Wow, Dave. Really? Wow.

[DrungoHazewood]

On Bill James' online page he has other writers contribute. I'd never really paid attention to Sean Kates until today, when there was a little blurb at the top of the main page about some article he'd written that included something about Dave Trembley. I figured it was just some piece on his strategies or approach or baserunning ideas or something.

I was wrong. Kates apparently won some MASN fantasy contest last year and ended up having lunch with Trembley and a couple other guys. I don't know what got into Trembley, but apparently he had no problem saying exactly what he thought about all kinds of people, mainly Oriole players. Keats quotes or paraphrases what he said in some detail. (http://www.billjamesonline.net/ArticleContent.aspx?AID=1280)

I think most of you will be stunned by quite a lot of this.

I'll exerpt some quotes, trying to keep them in context:


Adam Jones? Trembley thinks he’ll develop more power, eventually become a number 5 hitter who fields his position well. He also thinks that he’s got a future as a clubhouse leader, but for now is a little mouthy and in no way deserved the Gold Glove he received.


Felix Pie? No real future with the team outside of defensive replacement, despite his constant improvement throughout the year, according to the manager. Trembley is much more in love with Nolan Reimold, and believes he will be the answer that makes Pie and Luke Scott redundant.


We had a lengthy chat about Daniel Cabrera, the enigmatic starting pitcher that was so bad, the Nationals let him midway through 2009. Constantly teasing Baltimore with his overpowering fastball and sheer size, he also soured the organization with some of his more annoying traits. Like not being able to throw that fastball for a strike. Or not having a second pitch. Or, according to Trembley, throwing at people out of turn and juicing like crazy.


He laid into Danys Baez and Kameron Mickolio, both of who refused to enter consecutive games at times throughout the season...


Those lucky enough not to follow the Orioles probably missed a minor flare-up during last season, centered on the diminutive switch-hitter... During our lunch, Trembley told us that Roberts admitted to dogging it for a couple of days, apologized and promised to get his head back in the game. And he did. Trembley seemed genuinely appreciative of the honesty and said he felt bad for sitting Roberts.


A big believer in the development of Josh Bell and Brandon Snyder, Trembely told us he had been pushing for a short-term corner fix, and even name-dropped Hank Blalock. Even more surprising was his willingness…hell, his strong desire to be reunited with Erik Bedard.


He (Trembley) loves Bill James (unbidden; I didn’t reveal I wrote here until we were almost finished with the lunch[11]), regularly reads Baseball Prospectus, FanGraphs, Hardball Times and seemingly anything else he can get his hands on about baseball. He genuinely loves the sport, and I get the feeling he is currently employed at his dream job.

Whew!

This may become the first 8000-page thread I've ever started!

[Mackus]

Aside from whether or not you think its prudent for Trembley to be sharing those thoughts with a fan contest winner yet alone the fact that he's a baseball writer, I don't think there is anything vastly wrong with what he's saying.

I disagree with a few of the opinions you outlined, particularly Pie, but everything else in terms of opinions I think I agree with.

The only real disappointing things to me are that Kam refused to pitch back-to-back last year at times, hopefully that changes, and that he thinks or knows that Danny Cabrera was a big time juicer.

[Icterus galbula]

Wow. The veil comes off.


The comments about Pie dissapoint me most. It seems like Trembley more or less has his mind made up about what kind of player he'll become.

The Cabrera "juicing like crazy" is quite a story too.


[EDIT: Now that this account is being seriously doubted, its unfair for me to assume that Trembley has his mind made up about Pie.]

[Lucky Jim]

On Bill James' online page he has other writers contribute. I'd never really paid attention to Sean Kates until today, when there was a little blurb at the top of the main page about some article he'd written that included something about Dave Trembley. I figured it was just some piece on his strategies or approach or baserunning ideas or something.

I was wrong. Kates apparently won some MASN fantasy contest last year and ended up having lunch with Trembley and a couple other guys. I don't know what got into Trembley, but apparently he had no problem saying exactly what he thought about all kinds of people, mainly Oriole players. Keats quotes or paraphrases what he said in some detail. (http://www.billjamesonline.net/ArticleContent.aspx?AID=1280)

I think most of you will be stunned by quite a lot of this.

I'll exerpt some quotes, trying to keep them in context:















Whew!

This may become the first 8000-page thread I've ever started!

Well, that's disastrous. I'll remain dubious because I don't see any quotes. It doesn't sound like an interview, either. If Trembley was talking off the record, and didn't know that Kates was a reporter, and Kates didn't write down actual quotes, then I'm not sure what that's doing being published.

If Trembley didn't use "mouthy" then you don't use it, for instance. If he didn't say "no real future," the criticism is the same. It's basic journalism.

[DrungoHazewood]

Aside from whether or not you think its prudent for Trembley to be sharing those thoughts with a fan contest winner yet alone the fact that he's a baseball writer, I don't think there is anything vastly wrong with what he's saying.

I disagree with a few of the opinions you outlined, particularly Pie, but everything else in terms of opinions I think I agree with.

The only real disappointing things to me are that Kam refused to pitch back-to-back last year at times, hopefully that changes, and that he thinks or knows that Danny Cabrera was a big time juicer.

Wrong? No. Surprising? Absolutely.

I would have been surprised with a Trembley quote that he thought Pie was a 4th outfielder. But a Trembley quote that Pie is a defensive replacement, Roberts dogged it, Cabrera was doing 'roids like crazy, and Baez and Mickolio refused to pitch sometimes? Yikes!

[DrungoHazewood]

Well, that's disastrous. I'll remain dubious because I don't see any quotes. It doesn't sound like an interview, either. If Trembley was talking off the record, and didn't know that Kates was a reporter, and Kates didn't write down actual quotes, then I'm not sure what that's doing being published.

If Trembley didn't use "mouthy" then you don't use it, for instance. It's basic journalism.

He said that he mentioned he wrote for Bill James online, and that there was also a MASN blogger there.

Looking at the article the only quotes he uses are from this sentence:
the Orioles had guys like Jeremy Guthrie, who Trembley characterized simultaneously as “a good guy” and “more stubborn than a mule.”

[Dipper9]

On Bill James' online page he has other writers contribute. I'd never really paid attention to Sean Kates until today, when there was a little blurb at the top of the main page about some article he'd written that included something about Dave Trembley. I figured it was just some piece on his strategies or approach or baserunning ideas or something.

I was wrong. Kates apparently won some MASN fantasy contest last year and ended up having lunch with Trembley and a couple other guys. I don't know what got into Trembley, but apparently he had no problem saying exactly what he thought about all kinds of people, mainly Oriole players. Keats quotes or paraphrases what he said in some detail. (http://www.billjamesonline.net/ArticleContent.aspx?AID=1280)

I think most of you will be stunned by quite a lot of this.

I'll exerpt some quotes, trying to keep them in context:















Whew!

This may become the first 8000-page thread I've ever started!

Oh man, this is gonna get ugly.

First, I knew about Trembley's lunch, and I knew he answered their questions honestly, but I am surprised they didn't tell these people that they were not allowed to publish anything they discussed?

That said, nothing real surprising in there except the stuff about Pie. It appeared that Trembley just didn't like the kid, but now that seems to be a given. Also, he said what many of us felt about Jones...not worth the gold glove.

[TyCobb]

I like the DT reads all the baseball stuff. Calling out Cabrera as a steriod user probalby isn't going to sit well with the clubhouse.

Seems like DT really isn't afraid to go after his players in the media.

[Old#5fan]

Aside from whether or not you think its prudent for Trembley to be sharing those thoughts with a fan contest winner yet alone the fact that he's a baseball writer, I don't think there is anything vastly wrong with what he's saying.

I disagree with a few of the opinions you outlined, particularly Pie, but everything else in terms of opinions I think I agree with.

The only real disappointing things to me are that Kam refused to pitch back-to-back last year at times, hopefully that changes, and that he thinks or knows that Danny Cabrera was a big time juicer.

Most of this is not surprising except for a rookie balking at doing anything. IMO if what DT says is true about Mikolio I would show him the door ASAP. Apparently some of the loser mentality of Baez already rubbed off on him.

[rhall]

I actually didn't find there to much controversal topics in there.

Should he have said that Adam Jones didn't deserve his GG? As his manager, probably not. Not in public anyway, but anyone who follows/trusts the defensive metrics will tell you that he had a down year defensively.

The truth about Felix Pie's future role with the team is more an indication at our strength in the OF than a knock on Pie. On the Orioles, his future may as a sub (although I think he'll get a decent amount of playing time), but that probably won't be his entire future. If all 4 of our young OFers establish themselves, someone will get traded - most likely, Pie.

The thing that stuck out to me the most was Kam Mickolio's unwillingness to throw on back-to-back days last year. I hope that was more rooted in his being less than 100% health-wise. Trembley did say 'at times', and there were times when Mickolio was a little banged up, so hopefully the times when Mickolio was unavailable on back-to-back days were coinciding with those times.

[yamminonemo6]

I don't think he should have said any of that to a random person. I wouldn't be surprised if AM decides to "go in another direction" with the managerial position if all of this is true..

[PBR Street Gang]

Dubious interview.

[Can_of_corn]

I am more suprised by DT reading habits. I never would have thought, watching him manage, that he was so into the stat side of baseball. I would think he would not be as in love with the Hit and Run for example.

Other then that I am not suprised by anything he said other then the part about Kam. I am however shocked that he said it.

[VeveJones007]

I wonder if disagreements between AM and Trembley regarding Pie could end up causing a rift between the two...potentially costing Trembley his job this year.

[LookinUp]

Wasn't Kam eventually shut down due to injury?

The stuff that could eventually get him in hot water is about Jones. Not supporting his gold glove and inferring that he's "mouthy" will either make him a better player or an unhappy player.

Trembley better hope this stuff doens't lose the club house.

[Lucky Jim]

I wonder if disagreements between AM and Trembley regarding Pie could end up causing a rift between the two...potentially costing Trembley his job this year.

If that interview is accurate, and he said those things, I'd be the last guy to mind.

It's not that I don't think he should have opinions. It's the fact that he shared them with folks who then could go disseminate them throughout the interwebs.

Idiotic.

[Mackus]

Its funny that a lot of people want Dave to be more honest with the media and forthcoming with some interviews, and then when we here what he actually has to say when the gloves come off and then people say that "he shouldn't be saying this outside of the locker room". Damned if you do...damned it you don't.

As a fan, I love hearing this stuff and anything that gives a better understanding of how things actually go.

But, at the same time, you wonder how the players' trust in him would be effected by making some of this stuff public, and if that could have a negative effect then it is probably a bad thing to be saying this.

[rhall]

Wrong? No. Surprising? Absolutely.

I would have been surprised with a Trembley quote that he thought Pie was a 4th outfielder. But a Trembley quote that Pie is a defensive replacement, Roberts dogged it, Cabrera was doing 'roids like crazy, and Baez and Mickolio refused to pitch sometimes? Yikes!

I agree with Lucky Jim that without actual quotes, putting too many of these specific words into Trembley's mouth is dubious.

I also think that you're taking it another step further with this comment. I think there's a big difference between saying someone is a 4th outfielder (which speaks to the player's talent) and saying his role on this team is as a sub (which speaks to the player's opportunities).

[Lucky Jim]

Its funny that a lot of people want Dave to be more honest with the media and forthcoming with some interviews, and then when we here what he actually has to say when the gloves come off and then people say that "he shouldn't be saying this outside of the locker room". Damned if you do...damned it you don't.

As a fan, I love hearing this stuff and anything that gives a better understanding of how things actually go.

But, at the same time, you wonder how the players' trust in him would be effected by making some of this stuff public, and if that could have a negative effect then it is probably a bad thing to be saying this.

It's only accurate if the same people hold both positions. It's a pet peeve of mine when people do this - and it's a SG favorite. As if, because some people on the board feel one way, others on the board can't feel the opposite.

[Mackus]

It's only accurate if the same people hold both positions. It's a pet peeve of mine when people do this - and it's a SG favorite. As if, because some people on the board feel one way, others on the board can't feel the opposite.No, I'm not insinuating that the same people are taking both stances. Just that basically no matter what Trembley does, somoene's gonna be unhappy with him.

[TyCobb]

I agree with Lucky Jim that without actual quotes, putting too many of these specific words into Trembley's mouth is dubious.

I also think that you're taking it another step further with this comment. I think there's a big difference between saying someone is a 4th outfielder (which speaks to the player's talent) and saying his role on this team is as a sub (which speaks to the player's opportunities).

I agree. I think DT talk about Pie has to do with the fact that he really believes Reimold is the LFer.

I wonder about the Miko talk. Was it because he said he wasn't ready to pitch or did he just out right refuse to pitch on back to back days.

[Lucky Jim]

No, I'm not insinuating that the same people are taking both stances. Just that basically no matter what Trembley does, somoene's gonna be unhappy with him.

That's fair. But hey, that's life, I guess. The only way most of us get away with not pissing off half of the planet is because no one cares what we think or do.

[JTrea81]

I like the refreshing nature of Trembley's thoughts, though it will be interesting to see if there was an NDA of sorts that has been violated.

Airing this stuff out like that isn't going to sit well with guys in the clubhouse.

[clapdiddy]

I agree with Lucky Jim that without actual quotes, putting too many of these specific words into Trembley's mouth is dubious.

I also think that you're taking it another step further with this comment. I think there's a big difference between saying someone is a 4th outfielder (which speaks to the player's talent) and saying his role on this team is as a sub (which speaks to the player's opportunities).

Exactly...I was thinking the same thing. What if AM is working on a deal for Pie and someone reads this. It may hinder his trade value, and would likely have an affect on Pie's demeanor.

[byrdz]

If these aren't quotes and are merely "paraphrasing" I would be skeptical about this info.

[SilentJames]

The problem with a lot of this stuff is context. We really don't know what the context of the answers were, etc. etc.

[VAB2110]

I don't think Trembley knew he was on the record or maybe the guy told him it was off the record and wrote it anyway but you don't say those kind of things about your players in public.

[DrungoHazewood]

I agree with Lucky Jim that without actual quotes, putting too many of these specific words into Trembley's mouth is dubious.

I also think that you're taking it another step further with this comment. I think there's a big difference between saying someone is a 4th outfielder (which speaks to the player's talent) and saying his role on this team is as a sub (which speaks to the player's opportunities).

Sorry, I shouldn't have said "4th outfielder". The article's exact words were "No real future with the team outside of defensive replacement".

[Can_of_corn]

I wonder if disagreements between AM and Trembley regarding Pie could end up causing a rift between the two...potentially costing Trembley his job this year.

I would think that it would have already if it was going to. I am quite sure that AM knew about DT's views before he extended him last fall.

[JTrea81]

I don't think Trembley knew he was on the record or maybe the guy told him it was off the record and wrote it anyway but you don't say those kind of things about your players in public.

Well it wasn't in public really, it was to a select group of individuals invited to a lunch with DT.

[Mackus]

That's fair. But hey, that's life, I guess. The only way most of us get away with not pissing off half of the planet is because no one cares what we think or do.I think I just stumbled into how I feel about this article.

I have no problems with Trembley thinking any of those things. I don't exactly agree with all of them, but he's got sound reasons for feeling all of those things and I especially like that he's in tune with the more modern metrics and approaches to baseball (probably helps that he was never a pro in that regard).

I understand if people have a problem with Trembley saying those things, though, either to a contest-winner or a writer. It certainly can't help morale in the clubhouse, although I'm not sure it will hurt it either. All the things he said are interesting for me to hear, probably even moreso than most of his press conferences (which I still like, I love hearing Trembley talk about baseball), and I'd like to hear more stuff like this. However, if it hurts the team, then its a bad thing.

I guess its no different than celebrity gossip. I love hearing all the juicy details and then turn around and badmouth the source for being wrong to give them to me.

[berto]

I do like his honesty about certain things. I just don't understand him calling out some of his players. I can't imagine that would be good for the clubhouse. I think he could handle some of those things within the clubhouse like the Mickolio situation. I also don't like the fact that the guy has never liked Pie and made his mind on what Pie will be to this team without really giving him much of a chance. Then coming out and telling people he will be nothing more than a sub, I think that is inappropriate. I am also a little worried about Mickolio though, I hope that was because of health reasons. Hopefully it doesn't hurt the clubhouse.

[TyCobb]

Sorry, I shouldn't have said "4th outfielder". The article's exact words were "No real future with the team outside of defensive replacement".

That comment could be his strong thoughts about Reimold and not a shot at Pie.

We know Crow and AM both really like Pie.

[EL_Coyote]

I wouldn't give the author of that garbage one shred of credibility.

I wouldn't suggest that Drungohazewood was at fault for posting it. However this is a great example of someone attempting to make news when there is none.

Dave Trembley is just another guy out there trying to earn a living. Why would anyone want to so maliciously do this to someone?

[Lucky Jim]

I think I just stumbled into how I feel about this article.

I have no problems with Trembley thinking any of those things. I don't exactly agree with all of them, but he's got sound reasons for feeling all of those things and I especially like that he's in tune with the more modern metrics and approaches to baseball (probably helps that he was never a pro in that regard).

I understand if people have a problem with Trembley saying those things, though, either to a contest-winner or a writer. It certainly can't help morale in the clubhouse, although I'm not sure it will hurt it either. All the things he said are interesting for me to hear, probably even moreso than most of his press conferences (which I still like, I love hearing Trembley talk about baseball), and I'd like to hear more stuff like this. However, if it hurts the team, then its a bad thing.

I guess its no different than celebrity gossip. I'll sit around and badmouth the paparazzi and Access Hollywood and then refresh refresh refresh all day long to get the latest and juiciest news.

The other problem is tone. But that issue is about the heavily-mediated format.

I mean, who is this guy, and why is gossip - with none of the checks and balances of journalism - being perpetuated as something more?

But your points are mine. I just lean more heavily on the propriety than the interesting insight.

[Hank Scorpio]

I feel like I should be more exasperated than I am.

I don't think there's anything in there that's shocking, really.

[Mackus]

I feel like I should be more exasperated than I am.

I don't think there's anything in there that's shocking, really.I guess the shocking thing is that he said it, not what he said.

You can't tell the Emporer that he has no clothes.

[Hank Scorpio]

That's fair. But hey, that's life, I guess. The only way most of us get away with not pissing off half of the planet is because no one cares what we think or do.

This is like, the coolest thing I've ever read.

I mean, what do we want from Dave Trembley? To not share his opinions with anyone, ever, outside the organization? I think that's ridiculous, frankly.

I wish he talked like this all the time.

I have been fortunate enough to have spoken with the man candidly at the Eagles game last year. He was there with Jones & MacPhail. He spoke frankly about baseball but there was nothing that made my eyes pop out of my head or didn't agree with. He mostly wanted to meet Zbikowski :laughlol:.

[TyCobb]

"We had a lengthy chat about Daniel Cabrera, the enigmatic starting pitcher that was so bad, the Nationals let him midway through 2009. Constantly teasing Baltimore with his overpowering fastball and sheer size, he also soured the organization with some of his more annoying traits. Like not being able to throw that fastball for a strike. Or not having a second pitch. Or, according to Trembley, throwing at people out of turn and juicing like crazy."

Cabrera can get suspended for this quote, right?

Also not having a 2nd pitch? Does he mean 3rd because I remember Cabrera slider being pretty damn good.

[Dipper9]

This is like, the coolest thing I've ever read.

I mean, what do we want from Dave Trembley? To not share his opinions with anyone, ever, outside the organization? I think that's ridiculous, frankly.

I wish he talked like this all the time.

As the Doctor of Style Slick used to say..."Honesty is the best policy!"

So, in keeping with that theme, I just want to say, Hank, your girlfriend is HOT! :eektf:

(not sure if Hank will green rep me, red rep me, or hunt me down and shoot me! :D )

[Hank Scorpio]

As the Doctor of Style Slick used to say..."Honesty is the best policy!"

So, in keeping with that theme, I just want to say, Hank, your girlfriend is HOT! :eektf:

(not sure if Hank will green rep me, red rep me, or hunt me down and shoot me! :D )

I would green rep you. But I've done too much of that lately, apparently ;).

[grimed1]

We can ask Mr Dave at Fanfest to explain the quotes. I think he will deny or taken out of context quote,

[Stotle]

Seeing Trembley state he thought Jones would end up a 5-hitter is nice. Generally agree with LJ on his thoughts. If, IF, Trembley was aware this stuff could be published, I have to generally question BAL's policies (or lack thereof) towards coaches access to the media. Between this and some of the comments coming out of the minors, I'd think the O's would want to better control the "inside" stuff.

[Mackus]

Cabrera can get suspended for this quote, right?

Also not having a 2nd pitch? Does he mean 3rd because I remember Cabrera slider being pretty damn good.No way can Cabrera get suspended because of this. Its barely a quote and even if it was, it'd have to take more than a coach's word.

Danny's slider was nasty for a couple years, but his last year or two it was awful. I think losing that pitch hurt him more than losing the velocity did.

[El Gordo]

Well, that's disastrous. I'll remain dubious because I don't see any quotes. It doesn't sound like an interview, either. If Trembley was talking off the record, and didn't know that Kates was a reporter, and Kates didn't write down actual quotes, then I'm not sure what that's doing being published.
If Trembley didn't use "mouthy" then you don't use it, for instance. If he didn't say "no real future," the criticism is the same. It's basic journalism.This struck me as well. "I didn’t reveal I wrote here until we were almost finished with the lunch". Perhaps the lunch might have taken a different tone if he had. Also any writer who tries to ebellish his prose as much as Kates appears to do, is likely to try to embelleish his facts as well.:rolleyestf: That being said, not much of what DT is supposed to have said, surprised me. I'm glad he wasn't that impressed with Jones' D, seems up on the latest metrics, is high on Snyder and Bell, wants EriK back, not surprised he isn't enamoresd of Pie. I've always thought that. He's just wrong on this one IMO.:laughlol: Too bad about Blalock as well. His characterization of Guts seems accurate as well. Won't win DT any points when Guts read this though.

[Hank Scorpio]

Frankly, the guy doing the paraphrasing sounds a bit like a guy who isn't crazy about Dave Trembley or his beliefs.

[Lucky Jim]

Seeing Trembley state he thought Jones would end up a 5-hitter is nice. Generally agree with LJ on his thoughts. If, IF, Trembley was aware this stuff could be published, I have to generally question BAL's policies (or lack thereof) towards coaches access to the media. Between this and some of the comments coming out of the minors, I'd think the O's would want to better control the "inside" stuff.

I have trouble imagining AM mad, but I have a feeling that if the O's got wind of this article, there would be some sharing of feelings.

[SilentJames]

We can ask Mr Dave at Fanfest to explain the quotes. I think he will deny or taken out of context quote,

Dave is a smart guy. I don't think he would let anything out that he isn't prepared to stand behind in some way.

I think we are missing out on some of the context here.

Dave said he was going to be tougher on players this year, no time like the present i suppose.

[Dipper9]

It'd be interesting to hear Roch's comments on this article, as I believe it was Roch who reported this lunch some months ago and stated that DT did in fact answer some of the fans questions.

[DrungoHazewood]

I wouldn't give the author of that garbage one shred of credibility.

I wouldn't suggest that Drungohazewood was at fault for posting it. However this is a great example of someone attempting to make news when there is none.

Dave Trembley is just another guy out there trying to earn a living. Why would anyone want to so maliciously do this to someone?

I don't know if there's any reason to think the author made up the quotes. Most of the answers are stuff we're suprised were said, but weren't much surprised about the content.

Truthfully, part of me wishes I hadn't posted this. I think DT is a really good guy, and this may not reflect on him that well in some places. Like the clubhouse. But I guess it was already out there, and someone else would have found it eventually.

[LookitsPuck]

Dave is a smart guy. I don't think he would let anything out that he isn't prepared to stand behind in some way.

I think we are missing out on some of the context here.

Dave said he was going to be tougher on players this year, no time like the present i suppose.

Being tough on players is saying that your star CF doesn't deserve the Gold Glove?

Being tough on players is outing a previous player as a steroid user?

It's not that I don't agree with him, but that's not the definition of being tough. That's the definition of being classless.

I don't know about the rest of this forum, but this post really rubbed me the wrong way. I've already had issues with how Dave handled players in the past (namely Felix Pie, Scott Moore, Melvin Mora, and some other veterans), but this really just irks me.

I disagree 100% with his position on Pie, but judging how he's treated Pie in the past, it doesn't surprise me one bit.

Dave, this was just extremely classless.

[EL_Coyote]

We had a lengthy chat about Daniel Cabrera, the enigmatic starting pitcher that was so bad, the Nationals let him midway through 2009. Constantly teasing Baltimore with his overpowering fastball and sheer size, he also soured the organization with some of his more annoying traits. Like not being able to throw that fastball for a strike. Or not having a second pitch. Or, according to Trembley, throwing at people out of turn and juicing like crazy.

I am sorry. I simply cannot imagine Dave Trembley sitting in his basement this drunk with no one around him that he would openly say this to anyone. Five years from now and he isn't involved with the Orioles in anyway and he is absolutely plastered... maybe. Now, in any context. Sorry I just can't see such an intelligent man saying that to anyone.

[Lucky Jim]

I don't know if there's any reason to think the author made up the quotes. Most of the answers are stuff we're suprised were said, but weren't much surprised about the content.

Truthfully, part of me wishes I hadn't posted this. I think DT is a really good guy, and this may not reflect on him that well in some places. Like the clubhouse. But I guess it was already out there, and someone else would have found it eventually.

It's not that the quotes are made up. It's that there aren't many quotes.

[DuffMan]

Good stuff in there for sure. I'm curious when it was during the season that Roberts admitted to dogging it? August, September???:scratchchinhmm:

[DrungoHazewood]

Frankly, the guy doing the paraphrasing sounds a bit like a guy who isn't crazy about Dave Trembley or his beliefs.

I don't think so:


...that person seems like a nice man, an honest person with a real zeal for what they do. Still, he’s in a rough situation, and he’s exactly the kind of guy who gets fired from a job like that. He speaks his mind and the truth, two things that are hard to hear from a manager for a losing team.

I am sure that, whenever his time with the Orioles ends, he will land on his feet. Baseball is better with people like him around. People who know the sport, who love the sport and whose love for the sport is so contagious, it can overcome the bitter ennui of a jaded fan in the course of one lunch.

[DrungoHazewood]

It's not that the quotes are made up. It's that there aren't many quotes.

Should have said "content" instead of "quotes". I don't think any of us are blown away by the content, just that DT said them out loud where somebody could relay them to the world.

[Boy Howdy]

I have trouble imagining AM mad, but I have a feeling that if the O's got wind of this article, there would be some sharing of feelings.

I'm 99% sure they'll be aware of it by sundown if they aren't already.

[Moose Milligan]

<img src = "http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/kidcruisin/face.gif">


And there's this:



I feel like I should be more exasperated than I am.

I don't think there's anything in there that's shocking, really.

Ahhhh, my good buddy Hank Scorpio, ever too cool for school.

You know, I think YOU should change your avatar to Joe Cool.

[EL_Coyote]

I don't know if there's any reason to think the author made up the quotes. Most of the answers are stuff we're suprised were said, but weren't much surprised about the content.

Truthfully, part of me wishes I hadn't posted this. I think DT is a really good guy, and this may not reflect on him that well in some places. Like the clubhouse. But I guess it was already out there, and someone else would have found it eventually.

That is why I said your shouldn't be faulted for posting it. Ive heard enough interviews with DT to know he guards his words carefully. I would be very interested to see if this get picked up by a legit news agency and is followed up on.

I don't like the idea that we live in a litigious society, however I would hardly blame them if that route were investigated.

[El Gordo]

I have trouble imagining AM mad, but I have a feeling that if the O's got wind of this article, there would be some sharing of feelings.I would be surprised if any thing DT is supposed to have said in this "interview", would be news to the players mentioned. DT strikes me as a guy who is honest to a fault, and I bet Guts is used to hearing "mule" and his name in the same breath. He may not be happy about reading it in print.

[Boy Howdy]

I have trouble imagining AM mad, but I have a feeling that if the O's got wind of this article, there would be some sharing of feelings.

It's funny, I just read about his grandfather in the Paul Richards bio. Lee MacPhail, Sr. was described as "...a belligerent drunk known as 'The Roaring Redhead'...".

Of course, Andy dad Lee, Jr. was said to be as different from his father "as a double is from a double play", so who knows.

[sbauer]

This could be bad. There's being honest to the public, and then there's being honest like you're passed out drunk in a bar.

I understand he has opinions, but he's got to work with these guys in a month. Not a good way to start the year off. "Hey Jonesy, get out in center. You didn't deserve that gold glove last year. I want you to work on some things."

[citisights]

I couldn't read the article, but Dave is pretty old school, so maybe when he said Cabrera was juicing, he meant throwing a spitter?

[TonySoprano]

He said that he mentioned he wrote for Bill James online, and that there was also a MASN blogger there.That's all well and good, but it doesn't preclude Trembley from making remarks which were intended to be taken as off-the-record during the course of the lunch. If Trembley didn't caveat his remarks as such, well shame on him. However, he's given enough interviews so I have doubts that he failed to do so.

[Hank Scorpio]

I don't think so:


Felix Pie? No real future with the team outside of defensive replacement, despite his constant improvement throughout the year, according to the manager. Trembley is much more in love with Nolan Reimold, and believes he will be the answer that makes Pie and Luke Scott redundant.

Context.


He laid into Danys Baez and Kameron Mickolio, both of who refused to enter consecutive games at times throughout the season...

Context.


Those lucky enough not to follow the Orioles probably missed a minor flare-up during last season, centered on the diminutive switch-hitter... During our lunch, Trembley told us that Roberts admitted to dogging it for a couple of days, apologized and promised to get his head back in the game. And he did. Trembley seemed genuinely appreciative of the honesty and said he felt bad for sitting Roberts.

Yeah, he's not bitter. Eh.... I'm sorry but this sounds like someone with an agenda trying to cover it up with his conclusion.

Like I do on here, I take this stuff with a grain of salt. I appreciate you bringing it up and I can understand why you would post it, but I don't think any differently of Trembley after reading it.

Edit: my bad, he actually said he was a bitter fan.

Grain of salt!!!!!

[Dipper9]

That's all well and good, but it doesn't preclude Trembley from making remarks which were intended to be taken as off-the-record during the course of the lunch. If Trembley didn't caveat his remarks as such, well shame on him. However, he's given enough interviews so I have doubts that he failed to do so.

Soprano, you are the great "finder or articles on the internet." Try to find Roch's blog where he discussed this luncheon. If you find it, you'll get some Italian rep.

[Mackus]

He said that he mentioned he wrote for Bill James online, and that there was also a MASN blogger there.He said he didn't mention that until after the lunch, though.

It sounds like Trembley thought he was speaking off the record, if a MASN Blogger was there, then Roch (assuming it was him) obviously thought it was off-the-record as well, because otherwise he would have printed this stuff.

I don't doubt the content of Trembley's statements to this writer very much (or at all, really), but I do think that he perhaps used some slightly backhanded ways of getting around that "off-the-record" caveat.

[DrungoHazewood]

I couldn't read the article, but Dave is pretty old school, so maybe when he said Cabrera was juicing, he meant throwing a spitter?

No, it was very clear that he didn't mean a spitter.

[Moose Milligan]

No one bothered to tell CaBBrera that roids don't help you with your fastball location?

[ChaosLex]

Has anyone brought this to Roch's attention yet?

[DrungoHazewood]

He said he didn't mention that until after the lunch, though.

It sounds like Trembley thought he was speaking off the record, if a MASN Blogger was there, then Roch (assuming it was him) obviously thought it was off-the-record as well, because otherwise he would have printed this stuff.

I don't doubt the content of Trembley's statements to this writer very much (or at all, really), but I do think that he perhaps used some slightly backhanded ways of getting around that "off-the-record" caveat.

I don't doubt that. It would surprise me if Dave thought all of this would be transcribed straight to the internet.

The author made it sound like the "MASN blogger" was someone very low on the totem pole. I'm not sure who they have blogging for them, but anyone who's followed the O's should know Roch, and that he's not exactly nobody.

[Mackus]

Soprano, you are the great "finder or articles on the internet." Try to find Roch's blog where he discussed this luncheon. If you find it, you'll get some Italian rep.Here's an article discussing the prize before the winners were chosen, if that helps at all:
http://masnsports.com/2009/07/fantasy-baseball-makes-it-to-m.html

[Tony-OH]

This is a classic example of watching what you say around who. I've had hundreds of conversations with people in the organization where they have spoken "off the cuff," but not in a million years would I ever paraphase someone like that in an "article."

First off, it's unprofessional to ever paraphase someone especially in an informal type of setting. Secondly, the classless act was the guy who wrote up this kind of stuff. Talk about a guy who will never be trusted ever again.

I have no idea of whether or not Dave said those things to this guy, but what I do know is that is doesn't take a huge leep of faith to say anyone who paraphrazing this kind of stuff certainly would not be above exageration.

I've know Dave awhile now and have had some nice "off the record" conversations with him over the years. Dave is a straight shooter in this kind of environment so I would not be surprised if he didn't open up a bit, but at the same time, he's a pretty smart guy so I would be surprised if he actually came out and said Cabrera was a juicer.

I'm sure Dave will be alot more careful in the future about who he's talking to once this all hits the fan.

[El Gordo]

"Never a particularly consistent writer on the site to start, I’ve found it nearly impossible to contribute in any way over the past three months. Generally, between my own articles, I will read the site comprehensively, including the Readers’ Posts, and comment where I find it appropriate or - if someone is being especially daft - necessary. Just like any other citizen in this little electronic hamlet, I enjoy the day-to-day interactions with not only the namesake, but the other writers and readers who contribute here."
I wouldn't wonder.:laughlol:
I challenge you to read that first paragraph and not get a headache. To each his own I suppose, but IMHO, this guy is bending over backwards to impress us with his 'eloquence'. Reading him is like listening to someone talk, who likes to listen to the sound of his own voice more than making clear what it is he has to say. I have to question the motives behind anything he continues to say in his "article", especially his characterizations of his lunch with Dave. :rolleyestf:

[Gurgi]

Didnt some poster named Gurgi mention that Cabrera's problems were likely due to PED's? Wow that Gurgi is pretty sharp and calls it like he sees it.

[Moose Milligan]

This is a classic example of watching what you say around who. I've had hundreds of conversations with people in the organization where they have spoken "off the cuff," but not in a million years would I ever paraphase someone like that in an "article."

First off, it's unprofessional to ever paraphase someone especially in an informal type of setting. Secondly, the classless act was the guy who wrote up this kind of stuff. Talk about a guy who will never be trusted ever again.

I have no idea of whether or not Dave said those things to this guy, but what I do know is that is doesn't take a huge leep of faith to say anyone who paraphrazing this kind of stuff certainly would not be above exageration.

I've know Dave awhile now and have had some nice "off the record" conversations with him over the years. Dave is a straight shooter in this kind of environment so I would not be surprised if he didn't open up a bit, but at the same time, he's a pretty smart guy so I would be surprised if he actually came out and said Cabrera was a juicer.

I'm sure Dave will be alot more careful in the future about who he's talking to once this all hits the fan.

True this.

You read stuff like this and you now know why Cal kept it 100% Vanilla. In this day and age, things "off the cuff" or an informal setting might come back to bite you.

[mcgraw238]

Sounds like DT rewarded the fan luncheon winner with some straight candor befitting of such an event. I'm sure that such openness was not expressed with the intent it get posted in an article on the internet. I'm sure there will be no further lunch contests; Fool me once,...

[Mackus]

True this.

You read stuff like this and you now know why Cal kept it 100% Vanilla. In this day and age, things "off the cuff" or an informal setting might come back to bite you.I wish we could hear stuff like this without the current players whining about it, though.

Nobody hear is really upset that Dave said this, are they? We're just worried that the players won't like that he said it and there will be some negative feedback and perhaps worse performance because of it. I think that's a reasonable fear, but I wish that wasn't the case, because hearing more inside information like this would make following the game more interesting to me. We're upset because of the backlash the comments might cause, not the actual comments, right?

I wish there were some sort of one-way filter, where we as fans could hear what Trembley thinks about his players, what the players think about him and each other, and other stuff like that but without any of the consequences of that information being public ever being able to get back to the players.

Like a Real World: Orioles confessional room, but where none of the players or coaches could watch the show when it was airing.

[Dipper9]

I found one of the MASN blogs.

http://masnsports.com/2009/11/one-liners-from-lunch-with-tre.html

Check out the direct quote about Jones being loud. Quite a bit different than saying "Jones is mouthy" like the other article mentioned. I would say this one quote alone makes that entire other article bullspit!

Here is another...

http://masnsports.com/2009/11/fantasy-winners-enjoy-the-ulti.html

[yamminonemo6]

I found one of the Roch blogs.

http://masnsports.com/2009/11/one-liners-from-lunch-with-tre.html

Check out the direct quote about Jones being loud. Quite a bit different than saying "Jones is mouthy" like the other article mentioned. I would say this one quote alone makes that entire other article bullspit!

Here is another...

http://masnsports.com/2009/11/fantasy-winners-enjoy-the-ulti.html

Those aren't from Roch, but Kate Wheeler. Probably the MASN blogger mentioned in the original "article."

[Dipper9]

Those aren't from Roch, but Kate Wheeler. Probably the MASN blogger mentioned in the original "article."

Thanks. I changed my post.

Either way, the message is still the same...the MASN blogs have actual quotes. The other article...not so much!

[yamminonemo6]

Thanks. I changed my post.

Either way, the message is still the same...the MASN blogs have actual quotes. The other article...not so much!

Oh yea definitely.

I just mentioned this because some wondered if the "MASN blogger" mentioned was Roch or not.

[El Gordo]

Those aren't from Roch, but Kate Wheeler. Probably the MASN blogger mentioned in the original "article."E-mail her and give her a link to the Kates article. Se how her notes compare? :scratchchinhmm:

[sbauer]

E-mail her and give her a link to the Kates article. Se how her notes compare? :scratchchinhmm:

I just got a message from her.



Kate_Wheeler
Just saw it actually, and your instincts are right - Can't believe everything you read

[waroriole]

I just got a message from her.

Did you READ what she wrote.;)

[El Gordo]

I just got a message from her.Thanks.;)
Kate_Wheeler
Just saw it actually, and your instincts are right - Can't believe everything you read

Surprise,surprise!!!:laughlol:

[Ruzious]

Its funny that a lot of people want Dave to be more honest with the media and forthcoming with some interviews, and then when we here what he actually has to say when the gloves come off and then people say that "he shouldn't be saying this outside of the locker room". Damned if you do...damned it you don't.

As a fan, I love hearing this stuff and anything that gives a better understanding of how things actually go.

But, at the same time, you wonder how the players' trust in him would be effected by making some of this stuff public, and if that could have a negative effect then it is probably a bad thing to be saying this.
No employed manager, coach, or GM is ever that honest and forthcoming. If he really said all that, that... is unacceptable.

[El Gordo]

No employed manager, coach, or GM is ever that honest and forthcoming. If he really said all that, that... is unacceptable.Apparently he didn't. See above.

[Ruzious]

Apparently he didn't. See above.
Which post #?

[El Gordo]

Which post #?

#84. Kate Wheeler was the blogger from MASN.

[RShack]

Sorry, I shouldn't have said "4th outfielder". The article's exact words were "No real future with the team outside of defensive replacement".
Well, that's what I thought he thought last year, which I didn't like.
But then he was quoted as saying Pie should bat 2nd vs. RHP.
So, either DT is flip-flopping, or else he's being misquoted somewhere, or else something else... but something here just doesn't add up...

[RShack]

It's funny, I just read about his grandfather in the Paul Richards bio. Lee MacPhail, Sr. was described as "...a belligerent drunk known as 'The Roaring Redhead'...".

Of course, Andy dad Lee, Jr. was said to be as different from his father "as a double is from a double play", so who knows.
I think you meant Larry, not Lee Sr.
Grandfather = Larry
Father = Lee

They're both "Leland Stanford" on their birth certificates, which is the name of the guy who started the famous university. Dunno why Larry was named after him...

[carolinaoriole]

What surprises me is that anyone believes that this actually happened.

[byrdz]

I found one of the MASN blogs.

http://masnsports.com/2009/11/one-liners-from-lunch-with-tre.html

Check out the direct quote about Jones being loud. Quite a bit different than saying "Jones is mouthy" like the other article mentioned. I would say this one quote alone makes that entire other article bullspit!

Here is another...

http://masnsports.com/2009/11/fantasy-winners-enjoy-the-ulti.html

Good catch mang!

[NewMarketSean]

It's all context.

I am mostly surprised that Bill James would allow this to be posted, for one.

[sakata_catching]

I am mostly surprised that Bill James would allow this to be posted, for one.
I was thinking the same.

I wonder if Kate Wheeler might be persuaded to post a rebuttal here?

[EL_Coyote]

I was thinking the same.

I wonder if Kate Wheeler might be persuaded to post a rebuttal here?

It really might be nice to see someone worthy of respect and reading to squash garbage like this.

[Stotle]

I was thinking the same.

I wonder if Kate Wheeler might be persuaded to post a rebuttal here?

Maybe, just don't ask Roch. I think it's clear from his comment section that he doesn't want to be bothered with it.

[Flip217]

Maybe I'm wrong but this seems like much ado about nothing. And even if Trembley said everything the way it's been presented, which now appears to be doubt according to the Kate Wheeler info, I'm still not upset or shocked or surprised very much.

I don't know what sort of relationship Trembley has with Jones -- could he say to his face "Ah, you didn't deserve that Gold Glove!", and Jones would just shrug and tell him to go jump, and they'd both laugh about it? I can't say.

Was Cabrera taking 'roids? I don't know, but if Trembley believed he was, I don't really have a problem with him saying so. The days of keeping quiet about that stuff is, and should be, over.

Kam not wanting to pitch? Roberts dogging it? I can see reasons for and against bringing it up in public, but again, I'm not privy to their relationships, so I can't say if it's malicious and spiteful, or good natured ribbing, or what.

Again, maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see this as a big deal.

[Dipper9]

Good catch mang!

Thank You...thank you. Its nice being able to come to the defense of DT with actual evidence pointing to this article being bogus!

I feel a little like Tony Soprano today! :laughlol:

[NewMarketSean]

I bet Dave said something like "I felt Jonsey deserved the GG more in 2008". Somehow that = Jones didn't deserve the GG.

[wickedwitch]

I'd want direct quotes in context before evaluating this. Even direct quotes can be twisted, and this doesn't even have that.

[Dipper9]

Maybe, just don't ask Roch. I think it's clear from his comment section that he doesn't want to be bothered with it.

Can you explain what you mean? I don't see this being discussed anywhere in Roch's blogs?

[sakata_catching]

Can you explain what you mean? I don't see this being discussed anywhere in Roch's blogs?
Towards the bottom of the comments, Dip.

KyleProBoller said:
Hey Roch,

Are you aware of the write-up some contest winner did on his conversation with Trembley? Some pretty nasty stuff about current and former O's players in there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just saw it. Ridiculous. I've known Trembley a lot of years and I can't imagine him saying anything like that to a bunch of fans, even in an informal setting. The lunch was off-the-record and I assume no one was taking notes. Suddenly, weeks later he's being paraphrased. Kate, who does the O's Buzz blog, was there and didn't hear Trembley say these things. That's my last comment on it. But I know you also asked Melewski because it's a slow day for controversy. - Roch

January 21, 2010 1:57 PM

[sbauer]

Can you explain what you mean? I don't see this being discussed anywhere in Roch's blogs?
Here's the comment.


KyleProBoller said:
Hey Roch,

Are you aware of the write-up some contest winner did on his conversation with Trembley? Some pretty nasty stuff about current and former O's players in there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just saw it. Ridiculous. I've known Trembley a lot of years and I can't imagine him saying anything like that to a bunch of fans, even in an informal setting. The lunch was off-the-record and I assume no one was taking notes. Suddenly, weeks later he's being paraphrased. Kate, who does the O's Buzz blog, was there and didn't hear Trembley say these things. That's my last comment on it. But I know you also asked Melewski because it's a slow day for controversy. - Roch

January 21, 2010 1:57 PM

[Flip217]

The lunch was off-the-record and I assume no one was taking notes. Suddenly, weeks later he's being paraphrased. Kate, who does the O's Buzz blog, was there and didn't hear Trembley say these things.

Well, that should put this baby to bed.

Sorry Drungo, no 8000-page thread this time!

[Ruzious]

#84. Kate Wheeler was the blogger from MASN.
Dave is saved by the blogger. :)

[Dipper9]

Steve Melewski also answered the question in his blog...

KyleProBoller said:
Steve,

You catch the posted excerpts a contest winner/writer posted from a conversation he had with Trembley? He basically told the guy that Roberts admitted to lollygagging last year, that Jones didn't deserve the gold glove and that he's mouthy, that Kam Mickolio refused to pitch on back-to-back days, that he views Pie as only a defensive replacement with no real future on the team, and that Daniel Cabrera was a PED user.

This stuff is really out there on the web and very credible Orioles bloggers are vouching for it.
_____________________
I did see that at O's Hangout. I know this, that lunch was for contest winners on our web site and Trembley flew back from Florida that day just to meet with the winners. It was in no way an interview period (Roch and I were not even allowed to be there) and was to be an informal meeting with Dave and fans.

I don't know anything about the gentleman who posted such comments, but I would question them greatly. This lunch was weeks ago and again, it was not an interview or a conversation with this guy as you say, but a lunch with several people.

I've never heard Trembley talk in those terms on or off the record about players and seriously question the validity of this. If someone posted quotes from that lunch, no matter the quotes, they were irresponsible to say the least.

Steve

January 21, 2010 1:15 PM

[Mike B]

Well it wasn't in public really, it was to a select group of individuals invited to a lunch with DT.

Good Point and I would be willing to bet this will not be a contest award in the future.

[Tony-OH]

Steve Melewski also answered the question in his blog...

KyleProBoller said:
Steve,

You catch the posted excerpts a contest winner/writer posted from a conversation he had with Trembley? He basically told the guy that Roberts admitted to lollygagging last year, that Jones didn't deserve the gold glove and that he's mouthy, that Kam Mickolio refused to pitch on back-to-back days, that he views Pie as only a defensive replacement with no real future on the team, and that Daniel Cabrera was a PED user.

This stuff is really out there on the web and very credible Orioles bloggers are vouching for it.
_____________________
I did see that at O's Hangout. I know this, that lunch was for contest winners on our web site and Trembley flew back from Florida that day just to meet with the winners. It was in no way an interview period (Roch and I were not even allowed to be there) and was to be an informal meeting with Dave and fans.

I don't know anything about the gentleman who posted such comments, but I would question them greatly. This lunch was weeks ago and again, it was not an interview or a conversation with this guy as you say, but a lunch with several people.

I've never heard Trembley talk in those terms on or off the record about players and seriously question the validity of this. If someone posted quotes from that lunch, no matter the quotes, they were irresponsible to say the least.

Steve

January 21, 2010 1:15 PM

Where is this guy getting this stuff from. Who are the credible bloggers vouching for this guy? What are the credible sources he is talking about? This was one yahoo who tried to make himself a name by paraphrasing a guy in an off the record conversation. The only surprise in all of this is that Bill James would let this guy write on his site and drag his good name through the mud like this.

[AlbNYfan]

Have trouble believing this.....paraphrasing is dangerous. If it's true, I would probably ask for his resignation, and I have been a supporter of DT in the past. Were they filling him with liquor??? Just very poor judgement. The clubhouse should be a safe place, with open discussion with no fear of leaks.

[Greg Pappas]

I'm pleased to read that Melewski & Roch are dismissing this, as well as Kate Wheeler. I'm not sure that this thread has run it's course, but it has for me.

[sbauer]

Where is this guy getting this stuff from. Who are the credible bloggers vouching for this guy? What are the credible sources he is talking about? This was one yahoo who tried to make himself a name by paraphrasing a guy in an off the record conversation. The only surprise in all of this is that Bill James would let this guy write on his site and drag his good name through the mud like this.

KyleProBoller posts this stuff all the time. He's a regular of Roch's blog that posts non-sense and other BS.

[ChrisAF79]

KyleProBoller posts this stuff all the time. He's a regular of Roch's blog that posts non-sense and other BS.
Maybe it's our buddy OldFan? :D

[sbauer]

Can't believe this guy Sean won a lunch, and then wrote what he did. What a pathetic thing to do.

Wonder if the Orioles are requesting to have it removed.

[DrungoHazewood]

It's all context.

I am mostly surprised that Bill James would allow this to be posted, for one.


Where is this guy getting this stuff from. Who are the credible bloggers vouching for this guy? What are the credible sources he is talking about? This was one yahoo who tried to make himself a name by paraphrasing a guy in an off the record conversation. The only surprise in all of this is that Bill James would let this guy write on his site and drag his good name through the mud like this.

I get the impression that Bill James' site is not exactly a finely-tuned operation with lots of oversight and staff. I would be surprised if he knew the article was going up, almost certainly didn't review it beforehand, and he may not have even seen it yet.

And, yes, that might come back to bite him.

[Frobby]

Thanks. I changed my post.

Either way, the message is still the same...the MASN blogs have actual quotes. The other article...not so much!

Remind me, who owns MASN? Do you think they might just have a tendency to whitewash anything controversial?

I don't think Trembley probably worded some of the things he said the way it was portrayed in the billjamesonline article. However, I expect he had his guard down and said some things he simply never would say in a formal interview setting. Putting aside the ethics of the guy who reported them, I suspect Trembley did make some comments along the lines reported here, and that was not a very smart thing to do on his part. I just hope the players he commented on don't get wind of it, but in this day and age, someone probably is going to bring it to their attention.

[Stotle]

I get the impression that Bill James' site is not exactly a finely-tuned operation with lots of oversight and staff. I would be surprised if he knew the article was going up, almost certainly didn't review it beforehand, and he may not have even seen it yet.

And, yes, that might come back to bite him.

Not a member -- is there room to comment on the piece? Contact the author?

[DrungoHazewood]

Well, that should put this baby to bed.

Sorry Drungo, no 8000-page thread this time!

That doesn't bother me in the least.

[DrungoHazewood]

Not a member -- is there room to comment on the piece? Contact the author?

Yes, there is a comment section. I already posted a question asking if there was any kind of NDA. I can go back and ask for a comment on Kate Wheeler's response.

[Dipper9]

Where is this guy getting this stuff from. Who are the credible bloggers vouching for this guy? What are the credible sources he is talking about? This was one yahoo who tried to make himself a name by paraphrasing a guy in an off the record conversation. The only surprise in all of this is that Bill James would let this guy write on his site and drag his good name through the mud like this.

I know this "KyleBoller" guy gives Roch a hard time in the blog all the time, so as we like to say on the OH....take his comments with a grain of salt! ;)

[Dipper9]

Remind me, who owns MASN? Do you think they might just have a tendency to whitewash anything controversial?

I don't think Trembley probably worded some of the things he said the way it was portrayed in the billjamesonline article. However, I expect he had his guard down and said some things he simply never would say in a formal interview setting. Putting aside the ethics of the guy who reported them, I suspect Trembley did make some comments along the lines reported here, and that was not a very smart thing to do on his part. I just hope the players he commented on don't get wind of it, but in this day and age, someone probably is going to bring it to their attention.

Well, the MASN blogs were from November, with actual quotes. This latest article I am assuming was from today. So I am more willing to believe the quoted article from when the event occurred rather than someone paraphrasing the event two months later.

Its not like the MASN blogs came out today just to refute the other story!

[Stotle]

Yes, there is a comment section. I already posted a question asking if there was any kind of NDA. I can go back and ask for a comment on Kate Wheeler's response.

Whatever -- no need for you to be placed in the position of message board "go-fer". But if you're also interested, please feel free to pass along the response.

I tend to agree with Frobby that there was almost certainly something said along the lines of what the author posted -- the actual phrasing by the author being up for interpretation. It also rubs me the wrong way that the MASN crowd expects readers to simply ignore seamingly valid sources on the net.

I mean, this isn't "Billy's and Frank's Cool Baseball Blog". It's a website owned/run by one of the more respected baseball minds around. Roch in particular did the same thing with the Dominican League article -- as if readers shouldn't take seriously an ESPN piece by a well respected reporter of Latin American baseball.

[Stotle]

Well, the MASN blogs were from November, with actual quotes. This latest article I am assuming was from today. So I am more willing to believe the quoted article from when the event occurred rather than someone paraphrasing the event two months later.

Its not like the MASN blogs came out today just to refute the other story!

But who says the MASN blogs are all-inclusive. I mean, I could certainly see a MASN blogger omitting some quotes as easily as I could see a writer at an established site flatly making things up.

[RShack]

I suspect Trembley did make some comments along the lines reported here, and that was not a very smart thing to do on his part.
Well, maybe he did and maybe he didn't. This is the main problem with iffy reports of what somebody said without any actual journalism being involved: People wind up assuming that the truth is "somewhere in the middle"... which is the same thing as saying "somewhat guilty".

There is no actual basis for that assumption, but it results in somebody looking bad in the media when we don't really know what the hell he said. Even if you think DT didn't quite say it, but kinda-sorta meant it, then it's just another case of assuming somebody is guilty until proven innocent, and you're just talking about the finer points of how guilty. Which IMO isn't right. (Not aiming this at you in particular, but at this kind of thing in general... although this is one case where I wish your lawyer-self did show itself a little bit more.)

[Tony-OH]

Remind me, who owns MASN? Do you think they might just have a tendency to whitewash anything controversial?


I know both Roch and Steve and although I'm sure they are both very aware who ultimately signs their checks, neither one are told what to write by the Orioles nor are they used to whitewash anything.

[Stotle]

Well, maybe he did and maybe he didn't. This is the main problem with iffy reports of what somebody said without any actual journalism being involved: People wind up assuming that the truth is "somewhere in the middle"... which is the same thing as saying "somewhat guilty".

There is no actual basis for that assumption, but it results in somebody looking bad in the media when we don't really know what the hell he said. Even if you think DT didn't quite say it, but kinda-sorta meant it, then it's just another case of assuming somebody is guilty until proven innocent, and you're just talking about the finer points of how guilty. Which IMO isn't right. (Not aiming this at you in particular, but at this kind of thing in general... although this is one case where I wish your lawyer-self did show itself a little bit more.)

I agree with this in that it's unfair to get hot and bothered about what Trembley reportedly said when the author of the piece doesn't even state what Trembley ACTUALLY said (instead, paraphrasing with no real confirmation avialable to the reader).

My issue with the MASN folks is that even when there is actual journalism (see ESPN piece with quotes about BAL's limited involvment in the DPL) they seem to get angry when readers assume an anti-Orioles piece has some validity to it.

Honestly. I know the blogs are a more informal way of communicating with their readers, but is it so hard to say something along the lines of "That doesn't seem right -- I'll see if there's anything to it," rather than, "Geez you people need to stop believing everything out on the internet -- YOU'RE GIVING ME A HEADACHE!"

[RShack]

My issue with the MASN folks is that even when there is actual journalism (see ESPN piece with quotes about BAL's limited involvment in the DPL) they seem to get angry when readers assume an anti-Orioles piece has some validity to it.

Honestly. I know the blogs are a more informal way of communicating with their readers, but is it so hard to say something along the lines of "That doesn't seem right -- I'll see if there's anything to it," rather than, "Geez you people need to stop believing everything out on the internet -- YOU'RE GIVING ME A HEADACHE!"
I agree with all of that.

But there's no reason to start with that, and then somehow conclude that DT is "probably somewhat guilty" on the basis of zero actual quotes. Which is kinda the way Frobby was heading with this (or at least that's the way I read his comment anyway...I'm not trying to put words in Frobby's mouth...)

[ScottieBaseball]

I know both Roch and Steve and although I'm sure they are both very aware who ultimately signs their checks, neither one are told what to write by the Orioles nor are they used to whitewash anything.

^
This. I'm not questioning either guy's integrity. I know for a fact Roch wouldn't have accepted the job if he was going to be censored. And I've never had a reason to believe Steve's written or said anything he didn't believe.

[Dipper9]

I agree with this in that it's unfair to get hot and bothered about what Trembley reportedly said when the author of the piece doesn't even state what Trembley ACTUALLY said (instead, paraphrasing with no real confirmation avialable to the reader).

My issue with the MASN folks is that even when there is actual journalism (see ESPN piece with quotes about BAL's limited involvment in the DPL) they seem to get angry when readers assume an anti-Orioles piece has some validity to it.

Honestly. I know the blogs are a more informal way of communicating with their readers, but is it so hard to say something along the lines of "That doesn't seem right -- I'll see if there's anything to it," rather than, "Geez you people need to stop believing everything out on the internet -- YOU'RE GIVING ME A HEADACHE!"

I hear ya. But let's take one example of THIS particular instance. On the blog, there were quotes from someone asking Trembley who is outspoken on the team, to which he responded "Jones, Jones, Jones."

In the article, the writer took that same context and changed it into Trembley saying Jones is mouthy.

Now, lets say that when they were asking Trembley the question and he responded with his quotes about Jones being loud, he then followed it up with "Yeah, Jones is really mouthy" as he is chuckling and laughing. That si quite different than the context of the article where it makes Trembley's comments seem like he is calling Jones our for "being mouthy."

That one instance explains perfectly why you don't write articles without quotes, and also why context is SO imortant even with direct quotes.

Either way, even with the article's legitimacy in question, I can GUARANTEE you this will become fodder for our "friends" on the radio station to bash Trembley, the Orioles, and in some way Peter Angelos.

[Stotle]

I agree with all of that.

But there's no reason to start with that, and then somehow conclude that DT is "probably somewhat guilty" on the basis of zero actual quotes. Which is kinda the way Frobby was heading with this (or at least that's the way I read his comment anyway...I'm not trying to put words in Frobby's mouth...)

I honestly don't know enough about James's site to say one way or the other whether we should assume credibility with regards to the snipets posted by Drungo. Maybe "somewhat guilty" is reasonable, maybe it's all but certain, and maybe it's a big stretch. I'd need to know more about the source (though the framing of the info is certainly suspect, as has been noted various times in this thread).

[TonySoprano]

Remind me, who owns MASN? Do you think they might just have a tendency to whitewash anything controversial?Peter G. Angelos owns MASN.

A few years ago, a group of OHers (I was not invited :angryfire:;) ) got to meet with Flanagan over dinner. They were able to report back some, but not all, of what was discussed, with some being off-the-record. I'll say again, I'll be real surprised if that wasn't the case here.

On the record, this was Dave's reaction to Jones' gold glove

"You look at where this guy has come from in one year and the amount of improvement that he's made, it speaks very highly for what we feel about him," Orioles manager Dave Trembley said. "The guy is an All-Star and a Gold Glover in his second full season, and his upside hasn't even been reached yet." source - Balt. Sun. Nov 11, 2009 (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bal-sp.orioles11nov11,0,2230797.story)

[Stotle]

I hear ya. But let's take one example of THIS particular instance. On the blog, there were quotes from someone asking Trembley who is outspoken on the team, to which he responded "Jones, Jones, Jones."

In the article, the writer took that same context and changed it into Trembley saying Jones is mouthy.

Now, lets say that when they were asking Trembley the question and he responded with his quotes about Jones being loud, he then followed it up with "Yeah, Jones is really mouthy" as he is chuckling and laughing. That si quite different than the context of the article where it makes Trembley's comments seem like he is calling Jones our for "being mouthy."

That one instance explains perfectly why you don't write articles without quotes, and also why context is SO imortant even with direct quotes.

Either way, even with the article's legitimacy in question, I can GUARANTEE you this will become fodder for our "friends" on the radio station to bash Trembley, the Orioles, and in some way Peter Angelos.

I don't disagree with any of this. I think it's hard to tell much of anything without knowing more about the source and without having a source using actual quotes.

[RShack]

Maybe "somewhat guilty" is reasonable, maybe it's all but certain, and maybe it's a big stretch. I'd need to know more about the source (though the framing of the info is certainly suspect, as has been noted various times in this thread).
Well, there you are...

Here's all I know: Next year, the O's are gonna have a tape recorder on the table...

[GoldGlove21]

Trembley came out and said that Reimold, Jones, and Markakis is his starting outfielder. It seems from his quote that he plans to run that combination of players out most nights. That would indeed make Pie a 4th outfielder or in some cases a defensive replacement. Trembley seems down on Pie and I get the feeling his opinion of Pie is tied to more than just his upside.

Everyone here saw that Roberts was taking plays off as we started to slide in the standings. No real shock there.

Cabrera had no control of his pitches or his emotions for that matter.

While it might not be smart for Trembley to make those comments in front of anyone, the person posting the article has no real leg to stand on. Trembley can just deny the comments. This is really a non-issue for me. If Trembley sat down with MASN and blasted these guys then I would hold him liable. I will chalk this up as a stupid thing to do, but this should not cost him his job even if the relationship with Pie continues to deteriate IMO.

[olehippi]

Most of this is not surprising except for a rookie balking at doing anything. IMO if what DT says is true about Mikolio I would show him the door ASAP. Apparently some of the loser mentality of Baez already rubbed off on him.

Everyone bashing Mickolio (including apparently Trembley) seems to forget that he was nursing an injury part of last year:

http://www.fanfeedr.com/mlb/2009/09/18/mickolio-placed-on-dl-with-inflammation

And after watching this interview, I come away with the impression that Mickolio isn't the kind of kid who would say "no" to his manager unless he was hurt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPIbnLFNSmU

And call me a skeptic about the content of this Trembley article.

[Frobby]

I know both Roch and Steve and although I'm sure they are both very aware who ultimately signs their checks, neither one are told what to write by the Orioles nor are they used to whitewash anything.

I have plenty of respect for Roch and Melewski, not to mention you. But I am sure there are times you get unvarnished opinions from your sources within the Orioles organization, and don't report them on this website. They talk to you because they know you will exercise discretion about how much detail to report, how to phrase it, whether to use direct quotes or speak more generally, whether to indentify the source or not, and whether to check back with the source to make sure they are comfortable with you printing what they said. If you didn't act in that way, your sources wouldn't be talking to you in an open and honest manner for long. And as careful as you are, I'm sure Roch and Melewski are even more careful not to run something that may emabarass the organization without a really good reason, because of who signs their paychecks.

The guy who wrote this stuff doesn't have that kind of sensibililty. He doesn't know Trembley, he's never going to talk to him again, and he may be naive enough not to understand some of the basic unwritten rules of journalism. But it certainly doesn't seem like he has an anti-Trembley agenda; if anything, he likes him. So I doubt he just made stuff up out of whole cloth.

[OrioleMagic]

What I draw from this article is the apparent admission of knowledge that Cabrera was juicing. If this is accepted at face value, it flies in the face of the recent stance of Tony LaRussa on Mark McGwire's steroid use and supports the position of Jose Canseco in that management and ownership knew about use.

Granted all of this hinges on the credibility of the article.

[Icterus galbula]

What I draw from this article is the apparent admission of knowledge that Cabrera was juicing. If this is accepted at face value, it flies in the face of the recent stance of Tony LaRussa on Mark McGwire's steroid use and supports the position of Jose Canseco in that management and ownership knew about use.

Granted all of this hinges on the credibility of the article.


Eh, I'm not sure you can make any generalizations such as that, even if the article is fully credible. I think it all depends on the manager/management. Some are probably fully on board with "don't ask, don't tell," others might be more willing to suspect and witness.

[Mike B]

What I draw from this article is the apparent admission of knowledge that Cabrera was juicing. If this is accepted at face value, it flies in the face of the recent stance of Tony LaRussa on Mark McGwire's steroid use and supports the position of Jose Canseco in that management and ownership knew about use.

Granted all of this hinges on the credibility of the article.

I thinkyou are stretching a little. I hate the idea of paraphrasing because it normally leads to some stretching of the words. These public criticisms seem a little outof character for DT.

[Icterus galbula]

The guy who wrote this stuff doesn't have that kind of sensibililty. He doesn't know Trembley, he's never going to talk to him again, and he may be naive enough not to understand some of the basic unwritten rules of journalism. But it certainly doesn't seem like he has an anti-Trembley agenda; if anything, he likes him. So I doubt he just made stuff up out of whole cloth.



I also doubt he made it all up.

At the same time, if you were an aspiring baseball writer who was toiling away in relative anonymity, wouldn't you be eager to get your name out there? If you've got a lil bit of juicy news in your hip pocket, you might try and make it as juicy as you can get away with.

[Frobby]

I also doubt he made it all up.

At the same time, if you were an aspiring baseball writer who was toiling away in relative anonymity, wouldn't you be eager to get your name out there? If you've got a lil bit of juicy news in your hip pocket, you might try and make it as juicy as you can get away with.

Like I said before, I seriously doubt Trembley worded things the way they are worded in this article. But I'd bet that the general sentiments expressed are at least semi-accurate.

[Lucky Jim]

I think there is literally no way that Trembley made a reference to D-Cab and steroids.

[RShack]

Like I said before, I seriously doubt Trembley worded things the way they are worded in this article. But I'd bet that the general sentiments expressed are at least semi-accurate.
Because the guy sounds like a fan in various places? Everybody around here is a fan, and people say completely unfounded stuff all the time. It's routine for people misquote AM in very meaningful ways, even non-morons do it, and that's when they have ready access to a written record of the quotes.

Not sure why you're discounting the possibility that this guy is out to make a big splash with his one-and-only brush with a big league manager. Or the possibility that he doesn't know the difference between what DT said and what he wrote; not everybody appreciates that kind of difference. Just ask a cop about what witnesses say 15 just minutes after the fact.

Seems like you're quite ready to believe that DT told a complete stranger that (a) DCab was amping on roids, and (b) that the management of The Baltimore Oriole Baseball Club knew all about it and let it continue. Do you believe that? And if you don't believe it, why do you believe the rest of it?

ps: I am not saying we have any evidence that DT didn't say this stuff. Just saying that we have no evidence of any kind. So, it's surprising to me that you believe some random guy dishing dirt over somebody who's character you do have some kind of clue about, that's all...

[TGO]

I think there is literally no way that Trembley made a reference to D-Cab and steroids.

Let me make up something I think is plausible:

"Cabrera had a tendency to lose his head on the mound and go head hunting. We could never understand it. He was such a calm, nice kid, but out there when things didn't go his way, it was almost like roid rage or something."

No one ever actually said that. But imagine he said something like that. Can you get from there to Cabrera juicing?

[Art Wing]

I am more suprised by DT reading habits. I never would have thought, watching him manage, that he was so into the stat side of baseball. I would think he would not be as in love with the Hit and Run for example.

Other then that I am not suprised by anything he said other then the part about Kam. I am however shocked that he said it.

Funny, but this was one of the biggest shockers for me too.

If I was Adam Jones, I would be hurt by those comments.

If I was a Baltimore Oriole player, I would be concerned that my manager tells complete strangers career threatening information and the like.

I would imagine that Dave would have to address all of this at some point.

[RShack]

Let me make up something I think is plausible:

"Cabrera had a tendency to lose his head on the mound and go head hunting."
That's not plausible. He did that once. It was not a trait, it was something he did once.

[El Gordo]

Remind me, who owns MASN? Do you think they might just have a tendency to whitewash anything controversial?

I don't think Trembley probably worded some of the things he said the way it was portrayed in the billjamesonline article. However, I expect he had his guard down and said some things he simply never would say in a formal interview setting. Putting aside the ethics of the guy who reported them, I suspect Trembley did make some comments along the lines reported here, and that was not a very smart thing to do on his part. I just hope the players he commented on don't get wind of it, but in this day and age, someone probably is going to bring it to their attention.Some one could hear you say this and report out of context that Frobby thinks DT is stupid. We have no idea what DT said or didn't say, and because the Bill James site is subscription, many people are only reacting to Drungo's excerpts. I happen to have a subscription and IMO if you read the whole article, by the time you get to the part about the lunch the guy has lost almost any credibility he might have had. DT could have easily said something like "I'm happy for AJ winnng the GG, but for my money Gutierrez is the best CF in the game." It comes out DT thinks AJ doesn't deserve the GG. :rolleyestf:

[CrimsonTribe]

I think there is literally no way that Trembley made a reference to D-Cab and steroids.

Personally, when I read the DCab juicing part, the first thing that popped into my mind was that DCab had gotten a new Jack LaLanne Power Juicer (http://www.amazon.com/Jack-LaLannes-JLPJB-Juicing-Machine/dp/B00067R5X2) and was distracted by the thought of heading home and making new and exotic juices. Did no one else think that? Seems pretty obvious to me.

[PaulFolk]

Here's my two cents (if anyone cares what I think):

I actually know the author, and I don't believe he would just blatantly make things up. I tend to believe he accurately portrayed the comments, direct quotes or not. The speculation that he's trying to stir up dirt or get himself a gig as a sportswriter just aren't true. Besides, if you read the whole article (you have to have a subscription), it's over 4,000 words long, and only one small section is about Trembley's comments at the luncheon. This isn't a case of "I just got some juicy scoop, I'm going to post it to get Trembley in trouble!" If anything, the article is complimentary towards Trembley, how he's a quality baseball guy who's living his dream job and isn't afraid to be honest.

I think this was simply a case of Trembley believing that his comments were going to be off the record. And they probably were-- for MASN (which is why the MASN blogger can't confirm any of these comments). But there were other people at the luncheon, too, and they didn't necessarily have any obligation to keep the comments off the record. Actually, if someone really cared strongly enough, they could try to contact the other people at the luncheon to either confirm or deny Trembley's comments. But honestly, it's probably not worth the effort. There's no reason this needs to turn into some kind of scandal. Trembley often speaks candidly, and it appears that he did so here, but I don't see his comments as a big deal.

[cindyluvsbrady]

Wow. The veil comes off.


The comments about Pie dissapoint me most. It seems like Trembley more or less has his mind made up about what kind of player he'll become.

The Cabrera "juicing like crazy" is quite a story too.


[EDIT: Now that this account is being seriously doubted, its unfair for me to assume that Trembley has his mind made up about Pie.]

I refuse to belive that about Daniel!:mad:

[olehippi]

Here's my two cents (if anyone cares what I think):

I actually know the author, and I don't believe he would just blatantly make things up. I tend to believe he accurately portrayed the comments, direct quotes or not. The speculation that he's trying to stir up dirt or get himself a gig as a sportswriter just aren't true. Besides, if you read the whole article (you have to have a subscription), it's over 4,000 words long, and only one small section is about Trembley's comments at the luncheon. This isn't a case of "I just got some juicy scoop, I'm going to post it to get Trembley in trouble!" If anything, the article is complimentary towards Trembley, how he's a quality baseball guy who's living his dream job and isn't afraid to be honest.

I think this was simply a case of Trembley believing that his comments were going to be off the record. And they probably were-- for MASN (which is why the MASN blogger can't confirm any of these comments). But there were other people at the luncheon, too, and they didn't necessarily have any obligation to keep the comments off the record. Actually, if someone really cared strongly enough, they could try to contact the other people at the luncheon to either confirm or deny Trembley's comments. But honestly, it's probably not worth the effort. There's no reason this needs to turn into some kind of scandal. Trembley often speaks candidly, and it appears that he did so here, but I don't see his comments as a big deal.


Darn it, Paul.....logic and common sense have no place on OH. Stop it !!

:D

[byrdz]

Here's my two cents (if anyone cares what I think):

I actually know the author, and I don't believe he would just blatantly make things up. I tend to believe he accurately portrayed the comments, direct quotes or not. The speculation that he's trying to stir up dirt or get himself a gig as a sportswriter just aren't true. Besides, if you read the whole article (you have to have a subscription), it's over 4,000 words long, and only one small section is about Trembley's comments at the luncheon. This isn't a case of "I just got some juicy scoop, I'm going to post it to get Trembley in trouble!" If anything, the article is complimentary towards Trembley, how he's a quality baseball guy who's living his dream job and isn't afraid to be honest.

I think this was simply a case of Trembley believing that his comments were going to be off the record. And they probably were-- for MASN (which is why the MASN blogger can't confirm any of these comments). But there were other people at the luncheon, too, and they didn't necessarily have any obligation to keep the comments off the record. Actually, if someone really cared strongly enough, they could try to contact the other people at the luncheon to either confirm or deny Trembley's comments. But honestly, it's probably not worth the effort. There's no reason this needs to turn into some kind of scandal. Trembley often speaks candidly, and it appears that he did so here, but I don't see his comments as a big deal.

Agreed.

Well it sounds like you're vouching for the writer and that's good enough for me.

DCab on steroids is the most shocking news, not the fact that he did it, but surprising that DT would bring it up. Even in a casual lunch with fans.

[El Gordo]

Here's my two cents (if anyone cares what I think):

I actually know the author, and I don't believe he would just blatantly make things up. I tend to believe he accurately portrayed the comments, direct quotes or not. The speculation that he's trying to stir up dirt or get himself a gig as a sportswriter just aren't true. Besides, if you read the whole article (you have to have a subscription), it's over 4,000 words long, and only one small section is about Trembley's comments at the luncheon. This isn't a case of "I just got some juicy scoop, I'm going to post it to get Trembley in trouble!" If anything, the article is complimentary towards Trembley, how he's a quality baseball guy who's living his dream job and isn't afraid to be honest.

I think this was simply a case of Trembley believing that his comments were going to be off the record. And they probably were-- for MASN (which is why the MASN blogger can't confirm any of these comments). But there were other people at the luncheon, too, and they didn't necessarily have any obligation to keep the comments off the record. Actually, if someone really cared strongly enough, they could try to contact the other people at the luncheon to either confirm or deny Trembley's comments. But honestly, it's probably not worth the effort. There's no reason this needs to turn into some kind of scandal. Trembley often speaks candidly, and it appears that he did so here, but I don't see his comments as a big deal.I read the article too. That's why I discounted pretty mch everything he claimed to have heard DT say. I don't think he is making things up, I just think he has a hard time expressing himself with any kind of clarity. I don't know about you Paul, but if I was this guy's English teacher, and he handed this in, I'd have to give him an F. What does any of this mean?:confused:

" What you don’t get used to, and what you can’t easily overcome, is the heartbreak that comes with the depressingly frequent reminders that baseball isn’t a magical sport. It doesn’t escape the same limitation that plagues every other game. It doesn’t because it can’t; escape is cut off by its very structure. Baseball, like any other game, needs players. And baseball players, despite what this episode of TV may have suggested, have always been human beings.

Human beings do a lot of messed-up crap to each other. They actually do far worse than that, but I’ve always been under the impression that this is a family website, so for now, they do “messed-up crap.” They routinely do the worst stuff to the people closest to them, the people who arguably matter the most. I have what most consider a pessimistic view on life and humanity, so to me this supposed pattern of “hurting the ones you love” is really just a logical mistake. Humans will hurt anyone around them, and will do it unchecked for as long as possible. The fact is “loved ones” are the easiest targets, due to geography and a willingness to suffer indignities the longest. We confuse opportunity with motive all the time, no different here"

I get it, It's not that humans intend to hurt the ones they love, it's that they'll hurt anybody and the ones they love just happen to be close at hand. But I didn't take two paragraphs to say that, and what does any of this have to do with baseball not being a magical sport. Really after slogging through the first 6 or 8 paragraphs it was pretty clear to me that this wasn't writing, it was simply rambling (the kind of thing you might find in a diary, not on a web sight bearing the name of Bil James) that happened to lead by some osmosis into his lunch with DT. By the time I got there I thought I was in Wonderland reading about his encounter with the Mad Hatter.

[SteveA]

I get the impression that Bill James' site is not exactly a finely-tuned operation with lots of oversight and staff. I would be surprised if he knew the article was going up, almost certainly didn't review it beforehand, and he may not have even seen it yet.

And, yes, that might come back to bite him.

Is he still in the employ of one of our division rivals?

A Red Sox employee allows something to be posted on his web site that is incorrect or at least out of context, and which has the potential to sew dissension in the clubhouse of a divisional opponent.

Talk about conflict of interest.

[TGO]

Is he still in the employ of one of our division rivals?

A Red Sox employee allows something to be posted on his web site that is incorrect or at least out of context, and which has the potential to sew dissension in the clubhouse of a divisional opponent.

Talk about conflict of interest.

I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic. If serious, this is sort of tin-foil hat-ish.

[SteveA]

I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic. If serious, this is sort of tin-foil hat-ish.

I was serious.

If you inferred that I felt James had this printed on purpose to sabotage a Red Sox opponent, I was not implying that.

Conflict of interest is about appearances, not actual facts. The mayor accepts a gift card from someone, and then that person benefits from a decision the mayor makes. Was there quid pro quo or would the mayer have made the same decision without the gift cards? No way to know if you can't read minds. It doesn't matter. Just the appearance makes it a conflict of interest situation.

Bill James is (or last I heard, he was), accepting pay from the Boston Red Sox. He also is running an online website and has some level of responsibility for its content, even if he diesn't edit or read every piece. If that web site has something on it that is inaccurate, or in violation of a non-disclosure agreement, that could wind up negatively affecting an opponent of James' employer -- that is a conflict of interest. Even if he did not commission the writer to do that, or even if he hasn't read the article himself.

[TGO]

I was serious.

If you inferred that I felt James had this printed on purpose to sabotage a Red Sox opponent, I was not implying that.

Conflict of interest is about appearances, not actual facts. The mayor accepts a gift card from someone, and then that person benefits from a decision the mayor makes. Was there quid pro quo or would the mayer have made the same decision without the gift cards? No way to know if you can't read minds. It doesn't matter. Just the appearance makes it a conflict of interest situation.

Bill James is (or last I heard, he was), accepting pay from the Boston Red Sox. He also is running an online website and has some level of responsibility for its content, even if he diesn't edit or read every piece. If that web site has something on it that is inaccurate, or in violation of a non-disclosure agreement, that could wind up negatively affecting an opponent of James' employer -- that is a conflict of interest. Even if he did not commission the writer to do that, or even if he hasn't read the article himself.

Okay, that's fair.

I just recently started using the monkeylist ignore feature so I guess I had to find somebody to call a tin-foil hat guy. Daily quota and what not. ;)

[Lucky Jim]

Wonderlad


I think the one thing I've gotten out of this is that my new screen name should be Wonderlad.

[GoOrioles123]

You people are unbelievable. This interview is clearly a fabrication. There are no attributable quotes. Trembley does not sit down with fans and spew garbage like this. I would say I expect more of you people but I have read this site long enough to know this is ordinary.

You guys really think a manager would go off on players on a team he still is manager of to some tool fan wanting to be a writer? Use some common sense people. The writer took his own opinions and made a story out of it.

[GoOrioles123]

Here's my two cents (if anyone cares what I think):

I actually know the author, and I don't believe he would just blatantly make things up. I tend to believe he accurately portrayed the comments, direct quotes or not. The speculation that he's trying to stir up dirt or get himself a gig as a sportswriter just aren't true. Besides, if you read the whole article (you have to have a subscription), it's over 4,000 words long, and only one small section is about Trembley's comments at the luncheon. This isn't a case of "I just got some juicy scoop, I'm going to post it to get Trembley in trouble!" If anything, the article is complimentary towards Trembley, how he's a quality baseball guy who's living his dream job and isn't afraid to be honest.

I think this was simply a case of Trembley believing that his comments were going to be off the record. And they probably were-- for MASN (which is why the MASN blogger can't confirm any of these comments). But there were other people at the luncheon, too, and they didn't necessarily have any obligation to keep the comments off the record. Actually, if someone really cared strongly enough, they could try to contact the other people at the luncheon to either confirm or deny Trembley's comments. But honestly, it's probably not worth the effort. There's no reason this needs to turn into some kind of scandal. Trembley often speaks candidly, and it appears that he did so here, but I don't see his comments as a big deal.

Hey, guess what, your friend is full of poo. Next time he shouldnt interpret what a manager thinks because none of this stuff was certainly said or hinted at. At these luncheons, Trembley does not sit down with individual fans an give them a Q & A session but instead takes questions from a bunch and usually gives his state of the union type speech and express optimism towards the future. People who attend these luncheons and others who know Trembley have chimed in and said this is inaccurate. End of story.

[El Gordo]

Hey, guess what, your friend is full of poo. Next time he shouldnt interpret what a manager thinks because none of this stuff was certainly said or hinted at. At these luncheons, Trembley does not sit down with individual fans an give them a Q & A session but instead takes questions from a bunch and usually gives his state of the union type speech and express optimism towards the future. People who attend these luncheons and others who know Trembley have chimed in and said this is inaccurate. End of story.Wait a minute. I happen to think the writer is challenged in a number of ways, but unless you were there, you have no way of knowing any of this.

[GoOrioles123]

Wait a minute. I happen to think the writer is challenged in a number of ways, but unless you were there, you have no way of knowing any of this.

Maybe I was? None of you would know. I think people should use common sense and disregard these "paraphrased comments". These comments are so unprofessional and illogical that its not believable a manager would say that about his players, especially a high character guy like Trembley. He goes to bat for his players 100% of the time. He certainly wont break that habit for some fan pretending to be a journalist.

[Tony-OH]

I talked with a very well placed source in the warehouse and they assured me these comments attributed to Dave are completely untrue.

"A MASN blogger was present for this luncheon and that none of the harsh comments attributed to Dave are accurate, and in many cases they have been entirely contrived. We have reached out to the website in an effort to have them remove the post and publish a disclaimer… I hope this matter to be resolved shortly, as there is no factual basis to this story, other than this individual attended a luncheon with Dave Trembley. From that point forward, the article is practically fiction.

The item of Jones being mouthy or not deserving a gold glove, the issue of Cabrera throwing at batters or juicing, and others are complete and utter fabrications, not just “taken out of context” comments. They were never even suggested or implied."

[Camden_yardbird]

True or not it doesn't really matter.

If the team wins next year, well, winning solves all problems, all will be forgotten.

And if the team doesn't win next year Trembley will be gone and this won't matter.

[El Gordo]

Maybe I was? None of you would know. I think people should use common sense and disregard these "paraphrased comments". These comments are so unprofessional and illogical that its not believable a manager would say that about his players, especially a high character guy like Trembley. He goes to bat for his players 100% of the time. He certainly wont break that habit for some fan pretending to be a journalist.Well if you were there, why wouldn't you just say so. I doubt that DT would say the things attributed tio him, but that doesn't change the fact that you are simply bloviating, IMO. And to whom do you refer by "you people". If there is one thing about this message board it's that they don't all agree on anything.

[weams]

I refuse to belive that about Daniel!:mad:

I saw him give his shoes to a young fan as he drove out of the player lot.

[NCRaven]

I talked with a very well placed source in the warehouse and they assured me these comments attributed to Dave are completely untrue.

"A MASN blogger was present for this luncheon and that none of the harsh comments attributed to Dave are accurate, and in many cases they have been entirely contrived. We have reached out to the website in an effort to have them remove the post and publish a disclaimer… I hope this matter to be resolved shortly, as there is no factual basis to this story, other than this individual attended a luncheon with Dave Trembley. From that point forward, the article is practically fiction.

The item of Jones being mouthy or not deserving a gold glove, the issue of Cabrera throwing at batters or juicing, and others are complete and utter fabrications, not just “taken out of context” comments. They were never even suggested or implied."

Thanks Tony.

We've had 12 pages of angst over total BS. And this makes the Orioles want to open themselves up to more contact with people like us? We wonder why AM doesn't like to say anything meaningful during interviews. Amazing. :rolleyes:

[JTrea81]

Thanks Tony.

We've had 12 pages of angst over total BS. And this makes the Orioles want to open themselves up to more contact with people like us? We wonder why AM doesn't like to say anything meaningful during interviews. Amazing. :rolleyes:

I don't know, sounds more like the team covering up something. What does this guy have to gain by posting lies, on a respected site like Bill James' is no less?

Do you think they'd actually admit DT threw all those guys under the bus? They got embarassed and are now trying to do some damage control IMO.

I'm thinking it makes MacPhail's decision whether or not to fire Trembley mid-season, if he has to make it, that much clearer...

[Lucky Jim]

I don't know, sounds more like the team covering up something. What does this guy have to gain by posting lies, on a respected site like Bill James' is no less?

Do you think they'd actually admit DT threw all those guys under the bus? They got embarassed and are now trying to do some damage control IMO.

I'm thinking it makes MacPhail's decision whether or not to fire Trembley mid-season, if he has to make it, that much clearer...

I'm pretty sure everyone expected this response.

Did you stop to ask yourself what Trembley would have to gain by saying these things to a bunch of fans?

Why would you possibly trust some blogger you don't know over a guy who - even if you don't like him - seems like a decent guy?

Oh, wait, because it confirms your crackpot theories.

[JBugaboo]

I talked with a very well placed source in the warehouse and they assured me these comments attributed to Dave are completely untrue.

"A MASN blogger was present for this luncheon and that none of the harsh comments attributed to Dave are accurate, and in many cases they have been entirely contrived. We have reached out to the website in an effort to have them remove the post and publish a disclaimer… I hope this matter to be resolved shortly, as there is no factual basis to this story, other than this individual attended a luncheon with Dave Trembley. From that point forward, the article is practically fiction.

The item of Jones being mouthy or not deserving a gold glove, the issue of Cabrera throwing at batters or juicing, and others are complete and utter fabrications, not just “taken out of context” comments. They were never even suggested or implied."

Nice. Now the writer has to face a decision: back down, implicating that he/she is fabricating or extremely distorting what was said at the luncheon, effectively derailing his/her career. Or, stand by the article, in which case I smell a decisive court victory for Angelos & Co. Heck, it probably wouldn't even go to court.

Who all here remembers life before the internet? :o

[BaltimoreTerp]

I know this is cliche, but...

This is why we can't have nice things.

[larrytt]

If there is one thing about this message board it's that they don't all agree on anything.
I agree. We now take you back to our regular programming. :)
-Larrytt

[scOtt]

I don't know, sounds more like the team covering up something. What does this guy have to gain by posting lies, on a respected site like Bill James' is no less?

Do you think they'd actually admit DT threw all those guys under the bus? They got embarassed and are now trying to do some damage control IMO.

I'm thinking it makes MacPhail's decision whether or not to fire Trembley mid-season, if he has to make it, that much clearer...
That's pathetic.


Off to Hangout Club to find that thread.

[RShack]

I don't know, sounds more like the team covering up something. What does this guy have to gain by posting lies, on a respected site like Bill James' is no less?

Do you think they'd actually admit DT threw all those guys under the bus? They got embarassed and are now trying to do some damage control IMO.

I'm thinking it makes MacPhail's decision whether or not to fire Trembley mid-season, if he has to make it, that much clearer...
Is this an act?

[larrytt]

Some of the more opinionated members of O's Hangout should read about Confirmation Bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias). Unfortunately, those who most need to read and think about this will learn the least from it, due to (drum roll please) Confirmation Bias. For others, it'll explain a lot of what you read here and elsewhere. My favorite quote from this page: "Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." Of course, most people simply have weird beliefs and are not skilled in defending them - but that doesn't change their beliefs.
-Larrytt

[Oriole4Life]

I sure as hell hope Felix Pie has a future with this team. Adam Jones "mouthy?" I hardly see him as being arrogant or talking too much. A lot of strange comments...I am sorta skeptical...*edit* which was now confirmed by reading Tony's post. I knew I smelled BS.

I saw someone mention they were thinking about putting Reimold at first and moving Pie to LF. I am all for that.

[JohnnyK27]

I talked with a very well placed source in the warehouse and they assured me these comments attributed to Dave are completely untrue.

"A MASN blogger was present for this luncheon and that none of the harsh comments attributed to Dave are accurate, and in many cases they have been entirely contrived. We have reached out to the website in an effort to have them remove the post and publish a disclaimer… I hope this matter to be resolved shortly, as there is no factual basis to this story, other than this individual attended a luncheon with Dave Trembley. From that point forward, the article is practically fiction.

The item of Jones being mouthy or not deserving a gold glove, the issue of Cabrera throwing at batters or juicing, and others are complete and utter fabrications, not just “taken out of context” comments. They were never even suggested or implied."

I agree if the article is not factual its just garbage. But I remember watching Cabrera pitch on nights where he plunked a guy at a pivitol moment & knowing deep down inside that it was intentional. If fact Daniel often wore his emotions on his sleeve & you could see in his demeanor that he was in the moment. Still just my opinion though.

[sakata_catching]

Note that "SeanKates" is our newest member.

This may make 8000 pages yet.

[Dipper9]

I don't know, sounds more like the team covering up something. What does this guy have to gain by posting lies, on a respected site like Bill James' is no less?

Do you think they'd actually admit DT threw all those guys under the bus? They got embarassed and are now trying to do some damage control IMO.

I'm thinking it makes MacPhail's decision whether or not to fire Trembley mid-season, if he has to make it, that much clearer...

I would respond with "you can't be serious?" but I already know the answer. :rolleyes:

[cindyluvsbrady]

I saw him give his shoes to a young fan as he drove out of the player lot.

That is the Daniel I know and love!:):wedge:

[JTrea81]

Note that "SeanKates" is our newest member.

This may make 8000 pages yet.

Good. I can't believe people want to give the Orioles the benefit of the doubt here.

I want to hear what Sean has to say as he has nothing to gain by posting lies.

[DrungoHazewood]

I talked with a very well placed source in the warehouse and they assured me these comments attributed to Dave are completely untrue.

"A MASN blogger was present for this luncheon and that none of the harsh comments attributed to Dave are accurate, and in many cases they have been entirely contrived. We have reached out to the website in an effort to have them remove the post and publish a disclaimer… I hope this matter to be resolved shortly, as there is no factual basis to this story, other than this individual attended a luncheon with Dave Trembley. From that point forward, the article is practically fiction.

The item of Jones being mouthy or not deserving a gold glove, the issue of Cabrera throwing at batters or juicing, and others are complete and utter fabrications, not just “taken out of context” comments. They were never even suggested or implied."

For whatever it's worth, the article is still up at 8:30 this morning, and in the comments section the author says "...I stand by the above as what happened. 100%." And that he's trying to contact Roch and Melewski.

[DrungoHazewood]

Good. I can't believe people want to give the Orioles the benefit of the doubt here.

I want to hear what Sean has to say as he has nothing to gain by posting lies.

I believe it was larrytt who posted that we all need to look into the definition of "confirmation bias". I don't find any of the reactions here too surprising. Most folks, me included, are surprised that someone said Dave Trembley spoke in this manner about his players because our perception is that he's not the kind of guy who throws people under the bus. You tend to view most everything the Orioles do in an exceptionally harsh light, often with a kind of hyperbolic pessimism, so it's natural that you take the author as gospel. We tend to believe things that enforce our already-formed opinions.

[JTrea81]

Most folks, me included, are surprised that someone said Dave Trembley spoke in this manner about his players because our perception is that he's not the kind of guy who throws people under the bus.

Remember the Pie incident? It shouldn't come as a shock IMO.

[Dipper9]

Remember the Pie incident? It shouldn't come as a shock IMO.

Right, because that ONE incident in 3 years defines who Dave Trembley is. :rolleyes:

[TGO]

I saw him give his shoes to a young fan as he drove out of the player lot.

What you didn't know, weams, was that Daniel, being a brilliant scientist, had devised a new method of delivery of Winstrol and HGH. With Bud Selig and a jealous Albert Pujols onto him, however, he sought to eliminate the evidence. He chose to give away his shoes to a young fan, hoping only that the fan would not put them on eBay immediately. You see, Daniel Cabrera invented a sock liner and insole that delivered the needed performance enhancers undetectably through his feet.

You didn't notice that Daniel never wore socks? Why, of course not! The eye cannot see that for which it does not look!

I heard all of this from Dave Trembley. True story.

[DrungoHazewood]

Remember the Pie incident? It shouldn't come as a shock IMO.

It shouldn't come as a shock to someone who doesn't like Trembley, wants him fired ASAP, and chooses to believe one or two incidents or rumored incidents outweigh all of the other evidence to the contrary. Like I said, confirmation bias.

[Moose Milligan]

<img src = "http://i47.tinypic.com/29472ht.gif">

[lint06]

I'm pretty sure everyone expected this response.

Did you stop to ask yourself what Trembley would have to gain by saying these things to a bunch of fans?

Why would you possibly trust some blogger you don't know over a guy who - even if you don't like him - seems like a decent guy?

Oh, wait, because it confirms your crackpot theories.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I grow more convinced with each passing Trea conspiracy/crackpot suggestion, that his beliefs are driven by a lack of actual viewing of Os games. I am suggesting that because Trea doesn't watch the Os on a regular basis, that the lens through which he sees the Orioles is text and sports clips, and that that kind of viewing lends itself to a fragmented understanding of the Orioles and their players/coaches. Further, I believe that because he follows the Os mostly via computer, there is a sense of fiction which surrounds the Os for Trea.

If one never watches the Os in real time (or at least the entirety of games, which creates a cohesive viewing), then everything one sees is fragmentary, and in a sense, fictive. The Os becomes parts, not wholes, not anything real or stable, much like fiction.

Trea's wild notions are birthed from this viewing of the Os as fiction, and quite frankly, fit better with the creative realm.

[Frobby]

It shouldn't come as a shock to someone who doesn't like Trembley, wants him fired ASAP, and chooses to believe one or two incidents or rumored incidents outweigh all of the other evidence to the contrary. Like I said, confirmation bias.

Maybe I am being Solomonic here, but I think the truth lies somewhere in between. Let's say Trembley says that he thinks Adam Jones is going to be a team leader, although sometimes he talks a little too much. The writer then reports (without using quotes) that Jones is "a little mouthy." Or maybe Trembley says you kind of had to wonder how Cabrera suddenly grew so much and gained so much weight, and the writer reports that Cabrera was "juicing like crazy." The tone is very different, and it is implied that the statements were more direct and more pejorative than Trembley intended, but there's still a kernel of truth in the report on the substance of what was said.

I don't have access to the whole article, but as I said before, it doesn't seem like the author was out to bash Trembley, so I'm not sure why he would just make up things that were neither expressed nor implied.

[Moose Milligan]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I grow more convinced with each passing Trea conspiracy/crackpot suggestion, that his beliefs are driven by a lack of actual viewing of Os games. I am suggesting that because Trea doesn't watch the Os on a regular basis, that the lens through which he sees the Orioles is text and sports clips, and that that kind of viewing lends itself to a fragmented understanding of the Orioles and their players/coaches. Further, I believe that because he follows the Os mostly via computer, there is a sense of fiction which surrounds the Os for Trea.

If one never watches the Os in real time (or at least the entirety of games, which creates a cohesive viewing), then everything one sees is fragmentary, and in a sense, fictive. The Os becomes parts, not wholes, not anything real or stable, much like fiction.

Trea's wild notions are birthed from this viewing of the Os as fiction, and quite frankly, fit better with the creative realm.

Whoa.

That was amazing, dude.

[Tony-OH]

Right, because that ONE incident in 3 years defines who Dave Trembley is. :rolleyes:

Are you trying to find reason with Trea on Trembley? Really? If there is one thing I don't bother responding to in the least bit is a Trea rant on Trembley.
Dude hates this guy for some reason and we all know once he has a "thought" in his head he's going to make sure he injects it into every conversation even remotely related.

As usual, if we just ignore it he'll realize that very few people are paying attention to him and we all know that attention is what he craves over all.

[Lucky Jim]

Maybe I am being Solomonic here, but I think the truth lies somewhere in between. Let's say Trembley says that he thinks Adam Jones is going to be a team leader, although sometimes he talks a little too much. The writer then reports (without using quotes) that Jones is "a little mouthy." Or maybe Trembley says you kind of had to wonder how Cabrera suddenly grew so much and gained so much weight, and the writer reports that Cabrera was "juicing like crazy." The tone is very different, and it is implied that the statements were more direct and more pejorative than Trembley intended, but there's still a kernel of truth in the report on the substance of what was said.

I don't have access to the whole article, but as I said before, it doesn't seem like the author was out to bash Trembley, so I'm not sure why he would just make up things that were neither expressed nor implied.

That's pretty much been my take all along. The article is too heavily mediated, and the problem, more than the content, is the tone.

See, e.g., the reference to "mouthy" when the direct quote from the Wheeler article is something about how he loves to talk.

[JTrea81]

That's pretty much been my take all along. The article is too heavily mediated, and the problem, more than the content, is the tone.

See, e.g., the reference to "mouthy" when the direct quote from the Wheeler article is something about how he loves to talk.

Ever think that Wheeler might have "cleaned it up" for MASN viewers and left some things out on purpose?

Of course you don't because the Orioles could never not tell the truth, right? :rolleyes:

[Three Run Homer]

It's possible that DT didn't say anything resembling some of the more controversial quotes attributed to him. It's also possible that Sean Kates taped the whole thing and that everything he's attributing to Dave is 100 percent accurate.

The only thing we know for sure right now is that Sean Kates is at best a devious jerk. Even if his story is 100 percent correct, he got it in the most dishonest way imaginable. If he's a dishonest person even under the most charitable interpretation, it's not such a stretch to believe that he's just making stuff up out of whole cloth.

[Ruzious]

It's possible that DT didn't say anything resembling some of the more controversial quotes attributed to him. It's also possible that Sean Kates taped the whole thing and that everything he's attributing to Dave is 100 percent accurate.

The only thing we know for sure right now is that Sean Kates is at best a devious jerk. Even if his story is 100 percent correct, he got it in the most dishonest way imaginable. If he's a dishonest person even under the most charitable interpretation, it's not such a stretch to believe that he's just making stuff up out of whole cloth.
I'm not in the business obviously and not clear on what's considered to be the ethics in this situation, and apologies if it's been explained, but could someone explain why there is demonization of the messenger - so folks like me who aren't in the know - can understand?

[JTrea81]

I'm not in the business obviously and not clear on what's considered to be the ethics in this situation, and apologies if it's been explained, but could someone explain why there is demonization of the messenger - so folks like me who aren't in the know - can understand?

People like Trembley and don't like stuff like this aired out in public because it diminshes him in their eyes, so they attack the messenger instead IMO.

My guess is somebody simply neglected to tell these luncheon attendees that this stuff wasn't to be repeated, or never thought anybody would repeat it in a public forum.

It's the kind of blunder you'd expect the Orioles to make really...

[Moose Milligan]

It's the kind of blunder you'd expect the Orioles to make really...

Where'd the Orioles make a blunder?

[jcumansky28]

I'm not in the business obviously and not clear on what's considered to be the ethics in this situation, and apologies if it's been explained, but could someone explain why there is demonization of the messenger - so folks like me who aren't in the know - can understand?

If he were to follow journalistic ethics, Kates would have told Trembley that he was a reporter, named the organization he works for, and asked Trembley if it would be OK to quote anything he said. If DT answers "yes," then Kates is cleared to use anything said at the luncheon. If Kates is recording the conversation on a device, he has to notify Trembley he is doing so, whether he is planning to quote him or not. THIS IS FEDERAL LAW, and not just ethics. There are other things a reporter can negotiate with a subject, or vice-versa. DT could ask to have his quotes read back to him for his OK, or he could say something is "off the record" before he says it to make Kates aware that he won't allow that material to be used in print, or at least with his name attached to it. Hence, anything else is "on the record" and is fair game for the reporter's use. Hope that helps. I'm not sure what Kates' process was, so I won't judge him. But I daresay that DT isn't likely to diss his star CFer or another OF, or to point out juice use by a former player on the record.

[waroriole]

I'm not in the business obviously and not clear on what's considered to be the ethics in this situation, and apologies if it's been explained, but could someone explain why there is demonization of the messenger - so folks like me who aren't in the know - can understand?

Because real journalists don't report what someone says unless they tell the person that they are going to do so. At the very least, he should have told him that he was a "journalist" beforehand so that what DT says is more measured and not so casual. He is basically violating alot of journalistic ethics here.

[Leitch]

Where'd the Orioles make a blunder?

Employing human beings apparently

[waroriole]

That's pathetic.


Off to Hangout Club to find that thread.

It's called Truce, but don't bother it's been brought to his attention plenty of times, but never with any results.

[Florida_Osfan]

People like Trembley and don't like stuff like this aired out in public because it diminshes him in their eyes, so they attack the messenger instead IMO.

My guess is somebody simply neglected to tell these luncheon attendees that this stuff wasn't to be repeated, or never thought anybody would repeat it in a public forum.

It's the kind of blunder you'd expect the Orioles to make really...

If you're going to troll your opinions, as biased as they have become, to derail every thread, don't put words in the mouths of others. While I don't post as much as most here, I do read this forum enough to know the first "claim" from you isn't true. People are simply attacking the ethics--you know ethics is a term--of printing someone else's words without their knowledge.

The truth of the comments notwithstanding, he should have informed DT if he inteneded to publish his words for public viewing. It seems unprofessional to do so otherwise--or something politicians would write in their memoirs.

And how exactly is this an Orioles blunder? DT made a mistake, if he said those things, but how can you link this to the organization? Are the White Sox responsible for every idiotic word that seeps from Ozzie's mouth?

[Tony-OH]

I'm not in the business obviously and not clear on what's considered to be the ethics in this situation, and apologies if it's been explained, but could someone explain why there is demonization of the messenger - so folks like me who aren't in the know - can understand?

Journalists don't paraphrase a person at a fan event. This was not a media event nor was it an interview given to the author. I wasn't there so I have no idea what transpired and I haven't talked yet with Dave to get his side, but what it comes down to is the fact you don't ever, ever print things you heard in the manner in which he heard them.

I won't call the author a liar, because I wasn't there, but I will certainly question the way he went about "reporting" this.

[DrungoHazewood]

It's the kind of blunder you'd expect the Orioles to make really...

No, it's the kind of blunder YOU'd expect the Orioles to make really... I'm not sure there's any kind of blunder, from roster moves to hirings to getting a limo to Markakis' house at 8:45 instead of 8:40, that you wouldn't expect from the O's.

[The Wedge]

I have changed my signature to an oft said statement of mine around here. Because let's face it, this thread needs it. :D

[adam_jonzin']

Who cares if Trembly did say these things. I realize he's Dave Trembly, and not Lou Pinella, but seriously - what if it was a guy like Pinella or Ozzy Guillen saying these things? I'm sure they've said worse. And besides, it's easy to take these things out of context. I know he said he tried to, but the original poster didn't really provide much context. DT could have easily been joking when he said Jones was mouthy. It's not like he revealed any top secrets.

[DrungoHazewood]

Maybe I am being Solomonic here, but I think the truth lies somewhere in between. Let's say Trembley says that he thinks Adam Jones is going to be a team leader, although sometimes he talks a little too much. The writer then reports (without using quotes) that Jones is "a little mouthy." Or maybe Trembley says you kind of had to wonder how Cabrera suddenly grew so much and gained so much weight, and the writer reports that Cabrera was "juicing like crazy." The tone is very different, and it is implied that the statements were more direct and more pejorative than Trembley intended, but there's still a kernel of truth in the report on the substance of what was said.

I don't have access to the whole article, but as I said before, it doesn't seem like the author was out to bash Trembley, so I'm not sure why he would just make up things that were neither expressed nor implied.

That's entirely possible, even likely. But JTrea, in his wonderful little world, chooses to accept the article at face value because he has an anti-Trembley and anti-Orioles agenda.

[Dipper9]

No, it's the kind of blunder YOU'd expect the Orioles to make really... I'm not sure there's any kind of blunder, from roster moves to hirings to getting a limo to Markakis' house at 8:45 instead of 8:40, that you wouldn't expect from the O's.

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times...I wonder aloud why Trea is even an Orioles fan?

[Tony-OH]

I have changed my signature to an oft said statement of mine around here. Because let's face it, this thread needs it. :D

When your signature is more than most of your posts it might be time to trim it down some. I actually thought I put a limit to one or two sentences but I'll have to check.

[Leitch]

I have changed my signature to an oft said statement of mine around here. Because let's face it, this thread needs it. :D

Oh ok cool I see it

[The Wedge]

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times...I wonder aloud why Trea is even an Orioles fan?

A sports related S&M fetish?

[The Wedge]

When your signature is more than most of your posts it might be time to trim it down some. I actually thought I put a limit to one or two sentences but I'll have to check.

I took a big hunk out to accommodate, Ton. I'm not a complete fool. Only a small one.

[Tony-OH]

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times...I wonder aloud why Trea is even an Orioles fan?

I just wonder why people still engage him in conversation once he gets on his mantra? We take more stuff from people over Trea yet he does nothing to change his act or ever show any gratitude over the fact that Scott and I have spent hours of our lives defending the fact that we let him continue to post.

Honestly, I may be getting close to making the decision so many people want me to make.

[TGO]

So, how bout this Andy Gonzalez fellow? Pretty awesome, amIright?

[DrungoHazewood]

Ever think that Wheeler might have "cleaned it up" for MASN viewers and left some things out on purpose?

Of course you don't because the Orioles could never not tell the truth, right? :rolleyes:

Once again we get insight into your on/off switch world. It's either this guy's paraphrasing is 100% correct, or you're an Orioles apologist who thinks they can do no wrong.

My belief is that we don't know how much of this is true, and we may never. So don't make any firm statements either way. You've crucified the O's and Trembley with no independent confirmation/denial at all.

[rochester]

Actually, none of this bothers me too much....except for the DCab statement. To even state that he was "juiced up"...well, I just do not believe anything good can come from that.

The BRob thing? IIRC we had threads on his attitude.

Baez/Kam? Context thing I suppose

Jones? I have the feeling that the "mouthy" comment is no secret..heck, the kid had a great 1rst half and got to sit with the big boys at the all-star game. He IS still a kid in many ways. He is excited, proud...and should be.

the GG? yikes. Maybe he reads the "Stat-head" pubs toooften and just assumed that everyone knew that the UZRs and IDKs and MFYs made him LOL about Jonesy winning it. I have the feeling in one way it will hurt Jones but on the other hand he may somewhere deep agree he didn't have a great year in the field.

Pie? No one has figured out this yet..and these comments make the situation even murkier...maybe someone can write a book on this one subject some day...better yet, I'll wait for the movie. Saying that, I believe that Reimold gets a bit shortchanged when it comes to the comparison posts I see.

Overall, I would really like to be a part of a "real" conversation like this. Unfortunately, we will never see it again as far as the O's are concerned. The DCab statement and possibly, Jones GG statements should not be said in this forum either way - these are still "fans"

As far as the comments that may hurt feelings - I am so tired of prima donna athletes and "oh, pweeze watch what you say to xxxxx." Suck it up

[OrioleMagic]

It's possible that DT didn't say anything resembling some of the more controversial quotes attributed to him. It's also possible that Sean Kates taped the whole thing and that everything he's attributing to Dave is 100 percent accurate.

Maryland is a two-party consent state. He would have had to disclose the fact that he was recording.

Here is a link to start, although it is not directly from Maryland state law: http://www.rcfp.org/taping/



It's the kind of blunder you'd expect the Orioles to make really...

If you really feel the way you appear to, I would like to invite you to pick the Boston Red Sox as your new baseball team and go to their website and never come back here.


If he were to follow journalistic ethics, Kates would have told Trembley that he was a reporter, named the organization he works for, and asked Trembley if it would be OK to quote anything he said. If DT answers "yes," then Kates is cleared to use anything said at the luncheon. If Kates is recording the conversation on a device, he has to notify Trembley he is doing so, whether he is planning to quote him or not. THIS IS FEDERAL LAW, and not just ethics. There are other things a reporter can negotiate with a subject, or vice-versa. DT could ask to have his quotes read back to him for his OK, or he could say something is "off the record" before he says it to make Kates aware that he won't allow that material to be used in print, or at least with his name attached to it. Hence, anything else is "on the record" and is fair game for the reporter's use. Hope that helps. I'm not sure what Kates' process was, so I won't judge him. But I daresay that DT isn't likely to diss his star CFer or another OF, or to point out juice use by a former player on the record.

Where do you get the underlined statement from? Some states are one-party consent and a person can be recorded w/o their knowledge. Maryland is NOT one of those states. I am not aware of any federal law that covers a person recording a conversation that they are a party to.

[federal law covers recording conversation that you are NOT an involved party. i.e. wiretap]

[DuffMan]

Sounds to me like this blogger is really Scott Templeton of The Sun trying to garner another pulitzer.;)

[crawjo]

There's no way Trembley would have said what he said in the way he was "paraphrased." When you are dealing with these kinds of accusations, you need on the record quotes, not paraphrases of whatever you remember being said.

Completely irresponsible and really bad judgment on the part of the author, and it makes Bill James's site look bad. (Not that I'm surprised...James has a history of lazy oversight of things with his name on it.)

[lint06]

Whoa.

That was amazing, dude.

Aw, shucks. Thanks.

[JTrea81]

If you really feel the way you appear to, I would like to invite you to pick the Boston Red Sox as your new baseball team and go to their website and never come back here.

Have you not followed this organization and its PR blunders over the years?

I'm not saying the Orioles are a horrible franchise, but they clearly have some weaknesses, PR being one of the biggest.

[Kevin Lomax]

Honestly, I may be getting close to making the decision so many people want me to make.

This can't mean what we all hope and think it means, can it?!?!

Lint06, very well put and I 100% agree with your opinion.

For what it's worth, while I think what Kates wrote was mostly crap, I would like nothing more than to hear him defend it. At the very least he should have to defend his professionalism and the reason behind posting something like that given the atmosphere he was in...true or not.

[clarence]

I just wonder why people still engage him in conversation once he gets on his mantra? We take more stuff from people over Trea yet he does nothing to change his act or ever show any gratitude over the fact that Scott and I have spent hours of our lives defending the fact that we let him continue to post.

Honestly, I may be getting close to making the decision so many people want me to make.

Even if just a tease, this made my day. Would prove that dreams do come true.

[Moose Milligan]

Even if just a tease, this made my day. Would prove that dreams do come true.

Hear, hear!

[Ruzious]

If he were to follow journalistic ethics, Kates would have told Trembley that he was a reporter, named the organization he works for, and asked Trembley if it would be OK to quote anything he said. If DT answers "yes," then Kates is cleared to use anything said at the luncheon. If Kates is recording the conversation on a device, he has to notify Trembley he is doing so, whether he is planning to quote him or not. THIS IS FEDERAL LAW, and not just ethics. There are other things a reporter can negotiate with a subject, or vice-versa. DT could ask to have his quotes read back to him for his OK, or he could say something is "off the record" before he says it to make Kates aware that he won't allow that material to be used in print, or at least with his name attached to it. Hence, anything else is "on the record" and is fair game for the reporter's use. Hope that helps. I'm not sure what Kates' process was, so I won't judge him. But I daresay that DT isn't likely to diss his star CFer or another OF, or to point out juice use by a former player on the record.
But was Kates a reporter at that time, or just a contest winner, or both? If he wasn't a reporter, did he really do anything unethical?

[Moose Milligan]

If he wasn't a reporter, did he really do anything unethical?

Might not be "ethical" but I'd have to imagine it's frowned upon.

Hearsay is usually never a good thing.

[Lucky Jim]

Hear, hear!

I don't know. I picture an end-of-the-Cold War scenario, where, having defeated our main rival, the good guys are forced into a never ending war with a decentered and amorphous group of smaller evils. I, for one, don't want to be the one chasing O5F into the hills. ;) Of course, O5F probably thinks of himself as these guys:

http://christiandivine.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/wolverines.jpg

In the end, this probably isn't about fiction, or lying, or anything other than a poor writer, with no allegiance to journalistic ethos, transcribing something from memory without thinking about how the filter of his subjectivity transforms what he thinks he remembers.

[Hank Scorpio]

Might not be "ethical" but I'd have to imagine it's frowned upon.

Hearsay is usually never a good thing.

Yeah just ask our insiders.

[El Gordo]

Maybe I am being Solomonic here, but I think the truth lies somewhere in between. Let's say Trembley says that he thinks Adam Jones is going to be a team leader, although sometimes he talks a little too much. The writer then reports (without using quotes) that Jones is "a little mouthy." Or maybe Trembley says you kind of had to wonder how Cabrera suddenly grew so much and gained so much weight, and the writer reports that Cabrera was "juicing like crazy." The tone is very different, and it is implied that the statements were more direct and more pejorative than Trembley intended, but there's still a kernel of truth in the report on the substance of what was said.

I don't have access to the whole article, but as I said before, it doesn't seem like the author was out to bash Trembley, so I'm not sure why he would just make up things that were neither expressed nor implied.I promise you Frobby if you read the whole article you would have a different opinion of the author, though I agree about the kernal of truth part.

[Stotle]

Might not be "ethical" but I'd have to imagine it's frowned upon.

Hearsay is usually never a good thing.

Yeah, the language used in the article is unsettling. He did indicate that he informed Trembley he was a writer for the James site near the end of the luncheon -- I don't know what that is worth, as it isn't clear whether he informed him he'd be writing about the luncheon, or just a "Yeah, I do some writing for Bill James's site." Shrug.

[weams]

I just wonder why people still engage him in conversation once he gets on his mantra? We take more stuff from people over Trea yet he does nothing to change his act or ever show any gratitude over the fact that Scott and I have spent hours of our lives defending the fact that we let him continue to post.

Honestly, I may be getting close to making the decision so many people want me to make.


Even if just a tease, this made my day. Would prove that Premium dreams do come true.

I think the odds are 9:3.

[Stotle]

Closer to 27:9 if you ask me.

[mcgraw238]

I just wonder why people still engage him in conversation once he gets on his mantra? We take more stuff from people over Trea yet he does nothing to change his act or ever show any gratitude over the fact that Scott and I have spent hours of our lives defending the fact that we let him continue to post.

Honestly, I may be getting close to making the decision so many people want me to make.

:2yay-thumb:

[ChaosLex]

Honestly, I may be getting close to making the decision so many people want me to make.

I like JTrea. :(

[Lucky Jim]

I like JTrea. :(

Well, yeah. He makes you appear rational. ;)

I'd rather not see him go, actually. But I'm big on reform.

On the other hand, reform doesn't appear possible here. It's an age-old conundrum.

[weams]

I like JTrea. :(

I met him and his lovely wife when they came to the Hangout game last year. They seemed nice and like real Oriole fans. It must have something to do with the New England air.

[Tony-OH]

I just got word from Dave and he said he would have never said such things. Knowing Dave, and considering this guy has no one to back up his story, I think it's highly unlikely he said anything remote to what was reported by the author.

If it's a he-said, she-said thing, I'm going to take Dave's word over some guy with questionable ethics. I've also talked with some people off the record who knew the MASN blogger and she said she never heard anything like what was "reported."

I think it's time to put to rest the notion by some that Dave was holding court with a bunch of fans and bad mouthing his players and former players.

[LookinUp]

Ugh. As of this post, JTrea has 8 of 235 posts in this thread. That's 3.4% of the posts, yet everyone's harping on him because he's raising the possibility that the O's are in damage control mode about an issue where they probably are in damage control mode (rightly or wrongly). If he's removed from this site, I sure hope it's not for this thread.

I don't like the ethics of this article. If you're going to quote or paraphrase somebody, you should be up front and tell them. This doesn't look good for the author and it shouldn't.

On the other hand, do I think Trembley talks like this about his players? Yes. Somebody I trust was at a cookout with Trembley after his first year with the O's and relayed some things to me. In a nutshell, he really didn't like Ramon Hernandez and a couple of other players. I'd never write an article about it even if I were there to hear it myself w/o telling the man that he was on the record.

Still, I don't expect any of you to necessarily believe me, but I absolutely believe the guy I spoke with... and it struck me as odd that Trembley would have said what he said about his players until I realized that it was a totally informal setting, he let his guard down and he really didn't think there was any risk.

Now, would Trembley let his guard down at a luncheon like this? We can only speculate...which really won't get us anywhere.

[Moose Milligan]

I just got word from Dave and he said he would have never said such things. Knowing Dave, and considering this guy has no one to back up his story, I think it's highly unlikely he said anything remote to what was reported by the author.

If it's a he-said, she-said thing, I'm going to take Dave's word over some guy with questionable ethics. I've also talked with some people off the record who knew the MASN blogger and she said she never heard anything like what was "reported."

I think it's time to put to rest the notion by some that Dave was holding court with a bunch of fans and bad mouthing his players and former players.

Well said.

Then again, it could be part of the Vast Oriole-Wing Conspiracy. You never know, Tony...you just never know.

[Owen21]

I just got word from Dave and he said he would have never said such things. Knowing Dave, and considering this guy has no one to back up his story, I think it's highly unlikely he said anything remote to what was reported by the author.

If it's a he-said, she-said thing, I'm going to take Dave's word over some guy with questionable ethics. I've also talked with some people off the record who knew the MASN blogger and she said she never heard anything like what was "reported."

I think it's time to put to rest the notion by some that Dave was holding court with a bunch of fans and bad mouthing his players and former players.

Whew.......!!!

[Ruzious]

Might not be "ethical" but I'd have to imagine it's frowned upon.

Hearsay is usually never a good thing.
It's not hearsay if he was there. :)

Anyway, I think Tony cleared it up. Nobody has colaberated the guy's story, and the manager and all others in the know deny it, so I'm satisfied.

[DuffMan]

Sounds to me like this blogger is really Scott Templeton of The Sun trying to garner another pulitzer.;)

Nobody got this reference??? Rep to anyone that knows what I'm talking about here.

[Lucky Jim]

Nobody got this reference??? Rep to anyone that knows what I'm talking about here.

I intended to positive rep you for it, but forgot. :)

Even if Season 5 was a let down and I hated that plotline.

[weams]

Nobody got this reference??? Rep to anyone that knows what I'm talking about here.

Any false stories on the "Wire" lately?

[jcumansky28]

Maryland is a two-party consent state. He would have had to disclose the fact that he was recording.

Here is a link to start, although it is not directly from Maryland state law: http://www.rcfp.org/taping/



If you really feel the way you appear to, I would like to invite you to pick the Boston Red Sox as your new baseball team and go to their website and never come back here.



Where do you get the underlined statement from? Some states are one-party consent and a person can be recorded w/o their knowledge. Maryland is NOT one of those states. I am not aware of any federal law that covers a person recording a conversation that they are a party to.

[federal law covers recording conversation that you are NOT an involved party. i.e. wiretap]


Without a court order, you can't record someone without consent if you're involving them in a conversation. There are FCC rules in place on this. This is why the FBI has to get a judge's consent to conduct wiretapping stings. It's a basic part of what journalists are taught. No gotchas-on-tape unless the person you're taping has given you an OK. Otherwise, you get fired and, possibly, prosecuted.

[OrioleMagic]

Have you not followed this organization and its PR blunders over the years?

I'm not saying the Orioles are a horrible franchise, but they clearly have some weaknesses, PR being one of the biggest.

Your posts go way beyond the PR. I read your opinions and can't help but wonder why you stick around. Your negativity is at an irrational level.

[jcumansky28]

But was Kates a reporter at that time, or just a contest winner, or both? If he wasn't a reporter, did he really do anything unethical?

Well, if he's reporting this in a reporting venue, is he not acting as a reporter?

[Kevin Lomax]

Nobody got this reference??? Rep to anyone that knows what I'm talking about here.

Red ribbon man. It links them all together.