Tillman's Gem Today

[justD]

From Jeff Zrebiec at Orioles Insider (http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/2010/07/tillman_pitches_gem.html):


...In the Tides' 2-0 victory over Charlotte [today], Tillman pitched a complete-game, one-hit shutout.

He allowed just two baserunners in the 99-pitch masterpiece and both were Jordan Danks who singled and then walked. That was the extent of the Knights' offense. Tillman struck out five in the game.

I thought I'd read sometime last week that Griffin (I think) had told Chris that he should just relax for a while regarding outcomes, and just go back to working on that cutter-like pitch to add to his arsenal. If he's still having this kind of success while trying to master that, this is very encouraging IMO. Does anyone know if that approach to his triple-A tenure is still in effect?


Edit: Okay, I just found this thread (http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99429) from last Wednesday. Looks like he's definitely still working on it, and wow, pretty impressive results! Nice...

[Who's On 1st]

Nice game today!

I just don't know why he can't seem to get it together this year in the Bigs.

[Ohfan67]

How can he be so dominating at AAA at his age and look so bad in Baltimore?

[ThisIsOurHouse]

He's doing the whole Homer Bailey thing, where he dominates AAA but can't get it together at the bigs. He is not in AAA to get good results, I want to see an imporvement of stuff and command. He needs movement on his fastball and he needs to keep it low in the zone, if he does not do this then he will get punished at OPACY and AL East opponents.

[OhioOriole]

I'm told Tillman did throw some cutters and two-seam fastballs, two pitches he's been working on, and his cutter was pretty good.

Posted by Jeff Zrebiec

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/2010/07/tillman_pitches_gem.html

OhioOriole

[QBsILLEST1]

How can he be so dominating at AAA at his age and look so bad in Baltimore?

Well, one reason is that it seems that his stuff wasn't good in his recent 2 starts. When you have such a small sample size, things like that can have a major effect. Reportedly, he was looking like his old self in his last start, this start I am not sure what his stuff looked like, but you'd assume it was looking good. I am still however not content with his amount of K's this year, but his work in progress cutter I am sure has something to do with that.....

[JTrea81]

Keep raising that trade value...

[Hank Scorpio]

If Tillman can get his two seamer to the point where he's comfortable with it, watch out. It'll make his circle change that much more effective b/c they typically have the same spin.

[eb45]

Like others I'm sure, I was more hoping that his cutter and 2-seamer looked good than that he didn't allow many runs. Apparently we got both, plus him going deep in the game and still looking good.

[olehippi]

This news actually has me a little excited about Tillman again. If he can master the 2-seamer and/or a cutter to go with his changeup, he could become dominant at the ML level, too.

[Ohfan67]

If you are talking about his stuff... I disagree with the premise, but fine.

If you are talking about results, you are talking about 12 starts last year as a 21 year old, and 4 starts this year at age 22.

Expecting some type of dominating consistency at the Major League level at these ages is hard to understand.

Huh? How can you disagree with the "premise"? He's dominated AAA and looked like a batting practice pitcher in Baltimore.

[Scrat1]

Keep raising that trade value...

The monomania continues.

[accinfo]

I believe in the guy, and see lots to like beyond his age and numbers in the Minors. I wish the O's, and Oriole fans (not necessarily you) were more willing to watch Tillman get an extended run of starts at the Major League level. Instead of looking at each of his starts, sit-back a bit and watch the starts in terms of months (or even a year or two) at a time. Basically where you sat back and looked for improvement and greater consistency month-to-month, and year-to-year.


Getting past all of that, we will continue to look for reports on his velocity / movement, and his fastball command. Will continue to look for reports on his use of the 2 seamer, and perhaps the cutter.

I agreed with everything you said in your post however I disagree that the Orioles can let him have starts as bad as he did the last one he had in the major leagues. When you are throwing only 88/89 when you know he can do better he was either aiming the ball, (which is what probably was happening), or he has an injury that he isn't admitting. He threw batting practice that evening. It would have been different if it was just a command issue. You could let him work that out but he was getting crushed. I wouldn't have had a problem of letting him work it out in the bullpen. Maybe he wouldn't have held back and figured it out. I think they felt they had to convince him that he needed to work on these other pitches to get major league hitters and they sent him down to do so. It also may have taken Tillman to get crushed like he did to listen to instruction. Some times 22 years old's who have had the success he had don't take criticism very well. Man I hope your faith in him proves 100% correct. I just think in this instance the Orioles are doing the right thing. I also don't think it hurts to have two of the better pitching prospects in baseball on the same AAA team kind of competing against each other for the big prize.

We as fans can't wait to get all these prospects up and hopefully doing well so we can get back to watching winning baseball. Unfortunately you can't just stick them all in the lineup and they will learn everything they need to be successful. Some will do better then others. It doesn't mean the ones who don't, won't eventually figure it out. It just maybe on a different time schedule. Patience is a virtue.

[Sports Guy]

65% of his pitches for strikes..10 ground outs...9 flyballs.

Would love to know how much he is missing bats.

[Frobby]

Huh? How can you disagree with the "premise"? He's dominated AAA and looked like a batting practice pitcher in Baltimore.

I don't agree he's looked like a BP pitcher in Baltimore. He's had two decent starts (5.2 IP, 2 ER and 6 IP, 2 ER) and two bad ones. Not much of an audition, in my opinion. The next time he is called up, the O's need to commit to him for a while instead of yanking him around like a yo-yo.

[crowmst3k!]

If he can master a power two-seam, and use it routinely to induce ground balls, then he could have the cieling of a Roy Halladay type.

Halladay had to totally rework his delivery and repitoire before becoming an effective MLB pitcher. His development of a power sinker was the difference between a being a AAAA guy and an ace.

From Wikipedia:

Halladay's fastball was clocked up to 95 miles per hour (153 km/h), but it had little movement, and his pitches were up in the strike zone, which was ultimately the reason why his 2000 season was so unsuccessful. He worked with former Blue Jays pitching coach Mel Queen. The problem, Queen realized, was Halladay’s total reliance on his strength—his attempt to overpower batters with straight-ahead pitches. Within two weeks, Halladay had altered his arm angle for a more deceptive delivery, and added pitches that sank and careened.[5] Instead of throwing over the top, he chose to use a three-quarters delivery (the middle point between throwing overhand and sidearm). Originally a fastball pitcher, he became reliant on keeping his pitches low across the plate, regardless of the type of pitch thrown. The adjustments proved successful. After a month and a half, he was promoted to class AA Tennessee, and a month later, to class AAA Syracuse. By mid-season, he was back in the Blue Jays’ rotation. He posted a 5–3 win–loss record with a 3.19 ERA for the Blue Jays in 16 starts in 2001.


That sounds VERY familiar.

[bigelow]

I can disagree with the premise, because I did not have flawed expectations of what to be looking for in a 21 year old pitcher ascending to the Majors for the first-time. Or expect that now that he was 22 that he would now be consistent in each of his 4 starts. (He was competitive in 2 of the starts, and horrible in 2 others.)

I do not mean the above to come across as snide as it does. You are obviously entitled to your opinion, and many on this board share it (including the opinions of plenty of people I respect).

Some of the things I am sure you saw and disliked (his inconsistent velocity and movement, his pitching up in the zone, and unwillingness to regularly challenge hitters or use his change-up, and his problems with finishing a hitter off once ahead) were things I saw as well.

I also saw repeatable mechanics, a guy capable of muscling-up and hitting 93-94 on the black. I saw a guy with a developing change, and a curve that could become devastating. I saw a guy that was pitching last 9/11 in NY with Jeter trying to set a franchise record for hits. I saw him get knocked around in the first, but finding the poise to provide a quality start and keep his team in the game. I saw him pitch a game in Toronto where he had nothing (to the point people questioned his health due his extremely minimal velocity) and again keep the O's in the game.

I believe in the guy, and see lots to like beyond his age and numbers in the Minors. I wish the O's, and Oriole fans (not necessarily you) were more willing to watch Tillman get an extended run of starts at the Major League level. Instead of looking at each of his starts, sit-back a bit and watch the starts in terms of months (or even a year or two) at a time. Basically where you sat back and looked for improvement and greater consistency month-to-month, and year-to-year.


Getting past all of that, we will continue to look for reports on his velocity / movement, and his fastball command. Will continue to look for reports on his use of the 2 seamer, and perhaps the cutter.

Thank you for typing this. Most well written report i have seen on Tillman and my exact thoughts. I gotta say i was not happy his last start or two in the big leagues when his velocity dipped. Besides that i like the delivery, I like the velocity and most of all i love the curveball. Good to see tonights start and hope it brings confidence.

[pacman59]

For me one of the best stories of the year is the willingness of Britton to work on his pitches as opposed to his stats.

While only time will tell, it seems to me that is what the minors are all about. And it is certainly encouraging that the work he has done is starting to show up in the box score.

If Tillman takes the same approach I think it will go a long way in making him a ML pitcher.

There will always be a learning curve in the majors, but the key to player development is molding the players natural abilities into a game that will be successful at the highest level.

[Ohfan67]

I don't agree he's looked like a BP pitcher in Baltimore. He's had two decent starts (5.2 IP, 2 ER and 6 IP, 2 ER) and two bad ones. Not much of an audition, in my opinion. The next time he is called up, the O's need to commit to him for a while instead of yanking him around like a yo-yo.

You're right that I sounded too negative about Tillman's performance at the ML level. I didn't really mean for it to sound so strong.

I was trying to express my curiosity and frustration about why Tillman can perform so well at AAA at such a young age and then perform as poorly as he did in his stint with the O's. And he did look like a BP pitcher in his last start as he got shelled while taking something off his fastballs to get them over the plate. Even in the 5.2 IP game that you cite above he was very fortunate not to get creamed (8 hits, 3 walks, and 2 HR's in 5.2 IP with 3k's). Yes, small sample sizes and all that goes with it, but we have seen few glimpses of the incredibly young AAA stud that seems to take the mound in International League games. It would be nice and reassuring to see flashes of effective aggressiveness from Tillman. Maybe we did last year and I'm just forgetting. Again, I'm not trying to be down on Tillman and he's obviously very talented. I guess I'm just worried and frustrated that he seems like a different pitcher in Norfolk than he is in Baltimore. Of course I expect lots of growing pains from young, developing pitchers, etc., but it would be very nice to see a couple of dominating innings in a ML start or a complete ML start that makes you say "a ha! that's the Tillman we've been waiting for".

And yes I agree that if the organization feels good about his new pitches then they should promote him for the rest of the season. If he needs to work on the new pitches at AAA a little longer, then so be it.

[Say O!]

At what point do you bring Tillman up, regardless of space in the rotation? Stick him in the bullpen, have him come out and throw 3-innings at a time and learn to get MLB hitters out.

[Frobby]

You're right that I sounded too negative about Tillman's performance at the ML level. I didn't really mean for it to sound so strong.

I was trying to express my curiosity and frustration about why Tillman can perform so well at AAA at such a young age and then perform as poorly as he did in his stint with the O's. And he did look like a BP pitcher in his last start as he got shelled while taking something off his fastballs to get them over the plate. Even in the 5.2 IP game that you cite above he was very fortunate not to get creamed (8 hits, 3 walks, and 2 HR's in 5.2 IP with 3k's). Yes, small sample sizes and all that goes with it, but we have seen few glimpses of the incredibly young AAA stud that seems to take the mound in International League games. It would be nice and reassuring to see flashes of effective aggressiveness from Tillman. Maybe we did last year and I'm just forgetting. Again, I'm not trying to be down on Tillman and he's obviously very talented. I guess I'm just worried and frustrated that he seems like a different pitcher in Norfolk than he is in Baltimore. Of course I expect lots of growing pains from young, developing pitchers, etc., but it would be very nice to see a couple of dominating innings in a ML start or a complete ML start that makes you say "a ha! that's the Tillman we've been waiting for".

And yes I agree that if the organization feels good about his new pitches then they should promote him for the rest of the season. If he needs to work on the new pitches at AAA a little longer, then so be it.

I understand and agree with your frustration. I personally don't believe that the difference between AAA and the majors is so dramatic that a pitcher should have a 2.70 ERA over 31 AAA starts in two seasons and yet have a 5.96 ERA in the majors, or an 8.1 K/9 in AAA but 5.2 in the majors. Yes, Harbor Park is not OPACY and the hitters are not the same, but Tillman really ought to be able to do better than he has done at the major league level.

[Stotle]

As I posted when Britton had a nice start against the club -- keep in mind Charlotte is a free-swinging group that is more likely to bad-ball swing than the average International League squad. Not to take away from Tillman's performance, it was very encouraging. But still need to see him string together strong starts. Agree with Frobby's post, above, in all respects.