I'm slow to judge, but Trembley officially lost me tonight

[Frobby]

Watching this moribund team tonight, it is apparent that a change is needed. It feels very much like the O's felt right before Mazzilli and Perlozzo each got the axe. Trembley just sat there stone-faced while Julio Lugo trotted down the 1B line instead of running out a grounder. The same when the O's made no effort to advance a leadoff runner on 2B to 3rd -- twice. Then to top it off, he left DH out there in total disregard of the signs that he had run out of gas.

I've defended DT over and over again, and cautioned against blaming him for the team's lack of talent, untimely hitting or poor pitching. But let me say this as clearly as I can:

The Dave Trembley sitting in the dugout tonight was not the guy who took over from Sam Perlozzo in June 2007. That Dave Trembley had no problem forcing the team to take infield practice on road trips, or calling out players who were late getting to the clubhouse, or doing what he could to get his players to act like winners. This Dave Trembley looks resigned to defeat. And so, even though he can hardly be blamed for everything going on with this team, he needs to go. Soon.

[Sports Guy]

Totally agree...I almost wouldn't be surprised to see him resign.

[Scrat1]

I'm "dropping the hammer" on Trembley.

[VeveJones007]

Whether he's a decent game-manager or not, it's just easier to replace the manager at this point. You get a new coach in here and everything starts off new for the guys. You change the whole perspective. That's not to say that they won't still suck, but it has to at least be tried with a lame-duck manager who clearly isn't going to cut it.

[Skeletor]

The deal with Lugo tonight sealed it for me. He knows he's gone.

[orioles119]

The off-day is coming...

[brianod]

Agree. The blame isn't Trembley's it is McPhails. McPhail made a terrible decision to bring him back. One of a long line of bad decsions. Trembley has been consistently bad. I'm beginning to think, so has McPhail.

[Frobby]

Just saw DT interviewed and he was asked point blank about the play where someone didn't run out a ground ball. DT said he didn't know what play Thorne was talking about, that they players were playing as hard as they could. He also excused the failure to advance the runners by saying they were trying. Sorry Dave, I'm not buying it.

[bluedog]

The deal with Lugo tonight sealed it for me. He knows he's gone.

Even if he knows he's gone, you'd think he'd have the pride to yank Lugo for that kind of lack of effort. But I don't remember ever seeing Trembley hold a veteran player accountable for anything. If that were Pie loafing to 1st, I'm sure Trembley would have been all over him, but not Lugo.

Lugo should be cut and Turner should be handed the job everyday until (if) Roberts comes back. If Roberts does have a career ending injury, we'll need to give Turner an extended audition to see if he's the answer at 2b. No time like the present for that given the O's record. But Trembley will keep putting Lugo's name in the lineup, loafing and all despite Turner's possible upside and the organizational needs. Very frustrating.

[LookitsPuck]

Just saw DT interviewed and he was asked point blank about the play where someone didn't run out a ground ball. DT said he didn't know what play Thorne was talking about, that they players were playing as hard as they could. He also excused the failure to advance the runners by saying they were trying. Sorry Dave, I'm not buying it.

Yeah, I just got finished watching that as well. And I agree 100%.

[Catch 8]

Just saw DT interviewed and he was asked point blank about the play where someone didn't run out a ground ball. DT said he didn't know what play Thorne was talking about, that they players were playing as hard as they could. He also excused the failure to advance the runners by saying they were trying. Sorry Dave, I'm not buying it.

DT comes off as a nice guy. But, when it comes to his job, he is completely feckless.

[JTrea81]

Agree. The blame isn't Trembley's it is McPhails. McPhail made a terrible decision to bring him back. One of a long line of bad decsions. Trembley has been consistently bad. I'm beginning to think, so has McPhail.

Yep. Bringing Trembley back was a horrible decision.

They players needed a breath of fresh air and a new voice and strategy.

Instead they got the same stench of losing...

[baltimorebirds]

unfortunately I'm finally jumping on the fire Trembley bandwagon as well. I didn't want to put all the blame on him and I still think it isn't entirely his fault. My men's slowpitch softball team could out hit this team and we are all out of shape. The team needs to take responsibility but Trembley at the helm has never worked. He tried restoring fundamentals at the beginning but that got old pretty quickly. He has been here for parts of four seasons and has a record of 174-256. What is worse is that his winning percentage (or should I say, the team's winning percentage) has dropped in each season he has been manager -- including the abysmal current .143 winning percentage.

A change needs to be made. I'm wondering: who takes over? Crowley? He should probably be canned as well. Shelby? Samuel? Datz? Probably not, he is a Trembley guy. Dunn? We see how well the bullpen coach taking over has worked. Kranitz? He has done well with our pitchers. Or do we bring someone in from the outside?

On an unrelated note, I truly hope that BJ Surhoff will become hitting coach in the near future

[Frobby]

A change needs to be made. I'm wondering: who takes over? Crowley? He should probably be canned as well. Shelby? Samuel? Datz? Probably not, he is a Trembley guy. Dunn? We see how well the bullpen coach taking over has worked. Kranitz? He has done well with our pitchers. Or do we bring someone in from the outside?

We need an outsider.

[Big Mac]

unfortunately I'm finally jumping on the fire Trembley bandwagon as well. I didn't want to put all the blame on him and I still think it isn't entirely his fault. My men's slowpitch softball team could out hit this team and we are all out of shape. The team needs to take responsibility but Trembley at the helm has never worked. He tried restoring fundamentals at the beginning but that got old pretty quickly. He has been here for parts of four seasons and has a record of 174-256. What is worse is that his winning percentage (or should I say, the team's winning percentage) has dropped in each season he has been manager -- including the abysmal current .143 winning percentage.

A change needs to be made. I'm wondering: who takes over? Crowley? He should probably be canned as well. Shelby? Samuel? Datz? Probably not, he is a Trembley guy. Dunn? We see how well the bullpen coach taking over has worked. Kranitz? He has done well with our pitchers. Or do we bring someone in from the outside?

On an unrelated note, I truly hope that BJ Surhoff will become hitting coach in the near future

We need someone from outside the organization, ASAP.

[Arthur_Bryant]

Totally agree...I almost wouldn't be surprised to see him resign.

He won't resign unless a financial deal is worked out beforehand. Otherwise, quitting would void his contract (releasing Orioles from their obligation).

[dan-O]

Watching this moribund team tonight, it is apparent that a change is needed. It feels very much like the O's felt right before Mazzilli and Perlozzo each got the axe. Trembley just sat there stone-faced while Julio Lugo trotted down the 1B line instead of running out a grounder. The same when the O's made no effort to advance a leadoff runner on 2B to 3rd -- twice. Then to top it off, he left DH out there in total disregard of the signs that he had run out of gas.

I've defended DT over and over again, and cautioned against blaming him for the team's lack of talent, untimely hitting or poor pitching. But let me say this as clearly as I can:

The Dave Trembley sitting in the dugout tonight was not the guy who took over from Sam Perlozzo in June 2007. That Dave Trembley had no problem forcing the team to take infield practice on road trips, or calling out players who were late getting to the clubhouse, or doing what he could to get his players to act like winners. This Dave Trembley looks resigned to defeat. And so, even though he can hardly be blamed for everything going on with this team, he needs to go. Soon.

I am like the biggest DT supporter and I completely agree. It's like he knows he's gone already. I realize that most of the time the blame falls on the players, but if you're not even doing every (small) thing in your power as manager to help the situation - give a bunt sign, for example - then what the hell are you doing?

Frobby, this the was the game for me too. I'm officially ready for a change, and I never thought I'd say that.

[ccbird]

Of course this is going to turn into another DT bashing thread by people who don't understand the game that well but I'll restate what I said in the other thread. Everybody is just waiting for the hammer to drop. The fans, the players, and DT all know it's coming. It's not a matter of if but when at this point. It's been that way for a week now. I've always been a DT supporter and think he is a competent manager who has had a lot of bad players and bad luck during his tenure but it's time to move on. The mental focus and toughness isn't there to do the things this team needs to do to start winning ballgames with any consistency. The sooner the better.

[PBR Street Gang]

Let's face it, Trembley could call Jones an idiot at the top of his lungs like most of us do every time he makes an out swinging at the first pitch or striking out on a pitch outside the strike zone, but I doubt Jones would stop doing "the stupid" even if Joe Torre or Jim Leyland were manager. Who else are we gonna put in center? Nick? Maybe that ain't such a bad idea.

This team ain't gonna hit if we have to count on the likes of Luke Scott(who increasing is reminding me of Jay Gibbons with his incessant pop ups and the goofy "screwing himself into the ground" motion while he tries to find the ball), Reimold (who looks at waaaaaaay too many 3rd strike fastballs right down the middle. I mean WTF? Protect the plate Nolan, hello), and Atkins(who seems to have warning track power at best).

Lugo "not hustling" isn't the problem with this team. It's lack of hitting. Even the stat savants would have to agree with that. Then again they're all avoiding this thread like the plague because discussing a concept like "hustle" to them is like speaking Portuguese to a Bedouin.

[SteveA]

https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/cronkite_1968.html

[crissfan172]

I can't imagine seeing Trembley in the dugout in Baltimore ever again. I think at this point, AM has to be looking at possible replacements. I don't think he has much of a choice at this point.

[RShack]

It will be interesting to see how many people climb on here...

[bluedog]

Of course this is going to turn into another DT bashing thread by people who don't understand the game that well but I'll restate what I said in the other thread. Everybody is just waiting for the hammer to drop. The fans, the players, and DT all know it's coming. It's not a matter of if but when at this point. It's been that way for a week now. I've always been a DT supporter and think he is a competent manager who has had a lot of bad players and bad luck during his tenure but it's time to move on. The mental focus and toughness isn't there to do the things this team needs to do to start winning ballgames with any consistency. The sooner the better.

DT has done nothing during his tenure with the O's to suggest he's even an average manager, much less a competent one. Tonights game (not pulling Hernandez when he was obviously done, not holding Lugo responsible for caring enough to run to first base, making weak excuses for his player in the news conference) are Trembley's entire tenure with the O's in a microcosm.

There is a lot of talent on this team and Trembley simply hasn't been able to find a way to get the players to play to their full potential. Make all the excuses you want about managers not being responsible for how the players play, but there are some managers who are consistently successful wherever they go - so they must have some positive impact on the teams they coach. Trembley isn't that guy.

[24fps]

We need someone from outside the organization, ASAP.

More than one someone IMO. I think a top-to-bottom coaching staff housecleaning would be extraordinarily beneficial. I wish I were confident it would happen...

[Big Mac]

More than one someone IMO. I think a top-to-bottom coaching staff housecleaning would be extraordinarily beneficial. I wish I were confident it would happen...

I pretty much agree although I really like Kranitz. I would keep him.

[bluedog]

I pretty much agree although I really like Kranitz. I would keep him.

Hard to argue with what Kranitz has done thus far this year. Berken and Hernandez both seem to be responding well to his tutelage.

[ccbird]

DT has done nothing during his tenure with the O's to suggest he's even an average manager, much less a competent one. Tonights game (not pulling Hernandez when he was obviously done, not holding Lugo responsible for caring enough to run to first base, making weak excuses for his player in the news conference) are Trembley's entire tenure with the O's in a microcosm.

There is a lot of talent on this team and Trembley simply hasn't been able to find a way to get the players to play to their full potential. Make all the excuses you want about managers not being responsible for how the players play, but there are some managers who are consistently successful wherever they go - so they must have some positive impact on the teams they coach. Trembley isn't that guy.

Your wrong, but it doesn't matter at this point. Not that I've really ever took much time to explain baseball to most DT bashers but I'm certainly not going to do it now. It's over for him, and I'm as ready as anybody else for the next guy.

[24fps]

I pretty much agree although I really like Kranitz. I would keep him.

I could be talked into keeping Kranitz unless Tony LaRussa absolutely insisted on bringing Dave Duncan with him.

:D

[Big Mac]

Hard to argue with what Kranitz has done thus far this year. Berken and Hernandez both seem to be responding well to his tutelage.

And it's not just this year, I would say the majority of our young arms have made tremendous strides over the past couple seasons under Kranitz.

I would be very hesitant to do something that might screw up the overall positive development of our young pitchers.

[JTrea81]

I could be talked into keeping Kranitz unless Tony LaRussa absolutely insisted on bringing Dave Duncan with him.

:D

Yeah, I back up the Brinks truck this offseason for LaRussa. We need a manager that has won titles at the ML level.

We should have gone after him last offseason, but he'll be a FA again after 2010...

[MemorialStadKid]

The Dave Trembley sitting in the dugout tonight was not the guy who took over from Sam Perlozzo in June 2007. That Dave Trembley had no problem forcing the team to take infield practice on road trips, or calling out players who were late getting to the clubhouse, or doing what he could to get his players to act like winners. This Dave Trembley looks resigned to defeat. And so, even though he can hardly be blamed for everything going on with this team, he needs to go. Soon.

What happened to the seemingly tough as nails guy who stood up to Tejada when he refused to take infield practice? Or the guy that said that he wanted to stress the fundamentals?

Was he not ready for the AL East's level of competition or did he not get the staff he was promised and had no idea how to manage in a creative and challenging way?

I am very disappointed because I really liked DT as a manager. There was something paternal and smart about the guy but this malaise or whatever is infecting our team needs to go immediately if we have the slightest hopes of approaching .500 in 2010.

MSK

[brianod]

Your wrong, but it doesn't matter at this point. Not that I've really ever took much time to explain baseball to most DT bashers but I'm certainly not going to do it now. It's over for him, and I'm as ready as anybody else for the next guy.

Let me get this straight. You dismiss others opinions off hand and make the comment that you haven't taken the time to explain baseball to those on this board that need it explained to them. You offer no reasoning to support your opinions. I guess, I'll just accept the fact that you are a baseball expert based on your opinion of yourself and never disagree with you:)

[bluedog]

Your wrong, but it doesn't matter at this point. Not that I've really ever took much time to explain baseball to most DT bashers but I'm certainly not going to do it now. It's over for him, and I'm as ready as anybody else for the next guy.

Explain baseball to me? Excuse me? Conceited much?

As opinionated as I am, I'm the first to admit that my opinion could be wrong and that other people could be right. Clearly you don't have that particular quality.

But when someone who can't even use the word "Your" correctly in a sentence tells me they need to explain baseball to me (and the hundreds, nay thousands of other people who believe Trembley is not a good manager) it sort of undermines their credibility in my book.

Seriously, unless you're secretly a hall of fame baseball executive who gets kicks trolling OH and masquerading as an ill informed megalomaniac, I seriously doubt from your posts you have anything to teach people on OH about baseball.

[RShack]

Of course this is going to turn into another DT bashing thread by people who don't understand the game that well but I'll restate what I said in the other thread. Everybody is just waiting for the hammer to drop. The fans, the players, and DT all know it's coming. It's not a matter of if but when at this point. It's been that way for a week now.
It's been that way for a week, has it? You've known that the players have been just waiting for it to happen, have you? DT's known it too? Well, how clever of you to keep this a personal secret until after Frobby started his fire-DT thread.

Now, in fairness, it's not just you, it's several folks. Frobby starts it, and people come out of the woodwork, talking about DT in the past tense and claiming that he already knows he's gone. This from people who apparently didn't know that themselves until Frobby started this thread... but the minute that happens, they're suddenly sure about it...

The Me-Too Train is now leaving on Track 47.... All aboard!!!

[MrOrange82]

But when someone who can't even use the word "Your" correctly in a sentence tells me they need to explain baseball to me (and the hundreds, nay thousands of other people who believe Trembley is not a good manager) it sort of undermines their credibility in my book.

While he/she might have a handful of voices rattling around in his/her head...

Sorry :)

[bluedog]

While he/she might have a handful of voices rattling around in his/her head...

Sorry :)

No problem. I'd definitely considered multiple personality disorder as a possibility for this person. :P

[Wilshade]

Trembly looked and acted tonight like a uy who knew he was already gone and had given up. Heck, the entire team (make that "most" of the team as Wiggy, the starters, and Berken et al look at least like they take their jobs seriously) has given up.

I am sorry, but the play of this team is completely unacceptable. Would any of us still have jobs if we performed this badly for our employers?

Trembly has to go. An interim manager would be just as bad at this point.

It's put up or shut up time for this organization from top to bottom. We've put up with losing, increasing ticket prices, concessions and parking as well as that ludicrous policy of charging more for walkup sales for a product that isnt selling in the first place.

It is time to win . . . . and I dont give a damn who gets the credit.

[ChaosLex]

Love Dave, but his firing/resignation can't come soon enough.

[Moose Milligan]

Agree with Frobby's opening post as well as the follow up about needing someone from outside the organization.

It's time.

[tvz1997]

What happened to the seemingly tough as nails guy who stood up to Tejada when he refused to take infield practice? Or the guy that said that he wanted to stress the fundamentals?

Was he not ready for the AL East's level of competition or did he not get the staff he was promised and had no idea how to manage in a creative and challenging way?

I am very disappointed because I really liked DT as a manager. There was something paternal and smart about the guy but this malaise or whatever is infecting our team needs to go immediately if we have the slightest hopes of approaching .500 in 2010.

MSK

This.

My opinion of DT has changed ever since I heard an interview with him on the Viviano show last week. Basically, Viv asked him about whether or not the team needed a sense of urgency, and Dave said no. He explained that he didn't want the players to press and that it wasn't time for that. Viv tried to save him by saying that he thought Dave meant was that it wasn't time for panic, but that urgency was necessary. After a couple of seconds of dead air, Dave agreed and said that they need to play good baseball every day.

It is hard to convey what I heard, but he just sounded like a guy that was punch-drunk. It was like his corner man asked him if he shouldn't try to do a better job of keeping his left up and it took him a second to agree, because in the midst of all of those shots to the face, he forgot what his left was for.

I have always liked Dave and will root for him wherever he goes, but he is lost in the wilderness right now. If this were a different team -- if the veterans were the no-nonsense self-policing sort of the old days -- maybe things would be different. But he is a dead man walking now and his team is playing like they are whistling past the graveyard.

[SoBo]

Whenever DT is let go a total house cleaning of staff is needed. No more promotion from within for a guy that paid his dues. No more saddling a new manager with guys from the previous staff. I really like what Kranitz has done, but the new guy should be able to bring in his own staff and allow him to sink or swim with his guys.

[LA2]

Trembly looked and acted tonight like a uy who knew he was already gone and had given up. Heck, the entire team (make that "most" of the team as Wiggy, the starters, and Berken et al look at least like they take their jobs seriously) has given up.

The pitching staff is half the team and hasn't given up. Reimold playing his hardest on a still-healing achilles tendon, Izturis holding together the middle defense and battling in every at-bat, Miggy not wanting to come out of the game after an injury and itching to rejoin the lineup as soon as humanly possible, Markakis hitting over .300 over the last week after a slow start during which he nonetheless was constantly on base via patiently-achieved walks, B-Rob and Pie, the two main sparks in our lineup, felled by injuries, Wieters playing everyday and handling the development of his young pitchers superbly--seems like there are a lot of players you're misreading there.

I'm skeptical of the basis of your and many other posters' face-reading. If you know Trembley and talked with him, maybe I'd put some value in your deciphering of his facial expressions.


An interim manager would be just as bad at this point.

This is a reason to hire a new manager?


It's put up or shut up time for this organization from top to bottom. We've put up with losing, increasing ticket prices, concessions and parking as well as that ludicrous policy of charging more for walkup sales for a product that isnt selling in the first place.

Trembley's to blame for all this as well? Jeez, I didn't know--yeah, that really makes me question whether he shd continue as manager. :rolleyes:


It is time to win . . . . and I dont give a damn who gets the credit.

Has anyone made an issue of who gets "credit?" Has Trembley demanded that he be praised for the pitching of Millwood, Matusz, Hernandez, and Guthrie, for Wigginton's surge? Conversely, is he to blame for the gutting of his lineup by injuries?

I have disagreed with some of Trembley's in-game decisions, but he learns from his mistakes and is constantly adjusting in an effort to maximize the team's chances at winning. Jones' inability to lay off outside sliders--to give just one clear example--is a bigger problem than Dave Trembley's supposed defeatist attitude (!). Let's try to fix real and obvious issues rather than search for a scapegoat.

[NewMarketSean]

Just saw DT interviewed and he was asked point blank about the play where someone didn't run out a ground ball. DT said he didn't know what play Thorne was talking about, that they players were playing as hard as they could. He also excused the failure to advance the runners by saying they were trying. Sorry Dave, I'm not buying it.

I wonder if he would have remembered had it been Pie who failed to run out the ground ball.

[DrungoHazewood]

Watching this moribund team tonight, it is apparent that a change is needed. It feels very much like the O's felt right before Mazzilli and Perlozzo each got the axe. Trembley just sat there stone-faced while Julio Lugo trotted down the 1B line instead of running out a grounder. The same when the O's made no effort to advance a leadoff runner on 2B to 3rd -- twice. Then to top it off, he left DH out there in total disregard of the signs that he had run out of gas.

I've defended DT over and over again, and cautioned against blaming him for the team's lack of talent, untimely hitting or poor pitching. But let me say this as clearly as I can:

The Dave Trembley sitting in the dugout tonight was not the guy who took over from Sam Perlozzo in June 2007. That Dave Trembley had no problem forcing the team to take infield practice on road trips, or calling out players who were late getting to the clubhouse, or doing what he could to get his players to act like winners. This Dave Trembley looks resigned to defeat. And so, even though he can hardly be blamed for everything going on with this team, he needs to go. Soon.

Isn't it kind of rule that if Frobby says it, it has to be? Sorry Dave.

I just hope they don't go for a random interim manager. Find a guy you really want to take over, give him the job and maybe a couple year contract, and wide latitude to do what needs to be done.

[wickedwitch]

What happened to the seemingly tough as nails guy who stood up to Tejada when he refused to take infield practice? Or the guy that said that he wanted to stress the fundamentals?

Was he not ready for the AL East's level of competition or did he not get the staff he was promised and had no idea how to manage in a creative and challenging way?

I am very disappointed because I really liked DT as a manager. There was something paternal and smart about the guy but this malaise or whatever is infecting our team needs to go immediately if we have the slightest hopes of approaching .500 in 2010. ITA.

I consider myself a huge DT supporter, but something needs to be done.

Hopefully Crowley goes with him.

[ChaosLex]

I wonder if he would have remembered had it been Pie who failed to run out the ground ball.

Good point. DT wouldn't dare hold someone with "veteran presence" accountable though. :rolleyes:

[LookinUp]

I have disagreed with some of Trembley's in-game decisions, but he learns from his mistakes and is constantly adjusting in an effort to maximize the team's chances at winning. Jones' inability to lay off outside sliders--to give just one clear example--is a bigger problem than Dave Trembley's supposed defeatist attitude (!). Let's try to fix real and obvious issues rather than search for a scapegoat.

He's learning and constantly adjusting? That's not evident, but no matter.

The Jones line is about all the reason I need to want both a new manager and a new hitting coach.

I actually did favor giving the guy until mid-summer and I still wouldn't be totally opposed, but if this team really has given up on him and given up on the game (as appears possible), then the change just has to be made.

[clapdiddy]

Agree with Frobby's assessment and was thinking the same thing when Lugo strolled down to first base. No one in the dugout said anything to him when he came back. He did hustle down the line later in the game, though. Maybe a player said something to him.

This team still continues to not do the little things as well. With the lack of talent on this team, they NEED to do those things well.

I would not be surprised to see Trembley gone by the time they return from the road trip.

[DrungoHazewood]

Love Dave, but his firing/resignation can't come soon enough.


Agree with Frobby's opening post as well as the follow up about needing someone from outside the organization.

It's time.

Yea. All that.

I really think they need to follow (a part of) the 1980s Steinbrenner model. Obviously not the wacko firing and hiring of Billy Martin every six months, but the willingness to inject a spark by hiring the anti-manager. Big Stein would fire Martin, who was an obsessive, controlling, out-of-control jerk, and replace him with somebody like Dick Howser, who was kind of like your nice uncle Fred who gives kids lollypops. The Yanks would win, but when the nice guy routine got old and the millionaires started ruling the clubhouse he'd dump the manager and hire Martin, or some other drill sargent.

This is an oversimplification, but the O's need the anti-Trembley now.

What's that? I guess it's an experienced major league manager who has no problem taking guys to task in a public, open way, and someone who just doesn't care about "playing the game right" when it might conflict with winning.

I'm not sure who that is, but that's my recommendation.

[UMDTerrapins]

I love Trembley, but it's not happening.

[nadecir]

The Orioles will not play .133 baseball for the rest of the season, so the team will improve whether or not Trembley is replaced.

It's easy to lay the team's poor play on the manager. Blaming one person is the simple thing to do.

If you look at the stats, it's evident that we overrated our potential for this year, and we certainly haven't played up to whatever the limited potential is. Our pitching staff is tied for next to worst in the AL with an ERA+ of 92. We are last in the league in hitting, with in OPS+ of 78. Given these two stats, where do think this team should be in the standings?

In truth, there's enough blame to go around throughout the Orioles organization without laying it all on Trembley. There's been many a good baseball person that has failed in one way or another with the Orioles over the last 13 years - respected baseball people like Ray Miller, Mike Hargrove, and Leo Mazzone.

If Trembley is replaced, the Orioles record will improve. If Trembley is not replaced, the Orioles record will improve too. But we need to step back and look at the situation. We are further away from competing then we thought before the season.

We are emulating the Rays model at this point. Unfortunately, we are not at the stage of the 2008 Rays yet, but probably more like the 2001 or 2002 version. There is no easy fix. The team will play better, but a new manager is not going to make us a contender.

[Ohfan67]

It will be interesting to see how many people climb on here...

It will be interesting to see if you ever critique poor play by the Orioles, a move by the front office, etc.

[Three Run Homer]

I hope AM is on the phone with Bobby Valentine or Davey Johnson.

How can you leave a pitcher in after he gives up a gapper to a second string catcher who's gone 2 for 24 for the season so far? If the answer is "I didn't have guys warmed up" then why didn't you have guys warmed up if your starter is going into the 7th having thrown over 90 pitches?

[Frobby]

Let's face it, Trembley could call Jones an idiot at the top of his lungs like most of us do every time he makes an out swinging at the first pitch or striking out on a pitch outside the strike zone, but I doubt Jones would stop doing "the stupid" even if Joe Torre or Jim Leyland were manager. Who else are we gonna put in center? Nick? Maybe that ain't such a bad idea.

This team ain't gonna hit if we have to count on the likes of Luke Scott(who increasing is reminding me of Jay Gibbons with his incessant pop ups and the goofy "screwing himself into the ground" motion while he tries to find the ball), Reimold (who looks at waaaaaaay too many 3rd strike fastballs right down the middle. I mean WTF? Protect the plate Nolan, hello), and Atkins(who seems to have warning track power at best).

Lugo "not hustling" isn't the problem with this team. It's lack of hitting. Even the stat savants would have to agree with that. Then again they're all avoiding this thread like the plague because discussing a concept like "hustle" to them is like speaking Portuguese to a Bedouin.

There is no question that the team's hitting slump is blowing everything else out of proportion. I get that. But what bothers me is, at a time when the clutch hits and 3-run homers simply aren't coming, we aren't doing what we can to manufacture a run here and there. By which I mean, moving runners over, sacrifice bunting (or bunting for a hit), attemoting a stolen base -- anything to put a little pressure on the opponent. Would it work? I have no idea. But I know what's not working, and I'd like to see the team show it's committed to trying something different.

By the way, how did our game-winning rally start on Sunday? With a surprise bunt hit by Tejada. There's a guy who almost never bunts, and he did something to shake things up. And he woke up the team. That's what I want to see. I'm tired of seeing the O's sit around waiting for an inning where they string together a bunch of hits.

[Old#5fan]

Totally agree...I almost wouldn't be surprised to see him resign.

I thought the same thing watching him last night. He shows zero emotion almost as if he wants to get fired.

[Frobby]

This is an oversimplification, but the O's need the anti-Trembley now.

What's that? I guess it's an experienced major league manager who has no problem taking guys to task in a public, open way, and someone who just doesn't care about "playing the game right" when it might conflict with winning.

I agree with everything else you say in this post, but I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded part. To me, part of our problem is we don't play the game right.

[DrungoHazewood]

The Orioles will not play .133 baseball for the rest of the season, so the team will improve whether or not Trembley is replaced.

It's easy to lay the team's poor play on the manager. Blaming one person is the simple thing to do.

If you look at the stats, it's evident that we overrated our potential for this year, and we certainly haven't played up to whatever the limited potential is. Our pitching staff is tied for next to worst in the AL with an ERA+ of 92. We are last in the league in hitting, with in OPS+ of 78. Given these two stats, where do think this team should be in the standings?

In truth, there's enough blame to go around throughout the Orioles organization without laying it all on Trembley. There's been many a good baseball person that has failed in one way or another with the Orioles over the last 13 years - respected baseball people like Ray Miller, Mike Hargrove, and Leo Mazzone.

If Trembley is replaced, the Orioles record will improve. If Trembley is not replaced, the Orioles record will improve too. But we need to step back and look at the situation. We are further away from competing then we thought before the season.

We are emulating the Rays model at this point. Unfortunately, we are not at the stage of the 2008 Rays yet, but probably more like the 2001 or 2002 version. There is no easy fix. The team will play better, but a new manager is not going to make us a contender.

Much of the new manager effect, which is often credited to new strategy or or new clubhouse atmosphere or whatever, is just regression to the mean.

But that doesn't mean the manager should keep his job through extended horrible stretches.


There is no question that the team's hitting slump is blowing everything else out of proportion. I get that. But what bothers me is, at a time when the clutch hits and 3-run homers simply aren't coming, we aren't doing what we can to manufacture a run here and there. By which I mean, moving runners over, sacrifice bunting (or bunting for a hit), attemoting a stolen base -- anything to put a little pressure on the opponent. Would it work? I have no idea. But I know what's not working, and I'd like to see the team show it's committed to trying something different.

By the way, how did our game-winning rally start on Sunday? With a surprise bunt hit by Tejada. There's a guy who almost never bunts, and he did something to shake things up. And he woke up the team. That's what I want to see. I'm tired of seeing the O's sit around waiting for an inning where they string together a bunch of hits.

I know that the logic behind strategic moves sometimes has to take a back seat to human emotion and needs. Maybe this is one of those cases. But a team that emphasizes one-run strategies is usually team that'll only get one run at a time. On the whole, doing what you suggest will lower the number of runs the O's score.

Maybe that's ok, if the corresponding attitude change nets a better performance overall.

[RHall31]

He's the same Trembley he always was. The overall lack of hitting just exposes all the problems with how this team plays the game and how he
manages this team.

[DrungoHazewood]

I agree with everything else you say in this post, but I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded part. To me, part of our problem is we don't play the game right.

Dave Trembley seems to be the kind of guy who won't save the pen in a 30-3 loss by using Chad Moeller to pitch the last two innings, because that's not respecting the game. He's the kind of guy who probably wouldn't have ended up with Lenn Sakata catching (and subsequently hitting the game winning homer), because that's not playing the game right. He wouldn't play Jon Knott in left because his defense was below average, but he was fine with Jay Payton because everyone strikes out but Major Leaguers aren't supposed to look lost in the field.

That's the kind of thing I meant. Dave is a conventional manager, one who seems like he'd rather be at a disadvantage while managing conventionally, than take a chance on winning while also increasing his odds of being embarrassed.

The problem in selecting a new manager is that most people are just like Dave.

[Frobby]

I know that the logic behind strategic moves sometimes has to take a back seat to human emotion and needs. Maybe this is one of those cases. But a team that emphasizes one-run strategies is usually team that'll only get one run at a time. On the whole, doing what you suggest will lower the number of runs the O's score.

Maybe that's ok, if the corresponding attitude change nets a better performance overall.

I'm only talking short term here, Drungo. If the O's were hitting .250 in RISP situations I wouldn't be advocating this. Also, scoring one run at a time isn't so bad when you are losing 2-1 and you can sense that the pitchers are in control of the game.

[Mad Mark]

I hope AM is on the phone with Bobby Valentine or Davey Johnson.

I'm sure the Nationals won't consider that to be bad form or anything...

[Frobby]

Dave Trembley seems to be the kind of guy who won't save the pen in a 30-3 loss by using Chad Moeller to pitch the last two innings, because that's not respecting the game. He's the kind of guy who probably wouldn't have ended up with Lenn Sakata catching (and subsequently hitting the game winning homer), because that's not playing the game right. He wouldn't play Jon Knott in left because his defense was below average, but he was fine with Jay Payton because everyone strikes out but Major Leaguers aren't supposed to look lost in the field.

That's the kind of thing I meant. Dave is a conventional manager, one who seems like he'd rather be at a disadvantage while managing conventionally, than take a chance on winning while also increasing his odds of being embarrassed.

OK, I get that. I'm not sure I agree with the Jon Knott example, but I get your drift.

[DuffMan]

Yea. All that.

I really think they need to follow (a part of) the 1980s Steinbrenner model. Obviously not the wacko firing and hiring of Billy Martin every six months, but the willingness to inject a spark by hiring the anti-manager. Big Stein would fire Martin, who was an obsessive, controlling, out-of-control jerk, and replace him with somebody like Dick Howser, who was kind of like your nice uncle Fred who gives kids lollypops. The Yanks would win, but when the nice guy routine got old and the millionaires started ruling the clubhouse he'd dump the manager and hire Martin, or some other drill sargent.

This is an oversimplification, but the O's need the anti-Trembley now.

What's that? I guess it's an experienced major league manager who has no problem taking guys to task in a public, open way, and someone who just doesn't care about "playing the game right" when it might conflict with winning.

I'm not sure who that is, but that's my recommendation.

Sounds alot like Lou Pinella to me.

[section18]

Commenting in a similar way on this post is not a change of position for me. I caused a stir for a few days at the end of the season last October when I said AM should make an appearance and do a Q & A with season ticket holders to explain bringing DT back after finishing 39 games out of first. It still seems hard to believe an Oriole team finished 39 games out.

On a post last season I asked for followers to discuss the number of games DT had won based on his in-game strategy. Very few responded. We only discuss things similar to what happened in last nights game. We continue to dwell on a player not running to first or our failure to move runners up to get them in scoring postion. If you look at tapes of previous games or went to a lot of games at OP you would see the same things almost every game and I'm not exaggerating.

DT sometimes is pretty quick with his answers and sometimes he appears slow for some unknown reason. Most of us know he needs to be replaced. The losing has to stop. This team is not as bad as it looks right now. If Leyland or LaRussa were the manager of this team I think we would have at least 7 wins by now and 7-8 would look a lot better than 2-13 which is embarrassing. The injuries have not helped things and it's disappointing to everyone. Someone mentioned our trainers on another post and maybe we need to take a look at things. Why are all of these players getting hurt running or throwing? Too much weight lifting or not enough?

DT does not want to face the Red Sox and Yankees 12 straight games and it appears he is hoping to be replaced. Spare him AM. Make the change tonight and announce the replacement on our off day Thursday. If you bring in someone and don't replace Crowley you are wasting your time. We have 147 games to play in the 2010 season. Our failure to bring in runners from scoring position continues to be embarrassing. Valentine, Melvin, Garner, Komminsk, whoever it is, would probably explode after 4 or 5 games if this continued under their watch.

The Orioles will probably keep all of the coaches if DT is replaced because it's what they've always done in the past. It's wrong and hopefully AM realizes this and cleans house.

[murrayfan420]

Yep. Bringing Trembley back was a horrible decision.

They players needed a breath of fresh air and a new voice and strategy.

Instead they got the same stench of losing...

You catch a lot of flack on here (deservedly so for a lot of it) but this was one thing you had pegged in the offseason. Even if we all thought Trembley was a decent manager, I don't think many people thought he would be the one in the dugout when(if) we were contending for the playoffs. So why renew his contract?

[DrungoHazewood]

I'm only talking short term here, Drungo. If the O's were hitting .250 in RISP situations I wouldn't be advocating this. Also, scoring one run at a time isn't so bad when you are losing 2-1 and you can sense that the pitchers are in control of the game.

Like I said, if this helps the confidence of the team maybe it's a good thing. But if you bunt a guy over to scoring position and the team's hitting .084 with RISP is that really gonna work? :)

[JourneyFan]

This is an oversimplification, but the O's need the anti-Trembley now.

What's that? I guess it's an experienced major league manager who has no problem taking guys to task in a public, open way, and someone who just doesn't care about "playing the game right" when it might conflict with winning.

I'm not sure who that is, but that's my recommendation.

While I know he'd never come back, nor would I want him to, I'm fairly confident that Mike Hargrove would never have put up with a lot of the stuff we've seen from the club since last August.

[Old#5fan]

There is no question that the team's hitting slump is blowing everything else out of proportion. I get that. But what bothers me is, at a time when the clutch hits and 3-run homers simply aren't coming, we aren't doing what we can to manufacture a run here and there. By which I mean, moving runners over, sacrifice bunting (or bunting for a hit), attemoting a stolen base -- anything to put a little pressure on the opponent. Would it work? I have no idea. But I know what's not working, and I'd like to see the team show it's committed to trying something different.

By the way, how did our game-winning rally start on Sunday? With a surprise bunt hit by Tejada. There's a guy who almost never bunts, and he did something to shake things up. And he woke up the team. That's what I want to see. I'm tired of seeing the O's sit around waiting for an inning where they string together a bunch of hits.

Probably many posters here don't recall Johnny Oates when he managed the Orioles but he used to bunt guys over when the team was in a run scoring drought. The reason I state this is I have already had a poster try to chastise me for suggesting DT should have had NM do that yesterday by claiming that Earl Weaver thought that strategy was stupid.

That may be so, but Earl didn't have many teams that were this pathetic in scoring runs, but Oates did, and you have to tailor your strategy to the team and how it is performing at the time.

[nadecir]

Like I said, if this helps the confidence of the team maybe it's a good thing. But if you bunt a guy over to scoring position and the team's hitting .084 with RISP is that really gonna work? :)There you go. You've hit on the innovative in-game strategy that will turn the season around. In future games, unless an Orioles player hits a home run, he should stop at first base on any hit. That way there are no runners in scoring position, and our poor hitting with RISP doesn't come in to play. I nominate Drungo for the new manager! ;)

[Old#5fan]

I'm only talking short term here, Drungo. If the O's were hitting .250 in RISP situations I wouldn't be advocating this. Also, scoring one run at a time isn't so bad when you are losing 2-1 and you can sense that the pitchers are in control of the game.

Right, every game and team strategy is different and you have to tailor it to what is necessary to win that particular game. DT doesn't do well in that aspect of managing at all.

[WiredinBmore]

Yeah, I just got finished watching that as well. And I agree 100%.

The expression on Palmer's face when it came back to the booth was priceless.

[Old#5fan]

Like I said, if this helps the confidence of the team maybe it's a good thing. But if you bunt a guy over to scoring position and the team's hitting .084 with RISP is that really gonna work? :)

Possibility of a sac fly, error, WP or PB. None of which have anything to do with hitting with RISP, but could generate the all important and precious run that we are not getting in far too many tight games.

[Old#5fan]

While I know he'd never come back, nor would I want him to, I'm fairly confident that Mike Hargrove would never have put up with a lot of the stuff we've seen from the club since last August.

Not so sure, his Orioles team one season quit on him and went 4-32 after hitting 500 in August. :eek:

[Frobby]

Probably many posters here don't recall Johnny Oates when he managed the Orioles but he used to bunt guys over when the team was in a run scoring drought. The reason I state this is I have already had a poster try to chastise me for suggesting DT should have had NM do that yesterday by claiming that Earl Weaver thought that strategy was stupid.

That may be so, but Earl didn't have many teams that were this pathetic in scoring runs, but Oates did, and you have to tailor your strategy to the team and how it is performing at the time.

Weaver's '72 team was pretty pathetic at scoring runs -- .229/.302/.339, 3.37 runs scored per game. Fortunately, they were amazing at preventing runs -- 2.79 runs allowed per game (yes, you read that right, and that includes unearned runs). That team had a very poor record in one-run games (26-32) so this supports your thought that Weaver's philosophy wasn't really adaptable for a team that can't hit much and has very little power (only Boog Powell had more than 8 home runs that year).

[SilentJames]

Weaver's '72 team was pretty pathetic at scoring runs -- .229/.302/.339, 3.37 runs scored per game. Fortunately, they were amazing at preventing runs -- 2.79 runs allowed per game (yes, you read that right, and that includes unearned runs). That team had a very poor record in one-run games (26-32) so this supports your thought that Weaver's philosophy wasn't really adaptable for a team that can't hit much and has very little power (only Boog Powell had more than 8 home runs that year).

that is amazing.

I have been the biggest DT supporter here, but 13 losses, even if the root problems aren't his fault something has to change now. Lugo needed to be sat for a week for that display.

[brooksie05]

We are emulating the Rays model at this point. Unfortunately, we are not at the stage of the 2008 Rays yet, but probably more like the 2001 or 2002 version. There is no easy fix. The team will play better, but a new manager is not going to make us a contender.

We are TRYING to emulate the Rays model now. We are more like the 2003 Tigers now and less the 2008 Rays. I just want a manager who will hold his player's accountable. You don't run out a ball (B-Rob 2009, Lugo 2010), you don't play.

[Sanfran327]

Why can't we just pull the MLB equivalent of a mulligan and fire Trembley, cut Atkins and Lugo, and just refuse to cary any more dead weight? Other organizations do not tolerate this level of productivity. In most other places, if you can't produce, you'll be replaced by someone who can.

[Bradysburns]

unfortunately I'm finally jumping on the fire Trembley bandwagon as well. I didn't want to put all the blame on him and I still think it isn't entirely his fault. My men's slowpitch softball team could out hit this team and we are all out of shape. The team needs to take responsibility but Trembley at the helm has never worked. He tried restoring fundamentals at the beginning but that got old pretty quickly. He has been here for parts of four seasons and has a record of 174-256. What is worse is that his winning percentage (or should I say, the team's winning percentage) has dropped in each season he has been manager -- including the abysmal current .143 winning percentage.

A change needs to be made. I'm wondering: who takes over? Crowley? He should probably be canned as well. Shelby? Samuel? Datz? Probably not, he is a Trembley guy. Dunn? We see how well the bullpen coach taking over has worked. Kranitz? He has done well with our pitchers. Or do we bring someone in from the outside?

On an unrelated note, I truly hope that BJ Surhoff will become hitting coach in the near future

I LOVE the BJ suggestion... He's the perfect kind of guy to have in the clubhouse... Nobody held himself more accountable than BJ...

[glorydays]

Basically, Trembley is here because of his ability to work with and help our younger players progress towards reaching their full potential. When I have been able to watch games this year... it has only been through the opponents feed, so I don't get the close up shots of DT that you all may get.

My biggest concern now... and I admit this is something that should have been a concern in the past - is that his inability during the game to council (it doesn't even need to be a good chewwing out) vet players who don't run out balls or make just silly baserunning/fielding/pitching errors will begin to have a long term negative impact on player developement of our younger players.

If he is failing to even react to these problems during game play... I agree that its time for DT to go - for the good of our young players.

[Nigel Tufnel]

What happened to the seemingly tough as nails guy who stood up to Tejada when he refused to take infield practice? Or the guy that said that he wanted to stress the fundamentals?

Was he not ready for the AL East's level of competition or did he not get the staff he was promised and had no idea how to manage in a creative and challenging way?

I am very disappointed because I really liked DT as a manager. There was something paternal and smart about the guy but this malaise or whatever is infecting our team needs to go immediately if we have the slightest hopes of approaching .500 in 2010.

MSK

I think he may have just found out how hard it was to get the players to listen to him. As a guy who had never played professional baseball and who worked on a series of 1-year contracts, it must have been hard for him to get the players' respect. He could call out Tejada that first year, because he didn't know any better, and because Miggi had completely fallen into disfavor with the organization. And he could call out Pie, because he was the 25th man. But he probably worried that if he tried that with anybody who was popular, he'd lose the clubhouse.

I think Dave decided to instead go with plan B, which was to try to be everybody's friend, and hope they would listen because they liked him. That rarely works.

It's a shame, because I think most people like DT as a person and want him to succeed, but, yeah, it's time for a change.

[tennOsfan]

I believe I'm done with Trembley also. I am sick of watching Oriole hitters run half-heartedly to first base. They've done this for years, and it is indicative of the culture of losing and failure that accompanies this team.

Show effort on the little things, and then you might convince me you care about the big ones.

I remember Jimmy Rollins getting publicly fined not long ago for not running out a grounder. Imagine, the NL MVP getting fined by his manager! Rollins manned up and admitted he was wrong. I bet our players would admit the same if we had a manager, and system, that demanded 100% effort. Either play hard or you don't play.

When an infielder knows that the batter is going to be running all-out to first, a throw might be rushed, a ball might be muffed, all because they know they have a limited time to make their play. When they know Roberts, Lugo or whomever else (fill in the blank) will be trotting his way down, they know they have plenty of time and can be as careful as necessary. You cannot tell me that effort and good/bad breaks don't have some correlation that can contribute to your win/loss record.

I for one am sick of following a team that doesn't care enough to run out grounders. Get a manager in here who demands effort, all the time, out of everyone.

[Neusbaum]

With an off day tomorrow I predict Dave Trembley's flight goes to Baltimore and not to Boston...New Manager hired by Tuesday.

Lets just hope its Dave Martinez from Tampa Bay

[AlbNYfan]

Basically, Trembley is here because of his ability to work with and help our younger players progress towards reaching their full potential. When I have been able to watch games this year... it has only been through the opponents feed, so I don't get the close up shots of DT that you all may get.

My biggest concern now... and I admit this is something that should have been a concern in the past - is that his inability during the game to council (it doesn't even need to be a good chewwing out) vet players who don't run out balls or make just silly baserunning/fielding/pitching errors will begin to have a long term negative impact on player developement of our younger players.

If he is failing to even react to these problems during game play... I agree that its time for DT to go - for the good of our young players.

DT may have been the correct guy a couple of years ago and maybe last year with a low key approach, let the kids play and develop, patient with young pitchers, etc.
It is unfair for anyone, including MacPhail, to expect DT to turn a switch and suddenly be a hard ass manager.
It is time to get a new voice in the dugout. It may not do much, but the time is now. I expect tonight is DT's last night. I think AM has had someone in the wings for a while.

[Tony-OH]

One thing to consider here, would it be fair to any new manager or even an interim manager to start off facing the Yankees and Red Sox for 12 straight games with this team?

Everyone knows I've been a big supporter of Dave, but I certainly understand there comes a time when change is necessary. I didn't see the game last night but I do find the Lugo situation last night to be disturbing, especially considering his response to Thirne when questioned about the situation.

Dave might just be shell-shocked at this point. No one could have predicted a complete melt down by the offense led by the loss of their leadoff man Roberts and followed up by a cold spell by almost every single hitter. No one could have predicted their closer would be terrible then hurt, and a guy who was counted on to be a staple in their bullpen (Koji) would be out all year so far (ok, maybe we could have guessed 'ol Softi-san would miss some time). No one would have guessed that Bergesen was not going to be anywhere near where he was last year (shoulder?) or that Tillman's command would digress.

All of those things have conspired to doom the Orioles this year and ultimately will probably doom Trembley and possibly his staff. I agree with Drungo that Trembley is a pretty conventional manager and to me, he's done a pretty good job with some pretty dismal talent over the last few years. However, no organization can accept losing at this pace, especially when the home crowds have been dismal and now the core fans, such as ones on here are reaching their breaking points.

Trembley might be relieved of his duties soon, and it might even be the right thing to do under the old "change for change sake is good," but if he is let go, it will not be becuase he didn't care or that he didn't prepare as best as he could.

In the end something will probably happen because the natives are demanding a sacrifice and Trembley in the sacrificial lamb position of being a manager on the last year of his contract on the worse team in baseball right now.

[Jagwar]

It seems to me like the team needs a jolt, and it is easier to change one person than the entire roster. Unfortunately, that implies that the manager needs to go.

Oh, if the team isn't hitting, shouldn't Crowley be worried about his phone ringing too?

[DrungoHazewood]

I think Dave decided to instead go with plan B, which was to try to be everybody's friend, and hope they would listen because they liked him. That rarely works.

Actually, I think being a good guy who trusts his players to do the right thing works quite often. Lots of Hall of Fame managers were definitely not out of the John McGraw, Earl Weaver, Billy Martin, Dick Williams mold.

It just doesn't work in all places at all times.

[SoBo]

DT seemed like the kind of guy we're looking for right now when he took over the team, taking infield practice, calling out miggi for lack of hustle, etc... What happened to that guy? He makes Ray Miller look like Ozzie Guillen in the dugout. Teams typically take on the mentality of their skipper and it's clear this team has done just that. I don't know who the right manager is for this team. But it's clear DT is not the right guy today.

[Dwight Schrute]

It's been that way for a week, has it? You've known that the players have been just waiting for it to happen, have you? DT's known it too? Well, how clever of you to keep this a personal secret until after Frobby started his fire-DT thread.

Now, in fairness, it's not just you, it's several folks. Frobby starts it, and people come out of the woodwork, talking about DT in the past tense and claiming that he already knows he's gone. This from people who apparently didn't know that themselves until Frobby started this thread... but the minute that happens, they're suddenly sure about it...

The Me-Too Train is now leaving on Track 47.... All aboard!!!

What is YOUR opinion?

[DrungoHazewood]

I think AM has had someone in the wings for a while.

It would be out of character for MacPhail to not have a list in his back pocket. He's probably talked to several candidates already. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who'd fire Trembley today and stick Kranitz or Crowley in the job for three weeks while he scuffles around for a replacement.

[NewMarketSean]

It's been that way for a week, has it? You've known that the players have been just waiting for it to happen, have you? DT's known it too? Well, how clever of you to keep this a personal secret until after Frobby started his fire-DT thread.

Now, in fairness, it's not just you, it's several folks. Frobby starts it, and people come out of the woodwork, talking about DT in the past tense and claiming that he already knows he's gone. This from people who apparently didn't know that themselves until Frobby started this thread... but the minute that happens, they're suddenly sure about it...

The Me-Too Train is now leaving on Track 47.... All aboard!!!

Nope. Wrong. People have been critical of DT since the offseason when MacPhail decided to bring him back. Once the team started 1-9, people have been calling for him to be fired.

Now Frobby coming out and saying the same makes it OK somehow.

Thing is, everyone who was speaking their opinion a week ago saying DT should be fired were getting criticized for it.

[Frobby]

One thing to consider here, would it be fair to any new manager or even an interim manager to start off facing the Yankees and Red Sox for 12 straight games with this team?

Everyone knows I've been a big supporter of Dave, but I certainly understand there comes a time when change is necessary. I didn't see the game last night but I do find the Lugo situation last night to be disturbing, especially considering his response to Thirne when questioned about the situation.

Dave might just be shell-shocked at this point. No one could have predicted a complete melt down by the offense led by the loss of their leadoff man Roberts and followed up by a cold spell by almost every single hitter. No one could have predicted their closer would be terrible then hurt, and a guy who was counted on to be a staple in their bullpen (Koji) would be out all year so far (ok, maybe we could have guessed 'ol Softi-san would miss some time). No one would have guessed that Bergesen was not going to be anywhere near where he was last year (shoulder?) or that Tillman's command would digress.

All of those things have conspired to doom the Orioles this year and ultimately will probably doom Trembley and possibly his staff. I agree with Drungo that Trembley is a pretty conventional manager and to me, he's done a pretty good job with some pretty dismal talent over the last few years. However, no organization can accept losing at this pace, especially when the home crowds have been dismal and now the core fans, such as ones on here are reaching their breaking points.

Trembley might be relieved of his duties soon, and it might even be the right thing to do under the old "change for change sake is good," but if he is let go, it will not be becuase he didn't care or that he didn't prepare as best as he could.

In the end something will probably happen because the natives are demanding a sacrifice and Trembley in the sacrificial lamb position of being a manager on the last year of his contract on the worse team in baseball right now.

I agree that sending in a new manager to face NY and Boston is a pretty tough thing to do. At the same time, the way we have rolled over against those two teams in the recent past, I'd rather have the new guy run that gauntlet than have DT guide us through another 1-11 or 2-10 stretch.

I do think Trembley has given us 100% and is well prepared. I really rooted hard for him to succeed. But I think this is more than just calling for a sacrificial lamb -- I think he has lost his edge. Three years of losing has beaten him down and he has become too accepting of it.

[NewMarketSean]

I agree that sending in a new manager to face NY and Boston is a pretty tough thing to do. At the same time, the way we have rolled over against those two teams in the recent past, I'd rather have the new guy run that gauntlet than have DT guide us through another 1-11 or 2-10 stretch.

I do think Trembley has given us 100% and is well prepared. I really rooted hard for him to succeed. But I think this is more than just calling for a sacrificial lamb -- I think he has lost his edge. Three years of losing has beaten him down and he has become too accepting of it.

Also, Boston is slumping. Perhaps the spark of a new manager would be what we needed to face Boston head-on instead of rolling over against them again.

[deuce]

DT seemed like the kind of guy we're looking for right now when he took over the team, taking infield practice, calling out miggi for lack of hustle, etc... What happened to that guy? He makes Ray Miller look like Ozzie Guillen in the dugout. Teams typically take on the mentality of their skipper and it's clear this team has done just that. I don't know who the right manager is for this team. But it's clear DT is not the right guy today.

I loved DT when he first came aboard swiftly kicking the team in the butt. That guy is gone and DT is now asleep at the wheel and has steered the team off of a cliff.

[TonySoprano]

I agree that sending in a new manager to face NY and Boston is a pretty tough thing to do. At the same time, the way we have rolled over against those two teams in the recent past, I'd rather have the new guy run that gauntlet than have DT guide us through another 1-11 or 2-10 stretch.

I do think Trembley has given us 100% and is well prepared. I really rooted hard for him to succeed. But I think this is more than just calling for a sacrificial lamb -- I think he has lost his edge. Three years of losing has beaten him down and he has become too accepting of it.I reject the premise that anybody on this team has accepted losing.

Nor would I throw in an interim manager to take their beating against NY and Boston. Give the interim manager a chance to get off on the right foot. In the 0-21 streak of 1988, 15 of those losses went to Frank Robinson, even though Ripken Sr is the one that most people remember.

[SteveA]

One thing to consider here, would it be fair to any new manager or even an interim manager to start off facing the Yankees and Red Sox for 12 straight games with this team?

Everyone knows I've been a big supporter of Dave, but I certainly understand there comes a time when change is necessary. I didn't see the game last night but I do find the Lugo situation last night to be disturbing, especially considering his response to Thirne when questioned about the situation.

Dave might just be shell-shocked at this point. No one could have predicted a complete melt down by the offense led by the loss of their leadoff man Roberts and followed up by a cold spell by almost every single hitter. No one could have predicted their closer would be terrible then hurt, and a guy who was counted on to be a staple in their bullpen (Koji) would be out all year so far (ok, maybe we could have guessed 'ol Softi-san would miss some time). No one would have guessed that Bergesen was not going to be anywhere near where he was last year (shoulder?) or that Tillman's command would digress.

I have to disagree on the starting pitching. If you had told me that three of our starters were consistently putting up good to excellent starts, one of them had good starts in all but one outing where he got hit hard, and one would have been lit up -- I would not have been the least bit surprised. I might not have guessed the names right, I probably woudl have guessed Guthrie was the one being lit up. But honestly, our starting pitching has done everything you could possibly have asked of it this year.



All of those things have conspired to doom the Orioles this year and ultimately will probably doom Trembley and possibly his staff. I agree with Drungo that Trembley is a pretty conventional manager and to me, he's done a pretty good job with some pretty dismal talent over the last few years. However, no organization can accept losing at this pace, especially when the home crowds have been dismal and now the core fans, such as ones on here are reaching their breaking points.

Trembley might be relieved of his duties soon, and it might even be the right thing to do under the old "change for change sake is good," but if he is let go, it will not be becuase he didn't care or that he didn't prepare as best as he could.

In the end something will probably happen because the natives are demanding a sacrifice and Trembley in the sacrificial lamb position of being a manager on the last year of his contract on the worse team in baseball right now.

I guess I don't get how he's "done a pretty good job" the past few years. I agree he hasn't been given talent. But the records have been miserable. Even taking the awful talent he was given into effect, what has he done that any other manager wouldn't have done?

This goes back to the "should Trembley be fired" argument last October. Most of the Trembley backers said he shoudln't be judged on W/L because of the talent that he had been given and where we were in the rebuilding process, that it wouldn't be fair to fire him based on record. But when I asked what POSITIVE things they felt he had done as manager, there were very few answers. Most arguments for keeping Trembley revolved around whether it was "fair" to fire him. I felt that his contract was up, and that we should get the best man for the job. If you could make a positive argument that Trembley was the best man for the job, then he should get it. But most peole didn't look at it that way. Even though his contract was up they still felt like it was his job and that taking it away from him was unfair or that he "deserved a chance" to be there this year when we improved :( . There were very few arguments actually explaining why he was the best person for the job.

[Jagwar]

I agree that sending in a new manager to face NY and Boston is a pretty tough thing to do. At the same time, the way we have rolled over against those two teams in the recent past, I'd rather have the new guy run that gauntlet than have DT guide us through another 1-11 or 2-10 stretch.

I do think Trembley has given us 100% and is well prepared. I really rooted hard for him to succeed. But I think this is more than just calling for a sacrificial lamb -- I think he has lost his edge. Three years of losing has beaten him down and he has become too accepting of it.

I'm with you. If a change is necessary, I don't care if the next roadtrip is in Hades.

[TonySoprano]

It will be interesting to see how many people climb on here......now that Frobby is leading the charge, Dave's doomed.;)

[LA2]

This team is not as bad as it looks right now. If Leyland or LaRussa were the manager of this team I think we would have at least 7 wins by now and 7-8 would look a lot better than 2-13 which is embarrassing.

Therefore, when the players play as well as they should, we'll know it was because of the manager. :scratchchinhmm:


DT does not want to face the Red Sox and Yankees 12 straight games and it appears he is hoping to be replaced.

Wow, how did you find THAT out?! :eektf:


Our failure to bring in runners from scoring position continues to be embarrassing. Valentine, Melvin, Garner, Komminsk, whoever it is, would probably explode after 4 or 5 games if this continued under their watch.

As of two days ago, the Red Sox were in a 0 for 32 RISP slump. Haven't heard any news of Terry Francona, who's been a more successful manager than any of the ones you listed, freaking out about it.


The Orioles will probably keep all of the coaches if DT is replaced because it's what they've always done in the past. It's wrong and hopefully AM realizes this and cleans house.

Because Shelby, Samuel, and Kranitz have done such lousy jobs this year? I beg to differ.

[TonySoprano]

This is an oversimplification, but the O's need the anti-Trembley now.

What's that? I guess it's an experienced major league manager who has no problem taking guys to task in a public, open way, and someone who just doesn't care about "playing the game right" when it might conflict with winning..You just described Frank Robinson

[NewMarketSean]

You just described Frank Robinson

Man, Frank would be like Danny Glover from Lethal Weapon if the O's offered the job to him. "I'm to old for this s---".

[wickedwitch]

Because Shelby, Samuel, and Kranitz have done such lousy jobs this year? I beg to differ.Neither Shelby or Samuel have been particularly impressive, especially the latter.

[TonySoprano]

I'm only talking short term here, Drungo. If the O's were hitting .250 in RISP situations I wouldn't be advocating this.That falls more heavily on Trembley than the hitting coach? I ask this because I don't see you calling for Crow to be replaced.

[clapdiddy]

The thing that scares me about getting rid of Trembley right now is that we'll make a decision on a successor who won't be a long-term solution, either.

If this were to come to fruition, I would hope that someone currently on staff would be named interim manager with the full understanding that they are simply that.

I believe we would need to have a somewhat prolonged interview process to find the right fit.

I may be in the minority, but hiring someone who has not yet been a MLB manager, but has been a coach or MiL manager in a successful, youth-oriented organization would be the best fit. Someone mentioned Dave Martinez...and he sounds intriguing. Someone from Oakland or Minnesota might be a good fit.

Not sure how everyone else feels...but I'm ready for a complete overhaul.

[NewMarketSean]

The thing that scares me about getting rid of Trembley right now is that we'll make a decision on a successor who won't be a long-term solution, either.

If this were to come to fruition, I would hope that someone currently on staff would be named interim manager with the full understanding that they are simply that.

I believe we would need to have a somewhat prolonged interview process to find the right fit.

I may be in the minority, but hiring someone who has not yet been a MLB manager, but has been a coach or MiL manager in a successful, youth-oriented organization would be the best fit. Someone mentioned Dave Martinez...and he sounds intriguing. Someone from Oakland or Minnesota might be a good fit.

Not sure how everyone else feels...but I'm ready for a complete overhaul.

MacPhail should basically tell them, "we want to do exactly what Oakland or Minnesota does, down to the laundry detergent they use."

[LA2]

Neither Shelby or Samuel have been particularly impressive, especially the latter.

The post I was replying to was calling for Kranitz's head as well.
Name one thing that Shelby has done wrong this season or last.
Samuel seems to have corrected his propensity for windmilling runners home. The only controversial bolt for home has been Atkins' on the groundball misplayed by Longoria--and THAT was something dictated by baseball dogma, not Samuel. We saw the Mariners do the same thing yesterday.

[theobird]

You just described Frank Robinson

I think the description fits Jim Palmer even better, except the experienced ML Manager part. I want Jim Palmer, because with Palmer I can guarantee that nobody will get away with anything less than 100% effort. And I also think that Jim Palmer is a graduate of the "Earl Weaver ML Manager academy", which is good enough for me.

[SilentJames]

Jim Palmer wouldn't do it. Jim doesn't want that responsibility or schedule. Jim is the political radio host - he likes to ocmment but he will never run for office.

A coach also needs to be a teacher, and just because you are great at something doesn't mean you know how to teach it.

A lot of young teachers burn out because the kids "are dumber" well they are not, its just that you were significantly above average growing up and you are teaching people that tend to be crushingly average.

A guy like Kevin Millar would be a great coach. But someone like A-Rod would probably be horrible.

The Orioles will most likely stay within the org for the rest of this season. I'm thinking a guy like Komminsk.

It is such a shame, I truly believe Dave Trembley is a good guy and has the tools to be a good manager - but last night he looked beaten down, and I don't blame him, but he can't get beaten down. The general can't show weakness, the teacher can't let the students see how they get to him. Trembley showed some weakness last night, at the worst time possible.

[Miller192]

Not to say that I was ever happy when a manager was fired, but there was a sense of relief for me when Mazzilli and Perlozzo were let go.

I do think that it's time for a change but I'm not going to feel that same sense of relief if DT gets the can.

I think Dave is very passionate about the Orioles and it's going to be a little sad to see that torch get extinguished.

[DrungoHazewood]

I think the description fits Jim Palmer even better, except the experienced ML Manager part. I want Jim Palmer, because with Palmer I can guarantee that nobody will get away with anything less than 100% effort. And I also think that Jim Palmer is a graduate of the "Earl Weaver ML Manager academy", which is good enough for me.

Has there ever been a successful major league manager who made his professional managerial debut at Palmer's age (turns 65 this year)?

Maybe Palmer would be good, but hiring a 64-year-old managerial rookie would be unusual, to say the least.

[Frobby]

That falls more heavily on Trembley than the hitting coach? I ask this because I don't see you calling for Crow to be replaced.

The new manager should decide what to do with Crowley and the rest of the coaches. Personally, I've defended Crowley against attempts to scapegoat him on many past occasions, but I think a new perspective may be warranted.

[Tranquil1]

I agree that sending in a new manager to face NY and Boston is a pretty tough thing to do. At the same time, the way we have rolled over against those two teams in the recent past, I'd rather have the new guy run that gauntlet than have DT guide us through another 1-11 or 2-10 stretch.

I do think Trembley has given us 100% and is well prepared. I really rooted hard for him to succeed. But I think this is more than just calling for a sacrificial lamb -- I think he has lost his edge. Three years of losing has beaten him down and he has become too accepting of it.

How come you can say this and your post isn't called a pile of crap? I said the same thing a week ago (although I didn't word it exactly the same) and one of the omnipotent posters here called the sentiment drivel and stupid. I wonder.....

[Nigel Tufnel]

Actually, I think being a good guy who trusts his players to do the right thing works quite often. Lots of Hall of Fame managers were definitely not out of the John McGraw, Earl Weaver, Billy Martin, Dick Williams mold.

It just doesn't work in all places at all times.

Wow, I didn't write that well. I was trying to say that DT was going against his nature (nice guy instead of drill sergeant) and that's what rarely works. You've got to dance with who brung you.

[Miller192]

How come you can say this and your post isn't called a pile of crap? I said the same thing a week ago (although I didn't word it exactly the same) and one of the omnipotent posters here called the sentiment drivel and stupid. I wonder.....

Street cred...

[DrungoHazewood]

Wow, I didn't write that well. I was trying to say that DT was going against his nature (nice guy instead of drill sergeant) and that's what rarely works. You've got to dance with who brung you.

Oh, ok, yea. If Trembley really is trying to play some role (which I kind of doubt) that's gonna work for, like, 10 minutes.

[JTrea81]

The new manager should decide what to do with Crowley and the rest of the coaches. Personally, I've defended Crowley against attempts to scapegoat him on many past occasions, but I think a new perspective may be warranted.

That's pretty diplomatic.

The guy may be great at working individually with hitters on their swing, but his offenses have been pretty poor in certain categories.

Replacing him is long overdue.

[Old#5fan]

That's pretty diplomatic.

The guy may be great at working individually with hitters on their swing, but his offenses have been pretty poor in certain categories.

Replacing him is long overdue.

He seems to have worked wonders though with Pie. I am not sure Crowley is to blame for these hitter's approaches. I think that falls on the manager.

[SilentJames]

That's pretty diplomatic.

The guy may be great at working individually with hitters on their swing, but his offenses have been pretty poor in certain categories.

Replacing him is long overdue.

Last year his offense was a pretty solid offense and did very very well with RISP.

This year not so much. So take that for what its worth.

[NewMarketSean]

Last year his offense was a pretty solid offense and did very very well with RISP.

This year not so much. So take that for what its worth.

But the approach at the plate is still poor in general. No patience.

[Sports Guy]

Last year his offense was a pretty solid offense and did very very well with RISP.

This year not so much. So take that for what its worth.

The approach he seems to preach is awful.

We need a hitting coach that preaches patience, working the count, etc...We play so many teams that consistently have much better approaches at the plate.

Now, AM also has to stop going for these hack away guys as well.

[LA2]

I am not sure Crowley is to blame for these hitter's approaches. I think that falls on the manager.

:scratchchinhmm: :laughlol:

[Old#5fan]

But the approach at the plate is still poor in general. No patience.

Like they were saying last nite (Palmer I think) it is very hard to be patient when you have been mired in a slump since the season started, knowing that a walk isn't going to raise your 220 BA. He said it is much easier for a hot hitting guy like Wigginton to be patient than Adam Jones for example. I agree with that.

[SilentJames]

The approach he seems to preach is awful.

We need a hitting coach that preaches patience, working the count, etc...We play so many teams that consistently have much better approaches at the plate.

Now, AM also has to stop going for these hack away guys as well.

But we have had some fairly solid offenses over the years. It's never really been the problem. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but you can't deny that this streak is the poorest we've seen in a long time, when you think of the talent we have at the plate, or at least should have at the plate.

[Frobby]

How come you can say this and your post isn't called a pile of crap? I said the same thing a week ago (although I didn't word it exactly the same) and one of the omnipotent posters here called the sentiment drivel and stupid. I wonder.....

I hadn't read your post that you referred to, but I went back and looked for it. You basically said that the O's 30-3 loss in August 2007 showed that Trembley accepted losing too easily. That's what the other poster was responding to. And while I would never call another poster's opinion "crap," I don't agree that the 30-3 game showed anything about whether Trembley accepts losing or not. Having been at that game in person, I can tell you that any manager would have been helpless in that situation. And that was the first game of a doubleheader, and the O's fought their butts off in Game 2 (though eventually they lost).

[Tranquil1]

I hadn't read your post that you referred to, but I went back and looked for it. You basically said that the O's 30-3 loss in August 2007 showed that Trembley accepted losing too easily. That's what the other poster was responding to. And while I would never call another poster's opinion "crap," I don't agree that the 30-3 game showed anything about whether Trembley accepts losing or not. Having been at that game in person, I can tell you that any manager would have been helpless in that situation. And that was the first game of a doubleheader, and the O's fought their butts off in Game 2 (though eventually they lost).

Thanks for your reply.
The 30-3 game was the the first part. The way the team has played at the end of the last two years was the second part. I know I'm in the minority here with this opinion, but I don't ever want to see a manager of my team allow the team to take a beating like that. Many people will say hey it's only one game, but a loss like that hangs on an organization a long while. I'll bet opposing players (particularly first baseman) rubbed our noses in it for a while afterward. Now one might wonder what Trembley could have done about it. I would have brought my best pitcher in the game once the score had gotten to 25 and told him to do whatever it took to stop it right there and then. That would have been Bedard. Second game be damned. We weren't in a pennant race, so the second game really meant nothing. Just my two cents.

Edit: Personally, I would never want to be associated with a loss like that. I'm too damn competitive. I have always thought that anyone willing to absorb a beating like that without fighting back was a loser.

[Gofannon]

The worst part for me is that if you showed someone last night's game and asked them what month the game was played based on team focus, hustle and fundamentals, the answer would be September.

The team has really been like that almost from day one this year. They got hit in the mouth with some close losses, but they've looked listless since like the fifth day of the season.

If your team looks like it's playing out the string in September and it's April, it's time for the manager to go.

[wickedwitch]

They got hit in the mouth with some close losses, but they've looked listless since like the fifth day of the season.The second blown save plus losing Roberts has really hurt us.

[waroriole]

I'm not exactly hoping for a change, but it could be for the best. This team has shown no signs of life and they aren't doing the little things to help us break out of it. I don't know whose fault it is, but a new voice could be for the best.

One question, if we get someone from outside the organization how does that work. Especially if we get rid of all coaches. Who would be available to just come in on a moment's notice and take over?

[TonySoprano]

The new manager should decide what to do with Crowley and the rest of the coaches. Personally, I've defended Crowley against attempts to scapegoat him on many past occasions, but I think a new perspective may be warranted.
I submit that the team should fire Crowley first, before Trembley, to see if the hitters respond to that change.

I think the description fits Jim Palmer even better, except the experienced ML Manager part. When he was manager of the Nationals, Frank pulled a player (name escapes me at the moment) out of the game in the middle of an inning for making a boneheaded play.

[hoosiers]

I've been a pretty constant critic of DT and perhaps a change is needed, but I believe he'd be more of a scapegoat than anything else at this point.

Roberts is a killer injury and the entire start is just unfathomable given the quality of the SP through the sixth inning on most nights.

If Markakis and Jones are not going to hit, no manager is going to lead us through this period. We are not fielding a major league lineup right now.

I'm actually impressed that DT is not over-managing right now.

[Sports Guy]

But we have had some fairly solid offenses over the years. It's never really been the problem. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but you can't deny that this streak is the poorest we've seen in a long time, when you think of the talent we have at the plate, or at least should have at the plate.

How are you defining this? I don't think this is correct unless by solid, you mean league average or slightly worse.

[DrungoHazewood]

Thanks for your reply.
The 30-3 game was the the first part. The way the team has played at the end of the last two years was the second part. I know I'm in the minority here with this opinion, but I don't ever want to see a manager of my team allow the team to take a beating like that. Many people will say hey it's only one game, but a loss like that hangs on an organization a long while. I'll bet opposing players (particularly first baseman) rubbed our noses in it for a while afterward. Now one might wonder what Trembley could have done about it. I would have brought my best pitcher in the game once the score had gotten to 25 and told him to do whatever it took to stop it right there and then. That would have been Bedard. Second game be damned. We weren't in a pennant race, so the second game really meant nothing. Just my two cents.

Edit: Personally, I would never want to be associated with a loss like that. I'm too damn competitive. I have always thought that anyone willing to absorb a beating like that without fighting back was a loser.

Once it got to 18 or 20 runs I'd have put in the left fielder or the utility infielder to pitch and treated the game as the goofy farce that it was. I would have let Steve Trachsel play third base if he wanted. If DT had put the ace in and ordered him to stop the bleeding no matter what, I'd have lost my faith in him as a manager right there.

[SilentJames]

How are you defining this? I don't think this is correct unless by solid, you mean league average or slightly worse.

Pretty much, being right around league average is a solid offense in my mind.

Anything better I would classify as "good", but that is just semantics. It seems to me that the thing has always been the lack of effective pitchers in key areas.

To me something that is solid is something that gives you a chance to win more games than you lose but not really good enough to take you any further than that or make up for other shortcomings.

Even with a slightly below league average offense (depending on how slight it is) if you have league average pitching you should be right around .500.

[Sports Guy]

How are you defining this? I don't think this is correct unless by solid, you mean league average or slightly worse.

Last 5 seasons(AL rankings):

2005:

10th in runs...42 runs worse than league average
5th in OPS...7 points above league average
8th in OBP...3 points below league average

2006:

10th in runs...36 runs worse than league average
9th in OPS...13 points worse than league average
8th in OBP...league average

2007:

9th in runs...38 runs worse than league average
10th in OPS....14 points below league average
9th in OBP...5 points below league average

2008:

8th in runs...7 more than league average
8th in OPS...7 points above league average
8th in OBP...2 poitns below league average

2009:

11th in runs...40 runs below league average
10th in OPS..16 points below league average
8th in OBP...3 points below league average

That's just the last 5 years...How is that solid?

[NewMarketSean]

Before yesterday's game, the TV guys were talking about the M's offense and how they know they are a weak offense. So to compensate for that, their hitting coach was preaching patience across the board.

The same thing needs to happen here.

[Tony-OH]

Thanks for your reply.
The 30-3 game was the the first part. The way the team has played at the end of the last two years was the second part. I know I'm in the minority here with this opinion, but I don't ever want to see a manager of my team allow the team to take a beating like that. Many people will say hey it's only one game, but a loss like that hangs on an organization a long while. I'll bet opposing players (particularly first baseman) rubbed our noses in it for a while afterward. Now one might wonder what Trembley could have done about it. I would have brought my best pitcher in the game once the score had gotten to 25 and told him to do whatever it took to stop it right there and then. That would have been Bedard. Second game be damned. .

No offense, and I know you are new, but that may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on here and that's saying something.

[Mackus]

I would have brought my best pitcher in the game once the score had gotten to 25 and told him to do whatever it took to stop it right there and then. That would have been Bedard. Second game be damned.That would have been just about the dumbest move in managerial history.

[SilentJames]

Last 5 seasons(AL rankings):

2005:

10th in runs...42 runs worse than league average
5th in OPS...7 points above league average
8th in OBP...3 points below league average

2006:

10th in runs...36 runs worse than league average
9th in OPS...13 points worse than league average
8th in OBP...league average

2007:

9th in runs...38 runs worse than league average
10th in OPS....14 points below league average
9th in OBP...5 points below league average

2008:

8th in runs...7 more than league average
8th in OPS...7 points above league average
8th in OBP...2 poitns below league average

2009:

11th in runs...40 runs below league average
10th in OPS..16 points below league average
8th in OBP...3 points below league average

That's just the last 5 years...How is that solid?

fair enough.

[Frobby]

Last 5 seasons(AL rankings):

2005:

10th in runs
5th in OPS
8th in OBP

2006:

10th in runs
9th in OPS
8th in OBP

2007:

9th in runs
10th in OPS
9th in OBP

2008:

8th in runs
8th in OPS
8th in OBP

2009:

11th in runs
10th in OPS
8th in OBP

That's just the last 5 years...How is that solid?

It is only solid in comparison with the pitching, which has been worse. But the problem with citing these numbers is that the fact that the offense is below average isn't necessarily the fault of the hitting coach. The talent has a lot to do with it. I could give you a pretty decent list of players who came to the Orioles and did better under Crowley than they were doing before, or who left the Orioles and did worse than they were doing under Crowley.

[Tranquil1]

No offense, and I know you are new, but that may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on here and that's saying something.

Why is it so ridiculous?

[Lucky Jim]

Why is it so ridiculous?

Because it wastes resources and courts injury all in the name of stopping some arbitrary and irrelevant threshold from being reached.

It really is ridiculous.

I would have definitely fired him for that.

[RShack]

It's been that way for a week, has it? You've known that the players have been just waiting for it to happen, have you? DT's known it too? Well, how clever of you to keep this a personal secret until after Frobby started his fire-DT thread.

Now, in fairness, it's not just you, it's several folks. Frobby starts it, and people come out of the woodwork, talking about DT in the past tense and claiming that he already knows he's gone. This from people who apparently didn't know that themselves until Frobby started this thread... but the minute that happens, they're suddenly sure about it...

The Me-Too Train is now leaving on Track 47.... All aboard!!!


What is YOUR opinion?
My opinion is...
This thread is a about 98% a Frobby bandwagon. Very few were talking like this until Frobby started the thread, and most of that few were doing it for the last year. But Frobby starts a thread about firing DT and all-the-sudden people are talking about DT like he's a dead man.
.
Go back and read the OP. What pushed Frobby over the edge was DT's lack of action in the face of Julio Lugo (of all people) running out a GB out. Then, go read Frobby's follow up and the presser. Somebody asked DT about that very thing, and Frobby is appalled that DT didn't know what the questioner was referring to. Personally, I wouldn't care if Lugo disappeared from the face of the Earth and was never heard from again. But I don't think that DT's awareness of, and reaction to, something that Julio Friggin Lugo did or didn't do is compelling proof of anything. Why was DT inattentive about Lugo? Beats me. Maybe he was thinking about something else. Maybe he was numb. No way for me to know. But the idea that this incident constitutes a basis for flipping one's opinion about DT is IMO ludicrous. (Note: I am not saying that the Lugo thing is the reason Frobby is unhappy. But I am saying that, for Frobby, it is clearly the straw the broke the camel's back.)
.
Since Frobby flipped, both he and lots of other folks are talking as if DT is fine with losing, the team has given up, yada-yada. It is BS to say that DT is fine with losing. It is BS that the team has given up. The pitching staff is doing fine, the players care and are trying, and nobody is hitting. Yes, the team appears flat, but it's absurd to talk as if the team being flat in the midst of a crappy streak is somehow remarkable. To the contrary, a team being flat in the midst of a crappy street is pretty normal. I'm not recommending it, but I am saying it's ridiculous to talk is if there is something strange or unusual about a team being flat in the middle of a crappy streak. This is true regardless of whether Frobby has lost his mind or not.
.
As Frobby correctly pointed out shortly before his very abrupt fire-DT epiphany, DT is playing with half a team. Both guys with closer experience are out. The guy who was our best SP last year just got sent to Norfolk. Our 2B-man and lead-off hitter is out. Our 3B-man is out. One LF-er is out and the other one is not running right. DT is left with two-thirds of a lineup, it's like having 18 outs instead of 27. Of the other guys, most are slumping. They're not giving up, they're slumping and they're not happy about it. People who claim they're not trying to get hits, and are fine with losing, are just full of crap... and, yes, that includes Frobby if that's what he thinks.
.
What the team needs is to have some hits fall in for a couple games in a row. Once the slump stops, that will fix lots of other things. The mass opinion that's popped up here is that the way you fix things is to hold guys accountable and punish them. Anybody who thinks that's how you fix a slump is just plain ignorant. As I said elsewhere (http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2106709&postcount=18), I wish I could find the quote from Chipper Jones talking about what happens to you when you're in a slump. The idea that you fix that by punishing somebody is just a stupid idea.
.
Firing DT will not fix what's going on. Firing DT will not stop a hitting slump. Firing DT will not bring guys off the DL.
-
DT may or may not get fired. It is completely normal for managers to get fired for things that are not their fault. However, it is not completely normal for managers to get fired because Frobby says so. What is happening on this board right now is a me-too bandwagon about firing DT that *is* caused by Frobby saying so. I respect Frobby, but I don't think he deserves that kind of influence.
Now, I realize all of that does not fit on a bumpersticker, so some folks here won't like it, simply because reading is oh-so-much-work. But that's what I think is going on. Now, do I think DT should be fired now? No, I do not. I think he should have more than 3 weeks of a season when half the guys who matter are hurt. If the hitting doesn't come around fairly soon, DT may well be the one who pays the price. But doing it because Frobby lost it over a DT's response to the Lugo thing, and now suddenly wants DT's head on a plate, is absurd... and that's exactly what's happening here...

ps: Frobby has every right to want DT's head on a plate. That's not what bothers me. It's the sudden mob of copycats that bothers me.

[SilentJames]

Why is it so ridiculous?

because you are burning out your pitcher you need to try and win the next game in a useless effort.

You have lost, it doesn't matter, you need to be protecting pitchers for the next game so you win. It doesn't matter if it was 30 runs, it is just one loss.

If you go on an win the next game then you are 1-1 on the day and you're ready to go tomorrow.

Seriously, that would be the single dumbest thing you could do in that situation.

[SilentJames]

My opinion is...
This thread is a about 98% a Frobby bandwagon. Very few were talking like this until Frobby started the thread, and most of that few were doing it for the last year. But Frobby starts a thread about firing DT and all-the-sudden people are talking about DT like he's a dead man.
.
Go back and read the OP. What pushed Frobby over the edge was DT's lack of action in the face of Julio Lugo (of all people) running out a GB out. Then, go read Frobby's follow up and the presser. Somebody asked DT about that very thing, and Frobby is appalled that DT didn't know what the questioner was referring to. Personally, I wouldn't care if Lugo disappeared from the face of the Earth and was never heard from again. But I don't think that DT's awareness of, and reaction to, something that Julio Friggin Lugo did or didn't do is compelling proof of anything. Why was DT inattentive about Lugo? Beats me. Maybe he was thinking about something else. Maybe he was numb. No way for me to know. But the idea that this incident constitutes a basis for flipping one's opinion about DT is IMO ludicrous. (Note: I am not saying that the Lugo thing is the reason Frobby is unhappy. But I am saying that, for Frobby, it is clearly the straw the broke the camel's back.)
.
Since Frobby flipped, both he and lots of other folks are talking as if DT is fine with losing, the team has given up, yada-yada. It is BS to say that DT is fine with losing. It is BS that the team has given up. The pitching staff is doing fine, the players care and are trying, and nobody is hitting. Yes, the team appears flat, but it's absurd to talk as if the team being flat in the midst of a crappy streak is somehow remarkable. To the contrary, a team being flat in the midst of a crappy street is pretty normal. I'm not recommending it, but I am saying it's ridiculous to talk is if there is something strange or unusual about a team being flat in the middle of a crappy streak. This is true regardless of whether Frobby has lost his mind or not.
.
As Frobby correctly pointed out shortly before his very abrupt fire-DT epiphany, DT is playing with half a team. Both guys with closer experience are out. Our 2B-man and lead-off hitter is out. Our 3B-man is out. One LF-er is out and the other one is not running right. DT is left with two-thirds of a lineup, it's like having 18 outs instead of 27. Of the other guys, most are slumping. They're not giving up, they're slumping and they're not happy about it. People who claim they're not trying to get hits, and are fine with losing, are just full of crap... and, yes, that includes Frobby if that's what he thinks.
.
What the team needs is to have some hits fall in for a couple games in a row. Once the slump stops, that will fix lots of other things. The mass opinion that's popped up here is that the way you fix things is to hold guys accountable and punish them. Anybody who thinks that's how you fix a slump is just plain ignorant. As I said elsewhere (http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2106709&postcount=18), I wish I could find the quote from Chipper Jones talking about what happens to you when you're in a slump. The idea that you fix that by punishing somebody is just a stupid idea.
.
Firing DT will not fix what's going on. Firing DT will not stop a hitting slump. Firing DT will not bring guys off the DL.
-
DT may or may not get fired. It is completely normal for managers to get fired for things that are not their fault. However, it is not completely normal for managers to get fired because Frobby says so. What is happening on this board right now is a me-too bandwagon about firing DT that *is* caused by Frobby saying so. I respect Frobby, but I don't think he deserves that kind of influence.
Now, I realize all of that does not fit on a bumpersticker, so some folks here won't like it, simply because reading is oh-so-much-work. But that's what I think is going on. Now, do I think DT should be fired now? No, I do not. I think he should have more than 3 weeks of a season when half the guys who matter are hurt. If the hitting doesn't come around fairly soon, DT may well be the one who pays the price. But doing it because Frobby lost it over a DT's response to the Lugo thing, and now suddenly wants DT's head on a plate, is absurd... and that's exactly what's happening here...

ps: Frobby has every right to want DT's head on a plate. That's not what bothers me. It's the sudden mob of copycats that bothers me.

Shack spare us.

[Tranquil1]

Once it got to 18 or 20 runs I'd have put in the left fielder or the utility infielder to pitch and treated the game as the goofy farce that it was. I would have let Steve Trachsel play third base if he wanted. If DT had put the ace in and ordered him to stop the bleeding no matter what, I'd have lost my faith in him as a manager right there.

If you want to treat it as a joke that's one thing but why would you have lost faith in the manager for bringing the ace in? Is it really that far fetched? It is obvious to me that you and others don't regard a 30-3 loss as anything special. I submit that it further enhances the poor image this franchise has in baseball.

[ChaosLex]

My opinion is...
This thread is a about 98% a Frobby bandwagon. Very few were talking like this until Frobby started the thread, and most of that few were doing it for the last year. But Frobby starts a thread about firing DT and all-the-sudden people are talking about DT like he's a dead man.
.
Go back and read the OP. What pushed Frobby over the edge was DT's lack of action in the face of Julio Lugo (of all people) running out a GB out. Then, go read Frobby's follow up and the presser. Somebody asked DT about that very thing, and Frobby is appalled that DT didn't know what the questioner was referring to. Personally, I wouldn't care if Lugo disappeared from the face of the Earth and was never heard from again. But I don't think that DT's awareness of, and reaction to, something that Julio Friggin Lugo did or didn't do is compelling proof of anything. Why was DT inattentive about Lugo? Beats me. Maybe he was thinking about something else. Maybe he was numb. No way for me to know. But the idea that this incident constitutes a basis for flipping one's opinion about DT is IMO ludicrous. (Note: I am not saying that the Lugo thing is the reason Frobby is unhappy. But I am saying that, for Frobby, it is clearly the straw the broke the camel's back.)
.
Since Frobby flipped, both he and lots of other folks are talking as if DT is fine with losing, the team has given up, yada-yada. It is BS to say that DT is fine with losing. It is BS that the team has given up. The pitching staff is doing fine, the players care and are trying, and nobody is hitting. Yes, the team appears flat, but it's absurd to talk as if the team being flat in the midst of a crappy streak is somehow remarkable. To the contrary, a team being flat in the midst of a crappy street is pretty normal. I'm not recommending it, but I am saying it's ridiculous to talk is if there is something strange or unusual about a team being flat in the middle of a crappy streak. This is true regardless of whether Frobby has lost his mind or not.
.
As Frobby correctly pointed out shortly before his very abrupt fire-DT epiphany, DT is playing with half a team. Both guys with closer experience are out. Our 2B-man and lead-off hitter is out. Our 3B-man is out. One LF-er is out and the other one is not running right. DT is left with two-thirds of a lineup, it's like having 18 outs instead of 27. Of the other guys, most are slumping. They're not giving up, they're slumping and they're not happy about it. People who claim they're not trying to get hits, and are fine with losing, are just full of crap... and, yes, that includes Frobby if that's what he thinks.
.
What the team needs is to have some hits fall in for a couple games in a row. Once the slump stops, that will fix lots of other things. The mass opinion that's popped up here is that the way you fix things is to hold guys accountable and punish them. Anybody who thinks that's how you fix a slump is just plain ignorant. As I said elsewhere (http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2106709&postcount=18), I wish I could find the quote from Chipper Jones talking about what happens to you when you're in a slump. The idea that you fix that by punishing somebody is just a stupid idea.
.
Firing DT will not fix what's going on. Firing DT will not stop a hitting slump. Firing DT will not bring guys off the DL.
-
DT may or may not get fired. It is completely normal for managers to get fired for things that are not their fault. However, it is not completely normal for managers to get fired because Frobby says so. What is happening on this board right now is a me-too bandwagon about firing DT that *is* caused by Frobby saying so. I respect Frobby, but I don't think he deserves that kind of influence.
Now, I realize all of that does not fit on a bumpersticker, so some folks here won't like it, simply because reading is oh-so-much-work. But that's what I think is going on. Now, do I think DT should be fired now? No, I do not. I think he should have more than 3 weeks of a season when half the guys who matter are hurt. If the hitting doesn't come around fairly soon, DT may well be the one who pays the price. But doing it because Frobby lost it over a DT's response to the Lugo thing, and now suddenly wants DT's head on a plate, is absurd... and that's exactly what's happening here...

ps: Frobby has every right to want DT's head on a plate. That's not what bothers me. It's the sudden mob of copycats that bothers me.

RShack, I respect your opinion, but do you seriously think everyone wants DT fired because Frobby said so? There have been A LOT of people calling for his firing since the home opener.

[Mackus]

If you want to treat it as a joke that's one thing but why would you have lost faith in the manager for bringing the ace in? Is it really that far fetched? It is obvious to me that you and others don't regard a 30-3 loss as anything special. I submit that it further enhances the poor image this franchise has in baseball.I'd rather win the second game than lose the first one 25-3 instead of 30-3. Its the same reason that sometimes you leave a starter in to take a pounding when you need to rest your bullpen. Sacrifice a battle to have a better chance of winning a war.

Bringing Bedard or any of your starters in to finish a game that we are clearly going to lose is simply stupid. There is no other word for it.

[Tranquil1]

Fellas, we are going to agree to disagree. You guys are not going to see my point of view. Oh well...........

[tvz1997]

If people don't think that last night's game was a turning point in people's opinions of DT's retention and that this is all about some Frobby-sheep thing, they should check out the game thread.

[Knife_Dixon]

Thanks for your reply.
The 30-3 game was the the first part. The way the team has played at the end of the last two years was the second part. I know I'm in the minority here with this opinion, but I don't ever want to see a manager of my team allow the team to take a beating like that. Many people will say hey it's only one game, but a loss like that hangs on an organization a long while. I'll bet opposing players (particularly first baseman) rubbed our noses in it for a while afterward. Now one might wonder what Trembley could have done about it. I would have brought my best pitcher in the game once the score had gotten to 25 and told him to do whatever it took to stop it right there and then. That would have been Bedard. Second game be damned. We weren't in a pennant race, so the second game really meant nothing. Just my two cents.

Edit: Personally, I would never want to be associated with a loss like that. I'm too damn competitive. I have always thought that anyone willing to absorb a beating like that without fighting back was a loser.

First, I guess its kind of piling on, but yeah, that would be the worst thing I have ever heard. Why jeopardize future games for one that is hopeless? Not sure you have ever played before or not, but sometimes its just not your night. Usually, 30 runs isn't on the table but EVERYONE takes a drubbing.

Second, I think your main point might have been lost by the ridiculous suggestion above. While, I have enjoyed reading this thread and am glad it was started, I do think if you or I, or JTrea had started it, we would have been lambasted. Us for different reasons than JTrea, but the inevitable "couldn't this have gone in one of the hundred other Trembley threads" would have come out. Granted, your statement about the 30-3 game didn't do you any favors as far as getting people to value your opinion.

If you are going to start threads you just have to expect it.

[Tranquil1]

I'd rather win the second game than lose the first one 25-3 instead of 30-3. Its the same reason that sometimes you leave a starter in to take a pounding when you need to rest your bullpen. Sacrifice a battle to have a better chance of winning a war.

Bringing Bedard or any of your starters in to finish a game that we are clearly going to lose is simply stupid. There is no other word for it.

If we were in a pennant race where the second game meant something, you'd be correct. At this point the franchise can ill afford looking that sad. But it continues. It is not as stupid as you would like to believe.

[Lucky Jim]

Fellas, we are going to agree to disagree. You guys are not going to see my point of view. Oh well...........

I think we see it. You've tagged anything above 25 runs with some unquantifiable, nebulous, and unsupported value and said that it's worth wasting your best pitcher's innings on avoiding it.

And all of us disagree and think it's ridiculous.

Disagreeing with you is sometimes more than "not seeing a point." It's recognizing the point, considering it, and rejecting it emphatically.

No big deal, really. You've expressed your idea of this value. I just don't see any basis for it. (I mean, 1B giving us grief?)

[Agent0]

Dave Trembley seems to be the kind of guy who won't save the pen in a 30-3 loss by using Chad Moeller to pitch the last two innings, because that's not respecting the game. He's the kind of guy who probably wouldn't have ended up with Lenn Sakata catching (and subsequently hitting the game winning homer), because that's not playing the game right. He wouldn't play Jon Knott in left because his defense was below average, but he was fine with Jay Payton because everyone strikes out but Major Leaguers aren't supposed to look lost in the field.

That's the kind of thing I meant. Dave is a conventional manager, one who seems like he'd rather be at a disadvantage while managing conventionally, than take a chance on winning while also increasing his odds of being embarrassed.

The problem in selecting a new manager is that most people are just like Dave.

I know what you're driving at but these examples will just confuse people. Moeller wasn't on the team in '07 and the guys that DID relieve in that game were pretty much dead weight anyway. Yeah, you won't find many managers that would pull their last catcher and have a second baseman behind that plate, so that's not on just Trembley. Beside, he's either had ramon Hernandez or Matt Weiters so it's not like he's really been put into a position where a PH for the catcher was a huge upgrade. He's PH for guys and ended up with goofy defenses and no DH, if that counts in your book. Lastly, Jon Knott didn't play because he sucked both at the plate and in the field (as opposed to JP who could play some D). Knott wasn't even brought up that September when rosters expanded.

I'm not a Trembley guy at all, but you could have found more pertinent examples. :D


Yea. All that.

I really think they need to follow (a part of) the 1980s Steinbrenner model. Obviously not the wacko firing and hiring of Billy Martin every six months, but the willingness to inject a spark by hiring the anti-manager. Big Stein would fire Martin, who was an obsessive, controlling, out-of-control jerk, and replace him with somebody like Dick Howser, who was kind of like your nice uncle Fred who gives kids lollypops. The Yanks would win, but when the nice guy routine got old and the millionaires started ruling the clubhouse he'd dump the manager and hire Martin, or some other drill sargent.

This is an oversimplification, but the O's need the anti-Trembley now.

What's that? I guess it's an experienced major league manager who has no problem taking guys to task in a public, open way, and someone who just doesn't care about "playing the game right" when it might conflict with winning.

I'm not sure who that is, but that's my recommendation.

This is pretty common, to cycle from a "player's coach" to a "taskmaster". It's done all the time in the NFL, MLB, and the NBA. The Yankees of the '80's just did it more often than most. Frankly, I can't really say that it had a huge payoff for them, in terms of producing postseason appearances.

I just want us to get the best guy, period, both in terms of preparing his players and having a feel for in-game managing.

[RShack]

Shack spare us.
The guy asked my opinion, and I provided it. If you don't like it, tough. Forgive me for not being a sheep and agreeing with the horde who suddenly decided DT should be fired because Frobby thinks so.


RShack, I respect your opinion, but do you seriously think everyone wants DT fired because Frobby said so? There have been A LOT of people calling for his firing since the home opener.
No, there have not been a lot of people calling for it since the home opener. There have been a few, and most of them never liked DT. The magic moment when A LOT of people started calling for it was when Frobby did. That's a fact, Jack...

[SilentJames]

Fellas, we are going to agree to disagree. You guys are not going to see my point of view. Oh well...........

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

Would you spend money to replace the brakes on a car that doesn't have a working engine?

Then why would you burn your best pitcher and your chances of winning a game that night to stop a team from getting five more runs?

I mean you understand that it would not have mattered if the Rangers had scored 300 runs right, it was still just one loss.

[24fps]

If you want to treat it as a joke that's one thing but why would you have lost faith in the manager for bringing the ace in? Is it really that far fetched? It is obvious to me that you and others don't regard a 30-3 loss as anything special. I submit that it further enhances the poor image this franchise has in baseball.

IMO the decision to write off that game is probably best understood within the context of triage. That casualty wasn't going to survive no matter what, so no reason to waste precious resources.

That being said, a lot of us are sympathetic to your underlying point that pride matters.

[Tranquil1]

First, I guess its kind of piling on, but yeah, that would be the worst thing I have ever heard. Why jeopardize future games for one that is hopeless? Not sure you have ever played before or not, but sometimes its just not your night. Usually, 30 runs isn't on the table but EVERYONE takes a drubbing.

Second, I think your main point might have been lost by the ridiculous suggestion above. While, I have enjoyed reading this thread and am glad it was started, I do think if you or I, or JTrea had started it, we would have been lambasted. Us for different reasons than JTrea, but the inevitable "couldn't this have gone in one of the hundred other Trembley threads" would have come out. Granted, your statement about the 30-3 game didn't do you any favors as far as getting people to value your opinion.

If you are going to start threads you just have to expect it.

That is easily done on this site. I feel like I'm bleeding and I'm in the water with a bunch of sharks, but it's Ok.

Yes, I've played, and I'd be damned if I would have participated in a joke of a game like that.

[Hank Scorpio]

The guy asked my opinion, and I provided it. If you don't like it, tough. Forgive me for not being a sheep and agreeing with the horde who suddenly decided DT should be fired because Frobby thinks so.


No, there have not been a lot of people calling for it since the home opener. There have been a few, and most of them never liked DT. The magic moment when A LOT of people started calling for it was when Frobby did. That's a fact, Jack...

I think a lot of people saw DT's reaction or lackthereof to some BS last night, heard both commentators sorta call him out on it, agreed with them and then realized that perhaps Trembley has changed since he tookover.

I think this stems more from Thorne & Palmer's reaction than it does from Frobby's.

[SilentJames]

The guy asked my opinion, and I provided it. If you don't like it, tough. Forgive me for not being a sheep and agreeing with the horde who suddenly decided DT should be fired because Frobby thinks so.


No, there have not been a lot of people calling for it since the home opener. There have been a few, and most of them never liked DT. The magic moment when A LOT of people started calling for it was when Frobby did. That's a fact, Jack...

No, the fact was that the Orioles lost another very winnable game and nothing was done to Lugo who was CLEARLY dogging it up the line. And I mean clearly.

what Lugo did was entirely unacceptable. There is "not running full speed" (which every player in the universe does) and then there was what Lugo did. That deserved immediate action and Dave should have done it.

Mazzilli got canned when he stopped showing up to team meetings that HE called. Now, I love DT - but Lugo better not be in the lineup tonight.

[ChaosLex]

No, there have not been a lot of people calling for it since the home opener. There have been a few, and most of them never liked DT. The magic moment when A LOT of people started calling for it was when Frobby did. That's a fact, Jack...

So, just to clarify, I started a poll this morning asking whether or not DT should be relieved of command. At last count, the vote was 109-6 that he should. You think a majority of those people sprung up because of Frobby's thread?

If so, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Hooded Viper]

First, I guess its kind of piling on, but yeah, that would be the worst thing I have ever heard. Why jeopardize future games for one that is hopeless? Not sure you have ever played before or not, but sometimes its just not your night. Usually, 30 runs isn't on the table but EVERYONE takes a drubbing.

Second, I think your main point might have been lost by the ridiculous suggestion above. While, I have enjoyed reading this thread and am glad it was started, I do think if you or I, or JTrea had started it, we would have been lambasted. Us for different reasons than JTrea, but the inevitable "couldn't this have gone in one of the hundred other Trembley threads" would have come out. Granted, your statement about the 30-3 game didn't do you any favors as far as getting people to value your opinion.

If you are going to start threads you just have to expect it.

Oh good god, are you really going to cry about not getting the same respect as one of the most repected posters on the site? Frobby is the OH's version of Methuselah and given his longevity and his ridiculous amount of insightful threads is granted the "street cred" he deserves. You have to earn respect and if anyone starts a thread that is well thought out, laid out and factual then you will quickly gain credibility. The difference between this board and many others, especially the Sun, is they do not allow a ton of trolls to come in here and post moronic crap! Good lord.

[Frobby]

My opinion is... [list]
This thread is a about 98% a Frobby bandwagon. Very few were talking like this until Frobby started the thread, and most of that few were doing it for the last year. But Frobby starts a thread about firing DT and all-the-sudden people are talking about DT like he's a dead man....

ps: Frobby has every right to want DT's head on a plate. That's not what bothers me. It's the sudden mob of copycats that bothers me.

I've never tried to set myself up as someone whose opinion should matter any more than anyone else's on the board, and frankly, I don't think there are many posters here who will agree with an opinion just becuase it comes from me. I just want to clarify one thing -- I didn't have a sudden epiphany. It's more like last night was the straw that broke the camel's back. I was on the fence last year as to whether DT should be invited back, and said I would go along with whatever MacPhail decided because I trusted his judgment. But I don't like what I'm seeing on the field. I don't mean just the losing, it's the very passive approach the Orioles are taking to the game. And that starts with Trembley. I just don't sense the same fire and resolve from him that shined through so clearly in prior years.

[RShack]

I think a lot of people saw DT's reaction or lackthereof to some BS last night, heard both commentators sorta call him out on it, agreed with them and then realized that perhaps Trembley has changed since he tookover.

I think this stems more from Thorne & Palmer's reaction than it does from Frobby's.
Yeah, well, funny that it didn't happen in response to the announcers saying it, it happened in response to Frobby saying it. Maybe you think that's just a coincidence, but I don't...

[Hank Scorpio]

Yeah, well, funny that it didn't happen in response to the announcers saying it, it happened in response to Frobby saying it. Maybe you think that's just a coincidence, but I don't...

I don't think we're going to open up any holes in the universe here, so it's not a big deal... but I'm just saying that someone who typically would never say anything negative about the manager did so during the game, right after the play. Then we saw Trembley dismiss the question in the postgame.

Those are bad signs.

[Tranquil1]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

Would you spend money to replace the brakes on a car that doesn't have a working engine?

Then why would you burn your best pitcher and your chances of winning a game that night to stop a team from getting five more runs?

I mean you understand that it would not have mattered if the Rangers had scored 300 runs right, it was still just one loss.

James, with all due respect, I'm not making myself clear. That kind of loss represents more than just one game. It adds stink to an already smelly franchise. Who wants to be a part of that? I submit that is why we have problems attracting the top flight free agents. Nice picture in your post. I've seen it dozens of times....:) (NOT directed at me, though)

[Old#5fan]

No, the fact was that the Orioles lost another very winnable game and nothing was done to Lugo who was CLEARLY dogging it up the line. And I mean clearly.

what Lugo did was entirely unacceptable. There is "not running full speed" (which every player in the universe does) and then there was what Lugo did. That deserved immediate action and Dave should have done it.

Mazzilli got canned when he stopped showing up to team meetings that HE called. Now, I love DT - but Lugo better not be in the lineup tonight.

Why do so many people post the "love" Dave Trembley? He seems like a great guy but the facts show that he is far from a great manager. In fact, an argument could be made that he's a terrible major league manager. So I would rather have a winning manager that nobody "loves" than this guy. Sorry, just had to say it. He's not a winner.

[RShack]

I've never tried to set myself up as someone whose opinion should matter any more than anyone else's on the board, and frankly, I don't think there are many posters here who will agree with an opinion just becuase it comes from me. I just want to clarify one thing -- I didn't have a sudden epiphany. It's more like last night was the straw that broke the camel's back. I was on the fence last year as to whether DT should be invited back, and said I would go along with whatever MacPhail decided because I trusted his judgment. But I don't like what I'm seeing on the field. I don't mean just the losing, it's the very passive approach the Orioles are taking to the game. And that starts with Trembley. I just don't sense the same fire and resolve from him that shined through so clearly in prior years.
I agree that you have done nothing to try to put yourself in the role. I disagree with the idea that you are not in that role.

As for the camel's back thing, if you go back and look, I used that very phrase. At the same time, it was very recently that you made the point about DT playing with half-a-team.

I fully support your right to have your opinion and to state that opinion publicly. But if you think it's not influencing others a great deal, you're being naive about that... perhaps out of being humble, I'm not criticizing you for it, but I am saying it's naive. You have a lot of influence around here, and that's true whether you want that influence or not, and it's true whether you recognize it or not.

[Knife_Dixon]

That is easily done on this site. I feel like I'm bleeding and I'm in the water with a bunch of sharks, but it's Ok.

Yes, I've played, and I'd be damned if I would have participated in a joke of a game like that.

And when your ace gets pounded just like everyone else that night? Sometimes you don't have a choice in whether or not you take your beating like you seem to think. I get your point about whether its more important to stop the bleeding or give yourself a better chance to win later. I guess I could see how someone would think that, I just don't agree with it.

Secondly, it is easily done here and I mentioned it because I kind of felt bad, but I certainly didn't want anyone to think I agreed with what you said about the 30-3 game and I wanted to get to your larger point that was lost in the argument.

[Sports Guy]

The guy asked my opinion, and I provided it. If you don't like it, tough. Forgive me for not being a sheep and agreeing with the horde who suddenly decided DT should be fired because Frobby thinks so.


No, there have not been a lot of people calling for it since the home opener. There have been a few, and most of them never liked DT. The magic moment when A LOT of people started calling for it was when Frobby did. That's a fact, Jack...Am I the only one who finds it ironic that Mrs MacPhail actually called someone else a sheep? LOL
:laughlol::rofl:

[Lucky Jim]

Yeah, well, funny that it didn't happen in response to the announcers saying it, it happened in response to Frobby saying it. Maybe you think that's just a coincidence, but I don't...

Okay, so you've identified a correlation, and based on nothing other than your (less than generous) estimation of the wits and reason of this board, decided that people are following Frobby's call to arms.

That's fine. As long as you recognize the serious limitations of your opinion.

Now, as alternatives, there are plenty of options:

(i) that there's a threshold of tolerance for ineptitude that finally got passed. Perhaps tolerance charts like a Bell curve, which means there are concentrations at points where tolerance ends. Temporal coincidence of independent reactions.

(ii) that the announcers had an influence;

(iii) that folks recognize their own irrationality and, though silent before about their frustrations, figured that Frobby's agreement vetted their feelings re: DT. I.e., Frobby is a proxy for reason. In this instance, it's not people glomming onto Frobby's perspective, but rather Frobby's late-arrival at agreement validating their already-arrived at conclusions.

Any of these are equally valid. So, what we have here is really more of a Rorschach test for posters' feelings about the ability of board members to decide for themselves these issues. I think we know where you stand.

[RShack]

So, what we have here is really more of a Rorschach test for posters feelings about the ability of board members to decide for themselves these issues.
I agree with this...

[TGO]

I agree that you have done nothing to try to put yourself in the role. I disagree with the idea that you are not in that role.

As for the camel's back thing, if you go back and look, I used that very phrase. At the same time, it was very recently that you made the point about DT playing with half-a-team.

I fully support your right to have your opinion and to state that opinion publicly. But if you think it's not influencing others a great deal, you're being naive about that... perhaps out of being humble, I'm not criticizing you for it, but I am saying it's naive. You have a lot of influence around here, and that's true whether you want that influence or not, and it's true whether you recognize it or not.

Do you ever walk outside and yell at the wind because it's only blowing the direction the weather vane says it's blowing?

[Lucky Jim]

I agree with this...

As long as you realize what that means.

[TinCup]

This thread has become quite entertaining. ;)

[Frobby]

I agree that you have done nothing to try to put yourself in the role. I disagree with the idea that you are not in that role.

As for the camel's back thing, if you go back and look, I used that very phrase. At the same time, it was very recently that you made the point about DT playing with half-a-team.

I fully support your right to have your opinion and to state that opinion publicly. But if you think it's not influencing others a great deal, you're being naive about that... perhaps out of being humble, I'm not criticizing you for it, but I am saying it's naive. You have a lot of influence around here, and that's true whether you want that influence or not, and it's true whether you recognize it or not.

There is no doubt that DT's options are much more limited right now because BRob, Pie, and Tejada are all unavailable. BRob's loss is particularly difficult, because the gap between him and his replacements at 2B is huge, and he fills the leadoff role in a way nobody else can. But I think a manager has to make adjustments to his overall approach and game plan to account for missing pieces, and I just don't think DT has done a good job. Also, not just now but each of the last three years, I have felt like when times got tough, Trembley kind of tightened up and it reflected on his team. He has a body language and cadence of speech when the team is losing that is noticeably taut, and I think it causes the team to press. I know that's a hard thing to prove, and I'm not in the locker room or hearing what goes on, but from what is observable to me, that is what I perceive.

[RShack]

There is no doubt that DT's options are much more limited right now because BRob, Pie, and Tejada are all unavailable. BRob's loss is particularly difficult, because the gap between him and his replacements at 2B is huge, and he fills the leadoff role in a way nobody else can. But I think a manager has to make adjustments to his overall approach and game plan to account for missing pieces, and I just don't think DT has done a good job. Also, not just now but each of the last three years, I have felt like when times got tough, Trembley kind of tightened up and it reflected on his team. He has a body language and cadence of speech when the team is losing that is noticeably taut, and I think it causes the team to press. I know that's a hard thing to prove, and I'm not in the locker room or hearing what goes on, but from what is observable to me, that is what I perceive.
I fully believe you are sincere...

[Old#5fan]

To me its as simple as this. In life, work, etc. one gets rewarded with success and held accountable for failure. This team is failing. Now excuses are rampant but the bottom line is this team has been pretty much lousy ever since DT took over except for the brief stretch where he was in his "interim" status. So the bottom line is when you manage or coach a team you get judged on results. The results are simply below satisfactory any way you look at it and as a result he has to go. He knows it, the players know it, the fans know it, the media knows it, and Peter Angelos knows it. The only one who so far hasn't seemed like he knows it is Andy McPhail which is why Trembley is still hanging on by a thread.

[Knife_Dixon]

I agree with this...

My opinion would be that its far more likely that several people felt this way before Frobby said anything and did not feel comfortable expressing that opinion. They only felt comfortable once a "more respected poster" espoused the same view. Its not the only explanation, but I think far more likely than your suggestion. And, ironically, they probably held their opinion back to escape ridicule like yours, only to get it later anyway.

[RShack]

As long as you realize what that means.
Correlation does not rule out causation. In fact, high correlation is one necessary criteria that supports causation. Not the only one certainly, but a powerful one. As you well know, we don't have a basis for resolving the issue here in a methodical way. But, if you stop and think about the bandwagon tendencies around here in general, there is a fair amount of circumstantial evidence. You might not wanna admit it, but it you step away and think about it before you respond, I imagine that you will agree that's true, apart from whether you think it applies in this instance...

[Agent0]

Watching this moribund team tonight, it is apparent that a change is needed. It feels very much like the O's felt right before Mazzilli and Perlozzo each got the axe. Trembley just sat there stone-faced while Julio Lugo trotted down the 1B line instead of running out a grounder. The same when the O's made no effort to advance a leadoff runner on 2B to 3rd -- twice. Then to top it off, he left DH out there in total disregard of the signs that he had run out of gas.

I've defended DT over and over again, and cautioned against blaming him for the team's lack of talent, untimely hitting or poor pitching. But let me say this as clearly as I can:

The Dave Trembley sitting in the dugout tonight was not the guy who took over from Sam Perlozzo in June 2007. That Dave Trembley had no problem forcing the team to take infield practice on road trips, or calling out players who were late getting to the clubhouse, or doing what he could to get his players to act like winners. This Dave Trembley looks resigned to defeat. And so, even though he can hardly be blamed for everything going on with this team, he needs to go. Soon.

I have never been a DT guy. I like his preparation, his respect for the game and his appreciation for being an Oriole. I don't think he's anything special as an in-game manager and I don't like the way he was brought in (among other things).

Having said that, if one thinks he was the right guy for the job before last night, I don't see how Lugo not running out a grounder (and not getting tossed for it) should change that. I doubt that the guy that so many professed to like before would simply "give up" and lose focus.


.......This goes back to the "should Trembley be fired" argument last October. Most of the Trembley backers said he shoudln't be judged on W/L because of the talent that he had been given and where we were in the rebuilding process, that it wouldn't be fair to fire him based on record. But when I asked what POSITIVE things they felt he had done as manager, there were very few answers. Most arguments for keeping Trembley revolved around whether it was "fair" to fire him. I felt that his contract was up, and that we should get the best man for the job. If you could make a positive argument that Trembley was the best man for the job, then he should get it. But most peole didn't look at it that way. Even though his contract was up they still felt like it was his job and that taking it away from him was unfair or that he "deserved a chance" to be there this year when we improved :( . There were very few arguments actually explaining why he was the best person for the job.

Exactly.


My opinion is...
This thread is a about 98% a Frobby bandwagon. Very few were talking like this until Frobby started the thread, and most of that few were doing it for the last year. But Frobby starts a thread about firing DT and all-the-sudden people are talking about DT like he's a dead man.
.
Go back and read the OP. What pushed Frobby over the edge was DT's lack of action in the face of Julio Lugo (of all people) running out a GB out. Then, go read Frobby's follow up and the presser. Somebody asked DT about that very thing, and Frobby is appalled that DT didn't know what the questioner was referring to. Personally, I wouldn't care if Lugo disappeared from the face of the Earth and was never heard from again. But I don't think that DT's awareness of, and reaction to, something that Julio Friggin Lugo did or didn't do is compelling proof of anything. Why was DT inattentive about Lugo? Beats me. Maybe he was thinking about something else. Maybe he was numb. No way for me to know. But the idea that this incident constitutes a basis for flipping one's opinion about DT is IMO ludicrous. (Note: I am not saying that the Lugo thing is the reason Frobby is unhappy. But I am saying that, for Frobby, it is clearly the straw the broke the camel's back.)
.
Since Frobby flipped, both he and lots of other folks are talking as if DT is fine with losing, the team has given up, yada-yada. It is BS to say that DT is fine with losing. It is BS that the team has given up. The pitching staff is doing fine, the players care and are trying, and nobody is hitting. Yes, the team appears flat, but it's absurd to talk as if the team being flat in the midst of a crappy streak is somehow remarkable. To the contrary, a team being flat in the midst of a crappy street is pretty normal. I'm not recommending it, but I am saying it's ridiculous to talk is if there is something strange or unusual about a team being flat in the middle of a crappy streak. This is true regardless of whether Frobby has lost his mind or not.
.
As Frobby correctly pointed out shortly before his very abrupt fire-DT epiphany, DT is playing with half a team. Both guys with closer experience are out. The guy who was our best SP last year just got sent to Norfolk. Our 2B-man and lead-off hitter is out. Our 3B-man is out. One LF-er is out and the other one is not running right. DT is left with two-thirds of a lineup, it's like having 18 outs instead of 27. Of the other guys, most are slumping. They're not giving up, they're slumping and they're not happy about it. People who claim they're not trying to get hits, and are fine with losing, are just full of crap... and, yes, that includes Frobby if that's what he thinks.
.
What the team needs is to have some hits fall in for a couple games in a row. Once the slump stops, that will fix lots of other things. The mass opinion that's popped up here is that the way you fix things is to hold guys accountable and punish them. Anybody who thinks that's how you fix a slump is just plain ignorant. As I said elsewhere (http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2106709&postcount=18), I wish I could find the quote from Chipper Jones talking about what happens to you when you're in a slump. The idea that you fix that by punishing somebody is just a stupid idea.
.
Firing DT will not fix what's going on. Firing DT will not stop a hitting slump. Firing DT will not bring guys off the DL.
-
DT may or may not get fired. It is completely normal for managers to get fired for things that are not their fault. However, it is not completely normal for managers to get fired because Frobby says so. What is happening on this board right now is a me-too bandwagon about firing DT that *is* caused by Frobby saying so. I respect Frobby, but I don't think he deserves that kind of influence.
Now, I realize all of that does not fit on a bumpersticker, so some folks here won't like it, simply because reading is oh-so-much-work. But that's what I think is going on. Now, do I think DT should be fired now? No, I do not. I think he should have more than 3 weeks of a season when half the guys who matter are hurt. If the hitting doesn't come around fairly soon, DT may well be the one who pays the price. But doing it because Frobby lost it over a DT's response to the Lugo thing, and now suddenly wants DT's head on a plate, is absurd... and that's exactly what's happening here...

ps: Frobby has every right to want DT's head on a plate. That's not what bothers me. It's the sudden mob of copycats that bothers me.

I found the OP to be somewhat reactionary too.....however, I've never really been a DT supporter so I can't criticize it (or the reaction to it) to the extent that you are.

DT got the job in 2007 to keep the seat warm for Girardi. Girardi turned us down, confirming to the rest of the world that he actually had eyes and a brain in his head. Now, for some reason, AM decided that DT was worth giving the job to in 2008 as well....but also decided that he was NOT worth guaranteeing a second year to. DT has been given a very low bar to hurdle and has the extra incentive of NOT having a contract of more than 13 months (DT has pretty much been a lame duck the entire time he's been here)...yet we get very little in the way of results. I'm not blaming him exclusively, I'm just saying that there's no compelling reason to keep him.

Quite honestly, I feel that AM decided to keep him around was simply because he felt that the organization didn't quite have enough appeal to get the candidates he was most interested in. That, and giving DT a chance to win some games after taking so many losses for the organization. I don't really agree with Frobby's revelation, but if it that's how others arrive at the conclusion that change would not be a bad thing, I'm not going to argue. :D

[Dwight Schrute]

The guy asked my opinion, and I provided it. If you don't like it, tough. Forgive me for not being a sheep and agreeing with the horde who suddenly decided DT should be fired because Frobby thinks so.


No, there have not been a lot of people calling for it since the home opener. There have been a few, and most of them never liked DT. The magic moment when A LOT of people started calling for it was when Frobby did. That's a fact, Jack...

Fair enough, but were you watching last night when Lugo walked 3/4 of the way to first, walked back to the dugout, and Trembley sat there looking about as interested as I did at my income tax preparation appointment. I think that is why alot of people are calling for his head today, not because of Frobby. And if you did see that and don't think he should be fired then I don't know what else to say really.

[tennOsfan]

Just for RShack's benefit, I got on the board this morning with the intention of posting exactly what I posted in this thread. I simply added my thoughts to the thread Frobby started.

I am not a sheep.

[waroriole]

What a shocker, RShack is bad mouthing people for their opinions. What's next OldFan saying Markakis is overrated, or JTrea wanting to trade for a power bat.:rolleyes:

[SilentJames]

Fair enough, but were you watching last night when Lugo walked 3/4 of the way to first, walked back to the dugout, and Trembley sat there looking about as interested as I did at my income tax preparation appointment. I think that is why alot of people are calling for his head today, not because of Frobby. And if you did see that and don't think he should be fired then I don't know what else to say really.

I saw Trembley standing on rail with a lineup card. I honestly thought he was thinking about taking Lugo out. Maybe he didn't want to expose Turner to a lefty?He didn't look "disinterested" it actually looked like he was thinking about something while looking at his cards.

[RShack]

Fair enough, but were you watching last night when Lugo walked 3/4 of the way to first, walked back to the dugout, and Trembley sat there looking about as interested as I did at my income tax preparation appointment. I think that is why alot of people are calling for his head today, not because of Frobby. And if you did see that and don't think he should be fired then I don't know what else to say really.
I don't think DT's reaction to Lugo warrants firing the manager.
I do think that the pitching is good, the games are mostly close, and there is nothing wrong that a few hits and fewer injuries won't fix. I do not believe a new manager will either cure injuries or end slumps. Maybe you do, but I don't...

[Dwight Schrute]

I saw Trembley standing on rail with a lineup card. I honestly thought he was thinking about taking Lugo out. Maybe he didn't want to expose Turner to a lefty?He didn't look "disinterested" it actually looked like he was thinking about something while looking at his cards.

Not what it looked like to me but either way if he actually did go through that thought process and decided not to put Turner in because of that versus sending the message to the team that he doesn't tolerate things like that then I think that is even worse.

[SilentJames]

I don't think DT's reaction to Lugo warrants firing the manager.
I do think that the pitching is good, the games are mostly close, and there is nothing wrong that a few hits and fewer injuries won't fix. I do not believe a new manager will either cure injuries or end slumps. Maybe you do, but I don't...

And you are probably right. If the bats wake up and the Orioles go on a 10 for 15 run and we are sitting here at 12-18 in a couple weeks we can look at this debate and it would be silly.

But, the team is showing no signs of life right now and, like it or not, this is a situation where people lose their jobs. You can only defend Dave so much and he fell in my esteem when he didn't get on Lugo last night.

[Yard Bird]

Any chance they have Trembley on "Wired Wednesday" tonight? It has the potential to be the best interview of the year.

[Dwight Schrute]

I don't think DT's reaction to Lugo warrants firing the manager.
I do think that the pitching is good, the games are mostly close, and there is nothing wrong that a few hits and fewer injuries won't fix. I do not believe a new manager will either cure injuries or end slumps. Maybe you do, but I don't...

No, you're right, a team full of young guys should definitely get the impression that its fine to not hustle or play the game the right way. Perfectly acceptable. A few hits and all will be fine.

[Dwight Schrute]

Any chance they have Trembley on "Wired Wednesday" tonight? It has the potential to be the best interview of the year.

I hope the new manager has the autonomy to get rid of things like this completely. Can you imagine what Weaver would say if they asked him to be miked up during a game talking to Thorne about jibberish?

[Sports Guy]

Last 5 seasons(AL rankings):

2005:

10th in runs...42 runs worse than league average
5th in OPS...7 points above league average
8th in OBP...3 points below league average

2006:

10th in runs...36 runs worse than league average
9th in OPS...13 points worse than league average
8th in OBP...league average

2007:

9th in runs...38 runs worse than league average
10th in OPS....14 points below league average
9th in OBP...5 points below league average

2008:

8th in runs...7 more than league average
8th in OPS...7 points above league average
8th in OBP...2 poitns below league average

2009:

11th in runs...40 runs below league average
10th in OPS..16 points below league average
8th in OBP...3 points below league average

That's just the last 5 years...How is that solid?Are there any other hitting coaches that would last with this recent record?

[TinCup]

Are there any other hitting coaches that would last with this recent record?

Angelos must really love TC. Only explanation.

[Greg Pappas]

I can assure RShack or anyone else that neither Frobby, nor any other poster/columnist here at the Hangout or elsewhere- can single-handedly influence my views on a matter to the point I "suddenly" switch my views or "bandwagon" upon a topic.

Frobby is my favorite poster, as I imagine he is with many others here... and I submit that his views on matters do tend to grab my attention.

It just so happens that because:
**he shares my own views on the vast majority of matters...
**takes care with his words and his views...
**researches his opinions quite well, when necessary...
**is most often even-handed in his judgments...

...he has earned a great deal of my admiration and respect. Hence his 'voice' carries a bit more weight than most.

That's just one man's take.


Regarding Trembley, he and the rest of the staff should be replaced as soon as possible, and this team given a new vision, sense of respect and direction. My stance on this will not change... unless Frobby says so. :D

[clapdiddy]

Are there any other hitting coaches that would last with this recent record?

I hear what you are saying, but I can't solely blame Crowley for this. It's also very dependent on the hitters that we bring to this team.

We've brought in a lot of guys who are hackers with mediocre OBP, which is more important than any other offensive statistic.

I don't blame Crowley for that.

[RShack]

And you are probably right. If the bats wake up and the Orioles go on a 10 for 15 run and we are sitting here at 12-18 in a couple weeks we can look at this debate and it would be silly.

But, the team is showing no signs of life right now and, like it or not, this is a situation where people lose their jobs.
I agree that if the complete lack of hitting continues, the manager pays the price. That's just what happens. But people here are talking like he's a dead man, and are saying that he won't get the chance to have the bats wake up, that his firing is already a done deal, everybody knows it, yada-yada. They're also saying that he's fine with losing, the team has given up, etc., etc., despite the fact that the P is fine, the games are close, etc. People are saying lots of dumb stuff...

[Dipper9]

Watching this moribund team tonight, it is apparent that a change is needed. It feels very much like the O's felt right before Mazzilli and Perlozzo each got the axe. Trembley just sat there stone-faced while Julio Lugo trotted down the 1B line instead of running out a grounder. The same when the O's made no effort to advance a leadoff runner on 2B to 3rd -- twice. Then to top it off, he left DH out there in total disregard of the signs that he had run out of gas.

I've defended DT over and over again, and cautioned against blaming him for the team's lack of talent, untimely hitting or poor pitching. But let me say this as clearly as I can:

The Dave Trembley sitting in the dugout tonight was not the guy who took over from Sam Perlozzo in June 2007. That Dave Trembley had no problem forcing the team to take infield practice on road trips, or calling out players who were late getting to the clubhouse, or doing what he could to get his players to act like winners. This Dave Trembley looks resigned to defeat. And so, even though he can hardly be blamed for everything going on with this team, he needs to go. Soon.

I agree 100%. Him sitting there and doing nothing during that Lugo exchange, and not even seeming to care at all about it, was the final straw for me. Meanwhile Palmer and Gary were just going crazy about it. How can we all be SO fed up with this team, and yet Trembley and the coaching staff just sits there doing nothing? I wouldn't be surprised if they all (the coaching staff) know they are gone very very soon.

[Cokeman]

I agree that if the complete lack of hitting continues, the manager pays the price. That's just what happens. But people here are talking like he's a dead man, and are saying that he won't get the chance to have the bats wake up, that his firing is already a done deal, everybody knows it, yada-yada. They're also saying that he's fine with losing, the team has given up, etc., etc., despite the fact that the P is fine, the games are close, etc. People are saying lots of dumb stuff...

I will agree with that as long as you aren't excluding yourself...

[Lucky Jim]

I can assure RShack or anyone else that neither Frobby, nor any other poster/columnist here at the Hangout or elsewhere- can single-handedly influence my views on a matter to the point I "suddenly" switch my views or "bandwagon" upon a topic.

Frobby is my favorite poster, as I imagine he is with many others here... and I submit that his views on matters do tend to grab my attention.

It just so happens that because:
**he shares my own views on the vast majority of matters...
**takes care with his words and his views...
**researches his opinions quite well, when necessary...
**is most often even-handed in his judgments...

...he has earned a great deal of my admiration and respect. Hence his 'voice' carries a bit more weight than most.

That's just one man's take.


Regarding Trembley, he and the rest of the staff should be replaced as soon as possible, and this team given a new vision, sense of respect and direction. My stance on this will not change... unless Frobby says so. :D

Indeed. This board's Steven Spielberg.

[Miller192]

I am a sheep and Frobby is my shepherd.

[Gofannon]

I don't think DT's reaction to Lugo warrants firing the manager.
I do think that the pitching is good, the games are mostly close, and there is nothing wrong that a few hits and fewer injuries won't fix. I do not believe a new manager will either cure injuries or end slumps. Maybe you do, but I don't...

I am a reasonably infrequent visitor and less frequent poster on the board, so when I ask this, I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely interested in the answer.

Rshack, with Perlozzo/Mazzilli/Hargrove, did you reach a point where you were ready to let them go, or do you generally stand by the viewpoint that managers can only do so much? You're apparently not a fan of "change for change's sake", at least in the managerial position.

Again, not snarky, just wondering.

[Marc Spector]

Look it's time, I said he should be gone last September........BTW, how many OH Trembley defenders who jumped all over me and all the other DT bashers last fall have openly conceded they and the Orioles' brass were HORRIBLY wrong and we were 100% right????

[clapdiddy]

I guarantee this thread has been read all over the Warehouse today... and probably has got the attention of some because it was Frobby that started the thread.

Yup...Frobby is the "everyman" of this board. He doesn't make quick judgments and is willing to give the benefit of the doubt on most of the O's moves.

[ccbird]

It's been that way for a week, has it? You've known that the players have been just waiting for it to happen, have you? DT's known it too? Well, how clever of you to keep this a personal secret until after Frobby started his fire-DT thread.

Now, in fairness, it's not just you, it's several folks. Frobby starts it, and people come out of the woodwork, talking about DT in the past tense and claiming that he already knows he's gone. This from people who apparently didn't know that themselves until Frobby started this thread... but the minute that happens, they're suddenly sure about it...

The Me-Too Train is now leaving on Track 47.... All aboard!!!

Yes, thank god Frobby started this thread. I'm clearly following the "leader" of this board and can't think for myself. It's not like I didn't say the exact same thing in the "bad baseball" thread before I saw Frobby's thread. I know I don't post on the O's board nearly as much as other sections anymore but I've been around here for 7 or 8 years. I figured I had at last enough respect that people would think I can think for myself.

[Lucky Jim]

Yes, thank god Frobby started this thread. I'm clearly following the "leader" of this board and can't think for myself. It's not like I didn't say the exact same thing in the "bad baseball" thread before I saw Frobby's thread. I know I don't post on the O's board nearly as other sections anymore but I've been around here for 7 or 8 years. I figured I had at last enough respect that people would think I can think for myself.

Yeah, Shack's theory is truly a Trea-ean leap into correlation/causation confusion. Doesn't mean he's wrong, of course.

[Sports Guy]

Yeah, Shack's theory is truly a Trea-ean leap into correlation/causation confusion. Doesn't mean he's wrong, of course.

Hasn't there basically been a fire DT thread for most of this season?

And haven't many people wanted him gone for a while?

Rshack acting as if this is some isolated thread is a complete joke but "par for the course" when it comes to him.

[RShack]

I am a reasonably infrequent visitor and less frequent poster on the board, so when I ask this, I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely interested in the answer.

Rshack, with Perlozzo/Mazzilli/Hargrove, did you reach a point where you were ready to let them go, or do you generally stand by the viewpoint that managers can only do so much? You're apparently not a fan of "change for change's sake", at least in the managerial position.

Again, not snarky, just wondering.
When Hargrove was around, I could not keep up with the team from afar like I can now, so I had no opinion about that. I was fine with Mazzilli and Perlozzo getting canned. I think Mazzilli had weird and unfair circumstances and wasn't really in charge, and I thought that wasn't tenable. I think Sam was a perfect 3B coach and his tenure as manager was a good example of the Peter Principle (which means a guy gets promoted above his level of competence). For Mazzilli, it was more about his circumstances, whereas Sam did and didn't do stuff that drove me nuts.

In all of those cases, the root cause was not the manager but was the crappy state of the franchise in general, how things (didn't) work in the FO, the destruction of the Oriole Way of developing players from within, etc., which clearly fell on PA's shoulders. In comparison, the managerial issue was small potatoes.

[RShack]

I am a sheep and Frobby is my shepherd.
That's funny! Well done...

[Art Wing]

Even if he knows he's gone, you'd think he'd have the pride to yank Lugo for that kind of lack of effort. But I don't remember ever seeing Trembley hold a veteran player accountable for anything. If that were Pie loafing to 1st, I'm sure Trembley would have been all over him, but not Lugo.

Lugo should be cut and Turner should be handed the job everyday until (if) Roberts comes back. If Roberts does have a career ending injury, we'll need to give Turner an extended audition to see if he's the answer at 2b. No time like the present for that given the O's record. But Trembley will keep putting Lugo's name in the lineup, loafing and all despite Turner's possible upside and the organizational needs. Very frustrating.

By not maintaining a certain level of discipline throughout his time here it would seem erratic and extreme to yank Lugo last night. He would need to be more consistent for that move to have the proper effect.

That being said, for a "numbers guy" Trembley has done a poor job managing this team. I like the idea of a "player's manager" but I think there needs to be balance.

I'm in favor of losing Trembley.

[waroriole]

I guarantee this thread has been read all over the Warehouse today... and probably has got the attention of some because it was Frobby that started the thread.

I heard AM was going to let DT last through the year until he heard Frobby said it was time to move on. Now DT is getting fired Thursday. What a sheep AM is.:D

[LA2]

Since Frobby flipped, both he and lots of other folks are talking as if DT is fine with losing, the team has given up, yada-yada. It is BS to say that DT is fine with losing. It is BS that the team has given up. The pitching staff is doing fine, the players care and are trying, and nobody is hitting. Yes, the team appears flat, but it's absurd to talk as if the team being flat in the midst of a crappy streak is somehow remarkable. To the contrary, a team being flat in the midst of a crappy street is pretty normal. I'm not recommending it, but I am saying it's ridiculous to talk is if there is something strange or unusual about a team being flat in the middle of a crappy streak. This is true regardless of whether Frobby has lost his mind or not.
.
As Frobby correctly pointed out shortly before his very abrupt fire-DT epiphany, DT is playing with half a team. Both guys with closer experience are out. The guy who was our best SP last year just got sent to Norfolk. Our 2B-man and lead-off hitter is out. Our 3B-man is out. One LF-er is out and the other one is not running right. DT is left with two-thirds of a lineup, it's like having 18 outs instead of 27. Of the other guys, most are slumping. They're not giving up, they're slumping and they're not happy about it. People who claim they're not trying to get hits, and are fine with losing, are just full of crap... and, yes, that includes Frobby if that's what he thinks.
.
What the team needs is to have some hits fall in for a couple games in a row. Once the slump stops, that will fix lots of other things. The mass opinion that's popped up here is that the way you fix things is to hold guys accountable and punish them. Anybody who thinks that's how you fix a slump is just plain ignorant. As I said elsewhere (http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2106709&postcount=18), I wish I could find the quote from Chipper Jones talking about what happens to you when you're in a slump. The idea that you fix that by punishing somebody is just a stupid idea.
.
Firing DT will not fix what's going on. Firing DT will not stop a hitting slump. Firing DT will not bring guys off the DL.

I agree with RShackelford, as usual. Even if that puts me in a tiny minority re whether to fire Trembley. As for the Lugo incident, it has been pointed out and conveniently forgotten that he hustled in his next AB--probably someone did lecture him. Making such a big deal out of it is crazy. Also, if people are jumping on a bandwagon, I don't think it's FRobby's (with all due respect, he's just a frequent poster to the OH--why wd so many people fall in line behind him?) so much as Palmer's. Palmer embodies so much of what the OH fondly remembers and wishes to see restored. If Brooks or Cal were to rag on Lugo and the team's listlessness, there'd be even more of a storm.

[ccbird]

Explain baseball to me? Excuse me? Conceited much?

As opinionated as I am, I'm the first to admit that my opinion could be wrong and that other people could be right. Clearly you don't have that particular quality.

But when someone who can't even use the word "Your" correctly in a sentence tells me they need to explain baseball to me (and the hundreds, nay thousands of other people who believe Trembley is not a good manager) it sort of undermines their credibility in my book.

Seriously, unless you're secretly a hall of fame baseball executive who gets kicks trolling OH and masquerading as an ill informed megalomaniac, I seriously doubt from your posts you have anything to teach people on OH about baseball.


No problem. I'd definitely considered multiple personality disorder as a possibility for this person. :P

Clearly, everybody who is an O's fan is not in a good mood right now. I do disagree with your opinion of DT as a manager but I really don't feel like defending him anymore. I think it'd be a moot point and I'm ready for a change. So instead, being frustrated and lazy I went the "explain baseball to DT basher route" which obviously wasn't the right way to go.

[TinCup]

I agree with RShackelford, as usual. Even if that puts me in a tiny minority re whether to fire Trembley. As for the Lugo incident, it has been pointed out and conveniently forgotten that he hustled in his next AB--probably someone did lecture him. Making such a big deal out of it is crazy. Also, if people are jumping on a bandwagon, I don't think it's FRobby's (with all due respect, he's just a frequent poster to the OH--why wd so many people fall in line behind him?) so much as Palmer's. Palmer embodies so much of what the OH fondly remembers and wishes to see restored. If Brooks or Cal were to rag on Lugo and the team's listlessness, there'd be even more of a storm.

Come on, you're just saying all of this because Shack is your Pied Piper...

:D

[ccbird]

Yeah, Shack's theory is truly a Trea-ean leap into correlation/causation confusion. Doesn't mean he's wrong, of course.

Like I said, I made the same point in another thread before I saw Frobby's thread. When Frobby starts a thread people open it. I'll admit that I reposted what I said in the other thread to get my thoughts out there. However, I'm very offended by the notion of not being able to think for myself or needing Frobby to start a thread for me to jump on the bandwagon.

[Mike B]

I have been one of DT's supporters throughout the last year and a half, and unlike some, I do not think he is a bad game manager but after watching the last group of games, and players reactions, I think it has become time to try someone else. I think DT becomes the latest of good baseball men who meet their demise in what has become a manager waste land. DT, Perlozzo, Mazzilli, Hargrove, Miller etc. are all good baseball people who IMO all have similar personalities. We need someone who thinks outside the box in regards to lightening the fire under people. Joe Maddon of the Rays, jumped on BJ Upton last year removing him from games, when he felt the effort was not there. That is what I want. There have been a number of names mentioned.
Jim Palmer.....IMO he would laugh at the offer.
Cal Ripken.....never managed, and the downside of failure would be overwhelming in a PR aspect.
Chris Hoiles.......please get serious.
Bob Melvin...similar personality to the recent managers
Rick Dempsey......no way
Gary Allenson....AS an interim maybe, but is this DT phase 2?
Two choices.... for me.
Tom Kelly........AM would have to do a hell of a sales pitch
or
Bobby Valentine...... he might be a guy to put boot to butt.

Thanks DT for your efforts. A class act, and stand up guy but this can not continue. Too early in the season to ride to ride out the storm.

[Pedro Cerrano]

My opinion is...
This thread is a about 98% a Frobby bandwagon. Very few were talking like this until Frobby started the thread, and most of that few were doing it for the last year. But Frobby starts a thread about firing DT and all-the-sudden people are talking about DT like he's a dead man.
.
Go back and read the OP. What pushed Frobby over the edge was DT's lack of action in the face of Julio Lugo (of all people) running out a GB out. Then, go read Frobby's follow up and the presser. Somebody asked DT about that very thing, and Frobby is appalled that DT didn't know what the questioner was referring to. Personally, I wouldn't care if Lugo disappeared from the face of the Earth and was never heard from again. But I don't think that DT's awareness of, and reaction to, something that Julio Friggin Lugo did or didn't do is compelling proof of anything. Why was DT inattentive about Lugo? Beats me. Maybe he was thinking about something else. Maybe he was numb. No way for me to know. But the idea that this incident constitutes a basis for flipping one's opinion about DT is IMO ludicrous. (Note: I am not saying that the Lugo thing is the reason Frobby is unhappy. But I am saying that, for Frobby, it is clearly the straw the broke the camel's back.)
.
Since Frobby flipped, both he and lots of other folks are talking as if DT is fine with losing, the team has given up, yada-yada. It is BS to say that DT is fine with losing. It is BS that the team has given up. The pitching staff is doing fine, the players care and are trying, and nobody is hitting. Yes, the team appears flat, but it's absurd to talk as if the team being flat in the midst of a crappy streak is somehow remarkable. To the contrary, a team being flat in the midst of a crappy street is pretty normal. I'm not recommending it, but I am saying it's ridiculous to talk is if there is something strange or unusual about a team being flat in the middle of a crappy streak. This is true regardless of whether Frobby has lost his mind or not.
.
As Frobby correctly pointed out shortly before his very abrupt fire-DT epiphany, DT is playing with half a team. Both guys with closer experience are out. The guy who was our best SP last year just got sent to Norfolk. Our 2B-man and lead-off hitter is out. Our 3B-man is out. One LF-er is out and the other one is not running right. DT is left with two-thirds of a lineup, it's like having 18 outs instead of 27. Of the other guys, most are slumping. They're not giving up, they're slumping and they're not happy about it. People who claim they're not trying to get hits, and are fine with losing, are just full of crap... and, yes, that includes Frobby if that's what he thinks.
.
What the team needs is to have some hits fall in for a couple games in a row. Once the slump stops, that will fix lots of other things. The mass opinion that's popped up here is that the way you fix things is to hold guys accountable and punish them. Anybody who thinks that's how you fix a slump is just plain ignorant. As I said elsewhere (http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2106709&postcount=18), I wish I could find the quote from Chipper Jones talking about what happens to you when you're in a slump. The idea that you fix that by punishing somebody is just a stupid idea.
.
Firing DT will not fix what's going on. Firing DT will not stop a hitting slump. Firing DT will not bring guys off the DL.
-
DT may or may not get fired. It is completely normal for managers to get fired for things that are not their fault. However, it is not completely normal for managers to get fired because Frobby says so. What is happening on this board right now is a me-too bandwagon about firing DT that *is* caused by Frobby saying so. I respect Frobby, but I don't think he deserves that kind of influence.
Now, I realize all of that does not fit on a bumpersticker, so some folks here won't like it, simply because reading is oh-so-much-work. But that's what I think is going on. Now, do I think DT should be fired now? No, I do not. I think he should have more than 3 weeks of a season when half the guys who matter are hurt. If the hitting doesn't come around fairly soon, DT may well be the one who pays the price. But doing it because Frobby lost it over a DT's response to the Lugo thing, and now suddenly wants DT's head on a plate, is absurd... and that's exactly what's happening here...

ps: Frobby has every right to want DT's head on a plate. That's not what bothers me. It's the sudden mob of copycats that bothers me.

Sounds like someone's jealous to me.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Okay, so you've identified a correlation, and based on nothing other than your (less than generous) estimation of the wits and reason of this board, decided that people are following Frobby's call to arms.

That's fine. As long as you recognize the serious limitations of your opinion.

Now, as alternatives, there are plenty of options:

(i) that there's a threshold of tolerance for ineptitude that finally got passed. Perhaps tolerance charts like a Bell curve, which means there are concentrations at points where tolerance ends. Temporal coincidence of independent reactions.

(ii) that the announcers had an influence;

(iii) that folks recognize their own irrationality and, though silent before about their frustrations, figured that Frobby's agreement vetted their feelings re: DT. I.e., Frobby is a proxy for reason. In this instance, it's not people glomming onto Frobby's perspective, but rather Frobby's late-arrival at agreement validating their already-arrived at conclusions.

Any of these are equally valid. So, what we have here is really more of a Rorschach test for posters' feelings about the ability of board members to decide for themselves these issues. I think we know where you stand.

I love this post, and I think the bolded part is especially true.

I only love the post because YOU wrote it, LuckyJim.

[Pedro Cerrano]

This whole issue is hilarious to me. There have been countless threads and/or posts about DT and his job security.

It's not like Frobby propositioned the idea of firing DT and suddenly 99% of the board decides they want to see DT fired.

That's just insane.

[TGO]

This whole issue is hilarious to me. There have been countless threads and/or posts about DT and his job security.

It's not like Frobby propositioned the idea of firing DT and suddenly 99% of the board decides they want to see DT fired.

That's just insane.

Now now, sheep don't have the ability to process what is or is not insane. Watch Babe or read Animal Farm.

Actually, don't. You can't. You don't have thumbs.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Now now, sheep don't have the ability to process what is or is not insane. Watch Babe or read Animal Farm.

Actually, don't. You can't. You don't have thumbs.

I have a kindle, biatch!

[RShack]

I love this post, and I think the bolded part is especially true.
You *like* it that he's saying people are so insecure in their own opinion that they're too cowardly to express their opinion unless Frobby comes out and gives them validity? Man, even I never said anything like that. I never even thought it either. It sounds like, um, what's that phrase? Oh, wait, I know: It sounds like dissing the whole board to me, calling people chicken, saying they need Frobby to give them the courage they don't otherwise have. Jeez...

[olehippi]

People over-reacting on OH?.....Never! Impossible! Unbelievable! :p

[Ohfan67]

Rshack -- Are you indirectly saying that overall play of the team is acceptable, but that there's just a hitting and pitching slump right now? That's what it sounds like to me.

Do you honestly not have problems with the baserunning, situational hitting, defense, etc. that happened last year and have continued this year? Or do you think that there are no problems.

I am curious, really, to know what you think about these things. You are very, very quick to defend DT and have been consistently defending the upper management of the Orioles for years. Are the problems of today all the result of Sid Thrift and the bad ole days? I really would like to better understand your point of view.

[Pedro Cerrano]

You *like* it that he's saying people are so insecure in their own opinion that they're too cowardly to express their opinion unless Frobby comes out and gives them validity? Man, even I never said anything like that. I never even thought it either. It sounds like, um, what's that phrase? Oh, wait, I know: It sounds like dissing the whole board to me, calling people chicken, saying they need Frobby to give them the courage they don't otherwise have. Jeez...

You're ignoring the fact that the bolded part completely contradicts your initial silly assessment - par for the course, RTrea.

Also I don't necessarily think that this means I'm "dissing the board" or "calling people chicken."

There are countless reasons why someone might withhold their thoughts before a thread like this none of which involve being "chicken" to post on an anonymous message board.

My, what a silly supposition.

[Pedro Cerrano]

BTW Shack, I hope you don't think I'm jumping on you just because everyone else is. I only discovered what was going on here a little bit ago.

I swear.

[RShack]

Rshack -- Are you indirectly saying that overall play of the team is acceptable, but that there's just a hitting and pitching slump right now? That's what it sounds like to me.

Do you honestly not have problems with the baserunning, situational hitting, defense, etc. that happened last year and have continued this year? Or do you think that there are no problems.

I am curious, really, to know what you think about these things. You are very, very quick to defend DT and have been consistently defending the upper management of the Orioles for years. Are the problems of today all the result of Sid Thrift and the bad ole days? I really would like to better understand your point of view.
I think some things suck now, but not everything. I think the pitching is actually doing great, when you consider the fact that last year's best SP just got shipped to Norfolk and that both guys who have closer experience are out. The problem is the position players. They're not holding up their part, they know it, they're pressing, and they're doing stupid stuff. That's what slumps do. I think that a few games of hits falling in will fix a whole lot of what's wrong. It won't fix the DL problems, but it will fix a lot. Meanwhile, I don't think changing managers will either cure injuries or end slumps. Other people seem to think it will, I have no idea why they think that, but they do. I don't.

[Lucky Jim]

You *like* it that he's saying people are so insecure in their own opinion that they're too cowardly to express their opinion unless Frobby comes out and gives them validity? Man, even I never said anything like that. I never even thought it either. It sounds like, um, what's that phrase? Oh, wait, I know: It sounds like dissing the whole board to me, calling people chicken, saying they need Frobby to give them the courage they don't otherwise have. Jeez...

It's interesting that you don't seem to get what I'm saying. We all have points where our rationality is bounded. Knowing that, and holding it in check, is part of being an adult. It's not cowardice to use an objective check on your own irrationality. In fact, it makes a ton of sense.

I may have a quick trigger on a subject, and be ready to move on incomplete or insufficient information. Knowing this, I resist moving. If a cooler head comes along, one not prone to the same quick trigger, a bit down the road, confirming my viewpoint, then it makes sense that I'd re-assess my position.

You're right about one thing. I'm dissing the entire board. For being human. And possessing the inherent and intrinsic issues with bounded rationality that all humans possess.

Mea culpa.

[RShack]

BTW Shack, I hope you don't think I'm jumping on you just because everyone else is. I only discovered what was going on here a little bit ago.

I swear.
I don't have grudges, except for the very, very rare occasion when somebody insists on being a destructive moron, and I don't think you're up to anything except saying what you think, that's all. I realize that swimming against the tide around here means that various folks take pot-shots at you. But it's just a dang message board, it's not like we're in a fox hole with people shooting bullets.

Plus, sometimes it's funny. For example, I got neg-repped by somebody who's name I won't mention who said that Frobby told him to do it. Since that particular person seems to mainly rely on SG to tell him what to think, I viewed that as a case of him broadening his horizons ;-)

[RShack]

It's interesting that you don't seem to get what I'm saying. We all have points where our rationality is bounded. Knowing that, and holding it in check, is part of being an adult. It's not cowardice to use an objective check on your own irrationality. In fact, it makes a ton of sense.

I may have a quick trigger on a subject, and be ready to move on incomplete or insufficient information. If a cooler head comes along, one not prone to the same quick trigger, a bit down the road, confirming my viewpoint, then it makes sense that I'd re-assess my position.

You're right about one thing. I'm dissing the entire board. For being human. And possessing the inherent and intrinsic issues with bounded rationality that all humans possess.

Mea culpa. I agree that using phrases like "bounded rationality" sounds good, but what are you really saying? Are you saying that they had an opinion but were afraid to say it publicly until Frobby provided cover? Or are you saying they didn't know what their opinion was until they saw what Frobby's opinion was? Or are you saying it's some of both?

[Frobby]

I guarantee this thread has been read all over the Warehouse today... and probably has got the attention of some because it was Frobby that started the thread.

If I believed that the Warehouse thought my opinion mattered, I'd start a thread about having dancing girls between innings. :p

Actually, that reminds me, remember when they used to have girls in hot pants run out and sweep the bases? Until I wrote the sentence above, I don't think I had ever noticed when that stopped. When did it? It's probably been 15 years or more.

[trk001]

Actually, that reminds me, remember when they used to have girls in hot pants run out and sweep the bases? Until I wrote the sentence above, I don't think I had ever noticed when that stopped. When did it? It's probably been 15 years or more.

Wait, we used to have girls in hot pants? Why are we even discussing Dave Trembley when there's a matter of this importance at hand?

When do we get the hot pants back?

[TGO]

If I believed that the Warehouse thought my opinion mattered, I'd start a thread about having dancing girls between innings. :p

Actually, that reminds me, remember when they used to have girls in hot pants run out and sweep the bases? Until I wrote the sentence above, I don't think I had ever noticed when that stopped. When did it? It's probably been 15 years or more.

Are you positive you didn't just dream this? ;)

I don't remember it but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Did we have them at Camden Yards?

[Lucky Jim]

I agree that using phrases like "bounded rationality" sounds good, but what are you really saying? Are you saying that they had an opinion but were afraid to say it publicly until Frobby provided cover? Or are you saying they didn't know what their opinion was until they saw what Frobby's opinion was? Or are you saying it's some of both?

I'm not saying either.

I'm saying that someone may feel that something is true but know they also have a tendency to jump the gun and arrive at that conclusion before information is either complete and/or sufficient. As a result, they may wait for a more considered opinion to come along before they express that opinion as a way of not letting uninformed passions spill over into the dialogue.

For instnce, I may go nuts at the first bit of information regarding some hot button political issue. But I may also know that my irrational hatred for some politician/administration means that my trigger is too quick. And so, in a forum where reasoned dialogue is allegedly supposed to prevail, I keep my unreason on the backburner.

But, when a more moderate interpreter, with more information (because information accrues over time), steps forward with a similar critique based on that information, then I can honestly say that there's an objective check on my irrationality that may no longer be necessary.

It's not about knowing what your own opinion is. It's not about being a coward. It's about knowing that opinions are always based on limited information, and one's own limitations in sorting and sifting through that information.

Wouldn't you prefer if JTrea kept his yap shut sometimes until a more reasoned perspective (say, a post by 1970 or Drungo) aligned with his perspective? Wouldn't this place be better if people put governors on their posting until a certain threshold of information had been passed?

[Frobby]

Wait, we used to have girls in hot pants? Why are we even discussing Dave Trembley when there's a matter of this importance at hand?

When do we get the hot pants back?


Are you positive you didn't just dream this? ;)

I don't remember it but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Did we have them at Camden Yards?

I'm quite sure. While the grounds crew was sweeping the infield dirt between innings, these girls would run out, sweep off the bases and then sweep the shoes of one of the players (Brooks, if I recall). It went on for quite a few years.

[TGO]

I'm quite sure. While the grounds crew was sweeping the infield dirt between innings, these girls would run out, sweep off the bases and then sweep the shoes of one of the players (Brooks, if I recall). It went on for quite a few years.

I know the Phillies had the Hot Pants Patrol back in the 1970s, but they acted as ushers. And the feminist outcry finally did them in in the early 1980s. I would be surprised if the O's had something like what you're describing in the last 30 years (yes, it's been 30 years since 1980 now ;)).

[rochester]

I'm quite sure. While the grounds crew was sweeping the infield dirt between innings, these girls would run out, sweep off the bases and then sweep the shoes of one of the players (Brooks, if I recall). It went on for quite a few years.

Yea Baltimore had them (IIRC many did) in the 1970's. Maybe THAT'S what this team needs.

[Frobby]

Yea Baltimore had them (IIRC many did) in the 1970's. Maybe THAT'S what this team needs.

I've started another thread about this -- it is far too important to be buried here! ;)

[MemorialStadKid]

This is one of the funniest discussions in the history of the OH.

Frobby seems cool. I like what he has to say.

He's never influenced me or my positions.

I just wish more people would stand up against the ebb and flow of opinion here instead of waiting for someone else to post their thoughts.

It ain't easy, but its necessary.

MSK

[Lucky Jim]

This is one of the funniest discussions in the history of the OH.

Frobby seems cool. I like what he has to say.

He's never influenced me or my positions.

I just wish more people would stand up against the ebb and flow of opinion here instead of waiting for someone else to post their thoughts.

It ain't easy, but its necessary.

MSK

I wish more people would realize that not all of their thoughts are worth posting.

[Boy Howdy]

I don't think I've ever qualified for the wacko, anti-Trembley fringe. In fact, I like the guy and offer him my full support as long as he's employed as skipper of the Orioles.

That said, I would have canned him after last year if I'd been Andy MacPhail, and I remember saying so in the thread after Kevin Cowherd's "Bring Back Trembley Makes No Sense" article last fall.

If he's ousted, I won't get any pleasure, but it's hard for me to work up much indignation about it either. After all, Trembley's .404 "winning" percentage as Orioles skipper bests only Jimmy Dykes (who managed the 1954 team that was the St. Louis Browns) & Cal Ripken, Sr (who got canned a mere SIX GAMES into the 1988 debacle!!)

16 guys in history have been able to manage the Orioles, and 10 of them got fewer games to distinguish themselves than Trembley's already been allowed: Cal Ripken, Sr, Sam Perlozzo, Phil Regan, Ray Miller, Lee Mazzilli, Davey Johnson, Billy Hitchcock, Lum Harris, Jimmy Dykes & Joe Altobelli.

The only Orioles skippers who remained on the job longer than Dave Trembley are Earl Weaver, Hank Bauer, Mike Hargrove, Johnny Oates & Frank Robinson.

[RShack]

Are you positive you didn't just dream this? ;)

I don't remember it but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Did we have them at Camden Yards?
Oh, he's right about it. She was somewhat of a mini-celebrity... although they didn't pay her squat... blond, pretty and athletic... there was an ump named Emmett Ashford who she'd always swat in the rear with her broom, and he played along and hammed it up... he was much better at being a good sport about that than he was at being an ump...

[NewMarketSean]

Even though people were calling for DT's head after the Toronto sweep, and even moreso after the TB sweep, I still think that Frobby makes it somewhat OK to think that DT is a lost cause at this point.

Remember when Frobby talked about the season not being official until Jim Rice lead the league in hitting?

It's not time to call for a manager to be fired until Frobby says it is.

[Frobby]

Remember when Frobby talked about the season not being official until Jim Rice lead the league in hitting?

It's not time to call for a manager to be fired until Frobby says it is.

Rod Carew, not Jim Rice. So maybe it's Tony-OH, not Frobby. ;)

[amateurfan]

I wish more people would realize that not all of their thoughts are worth posting.

I'm sure all of us, wouldn't you admit, have stated things here that should not have been. :)

[Scrat1]

I'm sure all of us, wouldn't you admit, have stated things here that should not have been. :)

If I followed this line of thinking, I wouldn't have anything to post at all. Someone has to contribute irrational white noise in order for other posters to look better.

[Lucky Jim]

I'm sure all of us, wouldn't you admit, have stated things here that should not have been. :)

No doubt.

Letters.

[JTrea81]

Even though people were calling for DT's head after the Toronto sweep, and even moreso after the TB sweep, I still think that Frobby makes it somewhat OK to think that DT is a lost cause at this point.

Remember when Frobby talked about the season not being official until Jim Rice lead the league in hitting?

It's not time to call for a manager to be fired until Frobby says it is.

I'm sorry but I am not going to let one poster dictate how I should think.

Trembley should have been gone after last season, and anybody who thought differently was blinded by their loyalty to Trembley IMO.

I think people obviously wanted Dave to succeed because he was a charismatic guy, because he toiled in the minors for so many years, and because they were sick of the manager merry-go round.

He was a feel good story. And everybody likes to root for a feel-good story. But the problem is Trembley simply doesn't have what it takes at the ML level. He doesn't have what it takes to win, and he and his staff are holding the Orioles back.

The bottom line is that you need to ask yourself - do you want to feel good, or do you want to win?

It's time the Orioles start to think about winning, more than feel good stories, and they should be doing everything they can now to win games.

Baseball is a business, and it's all about winning games. It may be cruel, but there's a reason there are only 30 ML managers out there.

[clapdiddy]

I wish more people would realize that not all of their thoughts are worth posting.
Classic.

humalababylazeezeelabop.

[Frobby]

I'm sorry but I am not going to let one poster dictate how I should think.

Or even 99.99% of posters. :D

Nor should you. I certainly don't come to this board hoping that everyone will agree with what I say. I come here to see what other posters have to say, or how they react to something I said.

As to the rest of your post, at the end of last year I was agnostic on whether we should keep Trembley, depending on what MacPhail thought. That wasn't because of blind loyalty to Trembley, I just feel he has a lot of good attributes as a manager and deserved the opportunity if his GM felt he was right for the team. If the team was 5-10 right now, I'd probably still feel that way. But I'm not willing to see 2010 go into free fall without doing something to try to stop it.

[Lucky Jim]

I'm sorry but I am not going to let one poster dictate how I should think.

Trembley should have been gone after last season, and anybody who thought differently was blinded by their loyalty to Trembley IMO.

Well, when your universe of ideas fits on the head of a pin (i.e., "anybody who thought differently was blinded by their loyalty," and couldn't possibily have thought so for any other reason) of course you're not going to let one poster dictate how you should think. There's not room for one other perspective.

By the way, for most folks, a three-story row home is better than a studio apartment.

[Ohfan67]

I think some things suck now, but not everything. I think the pitching is actually doing great, when you consider the fact that last year's best SP just got shipped to Norfolk and that both guys who have closer experience are out. The problem is the position players. They're not holding up their part, they know it, they're pressing, and they're doing stupid stuff. That's what slumps do. I think that a few games of hits falling in will fix a whole lot of what's wrong. It won't fix the DL problems, but it will fix a lot. Meanwhile, I don't think changing managers will either cure injuries or end slumps. Other people seem to think it will, I have no idea why they think that, but they do. I don't.

So do you not agree with criticisms of the team for poor baserunning, sloppy defense, etc.? To many those are recurring issues that can be related to coaching (when widespread and recurring). In my opinion, the Orioles have played sloppy baseball for over a full season. So do you see this fundamentally different than most of the other posters?

[RShack]

Well, when your universe of ideas fits on the head of a pin (i.e., "anybody who thought differently was blinded by their loyalty," and couldn't possibily have thought so for any other reason) of course you're not going to let one poster dictate how you should think. There's not room for one other perspective.

By the way, for most folks, a three-story row home is better than a studio apartment.
You said "row home" instead of "townhouse"... so my opinion of you just went up ;-)