MLB.com article with Angelos quotes

[eddie83]

http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100201&content_id=8007408&vkey=news_bal&fext=.jsp&c_id=bal
I started reading the article then saw the quotes from Angelos, you very rarely hear anything from him. I agree with him that life isn't fair in the AL East but the idea that economics killed the Orioles is wrong. He ran the franchise into the ground when attendance was still very strong.

I have no problems with Angelos since 2007 when he hired MacPhail. Both on and off the field things are alot better. The past is the past but that doesn't change things he did to damage the team.

[BaltimoreTerp]

http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100201&content_id=8007408&vkey=news_bal&fext=.jsp&c_id=bal
I started reading the article then saw the quotes from Angelos, you very rarely hear anything from him. I agree with him that life isn't fair in the AL East but the idea that economics killed the Orioles is wrong. He ran the franchise into the ground when attendance was still very strong.

I have no problems with Angelos since 2007 when he hired MacPhail. Both on and off the field things are alot better. The past is the past but that doesn't change things he did to damage the team.

Well HE'S not going to say that...:p

[RShack]

He ran the franchise into the ground when attendance was still very strong.
I wish people would quit saying this. Look, he deserves all the blame you can muster for not fixing it until now. But the franchise was in the ground when he got it. Except for 1 fluke year, it had been for years and years...

[eddie83]

I wish people would quit saying this. Look, he deserves all the blame you can muster for not fixing it until now. But the franchise was in the ground when he got it. Except for 1 fluke year, it had been for years and years...

Nonsense. We had a competitive team with a young starters in Mussina and McDonald. We had an 89 win team in 1992 and an 85 win team in 1993. In 1994 he took over when Camden Yards was sold out everynight. Hemond built a solid team by the time he took over. We weren't great but to say that the team was ran into the ground isn't accurate.

[Miller192]

Someone decipher this part for me:


He believes franchises such as the Orioles -- unable to generate huge revenues -- cannot remain competitive, or at least stay even with teams such as the Yankees and Red Sox.

"It's a question of how much money you can generate," he said. "Once in a while there is an exception to that rule, but it cannot be sustained year-to-year. It's an old story: How much money do you have? We're in that kind of economic system and those rules apply."

What is PGA saying is the exception to the rule? The Rays? Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it appears he is saying that without spending a ton of money in the East, you can't consistently be competitive. At the same time, he is saying that we are not one of those teams that can spend a lot. So I guess we shouldn't expect to consistently be competitive?

Am I drawing the wrong conclusion here?

[byrdz]

Nonsense. We had a competitive team with a young starters in Mussina and McDonald. We had an 89 win team in 1992 and an 85 win team in 1993. In 1994 he took over when Camden Yards was sold out everynight. Hemond built a solid team by the time he took over. We weren't great but to say that the team was ran into the ground isn't accurate.

He may be speaking about how our minor league system was neglected over those years and subsequently didn't produce much. Only way to compete consistently is to have a strong farm system.

[Hank Scorpio]

Ehhhhhhhhhhh, basically this article re-inforces what most people think about both Angelos and the economics of baseball.

[eddie83]

He may be speaking about how our minor league system was neglected over those years and subsequently didn't produce much. Only way to compete consistently is to have a strong farm system.

I agree our minor league system wasn't great then. I won't deny that. I don't think Angelos did his homework if he thought that the minors weren't important. All I am saying is he bought the team with a great new stadium that sold out, Cal Ripken and a competitive team. He walked into a great situation.

[crowmst3k!]

Andy is doing such a good job I don't think he needs any help from me. I'm delighted with the results he's getting


Wow, this quote is open to some interpretation...

[JTrea81]

Someone decipher this part for me:



What is PGA saying is the exception to the rule? The Rays? Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it appears he is saying that without spending a ton of money in the East, you can't consistently be competitive. At the same time, he is saying that we are not one of those teams that can spend a lot. So I guess we shouldn't expect to consistently be competitive?

Am I drawing the wrong conclusion here?

That's what it sounds like to me...

And I just love this quote:


Getting back to the current Orioles, Angelos said, "Andy is doing such a good job I don't think he needs any help from me. I'm delighted with the results he's getting."

In other words, "I'm delighted with my profit margin."

So it is all about the money. Glad to see we keep crying poor with a RSN... :mad:

[McNulty]

Evil genius strikes again!

[Hank Scorpio]

Evil genius strikes again!

He just cannot contain himself.

[TonySoprano]

Nonsense. We had a competitive team with a young starters in Mussina and McDonald. We had an 89 win team in 1992 and an 85 win team in 1993. In 1994 he took over when Camden Yards was sold out everynight.

Exactly.
Last 5 years-Angelos, 5 straight years of declining won-loss pct.

YR BAL-W BAL-L PCT
2009 64 98 0.395
2008 68 93 0.422
2007 69 93 0.426
2006 70 92 0.432
2005 74 88 0.457
TOT 345 464 0.426

5 years pre-Angelos

YR BAL-W BAL-L PCT
1993 85 77 0.525
1992 89 73 0.549
1991 67 95 0.414
1990 76 85 0.472
1989 87 75 0.537
TOT 404 405 0.499

Camden Yards was the golden goose. Attendance was killed by the on-field product, down nearly 49% since 1997.

1997 3,711,132 0
1998 3,684,650 -0.71%
1999 3,433,150 -7.49%
2000 3,297,031 -11.16%
2001 3,094,841 -16.61%
2002 2,682,439 -27.72%
2003 2,454,523 -33.86%
2004 2,744,018 -26.06%
2005 2,624,740 -29.27%
2006 2,153,139 -41.98%
2007 2,164,822 -41.67%
2008 1,950,075 -47.45%
2009 1,907,163 -48.61%

[eddie83]

Sometimes I wonder if he has any advisors that he listens to. Like I said earlier I have no current beef with the man but he doesn't do himself any favors when he opens his mouth. I am not saying people would want to throw him a parade in downtown Baltimore but if he would just say I made some mistakes he wouldn 't do his PR image any harm.

[JTrea81]

He just cannot contain himself.

I'm sorry but it seems to be one excuse after another.

First MASN was the answer (http://www.pressboxonline.com/story.cfm?id=738):


In answer to your question, now that we have an RSN and we can move forward with it…that is going get us on a more even plane with Boston and New York, and that was the purpose.

And now:


He believes franchises such as the Orioles -- unable to generate huge revenues -- cannot remain competitive, or at least stay even with teams such as the Yankees and Red Sox.

"It's a question of how much money you can generate," he said. "Once in a while there is an exception to that rule, but it cannot be sustained year-to-year. It's an old story: How much money do you have? We're in that kind of economic system and those rules apply."

The excuses have to stop sometime.

You have MacPhail saying the goal is to build a year in year out competitor, and then you have Angelos saying they can't because we can't generate enough revenue.

Sounds like Andy's been selling false hope to me.

[sbauer]

He should sell the team and move on if he thinks the situation is unfair. His quotes are awfully depressing.

[Satyr3206]

I'm sorry but it seems to be one excuse after another.

First MASN was the answer (http://www.pressboxonline.com/story.cfm?id=738):



And now:



The excuses have to stop sometime.

You have MacPhail saying the goal is to build a year in year out competitor, and then you have Angelos saying they can't because we can't generate enough revenue.

Sounds like Andy's been selling false hope to me.

Are you ever going to get it?

[foxfield]

I wish people would quit saying this. Look, he deserves all the blame you can muster for not fixing it until now. But the franchise was in the ground when he got it. Except for 1 fluke year, it had been for years and years...

Hate that this is true, but it is....

"must spread rep...."

[JTrea81]

Are you ever going to get it?

Did you not read what the man said?


"Once in a while there is an exception to that rule, but it cannot be sustained year-to-year."

Who do you think he's talking about?

He's saying the Orioles cannot compete year to year until the revenue imbalance is fixed.

In otherwords he doesn't believe Andy can build a sustained competitor if he believes what he just said.

He's basically saying the Orioles will basically be a one and done if they get to that point. And frankly he's right if the Orioles keep their payroll where it is now and the Red Sox and Yankees continue to spend to keep their teams competitive.

He's admitting Andy's plan will not work.

[RShack]

Nonsense. We had a competitive team with a young starters in Mussina and McDonald. We had an 89 win team in 1992 and an 85 win team in 1993. In 1994 he took over when Camden Yards was sold out everynight. Hemond built a solid team by the time he took over. We weren't great but to say that the team was ran into the ground isn't accurate.
Oh, stop. They drafted 2 SP's and had a new stadium. So what? The franchise had not produced an everyday player who stuck since Cal more than a decade earlier. The farm system was crap, it had been left to rot for more than a decade before PA got it. The fact that the state gave the O's a new stadium doesn't change that. Just because they had the occasional non-losing season amid a ton of losing doesn't change the fact that the tradition of the Baltimore Orioles being a solid franchise was in the past years before PA showed up.

Look, I'm not defending PA. I said he deserves all the blame you can muster for not having fixed it until now. But there's no reason to make up BS stories that aren't true. The 2 owners before him ran the franchise into the ground. PA came in, spent a bunch of money the wrong way on a quick fix, and then presided over an unconscionable tailspin. The facts are what they are, there's no need to make any up false stories about it. BTW, had he not bought the team at auction in NY, what city do you think would have the team now?

[wickedwitch]

The Orioles were one of the most profitable franchise a decade ago. That they're not any more is largely his fault. His complaints are worthless.


I wish people would quit saying this. Look, he deserves all the blame you can muster for not fixing it until now. But the franchise was in the ground when he got it. Except for 1 fluke year, it had been for years and years...

The franchise wasn't in great shape when he bought the team, but he made things even worse. That qualifies as "running it into the ground."

[napbow]

The Orioles were one of the most profitable franchise a decade ago. That they're not any more is largely his fault. His complaints are worthless.



The franchise wasn't in great shape when he bought the team, but he made things even worse. That qualifies as "running it into the ground."

I would have to think the success of the Ravens has not helped attendance.

[Frobby]

Did you not read what the man said?

Who do you think he's talking about?

He's saying the Orioles cannot compete year to year until the revenue imbalance is fixed.

In otherwords he doesn't believe Andy can build a sustained competitor if he believes what he just said.

He's basically saying the Orioles will basically be a one and done if they get to that point. And frankly he's right if the Orioles keep their payroll where it is now and the Red Sox and Yankees continue to spend to keep their teams competitive.

He's admitting Andy's plan will not work.

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that we can't spend as much as NY and Boston. He's saying there is NO PLAN that will allow us to consistently win in a division where large economic disparities exist. So the issue is what plan will get us to the best possible outcome, which is that we OCCASIONALLY will be able to compete with NY and Boston.

I don't know anyone who thinks the O's will keep payroll where it is now if they are in a postion to compete by spending some additional money. BUT WE AREN'T GOING TO SPEND $150 - 200 MM ON PAYROLL SO JUST STOP HARPING ALREADY!

You sure know how to beat a dead horse/\.:deadhorse::deadhorse:

[Frobby]

Did you not read what the man said?

Who do you think he's talking about?

He's saying the Orioles cannot compete year to year until the revenue imbalance is fixed.

In otherwords he doesn't believe Andy can build a sustained competitor if he believes what he just said.

He's basically saying the Orioles will basically be a one and done if they get to that point. And frankly he's right if the Orioles keep their payroll where it is now and the Red Sox and Yankees continue to spend to keep their teams competitive.

He's admitting Andy's plan will not work.

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that we can't spend as much as NY and Boston. He's saying there is NO PLAN that will allow us to consistently win in a division where large economic disparities exist. So the issue is what plan will get us to the best possible outcome, which is that we OCCASIONALLY will be able to compete with NY and Boston.

I don't know anyone who thinks the O's will keep payroll where it is now if they are in a postion to compete by spending some additional money. BUT WE AREN'T GOING TO SPEND $150 - 200 MM ON PAYROLL SO JUST STOP HARPING ALREADY!

You sure know how to beat a dead horse.:deadhorse::deadhorse:

[Moose Milligan]

Man, you know it's bad when Frobby cracks.

[JTrea81]

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that we can't spend as much as NY and Boston. He's saying there is NO PLAN that will allow us to consistently win in a division where large economic disparities exist. So the issue is what plan will get us to the best possible outcome, which is that we OCCASIONALLY will be able to compete with NY and Boston.

I don't know anyone who thinks the O's will keep payroll where it is now if they are in a postion to compete by spending some additional money. BUT WE AREN'T GOING TO SPEND $150 - 200 MM ON PAYROLL SO JUST STOP HARPING ALREADY!

You sure know how to beat a dead horse/\.:deadhorse::deadhorse:

But we aren't being sold the "occassionally compete" bill of goods are we?

And really should that be good enough? Should we really settle for a "one and done" type of team?

And I don't think we have to spend $150-200 million, but I don't think we are even going to go above $100 million, and we might just have to do that.

[TonySoprano]

Oh, stop. They drafted 2 SP's and had a new stadium. So what? Did you not read what he said? Specifically,
http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100201&content_id=8007408&vkey=news_bal&fext=.jsp&c_id=bal
I started reading the article then saw the quotes from Angelos, you very rarely hear anything from him. I agree with him that life isn't fair in the AL East but the idea that economics killed the Orioles is wrong. He ran the franchise into the ground when attendance was still very strong. What part of that is disputable? Just take a look at the attendance figures I posted above.


Just because they had the occasional non-losing season amid a ton of losing doesn't change the fact that the tradition of the Baltimore Orioles being a solid franchise was in the past years before PA showed up.They had a winning record three out of five years before he arrived. If I include the strike shortened year of 1994, the Orioles have only had three winning teams in sixteen years of his leadership. You put the emphasis on the farm system time and again, deflecting focus away from the overall record.

Here is the overall record 1175-1347 (.466). Name an owner of the Orioles who has a worse record than Angelos.

94-09A W L PCT
BOS 95 151 0.386
CHW 58 76 0.433
CLE 50 84 0.373
DET 78 57 0.578
KCR 84 49 0.632
LAA 82 82 0.500
MIL-A 28 17 0.622
MIN 72 58 0.554
NYY 90 161 0.359
OAK 65 87 0.428
SEA 82 79 0.509
TBD 104 100 0.510
TEX 75 77 0.493
TOR 111 141 0.440
94-09A 1074 1219 0.468

94-09N W L PCT
ARI 3 9 0.250
ATL 13 17 0.433
CHC 3 3 0.500
CIN 1 2 0.333
COL 4 5 0.444
FLA 5 16 0.238
HOU 6 3 0.667
LAD 1 5 0.167
MIL 3 3 0.500
NYM 9 13 0.409
PHI 24 21 0.533
PIT 3 3 0.500
SDP 4 2 0.667
SFG 3 3 0.500
STL 1 2 0.333
WAS 18 21 0.462
94-09N 101 128 0.441

[Frobby]

But we aren't being sold the "occassionally compete" bill of goods are we?

And really should that be good enough? Should we really settle for a one and done type of team?

First, I think "one and done" is an overstatement. Tampa won in 2008, they were in the wild card race last year until Pena broke his hand, they are projected to contend this year, and their farm system remains stacked. They should be a good team for a long time.

That said, they probably are going to lose to NY and Boston more often than not. In case you hadn't noticed, even Boston, as well run and well financed as they are, have only managed to win the division once in the last 14 years. You simply can't average 96 wins a year, as the Yankees have the last decade, unless you can outspend every other team by a wide margin. And guess what - the Orioles can't.

[tvz1997]

First, I think "one and done" is an overstatement. Tampa won in 2008, they were in the wild card race last year until Pena broke his hand, they are projected to contend this year, and their farm system remains stacked. They should be a good team for a long time.

That said, they probably are going to lose to NY and Boston more often than not. In case you hadn't noticed, even Boston, as well run and well financed as they are, have only managed to win the division once in the last 14 years. You simply can't average 96 wins a year, as the Yankees have the last decade, unless you can outspend every other team by a wide margin. And guess what - the Orioles can't.

http://pictures.mastermarf.com/blog/2008/080419-ignore-him.jpg
He's been on one of his solipsistic revelries lately. Please God let actual games start soon.

[Miller192]

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that we can't spend as much as NY and Boston. He's saying there is NO PLAN that will allow us to consistently win in a division where large economic disparities exist. So the issue is what plan will get us to the best possible outcome, which is that we OCCASIONALLY will be able to compete with NY and Boston.

I don't know anyone who thinks the O's will keep payroll where it is now if they are in a postion to compete by spending some additional money. BUT WE AREN'T GOING TO SPEND $150 - 200 MM ON PAYROLL SO JUST STOP HARPING ALREADY!

You sure know how to beat a dead horse.:deadhorse::deadhorse:

Well, Angelos said "once in a while" not occasionally, but I fully understand that could be semantics.

To be fair, I left out the more optimistic statements that MacPhail made. While I may not be in total aggreement with those statements, I trust AM's judgement moreso than Angelos'.

[RShack]

Did you not read what he said? Specifically, What part of that is disputable? Just take a look at the attendance figures I posted above.
What does that have to do with the price of eggs? Attendance isn't the mark of a good team, and neither is having the gov't give the team a new stadium. Back when the O's were good all the time, they were lucky to draw a million. Maybe you judge a franchise by attendance, I judge it by how well it does at consistenty putting a winning team on the field. And by winning, I don't mean .501 ball either.


You put the emphasis on the farm system time and again, deflecting focus away from the overall record.
And you like to deny reality because you're in love with EBW for some unknown reason. He's the guy who ruined the franchise and presided over the destruction of the Oriole Way, but you'd rather make up fairy tails about how PA did it. You pull this same stunt every time it comes up. Face it, the O's were never consistent winners without a good farm system and never will be again without one. So, unless you think the O's should be trying to buy flags via FA instead of growing good players, you don't have a leg to stand on.


Here is the overall record 1175-1347 (.466).
I said that PA deserves all the blame you can muster for not fixing the franchise until now. I said that, after he came in a spent a ton to get short-term success the wrong way, he then presided over an unconscionable tailspin. You know I said it, I know I said it, everybody knows I said it. Now, if you think the franchise wasn't ruined when he got it, I don't know what to tell you. EBW ran it into the ground as is proven by the fact that the O's stopped signing fresh MiL talent who made it the minute he got the team. They always had before, but when he took over, it's like somebody flicked a switch. Hoffberger signed Cal, sold the team to EBW, and that was it for homegrown position players who amounted to anything until BRob came up. Then the next guy after EBW was broke and in hock up to his ears and didn't have the money to fix anything. PA's sin was to continue in the footsteps of his 2 immediate predecessors by not restoring the Oriole Way that EBW destroyed. Why it took him this long to snap out of it, I have no idea. But he's the 3rd owner who was bad for the franchise by doing things the wrong way, not the first, and you know it. Why you pull this stunt of pretending otherwise, I really don't know.

[O's are Legends]

Evil genius strikes again!http://www.seanpaune.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/greenlanternmovie.png

Who knew Angelos was the Green Lantern.:D

[McNulty]

According to Sly:

Angelos doesn't think we can spend enough to consistantly beat the MFY/Sox. Andy MacPhail, in turn, has sold him on a plan where we use cheaper young talent supplemented by free agent signings when the young talent is ready to compete. This is, according to sly, MacPhail selling false hope.

You do realize a goal is something you strive for, and may possibly be unattainable. For example, my goal (with regards to this message board) is to not engage in conversations with you because it is a fruitless enterprise. However, its impossible (and I'm doing it right now) to ignore you forever, because you are the most perfect incarnation of an evil genius I've ever seen. I mean that as a compliment. Your mastery of your craft is unparalleled in our lifetime.

[Moose Milligan]

According to Sly:

Angelos doesn't think we can spend enough to consistantly beat the MFY/Sox. Andy MacPhail, in turn, has sold him on a plan where we use cheaper young talent supplemented by free agent signings when the young talent is ready to compete. This is, according to sly, MacPhail selling false hope.

You do realize a goal is something you strive for, and may possibly be unattainable. For example, my goal (with regards to this message board) is to not engage in conversations with you because it is a fruitless enterprise. However, its impossible (and I'm doing it right now) to ignore you forever, because you are the most perfect incarnation of an evil genius I've ever seen. I mean that as a compliment. Your mastery of your craft is unparallelled in our lifetime.

Dude, I can't get the perma-block thing to work. It's killing me.

[helloharv]

One of the most depressing and frustrating Orioles articles I have ever read :( :mad:

Peter is happy with Andy's results :eektf:

I guess Peter lied in the Pressbox interview when HE stated we can support a 110 million payroll .... where in the hell is all the MASN money going besides our owners pockets ?

[weams]

Man, you know it's bad when Frobby cracks.

That is what the Trea is playing for. Good Job. You have brought down our best and brightest!

[weams]

Dude, I can't get the perma-block thing to work. It's killing me.

I can :D :D :D

[weams]

http://www.seanpaune.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/greenlanternmovie.png

Who knew Angelos was the Green Lantern.:D


He meant the Trea.

[RShack]

I just now read the linked to article that includes the PA quotes. I cannot believe that everybody in this thread is reading the same thing.

As I understand it, the words from the quotations come off the computer screen and into each reader's eyes, and then into the reader's brain. God only knows what happens to them once they start to rattle around in there, but it's apparent that not everyone's brain is, um, working the same way. I think a few folks here have a serious wiring problem...

[JTrea81]

That is what the Trea is playing for. Good Job. You have brought down our best and brightest!

I'm not trying to get anybody to crack.

I'm just saying Angelos has said what Andy is striving for is not possible unless the financial picture changes.

This is not what the fanbase was being sold.

People on here have constantly told me that Andy's plan will work, and that we'll spend money when we need to to become that perennial contender.

From what I've read Peter Angelos has just told everybody that pretty much isn't going to happen.

It's very discouraging, and should make people really question the direction of the franchise, but instead people will make excuses and say "well Andy didn't mean he wanted to build a perennial contender and that's okay."

When are we going to stop making excuses and lowering our standards on where we want the Orioles to be?

[Moose Milligan]

I got it to work! It works! I'm free!!!

[TonySoprano]

What does that have to do with the price of eggs? Attendance isn't the mark of a good team, and neither is having the gov't give the team a new stadium. Back when the O's were good all the time, they were lucky to draw a million. Maybe you judge a franchise by attendance, I judge it by how well it does at consistenty putting a winning team on the field. And by winning, I don't mean .501 ball either.Unless attendance around baseball is down 49% since 1997, then Angelos' management of the business has driven away customers.


And you like to deny reality because you're in love with EBW for some unknown reason. He's the guy who ruined the franchise and presided over the destruction of the Oriole Way, but you'd rather make up fairy tails about how PA did it. That's the same strawman argument you continue to make which has no basis in reality. Notice by my putting Angelos at the bottom of the pile, it also puts him behind Eli Jacobs, but that puts a hole in your strawman. Doesn't it?


You pull this same stunt every time it comes up. Ditto.

[eddie83]

Oh, stop. They drafted 2 SP's and had a new stadium. So what? The franchise had not produced an everyday player who stuck since Cal more than a decade earlier. The farm system was crap, it had been left to rot for more than a decade before PA got it. The fact that the state gave the O's a new stadium doesn't change that. Just because they had the occasional non-losing season amid a ton of losing doesn't change the fact that the tradition of the Baltimore Orioles being a solid franchise was in the past years before PA showed up.

Look, I'm not defending PA. I said he deserves all the blame you can muster for not having fixed it until now. But there's no reason to make up BS stories that aren't true. The 2 owners before him ran the franchise into the ground. PA came in, spent a bunch of money the wrong way on a quick fix, and then presided over an unconscionable tailspin. The facts are what they are, there's no need to make any up false stories about it. BTW, had he not bought the team at auction in NY, what city do you think would have the team now?

What story did I make up? What false stories? I am well aware of what EBW did and that is when the farm system dried up. The bottom line is when Angelos bought the team we were a solid ballclub. Jacobs at least left Hemond run the team, Lucchino was here still as well, he knows the game. I am not telling you the early 90's were the glory days but we were competitive.

Camden Yards saved baseball in Baltimore not Peter Angelos. Please tell me the owner who would of moved the team away, to where? There is no where to go. The idea that Angelos saved baseball in Baltimore is a myth. In 1988 Governor Shaefer and EBW announced the stadium deal, that is what cemented baseball in Baltimore not a local owner who bought the team 2 seasons after Camden Yards was built. Why did the team sell for such a high price if it didn't have any value?

[Why_Knott?]

Did you not read what he said? Specifically, What part of that is disputable? Just take a look at the attendance figures I posted above.

They had a winning record three out of five years before he arrived. If I include the strike shortened year of 1994, the Orioles have only had three winning teams in sixteen years of his leadership. You put the emphasis on the farm system time and again, deflecting focus away from the overall record.

Here is the overall record 1175-1347 (.466). Name an owner of the Orioles who has a worse record than Angelos.

94-09A W L PCT
BOS 95 151 0.386
CHW 58 76 0.433
CLE 50 84 0.373
DET 78 57 0.578
KCR 84 49 0.632
LAA 82 82 0.500
MIL-A 28 17 0.622
MIN 72 58 0.554
NYY 90 161 0.359
OAK 65 87 0.428
SEA 82 79 0.509
TBD 104 100 0.510
TEX 75 77 0.493
TOR 111 141 0.440
94-09A 1074 1219 0.468

94-09N W L PCT
ARI 3 9 0.250
ATL 13 17 0.433
CHC 3 3 0.500
CIN 1 2 0.333
COL 4 5 0.444
FLA 5 16 0.238
HOU 6 3 0.667
LAD 1 5 0.167
MIL 3 3 0.500
NYM 9 13 0.409
PHI 24 21 0.533
PIT 3 3 0.500
SDP 4 2 0.667
SFG 3 3 0.500
STL 1 2 0.333
WAS 18 21 0.462
94-09N 101 128 0.441


Why do we suck so bad against Cleveland?

[isestrex]

King Peter left out something


His answer was quick: "If you check the record, the first $10 million player occurred roughly after 1995-96. That's when the numbers [salaries] started getting out of line. And when a couple of teams decided they were going to buy their way into the World Series it became strictly a money game."

Angelos added the Orioles had great attendance, but "we didn't raise our ticket prices; we tried to keep them in the reach of the average consumer. We're in a market which requires that, so we cannot claim to be heroic."

He believes franchises such as the Orioles -- unable to generate huge revenues -- cannot remain competitive, or at least stay even with teams such as the Yankees and Red Sox.

Why, then, did he sign Albert Belle? King Peter was perfectly willing to enter the Orioles into the "buy their way into the World Series" strategy but he messed it up. The only reason the Orioles can't spend the big bucks on a top free agent is because Camden Yards isn't what it once was.

IMO, the whole Davey Johnson thing was sad (along with Jon Miller) but this horrible spiral all began because King Peter TRIED THE SAME STRATEGY HE IS NOW BASHING... he just picked very very poorly. The Albert Belle signing was the beginning of the end and we're only now getting from underneath it.

[TonySoprano]

Are you ever going to get it?
Actually, his point about what Angelos said MASN would do for the team's finances is valid.
In answer to your question, now that we have an RSN and we can move forward with it…that is going get us on a more even plane with Boston and New York, and that was the purpose.

Why do we suck so bad against Cleveland?
You can say the same thing thing about us and a number of teams. :D

[PrivateO]

Pretty sure we've had this "Angelos is screwing the team...yada yada yada" conversation before.....

[JTrea81]

Pretty sure we've had this "Angelos is screwing the team...yada yada yada" conversation before.....

True, but under Andy MacPhail these were supposed to stop.

I guess we can see now Angelos will never give Andy the resources he needs to compete because he wants to continue to cry poor (despite owning the broadcasting rights to two MLB teams and a RSN) so the financial picture will change.

It's like he wants the Orioles to be an example of the "have-nots."

It's sad really because I thought he wanted to win badly, and he can't do both...

[RShack]

True, but under Andy MacPhail these were supposed to stop.

I guess we can see now Angelos will never give Andy the resources he needs to compete because he wants to continue to cry poor (despite owning the broadcasting rights to two MLB teams and a RSN) so the financial picture will change.

It's like he wants the Orioles to be an example of the "have-nots."
You're not even sincere about having a discussion. You enjoy showing up and spewing crap, just to see who you can make mad. Not sure why you enjoy it, because it seems pretty twisty to me, but you obviously do. One thing I know for sure is that when you say things like "I'm not trying to get anybody to crack" you are lying through your teeth. You are very careful about not violating the rules, but that doesn't mean you're either sincere or honest. By now it's pretty clear that, except for your superficial act, when it comes to interacting with others in good faith, you are neither. You're a troll who found a loophole, and that's about all you are.

[Miller192]

You're not even sincere about having a discussion. You enjoy showing up and spewing crap, just to see who you can make mad. Not sure why you enjoy it, because it seems pretty twisty to me, but you obviously do. One thing I know for sure is that when you say things like "I'm not trying to get anybody to crack" you are lying through your teeth. You are very careful about not violating the rules, but that doesn't mean you're either sincere or honest. By now it's pretty clear that, except for your superficial act, when it comes to interacting with others in good faith, you are neither. You're a troll who found a loophole, and that's about all you are.

Can't you just put him on ignore?

[RShack]

Can't you just put him on ignore?
I could. But something's wrong when a signifccant number of people have to do that, and when it comes up in thread after thread after thread. How many times have people asked the question you asked, and to how many posters has it been asked? And what is the one common theme to every bit of it? A troll who found a loophole, that's what.

[Sports Guy]

I wish people would quit saying this. Look, he deserves all the blame you can muster for not fixing it until now. But the franchise was in the ground when he got it. Except for 1 fluke year, it had been for years and years...

This is arguably the stupidest point anyone brings up on here....I guess EBW deserves credit for 1996 and 1997 then?

There is absolutely no doubt that PA is the #1 reason this organization has been so bad for so long...To try and pin it on anyone else is both stupid and uneducated.

[Moose Milligan]

I could. But something's wrong when a signifccant number of people have to do that, and when it comes up in thread after thread after thread. How many times have people asked the question you asked, and to how many posters has it been asked? And what is the one common theme to every bit of it? A troll who found a loophole, that's what.

I just figured out how to block him and I'm thankful I did. Of course you can still tell where he leaves his impressions on threads but at least you don't have to read it...or reply to it.

You should do it, it's great.

[Moose Milligan]

There is absolutely no doubt that PA is the #1 reason this organization has been so bad for so long...To try and pin it on anyone else is both stupid and uneducated.

Yes, this is true...you can't blame it on anyone else but him.

I do think he's getting better. What really sucks is that if he were to sell the team today, his ownership would be viewed as a giant black mark on the face of this franchise.

[The Rick]

I could. But something's wrong when a signifccant number of people have to do that, and when it comes up in thread after thread after thread. How many times have people asked the question you asked, and to how many posters has it been asked? And what is the one common theme to every bit of it? A troll who found a loophole, that's what.

You're not exactly uncontroversial, so this is pretty ironic. It's very interesting, but not at all surprising that you can't stand him so much given that your views are the complete opposite.

I don't see a troll who found a loophole. While he annoys the crap out of everyone for his constant negativity, he doesn't bash other people and he's entitled to his opinion. If he's a glass half empty kind of guy, then so be it. You can't expect everyone to wear the orange colored glasses just because you do.

Myself and others have found it best to simply ignore him, and I do that to a lot of people, it's the best way to go. Again, this wreaks of irony in so many ways.

As for the topic at hand--it's pretty disappointing to hear that from PA. I hope his quote about the occasional exception was referring to his willingness to spend what it takes when the team's ready. That was my take away, but I could be completely wrong.

But my bottom line is this... He says that AM doesn't need his help and that he's doing a great job. That's huge! If PA focusing on just the money aspect takes him away from the baseball decisions it's a win win. I'd rather consistently sit close to where we are in payroll and have AM creatively get us to the promise land than spend over our heads and make mistakes while PA is pulling strings behind the curtain.

[Sports Guy]

You're not exactly uncontroversial, so this is pretty ironic. It's very interesting, but not at all surprising that you can't stand him so much given that your views are the complete opposite.

I don't see a troll who found a loophole. While he annoys the crap out of everyone for his constant negativity, he doesn't bash other people and he's entitled to his opinion. If he's a glass half empty kind of guy, then so be it. You can't expect everyone to wear the orange colored glasses just because you do.

Myself and others have found it best to simply ignore him, and I do that to a lot of people, it's the best way to go. Again, this wreaks of irony in so many ways.

As for the topic at hand--it's pretty disappointing to hear that from PA. I hope his quote about the occasional exception was referring to his willingness to spend what it takes when the team's ready. That was my take away, but I could be completely wrong.

But my bottom line is this... He says that AM doesn't need his help and that he's doing a great job. That's huge! If PA focusing on just the money aspect takes him away from the baseball decisions it's a win win. I'd rather consistently sit close to where we are in payroll and have AM creatively get us to the promise land than spend over our heads and make mistakes while PA is pulling strings behind the curtain.
Jtrea at least talks baseball...Give me that everyday of the week over the way Rshack normally posts.

[JimDH]

This is arguably the stupidest point anyone brings up on here....I guess EBW deserves credit for 1996 and 1997 then?

There is absolutely no doubt that PA is the #1 reason this organization has been so bad for so long...To try and pin it on anyone else is both stupid and uneducated.

I know you are but what am I?

[carolinaoriole]

Someone decipher this part for me:



What is PGA saying is the exception to the rule? The Rays? Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it appears he is saying that without spending a ton of money in the East, you can't consistently be competitive. At the same time, he is saying that we are not one of those teams that can spend a lot. So I guess we shouldn't expect to consistently be competitive?

Am I drawing the wrong conclusion here?

He is saying what I would be saying if I owned a baseball team in the major leagues.
Unless you are the yankees you want a salary structure to put your business in a better position to compete.
Baseball is a competition of the field as well as on.
If baseball had a salary structure the yankees would no longer have an advantage.
Anyone on this forum that runs a business will understand this basic business principle.
I think that he is doing a little politicking through the media.
If he could slow down the yankees ability to spend he will make the team more competitive.

[Sports Guy]

I love how PA always likes to cry about this but he has never invested internationally the way he should...he never spent on the draft until recently...He always had poor GMs and never had any direction.

What a cry baby.

[Moose Milligan]

I love how PA always likes to cry about this but he has never invested internationally the way he should...he never spent on the draft until recently...He always had poor GMs and never had any direction.

What a cry baby.

Not to mention crying about the Nats. Somewhat understandable but had he not screwed the franchise the way he did, the Nats wouldn't have made as big of an impact.

[RShack]

I love how PA always likes to cry about this but he has never invested internationally the way he should...he never spent on the draft until recently...He always had poor GMs and never had any direction.

What a cry baby.
Did you even read his quote? All he said was that FA money went nuts, that other teams cannot compete on those terms with the MFY's and BOS, and that MLB needs to fix that. There's nothing wrong with him saying that. Every owner in baseball should be saying the same thing and voting accordingly. As for running things, he obviously didn't have a clue about how to do it. AM is showing him how it's done, and PA is staying out of the way. I really don't see the problem here. Sounds like the usual complaining about what he did in the past, instead of living in the present. How anybody can take what PA said there and turn it into either betrayal or whining is beyond me. I can't believe everybody is reading the same thing.

[Sports Guy]

Not to mention crying about the Nats. Somewhat understandable but had he not screwed the franchise the way he did, the Nats wouldn't have made as big of an impact.

You should have been working down there when it became official that the Nats were going to DC.

They were so shocked and you knew right then and there that they would be using that as an excuse for a long time.

[Sports Guy]

Did you even read his quote? All he said was that FA money went nuts, that other teams cannot compete on those terms with the MFY's and BOS, and that MLB needs to fix that. There's nothing wrong with him saying that. Every owner in baseball should be saying the same thing and voting accordingly. As for running things, he obviously didn't have a clue about how to do it. AM is showing him how it's done, and PA is staying out of the way. I really don't see the problem here. Sounds like the usual complaining about what he did in the past, instead of living in the present. How anybody can take what PA said there and turn it into either betrayal or whining is beyond me. I can't believe everybody is reading the same thing.

LOL...I am living in the past yet you talk about the state of the franchise when PA took it over? LOL Thank you for bringing OldFan and Jtrea logic into this conversation.

And I did read what PA said...I am expanding on the point....If you are going to complain about the economic issues, that's fine...But you need to do other things...like beef up money in the draft, international, etc....That's how you can compete.

And yes, its nice that he is improving now...That's great but you always act like PA was some victim in all of this by the way he is bashed on here and everywhere else...Well, he deserves every bit of it...He drove this franchise into the ground...Not anyone else...This was all him. He has been a terrible and pathetic owner. Its great that he is trying to right that wrong but it never would have had to come to this if he wasn't such a joke to begin with.

[Sports Guy]

This is the same message we have heard from PA for years...Always complaining about money.

Well, some teams are able to get around the money issues by just being smart and doing things the right way.

Took PA years and years to figure this out.

The revenue disparities aren't to blame for our downfall...PA is the reason and nothing else is remotely close.

Hell, he has even run the former Oriole greats out of town for the most part. He is a great lawyer and does a lot for charity but as far as owning a baseball team goes, he is one of the worst owners in sports over the last decade.

[RShack]

LOL...I am living in the past yet you talk about the state of the franchise when PA took it over? LOL
Oh, jeez, all I said was that the franchise was pre-ruined when he got it, contrary to what some have said. I never said he isn't to blame for what occurred on his watch. to the contrary, I said he was. Aren't you able to discriminate between fact and fiction?


And I did read what PA said...I am expanding on the point....If you are going to complain about the economic issues, that's fine...But you need to do other things...like beef up money in the draft, international, etc....That's how you can compete.
SG, he was speaking to the media. You want him to say that everything is fine in MLB, and that money is no obstacle, that the O's should be right there with the MFY's no matter what, and that it's a level playing field? Why should he say something stupid like that? That's a crazy thing for an owner to say. He should say what everybody but Steinbrenner should say, which is that the insane money disparity makes the competition unfair and that MLB should fix that. Every owner should say that, and should vote that way too. But, no, you want him to say things tailored to all the resentment you carry around about the past. The man doesn't know beans about the game of baseball, but he's not stupid enough to say the dumb things you want him to say...

[Sports Guy]

Oh, jeez, all I said was that the franchise was pre-ruined when he got it, contrary to what some have said. I never said he isn't to blame for what occurred on his watch. to the contrary, I said he was. Aren't you able to discriminate between fact and fiction?Who cares that it was in bad shape when he took over? He has had plenty of time to turn it around...If you are going to acknowledge how poor a shape the team was in, then shouldn't the previous ownership get credit for 1996 and 1997?

What happened to us in the late 80s has no bearing on 2002....Plenty of time to turn things around..Instead, he was busy crying about revenue, firing qualified guys(DJ and Gillick) and hiring people who had no business being in the positions they were hired for. That had nothing to do with EBW..That was PGA.


SG, he was speaking to the media. You want him to say that everything is fine in MLB, and that money is no obstacle, that the O's should be right there with the MFY's no matter what, and that it's a level playing field? No, its fine...But its the same message year after year...How about he has some accountability for how awful he has been? Let me tell you something, when I was working there, there was ZERO accountability in that organization. Maybe that has changed but it was always someone else's fault.

[Mad Mark]

We like to think we're special. We like to think our team is special.
Since our team hasn't been good for a long time, we like to think our owner is especially bad; that some other guy at the head of this franchise would have made less of a hash of things than PGA has.
And it's possible that's correct. But it's far more likely that the "some other guy" we wished owned the Orioles could have gummed up the works even worse than Angelos has. Face it: the Orioles haven't had a good owner since the last days of the Hoffbergers. Some have been less bad than the others, or maybe just a different kind of bad...but they've all been bad. Which brings me to the first of my two points: most owners of sports teams are shockingly bad at building sustainable winning franchises. (Most of them appear to be completely miserable human beings as well, but that's a tale for another time.)
My second point is (now and forever...or until it's fixed, whichever comes first) MLB plays on an uneven field. Until that field is even, everyone outside the top five revenue teams has an inbuilt excuse for failure. Especially Baltimore, Tampa Bay and Toronto. I really think that PGA and McPhail may be trying to steer the conversation to addressing MLB's ridiculous revenue situation.
A boy can dream, can't he?

[Sports Guy]

We like to think we're special. We like to think our team is special.
Since our team hasn't been good for a long time, we like to think our owner is especially bad; that some other guy at the head of this franchise would have made less of a hash of things than PGA has.
And it's possible that's correct. But it's far more likely that the "some other guy" we wished owned the Orioles could have gummed up the works even worse than Angelos has. Face it: the Orioles haven't had a good owner since the last days of the Hoffbergers. Some have been less bad than the others, or maybe just a different kind of bad...but they've all been bad. Which brings me to the first of my two points: most owners of sports teams are shockingly bad at building sustainable winning franchises. (Most of them appear to be completely miserable human beings as well, but that's a tale for another time.)
My second point is (now and forever...or until it's fixed, whichever comes first) MLB plays on an uneven field. Until that field is even, everyone outside the top five revenue teams has an inbuilt excuse for failure. Especially Baltimore, Tampa Bay and Toronto. I really think that PGA and McPhail may be trying to steer the conversation to addressing MLB's ridiculous revenue situation.
A boy can dream, can't he?
The thing is, the Orioles can spend more money...They could have a 100 million dollar payroll...They could have 10+ international scouts and more facilities...They could not shy away from the better draft prospects as they have done in the past because of money.

They don't have to spend 150-200 million on the ML payroll...But they do need to spend and they need to do better amateur wise.....All of that is on them...Not MLB. The Orioles have chosen and continue to chose to not do those things.

[JTrea81]

The one thing he shouldn't be doing is undermining his GM by telling people he doesn't think the Orioles can be a perennial contender when his GM has pretty much said the exact opposite of that.

You know, I think the best thing to read in an article about Peter Angelos would be something like this:

"Orioles owner Peter Angelos declined to comment"

[Birds of B'more]

I'm not trying to get anybody to crack.

I'm just saying Angelos has said what Andy is striving for may not be sustainable over the long term unless the financial picture changes.

This is not what what I managed to convince myself we were being sold.

People on here have constantly told me that Andy's plan will work, and that we'll spend money when the time is right and we have a shot to be a contender.

From what I've interpreted using my Orphan Annie Secret Society Decoder, Peter Angelos has just told everybody that pretty much isn't going to happen.

It's very discouraging, and should make people really question the direction of Major League Baseball's revenue disparity, but instead I will come here time and time again and simply say "well Andy, you might have fooled everyone else, but you didn't fool me. I saw right through you all along. Hah!"

When are we going to stop making excuses and lowering our standards when it comes to getting a thorough filtering application for the OH message board?

I couldn't resist fixing this post. :o

[Sports Guy]

The one thing he shouldn't be doing is undermining his GM by telling people he doesn't think the Orioles can be a perennial contender when his GM has pretty much said the exact opposite of that.

You know, I think the best thing to read in an article about Peter Angelos would be something like this:

"Orioles owner Peter Angelos declined to comment"

I think this is his way of trying to get the fans to feel sorry for the team and make it seem like its MLB's fault that we are in the shape we are in.

[JTrea81]

I think this is his way of trying to get the fans to feel sorry for the team and make it seem like its MLB's fault that we are in the shape we are in.

Yeah but I don't like the idea of him using the Orioles as a sacrificial lamb for the greater good of baseball.

Either shut up and play with the big boys or take your ball and go home and sell the team.

Whining won't win anything.

Teams like Philly are able to have a payroll of 100+ million and have won a WS and have multiple playoff appearances. You don't have to be Boston or New York or spend 150-200 million. It's been proven, but you do likely have to spend and commit resources in areas as you said that they aren't willing to do.

[Moose Milligan]

The thing is, the Orioles can spend more money...They could have a 100 million dollar payroll...They could have 10+ international scouts and more facilities...They could not shy away from the better draft prospects as they have done in the past because of money.



Do you think they'll get to this point though?

[RShack]

Who cares that it was in bad shape when he took over? He has had plenty of time to turn it around...If you are going to acknowledge how poor a shape the team was in, then shouldn't the previous ownership get credit for 1996 and 1997?
Huh? That's pretty goofy, SG, even for you ;-)



What happened to us in the late 80s has no bearing on 2002....Plenty of time to turn things around..Instead, he was busy crying about revenue, firing qualified guys(DJ and Gillick) and hiring people who had no business being in the positions they were hired for. That had nothing to do with EBW..That was PGA.
I agree with all that.

All I said was that he bought an organization that was pre-ruined, and that had been ruined for many years. Which he did.

He bought the franchise from a bankrupt NY guy at an auction in NYC to keep the team in Baltimore. Without him, there might not be any Baltimore Orioles anymore. You gotta admit that much: without PA, the Baltimore Orioles might not exist as a MLB team, the franchise could be someplace else. Some out-of-town guy could have changed the name to the Maryland Orioles (or some such crap) and moved them halfway to DC to be more in the middle of the BAL/DC population center. Or an out-of-town owner might have moved them God-knows-where, clearing the decks for a team to come into DC which has the bigger metro area anyway. You know that's what could've happened, because nobody else from the City, nobody else who gave two hoots about Baltimore or what the team means to Baltimore, was gonna buy the team except him. Schaeffer wanted the team in the City, but he wasn't gonna buy the dang franchise. And it's not like MLB had any big loyalty to the City. When it came to having local ownership, it was PA or else.

Once he got the team, he spent lotsa money unwisely trying to buy a ring, and then he discovered he was in over his head and screwed things up rather than change to a better plan. That's the main thing he's guilty of: failing to switch over from the standard dumb new-rich-owner plan to a better plan. Instead, he started throwing monkey wrenches into the works and made things tank to a new all-time low. Nobody disagrees that he did that.

Personally, I think he tried to do the right thing in the wrong way when he brought in Flanny. I think he was trying to resuscitate the Oriole Way then by putting in a guy who had direct ties to it. But he was naive about thinking he could grow a GM with on-the-job training, plus he couldn't bring himself to butt out. So, even when he tried to do the right thing, he wound up doing it in a knuckleheaded way. Things had to suck even worse before he called AM, and AM told him that the only way he would do it was on the condition that PA would butt out. Flanny didn't have the leverage to do that, and PA didn't have the same respect for Flanny as a peer that he has for AM. So, PA's finally doing what he should have done back when he first got the team. I figure he cost us a lost decade. It's normal for rich new owners to screw up for a while after their initial flash in the pan. The only thing that's bizarre to me is how long it took PA to get around to doing the right thing.

[24fps]

Oh, jeez, all I said was that the franchise was pre-ruined when he got it, contrary to what some have said. I never said he isn't to blame for what occurred on his watch. to the contrary, I said he was. Aren't you able to discriminate between fact and fiction?


SG, he was speaking to the media. You want him to say that everything is fine in MLB, and that money is no obstacle, that the O's should be right there with the MFY's no matter what, and that it's a level playing field? Why should he say something stupid like that? That's a crazy thing for an owner to say. He should say what everybody but Steinbrenner should say, which is that the insane money disparity makes the competition unfair and that MLB should fix that. Every owner should say that, and should vote that way too. But, no, you want him to say things tailored to all the resentment you carry around about the past. The man doesn't know beans about the game of baseball, but he's not stupid enough to say the dumb things you want him to say...

But they won't. Nine AL teams are glad they don't have to see the Sox and Yankees very often and sixteen NL teams are well aware that it's not their problem.

As far as I'm concerned, as long as an unbalanced schedule is tolerated, there's no reason to expect change to take place. Problem is, 25 teams can see a benefit in the status quo and only 3 have to take it in the neck.

[TonySoprano]

He bought the franchise from a bankrupt NY guy at an auction in NYC to keep the team in Baltimore. Without him, there might not be any Baltimore Orioles anymore. You gotta admit that much: without PA, the Baltimore Orioles might not exist as a MLB team, the franchise could be someplace else. 100% wrong!

The Orioles were in year two of their lease when Angelos bought them. Are you seriously suggesting that a) Baltimore would have let the new owner out of the lease? ; b) MLB would let Camden Yards go dark two years into its life?

[RShack]

Do you think they'll get to this point though?
I think they can and will support about half the MFY payroll. That's how it used to be when the O's were still good all the time, and I think they'll do about that again. But it makes no sense to want them to ramp it up in a hurry. I don't think they have a long term payroll plan, but I bet AM's got some mid-term payroll outline that looks ahead to keeping guys as well as acquiring guys. As for what the plan is about Caribbean scouting, I have no idea what he's thinking but I bet there's a lot more to what he's doing than we know about. The only reason to think otherwise would be to assume that AM is a dope, which is a demonstrably goofy thought...

[RShack]

100% wrong!

The Orioles were in year two of their lease when Angelos bought them. Are you seriously suggesting that a) Baltimore would have let the new owner out of the lease? ; b) MLB would let Camden Yards go dark two years into its life?
You're right. Duh. I'm sitting here looking at my first year Camden Yards coffee mug and got the year wrong anyway. Must be bedtime...

Although... what happens to the lease if there is no owner? Not saying that would happen, just curious...

[mweb]

I see no reason to complain about what PA said, well unless you just like to bash him and/or the O's whenever possible.

[EL_Coyote]

"If you check the record, the first $10 million player occurred roughly after 1995-96. That's when the numbers [salaries] started getting out of line. And when a couple of teams decided they were going to buy their way into the World Series it became strictly a money game." ~ Peter Angelos

I just thought I would put it out there as an owner of a ML Baseball team the man does have a right to put it out there that he is somewhat dissatisfied with the lack of an even playing field some teams face.

Seems like common sense to me. However the thread seemed to have gotten derailed at points. Anyway, one quote may not mean much to the issue at large but I would guess that at least half the team's in the league aren't thrilled with how things work presently. I'm just saying that he would be foolish not to throw jabs out there now and then regarding salaries. Heaven forbid a few owners get together and do something about it.

Please don't bring up the Luxury Tax again. It's simply not strong enough.

[Dipper9]

Nonsense. We had a competitive team with a young starters in Mussina and McDonald. We had an 89 win team in 1992 and an 85 win team in 1993. In 1994 he took over when Camden Yards was sold out everynight. Hemond built a solid team by the time he took over. We weren't great but to say that the team was ran into the ground isn't accurate.

It is absolutely acurate. Look at the farm system when Angelos took over.

I'll save you the time, since 1982 when Ripken debuted, name 10 star players developed in the O's system. Good luck!

[Dipper9]

That's what it sounds like to me...

And I just love this quote:



In other words, "I'm delighted with my profit margin."

So it is all about the money. Glad to see we keep crying poor with a RSN... :mad:

Yeah! Right! :rolleyes:

Or it could mean, "Man this guy has really turned this roster over in 2 years. We appear on the verge of something good!"

I should prolly stop reading this thread, because the Angelos bashing gets very old to me, very quickly!

[hoosiers]

Yeah! Right! :rolleyes:

Or it could mean, "Man this guy has really turned this roster over in 2 years. We appear on the verge of something good!"

I should prolly stop reading this thread, because the Angelos bashing gets very old to me, very quickly!

Yes, we've not had good direction for most of the past 12 years, but the fact is the NYY spend about $75M-$100M more annually than our peak payroll capacity. That's five to seven all-star level players - which is a ridiculous bar to clear.

MASN is not a magic tonic. Compare the monthly prices and subscribers and advertising revenue for MASN versus the YES network. I expect the Os are better off with MASN than prior, but the network is selling a mediocre product right now.

I understand the venting, but everyone is familiar with the above and it is foolish to expect the Orioles to clear that bar frequently.

[AgentOrange]

I see no reason to complain about what PA said, well unless you just like to bash him and/or the O's whenever possible.

Exactly. This whole thread has been a bunch of garbage. I can't even read this site anymore because of this crap. What exactly do you want the orioles to do? We finally started rebuilding the farm system and that takes time. The only way we will be sustainable is to do that. Macphail is actually doing what we need to xompete but it is never enough for the loudest people on this board. I mean he has built a team that has a great shot at being above .500 with a team that is mainly constructed with young talent either drafted or traded for and its not enough. Unreal.

[Dipper9]

I'm not trying to get anybody to crack.

I'm just saying Angelos has said what Andy is striving for is not possible unless the financial picture changes.

This is not what the fanbase was being sold.

People on here have constantly told me that Andy's plan will work, and that we'll spend money when we need to to become that perennial contender.

From what I've read Peter Angelos has just told everybody that pretty much isn't going to happen.

It's very discouraging, and should make people really question the direction of the franchise, but instead people will make excuses and say "well Andy didn't mean he wanted to build a perennial contender and that's okay."

When are we going to stop making excuses and lowering our standards on where we want the Orioles to be?

Since you don't quite seem to understand what the rest of us do, let me ask you a question. How much is our team payroll going to be in a couple years when ALL of these guys need new bright and shiny contracts?

Jones
Reimold
Wieters
Bell (maybe)
Matusz
Tillman
Arrietta
Bergeson

So throw some conservative numbers in there if you want. Then add in Kakes remaining contract, Roberts, and the rest of the team, and we are well over a $100 million. And all of this is BEFORE we make that final big name, dare I say "premium" FA aquisition.

So Trea, how much will this team cost? Based on your answer, does it STILL seem wise to have a high payroll roster right now?

If you answer "yes" to that final question, I will never, EVER again delve into this conversation with you.

[Dipper9]

I love how PA always likes to cry about this but he has never invested internationally the way he should...he never spent on the draft until recently...He always had poor GMs and never had any direction.

What a cry baby.

All valid points, but is it REALLY so wrong what Angelos said in this article? Hell, we ALL say it all the time...that baseball needs a salary structure. I wish ALL the owners would gang up on Boston and NY and put an end to this, but unfortunately that probably will never happen.

I don't understand why we are using these quotes as an opportunity to blast Angelos instead of applauding him for what he is actually doing...ie a quick first jab at Selig to put a plan into motion.

Oh...right...its Peter Angelos, and its cool to bash him. I got it now! ;)

[wildcard]

I think Peter is a little too pessimistic here. Forget the Yankees for a minute. Can the O's compete with the Red Sox? I say the theory is untested.

The O's have a ball park that at peak capacity will holds 3.9M fans. Boston is at capacity at a little over 3M. The O's drew 3.7M in 1997 which is more then Boston is even capable of drawing in Fenway.

Boston has a cable network that draws from all of New England. The O's have a cable network that covers all of the Baltimore/Washington area plus Virginia, North Carolina, West Virginia and parts of lower Pennsylannia. Though the National are also in that market they nor an other Washington team has ever produced a winner. And the O's owner gets a part of the Nationals cable revenues from MASN.

If MacPhail's plan works and the O's can compete for a playoff spot, what happens to the attendance and cable revenues? We don't know. But if it comes anywhere close to what has happen in Boston then the infrastructure is in place to gather that revenue for the team. That infrastructure wasn't there in 1997 because the O's did not have a cable network. But it is there now.

Peter says ticket prices have to stay low because of the market. But does it really if the O's producing a contender draws great interest from the fan base? We don't know but it would seem that the O's could compete with the Red Sox on a revenue bases if the team could produce a contender for a few years. And that revenue would allow the O's to contend on a yearly basis if it develops.

The major leagues already has in place a method to allow the O's to not have to beat the Yankees during the regular season to get to the World Series. Its the Wild Card. Boston has used to win a couple of World Series, why can't the O's.

I am not trying to say there is a level playing field in baseball. There is not. But the path the O's are on could lead to a franchise similar to the Red Sox in time. I believe the market is there and untapped. It a matter of if the O's can put together a contender for a few years and see what happens.

[JTrea81]

Since you don't quite seem to understand what the rest of us do, let me ask you a question. How much is our team payroll going to be in a couple years when ALL of these guys need new bright and shiny contracts?

Jones
Reimold
Wieters
Bell (maybe)
Matusz
Tillman
Arrietta
Bergeson

So throw some conservative numbers in there if you want. Then add in Kakes remaining contract, Roberts, and the rest of the team, and we are well over a $100 million. And all of this is BEFORE we make that final big name, dare I say "premium" FA aquisition.

So Trea, how much will this team cost? Based on your answer, does it STILL seem wise to have a high payroll roster right now?

If you answer "yes" to that final question, I will never, EVER again delve into this conversation with you.

Keeping all of those players is unrealistic when you look at the roster turnover now. Just look at the difference between the Red Sox than won the WS in 2004 to the Red Sox in 2009. Some players will leave via FA or will be traded, and some we just won't want to extend.

Markakis and Roberts will likely be gone via FA after 2013 and 2014 respectively.

We'll probably only have 3-4 of those players under contract at the most for 2015 and beyond.

[Sports Guy]

Huh? That's pretty goofy, SG, even for you ;-)


.

Oh I get it...We can bring up that it was bad when he took over and use that as an excuse but when it got good quick, that was all PA? Ok, gotcha. Makes a lot of sense. :rolleyes:

[Sports Guy]

All valid points, but is it REALLY so wrong what Angelos said in this article? Hell, we ALL say it all the time...that baseball needs a salary structure. I wish ALL the owners would gang up on Boston and NY and put an end to this, but unfortunately that probably will never happen.

I don't understand why we are using these quotes as an opportunity to blast Angelos instead of applauding him for what he is actually doing...ie a quick first jab at Selig to put a plan into motion.

Oh...right...its Peter Angelos, and its cool to bash him. I got it now! ;)

I have never said that what he said in this article is wrong.

My only point is PA has been saying this same stuff for years...Its always an excuse...There is never accountability.

Do things the right way and you can get around these issues.

[Sports Guy]

Do you think they'll get to this point though?

I think the payroll will get that high...But I don't think they will ever do what they need to do on an amateur level..at least as long as PA is the owner.

[Frobby]

I think it's time to stop arguing about what a bad owner Angelos was in the past, and focus on what he is doing now. To me, it's evident he is letting Andy MacPhail run the show. If the O's can rise to contention soon, the mistakes Angelos made in the 90's and for a good portion of the last decade will seem less relevant. Steinbrenner screwed up the Yankees for a good 15 years, and who remembers that now?

[SilentJames]

I think the next operative question is how long will Angelos remain the primary owner?

Last year I said three years putting his last year of ownership 2012. I think I am sticking by that.

[grimed1]

I think the payroll will get that high...But I don't think they will ever do what they need to do on an amateur level..at least as long as PA is the owner.

You used to work for the O's and I deal with them somewhat because of my profession. Peter is getting old and not in the best of health.I guess his kids
would take over soon. I have dealt with his kids and I am not sure that this might get better soon. I was wondering what you thought of his sons?

[Sports Guy]

You used to work for the O's and I deal with them somewhat because of my profession. Peter is getting old and not in the best of health.I guess his kids
would take over soon. I have dealt with his kids and I am not sure that this might get better soon. I was wondering what you thought of his sons?

I know nothing about Lou....He has no involvement with the team whatsoever...unless that has recently changed.

John knows nothing about baseball and when I was working there, he had no say in anything baseball related...He was involved in sales more than anything...My managers and the sales managers would have meetings with him all the time...He was kind of like the top guy when it came to that.

I never met him but based on things that were always said about him, I think it would be very bad for us if he became the owner. It would almost be like having the family of an evil Caesar taking over Rome.

I don't think things would get better. I think we would have to get lucky, as we pretty much have to do now.

[grimed1]

John is the guy. Louis really does not set foot in the warehouse that often. The sales people I know think John is a pompous person. We can only hope when it is time to sell a Mason or Geipe can buy the team.

[hoosiers]

he never spent on the draft until recently...

This is not true at all. PA spent for 7 first/supplemental first rounders in 99. He spent for 3 first/supplemental firsts in 1998 and several extra first/supplemental first rounders in 2000 and 2001. I believe our total spend in the US draft from 1998-2001 would have to be in the top ten if the top five.

Criticism that is valid is that the organization has fallen far behind in international scouting and spending well-above slot on the US draft on a consistent basis (this has changed recently).

[NewMarketSean]

I wish people would quit saying this. Look, he deserves all the blame you can muster for not fixing it until now. But the franchise was in the ground when he got it. Except for 1 fluke year, it had been for years and years...

And I wish people would stop saying this.

Angelos saved the Orioles and then destroyed them. He restored a derelict house and then let it go to waste again. The state the franchise was in before he got here is meaningless. Throughout the 90's the O's were a competitive team. His lame excuses about economics ruining the Orioles are BS. He thought he knew better than his GM's and then ran the team into the ground to "prove" that the area couldn't support 2 teams.

People should move on re: Angelos, but when he spouts off some crap to distance himself from ruining the franchise, people are going to dredge up the past.

[Shopay]

I think it's time to stop arguing about what a bad owner Angelos was in the past, and focus on what he is doing now. To me, it's evident he is letting Andy MacPhail run the show. If the O's can rise to contention soon, the mistakes Angelos made in the 90's and for a good portion of the last decade will seem less relevant. Steinbrenner screwed up the Yankees for a good 15 years, and who remembers that now?

Exactly. At least it appears that PA finally figured it out. Let's hope he remains on the sidelines and let's AM turn the O's back into a team that competes on a yearly basis.

[NewMarketSean]

I think it's time to stop arguing about what a bad owner Angelos was in the past, and focus on what he is doing now. To me, it's evident he is letting Andy MacPhail run the show. If the O's can rise to contention soon, the mistakes Angelos made in the 90's and for a good portion of the last decade will seem less relevant. Steinbrenner screwed up the Yankees for a good 15 years, and who remembers that now?

He said he is happy with the results MacPhail is getting. I am guessing that factors in money spent & money made. If Angelos was referring to the young talent on the team -- and being happy about that -- he should have said that. So Angelos' quotes are open to interpretation and I am taking that as Angelos being happy that MacPhail is spending less for a few less wins which means more revenue.

[rochester]

Unless attendance around baseball is down 49% since 1997, then Angelos' management of the business has driven away customers.

That's the same strawman argument you continue to make which has no basis in reality. Notice by my putting Angelos at the bottom of the pile, it also puts him behind Eli Jacobs, but that puts a hole in your strawman. Doesn't it?

Ditto.

Way, way too simplistic to make this blanket statement. Yes, the bad product is a factor, but if you don't believe that The Ravens and (especially) Washington getting a team have been just as important then IMO you should think again.

When OPACY opened it was the "cool thing" in the DC area to go to. IIRC I think 40% attendance came from there. Anyway, the stands were full of yuppies talking about their jobs in DC, or talking shop with clients, or being part of the "in-crowd" especially if you had good seats. All that happened was that it wore off. Add on the Nationals and Ravens and budgets have gone elsewhere. What I feel bad about is that, even with the new stadium, the Nationals didn't get that "place to be" attendance lift.

Finally, I agree that the quality of the team(s) do have an effect of keeping away the bandwagoneers. Once (if:eek:) they start contending the attendance will pop.

[LookinUp]

Exactly. At least it appears that PA finally figured it out. Let's hope he remains on the sidelines and let's AM turn the O's back into a team that competes on a yearly basis.

I don't really believe he figured anything out. I think he hired a good person, and he's happy with how things are going. However, I doubt he could make a similarly competent hire if AM decided to head off to the commissionner's office.

[SilentJames]

And I wish people would stop saying this.

Angelos saved the Orioles and then destroyed them. He restored a derelict house and then let it go to waste again. The state the franchise was in before he got here is meaningless. Throughout the 90's the O's were a competitive team. His lame excuses about economics ruining the Orioles are BS. He thought he knew better than his GM's and then ran the team into the ground to "prove" that the area couldn't support 2 teams.

People should move on re: Angelos, but when he spouts off some crap to distance himself from ruining the franchise, people are going to dredge up the past.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/

The Orioles were not very competitive between 83 and Angelos' takeover.

Angelos DID ruin the team with meddling and mismanagement, no question about that - but let's not pretend that he inherited a perennial winner. Aside from a couple good years the decade between 83 and 93 was not a good decade for the Orioles.

I have always looked at Angelos as a tragic figure rather than the malicious super-villain bent on destroying the franchise.

Angelos genuinely believes everything he did was for the good of the team. People who know him will tell you that. But the road to hell is paved in good intentions and the Orioles are where they are now. Thankfully Angelos finally learned his lesson and the Orioles seem to be well on the road to recovery.

[NewMarketSean]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/

The Orioles were not very competitive between 83 and Angelos' takeover.

Angelos DID ruin the team with meddling and mismanagement, no question about that - but let's not pretend that he inherited a perennial winner. Aside from a couple good years the decade between 83 and 93 was not a good decade for the Orioles.

I have always looked at Angelos as a tragic figure rather than the malicious super-villain bent on destroying the franchise.

Angelos genuinely believes everything he did was for the good of the team. People who know him will tell you that. But the road to hell is paved in good intentions and the Orioles are where they are now. Thankfully Angelos finally learned his lesson and the Orioles seem to be well on the road to recovery.

I am not disagreeing with the Orioles being a bad organization pre-Angelos. I am saying that it doesn't matter when talking about Angelos' legacy as owner. Angelos improved the Orioles a ton when he took over. That and OPACY getting built. He was the team's blessing, and it's curse.

[Old#5fan]

Someone decipher this part for me:



What is PGA saying is the exception to the rule? The Rays? Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it appears he is saying that without spending a ton of money in the East, you can't consistently be competitive. At the same time, he is saying that we are not one of those teams that can spend a lot. So I guess we shouldn't expect to consistently be competitive?

Am I drawing the wrong conclusion here?

Of course that is what he has been saying and it corresponds precisely to the results we have been seeing on the field with the Orioles for years and years. Essentially Angelos sort of gave up after the wire to wire year where he outspent everyone and still didn't reach the WS. The Belle signing and results were what changed his spending habits for good. He is just being a realist here and you are absolutely not drawing anything but the correct conclusion here. Why are you even doubting yourself?

[SilentJames]

I am not disagreeing with the Orioles being a bad organization pre-Angelos. I am saying that it doesn't matter when talking about Angelos' legacy as owner. Angelos improved the Orioles a ton when he took over. That and OPACY getting built. He was the team's blessing, and it's curse.

Indeed, but some like to create this fantasy that the Orioles were at the top of the heap before Angelos came into the picture, when the reality is pretty much the opposite.

That is why I say a tragic figure. Angelos found success - then flew a bit too close to the sun. Needlessly poetic - yes. But I think it is a pretty apt analogy.

[NewMarketSean]

Indeed, but some like to create this fantasy that the Orioles were at the top of the heap before Angelos came into the picture, when the reality is pretty much the opposite.

That is why I say a tragic figure. Angelos found success - then flew a bit too close to the sun. Needlessly poetic - yes. But I think it is a pretty apt analogy.

Agreed 100%.

[rochester]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/

The Orioles were not very competitive between 83 and Angelos' takeover.

Angelos DID ruin the team with meddling and mismanagement, no question about that - but let's not pretend that he inherited a perennial winner. Aside from a couple good years the decade between 83 and 93 was not a good decade for the Orioles.

I have always looked at Angelos as a tragic figure rather than the malicious super-villain bent on destroying the franchise.

Angelos genuinely believes everything he did was for the good of the team. People who know him will tell you that. But the road to hell is paved in good intentions and the Orioles are where they are now. Thankfully Angelos finally learned his lesson and the Orioles seem to be well on the road to recovery.

This pretty much sums it up IMO. First and foremost though is the city, then the team. I defend him (on that basis) because I was privy to his reasons to why he bought the team and frankly, was not completely surprised by the meddling. He is a very complicated man - extremely generous but, at the same time, a micro manager in a field (baseball) he had no business micro-managing. Making bad hiring decisions did not help nor does his way of relating to ego-centric people. He also can be loyal to a fault, if there is such a thing. Until AM, I do not believe he fully trusted anyone to run the baseball side - in some cases one can not blame him, on the others? well, the past dozen years answer that.

From my experience he wants to make money which, of course, any competent business man wants - the O's were/are a good investment. On the other hand, nothing would make him happier than riding in a WS victory parade down Pratt Street.

Right now, IMO he "trusts" AM - the only ? is where AM takes the team.

[Frobby]

Indeed, but some like to create this fantasy that the Orioles were at the top of the heap before Angelos came into the picture, when the reality is pretty much the opposite.


Agreed 100%.

Top of the heap, no, but they did have winning seasons in 1992 and 1993 immediately before he bought the team, and in 1994 when he left the existing management intact. So, I wouldn't call that the opposite of top of the heap.

[SilentJames]

Top of the heap, no, but they did have winning seasons in 1992 and 1993 immediately before he bought the team, and in 1994 when he left the existing management intact. So, I wouldn't call that the opposite of top of the heap.

But the eighties were very very poor to the Orioles and saw the complete dismantling of the minor league system.

[Sports Guy]

But the eighties were very very poor to the Orioles and saw the complete dismantling of the minor league system.

And as we have seen, it takes very little time to get that farm system back.

Look, enough excuses about the man...He is awful at being an owner...What happened in the 80s has no bearing on him whatsoever.

He is the sole reason this franchise is a joke...He has/had no idea what he is doing yet he felt that he did. His sons have no idea what they are doing, yet he feels they do.

Call him whatever you want to call him...tyrant, tragic figure, pathetic, whatever....The bottom line is, as an owner of the Baltimore Orioles, he has been awful.

He is a fantastic lawyer...The stuff he does for charities and the community is great and probably why he cherishes guys like Markakis and BRob. His wife is one of the classiest and nicest people you will ever meet.

But, as an owner, he is awful.

Hopefully, he is changing...While I think AM has full reign, I do not believe PA is willing to sink the dollars into FA and international scouting/signings/facilities that is needed....even if AM wants that.

[SilentJames]

And as we have seen, it takes very little time to get that farm system back.

Look, enough excuses about the man...He is awful at being an owner...What happened in the 80s has no bearing on him whatsoever.

He is the sole reason this franchise is a joke...He has/had no idea what he is doing yet he felt that he did. His sons have no idea what they are doing, yet he feels they do.

Call him whatever you want to call him...tyrant, tragic figure, pathetic, whatever....The bottom line is, as an owner of the Baltimore Orioles, he has been awful.

He is a fantastic lawyer...The stuff he does for charities and the community is great and probably why he cherishes guys like Markakis and BRob. His wife is one of the classiest and nicest people you will ever meet.

But, as an owner, he is awful.

Hopefully, he is changing...While I think AM has full reign, I do not believe PA is willing to sink the dollars into FA and international scouting/signings/facilities that is needed....even if AM wants that.

I don't argue with any of that. And I am not making excuses, I am interested in an accurate history that is all.

[Sports Guy]

I don't argue with any of that. And I am not making excuses, I am interested in an accurate history that is all.

That's fine...but the history of what things were like before he took over is meaningless when judging him as an owner...I feel that some people try to use that as an excuse and give him a pass because of it.

[hoosiers]

Hopefully, he is changing...While I think AM has full reign, I do not believe PA is willing to sink the dollars into FA and international scouting/signings/facilities that is needed....even if AM wants that.

I do not believe PA has had a GM to build an appropriate international infrastructure (facilities, scouts) in order to invest competently in talent - until AM. I expectation is that PA will invest internationally at AM's direction and I expect AM will build a top half of baseball international talent machine.

We'll see.

[Sports Guy]

I do not believe PA has had a GM to build an appropriate international infrastructure (facilities, scouts) in order to invest competently in talent - until AM. I expectation is that PA will invest internationally at AM's direction and I expect AM will build a top half of baseball international talent machine.

We'll see.
And whose fault is that?

AM will be gone before that happens IMO.

[grimed1]

What about our Spring Training facilities? They have been a joke for many years. The minor league complex many hours away and the field and clubhouse piss poor. We have been looking for a new home for ages.

[Sports Guy]

What about our Spring Training facilities? They have been a joke for many years. The minor league complex many hours away and the field and clubhouse piss poor. We have been looking for a new home for ages.
Yep...every aspect, under PA, has pretty much been terrible.

The one thing the Orioles excel at is customer service...I will give them credit for that.

[Miller192]

Of course that is what he has been saying and it corresponds precisely to the results we have been seeing on the field with the Orioles for years and years. Essentially Angelos sort of gave up after the wire to wire year where he outspent everyone and still didn't reach the WS. The Belle signing and results were what changed his spending habits for good. He is just being a realist here and you are absolutely not drawing anything but the correct conclusion here. Why are you even doubting yourself?

What he said kind of reminded me of what Ravens President Dick Cass said about the Ravens window closing. He caught hell from all angles on it and had to retract it.

Angelos' sort of painted a picture that fans shouldn't expect to be consistently competitive. I don't know that's the message you want your fans to hear.

[olehippi]

That's fine...but the history of what things were like before he took over is meaningless when judging him as an owner...I feel that some people try to use that as an excuse and give him a pass because of it.

Using this analogy, what happened yesterday is equally meaningless....only what is happening now and what might happen tomorrow have meaning.

Endlessly harping about the past is fruitless. Too many people don't seem to realize that you can't change history. But you can learn from it....which apparently Angelos has....and in the process make the future better. But incredibly, there are those who won't even give him credit for doing that.

[grimed1]

Endlessly harping about the past is fruitless. Too many people don't seem to realize that you can't change history. But you can learn from it....which apparently Angelos has....and in the process make the future better. But incredibly, there are those who won't even give him credit for doing that.

I hope he has learned from the past. MacPhail as Oriole GM, has kept the payroll low. We have not signed a big time free agent. Also if some of our better prospects pan out,we will have to give them a big chunk of change. We will see if Angelos steps up to the plate or does the poor mouth can't compete routine.

[olehippi]

I hope he has learned from the past. MacPhail as Oriole GM, has kept the payroll low. We have not signed a big time free agent. Also if some of our better prospects pan out,we will have to give them a big chunk of change. We will see if Angelos steps up to the plate or does the poor mouth can't compete routine.

You do understand that signing a "big time free agent" at this point in time would be wasting money because it doesn't solve our problem. Without a talented supporting cast, his efforts would be wasted. If you want an example, take a look at the first Tejada signing. We brought in Batman, but didn't bring Robin along.

Right now, we have a young, talented group of kids that need another year of seasoning before they are ready to truly compete. IMO, NEXT YEAR is the year we'll likely see one or two "big time free agent" signings.

[JTrea81]

IMO, NEXT YEAR is the year we'll likely see one or two "big time free agent" signings.

I keep hearing this over and over again. Who?

There is no big time FA that will be available to the Orioles.

Anybody who thinks differently is just setting themselves up for disappointment IMO.

[grimed1]

You do understand that signing a "big time free agent" at this point in time would be wasting money because it doesn't solve our problem. Without a talented supporting cast, his efforts would be wasted. If you want an example, take a look at the first Tejada signing. We brought in Batman, but didn't bring Robin along.

Right now, we have a young, talented group of kids that need another year of seasoning before they are ready to truly compete. IMO, NEXT YEAR is the year we'll likely see one or two "big time free agent" signings.

I understand about a big time free agent now might be wasteful. I want to see in a couple of years if the big boys pan out. Weiters,Jones,and a couple of pitchers if we will step up and sign them.

[Dipper9]

I hope he has learned from the past. MacPhail as Oriole GM, has kept the payroll low. We have not signed a big time free agent. Also if some of our better prospects pan out,we will have to give them a big chunk of change. We will see if Angelos steps up to the plate or does the poor mouth can't compete routine.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2009-01-20/sports/0901190155_1_fielder-nick-markakis-orioles-slugging-percentage

http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20090220&content_id=3854982&vkey=pr_bal&fext=.jsp&c_id=bal

Nah, no chance we wil sign our own players! ;)

[Dipper9]

I keep hearing this over and over again. Who?

There is no big time FA that will be available to the Orioles.

Anybody who thinks differently is just setting themselves up for disappointment IMO.

Psst...there weren't any THIS year either!

[grimed1]

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2009-01-20/sports/0901190155_1_fielder-nick-markakis-orioles-slugging-percentage

http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20090220&content_id=3854982&vkey=pr_bal&fext=.jsp&c_id=bal

Nah, no chance we wil sign our own players! ;)

I know we signed Markakis and Roberts. I want to see when Weiters is due for around $120 million or a pitcher is due around $18 to $20 mil if we sign them. I want to see if we will try like Minnesota is doing with Mauer.

[JTrea81]

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2009-01-20/sports/0901190155_1_fielder-nick-markakis-orioles-slugging-percentage

http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20090220&content_id=3854982&vkey=pr_bal&fext=.jsp&c_id=bal

Nah, no chance we wil sign our own players! ;)

Think we'll give Wieters 180-200+ million?

[Sports Guy]

I keep hearing this over and over again. Who?

There is no big time FA that will be available to the Orioles.

Anybody who thinks differently is just setting themselves up for disappointment IMO.

Well, assuming Lee and Pena make it to FA, they will sort of qualify...Not big time FA in terms of huge contract but they should give "big time FA" production for a shorter time span..ie 2-3 years.

But generally I agree with you...People keep saying this but those saying it don't seem to be looking at what is available for next year and we don't know who will even make it to FA, as they could be locked up sooner...ala Johnson and Hernandez and soon Mauer.

[JTrea81]

Well, assuming Lee and Pena make it to FA, they will sort of qualify...Not big time FA in terms of huge contract but they should give "big time FA" production for a shorter time span..ie 2-3 years.

But generally I agree with you...People keep saying this but those saying it don't seem to be looking at what is available for next year and we don't know who will even make it to FA, as they could be locked up sooner...ala Johnson and Hernandez and soon Mauer.

And there's a possiblity the entire group of Howard, Fielder and Gonzalez won't make it to FA after 2011.

Fielder is probably the most likely of that group to reach FA because of Boras, but the other two could extend (Gonzalez with the team that he's traded to, likely the Red Sox).

[Frobby]

And as we have seen, it takes very little time to get that farm system back.

Not sure I agree with this one point. Yes you can build the talent back pretty quickly, but building the infrastructure (good scouts, good coaches, good farm director, good facilities) can take some time. In that respect, I think Beattie, Flanagan and Duquette sometimes don't get enough credit. Insofar as the domestic operation goes, they did a lot to right the ship before MacPhail arrived. Not so much on the international front, though.

[Frobby]

And there's a possiblity the entire group of Howard, Fielder and Gonzalez won't make it to FA after 2011.

Yep. It's foolish to count on any particular player becoming a free agent 2 years from now.

[TonySoprano]

It is absolutely acurate. Look at the farm system when Angelos took over.

I'll save you the time, since 1982 when Ripken debuted, name 10 star players developed in the O's system. Good luck!Do we get to bring St. Jerry Hoffberger into this discussion then? Hoffberger hired Hank Peters as GM in 1976 Under Hoffberger, from 1976-1979, out of 154 players selected, these are the four, count 'em, four players Peters drafted that reached the Orioles major league team: Cal Ripken, Allan Ramirez, Larry Sheets, Bob Melvin

Edward Bennett Williams compounded Hoffberger's mistake and kept Peters in place through 1987. Under Williams, from 1980-1987, Peters drafted 408 players and of that 15 reached the Orioles major league team: Ken Dixon, John Habyan, Ken Gerhart, Billy Ripken, Jim Traber, Jeff Tackett, Bob Milacki, Jeff Tackett, Jeff Ballard, Pete Stanicek, Pete Harnisch, Anthony Telford, Jack Voigt, Steve Finley, David Segui. Mussina was first drafted in 1987 but didn't sign and went to Stanford.

[Dipper9]

Think we'll give Wieters 180-200+ million?

Can we wait to see if he's WORTH that in 4 years before making that decision?

If I had to answer, and IF he is the type of player we think he will be, then Yes, I would think we will extend him. However, in reality, we could have a new owner by the time this question needs to be answered.

[Old#5fan]

What he said kind of reminded me of what Ravens President Dick Cass said about the Ravens window closing. He caught hell from all angles on it and had to retract it.

Angelos' sort of painted a picture that fans shouldn't expect to be consistently competitive. I don't know that's the message you want your fans to hear.

I agree it may not be what we want to hear but it is reallity and that is better than lying to us.

[Dipper9]

Do we get to bring St. Jerry Hoffberger into this discussion then? Hoffberger hired Hank Peters as GM in 1976 Under Hoffberger, from 1976-1979, out of 154 players selected, these are the four, count 'em, four players Peters drafted that reached the Orioles major league team: Cal Ripken, Allan Ramirez, Larry Sheets, Bob Melvin

Edward Bennett Williams compounded Hoffberger's mistake and kept Peters in place through 1987. Under Williams, from 1980-1987, Peters drafted 408 players and of that 15 reached the Orioles major league team: Ken Dixon, John Habyan, Ken Gerhart, Billy Ripken, Jim Traber, Jeff Tackett, Bob Milacki, Jeff Tackett, Jeff Ballard, Pete Stanicek, Pete Harnisch, Anthony Telford, Jack Voigt, Steve Finley, David Segui. Mussina was first drafted in 1987 but didn't sign and went to Stanford.

Thanks Soprano. You proved the point...the Orioles farm system has absolutely SUCKED for the better part of 30 years!

Now, I am not saying that Angelos couldn't have changed that around after he bought the team, but it does show that he wasn't the ONLY Orioles owner to completely KILL the Oriole Way! The Oriole Way was dead and buried long before Angelos took over. Angelos just dumped concrete over the grave!

[Sports Guy]

Thanks Soprano. You proved the point...the Orioles farm system has absolutely SUCKED for the better part of 30 years!

Now, I am not saying that Angelos couldn't have changed that around after he bought the team, but it does show that he wasn't the ONLY Orioles owner to completely KILL the Oriole Way! The Oriole Way was dead and buried long before Angelos took over. Angelos just dumped concrete over the grave!
What does this matter?

[Miller192]

I agree it may not be what we want to hear but it is reallity and that is better than lying to us.

We could open up a whole new can of worms with this.

I don't think Dave Trembley or Andy MacPhail believe that we can only win once in a while. I don't think they are pouring everything they've got into this to win once a decade. If you and I walked up to AM on the street and said the same thing to him that Angelos said, he'd explain to you why we can win and why we are wrong.

I believe MacPhail is a better baseball mind than Angelos is. So I'm not going to believe we can't be competitive because Angelos says we can't, if AM says we can. I think Angelos is horrible for baseball and I think he's proven that he doesn't know what he's doing. I believed him every year he said things would get better right before our very eyes and they never have. I'm done believing him so I'm not going to do that now.

Given the economics of baseball, if PGA truly believes that we can only be competitive once in a while, then I hope for his sake he is trying to get baseball to change.

This isn't a semiconductor company. If he doesn't think he can win, then he shouldn't own a professional sports franchise.

Again, I don't believe his words here but I can't change how he thinks.

[Dipper9]

What does this matter?

It doesn't. Its meaningless. Just as bashing Angelos is meaningless. The only thing that "matters" is winning. Once that starts we can stop having meaningless discussions about nothing.

[TonySoprano]

Thanks Soprano. You proved the point...the Orioles farm system has absolutely SUCKED for the better part of 30 years!

Now, I am not saying that Angelos couldn't have changed that around after he bought the team, but it does show that he wasn't the ONLY Orioles owner to completely KILL the Oriole Way! The Oriole Way was dead and buried long before Angelos took over. Angelos just dumped concrete over the grave!Via Roland Hemond, Angelos also inherited Gregg Olson, Arthur Rhodes, Ben McDonald, Brad Pennington, Mike Oquist, Gregg Zaun, Mike Mussina, Damon Buford, Mark Smith, Alex Ochoa, Jimmy Haynes, Curtis Goodwin, Jeffrey Hammons, Scott Klingenbeck, Ryan Minor, Rocky Coppinger.

[RShack]

I have never said that what he said in this article is wrong.

My only point is PA has been saying this same stuff for years...Its always an excuse...There is never accountability.
So, you agree that what he said was correct, you just think he shouldn't say anything that's true now because in the past he made bad decisions for years.

You think that, when the press wants him to comment about the state of the club he owns, he should say, "Well, I own the team but, since I did a lousy job before I wised up, I should not and will not say anything about anything to the press until the team is good again." Is that what you think? Or do you just want to rant?

[Sports Guy]

So, you agree that what he said was correct, you just think he shouldn't say anything that's true now because in the past he made bad decisions for years.

You think that, when the press wants him to comment about the state of the club he owns, he should say, "Well, I own the team but, since I did a lousy job before I wised up, I should not and will not say anything about anything to the press until the team is good again." Is that what you think? Or do you just want to rant?I think he should say that I have screwed up for years...and that now I am trying to get this team back to where we need to be...but that it is harder due to the fact of our division.

He wants people to feel sorry for him...He has never taken the accountability he needs to take.

When i worked down there, it was always someone else's fault...Its never the fault of the Orioles...Its MLB..Its DC getting a team, etc....

[Miller192]

I think he should say that I have screwed up for years...and that now I am trying to get this team back to where we need to be...but that it is harder due to the fact of our division.

He wants people to feel sorry for him...He has never taken the accountability he needs to take.

When i worked down there, it was always someone else's fault...Its never the fault of the Orioles...Its MLB..Its DC getting a team, etc....

While I don't believe the man, you are right. He hasn't held himself accountable for the organizations blunders.

If you read his bio in the 2009 Orioles Yearbook, you would think he's the best thing that ever happened to the Baltimore Orioles.

Even Dan Snyder put his face out there recently to apologize to fans.

I'm over all of the agnst towards him though. He's a terrible owner, but I'll be an Orioles fan longer than he will be an owner.

[carolinaoriole]

I do not want to single anyone out but I have to ask.

Are you guys for real?

Do you really believe the stuff that you type?

It is just constant complaining all of the time!!!!

Lighten up enjoy the Orioles.

I have been a fan of this team all of my 50 years thru all sorts of owners. Believe me there are owners of teams that are a lot worse than the one we have.

If I were Angelos and I read some of this silly junk on here I would start doing stuff just to give em something to talk about.

At least he has not moved the team to Indianapolis.

[TonySoprano]

Pete Angelos is not going to take personal responsibility for the past. I'm not sure what that will accomplish anyway. His reputation in baseball can only be salvaged if we get a winning team. I would like to know when, if ever, MASN is going to help level the playing field as he promised. When are we REALLY going to be right on the heels.....or in the faces of NY and Boston?

[Sports Guy]

Pete Angelos is not going to take personal responsibility for the past. I'm not sure what that will accomplish anyway. His reputation in baseball can only be salvaged if we get a winning team. I would like to know when, if ever, MASN is going to help level the playing field as he promised. When are we REALLY going to be right on the heels.....or in the faces of NY and Boston?

I have heard some rumblings that MASN is more lucrative, right now, than the Orioles let on.

How true is that? I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me if it was true.

[JTrea81]

When are we REALLY going to be right on the heels.....or in the faces of NY and Boston?

When he sells the team to an owner that realizes winning will create more profits than just having a perennial losing team with a low payroll.

[TonySoprano]

I have heard some rumblings that MASN is more lucrative, right now, than the Orioles let on.

How true is that? I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me if it was true.

I think the same can be said for all the RSNs. As to MASN, I've read conflicting reports of who owns it, Angelos or the Orioles.

[olehippi]

I keep hearing this over and over again. Who?

There is no big time FA that will be available to the Orioles.

Anybody who thinks differently is just setting themselves up for disappointment IMO.


Wow!....your singular negativity is beyond belief. Come out of that myopic cave every now and then, step into the sunlight, and smell the roses.

It doesn't HAVE to be an FA signing. They also have these things called "trades" that can bring in "super star" players. And by the end of this year, MacPhail will have a much better idea of who might be expendable for such a move.

[napbow]

When he sells the team to an owner that realizes winning will create more profits than just having a perennial losing team with a low payroll.

Question:

If the O's do start winning/competing, do you see the fans coming back to CY like they did in the past?

[TonySoprano]

Wow!....your singular negativity is beyond belief. Come out of that myopic cave every now and then, step into the sunlight, and smell the roses.

It doesn't HAVE to be an FA signing. They also have these things called "trades" that can bring in "super star" players. And by the end of this year, MacPhail will have a much better idea of who might be expendable for such a move.

You must be the only one who missed the hundreds of posts he wrote about trading for Gonzalez. :D

[mweb]

Well, assuming Lee and Pena make it to FA, they will sort of qualify...Not big time FA in terms of huge contract but they should give "big time FA" production for a shorter time span..ie 2-3 years.

But generally I agree with you...People keep saying this but those saying it don't seem to be looking at what is available for next year and we don't know who will even make it to FA, as they could be locked up sooner...ala Johnson and Hernandez and soon Mauer.

Long-term free agents are another thing that's very overrated on here. A guy like Lee, Dunn, or Pena for 2-4 years would be great imo. If we can get a guy like AGon or Fielder for 6-8 years, ok, well that would be better in the short-term, probably not in the long-term. So either are good options and we can win with either.

Werth can also be a good option in the Holliday mold, just for less years and money.

BTW, there should be big free agent pitchers available next off-season. Now obviously that's not AM's style, but of course that didn't stop you and Trea and others from clamoring for Lackey. So if you could have clamored for him this off-season, I can clamor for Lee next year.

So yes, I often say we can wait until next year and beyond for bigger free agents, but unlike you say, I do look at whose available and who will likely extend. I just don't pin all my hopes to signing guys like Holliday as Trea does.

[Frobby]

Question:

If the O's do start winning/competing, do you see the fans coming back to CY like they did in the past?

To me it depends on what you mean by "like they did in the past." I have little doubt that if the Orioles contended for 2-3 years in a row, their attendance would go back over 3 million fans a year. I'm not sure it would get up to the 3.6 mm fan level like we did in 1996-98, because of the fact that the Nats took at least a few hundred thousand fans permanently out of our fan base.

[Shopay]

When he sells the team to an owner that realizes winning will create more profits than just having a perennial losing team with a low payroll.

Trea: No question that PA's meddling set this franchise back for years, but you should not automatically assume that the next owner is going to be any loser with the purse strings. Jerold Hoffberger says hello.

[olehippi]

I have heard some rumblings that MASN is more lucrative, right now, than the Orioles let on.

How true is that? I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me if it was true.

With media advertising revenues down across the board in 2009, including TV, I'm curious where you hear these "rumblings" of MASN being exceedingly lucrative, especially since MASN revenues were flat last year because of falling advertising income.

From the Baltimore Business Journal - Friday 10/30/09

John McGuinness: I think [the Mid-Atlantic Sports Network] could have grown 15 percent this year but we’re going to wind up flat. This region’s marketplace is probably down 15, 25 percent so we’ll take that all day long. But I think what it’s forced us to do and what the advertising community wants more of is the appetite for immediate measurables and fan engagement. For us to do that as a television outlet, we need to embrace new technology and really blow out what we do at Masnsports.com. We’ve had a lot of success there and have dabbled in the mobile marketing space, so that allows us to provide immediate results. We’ve always been able to measure our audience on television, but now it’s how do we touch the consumer who’s watching?

Here’s the link to full article:

http://baltimore.bizjournals.com/baltimore/stories/2009/11/02/focus1.html


Also, here is an article with somewhat dated information about MASN income.

http://baltimoresportsandlife.blogspot.com/2009/01/some-questions-for-baltimore-orioles.html

[ledzepp8]

Oh I get it...We can bring up that it was bad when he took over and use that as an excuse but when it got good quick, that was all PA? Ok, gotcha. Makes a lot of sense. :rolleyes:

Who's using it as an excuse for anything? Shack was responding to the people who always try and claim that Angelos made the team bad. All he said was the team had been neglected and was bad for years before he took over. He wasn't making excuses for anything and even put blame on Angelos.

[tntoriole]

Do we get to bring St. Jerry Hoffberger into this discussion then? Hoffberger hired Hank Peters as GM in 1976 Under Hoffberger, from 1976-1979, out of 154 players selected, these are the four, count 'em, four players Peters drafted that reached the Orioles major league team: Cal Ripken, Allan Ramirez, Larry Sheets, Bob Melvin

Edward Bennett Williams compounded Hoffberger's mistake and kept Peters in place through 1987. Under Williams, from 1980-1987, Peters drafted 408 players and of that 15 reached the Orioles major league team: Ken Dixon, John Habyan, Ken Gerhart, Billy Ripken, Jim Traber, Jeff Tackett, Bob Milacki, Jeff Tackett, Jeff Ballard, Pete Stanicek, Pete Harnisch, Anthony Telford, Jack Voigt, Steve Finley, David Segui. Mussina was first drafted in 1987 but didn't sign and went to Stanford.

Agree...mistakes abound....but, still...Hoffberger's ownership- four World Series appearances, two World Series championships (and 1979 could as easily be counted in his category given that this was EBW's first year of ownership)...EBW- two World Series appearances, one Championship....Eli Jacobs- zip, Angelos- zip...
It is as valid as any other way of thinking about whether the team ownership provides functional or dysfunctional leadership.

[crowmst3k!]

I have heard some rumblings that MASN is more lucrative, right now, than the Orioles let on.

How true is that? I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me if it was true.

In some respects it is more than the Orioles let on, and that is due to the fact that MASN pays the Orioles 20 million for the rights to broadcast the games (MASN lists that as an expense on their P&L, despite the fact that both the Orioles and MASN share common ownership).

Aside from that, I wouldn't think they can do much else to hide the true profit. I mean, I'm sure they make up bogus expenses like every other business does to keep taxes low.

[Mad Mark]

When he sells the team to an owner that realizes winning will create more profits than just having a perennial losing team with a low payroll.

The owners of the Kansas City Royals say "hi"! Given the choice between sitting around not doing much and making $100MM for fielding a losing team or working your ass off and maybe making $115MM for fielding a winning team...which do you think your average septuagenarian billionaire is going to chose?
The absolute most hopeful thing I've ever heard about John Angelos is that he's kind of a slacker. The luckiest thing that could happen to the Orioles would be for JA (if he winds up owning the team) to become a "take the credit for somebody else's work" kind of guy who is smart enough to listen to Andy MacPhail when MacPhail tells him who his successor should be.

[joeyc]

Someone decipher this part for me:



What is PGA saying is the exception to the rule? The Rays? Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it appears he is saying that without spending a ton of money in the East, you can't consistently be competitive. At the same time, he is saying that we are not one of those teams that can spend a lot. So I guess we shouldn't expect to consistently be competitive?

Am I drawing the wrong conclusion here?

That's the way I see it. Not only that, I wonder if that was his way of saying that he won't be able to keep the young talent that we have pined our future hopes on.
I'm not sure he is going to be willing to pay Adam Jones, Matus, Tillman Berguson, Weiters, Reimhold, etc., the money that the Yankees and Redsox are going to be offering them.
If that is the case, I don't think I'll be able to continue to follow this mess, anymore.

[frankpembleton]

Believe me there are owners of teams that are a lot worse than the one we have.

Like who? I'd put Angelos' record of futility up against any current owner....


At least he has not moved the team to Indianapolis.

What a saint!

[Dipper9]

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/schmuck/2010/02/bisciotti_takes_a_swing_at_the.html

Looks like Bisciotti agrees with Angelos. Lets see if he gets bashed as well. :rolleyes:

[TonySoprano]

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/schmuck/2010/02/bisciotti_takes_a_swing_at_the.html

Looks like Bisciotti agrees with Angelos. Lets see if he gets bashed as well. :rolleyes:
Like Angelos, did Bisciotti also say, "now that we have an RSN and we can move forward with it…that is going get us on a more even plane with Boston and New York?"

When Angelos talks about ticket prices, as he did again in this article, he's telling the public you're getting the team you paid for, sorry, it's not going to be good enough most years.

[rochester]

I have heard some rumblings that MASN is more lucrative, right now, than the Orioles let on.

How true is that? I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me if it was true.

so...where did you get this - the guy who had lunch with DT? Gotta love the rumor mill...