Sun: 21 roster spots are set going into Spring Training

[JTrea81]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bal-orioles0213,0,4924460.story

The Orioles are basically looking for a backup catcher and rounding out the bullpen.

This however is not good news:


Pie will be joined on the bench by middle infielder Robert Andino, corner infielder Ty Wigginton and a reserve catcher, which likely will be veteran Chad Moeller, who mentored Wieters and the young pitchers in 2009.

Andino has no business being on a team that is supposed to "win as many games as they can."

Connolly goes on to mention this however:


Offensively, Andino is the most vulnerable, but he is out of options and the Orioles want a utility infielder who can play shortstop, which he proved last year that he could do.

Blake Davis would probably be better offensively than Andino and I know Scott Moore would be.

Hopefully it's just Connolly's thinking that Andino has a spot to lose, and not a preconceived notion by Trembley...

[mweb]

I would probably pick Andino as my last player on the bench. At the very least there's a good case for him imo. So no problem with me.

[McNulty]

I know that no team could ever make the playoffs with a backup like Andino. You have to start one, like the Sox did last year with the Nick Greens of the world.

Give it a rest.

[JTrea81]

I know that no team could ever make the playoffs with a backup like Andino. You have to start one, like the Sox did last year with the Nick Greens of the world.

Give it a rest.

Andino was worse than a replacement player last season as his horrible bat made him worth -0.3 WAR. Green was at least slightly above replacement level at 0.4 WAR.

We can do so much better.

If the club were to sign Nomar on a minor league deal for example, he would be a major improvement over Andino.

You cannot say this team is committed to winning if Andino makes it north with the team without him having a monster spring.

Izturis is injury prone, so can you honestly say you'd be okay with Andino full time at SS for a month?

[SrMeowMeow]

You know what's not important? Our backup infielder.

[carolinaoriole]

I think Andino did a great job last year.
You simply can not judge a player by math only.
You also have to believe your eyes.

[JTrea81]

You know what's not important? Our backup infielder.

And what happens if Izturis only plays 114 games like last year?

All 25 roster spots should be important for a team that wants to win.

[JTrea81]

I think Andino did a great job last year.
You simply can not judge a player by math only.
You also have to believe your eyes.

.222 BA, .274 OBP, .288 SLG, .562 OPS

Yeah he was fantastic... :rolleyestf:

[McNulty]

Andino was worse than a replacement player last season as his horrible bat made him worth -0.3 WAR. Green was at least slightly above replacement level at 0.4 WAR.

We can do so much better.

If the club were to sign Nomar on a minor league deal for example, he would be a major improvement over Andino.

You cannot say this team is committed to winning if Andino makes it north with the team without him having a monster spring.

Izturis is injury prone, so can you honestly say you'd be okay with Andino full time at SS for a month?

And, of course, there's context in your obsession with WAR that you are overlooking. Like sample size.

[Sports Guy]

I think Andino did a great job last year.
You simply can not judge a player by math only.
You also have to believe your eyes.

Are you Stevie Wonder?

Andino is horrible....However, bringing in another back up IFer isn't really going to change things either.

Disappointing to see that right now, DH may be on the outside looking in...I know he didn't do anything to warrant a spot be handed to him but I think he should be in the pen.

[SrMeowMeow]

And what happens if Izturis only plays 114 games like last year?

All 25 roster spots should be important for a team that wants to win.

You really think Scott Moore will be an asset starting 48 games at shortstop?

[McNulty]

Disappointing to see that right now, DH may be on the outside looking in...I know he didn't do anything to warrant a spot be handed to him but I think he should be in the pen.

This is the thing that I would be worried about from that article. Not the backup MIer.

[sdmarkakis]

You really think Scott Moore will be an asset starting 48 games at shortstop?

Yes, yes he does.

[JTrea81]

And, of course, there's context in your obsession with WAR that you are overlooking. Like sample size.

Please tell me you aren't trying to say Andino is a good player.

You shouldn't even say that to disagree with me because he was horrible last season.

Do you understand what "worse than replacement level is?"

[carolinaoriole]

.222 BA, .274 OBP, .288 SLG, .562 OPS

Yeah he was fantastic... :rolleyestf:

There you go again.
The position is back up infielder.
Those numbers look close to the seasons that Mark Belanger use to turn in.

[JTrea81]

You really think Scott Moore will be an asset starting 48 games at shortstop?

I think he'd be more valuable than Andino yes because of his bat.

Moore was a SS when he was drafted and he can play all the IF positions except C.

[mweb]

Andino was worse than a replacement player last season as his horrible bat made him worth -0.3 WAR. Green was at least slightly above replacement level at 0.4 WAR.

We can do so much better.

If the club were to sign Nomar on a minor league deal for example, he would be a major improvement over Andino.

You cannot say this team is committed to winning if Andino makes it north with the team without him having a monster spring.
Izturis is injury prone, so can you honestly say you'd be okay with Andino full time at SS for a month?

A lot of teams that have been committed to winning have had players similar to Andino.

He makes sense as a defensive replacement after Izturis is pinch hit for, which should happen often imo. They could do better at backup SS, but this isn't anything to get up in arms over. The difference between having him on the bench and having Aubrey, Montanez, Moore, or whoever else is very little in terms of wins and losses.

[SrMeowMeow]

I think he'd be more valuable than Andino yes because of his bat.

Moore was a SS when he was drafted and he can play all the IF positions except C.

Scott Moore has played 42 games at shortstop in the minors. He has a fielding percentage of .884.

[carolinaoriole]

Are you Stevie Wonder?

Andino is horrible....However, bringing in another back up IFer isn't really going to change things either.

Disappointing to see that right now, DH may be on the outside looking in...I know he didn't do anything to warrae you nt a spot be handed to him but I think he should be in the pen.

No I am not Stevie Wonder.
Are you Scott Boras??

[JTrea81]

Scott Moore has played 42 games at shortstop in the minors. He has a fielding percentage of .884.

Andino has an career ML OPS of .557.

Is he really a guy you want in the lineup on any day?

We don't have the luxury of just having a defensive replacement. Championship teams can do that because they have the luxury of doing so because of the makeup of their roster.

It doesn't have to be Moore, but he's a better option than Andino, and the Orioles can certainly find an even better option like Nomar if they want.

Going with Andino because he's "out of options" is just a lazy move.

I would laugh hysterically if any team tried to pick him up off of waivers...

[SrMeowMeow]

Andino has an career ML OPS of .557.

Is he really a guy you want in the lineup on any day?

We don't have the luxury of just having a defensive replacement. Championship teams can do that because they have the luxury of doing so because of the makeup of their roster.

Scott Moore can't play shortstop. That kind of rules him out as a backup shortstop.

[JTrea81]

Scott Moore can't play shortstop. That kind of rules him out as a backup shortstop.

I hope he gets a shot at it this spring to prove you wrong...

[McNulty]

Please tell me you aren't trying to say Andino is a good player.

You shouldn't even say that to disagree with me because he was horrible last season.

Do you understand what "worse than replacement level is?"

Edit: And thanks for the assumption that I am unaware of "worse than replacement level". Clearly, I'm the one who needs an education on WAR and replacement level values.

Yes, I'm saying he's a fantastic all world player :rolleyes:

What I'm saying is that sweating the backup middle infielder thing is only something that would concern a person who has an axe to grind. We all wish it was someone better, but every team has weaknesses.

So, again, give it a rest.

[mweb]

Andino has an career ML OPS of .557.

Is he really a guy you want in the lineup on any day?

We don't have the luxury of just having a defensive replacement. Championship teams can do that because they have the luxury of doing so because of the makeup of their roster.

It doesn't have to be Moore, but he's a better option than Andino, and the Orioles can certainly find an even better option like Nomar if they want.

Going with Andino because he's "out of options" is just a lazy move.

Why don't we have the luxury of a defensive replacement? We have two good pinch hitters in Pie and Wigginton and only 1 starter that should be pinch hit for. They also have backup OF and 1B/3B/DH pretty much covered. So what is this other bench player going to do for us? Yeah, if the guy can play SS, he can start occasionally there, but I'd want someone who can field well there.

[JTrea81]

Yes, I'm saying he's a fantastic all world player :rolleyes:

What I'm saying is that sweating the backup middle infielder thing is only something that would concern a person who has an axe to grind. We all wish it was someone better, but every team has weaknesses.

So, again, give it a rest.

Every team doesn't play in the AL East.

Is this season about winning games, or carrying players just because they are out of options?

[SrMeowMeow]

I hope he gets a shot at it this spring to prove you wrong...

Why? He's already proven that he can't play shortstop when he was, first, terrible at shortstop and then permanently moved to another position.

If we're not going to require that our backup shortstop be able to play shortstop, let's just sign Delgado to do it. I'm sure he'll out-OPS Moore.

[JTrea81]

Why don't we have the luxury of a defensive replacement? We have two good pinch hitters in Pie and Wigginton and only 1 starter that should be pinch hit for. They also have backup OF and 1B/3B/DH pretty much covered. So what is this other bench player going to do for us? Yeah, if the guy can play SS, he can start occasionally there, but I'd want someone who can field well there.

Whoever gets that backup middle IFer job will likely see some significant time at SS because Izturis is injury prone, and MacPhail doesn't make moves to fix things very quickly.

I'm sick of Andino coming up with runners on base and we actually have a decent bottom of the lineup it appears so that will probably happen more frequently.

The guy batted .194 with RISP with a .518 OPS.

Andino was the worst hitting backup SS in the majors with 200+ PAs and the 5th worst in the majors overall.

[McNulty]

Is this season about winning games, or carrying players just because they are out of options?

And putting Scott Moore at shortstop is the way to accomplish this? I love your jab at me about how I don't understand below replacement level, yet you have no concern about defense. And you're obsession with him is ridiculous.

[JTrea81]

And putting Scott Moore at shortstop is the way to accomplish this? I love your jab at me about how I don't understand below replacement level, yet you have no concern about defense. And you're obsession with him is ridiculous.

For the combination of offense and defense, Moore at SS would be better than Andino.

And I'm not saying I want him there as my first option.

I'd love to see this team go out and sign Nomar frankly, but if not, Moore is better than anything else we've got for that bench spot IMO.

[SrMeowMeow]

I'm with you, except Scott Moore can't play shortstop. Why do you think he can?

[McNulty]

For the combination of offense and defense, Moore at SS would be better than Andino.

And I'm not saying I want him there as my first option.

I'd love to see this team go out and sign Nomar frankly, but if not, Moore is better than anything else we've got for that bench spot IMO.

You mean the guy who had a -0.3 WAR last year? See how that works?

[JTrea81]

I'm with you, except Scott Moore can't play shortstop. Why do you think he can?

I'd like to see him get a chance. If the Orioles can put Wigginton there, they can give Moore a shot.

[JTrea81]

You mean the guy who had a -0.3 WAR last year? See how that works?

Nomar isn't as dreadful with the bat.

And he can actually still somewhat play SS, having a -4.8 UZR when he played there for the Dodgers in 2008.

The A's tried him at 1B which hurt his value due to his poor fielding there.

Andino's poor value comes from his horrible bat.

Defense doesn't help you when you are at the plate with runners on base.

[Moose Milligan]

This is where MonkeyListed vacates the thread, comes back later after it's died down or the subject has changed and just totally glosses over all the valid points made by several other astute posters.

It's astounding, really.

[SrMeowMeow]

For whatever reason I can't get that super ignore list thing to work. I've adapted my arguing style though - short sentences and inarguable facts that completely contradict things he says. He still doesn't acknowledge me, but at least he can't deflect in the same way.

[McNulty]

This is where MonkeyListed vacates the thread, comes back later after it's died down or the subject has changed and just totally glosses over all the valid points made by several other astute posters.

It's astounding, really.

I was just thinking how I hate being at work without the Monkey List.

[PHRESH]

If Izzy gets injured in ST and is lost for the season, who would be the regular SS on this team? Andino? Tejada?

[The Epic]

If Izzy gets injured in ST and is lost for the season, who would be the regular SS on this team? Andino? Tejada?

Wiggy, of course. :D

[JTrea81]

If Izzy gets injured in ST and is lost for the season, who would be the regular SS on this team? Andino? Tejada?

Andino, which is why I don't want him on this roster period.

I'd rather see Blake Davis get the bench spot than Andino.

[Stacey]

You mean the guy who had a -0.3 WAR last year? See how that works?

Dude you're doing an admirable job here but why even bother getting mixed up with the evil genius? It'll only bring you misery.

[SrMeowMeow]

Andino, which is why I don't want him on this roster period.

I'd rather see Blake Davis get the bench spot than Andino.

Blake Davis: 26 years old, .687 MiL OPS
Robert Andino: 25 years old, .678 MiL OPS

You're right, what a crime. Free Blake Davis!

[JTrea81]

Blake Davis: 26 years old, .687 MiL OPS
Robert Andino: 25 years old, .678 MiL OPS

You're right, what a crime. Free Blake Davis!

Well Moore should get the spot over all current NRIs.

The point is there are better alternatives to Andino, both external and internal.

[SrMeowMeow]

Well Moore should get the spot over all current NRIs.

The point is there are better alternatives to Andino, both external and internal.

Like who? Moore is, again, not a shortstop, and Blake Davis seems to have been dropped at the first sign of trouble.

[Moose Milligan]

Blake Davis: 26 years old, .687 MiL OPS
Robert Andino: 25 years old, .678 MiL OPS

You're right, what a crime. Free Blake Davis!

Rep given. This will be glossed over.

[larrytt]

Scott Moore has played 42 games at shortstop in the minors. He has a fielding percentage of .884.
It seems to me that this should end any discussion of Moore as a utility shortstop, at least until he's proven in the minors that he's improved his defense. I'm confused why anyone would even consider him in this role - if we want a weak defender with a good bat, we already have Wigginton. It'd be nice to have a backup who can hit better than Andino, but Andino plays very good defense and has good speed. If we pinch hit for Izturis late in a game, it means the game is close, and so defense is more important, since he will be playing defense, but he won't hit unless we go into extra innings. And then we can pinch hit again, and send in Wigginton, though only as a last resort. Note that Andino had only two at bats in extra innings in all of last year. In "Late innings of close games," he had only 15 at bats, and got 4 hits. (Side note - if Izturis were injured and out for the season - say, one or two months or more - I'm guessing Tejada would take over there, not Andino.)
-Larrytt

[Moose Milligan]

Last season the Orioles had 6233 plate appearances as a team.

Robert Andino had 215 of those plate appearances.

Or .034 percent of the teams at bats.

This is a huge deal, I assure you.

[Pushmonkey]

What is a "monkey list"?

[The Epic]

Last season the Orioles had 6233 plate appearances as a team.

Robert Andino had 215 of those plate appearances.

Or .034 percent of the teams at bats.

This is a huge deal, I assure you.

Not to be a pedant, but did you mean 3.4%? Or maybe you meant the same thing. But I get what you're saying.

[Moose Milligan]

Not to be a pedant, but did you mean 3.4%? Or maybe you meant the same thing. But I get what you're saying.

Ah, you're right. My bad.

[Stacey]

Ah, you're right. My bad.

Mooses are bad at math.

[The Epic]

That's not the plural for moose.

It's meese. GEEZ, people!

[cmcgarvey]

What is a "monkey list"?The greatest thing since sliced bread and/or caller ID.

[mweb]

Whoever gets that backup middle IFer job will likely see some significant time at SS because Izturis is injury prone, and MacPhail doesn't make moves to fix things very quickly.

I'm sick of Andino coming up with runners on base and we actually have a decent bottom of the lineup it appears so that will probably happen more frequently.

The guy batted .194 with RISP with a .518 OPS.

Andino was the worst hitting backup SS in the majors with 200+ PAs and the 5th worst in the majors overall.

If Cesar goes on the DL, someone else can be brought up. But on regular day to day basis, it doesn't really matter much if Andino or Moore or Aubrey or Montanez is up.

The internal options for someone to fill in for an injured Cesar are pretty bad after Miggy who can obviously be moved over if need be. But of course we already knew that, and that's not what this article or this news is about. If your boy Moore was on the team instead of Andino, the backup SS wouldn't be any better, yet you wouldn't be complaining. So your complaint isn't about the quality of the backup SS.

And really, Tejada is a pretty darn good backup SS. It's just better imo to have someone like Andino as a defensive replacement given our roster.

[hobbycars]

This is a funny thread. Scott Moore should not play SS IMO.

[cmcgarvey]

This is a funny thread. Scott Moore should not play IMO.I'm edited your statement.

[sangar]

I doubt if I'm doing this correctly but I'll give it a shot anyway.

Say Izzy plays the same 114 games as last year. Then say Moore covers the other 48. With his .884 fielding percentage wouldn't this translate to ~33 errors in those 48 games?

I'll take a good fielder with a .562 OPS over a lead footed clod who would hit maybe .125 higher.

[Mad Mark]

What I'm saying is that sweating the backup middle infielder thing is only something that would concern a person who has an axe to grind.

Did someone mention having an axe to grind? :D

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[Mad Mark]

Scott Moore can't play shortstop. That kind of rules him out as a backup shortstop.

Neither can Nomar at this point in his career, but why let facts get in the way of today's screed? :scratchchinhmm:

[Frobby]

When the O's acquired Andino, I think they were thinking of him as someone who had gotten very limited playing time in Florida, and who might hit considerably better if he got more AB, bÃ*sed on how he did his last couple of seasons in the minors. I think they wanted to have a look at him as possibly their long term solution at starting SS when Izzy's contract was up. But Andino's offensive performance last year pretty much quelched that notion.

The way our roster is constructed, we can afford to carry a light hitting back-up SS. No, I don't see Scott Moore filling the backup SS. role, it is highly doubtful he could handle it defensively. However, Blake Davis should be competing for the spot, and I wouldn't have minded if they'd brought in someone on a minor league deal to compete, as well.

[waroriole]

Scott Moore at SS huh? If you're going to go for ridiculous assumptions, why not say Lou Montanez as backup SS? He hits alot better, and he was drafted as a SS too. This is complaining for the sake of complaining.

[Mike B]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bal-orioles0213,0,4924460.story

The Orioles are basically looking for a backup catcher and rounding out the bullpen.

This however is not good news:



Andino has no business being on a team that is supposed to "win as many games as they can."

Zrebiec goes on to mention this however:



Blake Davis would probably be better offensively than Andino and I know Scott Moore would be.

Hopefully it's just Zrebiec's thinking that Andino has a spot to lose, and not a preconceived notion by Trembley...

Scott Moore can not catch a cold let alone play SS. He is not a viable candidate at SS. That would be similar or worse than Wigginton playing SS. Are you related to Moore.

[Mike B]

I think he'd be more valuable than Andino yes because of his bat.

Moore was a SS when he was drafted and he can play all the IF positions except C.

Knowing where to stand does not make you a SS. A lot of guys played SS out of high school or even college but Moore has no business playing SS. Him hitting .250 or going 1 for 4 a day does not help the team as much as a guy like Andino playing and above average SS.

[Mike B]

Blake Davis: 26 years old, .687 MiL OPS
Robert Andino: 25 years old, .678 MiL OPS

You're right, what a crime. Free Blake Davis!

Using facts will get you no where.:)

[Sports Guy]

If Izturis gets hurt, why can't we just bring Davis up when he goes on the DL?

Jtrea...this is the worst argument you have ever had on here.

If you want to complain that AM did a poor job of upgrading our back up MI bench guy, fine...if you want to complain about the idea of the front office saying no Miggy at SS this year, fine.

But to complain that we aren't keeping a back up CIer to be our back up SS is a stupid complaint with no real relevance behind it.

[Sports Guy]

The ironic thing here is Jtrea has argued for guys that have good gloves all offseason...He has argued why Cameron is as good as Bay...Why Figgins should have been signed...etc....

Now, the Orioles decide they want a good glove as a back up IFer and he gets pissed about it...Pretty funny.

I think it is absurd becuase you have Miggy...No reason to carry Andino IMO but the orioles don't want Miggy going back and forth between SS and 3rd, so you need another SS on the roster.

[Hank Scorpio]

Scott Moore at SS huh? If you're going to go for ridiculous assumptions, why not say Lou Montanez as backup SS? He hits alot better, and he was drafted as a SS too. This is complaining for the sake of complaining.

Hey Adam Jones used to play shortstop in high school!!!!! You know, when he was drafted?

Let's make HIM the backup shortstop!!!!!! You have to think outside the box when you play in the AL East...

[Richmond Bird 9]

I think Andy will be checking the waiver wire at the end of spring training.
Remember that is when we got Andino for Penn.

[backwardsk]

The ironic thing here is Jtrea has argued for guys that have good gloves all offseason...He has argued why Cameron is as good as Bay...Why Figgins should have been signed...etc....

Now, the Orioles decide they want a good glove as a back up IFer and he gets pissed about it...Pretty funny.

I think it is absurd becuase you have Miggy...No reason to carry Andino IMO but the orioles don't want Miggy going back and forth between SS and 3rd, so you need another SS on the roster.

Who do you have as the 13th (or 14th) position player?

If Izturis has a serious injury, I see them sliding Tejada back over to short and calling up Bell possibly, or sliding Atkins back over to third. Andino's there to provide a spot start if Izturis is ailing but doesn't require a trip to the DL or needs a day off.

[Sports Guy]

Who do you have as the 13th (or 14th) position player?

If Izturis has a serious injury, I see them sliding Tejada back over to short and calling up Bell possibly, or sliding Atkins back over to third. Andino's there to provide a spot start if Izturis is ailing but doesn't require a trip to the DL or needs a day off.

Miggy can do that though.

As for the bench...Pie, Wiggy, Moeller for sure...I actually agree with Jtrea that i prefer Moore if he is showing he can hit and is healthy..He is versatile..If not, maybe someone like Turner?

[backwardsk]

The Orioles probably will add one more left-handed reliever to the roster for matchup purposes, and that could be veteran Will Ohman, who signed a minor league deal last week. Kranitz said the club could stick with two left-handers, Hendrickson and Gonzalez, but he would like to have a lefty specialist. "We won't do it just to do it, but that would be my preference," Kranitz said.

This is the best part of the article, imo. From Kranitz' mouth, a lefty specialist is preferred, but they won't carry one for the sake of having it. So Ohman's not set in stone and he's not just competing against Castillo and Startup, he's competing against the righties as well.

[backwardsk]

Miggy can do that though.

As for the bench...Pie, Wiggy, Moeller for sure...I actually agree with Jtrea that i prefer Moore if he is showing he can hit and is healthy..He is versatile..If not, maybe someone like Turner?

At that point then, why not sign a better bat to come off the bench like Damon, Branyon, or Dye?

[hatepaste]

Give me a break. The phillies won the world series with:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tagucso01.shtml

In a league where a deep bench is much more important, and a solid hitting OF is much easier to get.

[El Gordo]

The main thing you want from the back up SS is solid close and late defense, when you have PH for Izzy. He'll have many more chances with the glove to screw things up, than he will with the bat. It would be nice to have a guy with a steady glove and a .700+ OPS, but most of those guys are starting SS for other teams.

[Fan of Newhan]

It would have been nice if Justin Turner would have been given more time at SS in Norfolk last year. He'd be a decent option as a "super utility" player for us this year as the 25th man on the roster. Unfortunately, I don't think he's had enough work at the position to be looked at as an option.

Maybe he'll get some more experience in spring training, but I'd prefer Turner over Andino as our back-up middle infielder. Blake Davis would then be the regular starter at AAA and would provide insurance if needed on the big league team.

[JTrea81]

I was assuming that it was Zrebiec that wrote the article but it was Connolly so I've made that correction.

Anyway, Connolly has updated his article to show the 4 roster spots that are up for grabs and who are the 13 candidates:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bal-sp.orioles14feb14,0,2431974.story?page=2&track=rss

So it looks like we'll be going into battle with a bench of Wigginton, Pie, Andino and a backup C.

It won't be pretty if Izturis gets hurt...

[Sports Guy]

I was assuming that it was Zrebiec that wrote the article but it was Connolly so I've made that correction.

Anyway, Connolly has updated his article to show the 4 roster spots that are up for grabs and who are the 13 candidates:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bal-sp.orioles14feb14,0,2431974.story?page=2&track=rss

So it looks like we'll be going into battle with a bench of Wigginton, Pie and Andino and a backup C.

It won't be pretty if Izturis gets hurt...Its not pretty when Izzy is healthy.

[mweb]

The ironic thing here is Jtrea has argued for guys that have good gloves all offseason...He has argued why Cameron is as good as Bay...Why Figgins should have been signed...etc....

Now, the Orioles decide they want a good glove as a back up IFer and he gets pissed about it...Pretty funny.

I think it is absurd becuase you have Miggy...No reason to carry Andino IMO but the orioles don't want Miggy going back and forth between SS and 3rd, so you need another SS on the roster.

Well it's obvioulsy about him being anti AM and pro Moore.

To your last comment, defensive replacement is a reason to carry him. Izturis should be pinch hit for consistently imo. So instead of having the poor defense of Miggy at SS and Wigginton at 3B late in games, you can keep Miggy where he is and have good SS defense. And as I said before, it's not like there's really a need for an extra pinch hitter or backup at any position besides SS. How would Moore be used?

[mweb]

It won't be pretty if Izturis gets hurt...

Again, we already knew that. Well assuming they wouldn't move Miggy over there which I think is quite possible depending on how long Cesar is out. Who they pick for that last bench spot has very little impact on how ugly things will be if Izturis is hurt.

[tvz1997]

Jtrea...this is the worst argument you have ever had on here.



SG, I bask in your wrongness! :D

Again, I point you to the "Tillman is not part of the core because he was not in one certain graphic" thread: http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89714&highlight=tillman

This does go on the greatest hits CD though, hopefully alongside his assertion that both the Sox and Yanks WILL win 100 games this year and that the Os could win 75-80 games but have absolutely zero chance of winning 82.

You know, I could forgive a lot of this nonsense if JTrea had seen something in Moore's actual gameplay that made him more endearing. (Happens to the best of us). Maybe he was actually watching the game when Moore got his one hit with the Os and that made up 3.4% of his lifetime viewing of the Birds, thus swamping his mind with its significance.

[DrungoHazewood]

I didn't bother to wade through all six pages here, but from what I've seen the anti-Andino crowd seems to have glossed over the fact that all of the major projection systems have him with a mid-to-high-600s OPS in 2010. If he has a .675 OPS and fields anything like he did last year he'd be a good regular shortstop. There's certainly a decent argument that his likely performance is worth the 25th slot on the roster, and he clearly brings some assets to the table that someone like Scott Moore doesn't.

[trk001]

Bill James, CHONE and Marcel all project Andino to bat for roughly the same OPS as Izturis this year.

Andino: James - .634 CHONE - .658 Marcel - .675
Izturis: James - .621 CHONE - .635 Marcel - .649

On top of that, Andino got all of 215 plate appearances last year. That's not nearly enough for the front office to have given up on him.

[DrungoHazewood]

Well it's obvioulsy about him being anti AM and pro Moore.

To your last comment, defensive replacement is a reason to carry him. Izturis should be pinch hit for consistently imo. So instead of having the poor defense of Miggy at SS and Wigginton at 3B late in games, you can keep Miggy where he is and have good SS defense. And as I said before, it's not like there's really a need for an extra pinch hitter or backup at any position besides SS. How would Moore be used?

I think there's a good chance there will be many pinch hitting/platooning possibilities at first base. Atkins would have to hit his 90% projections to want him up there all the time against all pitchers in all situations.

[Leitch]

Defense doesn't help you when you are at the plate with runners on base.

Heh, we'll definitely need that help at the plate if Scott Moore's gonna be out there in the field, listing lazily to the left when balls are hit at him

[mweb]

I think there's a good chance there will be many pinch hitting/platooning possibilities at first base. Atkins would have to hit his 90% projections to want him up there all the time against all pitchers in all situations.

If Atkins is playing to the level where Trembley is pinch hitting for him, I don't think Atkins will be starting much longer. Wigginton, Aubrey, Scott, or Snynder would take his place I assume.

Even if Atkins is a guy to be pinch hit for, we still have Wigginton and Pie on the bench as better pinch hitting options than Moore, who likely would only be a better option to hit than Cesar anyway.

[DrungoHazewood]

If Atkins is playing to the level where Trembley is pinch hitting for him, I don't think Atkins will be starting much longer. Wigginton, Aubrey, Scott, or Snynder would take his place I assume.

Even if Atkins is a guy to be pinch hit for, we still have Wigginton and Pie on the bench as better pinch hitting options than Moore, who likely would only be a better option to hit than Cesar anyway.

I guess this isn't going to happen in the real world in 2010 with Trembley managing, but Atkins would almost certainly be more valuable if he sat or was pinch hit for against, like, 50% of righties.

[mweb]

I guess this isn't going to happen in the real world in 2010 with Trembley managing, but Atkins would almost certainly be more valuable if he sat or was pinch hit for against, like, 50% of righties.

Yeah, I don't see that happening unless he really struggles. Also the initial 25 man roster shouldn't take into consideration the possibility of Atkins being bad imo. If he doesn't bounce back, an additional roster move can be made at that time to adjust.

So at the moment, there isn't a reason to plan on him being pinch hit for.

Even if he was platooned, I think that should mean (if we're talking about things we'd like) Scott at 1B and Pie in the OF with Reimold at DH. So even then, what does a Moore type do for you? Wigginton and Atkins would still likely be higher on the pinch hitting pecking order. I guess you could argue that he'd make more sense facing a righty.

[Art Wing]

SG, I bask in your wrongness! :D

Again, I point you to the "Tillman is not part of the core beacause he has not in one certain graphic" thread: http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89714&highlight=tillman


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

A gem of a thread!

[scOtt]

Andino was worse than a replacement player last season as his horrible bat made him worth -0.3 WAR. Green was at least slightly above replacement level at 0.4 WAR.

We can do so much better.

If the club were to sign Nomar on a minor league deal for example, he would be a major improvement over Andino.

You cannot say this team is committed to winning if Andino makes it north with the team without him having a monster spring.

Izturis is injury prone, so can you honestly say you'd be okay with Andino full time at SS for a month?
You're an idiot! Nomar is better because he's not on our team! Or that's how you see baseball life.

1. If he's on our team he's no good.
2. If he's on another team he's an upgrade.

:rolleyes:


Stick that in your WAR pipe and smoke it.

[vatech1994]

SG, I bask in your wrongness! :D

Again, I point you to the "Tillman is not part of the core because he was not in one certain graphic" thread: http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89714&highlight=tillman

This does go on the greatest hits CD though, hopefully alongside his assertion that both the Sox and Yanks WILL win 100 games this year and that the Os could win 75-80 games but have absolutely zero chance of winning 82.

Yeh, I agree. As "creative" as the Scot Moore for back IF idea is, I'm not sure it even makes the top 10 list. Larytt, if you're looking for a good Top 10 list with plenty of opportunities for humor, I'd do one on JTrea's "ideas" and "assertions". Heck, I think he has provided so much material that you could do a JTrea top 10 list with more specific criteria:

Top 10 draft ideas - My personal favorite was how pitchers have a high attrition rate so GMs shouldn't draft them in the 1st round. That one was priceless, but there are many others.
Top 10 free agent ideas - Jamie Moyer, Matt Holiday, John Lackey, Derrick Lowe, the list goes on and on
Top 10 "this is what the Orioles will do" predictions - His repeated assertion that the Orioles were going to let Roberts and Markakis walk rather than signing them made just weeks before they were both signed to long term deals is my personal favorite, but there are countless others to choose from.
Top 10 obsessions - Tex would definitely lead the list, but Scott Moore has a lot of pluck for someone who has done so little to distinguish himself.
Top 10 "The Yanks & Red Sox have gotten so good that nobody will ever win another game" diatribes - #1 better be the 100 wins for each this season or there is no justice :D
Top 10 conspiracy theories - You may have to further split this up into more specific categories. Otherwise many deserving conspiracy theories will be ignored. I agree with you that the Tillman/core one is the shining example.


I could go on and on and on. I think this is a reasonable thing to do. We could make top 10 lists and then have folks vote on the "winner". So long as we use his own posts w/o adding any of our own critiques this should be completely within board rules. Trea has put so much time and effort into developing this brigade of gems that it would seem like we were ignoring a master in his prime if we didn't honor the material formally. Categorizing, analyzing, and ranking is what baseball fans love to do so we'd really be paying homage to the evil genious.

This would be perfect on the non-baseball board. Who is with me?

[vatech1994]

Edited so he won't get banned

Stick that in your WAR pipe and smoke it.

Scott, my friend, don't let your frustration with this guy's xlslfasofqjwfof get you banned. He isn't worth it. Go back and delete or modify that post.

I find it much more agreeable to mock but within the board rules. He isn't the only one with loopholes.

[Millennium]

I'm normally just a guy that hangs in the shadows and reads about my favorite baseball team, but this brings me out to talk. I know my opinion isn't the biggest, or the best, especially due to my post count, but this is getting a little ridiculous.

Andino isn't being kept for his bat. He's not ever going to be brought in as a pinch hitter. You keep a guy like this on your team as a defensive player coming in to play the most important DEFENSIVE position on the diamond. Andino has proven that he can hold up defensively, which is what he is asked to do.

You can't get the 25th guy on your bench because of his bat. You get him because of his glove. And this is even more true when you have a ton of young pitching that will rely on good defense up the middle of the field.

How many booted balls at shortstop have to happen before a Tillman or a Bergesen start worrying what's going to happen when they pitch for groundballs? You think Tillman had homerun issues before? What is going to happen if he doesn't trust his infield?

Just my opinion, of course, but it's getting old watching every other Andino reference turn into a shot against his bat. We know he has a weak bat, but his glove makes up for it in the role he plays on this team.

[JTrea81]

I'm normally just a guy that hangs in the shadows and reads about my favorite baseball team, but this brings me out to talk. I know my opinion isn't the biggest, or the best, especially due to my post count, but this is getting a little ridiculous.

Andino isn't being kept for his bat. He's not ever going to be brought in as a pinch hitter. You keep a guy like this on your team as a defensive player coming in to play the most important DEFENSIVE position on the diamond. Andino has proven that he can hold up defensively, which is what he is asked to do.

You can't get the 25th guy on your bench because of his bat. You get him because of his glove. And this is even more true when you have a ton of young pitching that will rely on good defense up the middle of the field.

How many booted balls at shortstop have to happen before a Tillman or a Bergesen start worrying what's going to happen when they pitch for groundballs? You think Tillman had homerun issues before? What is going to happen if he doesn't trust his infield?

Just my opinion, of course, but it's getting old watching every other Andino reference turn into a shot against his bat. We know he has a weak bat, but his glove makes up for it in the role he plays on this team.

His glove doesn't make up for his weak bat at all.

The Orioles could have signed one of Hairston, Uribe, or Nick Green himself for example, and could have got a lot more value out of that roster spot but they didn't.

This team doesn't have enough talent on the roster to have a defensive replacement taking up one of the spots.

Andino limits what the Orioles can do.

[El Gordo]

His glove doesn't make up for his weak bat at all.

The Orioles could have signed one of Hairston, Uribe, or Nick Green himself for example, and could have got a lot more value out of that roster spot but they didn't.

This team doesn't have enough talent on the roster to have a defensive replacement taking up one of the spots.

Andino limits what the Orioles can do.Of course it does. He isn't going to be used in situations where his bat is crucial, he will be, in situations where his glove is. None of Hairston, Green or Uribe are as good a fielder. Hairston and Uribe might make sense if youdidn't have Wiggi.

[scOtt]

Scott, my friend, don't let your frustration with this guy's xlslfasofqjwfof get you banned. He isn't worth it. Go back and delete or modify that post.

I find it much more agreeable to mock but within the board rules. He isn't the only one with loopholes.
Just an infraction. :p



EDIT: And I am in no way laughing at the board. Sorry for going too far.

[bej6789]

A 7 page thread over Andino is ridiculous during spring training, during the season, during the postseason... yet we're sitting here talking about it BEFORE THE FIRST PITCH OF SPRING TRAINING.

[Pushmonkey]

I think House should be the back up catcher. I think we need to trade for Jack Cust to be our starting DH. I think that the O's need to sign Blaylock to be the starting first basemen.

[scOtt]

A 7 page thread over Andino is ridiculous during spring training, during the season, during the postseason... yet we're sitting here talking about it BEFORE THE FIRST PITCH OF SPRING TRAINING.
It's what we do here...



:D

[scOtt]

I'm normally just a guy that hangs in the shadows and reads about my favorite baseball team, but this brings me out to talk. I know my opinion isn't the biggest, or the best, especially due to my post count, but this is getting a little ridiculous.

Andino isn't being kept for his bat. He's not ever going to be brought in as a pinch hitter. You keep a guy like this on your team as a defensive player coming in to play the most important DEFENSIVE position on the diamond. Andino has proven that he can hold up defensively, which is what he is asked to do.

You can't get the 25th guy on your bench because of his bat. You get him because of his glove. And this is even more true when you have a ton of young pitching that will rely on good defense up the middle of the field.

How many booted balls at shortstop have to happen before a Tillman or a Bergesen start worrying what's going to happen when they pitch for groundballs? You think Tillman had homerun issues before? What is going to happen if he doesn't trust his infield?

Just my opinion, of course, but it's getting old watching every other Andino reference turn into a shot against his bat. We know he has a weak bat, but his glove makes up for it in the role he plays on this team.
And last year, when Izzy went down with the appendix, Andino proved to be a pesky damn hitter. It seemed like he was always on the bases. I know overall he's really next to nothing.... but he's a good insurance policy.

[SrMeowMeow]

And last year, when Izzy went down with the appendix, Andino proved to be a pesky damn hitter. It seemed like he was always on the bases. I know overall he's really next to nothing.... but he's a good insurance policy.

It seemed like he was on base WAY more than 27.4% of the time. But, he wasn't. :D

[carolinaoriole]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bal-orioles0213,0,4924460.story

The Orioles are basically looking for a backup catcher and rounding out the bullpen.

This however is not good news:



Andino has no business being on a team that is supposed to "win as many games as they can."

Connolly goes on to mention this however:



Blake Davis would probably be better offensively than Andino and I know Scott Moore would be.

Hopefully it's just Connolly's thinking that Andino has a spot to lose, and not a preconceived notion by Trembley...

This is a real positive article on the Orioles.
I can not find one negative thing in it except that Bergeson will be playing catch up.

[El Gordo]

And last year, when Izzy went down with the appendix, Andino proved to be a pesky damn hitter. It seemed like he was always on the bases. I know overall he's really next to nothing.... but he's a good insurance policy.Andino, like most hitters, is better when he gets regular AB's. It's no wonder he hit well when he had a months worth of steady AB's. He doesn't do it off the bench. As Drungo pointed out earlier he's a border line starting SS. We are lucky to have him on the bench. He has the tools to be a better SS than Izzy, he just lacks the maturity and opportunity IMO.

[24fps]

It's what we do here...



:D


Indeed. I was about to comment on the restraint everyone here is demonstrating.


;)

[scOtt]

I think House should be the back up catcher. I think we need to trade for Jack Cust to be our starting DH. I think that the O's need to sign Blaylock to be the starting first basemen.

I've seen Moeller interviewed several times... and he is a together dude. Almost a coach. He knows the WHOLE game from the Manager to the Catcher to the Pitcher to the SS who is also in tune... and then to the WHOLE of the rest of the onfield squad. Besides the batting and laser-arm-throwing thingy... I'd rather have Moeller out there than Wieters anytime. ;) Seriously.

[Dipper9]

I think Andino did a great job last year.
You simply can not judge a player by math only.
You also have to believe your eyes.

Then obviously you didn't watch him play much!

[Dipper9]

Whoever gets that backup middle IFer job will likely see some significant time at SS because Izturis is injury prone, and MacPhail doesn't make moves to fix things very quickly.

I'm sick of Andino coming up with runners on base and we actually have a decent bottom of the lineup it appears so that will probably happen more frequently.

The guy batted .194 with RISP with a .518 OPS.

Andino was the worst hitting backup SS in the majors with 200+ PAs and the 5th worst in the majors overall.

I agree wih you in principle, but I have a feeling that if Izzy goes down with a significant injury, then Blake Davis or another minor league SS who is doing well would be called up to take the starter spot until Izzy came back. Andino cannot be counted on in an everyday role if Izzy goes down, that's for damn sure.

[DrungoHazewood]

His glove doesn't make up for his weak bat at all.

The Orioles could have signed one of Hairston, Uribe, or Nick Green himself for example, and could have got a lot more value out of that roster spot but they didn't.

This team doesn't have enough talent on the roster to have a defensive replacement taking up one of the spots.

Andino limits what the Orioles can do.

This is all true if you believe that he's a .550 OPS hitter. But even your favorite projection system, CHONE, thinks he's more like a .650-.675 hitter. So even if he's a MLB-average glove at SS he's capable of being an asset. Heck, if he lives up to his average projection across all the major systems, he might be as good as, or even better than, Izturis.

You live and die with cherry-picked numbers. You'll get us into a 14-page thread on the basis of a misinterpreted projection (the fan's pitching projection thing) off of Fangraphs, you'll continually highlight Scott Moore's fraction of a single win advantage over Wigginton in one system, but you'll completely ignore all Andino projections when it helps your agenda.

[Dipper9]

I think House should be the back up catcher. I think we need to trade for Jack Cust to be our starting DH. I think that the O's need to sign Blaylock to be the starting first basemen.

Oh geeze, Knott this again! :laughlol:

[crawjo]

Andino has an career ML OPS of .557.

Is he really a guy you want in the lineup on any day?

We don't have the luxury of just having a defensive replacement. Championship teams can do that because they have the luxury of doing so because of the makeup of their roster.

It doesn't have to be Moore, but he's a better option than Andino, and the Orioles can certainly find an even better option like Nomar if they want.

Going with Andino because he's "out of options" is just a lazy move.

I would laugh hysterically if any team tried to pick him up off of waivers...

A couple things:

1. You continually mistake the meaning of "wins matter." It does not mean "win as many games as possible." Those are not the same things. Think about it long and hard until you figure out why that is, because I'm not going to explain it to you.

2. Defense matters. The fact that you would even entertain the idea of Nomar as the backup SS shows that you are disconnected from reality. Further, the fact that Scott Moore was "drafted as a SS" is utterly meaningless in the context of this season. The club is going to prioritize defense at that position. That's obvious. They aren't going to put a defensive butcher out there just so he can be slightly above replacement level. Give it a rest.

[Babypowder]

This is all true if you believe that he's a .550 OPS hitter. But even your favorite projection system, CHONE, thinks he's more like a .650-.675 hitter. So even if he's a MLB-average glove at SS he's capable of being an asset. Heck, if he lives up to his average projection across all the major systems, he might be as good as, or even better than, Izturis.

You live and die with cherry-picked numbers. You'll get us into a 14-page thread on the basis of a misinterpreted projection (the fan's pitching projection thing) off of Fangraphs, you'll continually highlight Scott Moore's fraction of a single win advantage over Wigginton in one system, but you'll completely ignore all Andino projections when it helps your agenda.

I'm with you on this one. I actually think it is likely that Andino is a better hitter than Izturis in a seasons worth of at bats and he will play comparable defense. IMO Andino has a bit more range but I like Cesars arm better. Neither of them is a great option and we obviously need an upgrade, but I think it is debatable who is the better player between the two of them.

[JTrea81]

A couple things:

1. You continually mistake the meaning of "wins matter." It does not mean "win as many games as possible." Those are not the same things. Think about it long and hard until you figure out why that is, because I'm not going to explain it to you.

"To give [Trembley] every chance going forward and to win as many games as we can and show meaningful improvement in the standings, which I think we need to do starting in 2010, it's our job in the front office -- mine specifically and in particular -- to augment, to give him as much help as we possibly can going towards that goal." - Andy MacPhail 10/2/09

Was MacPhail lying then?



2. Defense matters. The fact that you would even entertain the idea of Nomar as the backup SS shows that you are disconnected from reality. Further, the fact that Scott Moore was "drafted as a SS" is utterly meaningless in the context of this season. The club is going to prioritize defense at that position. That's obvious. They aren't going to put a defensive butcher out there just so he can be slightly above replacement level. Give it a rest.

How do you know Moore would be a defensive butcher?

He's never had an extended chance to play at SS since the early minors.

He had all of 7 games in Norfolk.

[Dipper9]

"To give [Trembley] every chance going forward and to win as many games as we can and show meaningful improvement in the standings, which I think we need to do starting in 2010, it's our job in the front office -- mine specifically and in particular -- to augment, to give him as much help as we possibly can going towards that goal." - Andy MacPhail 10/2/09

Was MacPhail lying then?



How do you know Moore would be a defensive butcher?

He's never had an extended chance to play at SS since the early minors.

He had all of 7 games in Norfolk.


Aren't you the same one complaining about Miggy taking 100 games before he gets comfy at third? but yet you think Moore will be fine at short and we should all give him a chance? :rolleyes:

[sdmarkakis]

How do you know Moore would be a defensive butcher?

He's never had an extended chance to play at SS since the early minors.

He had all of 7 games in Norfolk.

I think you and I both know that Moore would be awful at SS. That's why he doesn't play there. Or do you think our organization is so deep at SS that they could afford to move him to another position? :laughlol:

[JTrea81]

Aren't you the same one complaining about Miggy taking 100 games before he gets comfy at third? but yet you think Moore will be fine at short and we should all give him a chance? :rolleyes:

Unlike Tejada at 3B, Moore has played SS professionally before and started there early in his career. Tejada has never played 3B professionally.

[larrytt]

Andino was the worst hitting backup SS in the majors with 200+ PAs and the 5th worst in the majors overall.
This statement has been bothering me, so I'll comment on it. Very few backup utility infielders (and that's what he is, not just a backup SS) get 200+ PA, so saying he's the worst of them doesn't really mean much, since we're talking only a few players. The only reason he had 215 PA's was because of Izturis's fluky appendicitis, which could happen to anyone. It's unlikely that Andino will get even 100 PA this year. Also, while he hasn't shown much of a major league bat yet, I'm guessing he's above average defensively among utility infielders.

Perhaps more importantly, it's quite likely he's going to hit better than before. Several people have pointed out that he's projected by the major stat people to hit better, and that he hasn't really had enough major league at bats to really judge him yet. I think the stat people might be looking at his 201 PA at AAA in 2008, where he batted .287 with an on base percentage of .356, slugging .497 for an OPS of .853. Again, not enough to really judge him, but definitely showing some promise and potential beyond what he did last year.

For perspective, on June 23, 2006, Markakis had 215 PA for the year - like Andino last year - with an OPS of .628. It was Markakis's rookie year, but last year was also the first time Andino had more than 68 PA in a year. I don't expect Andino to hit like Markakis, but it's likely he'll end up hitting better than Izturis, with a glove that's almost as good.
-Larrytt

[DrungoHazewood]

How do you know Moore would be a defensive butcher?

He's never had an extended chance to play at SS since the early minors.

He had all of 7 games in Norfolk.

Common sense. He's not even regarded as a particularly good corner infielder. You know the reason that Moore hasn't had a chance to play shortstop since the low minors? I don't either, but in 99% of the cases it's because almost everyone who's a pro prospect was a SS/CF/P as an amateur and most of them are butchers at those positions as pros. It's highly likely that Moore was moved from SS to 3B/1B because he couldn't handle short at even a AA level.

CHONE projects Moore to be a -9 in 114 games at 1B/3B. It would be utterly astonishing if that translated to anything but abysmal at short.

[DrungoHazewood]

Unlike Tejada at 3B, Moore has played SS professionally before and started there early in his career. Tejada has never played 3B professionally.

Again, twisted logic. It's utterly commonplace for a shortstop with a good bat to slide down to third when his glove slips. Just as it's completely unremarkable for a guy who's a fair shortstop in his teens and early 20s to slide down to third when it's clear he can't handle the position against good competition.

It's almost a dead-lock certainty that Tejada will be able to handle third better than Moore could handle short.

[Dipper9]

Unlike Tejada at 3B, Moore has played SS professionally before and started there early in his career. Tejada has never played 3B professionally.


So 42 games played at shortstop sporadically over his career show that he can handle the glove at shortstop? 35 of which came in 2002? WOW Trea. This is a stretch argument even for you! :rolleyes:

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/Fielding/M/Scott-Moore.shtml

[SilentJames]

Trea have you seen Moore play SS? Like personally seen him play?

[DrungoHazewood]

So 42 games played at shortstop sporadically over his career show that he can handle the glove at shortstop? 35 of which came in 2002? WOW Trea. This is a stretch argument even for you! :rolleyes:

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/Fielding/M/Scott-Moore.shtml

This is the Luis Montanez argument. If player was shortstop in high school/college/Midwest League then he's obviously a shortstop in the majors.

Matt Stairs played more 2B than Moore has played at short. Same with Brian Roberts at short. So I'm now advocating the O's 2010 infield should include Roberts at SS, and Matt Stairs at second. If they played the position for a handful of games years ago, why not?

[JTrea81]

Trea have you seen Moore play SS? Like personally seen him play?

Have you seen him play SS?

If somebody who has seen him play SS has an opinion that he's not very good, I'd welcome it, but for now I don't see anything that says he's a horrible SS.

He simply doesn't have enough games played at the position to tell me that.

The Orioles tried him there in ST and in Norfolk in 2008 so they must have at least wanted a look at him there.

Utility IFer is his best shot to stick in the majors, so he should at least get a shot at it IMO. Andino's defense simply isn't good enough to justify a roster spot on him just for that. Moore's bat is more valuable than Andino's defense IMO.

Luis Hernandez was a more valuable player than Andino last season both defensively and offensively. And we all thought he didn't belong on the team in 2008.

[tvz1997]

Have you seen him play SS?

If somebody who has seen him play SS has an opinion that he's not very good, I'd welcome it, but for now I don't see anything that says he's a horrible SS.

He simply doesn't have enough games played at the position to tell me that.

This is the most enfuriating part of your solipsism. You overstated your case for Scott Moore as you tend to do and you have backed yourself into the corner of defending an indefensible position when all you had to do was say "yeah, you know, I probably think more of the guy than I should, but I'm a fan you know?"

I don't know of it is pride or lunacy or just that your world is so self-contained, but there is no intellectual integrity to the things that you say when it comes to 90% of what you say you believe about your various topics of obsession.

[larrytt]

I think the stat people might be looking at his 201 PA at AAA in 2008, where he batted .287 with an on base percentage of .356, slugging .497 for an OPS of .853.
-Larrytt
Here's an interesting thought. As noted above, Andino had an .853 OPS at AAA in 2008 in 201 PA. In 2008 and 2009, Scott Moore had 318 and 125 PA at AAA in Norfolk, with respective OPS's of .729 and .796. And Andino's five months younger. Hmmmm.... :)

In fairness to Moore, he had a much better minor league hitting record than Andino before 2008. On the other hand, in his 103 major league PA, Moore has an OPS of .665.

Plus, as noted elsewhere, he hasn't really been a shortstop since 2002 - there's a reason why he's only played 9 games at SS in the last seven years. This might have something to do with his .884 fielding percentage at the position in 42 games. At 3rd, where he's played regularly since 2002 (601 games), he has a fielding percentage of just .915, not much better. He fielded .898 at 3rd last year, .931 the year before, so he doesn't seem to be getting better. For perspective, Mora had a .971 fielding percentage last year at 3rd (lifetime .961), while Izturis and Andino at SS were at .984 and .968. Even Atkins, considered one of the worst defensive 3rd basemen, has a lifetime .954 fielding percentage (642 games).

Moore is NOT the type of player you want playing defense in a close game, or any other time for that matter, and that's top priority for a utility infielder. Maybe he'll improve, but he's not ready yet.

-Larrytt

[Sports Guy]

This is all true if you believe that he's a .550 OPS hitter. But even your favorite projection system, CHONE, thinks he's more like a .650-.675 hitter. So even if he's a MLB-average glove at SS he's capable of being an asset. Heck, if he lives up to his average projection across all the major systems, he might be as good as, or even better than, Izturis.

You live and die with cherry-picked numbers. You'll get us into a 14-page thread on the basis of a misinterpreted projection (the fan's pitching projection thing) off of Fangraphs, you'll continually highlight Scott Moore's fraction of a single win advantage over Wigginton in one system, but you'll completely ignore all Andino projections when it helps your agenda.

I like how this hasn't been responded to.

[larrytt]

Have you seen him play SS?

If somebody who has seen him play SS has an opinion that he's not very good, I'd welcome it, but for now I don't see anything that says he's a horrible SS.

He simply doesn't have enough games played at the position to tell me that.
Have you seen Carlos Delgado play SS?

If somebody who has seen him play SS has an opinion that he's not very good, I'd welcome it, but for now I don't see anything that says he's a horrible SS.

He simply doesn't have enough games played at the position to tell me that.

-Larrytt :)

[Tony-OH]

I know people are bored, but this lunacy has to stop somewhere. It's getting embarrassing and my IQ took a two point dip because I see one guy who can twist any logic or stat around in an attempt to make the most feable of arguments. Despite some outstanding replies, he's not going to change his mind and honestly, at this point, it's just taking up bandwidth trying.