 yard scamper that Rice had, he still averaged 5.3 yards per carry. I realize that you can't just "remove" plays as they actually did happen, but if you consider it was more than twice as long as his previous high rush this season, I think it serves as more of an outlier rather than the norm. Our RBs, as a whole, averaged 4 yards a carry for the game (without the 50 yarder), and 7.1 with it. Not bad at all.

Flacco was 27/47 for 264 yards. This works out to 5.6 yards an attempt and 9.9 yards a completion. Let's break down those passes a little bit more:

- 6 of those passes were to running backs - I can't tell from the game log whether they were dump-off/safety valve type plays or screen type plays designed to take advantage of NE's aggressiveness; either way, short dump off passes to RBs are high percentage, low risk plays. These 6 passes went for 62 yards, an average of 10.3. This represents almost a quarter of the passing yards we accumulated.
- We got the ball with under 4 minutes to go at the end of the first half and proceeded to throw the ball 6 times (3 of which were to Rice), run it twice for 72 yards before turning the ball over with 1:15 to go. Can't really fault them for running a "4 minute offense."
- We got the ball with 3:32 to go at the end of the second half and proceeded to throw the ball 11 times, and run it twice for 67 yards before turning the ball over with 28 seconds to go. Can't really fault them for running a "4 minute offense."

Those three scenarios represent almost half of Flacco's attempts - either high percentage plays that are pretty similar to just running the ball (screen) or in situations where the circumstances dictated the ball be thrown in order to conserve time. If you remove those plays, the split turns out to be a much nicer 24 pass plays to 14 rush plays. Is it perfect? No. Should we still be running the ball more? Yes, absolutely. But rushing 37% of the time sounds a heck of a lot better than 27% of the time!

Also consider that on the drive we went for it on fourth down and couldn't convert, we rushed the ball 3 times for 4 yards and threw it once for 5 yards. Perhaps we should've thrown the ball there! :laughlol:

----------------
Do you consider NE to be a good defense? They are top 10 in terms of points allowed (in the sense that fewest points allowed is #1). They allow 40.9% of third downs to be converted. However, the Ravens converted 9/14 third downs, a rate of 64.3%. The league leaders in 3rd down conversions (Miami), convert at a rate of 54.1%.

This is just my opinion, and I don't even know if it's valid - but I view 3rd down conversion rate as a way of measuring, to some degree, how good of a situation you've placed your team in. It's obviously easier to convert third and short as opposed to third and long, so teams with a higher conversion rate will likely be those teams that have set themselves up (on first and second down) to succeed on third down. Now, considering that the Ravens converted their third downs at a rate that was 150% of what NE usually gives up and also at a rate that is 20% higher than what the best team in the NFL is capable of doing, maybe they didn't do such a bad job on offense after all.

We also had 23 first downs to NE's 21. Again, I don't think our offense was poorly coached, nor do I think the playcalling was really as bad as you'd make it out to be. If you think our offense was poorly coached, what do you consider NE's!?

-Stupid decisions - such a general statement, there's not even anything to reply to!

-Rice running on back to back plays: it seemed to me that they were trying to run the same play again, since it worked the first time. Teams often do this; you can say they should've taken out Rice, but had he not tripped over his own two feet (is tripping fatigue related? doubtful) and gotten a 5-10 yard gain as opposed to a 2 yard gain, nobody would be having this conversation. Running backs fall down in the backfield on a semi-frequent basis - blaming this on the coaches/fatigue is just a convenient excuse.

-Timeout at the end of the half: meh, what did you want them to do? Use both their timeouts in order to have 10-15 seconds and the majority of the field left to drive so Flacco would have to force something and end up with another turnover? Perhaps they used the timeout because they didn't like something they saw in the offense they weren't comfortable with.



The Ravens are the maligned team of the league when it comes to playing too tuff. In both cases, the roughing penalties could have been avoided. It sucks, and I'm not saying it's right. That's just the way it is. The hit zone for a QB is from the shoulders to above the knees. It's really that simple.Really? I'm pretty sure your first several posts come off completely different. You said it was embarrassing for us, as a town and as a team, to complain about the calls - and yet now you're back tracking and saying that it DOES suck and it's NOT right?



Um, not sure I have disagreed with any of that. I've said from the beginning that the Patriots did not beat the Ravens. They are a good team.
Yes, I was simply remarking on how much better the Ravens must be if they played poorly in every single phase of the game and were completely outcoached, and yet were still in a position to win.



Jerome Bettis (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jerome_bettis/10/06/bus.stops/index.html#) sums it up perfectly for me. Perfectly.
You mean when he says it's bad for the game? I agree, too.

I also understand what Ray Lewis is concerned about. The league-wide approach to handling quarterbacks is all wrong; it sends a terrible message to the rest of the NFL: the quarterback is 10 times more important than everyone else. Does Brady get any special treatment? Obviously I believe that, too. Peyton Manning as well. And that's bad for the game.

Look, I'm not faulting Brady for arguing for his side. All players do that. And it's not just confined to football; baseball players, tennis players, basketball players, soccer players, etc all do it. That doesn't mean that we, as fans, can't complain because someone is campaigning for calls and then gets them because they receive special treatment (which you agreed with).




I was sure there was a hands to the face call on Walker, but I can't find it in the game log. And the roughing on Flacco was just as much of a gift as the one on Ngata. We can agree to disagree on the roughing the passer on Flacco being just as bad as the one called on Ngata. I am of the opinion that it was not, and that's fine. However, you can come up with a single "ticky tacky" play for the Patriots while I can come up with at least 6 that I considered poor calls.

And I thought you said earlier in the thread that the roughing the passer call on Flacco was "legit", "right" and was a "sloppy, undisciplined play by the defender"? If you don't actually think it was a ticky tacky call, and are sticking to your original assesment of that call, then I'm still waiting for an example. If, however, you actually do consider that play to be a ticky tacky call, then I'm not sure how you can even argue that the two on us weren't ticky tacky (not even getting into the pass interference and call on Harbaugh).



We're all making assumptions here.Perhaps you ought to not call the head coach "embarrassing" and "undisciplined" based on an assumption then, when you have no idea whether you are right or wrong.



If the Ravens thought they blew the call, yes, they have to challenge. Or just not challenge and complain about it later.
Your argument for defending the refs based on the Ravens' ability to challenge said bad calls is like saying it's okay for Kindergarten teachers to teach a child how to spell their name incorrectly because their parents have the ability to correct that mistake.

As for complaining about it later - aren't you the one denouncing not only the organization, but also the fans in general for complaining about those poor calls? You can't have it both ways.


And finally, I can understand you not appreciating me calling your argument asinine. I apologize for doing so. However, I'd also like to point out that you called anyone who disagreed with your stance on the validity of those calls "whiners", "embarrassments", let us know that our behavior was "unbecoming", and had this sarcastic response to someone else who disagreed with you: "Awesome argument. Great contribution there." Not to mention you called the team, coach, and organization "undisciplined", "embarrassing", "stupid", and accused Suggs of making a "dirty" play.

But once again, you were right, me calling an argument asinine is completely out of line, whereas every insult you laid out to actual people is completely fine. (do I get bonus points for rhyming?)

----------------
The sad part of this is that I agree with you - the Ravens lost that game. They were in a position to win and because they couldn't make the plays, they ended up losing (Clayton's drop, Flacco's interception, Carr's fumble).

[McLovin]

That being said, I'm not sure I would say the Ravens lost because they were poorly coached or because there was poor play calling *snip*
I think it was part of the problem. The sum of the parts = a loss.



-Rice running on back to back plays: it seemed to me that they were trying to run the same play again, since it worked the first time. Teams often do this; you can say they should've taken out Rice, but had he not tripped over his own two feet (is tripping fatigue related? doubtful) and gotten a 5-10 yard gain as opposed to a 2 yard gain, nobody would be having this conversation. Running backs fall down in the backfield on a semi-frequent basis - blaming this on the coaches/fatigue is just a convenient excuse.
Maybe, I dunno, it didn't work, that's for sure.



-Timeout at the end of the half: meh, what did you want them to do? Use both their timeouts in order to have 10-15 seconds and the majority of the field left to drive so Flacco would have to force something and end up with another turnover? Perhaps they used the timeout because they didn't like something they saw in the offense they weren't comfortable with.
It was just stupid. It made no sense. You either call timeouts and try to get the punt, or you let them run out the clock.



Really? I'm pretty sure your first several posts come off completely different. You said it was embarrassing for us, as a town and as a team, to complain about the calls - and yet now you're back tracking and saying that it DOES suck and it's NOT right?
The calls were legitimate calls. That was my statement. When I said above "I don't think it's right" - I'm talking about whether I like the rule. I don't like the strict interpretation of the rule, but that's the rule they have to follow. Everyone knows the rule. If the rule is broken, there is no sense complaining over it.



We can agree to disagree on the roughing the passer on Flacco being just as bad as the one called on Ngata. I am of the opinion that it was not, and that's fine. However, you can come up with a single "ticky tacky" play for the Patriots while I can come up with at least 6 that I considered poor calls.

Fire away if you want to get bogged down in that.



If, however, you actually do consider that play to be a ticky tacky call, then I'm not sure how you can even argue that the two on us weren't ticky tacky (not even getting into the pass interference and call on Harbaugh).

Yes, they were all iffy, and I don't think the coaches would have freaked out if none elicited a call. If I were in charge, none would have gotten a flag. But if you look at the rule, you can easily see that they were all legit calls. Just like I said, the saying goes that they could call holding on 90% of all snaps. You'd like to see the refs be a little more sensible, but if you break a rule, you can't complain after you're caught.



Perhaps you ought to not call the head coach "embarrassing" and "undisciplined" based on an assumption then, when you have no idea whether you are right or wrong.

Nope, I can do that. When I'm watching a game on public TV in the middle of the day on a Sunday, and my son sees a leader representing my city lose his cool and scream 'bullspit' into someone's ear, it's an embarrassment.



Your argument for defending the refs based on the Ravens' ability to challenge said bad calls is like saying it's okay for Kindergarten teachers to teach a child how to spell their name incorrectly because their parents have the ability to correct that mistake.
If the Ravens felt wronged, they should have thrown the flag, right? I guess in your analogy, the parent lets the child go through life misspelling their name.



As for complaining about it later - aren't you the one denouncing not only the organization, but also the fans in general for complaining about those poor calls? You can't have it both ways.
I was being sarcastic saying "Or just not challenge and complain about it later."



And finally, I can understand you not appreciating me calling your argument asinine. I apologize for doing so. However, I'd also like to point out that you called anyone who disagreed with your stance on the validity of those calls "whiners", "embarrassments", let us know that our behavior was "unbecoming",
You're really reaching there. It's odd that no one else felt that I was personally attacking them.



and had this sarcastic response to someone else who disagreed with you: "Awesome argument. Great contribution there."
The poster in question dismissed my opinions outright, as if I were a complete fool, with no attempt to further the discussion. That's insulting.



Not to mention you called the team, coach, and organization "undisciplined", "embarrassing", "stupid", and accused Suggs of making a "dirty" play.
I said 'almost dirty' - I don't know what his intention was. It was however one of either dirty or stupid. The hits on the QB's were undisciplined. And yes, when you get on TV and complain about the refs, it screams of sour grapes, and it is embarrassing. They changed their tune after cooling down, and I'm proud of them for that and glad they did. Harbaugh has been classy about the whole matter.



But once again, you were right, me calling an argument asinine is completely out of line, whereas every insult you laid out to actual people is completely fine. (do I get bonus points for rhyming?)
If you need to reach that far to justify your behavior - do what ya gotta do. Personal insults are against the board rules, as is disparaging anyone (players, etc.). I'm not above the rules, and yet.... Somehow I've managed to not get called out by anyone except the guy who very directly insulted my opinion. What a strange coincidence.

[NewMarketSean]

I'll end this discussion by saying that the flag on Harbaugh was BS as was Suggs RTP penalty too. All others were OK, the Ravens beat themselves.

[VTmook213]

Nope, I can do that. When I'm watching a game on public TV in the middle of the day on a Sunday, and my son sees a leader representing my city lose his cool and scream 'bullspit' into someone's ear, it's an embarrassment.
Do you watch sports on a regular basis? You must feel embarrassed pretty often, because that type of behavior is commonplace. Whether you thought it was appropriate or not for your son to see that behavior from a "role model" has little to no bearing on whether it should or should not have been a penalty. That type of behavior is not only exhibited quite often and not penalized, but it's even been glorified by media stations who put together clips of coaches yelling at officials!



You're really reaching there. It's odd that no one else felt that I was personally attacking them.I didn't feel as though you were personally attacking me either. Then again, I also didn't feel like I was personally attacking you.



The poster in question dismissed my opinions outright, as if I were a complete fool, with no attempt to further the discussion. That's insulting.
And you don't think your OP was dismissive to anyone who felt like those calls may not have been valid? Your post basically said that anyone who felt that way was an embarrassing whiner; how does that leave room for discussion?

How many posts have you made to the effect of, "Those are the rules, it's as simple as that. There's nothing to complain about." How are those posts conducive to generating discussion?



If you need to reach that far to justify your behavior - do what ya gotta do. Personal insults are against the board rules, as is disparaging anyone (players, etc.). I'm not above the rules, and yet.... Somehow I've managed to not get called out by anyone except the guy who very directly insulted my opinion. What a strange coincidence.

No, see, here's the thing - I'm not trying to justify anything. I stand by what I said about your statement that: It's ok for the refs to make bad calls, because the Ravens have challenge flags. It's silly. It's not logical. It's inane.

The point I was trying to make was that you reacted to my "insult" in a defensive manner; yet from the get-go in this thread you've been nothing but condescending and dismissive of anyone else who had a differing opinion. And nobody has really complained about that. Yet I, in a "well thought out post" (your words) call one of your arguments ridiculous, and you get all up in a huff - to the point where, yes, another poster other than me did call you out and said he thought you were out of line for your reaction.

Your negative rep said: "Asinine? Classy."

I think you should read back through some of the comments you've made in this thread and see how many of them are truly "classy." I think you'd be surprised. Your behavior doesn't bother me ... but then again, I'm not the one handing out negative rep to posters who disagree with me.

[AgentOrange]

http://www.sportspickle.com/article:261/tom-brady-draws-emotionally-roughing-the-passer-penalty

[VTmook213]

http://www.sportspickle.com/article:261/tom-brady-draws-emotionally-roughing-the-passer-penaltyThat's been my gchat status all day :laughlol:

[McLovin]

It's about time to wrap this up. I don't agree with you on a lot of points, and that's ok. I will however clarify a few things, because I'm not sure I'm being as clear as you.

Do you watch sports on a regular basis? You must feel embarrassed pretty often, because that type of behavior is commonplace. Whether you thought it was appropriate or not for your son to see that behavior from a "role model" has little to no bearing on whether it should or should not have been a penalty. That type of behavior is not only exhibited quite often and not penalized, but it's even been glorified by media stations who put together clips of coaches yelling at officials!
I'm not embarrassed. I said Harbaugh was an embarrassment - meaning really his actions at the time. He lost his cool. I'm not trying to judge him as a coach or a man, just his actions at the time. I'm not sure why you quoted "role model", as I didn't say it, nor did I mean to imply it. I just stated that he represents all of us and our city. Maybe 'embarrassment' is too strong a term *shrug*. It's not really that important to me to keep arguing.



And you don't think your OP was dismissive to anyone who felt like those calls may not have been valid? Your post basically said that anyone who felt that way was an embarrassing whiner; how does that leave room for discussion?
I started a discussion thread on a message board. I did not intend to communicate that the matter was never up for debate. So no, I don't think it was dismissive at all. I had hoped it would be a conversation starter.



How many posts have you made to the effect of, "Those are the rules, it's as simple as that. There's nothing to complain about." How are those posts conducive to generating discussion?
Again, I am not communicating well enough. I'm not saying that we are not allowed to complain. It's addressed to the players. "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."


No, see, here's the thing - I'm not trying to justify anything. I stand by what I said about your statement that: It's ok for the refs to make bad calls, because the Ravens have challenge flags. It's silly. It's not logical. It's inane.
Again, I'm not saying "it's ok for the refs to make bad calls, because the Ravens have challenge flags." My point is if the Ravens felt the call was bad, they should have challenged. That's all. If they felt so strongly about it, they should have challenged the call - which is their only recourse really. They did nothing. Of course it's not ok for them to make a bad call under any circumstance. If they get one wrong, the ONLY recourse is to challenge. They didn't challenge. Complaining after the fact is not going to help anything.



The point I was trying to make was that you reacted to my "insult" in a defensive manner; yet from the get-go in this thread you've been nothing but condescending and dismissive of anyone else who had a differing opinion. And nobody has really complained about that. Yet I, in a "well thought out post" (your words) call one of your arguments ridiculous, and you get all up in a huff - to the point where, yes, another poster other than me did call you out and said he thought you were out of line for your reaction.

Really? Condescending? Rshack will get a kick out of that. Sorry, it was not intentional. Well, except the time to ccbird. That was intentional.



Your negative rep said: "Asinine? Classy."

Tell some of the other mods their opinion is asinine, and you will long for the way I handled it. You're hung up on this rep thing. Yes, I negative repped you. You seem to feel it was undeserved. At the same time, you felt the need to apologize for it. That's a bit of a contradiction, no?



I think you should read back through some of the comments you've made in this thread and see how many of them are truly "classy." I think you'd be surprised. Your behavior doesn't bother me ... but then again, I'm not the one handing out negative rep to posters who disagree with me.
Nope, I think I did just fine. In fact, I've gotten quite a few positive reps - and nary a negative - despite my 'behavior'.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Here's another observation.....last year the league eliminated the "incidental" face mask (the 5 yd penalty) and now only call the 15 yd personal foul face mask. In essence, the competition comittee left it up to the officials' descretion as to whether throw the flag or not. And one officials may view a grab and release of the face mask as a personal foul, whereas another official veiwing the same play, may keep the flag in his pocket.

So why did the competition comittee put the officials in a box and mandate that ANY contact with the QBs helmet or below the knees is a personal foul? Why is it that the officials are not afforded to use their judgement on roughing the passer personal fouls the same way they use their judgement on face mask personal fouls?

If protecting players is the concern, don't you risk injury by having your head twisted around as a runner much more than having your helmet touched as a QB?

I think they should be adding LESS gray-area into the rules, not more. And really, what they've done is instead of most face mask calls being the five-yard variety with a few overly-blatant ones getting the major, anything that would have been a face mask call before is now the major.

[RShack]

Here's another observation.....last year the league eliminated the "incidental" face mask (the 5 yd penalty) and now only call the 15 yd personal foul face mask. In essence, the competition comittee left it up to the officials' descretion as to whether throw the flag or not.
You got it backwards. Having 2 versions of the same basic penalty requires a judgment call on the part of the ref's about which version it was. That's against their philosophy of having the rules resolve things and have the ref's just be penalty-recognizers. Not saying that's realistic, just saying that's what they want: They want *less* room for judgment calls, not more.

[VTmook213]

Tell some of the other mods their opinion is asinine, and you will long for the way I handled it. You're hung up on this rep thing. Yes, I negative repped you. You seem to feel it was undeserved. At the same time, you felt the need to apologize for it. That's a bit of a contradiction, no?

I'm sorry, does the fact that you're a mod mean that your opinion is more valid than the rest of us? What does the fact that you're a mod have to do with anything?

And on the contrary, I can feel sorry for offending you while still believing my point to be true. I never meant to offend you at all; if I had known calling your argument silly was going to offend you to that degree, I surely would not have done so. I am sorry that I phrased my opinion in a manner that offended you, but I am not sorry for holding that opinion, nor do I think it is incorrect.

You'll have to forgive me, I'm new here, and I don't know how thick everyone's skin is yet.

[McLovin]

I'm sorry, does the fact that you're a mod mean that your opinion is more valid than the rest of us? What does the fact that you're a mod have to do with anything?
Oh nothing. Really. Go ahead and refer to all of our opinions as asinine. Really.:laughlol:


And on the contrary, I can feel sorry for offending you while still believing my point to be true. I never meant to offend you at all; if I had known calling your argument silly was going to offend you to that degree, I surely would not have done so. I am sorry that I phrased my opinion in a manner that offended you, but I am not sorry for holding that opinion, nor do I think it is incorrect.

You'll have to forgive me, I'm new here, and I don't know how thick everyone's skin is yet.
It's ok. My skin is very thin though. I've been in the fetal position all night. Lesson learned and all that.

[VThokies]

Tell some of the other mods their opinion is asinine, and you will long for the way I handled it. You're hung up on this rep thing. Yes, I negative repped you. You seem to feel it was undeserved. At the same time, you felt the need to apologize for it. That's a bit of a contradiction, no?

Are we that used to trolls that when a relatively new poster attempts to apologize for remarks deemed insulting, and offers an explanation to why those remarks were made, he gets called out for it?

You have both made well thought out posts, none of which have seemed overly offensive. Agree to disagree.... aaaaaand done. Next topic.

[VTmook213]

It's ok. My skin is very thin though. I've been in the fetal position all night. Lesson learned and all that.

You too?! Man, and here I thought I was the only one bawling my eyes out all day long! :laughlol:

[ccbird]

Oh nothing. Really. Go ahead and refer to all of our opinions as asinine. Really.:laughlol:

It's ok. My skin is very thin though. I've been in the fetal position all night. Lesson learned and all that.

I don't know, you certainly seem a little thin skinned in this thread. Congrats on being the first person to ever neg rep me BTW. As VT said, I could have taken your OP as insulting as well. I thought it was both condecending and over the top, but instead of breaking down your post I responded quickly and emotionally. I'm sorry I didn't gather myself and take the time to respond like I did in my 2nd post. Was it worthy of neg rep?? :noidea:. I know I see people here often be much more dismissive,condecending, and insulting than I was in my post. I also get the feeling when it comes to certain posters they are getting much more positive rep than neg rep for responding in that manner.

[VTmook213]

Aw, xx deleted his Mchatin reply ... I thought that was funny :laughlol:

[primetime]

You got it backwards. Having 2 versions of the same basic penalty requires a judgment call on the part of the ref's about which version it was. That's against their philosophy of having the rules resolve things and have the ref's just be penalty-recognizers. Not saying that's realistic, just saying that's what they want: They want *less* room for judgment calls, not more.

I don't see it that way. Before if you "touched" a face mask it was 5 yards for an incidental face mask and if you grabbed and twisted, it was 15 yards for a personal foul face mask. No gray area.

Now, when a player gets a hand on an opponent's face mask the official has to make a discretion call as to whether or not to throw the flag. So they've built in a gray area. On the other hand, with roughing the passer, there's no gray area....you touch the QB's helmet 15 yards, yout touch them below the knees, 15 yards.

Unless your a bad QB like JaMarcus Russell, then you don't get that call. :)

[tywright]

I haven't read the whole thread, but has anybody addressed the trick play by NE that would have resulted in a 1st down if they didn't have illegal motion. Harbaugh was smart to review it because it appeared Watson made the catch, but didn't get the 1st. We could have declined the penalty and received the ball on the 5 and only be down by 3. Of course the refs saw it differently and said Watson made the 1st down, which is another sketchy call by the refs.

[nemO821]

I haven't read the whole thread, but has anybody addressed the trick play by NE that would have resulted in a 1st down if they didn't have illegal motion. Harbaugh was smart to review it because it appeared Watson made the catch, but didn't get the 1st. We could have declined the penalty and received the ball on the 5 and only be down by 3. Of course the refs saw it differently and said Watson made the 1st down, which is another sketchy call by the refs.


They said there was enough evidence to overturn the call. On another note Ngata and Wright were both fined 5,000 for there penelties.

[MurphDogg]

They said there was enough evidence to overturn the call. On another note Ngata and Wright were both fined 5,000 for there penelties.

The fact that Suggs didn't get fined for grazing Brady's knees indicates that the officials erred in calling that play a penalty. If it was truly an illegal hit, there is no doubt there would have been a fine.

[Satyr3206]

Starting today all QB's are off limits. If you look at them the wrong way it's 15 yds and a fine.

If you act like a football player and want to hit someone it's 15 yards and a fine.

If you act like a Coach it's 15 yards and a fine.

Basically certain body parts have been cut off and if you can't adapt it's a penalty and a fine and get the heck out of football.

Break out the Skirts.

[Hank Scorpio]

The fact that Suggs didn't get fined for grazing Brady's knees indicates that the officials erred in calling that play a penalty. If it was truly an illegal hit, there is no doubt there would have been a fine.

Ironically, Suggs got fined for something else on Sunday.

Something really stupid.... wearing non-sanctioned shoes.

[Birds of B'more]

Ironically, Suggs got fined for something else on Sunday.

Something really stupid.... wearing non-sanctioned shoes.

There are times when I absolutely hate the NFL and what it stands for.

[RShack]

Ironically, Suggs got fined for something else on Sunday.

Something really stupid.... wearing non-sanctioned shoes.
I don't see how shoes can be cheating... unless they have rockets on them, or spears...

Reminds me of the ridiculous fine for honoring Johnny U... High-tops for everybody

[Hank Scorpio]

Suggs knows it's a fine going into the game, and he wears them anyways.

[NewMarketSean]

Well, what did everyone think of the reffing in this game? I thought it was horrible again. The Ray Lewis hit on Chad was not a bad call...it was a stupid penalty by Lewis who should know better. I thought all the other calls late in the game were terrible though.

[Bosibus]

Safe for work cartoon

http://www.bangcartoon.com/2009/skirt.htm

[MikeAD]

Safe for work cartoon

http://www.bangcartoon.com/2009/skirt.htm

Bwahahaah, nice find.